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User:SchroCat and User:Cassianto

READY FOR FORMAL CLOSURE

This apparent tag team has turned uncivility into a habit. As they have shadowed and dittoed one another's edits when attacking an editor like me or others, the team label seems appropriate.

They do this primarily on talk pages, and a review of their style of comments will show a continual and long-term misuse of talk pages for making personal attacks, boastfully assuming bad faith, and generally engaging in discussions in an uncivil manner, all of which amount to disruptive editing.

In reviewing, please also note that while PAs, etc. are frequent, there is never a counter-attack or reason to attack an editor to begin with. It's simply their method of discourse which has become so expected that I usually ignore them. However, their most recent comments on Peter Sellers talk has been noted with disgust by a new editor to the article, User:Wordreader, who wrote, "I find the comments of SchroCat and Cassianto to be disparaging and rude." I personally am embarrassed that WP is shown in such a poor light.

For the record, while I'm posting this issue, I don't expect any censure of any sort against them. Their blatant PAs have appeared on talk pages with hundreds of watchers and many long-term wikipedians also commenting, and most seem to cower and say nothing, effectively giving their PA style tacit approval.

Just a few the diffs from various talk pages.

Peter Sellers talk

1. diff 9/2014
2. diff 9/2014
3. diff 9/2014
4. diff 6/2013
5. diff 7/2013
6. diff 8/2012
7. diff 8/2012

Stanley Kubrick talk

• diff 8/2014

Charlie Chaplin talk

• diff 11/2013

Light show (talk) 06:35, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Lightshow, you have engaged in endless sniping during the Sellers re-write—sniping that has lasted from mid-2012 to date—and managed to turn the work on the Sellers article into the most unpleasant editing experience I have experienced on Wiki, and you are the one that has managed to suck the joy out of that process. Your behaviour on the article has been so bad that a topic ban has been mooted here more than once.

This is yet another re-hash of a previous visit to ANI (see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive252#Request to censure personal attacks and harassment re: Peter Sellers article which was quickly dismissed, as was Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive776#Request review of personal attacks. A trawl through the Sellers talk page will show everything from Lightshow/Wikiwatcher's abuse to passive-aggressive sniping that merits a topic ban on Sellers. Requests for him to take Sellers off his Watchlist have proved fruitless, and a ban might be the best way forward here.

Finally Lightshow, numerous people commenting against you isn't tag teaming: it's people disagreeing with you, based on the fact that you're not a very good editor. – SchroCat (talk) 08:29, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Dare I say it, but I agree with my fellow tag-teamer. From the moment we touched upon Sellers to this very day, Lightshow has done nothing but condemn, snipe, and criticise all the hard work that we have put into it. We have taken Sellers from the lowly depths of C-class to the heights of FA which Lightshow disagrees with; he/she has done nothing in terms of helping with the articles development. Instead, they keep the article on their watch-list hoping that one day, someone will come along who is as like-minded as they are and join their "this article is shit" gang. Until then, every time a new editor comes to the page with a question, Lightshow seizes upon the opportunity to bad mouth the article and the two of us. Frankly this ANI is pretty wasted, but nothing unusual as this is always how dealing with them ends up. Pathetic! Cassianto^talk 08:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Gentlemen, your PA phrasings and word choices have become so similar and repetitious, I'd like to suggest a new one you can freely use with my full approval: Sucker. When you first started editing Sellers, you both honestly had me going for a while, with Schrocat writing friendly notes like:

"Hi WW, Sorry for taking so long to get back to you - a brief holiday intervened! I think the article is broadly OK, but it doesn't hang together well at the moment—I think because of the alterations of passing editors. The overall structure is also broadly OK, although we need a few tweaks ("Acting technique and preparation" is in the middle of the chronological run through of his life, for example). I suggest that most of what is already there remains and the following structure is used (please let me know if you have any better ideas—this is just an initial suggestion!)"

I assumed your intentions were positive. That was then, this is now. And now you can freely call me "sucker." --Light show (talk) 09:08, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it was friendly: I always am when there is a receptive editor to deal with. Unfortunately you did not prove to be amenable to the development and improvement of the article, and attempted to block every change, edit warring and running spurious RfCs to hamper every step. The RfCs were largely rejected out of hand, and numerous editors advised you to drop the stick, but all to no avail. After such a campaign of negativity, even a saint's patience would have evaporated by now. - SchroCat (talk) 09:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Troll elsewhere:your endless bitching and sniping is deep in the territory of tedium, and your toxic rumblings have done nothing positive to this article. You are too bitter about your ownership being swamped by losing in nearly every single RfC you started to ever see anything positive here, and you make yourself look more and more ridiculous every time you post another of your pointless messages, so do yourself a favour and take this off your Watchlist and move on. - User:SchroCat 08:16, 4 September 2014 (UTC) That's not cool no matter what the provocation. If you're that angry step away before typing, regardless of whether you think you're "right".__ E L A Q U E A T E 11:22, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Neither is two years of trolling, bitching and sniping, but let's just gloss over that behaviour. FWIW, I stand by every word, as it is true, justified and entirely correct. I'll also add that I wasn't angry at all: it was written while I was extremely calm, and is an honest straightforward appraisal of this editors approach both on the Sellers page and elsewhere. – SchroCat (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

This editor appears to be engaged in a form of Wikihounding of those who he either disagrees with or won't let him have his own way, despite rules or consensus. He seems obsessed with the Peter Sellers article and the talk page history shows his many RFCs when that doesn't happen. Here we have one started at Mike Todd over the photo he placed in the infobox. The Sellers obsession is everywhere; up it comes at the Red Skelton talk page.

Those of us who don't agree with him become a Wikimafia in his opinion. From the article sandbox he started: "Obvious problems: You have greatly expanded a clear and brief paragraph into six separate topics, mostly film-related trivia, divided below, all jumbled into one hodge-podge paragraph. Which, btw, is exactly how the demolition of Sellers began. Note also that another editor has joined your team by now tagging the lead image." The infobox photo was a copyvio. He's been unwelome at my talk page since an exchange in March over a Commons-deleted photo ruled to be a copyvio.

As for his complaints about incivility, This comment "BTW, your math is about 3,000% off, since it's closer to 5K at most. Guess math wasn't your favrit subject either, huh doc?" to User:Dr. Blofeld is taunting and rude, yet he's crying about civility. Let's close this misuse of ANI and hope this editor will finally learn how to work congenially with everyone else.We hope (talk) 13:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, in the spirit of congeniality, I'm not sure I ever thanked you for getting me blocked from the Commons, investigated with your CCI, and for tirelessly tagging hundreds of recently uploaded public domain images, currently used for leads or body, with large red warning signs. --Light show (talk) 16:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

To refresh your memory and for the edification of everyone else This is how you got blocked from Commons. We hope (talk) 16:57, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Your off topic Lightshow. Leave others alone and concentrate on trying to get me and my tag-teamer blocked. Cassianto^talk 16:54, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

It was We hope that decided to join in with his image issues, not me. Nor am I concerned with getting anyone blocked, since you're both obviously immune from even mild censure or criticism. This is a notice board, and it's worth noticing the level of arrogance that has become acceptable. --Light show (talk) 17:11, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I urge an admin to close this thread asap, obviously there is no action to be taken against Schro and Cass in light of the circumstances.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

In my experience both users indeed act like a tag team, often together with two other editors. The Banner talk 19:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, my other favourite editor how lovely to see you Banner. Cassianto^talk 20:03, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Can someone co-propose and hopefully support an IBAN here, as I tried to do on Kubrick's talk page? The same three editors, SchroCat, Cassianto, and DrBlofeld, as can be see on Sellers talk, are creating an atmosphere for new editors that does not invite collaboration or goodwill. My proposal to self-impose an IBAN is being ignored. The three editors, I've already pointed out, blitz-edit, comment, and perpetuate uncivililty in an identical team manner, and mock what they know is unacceptable talk page behavior, for example. We don't need to turn away more new editors, we need to attract them. --Light show (talk) 17:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: Ban User:Light show from editing at the Peter Sellers article

Some of the above comments look pretty bad taken out of context, but entirely understandable when this haranguing has been going on for two years and I think this situation needs some resolution. After SchroCat and Cassianto put considerable effort into taking this article to FA standard (which they successfully steered through an FA review), Light show (under a previous user name) proposed junking all their effort and putting the article back to its C-class version: Talk:Peter Sellers/Archive 2#Is this "Feature Article" incomprehensible?. Now, I think it's fair to say that anyone who sincerely believes that junking an FA rated article is in the best interests of that article probably has nothing more to contribute in a positive way. Therefore I propose an article-ban for Light show: the article, SchroCat, Cassianto and Light show himself would all be better off if they didn't interact any more at that particular article. SchroCat and Cassianto are the ones that got the article promoted so they are best placed to stay and maintain it. Betty Logan (talk) 19:38, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. 19:38, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Non-issue: As Schro-Cass has/have prevented me from adding so much as a comma over the last few years, putting up a no-trespassing sign when the article is already ringed with barbed wire, will add nothing. As the proposer has, in their comment at the link above, accused me of somehow reprogramming Wikimedia and gaming user feedback, I'm not sure their good faith is clear in their proposal. --Light show (talk) 19:51, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

@Betty. It's not just the Peter Sellers article though Light show has kicked up a fuss about, it's other articles on film biographies any one of us has been involved with. But all were motivated by the Sellers vendetta he has and it is indeed the Sellers article which creates the bulk of his comments still. An interaction ban banning Light show from editing or discussing any film biographical article primarily written by myself, Schro or Cass would be more appropriate. I support of course, but I fear a ban on just Sellers will prompt petty responses on other articles. I 'd suggest a full interaction ban.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support What Dr. Blofeld has said. The insult difs above took place on the Stanley Kubrick talk page and the sandbox the editor started. While the basis for this is the Peter Sellers article, that rancor has been spread around by him. We hope (talk) 21:01, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Lightshow, to say anyone has stopped you changing a comma is an untruth. It's also an untruth for you to say that Betty Logan has accused you of anything: she provided you with an explanation regarding the feedback, not accused you of anything. Sadly the two untruths here are just the latest in a string of mud-throwing from you, where you a unable to accept that anyone who disagrees with you on Sellers is part of some massive tag-team. It's time for the community to stop your interaction on the Sellers talk page. - SchroCat (talk) 20:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support, needless to say. Lightshow has shown himself to be a thoroughly difficult editor to work with. I'm sure he does some good somewhere, so for that reason I think a full on block is not justified, but I think the ban as proposed above is a great comprise. Lightshow needs to let this one go and accept that the C-class Sellers is a long and distant memory. He also made things difficult for the FA nominator's on Charles Chaplin, but that is a different article altogether. Move on with your wiki-life, for god's sake! Cassianto^talk 21:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on this article and a broader one one should anyone propose it. A read of the relevant talk pages shows a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality that makes editing by other members of the community an unpleasant task to say the least. MarnetteD|Talk 21:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• I think waiting for some neutral editors to review and comment is required, since the editors above, excluding MarnetteD, have in some way, repeatedly attacked the editor, his edits, comments or uploads. There is no way to assume their neutrality. It's also worth noting how the original ANI against their PAs has digressed and been hijacked so easily into blocking the complaining editor. The message is that guidelines about civility, including not using PAs, can be ignored. --Light show (talk) 21:20, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

this-"I'm glad you found a buddy to cover for you, but this will go to ANI if you can't get over your erroneous edits." and this-"Before posting there, let me know if you've used or are using different usernames, since socks are an exemption to 3RR, and your arrogant style of discourse and warring methods are too similar to previous events." is civility? We hope (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The request, yet unanswered, was reasonable. Unlike this comment, from one of the above team members. And my mentioning his soliciting support there, was also fine. --Light show (talk) 21:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Although I would expand this to include the talk page, as that's where much of the conflict between the three has happened. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support – I concur with Crisco 1492 and the earlier editors supporting the proposed ban. I have not previously encountered Lightshow, but the evidence above and in the pages linked to makes it clear that such a ban is in the interests of good editing and collaborative conduct. Tim riley talk 09:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support – and, yes, it should be extended to the talk page as per Crisco's suggestion; hopefully the dissent will not continue to spill over into the other articles. SagaciousPhil - Chat 10:34, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment This is looking a bit kangaroo here. Looking at the article history, Lightshow hasn't edited the article for about six months. If you look at the history there is a clear pattern of SchroCat reverting all changes made by many other editors to the article during that time. It looks like all edits require SchoCat's explicit approval to be included. Not a very welcoming environment. Dr. Blofield's comment is telling here, wanting to ban someone from discussing any film biographical article primarily written by myself, Schro or Cass. It's hard to read that as anything but a demand for uncontested ownership of certain articles. __ E L A Q U E A T E 12:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Elaqueate: Frankly I'm sick of your sanctimonious uninformed comments here. You have no experience of what we've had to put up with for two years and it is rather annoying for some holier than thou individual to make judgements. Butt out, please.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Elaqueate, and you are? Cassianto^talk 17:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh! Do you have to be someone to comment here? How is this attitude supposed to convince other uninvolved editors that others weren't similarly "welcomed" on pages you edit? Is this a "closed" !vote? Are we somehow not at AN/I anymore?__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't, no, just stop commenting on things you know bugger all about. Lightshow has a very long history of making snide comments on talk pages of articles, Peter Sellers mainly, but his vendetta has surfaced in article talk pages as diverse as Charlie Chaplin and Stanley Kubrick. It is incredibly annoying to have somebody who has not had to deal with this for the last two years turning up and telling people to be civil or accusing people of OWN. That several very experienced administrators support a topic ban should tell you that this has gone on so long it's time for something to be done about it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Just asking who you were, that's all. No need to swing your handbag at me, if anybody has an "attitude" it is you sir. Oh, and FWIW, I'm not here to convince anyone. Cassianto^talk 18:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You were just collegially asking me for my papers, got it. __ E L A Q U E A T E 18:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you have got the shitty end of the stick. I didn't know in what capacity you were commenting from; bystander, admin, etc.. But thanks for showing your true colours which owing to the aforementioned shitty stick, is now brown I see. Cassianto^talk 18:46, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Classy argument.__ E L A Q U E A T E 19:08, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

and one it appears, you have no business in. Cassianto^talk 19:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I should keep talking to someone who just called me shit?__ E L A Q U E A T E 19:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Who would that be, because I haven't called you anything. Are you having trouble understanding, or are you only reading what you want to see? Cassianto^talk 20:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want to descend into personal attacks it reflects on you more than me. It doesn't improve anything here.__ E L A Q U E A T E 20:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, I'll add another question to my a answered "Who would that be?" What personal attacks? Cassianto^talk 20:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the smear, especially as it is catastrophically wrong: I have not reverted "all changes made by many other editors". I have reverted the introduction of errors (grammatical, factual, or use of the wrong ENGVAR elements), which is entirely acceptable, I believe. If I am wrong on that point, please let me know. You are also very wrong to say that "all edits require SchoCat's explicit approval to be included": that utter tripe. It's also not a question of ownership either: it's a question of having to deal with the behaviour of one disruptive editor who has been sniping and trolling on the talk page, not within the article, as well as on other talk pages. – SchroCat (talk) 13:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Elaqueate: In my experience it is very normal for all the but the highest quality edits to be reverted on a featured article. The standards are very high on those pages. Chillum 14:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

@Chillum:, you are right that changes to a quality FA should be made conservatively and that most proposed changes should demonstrate they meet that higher standard. I was only commenting that it seemed to be an individual editor that was ultimately judging that quality over a very long period, and that struck me as a bit of a warning flag for possible POV bias, conscious or not. FA doesn't mean perfect or finished.__ E L A Q U E A T E 14:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Not really. If I had not reverted the poor edits, someone else would have done. I have not reverted any improvements to the article, and it have explained my edits when I have reverted. - SchroCat (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure you find your own edits reasonable and necessary. Thanks for sharing that opinion.__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:59, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not, however, find your smears and untruths to be reasonable or necessary, but you seem to have skated by that. Thanks for sharing and smearing. - SchroCat (talk) 18:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussed editor hasn't edited the article in six months, and the talk page currently only has a total of seven comments. No recent diffs were given in this proposal, but that hasn't stopped people from !voting on it. I can't see that any uninvolved editors have been given any actual evidence, other than being told to "butt out". The only diff given in the proposal is two years old and the user had a different user name (what's the deal with that? Is that public?) __ E L A Q U E A T E 19:08, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The change has always been noted at the top of my user page. --Light show (talk) 19:15, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• As I noted above, it's even worse than a kangaroo court, as I came before this body with diffs to show a lack of civility and habitual flinging of PAs. Yet that original reason has been hijacked into a digressed topic of banning the complaining editor with almost no mention of the original complaint or its validity.

For a current example of how and why Schro-Cass resort to simple name-calling over calmly discussing things, visit the current Sellers talk page, where a new editor, User:MrBalham2, who is trying to point out exactly what I did years ago, is already being badgered and seems to be leaving in disgust. A quick link to what he observes in the article was first pointed out by me here, and the result of that was later pointed out here, which supports his and my observation. But this is not about Sellers, it's about the near total unconcern and ready acceptance of uncivility by this board.--Light show (talk) 17:31, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

And for the benefit of anyone appreciating some ironic humor, note SchroCat's first reply to the new editor: in the future, please comment on issues, not editors. and his most recent one, I have asked you not to dip into uncivil comments about other editors . . . not just insults to others, when in fact that editor was extra civil. --Light show (talk) 17:42, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you should have considered your own actions before rushing to ANI and posting this hastily added report. As for MrBalham2, they came to Sellers asserting their own POV which has been opposed by SchroCat and I. Their edits are not an improvement, and like you they can't accept that. It's just a coincidence that they are complaining about the same thing as you and they have an unhealthy interest in Sellers. Oh, and they came at the same time as this ANI having never expressed an interest in Sellers before; a bit iffy if you ask me. Cassianto^talk 17:45, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

An example of iffy is when a new editor, SchroCat, starts working on Peter Sellers, and 5 minutes later, you, another new editor, join in supporting his every edit, comment, and PA from then on. That's what may be called iffy, IMHO. And noting such things can get one banned from a talk page, it seems. --Light show (talk) 17:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

New editor? I have been here since 2010, SchroCat possibly longer. It sounds like you feel aggrieved at us "new" editors coming along and making your shit C-class version into an FA. Careful, your pal Elaqueate may accuse you of ownership if your not careful... Cassianto^talk 18:44, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

New editors to Peter Sellers article, in case anyone wasn't clear about it.--Light show (talk) 18:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support: Light show's edits and talk page postings at Peter Sellers (and other film biography articles) have been entirely disruptive over a very long period of time, and their behavior is not collaborative, but rather intended to upset other editors and make it so unpleasant for them that they will not challenge his/her edits. I also support the broader interaction ban. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support It is difficult enough to bring an article to FA without someone stepping on your shoes the whole way. Light should contribute to areas completely unrelated to Mr. Sellers. I am not sure about a wider ban, though I think as long as Sellers is not mentioned it may be okay. Repeat performances would likely result in quick consensus for widening the scope. Upon further reading I support a wider ban cover Kubrick and such. Chillum 14:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support and we should probably look at Stanley Kubrick as well. This is a talented and potentially productive editor but needs to learn to work better with others. Over-quoting is a defining and annoying fault, and doggedly defending the over-quoting starts to make other editors think about walking away. --John (talk) 18:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support Having seen the present issue spill over to Stanley Kubrick, and judging by other interactions I've had with Light Show which, by no means the same degree that would require any type of action, do point towards a battlefield mentality they hold when they don't get their way. --MASEM (t) 19:55, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I've made 517 edits to improve Kubrick, vs. 0 for you. Thanks for your support. I'll also note that Kubrick is a more honest example of how I, and other editors, should collaborate. For instance User:WickerGuy, the primary contributor, began his edits a year and a half before I started editing it. We, and other editors, including MarnetteD, had many discussions during the 8 months or so that it was heavily improved. There was never a heated discussion, no PAs, no uncivility by anyone. After much of the article was improved, WickerGuy even added some positive comments to my talk page. I know how to collaborate and work with other editors. You will not find any accusations about uncivility anywhere since I started editing 7 years ago.--Light show (talk) 20:05, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

It's your talk page behavior, eg [1], clearly pitting yourself as one side against Dr. Blofelt and SchroCat, specifically bringing up the Sellers article issues here. --MASEM (t) 20:30, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

An odd example, since you agreed with me that he was adding trivia. And under your watchful eye, you've let Blofeld do to Kubrick's personal life material, namely turn it into a choppy hodge-podge, of short, disconnected factoids, exactly as Schro-Cass-Blofeld did to Sellers. Blofeld did that to Kubrick, cutting out 75% of his personal life material, about 2,000 words, under your protection, all in a matter of minutes! All three(?) of those editors use the exact same editing style, and unsurprisingly they all use the same uncivil PA style of discourse in protecting their demolitions. Their comments above prove the point. Nuff said. Kubrick should have stayed in NY.--Light show (talk) 21:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, and I'm sure @John: would agree on this, no personal life section needs to be well over 2000 words!!! I cut it by 75% because it needed such a drastic cut. I haven't got around to writing a decent personal life section yet so obviously it's still not going to read wonderfully well. You're absolutely clueless how to write encyclopedia articles and don't just get that bloat and excess quotes are just not good. An actor dies and there you are adding excess quotes and bloating it out..♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Dr. Blofeld—are you really responding to User:Light show? They pointed out that this was all done "in a matter of minutes". Incremental edits are conducive to collaboration. Bus stop (talk) 19:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

You can be 100% certain that Blofeld knows exactly what he/they are again doing. The same as they successfully did to Sellers, ie. make it "incomprehensible", by making it unreadable. He/they quickly moved in with chain-saws and earth-movers to demolished 2,000, well-written, fully descriptive words of clear prose about his personal life. They turned it into a pile of rubble, as anyone can read here. The writing quality is enough to embarrass a twelve-year old. And that's probably the idea, IMO. The primary editor of that article had thanked me for improving the personal life material, after months of research and using numerous key sources. Blofeld is now beginning to demolish it like his team did to Sellers. I wonder what Kubrick and Sellers had in common? --20:21, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, the primary editor on Sellers had also thanked me: You added a lot of valuable detail and also some good sources that the article needs—very well done. --Light show (talk) 02:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

You're not helping your case by maintaining the battleground attitude here, trying to drag me into this when the only reason I have the Kubrick page on my watchlist was from NFC issues years ago. Yes, some of what Blofeld added was not really well suited, but note the difference between suggesting that trivia be cut down for improvements and holding a grudge from a different article. The ban from editing the Sellers article seems well merited until you can drop this attitude and work cooperatively. --MASEM (t) 21:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The ban from editing Sellers has been in effect for about two years. Every attempt to change punctuation or almost any other minor change by me or anyone else, has gotten reverted often without the courtesy of a rationale. A new editor tried to make some change yesterday, calmly discussed it, and still got pulverized with uncivility immediately. Maybe we should add the new editor to the proposed ban, just to make sure he doesn't try to improve things again. I do make comments on the Sellers talk page, but banning that kind of activity by a civil editor would amount to eliminating freedom of speech, not something I'm used to on this side of the pond. I do not use uncivil language, which is a bit tricky when pounced on by the PA team. --Light show (talk) 22:20, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

It is a lie to say there has been a ban on editing the page. Numerous people have improved the article and their edits stand. Those who introduce errors, change spellings (and punctuation) to AmEng variants, or introduce unsupported information or delete sourced information may be reverted, with an explanation. The editor yesterday (with whom the discussion continues) was not "pulverised" with anything, although he has been requested not to make personal remarks about other editors (he is extremely new and has not yet learnt the ropes here). You manage to turn up to pretty much every thread, and will bitch about the article, linking back to one of the many, many RfCs you started during the re-write (which the community decided against your opinion on nearly every one). Your negativity on the Sellers page has been seen in comments on threads on Chaplin, Kubrick, and I think one or two others, and I sincerely hope this will bring an end to it. – SchroCat (talk) 22:33, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

We haven't banned you, we have disagreed with your attempts to try and "improve" the article. Your edits were not an improvement and went against everything which seemingly passed the strict reviewers at peer review, GAN and FAC. But somehow, you think you're above all that and when you were rebuffed, you snipe at the "state of the article". Two years...of that! Cassianto^talk 22:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Should anyone need an example of the exact opposite, note comments by another new editor to Sellers, who also had some suggestions. They were logical ones, so I chimed in with a link to a similar issue from an earlier discussion. I was speaking to the new editor, User:Wordreader, yet the team members came charging over the hill like a bolt of lightning, with swords out:

Troll elsewhere:your endless bitching and sniping is deep in the territory of tedium, and your toxic rumblings have done nothing positive to this article. . . .

Needless to say, that editor, who later wrote: I find the comments of SchroCat and Cassianto to be disparaging and rude, also hasn't returned. That's the kind if banning I'm referring to, the psyop kind. Very effective. --Light show (talk) 23:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming that as soon a someone makes a comment you "chime in" with the same old comment that links to one of the pointless threads you implemented during the least enjoyable editing experience I suffered on Wikipedia. As to Wordreader, I agreed with his comment, and less than an hour after he had posted his comment, I edited the article to overcome his issue, and commented appropriately in the talk page. All you did was bitch and moan. Can you not see a) just how annoying and depressing it is for others for you to constantly bitching about the same topic, and b) why this thread has been proposed by a third party with no axe to grind here? As to saying Wordreader hasn't returned because of the comments, I find that so dubious to be laughable. – SchroCat (talk) 23:11, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Why not ask him? And that third party proposer, out of the blue, accused me of gaming user ratings, so your editing team wouldn't be too embarrassed, I presume. Oddly, all user ratings disappeared from WP soon after. --Light show (talk) 23:23, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

And note that the above discussion in the link, whereby I was immediately attacked, took place just a few months after the team began their editing of Sellers. Back then, SchroCat made comments like: Hi Wikiwatcher. I've finished my major overhaul of the "Personal life" section and this is now actually smaller than the previous version and a lot tighter than it was: I hope that you'll agree this is much more balanced than it was before. or . I'll be starting shortly on updating various bits, but any thoughts or suggestions are always welcome! Cheers -, or please let me know if you have any better ideas—this is just an initial suggestion! Within a few weeks, his comments took on a different tone, I've got a few other books knocking around, including a largely unread copy of the Lewis book (how much bile and hatred in one book can there be?!) so I hope we can get something fairly special out of it. Cheers And a few weeks later, he stopped using "Cheers" to sign off. And Sellers, IMO, is now in the cellar. Cheers.--Light show (talk) 00:15, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Those of us who support a ban are more than tired of being served Wikiwatcher/Light show WP:SOUP regardless of the type. This is the Skelton talk page, yet your inane nattering about the Sellers article found its way there. If there wasn't an agenda, this wouldn't have been posted there by you. We hope (talk) 23:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If any neutral editor read those comments, they'd have a hard time calling it anything but totally logical and inherently beneficial to discuss. So I'm glad that was the best you could find.--Light show (talk) 23:55, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:SOUP's on again! We hope (talk) 00:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Improvements? Says who? Cassianto^talk 20:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment – re-reading the exchanges above, I wonder is it normal for a new user to register a username solely for the purpose of intervening at a discussion such as this? It looks rather as though this is an interested user flying a flag of convenience (a sock-puppet, I think is the WP term). Is it possible for Elaqueate to identify him/herself as a separate entity, please? – Tim riley talk 20:10, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Give me a break. This: is it normal for a new user to register a username solely for the purpose of intervening at a discussion such as this? is completely fabricated. What is wrong with you?__ E L A Q U E A T E 20:26, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want a break, then log off and log back in as Light show... Cassianto^talk 20:34, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I sincerely doubt that Elaqueate, a user who has been editing here since Aug 2013, is a sock of Light Show. Such an accusation would need significant evidence. Chillum 20:41, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Chillum: see Elaqueate, that's all you needed to say in response to my first question to you. Now all Elaqueate has to do is show me "the personal attacks" I have made against them and who called him/her shit? Cassianto^talk 20:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually if you are interested in that then go to their talk page. This is not the appropriate place for you two to bicker. Chillum 20:58, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

It's appropriate inasmuch that it was a question which he/she failed to answer. If he/she had of told me their interest in the case to start with then we wouldn't be here now. Their failure to answer even prompted someone else to ask. My original question was a civil, pertinent and innocent question to ask which was ignored. That is why we are here now. Anyway, moving on... Cassianto^talk 21:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Chillum, I don't want an editor who just accused me of sock puppetry without proof and said But thanks for showing your true colours which owing to the aforementioned shitty stick, is now brown I see. anywhere near my talk page. I think I've been pretty patient after being told my true colors are shit brown, but I don't need to deal with more of it. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:14, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't care if you two go to one of your talk pages or not. Do not engage in back and forth bickering about each other in a topic about another user. The noise being added to this discussion is not helpful. Rule of thumb, if you are talking about someone other than Light Show then you are posting in the wrong place. Chillum 21:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as Light show, I'm beginning to see why there are only "Supports" here, even though I can see that various editors supported some of Light show's suggestions on the concerned talk pages at times. Whatever Light show's behavior, it seems to have been met with some pretty nasty business in return. I didn't even cast a !vote and I was told to "butt out", asked to identify myself twice, was told my true color is shit brown, and had a sock puppet accusation as a "new user". I wonder how much filth I would have gotten if I'd actually !voted. Something's off here but it looks more entrenched than anything I'd want to spend too much time on. It doesn't look exactly one-sided to someone outside of whatever bubble people are editing in. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:25, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

The real rule of thumb, practiced by the team, is "The best defense is a good offense." Hence, an editor going to ANI about uncivility by a tag team, turns into a proposal to ban the complaining editor. Forget the rampant uncivility. Or when some new editor calmly suggests changes on a Sellers talk page, notice how the new editor is set upon immediately by the team. Very sobering and discouraging stuff. You would have been amazed at seeing how the team jumped on some other editors who were also criticizing Sellers at its peer review. --Light show (talk) 21:43, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

* Oppose. At least on the Peter Sellers Talk page some of the above have presented a caustic environment for those that disagreed with them. I disagreed with some of the above folks and User:Light show disagreed with some of the above folks. I don't think these comments are proper for Talk page use:

• "Why is it the same people turning up time and time again here? A couple of times it's easy to assume good faith but this sort of thing seems to happen every few weeks."

• "And, once again, it's trivial shit by someone who never met of knew either man."

• ""The reader may want to know why Sellers' was attracted to playing the role of Wingate. -- Then again, they may not give a toss. Now move along, there is nothing to see here! "

• "These are trolls, pure a simple. Let's stop feeding them."

• "THIS IS NOT OUR FUCKING OPINION, IT IS THE VIEW OF THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK! Dr. B has addressed that. Now for gods sake move on!"

Just my opinion. Bus stop (talk) 22:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

So you "oppose" here based on our comments? Sorry, I thought it was Light show on offer here because of his behaviour? This is not a valid vote as you have missed the point of this proposal entirely. If I remember rightly, you accused the article and us of anti-semitism? Cassianto^talk

There has been some incivility, I don't think anyone supporting this proposal would deny that, but what do you really expect when someone has sustained a 2-year campaign to junk other people's work? The problem isn't really the incivility, that's just a symptom; the problem—and it's a fundamental one—is that you have an editor who is committed to a vastly inferior version of the article and who won't let go. The reason I proposed an article ban (and I did intend for that to include talk page input) is that I simply don't see how to resolve Light year's continued involvement in the article with maintaining its quality. You can see from the tone of this discussion just how much bad blood there is, and if it isn't ended here then it will almost certianly continue back at the article. Do SchroCat and Cassianto have another two years of this haranguing to put up with? What happens if they get so sick of it they withdraw and let Light year do what he wants to the article? The truth is it's a great article and it wouldn't be out of place in a professional encyclopedia, so the community should take action to safeguard articles of that quality. Betty Logan (talk) 04:22, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment

Hello All

I'm a "newbie" so please treat me well. Please excuse typos and bad grammar, formatting etc. I think there are a lot of experienced editors here. Some of you have done some great work and rightly some of your articles have been promoted to FA status.

However, with your experience a little arrogance has crept in, and with that you've forgotten that anyone can edit these articles regardless of experience. This is the golden rule and the overriding principle.

Any disputes are discussed on talk pages. However, I've come across something that is worse than vandalism on these pages.

Some of these articles have over 300 notes and references. A majority of these pointing to a handful of books and their page numbers. But also sophisticated named ref tags as well. Deleting lines also means deleting these named tags. There is a lot of hard work put into them. The people who have created them have read all these books and created these references.

These editors have done some painstaking research. In this pursuit they have become quite experienced and are aware of all the rules and coding. However, this is where the arrogance creeps in, and worse still, they have become "experts". They then start forgetting the Wikipedian principles and become corrupted in their overzealousness.

If you look at my experience, as an example, on the "Peter Sellers" Talk page you can see that a group of editors who have clubbed together and built FAs are commenting. Some of the FAs are very good...and here's the problem....some of them are not.

1. When the editors are challenged and and it becomes one editor vs another "separate" editor and it is merely a difference of opinion. If the "separate editor" stands their ground, another editor from the club steps in and sides with their fellow FA editor.

2. At this points the consensus principle is abused.

3. Here's where the sophistication comes in. A third editor steps in and becomes disparaging and also sides with their fellow FA editor. Opening statements are also confrontational. A distraction to anger/wind-up the "separate" editor from the original argument which gets lost into, and deteriorates, into mudslinging. Since all three club members have the consensus there is no chance for dissent or objectivity on FAs.

This "ganging up" tactic is worse than vandalism. It's perfectly good editors who have become corrupt and forgotten the Wikipedia golden rule is (and in the words of Brian Cohen) is that "we are all individuals". This "gang"/club consensus should be avoided.

Light show is quite passionate and annoying to some of you, but they are on their own fighting their own point of view. They are entitled to be as challenging as they want. You can't shrug the principle because you don't like someone.

If you choose to block this editor from the "Sellers" article, then equally, SchroCat, Cassianto and Dr. Blofeld need to be banned/blocked from this article too. I believe Tim riley is part of the same club as well, and should also be blocked. If there are others, please point them out.

It'll be a painful object lesson for them all, however, they need to realise that "gang mentality" or bullying is unacceptable on Wikipedia.

Administrators please investigate this more widely. If there are already existing rules regarding "editor clubs" please make those on this thread aware. If there is not, then I have highlighted a policy problem.

Newcomers to Wikipedia will be put off by this type of hostility. Wikipedia is one of the great achievements of the net neutral internet. Please don't wreck it with bad behaviour and the arrogant assumption that you are the true "experts".

Please note I am not a sock puppet for Light show.

Good luck all and happy editing! MrBalham2 (talk) 08:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

As I have explained to you previously, having people disagree with you isn’t "ganging-up": it's part of the way things are discussed and agreed upon here, and once you have been editing for more than ten days you will come to appreciate that. In other words, people joining in discussions is how we reach a consensus, and is to be encouraged: just because people disagreed with you, does not mean that anyone has been "ganging up" on you. This has all been explained to you before, and you have not taken it on board, just as you did not seem to take on board explanations in the talk page. WP:ICANTHEARYOU is not a good way to start your Wiki life, and I sincerely hope that you read and take on board other people's comments, both in talk and forums such as this. - SchroCat (talk) 08:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I've let it go on on the "Sellers" talk page. Don't worry! That discussion is closed. I'm illustrating your process of consensus here.

I've already highlighted your method and how I think the consensus process can be abused, so have other editors. Administrators can decide on whether that process was fair and whether you and your Wiki colleagues should be blocked from that article. I'm merely highlighting your methods in discussions. I'm entitled give my views and experience of that process. Your tactics are under scrutiny. MrBalham2 (talk) 10:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Putting forward a reasonable opinion on a talk page about edits isn't a "tactic": it's how wiki works, and I am not sure that with your ten-days experience here that you've fully grasped that. Additionally, just because other editors disagree with you, doesn't mean there is anything underhand about it: that's how we build a consensus, and how the consenus changes. - SchroCat (talk) 10:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm clear about the consensus process. It is you and your Wiki colleagues' approach to that process with any editor (not just me) that is under scrutiny on this page. It is up to Administrators to decide whether that process was fair. I hope you concur. MrBalham2 (talk) 11:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you are not clear about consensus on Wiki, given your comments here and at the Sellers talk page, and that you are still in WP:ICANTHEARYOU territory here. I'm sure that your ten-days of in-depth experience here has provided you with a vast amount of knowledge of how this all works, but you're just not taking on board what is being explained to you. As to what is under scrutiny on this thread, it is not my approach, but a proposal as to whether Light show should be banned from editing on the Sellers page and talk page. - SchroCat (talk) 11:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Administrators need to get the whole picture. This will include Light show's grievances. Light show has used my case as an illustration on this thread. This includes you and your Wiki colleagues' approach to that process with any editor (not just me) that is also under scrutiny on this page. It is up to Administrators to decide whether that process was fair. I'm entitled to express my views. Thanks. MrBalham2 (talk) 12:52, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Reality check: Earth calling Balham – how would a ban on editing the Peter Sellers article make any difference to an editor (me) whose total contribution to it was correcting three typos in August the year before last? – Tim riley talk 13:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If you're innocent then there's nothing to worry about! I think you work with the aforementioned Wiki colleague on other FAs. Administrators need to be aware if FAs are becoming "no go" editing areas apart from a select few.i.e. if an FA editor is having difficulty with a another "unfamiliar editor" standing their ground then other Wiki colleagues swoop in to help out by applying a consensus. I think it's a practice that should be stamped out. It goes against Wikipedia principles. MrBalham2 (talk) 13:55, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

A "no-go" editing area like this edit, which was made and is still present on the page? Or are you just complaining because when you deleted half a paragraph of pertinent information it was reverted? There is absolutely nothing "no go" about editing on the article, as the evidence of one of your extant edits shows. - SchroCat (talk) 14:06, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I was content with both edits. Including your reversion. My attempt was to transfer the information to its correct area and reduce a overlong para I accepted your revert. It was when I suggested a reasonable alternative is when the "team" swooped in with the tactics I mentioned earlier. I have now been made aware by other editors that this is common practice with you and your like-minded colleagues. The Administrators need to be aware that this happens. If there isn't a policy then there should be one to stamp the practice out. Wikipedia is for all (even the one's who make your editing life hell) and not and for a select few "gatekeepers". MrBalham2 (talk) 15:00, 8 September 2014 (UTC).

MrBalham2 wrote (emphasis added): "I have now been made aware by other editors that this is common practice with you and your like-minded colleagues." Sorry to "swoop in", but this page is on my watchlist, as indeed is "Peter Sellers", and I couldn't help picking up this discussion. So who has told you this "now", and where? Your claim about "common practice" does not seem at all evident to me in this discussion you've had with a third party, where you have been told quite clearly that "you need to be careful about editing featured articles since featured articles are the highest standard of quality there is"; and "The fact that the editors you are in conflict with are all quite experienced. You are free to request a FAR; however, you must be prepared to have a result that you are not quite happy with." Alfietucker (talk) 15:25, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That has also struck me, and I have asked MrBalham on his talk page about this. - SchroCat (talk) 15:30, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what the others were implying? The link to the third party discussion is a very good example on how you make new editors feel after such an experience of “being ganged up” on. Yes I am aware of FAR suggestion. Thanks for pointing it out. I was made “aware" by reading Light show’s exmaples further up this thread. I didn’t need need to be “told” by anyone.MrBalham2 (talk) 18:07, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, the beauty of private email! Cassianto^talk 15:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure MrBalham2 is aware that there are already policies related to tag teams. Luckily, he seems to understand the common sense policies of civility, which is one of the pillars supporting WP, and probably civilization itself. But, like me, is taken aback that that a basic pillar can be ignored and overturned so easily by so many. Hence, the original ANI against two boastfully uncivil editors, even to other editors on this page, is immediately hijacked into a proposal to ban the complainant, who no one has shown to have ever made uncivil comments.

Regarding accusations that I've created a "battlefield atmosphere" on the talk page, I can assure your the exact opposite is the case. A quick example can be seen here, where the alleged team, shortly after coming to the Sellers article begins to demolish it without discussion, attacks every editor commenting, and gains the immediate support of teammates: Local editor being SchroCat. It is he who has single handedly turned this article's fortunes around and made it a serious future contender for FAC for which he should be applauded not villified. Recall that those two editors began their editing blitz on Sellers shortly before, and 5 minutes apart. And of course a quick look at the Sellers talk page over the last few days proves that the battlefield mentality is created against any editors, and by only one group: the team. --Light show (talk) 17:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the support Light show. I don't entirely agree with you about the Peter Sellers article but SchroCat is a great editor...although too stubborn for me, Good luck to you both on the outcome. MrBalham2 (talk) 18:34, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I have no previous experience of the Peter Sellers or related articles. I was on this page because of an unrelated matter. But I think the responses to MrBalham2's politely phrased comment more than adequately illustrate the problems with these editors' attitude and behavior. "I'm sure that your ten-days of in-depth experience here has provided you with a vast amount of knowledge of how this all works, but you're just not taking on board what is being explained to you", "Reality check: Earth calling Balham", "Ah, the beauty of private email!" Whether or not these editors liked what the editor had to say, these are not reasoned or reasonable responses. Just looking at the current revision of the talk page, I see what I would consider intolerable rudeness to Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) by SchroCat, with Cassianto chipping in at the end with "I can't work out if your niceness is masking a patronising and flippant overtone, or if you are actually being pleasant. I will AGF and assume the latter." And the reader is expected to assume the assumption of good faith. SchroCat wrote above, "As to what is under scrutiny on this thread, it is not my approach, but a proposal as to whether Light show should be banned from editing on the Sellers page and talk page." Actually, no. The Light show ban is just a sub-section; the thread is about the behavior of SchroCat and Cassianto. (Note: all of this is without prejudice as to the outcome concerning Light show). Scolaire (talk) 19:47, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• That's all well and good if you ignore the fact that Norton was edit warring, breaking citations, introducing errors and cutting across cited material by trying to force a citation that didn't support the information he claimed it did. You can ignore the degradation of a quality article if you want, but I'm not sure it's the most sensible approach to article development, do you? – SchroCat (talk) 20:11, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's clear that some people, including Scolaire, would rather read a shite article which is littered with POV, mistakes, bad prose and dodgy referencing just so long as everyone who contributes are lovely to one another. This, it seems, is more favourable than reading a featured article and having to - although not needing to - read a few "rude and disparaging" comments from those who are protecting the article from slipping into the gutter. In an ideal world everybody would get on famously on featured talk pages, but this is not an ideal world. If it was, I would be shacked up with Jennifer Lawrence! Cassianto^talk 20:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you both for illustrating my point so well. I needn't say more; it would be just gilding the lily. Scolaire (talk) 07:05, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• How odd: there is nothing illustrated here, except the fact you did not look into the reasons behind the interaction properly, or you would have seen that Norton was warring and ignoring all requests to use the talk page; while he was warring he introduced errors. You still have not answered the question of how you think this is a sensible way to approach article development. - SchroCat (talk) 07:14, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Wouldn't this be an issue to take to WP:DRN? Anyway, it would be good if Light show, and Cassianto and SchroCat, avoid talking to each other in regards to the article anywhere, not just on the article talk page. It may be that Light may have some useful comments, given the above exchanges, and that Cass's and Schro's comments, while justifiably angry because they've worked so hard to get this to Featured status, come out as too harsh. So, I'm not voting either way, but I think a topic ban doesn't resolve many problems if there are some useful suggestions, at least. In fact, an interaction ban would be more appropriate if considered. Epicgenius (talk) 20:37, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I've tried avoiding interacting with them as much as possible. My few recent comments on Sellers' talk were to other editors who had some suggestions. They were logical ones, so I naturally chimed in to help. I was speaking to the new editor, User:Wordreader, yet the team members came charging over the hill like a bolt of lightning, with swords out:

Troll elsewhere:your endless bitching and sniping is deep in the territory of tedium, and your toxic rumblings have done nothing positive to this article. . . .

Needless to say, that editor, who later wrote: I find the comments of SchroCat and Cassianto to be disparaging and rude, hasn't returned. And the following talk editor has also left for good. The team should simply be banned from ever interacting with me or discussing me, everything would go fine. I have no desire to talk with them again, ever since I realized I'd been conned:

Hi Wikiwatcher. I've finished my major overhaul of the "Personal life" section . . . I hope that you'll agree this is much more balanced than it was before, or I'll be starting shortly on updating various bits, but any thoughts or suggestions are always welcome! Cheers, or please let me know if you have any better ideas—this is just an initial suggestion! --Light show (talk) 21:37, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If anyone wants any more examples of why this proposal has been made, Light show's most recent edit should provide enough reason of what people have had to put up with over the last two years:

You can be 100% certain that Blofeld knows exactly what he/they are again doing. The same as they successfully did to Sellers, ie. make it "incomprehensible", by making it unreadable. He/they quickly moved in with chain-saws and earth-movers to demolished 2,000, well-written, fully descriptive words of clear prose about his personal life. They turned it into a pile of rubble, as anyone can read here. The writing quality is enough to embarrass a twelve-year old. And that's probably the idea, IMO. The primary editor of that article had thanked me for improving the personal life material, after months of research and using numerous key sources. Blofeld is now beginning to demolish it like his team did to Sellers. I wonder what Kubrick and Sellers had in common? --20:21, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Enough is enough of this obsession with the Sellers article, with the constant sniping and complaining, and with continuing to spread this nonsense onto the Chaplin and Kubrick talk pages. DRN? I think we're way beyond that with Light show's approach. – SchroCat (talk) 20:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

So, no DRN then? Maybe an IBAN is better, as described above. Epicgenius (talk) 20:46, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

@SchroCat. Then maybe next time an editor goes to ANI about a general issue of uncivility, everywhere, you and your team don't hijack it into a proposal to ban that complainant from so much as talking on Peter Sellers. --Light show (talk) 20:51, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Most of what you say is wrong and a hinderance to the article, so maybe next time you will learn to think before you type. Cassianto^talk 21:03, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• For someone who claims never to be uncivil, you do an awful lot of uncivil accusations. There is no "team": there are individual editors who are making their own value judgements. As for something turning back on the complainant, it's called WP:PETARD, and it is the community that is discussing things here in an open forum! no "team" of anyone's. - SchroCat (talk) 20:59, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support It is not right or fair that editors who come here in good faith to work on this encyclopaedia should have to endure this sort of disruptive treatment, and for as long as as they have had to endure it. If individual editors cannot work on an article collegially then they should not be allowed to work on it at all. Jack1956 (talk) 21:09, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• I make 16 supports to 2 oppose a consensus to have Light show switched off on Sellers, Kubrick, Chaplin etc including talk pages. Are their any admins looking in who can close this pantomime now? Cassianto^talk 21:28, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

You refer to having User:Light show "switched off on Sellers, Kubrick, Chaplin". Are you gloating? Bus stop (talk) 00:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

If that makes you happy to call it that then yes. Cassianto^talk 04:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

You are referring to having "Light show switched off". Are you trivializing another editor? Bus stop (talk) 00:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Question about speed editing: How does an editor, ie. SchroCat, manage to make 19 fairly complex edits to Sellers over a 1-minute period, which is 3 seconds per edit? When I use the term "blitz," I mean it literally. The three editors in question have somehow managed that feat a number of times. Here's some of SchroCats earliest edits. This is a compilation of those 1-minute changes That miraculous feat was immediately followed by DrBlofeld, who could do about the same number of (not-minor) edits in 1 minute. Not to be left out Cassianto was nearly as fast, doing 13 in 1 minute. Should Cassianto take a speed-typing class to help keep up? --Light show (talk) 01:40, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• They look like good edits. If made quickly all the better. Chillum 01:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not getting your point Light show? Cassianto^talk 04:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• Much though I would like to be able to be that fast, the 17 (not 19) changes were over the course of an hour (16:11 to 17:11), not a minute. The same is true for Cassianto and Blofeld's edits. Whether a minute or an hour, I'm still not sure of either the problem, or the relevance here? - SchroCat (talk) 06:11, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

My mistake. I've been used to looking at my clock up top with the seconds on the right. The relevance was that with such rapid-fire editing by three editors, there's less ability for anyone to check things or make corrections. Looking back, with up to hundreds of edits a day, the article was totally changed without little chance for previous editors to comment, proof, check facts, or edit the prose. Your're right, whether it's 19 a minute or 19 edits an hour, makes little difference. This happened on Kubrick recently. My understanding of the guidelines was that incremental editing for such major changes was recommended to allow other editors to review or comment. That opportunity was mostly eliminated. When established primary editors wake up and there's 100's of edits to review, the consensus-based editing system fails.--Light show (talk) 07:11, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

The fact that it made featured article seems to indicate that the changes were good. It is good when an article is racially improved over a short period of time, we give out barnstars for that sort of thing. The history is always there so that you can take your time reviewing changes and always find old versions. And yes it makes a very big difference if it is hours or minutes. Chillum 07:14, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

As explained in an essay on tag teams, "it's a controversial form of meatpuppetry in which editors coordinate their actions to circumvent the normal process of consensus." Had the team acted in accord with consensus guidelines, this whole issue would not exist. A good early example of what kind of blitz editing led to this dispute. All very avoidable. --Light show (talk) 07:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

When people gang up to improve the encyclopedia it is a good thing. Chillum 07:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that's an essay, rather than a guideline, let alone a policy, there is no tag team here. Try to WP:AGF and think that perhaps very active editors are working on an article to re-write an essay. That's not tag-teaming or meat-puppetry: that is how articles can be re-developed. They can, of course drift for a few years with no-one attempting to do much, which explains the parlous state in whch the Sellers article was before the re-write. - SchroCat (talk) 08:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I had to rub my eyes: Try to WP:AGF. Was that meant as a joke? I couldn't count the times you boldly interjected yourself into talk pages, where I'm talking to another editor, to make comments such as in Chaplin:

More bad faith silliness from LightShow? What a surprise! He's always in a state of shock if someone doesn't cast a celebrity in a glowing light and gloss over everything in a private life! - SchroCat.

I have never accused you and the others of BF. And like your other ABFs, they usually have almost nothing to do with the context of the discussion, but are made simply to PA a GF editor. I can find dozens of times you and the others, who edit and comment exactly alike, have started your responses, to me and others, with the BF label. I've come to ignore them long ago. Sadly, as this ANI implies, so have your 16 supporters. --Light show (talk) 16:44, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, no? Talk:Mike Todd ":No need to ABF by implying hidden agendas. My only agenda is to improve lead images that IMO need improving. That's why I didn't bother changing an image you chose for Red Skelton's lead, even though I also uploaded a different one last year. Yours was fine, even though it was much smaller. Lighten up." And the reply: Mike Todd talk page "If we're going to mix apples and oranges on Todd's talk page, let's set the facts straight re: your claim of not changing the infobox photo at Skelton: (add different image) (The original image is better in quality. Maybe a discussion should be started.) If the number of edits you've made to the Todd article and what they were are BF, then so be it." We hope (talk) 17:06, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

BTW, as I once tried to show, the article before your blitz re-write, went from a reader rating of 3.5 (very good) for "Readability" to 1, (incomprehensibe). And went from "neutral and balanced," to "heavily biased," according to the first 39 people who, amazingly, managed to read through it, and kindly took the time to give their objective opinions. It took me hours to remove the mud and battle scars when I returned after making that simple observation. --Light show (talk) 17:25, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly Drmies looked at your comment, and then at the article, and wrote of your behaviour that "These allegations, besides ridiculously untrue, are disruptive and I believe they are made in bad faith, a result of sour grapes." Just thought I'd remind you of that further example of WP:PETARD. - SchroCat (talk) 17:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Point being? You know that I asked him what "allegations" he was talking about, since I only noted reader's ratings, and neither they nor anyone responded. Although it was just another blatant, irrelevant, uncivil comment, so thanks for noting it. --Light show (talk) 18:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Errrmmm.... Drmies is an experienced and well-respected admin, so I'm not sure I would class their judgement on editor interaction as a "blatant, irrelevant, uncivil comment", to be honest! - SchroCat (talk) 18:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I assume you concur with Cassianto's latest expression of civility. De ja vu all over again. WP's pillars are being mocked. --Light show (talk) 20:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

...again, your point is? Your being your usual, disruptive best on the talk page. Like I say, as long as the edits are constructive, any editor can edit anywhere and at any time they like? It's how the encyclopaedia is built believe it or not. Cassianto^talk 20:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted that Light Show has attacked Dr. Blofeld's changes that he has done over at Stanley Kubrick. (Here is Light Show's addition to the talk page today). He is calling Blofeld's 50-odd edits over a 4 month period (in brief bursts) as problematic rapid fire editing and a problem because Blofeld had never edited Kubrick's article before. Clearly part of this same battlefield mentality to try to get their way in the clear face of opposition, maintaining the battlefield mentality. --MASEM (t) 21:15, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a better link to the full discussion, as it shows who creates the battlefield and how the pillar of civility is mocked. --Light show (talk) 22:00, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Considering this discussion has been open for 2-3 days now and a clear consensus seems to have emerged it would be nice if an uninvolved admin could close this. Chillum 07:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• I agree. Are there any uninvolved admins? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. I am no fan of Light show/Wikiwatcher's editing, particularly with regard to their very problematic uploads of nonfree images claimed as free. However, this free-fire zone fails basic tests. Blocks and similar sanctions are intended to be preventive, not punitive. A topic ban on an article the user has not edited for months should go nowhere, and the poorly defined/justified extension to other articles is procedurally incoherent. This is exactly the situation where a well-structured user RFC is called for, and would be useful; I would hope whichever admin closes this discussion would take no action here and direct the complainants to file such an RFC if they wish to proceed further. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 15:13, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• The ban should cover the talk page, which is where the main disruption occurs. Comments such as this on other pages (in this case the Kubrick talk page) are symptomatic of the approach of this editor to the Sellers article—and seemingly to article re-writes—not just on the Sellers talk page, but others too. Hopefully the closing admin will take this ongoing widespread disruption into account when closing. - SchroCat (talk) 15:44, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

c. 1,400 administrators, and never one around to close when you need them - even after a four day wait. I've dragged this out of the archive in the hope that one of 1,400 can bring this to a formal closure before it is archived again. – SchroCat (talk) 06:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

---

I guess I'll step in, as an uninvolved admin. The consensus here is pretty clear. The talk page seems to be the main issue, and pretty much everyone who has opposed has failed to get that. I have not separately examined the facts, I am simply looking at the consensus of the discussion above. User:Light show, from what I can tell, you've done some excellent work elsewhere, but you are seen as going way against consensus on Sellers; consider yourself banned from working on matters related to Sellers, but your contributions on other topics remain welcome. - Jmabel | Talk 15:47, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipediocracy doxxing

Wikipediocracy doxxed a couple users, including myself (though who I am is no secret) and a minor. REDACTED NAMES PER ADMIN REQUEST. I'm not sure if they're Wikipedia editors, but if they are, their actions are wholly unacceptable. Is there any way to find out if these folks are Wikipedia editors? If so, I'd like to see action taken against them. Titanium Dragon (talk) 20:51, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not believe that any of them are current Wikipedia users. The Wikipediocracy is an external website not under the jurisdiction of the Wikipedia in any manner. More often than not though, as in this situation, their editorial 100% nails it, IMO. Tarc (talk) 21:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, given that you've insulted everyone who was editing that article and trying to include information about the issue as misogynists, I'm not terribly surprised you agree with them. But your ill behavior is not at issue here. Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry that misogynists feel insulted. Tarc (talk) 23:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly, one other thing we have in common is that, unlike the other users involved in the editing of those pages, we both specifically warned @NorthBySouthBaranof: about his/her behavior. Not sure if it is related. Do you know who these people are, North? Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I would warn you about your behavior in attempting to smear living people on the encyclopedia, but that's already been done numerous times by administrators who have had to repeatedly revision-delete your scurrilous nonsense about Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. Given your penchant for making unfounded accusations about them, I'm not surprised that you're making unfounded insinuations about me. The answer is no, by the way. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty serious allegation, or at least implication. You are understandably upset about what happened, but maybe step back and think about what you are saying, and reserve your anger for the four individuals at Wikipediocracy, one of whom is already indef blocked. Gamaliel (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know (or care) who the other three are, but if any of them are still active editors here, I'd support blocks for them. The fact that we cannot regulate what happens at other websites does not mean that we have to put up with the consequences of those happenings, here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm actually not upset, more... grimly amused? I mean, I've never been doxxed before. Its like a rite of passage! People really hate me! Rather than the casual hatred they reserved for me in the past. I suppose I am somewhat annoyed at them on the other user's behalf, because, well, I'm an adult and used to such people on the internet, but they're a potentially vulnerable minority minor who now has their picture posted for the world to see in conjunction with their user name and some other personal information which could potentially lead to identification in real life (as opposed to the Internet, though it becomes more and more real every day, I suppose). I apologize for the implication; I just noticed it off-handedly while browsing user talk pages of people who were involved, in case the folk in question were users who had been on the page. Some people list their real life names on their Wikipedia profiles, or link to where they work or whatever. I'm glad to hear you weren't involved, North; thanks for your input, and I'm sorry I came off as accusatory. I have noticed you have been more civil recently, and I appreciate that. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

On this whole bit, since I am one of the individuals who was supposedly 'doxxed' in this article. It's not all that surprising that people--instead of wishing to conflate or actually dissent with actual arguments, have to refer to finding all the personal information about it. It's a bit weird of an obsession, honestly. I am a real person, you can talk to me, I'm not some robot being inputted some commands by some 'higher up' person, so why wouldn't they fight with an actual idea, a post on my talk page, 'Why did you do X' or 'Y' or 'Z' on this page, and get my real thoughts on it. Instead, they have to use bully tactics, doxxing me and posting information about me. That said, it's obviously more safe for me to not comment about the validity of the information posted, for my safety of course. Tutelary (talk) 22:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• No action can be taken here. Wikipedia cannot regulate offwiki attacks, per WP:NPA#Off-wiki attacks. KonveyorBelt 22:49, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• We can certainly block them here if they aren't already blocked, but unless someone is going to propose a specific on-wiki action, we should close this thread. Gamaliel (talk) 23:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Then I propose that we block the ones who aren't already blocked, and then close this thread. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That was all the action I could really expect/hope for. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't get the logic of people who do stuff like this. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 23:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Wow. People write My Little Pony fiction? Drmies (talk) 00:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Lots of them. FIMFiction has north of a billion (yes, with a b) words of pony fanfiction on it. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• A link to some explanation of what the hell you all mean by "doxxing" would be helpful for those unfamiliar with this neologism. See Doxing. Otherwise we might assume it was related to "becoming a Doxy:" Floozy, prostitute, mistress. Edison (talk) 00:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Don't be such a luddite, Edison, with your old-fashioned "dictionary" full of dead, stupid words. Besides, you're wrong: a "doxy" is clearly a more economical version of User:Roxy the dog, with some metathesis or sumpin' thrown in for good measure. Drmies (talk) 01:06, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Isn't a doxy a little winged creature that Mrs. Weasley was cleaning out of Sirius' house? Btw, @Tryptofish:, you reverted my attempt to wrap this up nicely, so care to explain what you hope to accomplish by keeping this open? Tarc (talk) 01:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
      • I trust that is no longer a serious question. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
        • Why isn't it a serious question? What administrative action are you seeking here? Tarc (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Well, it's obvious to me. Take a look at my 23:26 comment. If you wanted to wrap it up, I wonder why you have continued to comment afterwards, and in any case, you were more than a wee bit "involved". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hey, I resemble that remark. -Doxy the rog™ (resonate) 03:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• One of the editors involved in the GamerGate article dispute, Tarc, apparently commented this doxxing article in an edit summary when reverting one of the editors allegedly doxxed: "rv: Good for you to get together some editors who apparently squeezed a non-existent thing out of non-existent sources. It doesn't make t any more real, and it looks like outside eyes are finally getting in on this." I can't interpret that other than an endorsement or approval of the doxxing. Are these kind of shots at the editors mentioned in the article acceptable? --Pudeo' 03:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm pretty sure he's just talking about other editors looking at the article; people often refer to getting "other eyes" on stuff. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Though it should be noted that Tarc deliberately said (On Wikipediocracy, with the same name) I had fun on Wikipediocracy for awhile pretending to be a black conservative. Can’t really say why or when it started, it just kind of came about during some discussion or other, that it’d be fun to be something else and argue as if that was important. So I rolled with it. “As a black man…” can be quite an argument-buster if wielded correctly.

We can smell our own; Tutelary is complexly, Grade-A full of shit.

As for the rest of the rabble at the Zoe Quinn and related articles, it’s a continuation of the original harassment she endured; the overlap of white, single 18-35 yr olds who are both gamers and Wikipedians is sizable. Since Tarc is a Wikipedia editor, can anything be done about this comment? Tutelary (talk) 10:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

How do you know that that wasn't someone who used Tarc's name to get him into trouble on Wikipedia? If we rely on Wikipediocracy comments to block Wikipedia users then Reddit comments are grounds for blocking as well. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 10:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I see that someone made a point about this by imposing as me on Wikipediocracy and commenting about my blocks, and even calling Drmies a 'nutjob' and such and complaining about an apparent 'feminist dominance' on here. This is growing to be quick harassment, only thing that's missing is the harassing phone calls. Tutelary (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is a problem with the anonymous comment section of a blog; anyone can be anyone, identity is not provable. Perhaps this will be one of those proverbial "teachable moments", and going forward you will be less dismissive of the harassment endured by Quinn, Sarkeesian, et al... Tarc (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Nobody on Wikipedia is harassing people. Where do you draw the line between criticism and harassment? Because it's a problem if people are intimidated against calling out shitty/abusive behavior when they see it. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I call BS. Every intentional violation of BLP is an act of harassment, as far as I'm concerned. Ask around about what Qworty was doing: it was harassment. Drmies (talk) 18:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

... and Qworty's little game was exposed by Wikipediocracy and its so-called "doxxing," I remind everyone. Then Qworty acknowledged the accuracy of this on-wiki and only then was the community capable of doing anything. So-called doxxing has its place and Wikipediocracy doesn't engage in it either frequently or lightly. Carrite (talk) 14:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Evidence suggests, TD, that you were outed because you attracted attention by behaving badly in public and by leaving a trail which made it easy to tie your behavior, good or bad, into a single identity with a real-world name. That's your fault, and in the real world, pointing over at Wikipediocracy and bellowing "they outed me!" is either a sign that you don't really care that they did that, or an act of colossal stupidity. Either way, the revenge you seek here is a childishness which should be disregarded in favor of a consideration of your sins at the articles in question, where you apparently are pursuing some sort of vendetta. Mangoe (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you seriously blaming him for getting doxed? Tutelary (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Why, yes, I am. People who don't act like that don't motivate others to find out why they are acting that way, and those who are so promiscuous with their identity do not find such curiosity so easily satisfied. Mangoe (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It's an interesting moral quandary, isn't it? On the one hand, WP:OUTING is strongly forbidden by site policy, and it causes people significant distress. Some "outings" appear to have served no greater purpose than satisfying the sadism or vindictiveness of some obsessive grudge-bearer. On the other hand, Wikipediocracy contributors have also successfully identified several cases of serious abuse of Wikipedia, where repellent behavior would have continued indefinitely if not for Wikipediocracy's "outing" (the cases I have in mind are those of Qworty (talk · contribs) and Little green rosetta (talk · contribs), although the latter seems to be active again now with an alternate account). We actually owe Wikipediocracy a debt of gratitude for calling attention to those cases, because these "outings" served a constructive purpose and likely reduced the real-life harm these individuals had caused. So... like most real-life ethical questions, it's not as black-and-white as one would like to believe. MastCell ^Talk 17:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

As someone who got doxxed for "behaving badly" by having opinions about BLPs, you can fuck right off with that. The real world is the real world, but doxxing isn't some proportionate punishment meted out for sins, real or imagined. It's cowardly bullshit designed to chill speech and heap scorn on people from afar. Protonk (talk) 19:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this is a response to me (based on the indenting, I'm guessing it's not), but in any case I'd put your "outing" firmly in the category of "served no greater purpose than satisfying the sadism or vindictiveness of some obsessive grudge-bearer." I'm sorry if I implied otherwise. MastCell ^Talk 19:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It was not directed at you. I was torn between just indenting for threading or pinging, but I figured it was less justifiable to "ping" someone and tell them to fuck off than it would be to just say it. Protonk (talk) 19:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

To respond to your comments that it isn't always black and white, that is true but in a really unpelasant way. To the person doing the doxxing, it's often completely black and white. Back in the day BLP apostasy was exactly that in the eyes of folks at WR and other places. BLPs were a struggle for the heart of the project and represented a real potential damage to humans based on anonymous work. We can look at them and say that this manichean view was unfounded, but they don't feel that way. The folks at Wikipediocracy are likewise concerned over sexism and harassment getting "justified" in the encyclopedia. Their concern "looks" better to us (after all, the gamer gate stuff is disgusting, but that's a story for another time), so we might be more inclined to view the outing as a necessary journalistic evil. But I don't think we need to dig too far into the piece to see that characterization as strained. The run down on TD from that article is basically "look at this fucking loser", which is par for the course with outing articles. Protonk (talk) 19:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It's disappointing that nothing besides a lot of talk is going to come of this, but "The real world is the real world, but doxxing isn't some proportionate punishment meted out for sins, real or imagined. It's cowardly bullshit designed to chill speech and heap scorn on people from afar." I couldn't put it any better than that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Given that none of you are meant to be speechifying in relation to BLPs, either in articles or talkpages, then chilling of such speech would seem to be a good thing and in accordance with this site's principles. John lilburne (talk) 23:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@John lilburne: I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Protonk (talk) 23:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:BLPN is that-a-way. Doxxing people is not the way to correct BLP problems. In fact, the spirit of WP:BLP is that living persons should be treated with respect, and even Wikipedia editors are living persons. meta:Privacy is another of this site's principles. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to BLPs no one should be engaging in any form of agenda pushing. The talk page of Quinn is an object lesson in agenda pushing, attempts to get inappropriate sources accepted, character assassination, and wearisome arguing. Such speech has, according to the rules, no place here. If no one here will get the house in order and freeze it out don't complain when outside forces do the job for you all. John lilburne (talk) 23:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@John lilburne: I was outed for being an admin and having the "wrong" opinion on wikipedia BLP policy and expressing that opinion in RfCs and on project talk pages. Not discussing subjects or whatever else. My point above was about the entirely bullshit notion that getting doxxed by some random person with an axe to grind is karmic punishment for "bad" behavior. If it is, it is only so accidentally. The main function is to make the outed person look small and feel vulnerable. Protonk (talk) 23:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Well like most anything n the world, it isn't simply black or simply white; "doxxing" itself isn't an inherently evil act. It sounds like your situation was done to you out of vengefulness and spite, which isn't cool at all, and I sympathize if you were doing something good here. There are other situations, e.g. Qworty, where the revelation of an editor's identity was a good thing, as it unmasked some rather nefarious deeds. The right to privacy here isn't quite the same as a right to anonymity. Tarc (talk) 23:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

>Well like most anything n the world, it isn't simply black or simply white; "doxxing" itself isn't an inherently evil act.

It kind of is. If you have a specific criticism on someone, make that criticism. But doxxing is dumping a huge amount of info for the purposes of humiliation or intimidation. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 00:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it kind of isn't. Per my example above, Qworty was rightly shamed and driven from the project. That was about a textbook example of "good doxxing" as one can find. Tarc (talk) 01:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what Qworty was, but if he was being criticized for a specific set of behaviors that's not doxxing. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 20:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Given that it is my contention that anyone editing BLP content ought not to be anonymous, that at the very least they should have there contact details held on file by the WMF I'm hardly going to be sympathetic about the doxxing of an admin. Sometimes it might be karmic punishment, sometimes revenge, sometimes simply for the LOLZ, it makes no difference. People put controversial things online under their own name all the time without any ill consequences. You deal with any harassment as it happens and the WMF should protect those that are targeted, but having the RL identity of a WP administrator or participant in BLPs isn't harrassment. You are relying on security by obscurity, that is really the wrong way of doing it. Al most all of you can be doxxed by a determined set of people. John lilburne (talk) 09:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@Mangoe:: The real concern with it is A) it is against the rules, B) chilling effects, and C) that they doxxed someone else who, according to them, was underaged and (possibly) transgendered. As I noted, I don't actually care that they doxxed me in the abstract, but if they were Wikipedia users who were engaging in conversation with me on the article (they weren't) and they wrote an outside hit piece on me, that would obviously be an issue, no? Especially if they were willing to do it against people who, you know, did care. The allegations in the article were false in any event; indeed, it was noted that several of the revdels were done in error, because they were, in fact, sourced and thus probably weren't necessary. A couple of them were probably necessary, but they were not done maliciously, and we discussed it on the talk page. The rest of their accusations were... what, exactly? That I was fat and jealous of Zoe Quinn, despite not even working on video game development? Given that the discussions can be seen over on the talk pages for Zoe Quinn and GamerGate, you should really look there to see whether they're, well, just plain old wrong. As they are. They're angry more or less because their POV is that it is all sexist misogyny; they are fanatics. The reality is that the reliable sources paint a much more complicated picture, with claims of misogyny being only one side of the story - the other side being that it is about something else. Actually, it is really about five or six different stories at this point, because the reality is that more or less Zoe Quinn was the ignition point for a lot of pre-existing conflicts in the gaming community, regarding corruption, nepotism, misogyny, the so-called "social justice warriors", insulting gamers, general toxicity of the community, and several other things. It is kind of stupid. But, well, I edit stuff about current events sometimes. It just so happens that this is a particularly dumb one which ended up becoming huge thanks to early attempts at censorship causing the Streisand Effect. At this point, it is being noted by the Taiwanese press as being worrisome because they're afraid that if people don't make nice by the holiday season, it might negatively affect console sales because people will see the nastiness and choose not to buy consoles (whose components are sourced in Taiwan), and instead buy tablets (which are mostly made in China). All this, over a dumb fight on the internet. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:21, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I just read the Wikipediocracy blog piece that gave rise to this ANI thread. I'm no fan of insults to women's dignity, and I think that a lot of what is in the piece does a positive service (as indeed many of the blog pieces there do, in my opinion, because anything as big as Wikipedia can do with some skeptical watching). However, I think a useful thought experiment is to read the piece while mentally deleting all of the actual naming of editors. Go ahead, say someone is such-and-such years old, and they previously claimed to be such-and-such a gender, and so forth – but just leave out the personally identifying information. In terms of investigative journalism, the beneficial effect would have been exactly the same. But the addition of actually identifying private individuals (I wonder if someone could sue Wikipediocracy for defamation?) just makes it look like 4chan. Maybe the people at Wikipediocracy think that they are big impressive defenders of integrity who put Wikipedia's house in order, but to me the naming just makes them look like a couple of teenage bullies. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

This whole conversation almost makes me glad I didn't know better than to use my real name when registered 8 years ago, instead of User:MsSmartyPants or something appropriate. Of course it also makes me wonder what to do when such information is revealed and an editor is being disruptive or POV pushing to the max. I guess nothing, except some how or other let them know that you know? Hmmmmm... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:08, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Pudeo?

Um, regarding this edit, which some unknown "Pudeo" decided to harp on...you have it wrong. "outside eyes are finally getting in on this" referred to other Wikipedians who had never been a part of older discussions at 2014 Isla Vista killings, not anyone off-site. It has nothing to do with "doxxing", and doesn't even have a connection to the Gamergate stuff we're talking about here. Tarc (talk) 12:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. Titanium Dragon already corrected me on that. And heh, don't be so confused if "unknown" editors comment here - that's the reason why issues are posted to ANI in the first place. --Pudeo' 14:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

A question

If such an issue reveals that a Wikipedia user, through looking at their contributions to an external site, has a conflict of interest or other viewpoint that makes them incompatible with editing certain Wikipedia articles, is that sufficient reason to take action here? I'm not entirely sure if this has occurred before, but I'm sure it probably has. Black Kite (talk) 18:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

you're not sure but you're sure? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Well spotted. Typing at the same time as being harassed by daughter#1 to help with her Maths homework. Black Kite (talk) 18:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to ping/link and dredge up old drama, but yea, a year or so ago, Arbcom banned a user for edits made to Encyclopedia Dramatica regarding another Wikipedian. BTW, file an ANI on your kid for harassment, they'll send her to bed without supper. (in case there'a any confusion, yes, that is a joke) Tarc (talk) 19:40, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

In 2011, a user was indef blocked for canvassing on the men's rights site antimisandry.com and for using WP:Socks. The SPI was inconclusive but the off-wiki canvassing was too obvious to ignore. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Much as this sort of thing makes me uncomfortable, if the allegations that certain editors are pursuing an agenda against a BLP subject are true (I haven't evaluated the allegations beyond skimming the WO blog post), then I would say we most certainly should take action here. Most of us are here to build a neutral reference work. We get very hot under the collar about "paid editing" or "paid advocacy" but the corporate spammers are usually quite easy to spot and block. It seems to me that we should get much hotter under the collar about subtle, insidious campaigning which undermines our values of neutrality, especially when it is directed at subjects who are real people whose lives and personal and professional reputations could be affected by a slanted Wikipedia article. Or do we have to wait for another Seigenthaler incident and a knee-jerk reaction to adverse publicity? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:27, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

While that sounds wonderful, if we really go after all the subtle, insidious campaigning which undermines our values of neutrality in addition to the more obvious examples then there will be few editors left to contribute to this site.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

It would be a start to restrict BLP editing to editors who have demonstrated that they can edit biographies responsibly. (This could be a separate user right.) As it is, Wikipedia is throwing BLPs to the vultures to pick and fight over. Andreas JN466 03:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we take a binding vote on this right now? Also, could WP administrators please start enforcing the WP:NPOV policy? In my eight years here I don't think I've ever seen ad admin step up and openly enforce that policy. Cla68 (talk) 05:23, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Andreas, could that BLP user right be proposed somewhere? We could extend it to all BLPs (though it would stop mistakes from being fixed, including by the subject), or use it as a new layer of protection for any BLP deemed problematic. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 13:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Found your proposal on the mailing list, March 2011. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

This is an excellent idea. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

An intriguing idea. How does someone demonstrate that they can edit biographies responsibly when they're not allowed to edit them until they've demonstrated it? GoldenRing (talk) 06:12, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Submission of responsibly written and appropriately sourced biographies through AfC, for example, or solid research contributions to BLP talk pages. Andreas JN466 12:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, it still smells a lot like the established BLP club marking their turf. How is this consistent with the third pillar? GoldenRing (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not about marking turf; it's about making use of the flexibility demanded by the fifth pillar in order not to have fucked-up biographies that make a mockery of the second pillar and aren't consistent with anything in the Foundation's charitable mission. Andreas JN466 06:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You can get in trouble for your behavior off-site, and I think that's absolutely okay. And if you admit to being paid or whatever to edit articles, or otherwise engaging in behavior against the rules, using off-site posting as evidence is perfectly acceptable. That being said, we should not be barring people from articles simply because they have some sort of point of view; editors are allowed to have points of view. You have points of view, I have points of view, we all have points of view. That's fine. What is a problem is when it affects Wikipedia. The reality is that the people most likely to edit articles are people who are most interested in them, which is going to inevitably and invariably mean that they have a point of view on them. The problem comes when they're unable to act as responsible editors of Wikipedia. As long as they are WP:CIVIL, maintain a WP:NPOV in the articles (remember, editors can have points of view, but articles cannot), and otherwise behave within the rules, there's no reason to ban them. In any case, it would benefit people for making false aliases for the sole purpose of editing Wikipedia to make it impossible to trace back their opinions and thus result in such bans, which is highly undesirable - having traceability is both useful and worthwhile. Frankly, if you conduct yourself poorly on Wikipedia and you have an obvious point of view, we can deal with it easily enough - and indeed, more easily than if we institute such a thing.

It also would encourage people to write attack pieces like this if they were "rewarded" by getting revenge on people they didn't like, which would be extremely bad. You don't want to encourage negative behavior.

The fact that Tarc commented on that article approvingly, for instance, should not be grounds for banning him from editing those articles - but repeatedly calling people misogynists on the talk page and elsewhere would warrant action, because at that point, he'd be breaking actual rules (namely, against civility on Wikipedia). I don't care if he is pro-social justice, and neither should anyone else; the problem comes when it results in edit wars, incivility, excessive POV pushing, ect. which are all actions on Wikipedia.

We have rules against outing people and suchlike for a reason, and we definitely should not encourage people to do so. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:57, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

When editors actively push an agenda that could reasonably be construed as misogynistic, in tone or intent, said editors do not get to hide behind civility shields, I'm afraid. Tarc (talk) 12:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of anyone's agenda, WP:CIVIL is one of the Five Pillars and those who violate it are violating policy, I'm afraid. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:01, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

What if an editor admits to hacking into others computers? I'd be wary opening links posted by an editor like that, I think it puts other Wikipedia editors at risk --81.129.126.66 (talk) 15:40, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

If someone is admitting to engaging in illegal activity, at that point the police should be involved and I would recommend contacting the police/FBI/whatever agency is relevant in whatever country the user is from. People who post malicious/harmful links on Wikipedia tend to get banned rather quickly; reporting such incidents to admins is very important. Incidentally, if you are referring to the user who I think you're referring to with this, you can relax; the person who claims to be a hacker who uses the same username on various messageboards started using it back in 2007, while the Wikipedia user used a different handle until 2014, and they aren't the same gender; they're almost certainly different people, especially given the Wikipedia user's supposed age. A lot of people happen to have the same usernames on the internet; I may be the most prominent Titanium Dragon, for instance, but Titanium-Dragon (with the hyphen) on tumblr is not me, and there is a WoW clan which uses my name which I am unrelated to, having never even played the game. I've actually spoken to several folks who use my name over the years, making jokes with them about who the real one was. Titanium Dragon (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Your name consists of two common words, however. When someone's shared handle consists of a non-English word and exactly the same 3-digit number, and they have clearly the same interests (right down to individual people) on more than one website, then I can think we can pretty much assume they're the same person. Not to mention there has been further links posted off-wiki, which I won't repeat but are 100% convincing. Black Kite (talk) 19:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@Black Kite:: While I've been ignoring this because the issue has been resolved (and because I've been busy doing other, much more enjoyable things than argue with folks on Wikipedia), I will note that someone sent me a private message on Twitter which more or less confirms that said user is the same person. However, it also confirms that they're telling the truth on their profile; they identify as female, and have done so elsewhere since as of at least March of this year, using the same name and everything. As long as they're behaving themselves on Wikipedia, I don't really care who they "really are" and what they self identify as. If someone says that they're a lobster, I'm fine with that, as long as they don't try and edit all the articles about seafood to complain about the terrors of cooking their people alive and try to put seafood boil into Category:Genocide. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You're sure of that? [2] --81.129.126.66 (talk) 21:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

A new game and a suggestion

Anyone want to guess who User:PseudoSomething is? Black Kite (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

• Yeah, I know it's not difficult. Can I suggest, apart from the full protection and RD2 that is covering those four articles now, we simply indef any "new" editor who heads straight for those articles and starts with the misogynistic crap. There's only two possible reasons for it; they're a sock of another editor, or they're a meatpuppet. In neither case do I see that we're losing anything here. Black Kite (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Who am I supposed to be? Honestly? This is the first time I have ever made an account on Wikipedia. That is why I haven't even tried to touch the edit button on an article. I am trying to speak on behalf of the GG side because of a lot of the crap that has been said about us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PseudoSomething (talk • contribs) 18:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Familiarity with Wikipedia (i.e. linking, indenting, reliable sources) whilst claiming you don't really know how it works, and then heading straight for another editor with the same criticisms as other accounts. Oh, and a user page that says "I'm New". Please don't take us to be stupid people. Black Kite (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I still have no idea who you think I am. I link to things because you kinda need proof behind it. I indent because I see everyone else doing it, and you add 1 : on each time you want to post under someone. Its just formatting, and every site has different formatting. Why should I post if I am going to fuck up the formatting of a ton of other people? I said my say to Tarc because he was pushing a biased POV and North (I think that is their name), because of my concerns. I put "I am New" in my user profile because I thought you needed to have that made for you to have a talk page, in case anyone needed to post something on there. Your calling me out for studying the formatting of the site before posting, for linking proof behind what I say, and for something I made to try to make sure I am within the confides of communications. PseudoSomething (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Just another sock/meatpuppet arrived to try to ram the "angry gamer POV" into the articles in question, showing up with an instant familiarity with both the Wikipedia and who's who in discussions that precede his alleged "new" arrival. WP:RBI and keep an eye out for the next one. Tarc (talk) 19:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

So far, yall have called me a misogynist, a sockpuppet/meatpuppet (I dont even know what the hell a meat pupper is), have said my learning the protocols of Wikipedia before posting were bad, I havent even edited an article and didn't plan on it, and your trying to silence me. Wikipedia can do IP's right? Since you would only find this account on my home IP. Is this how all Wikipedia users are, or just a minority? I would think a minority, because the admin on the GamerGate page actually talked to me last night (or was it the night before), and listened to my say on things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PseudoSomething (talk • contribs) 19:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Meatpuppet: (noun). A person or persons canvassed offsite in an attempt to sway consensus in the meatpuppeteer's favor. Etymology: a sockpuppet made of meat. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 19:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

What, you knew what all these things about Wikipedia were straight away (to which we can add "pushing a biased POV" and a clear knowledge of Checkuser), but you didn't know what a meatpuppet was? That's poor research. Black Kite (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I knew what a biased POV is because I talked about biased POV when others try to explain about GamerGate without providing the right info. Its a Point of View that is biased. What is wrong with that? PseudoSomething (talk) 19:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I will note that while PS's contributions are likely from the push from outside WP to try to balance the article (eg a bit of meatpuppetry), they have not tried to edit war , haven't put BLP in the talk page, and are provided some food for thought when the article gets unlocked, which I'm happy to listen to and consider. Yes, some of the behavior is consistent with socks but without other evidence and signs of disruption, we can't do much either. --MASEM (t) 19:38, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for helping Masem, I felt incredibly alarmed when this happened and didn't know what to do, honestly. I am trying to see how I can help balance the article, and I didn't even want to edit the article because of me being on the other side. So thank you for helping, it kinda calmed my nerves on this whole thing. PseudoSomething (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Holy shit guys, this is the reason why Wikipedia becomes a closed garden of old boys and can't get new editors. Am I now supposed to roll my eyes every time the Wikipedia Signpost complains that new editor statistics are going the wrong way? The moment someone new comes along to a controversial topic that's obviously making internet headlines, people are quick to jump on them, use disparaging epithets like "angry gamer" (thanks Tarc), and accuse them of being the neckbeard nazis. Assume good faith, you have no idea whether or not they are a genuine editor or an agenda troll; if they really are new, lead them to the right path (you guys were once newcomers to Wikipedia as well, stop pretending you guys were born with the knowledge of how Wikipedia works), and if they really are trolls, then give them enough rope to let them hang themselves. What I'm seeing here is sickening. --benlisquare_T•C•E 19:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, AGF only goes so far. When a brand new editor comes to a - let's face it - in the scheme of things fairly obscure article, displays obvious knowledge of Wikipedia, and takes up a theme of righting great wrongs exactly where another editor hsas left it - to the point of attacking exactly the same people for exactly the same things - then you have to say, either this is the same person, or there is meatpuppetry going on. There is AGF, and then there is naivete. Black Kite (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't call me naïve, and don't spin the situation to make it look like what people here are doing is completely justified. The #GamerGate hashtag was the top trending tag on Twitter for a significant period of time, until it was dwarfed by the #Destiny hashtag for a day (albeit still remaining active, and still has been ever since Adam Baldwin started the trend). Everyone interested in videogames and their dog knows about GamerGate, it's hardly a niche topic. For a scandal of proportions like this, it's a no brainer that people with opinions will come to Wikipedia, create new accounts, and make posts on the talk page about their opinions on the matter. People are using the boogeyman tactic because it's a convenient one. AGF is your responsibility, as a member of this community. --benlisquare_T•C•E 09:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

And those people will immediately pick one of the other contributing editors out (who hasn't actually contributed since their account was created) and start attacking them in exactly the same way as previous accounts, will they? OK then, that's clearly a total coincidence. Silly me. Black Kite (talk) 17:29, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you benlisquare. I really came to try to have the voice of the other side heard because it was a controversial issue, but I didn't even think of editing the article because I am on the other side of the topic. I felt extremely alarmed and kinda felt like crap since I was being told I was a misogynist, sock puppet, and meat puppet days after I created an account, the mocking from them didn't help either. I gonna do my best to get up on the WP guidelines though and see what I can do. Thank you. PseudoSomething (talk) 20:14, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

FYI, between the actual doxxing, and the reporting of said doxxing, there might be a bunch of newbies on the article. So try not to WP:BITE the newbies. They're very likely to perceive it as censorship/harassment, seeing as that is the mentality they're likely coming from. If they don't understand stuff, be gentle. Dunno about this particular user, but people should try to be nice in general. Incidentally, the idea of the point of view and the neutral point of view being important are actually fairly well understood by many random folks on the internet who are completely unrelated to Wikipedia; they teach about it in school in the US. Indeed, one of the reasons that many of the gamers are so upset is precisely because they feel that many articles written by the gaming press do not adopt a neutral point of view. Just an FYI; familiarity with the NPOV is hardly surprising amongst this bunch. We may also see an influx of SJW types, who should be treated the same way as we treat the gamers. Titanium Dragon (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Titanium. I actually came before the doxxing, but wanted to make my voice heard about the other side, I didn't even think of editing the article. Your right though, Bias was just easily seen, and it was happening in the article. I didn't even want to edit it because I have bias on the other spectrum. I just wanted to provide the counter point of view.PseudoSomething (talk) 20:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I propose we site-ban Tutelary, Titanium Dragon and anyone else trying to smear the defamation of Quinn over this encyclopedia. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Add PseudoSomething to that list. I've just read through Talk:GamerGate. How much more time of genuine encyclopedia-builders is going to be consumed by these POV-pushers? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I propose that you stop proposing site bans for people who have committed the crime of commenting on a talk page. —Xezbeth (talk) 13:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You say that like I propose site bans all the time. I'm pretty sure it's the second time in 8 years I've ever made such a proposal. And I'm proposing they be banned because they're here trying to defame one of our BLP subjects. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd oppose such draconian bans. You're essentially silencing anyone who wishes to question the current state of the article, under the guise of "defamation". Exactly what defaming posts have these people made on the talk page? Above, there have been allegations by Black Kite that these users spew, quote, "misogynistic crap". Where exactly is this misogynistic crap on the talk page? I don't see it. I haven't seen any hate speech against women at all by these individuals; sure, they may have opinions that differ from other people, but that is not misogyny. I'd like to see you directly address and explain exactly what part of these editors' posts are so defamatory. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Not their defamation, the defamation and invasion of privacy that is the the root of this piece of misogynistic shit. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:13, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

"misogynistic shit" - again, you're throwing buzzwords at me, instead of explaining your position properly. What words have these editors said that justify a ban? Where have women been attacked? These editors are here because they believe that the page is imbalanced, and are trying to tell their personal opinions on the matter. Discussion is the core aspect of any constructive negotiation, you need to understand what they think while they need to understand what you think. Conveniently silencing them instead of addressing their points and refuting them is one of the most underhanded things you can do. Picture this: You are debating with an Armenian genocide denialist. Would you rather have a rational discussion with him, addressing each others' points, or would you prefer that he screams "AMERICAN IMPERIALIST DOG! TURKISH HISTORY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!" at you over and over again? Because that is exactly what's going on here. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

There is zero problem if the editors have a clear agenda, one that if they spelled it out, would be completely against BLP, but their behavior on wiki is all within the lines of BLP and they are not being disruptive or the like. If they are trying to back up what they think personally with claims from usable RS that support part of what they think and avoid delving into FRINGE, what is wrong with that? So far, save for a few IPs that were dealth with quickly, while I can easily read who is on what side and point out things we have to be careful with, there's no statements on the talk page against BLP, nor anyone being disruptive. AGF has to apply unless there's clearer evidence of a problem. --MASEM (t) 14:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean like restoring BLP violations on the Anita Sarkeesian page and IP gossip at Talk:Zoe Quinn or adding hearsay about the suicide of Amanda Todd or defending statements like this one about Amanda Filipacchi? I'm not sure if you consider the Journal of New Male Studies for Michael Kimmel's BLP or the ex-boyfriend's blog for Zoe Quinn's BLP "usable" sources, but Tutelary doesn't consider the sources unusable in those BLP contexts just because they're biased. Or how about the Men's Rights Agency? And that's not taking the information about the editor into consideration that would get me accused of "outing" them. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 17:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• I support a siteban for Tutelary per NOTHERE (in fact I was hoping the thread above would produce a consensus as to whether the off-wiki evidence can be used to justify a block). At most, I'd support a page/topic ban for Titanium Dragon because he seems to have an interest n contribution to Wikipedia beyond their slightly unhealthy fixation on this topic (though asking them to walk away voluntarily might have the same effect). I'm inclined to AGF (for now) on PseudoSomething (unless somebody wants to present more evidence), and I suggest we semi-protect all the pages (including talk pages) involved until this nonsense dies down an that admins closely monitor them and be prepared to sanction any editor who does not conduct themselves appropriately on those pages. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Talk pages should never be semi-protected if the mainspace article is protected. A good faith IP editor wants to fix a spelling error, but can't use {{edit semi-protected}}. What then? Wikipedia is supposed to be the free encyclopedia that anyone can contribute to, not your secret club of elite brothers. The administrative team is more than capable enough in dealing with troublemakers should they pop their heads out of the woodwork, blocking drive-by IP offenders who post any BLP-violating material on the relevant pages should be effective enough. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:22, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• My secret club of elite brothers? If I was running a secret club of elite brothers, I'd have one of my secret elite brothers secretly and elitely remove you from the secret, elite club and secretly and elitely oversight that comment so that I could secretly and elitely get my way. Oh, and they'd go to WP:RFED to ask a member of the secret club of elite brothers to secretly and elitely make the edit for them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Looking at both Tutelary's and Titanium Dragon's long-term edit history, they are not at all limited to this topic and especially in the case of Titanium Dragon I can't see he has even edited this topic before. Calling that an "unhealthy fixation" is simply false and incivil. I might add that one editor, who was in the other POV camp than Tutelary, did almost 500 edits related to Zoe Quinn/GamerGate in a few days. You're not calling him NOTHERE and fixated because...? It is also a bit nasty that doxxing is not taken with due seriousness and the thread is tried to turn into a boomerang just because you seem to personally disagree with their position in a content dispute. Get a grip, HJ Mitchell. --Pudeo' 15:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• What makes you think I gave a flying fuck about anyone's position in a content dispute? Editors should conduct themselves properly, both with regard to other editors and with regard to the subjects of articles, and if they don't, I have no qualms about sanctioning them. Oh, and in the case of Tutelary, pretending to be somebody else so you can push your POV is despicable and (in my opinion) ample grounds for a siteban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have -not- impersonated anyone else, my name is Danielle and I am a woman, and you referring to me by male pronouns is especially offensive given that the only institution to express that view is Wikipediocracy, the institution which doxed me. Please don't do it again. Oh, and how is expressing a different opinion 'POV pushing'? Do you have any on-site proof of this at all? Period? Tutelary (talk) 15:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Where have I referred to you using male pronouns? If I have, it was unintentional—I try to make a point of using gender-neutral pronouns except where I know somebody has a preference. As to "on-site proof", that is precisely the point of this discussion, isn't it? If there was sufficient on-wiki evidence, you'd be indef'd right now; we're currently discussing whether the off-wiki evidence is sufficient presents grounds to ban you. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Taking into account benlinsquare's sage advice, I'll now support the very wise HJ Mitchell's more modest suggestion (minus the talk page semi-protection, per benlinsquare, again). --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You're going to support site banning me? If anything other than doxxing me and harassing me, what did the Wikipediocracy state? They looked into where I edited the most. That's -nothing- in support of a sanction. I'm sure that a good amount of people have tons of edits to Barrack Obama's article, yet unless there is any problems with those edits, they should absolutely not be sanctioned for merely being active on those pages. Expressing a different opinion than other editors on an article/talk page is also not a crime that is punishable by death. Obvious oppose by me. Tutelary (talk) 15:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Is that you posting on the hacking forum? What is the risk that you might hack other editors here and steal their bank details in that case? --109.148.125.244 (talk) 16:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary

• Given the extremely convincing evidence posted elsewhere, Tutelary needs, at the very least, a topic ban from any BLP. Frankly a site ban would be easier, but this is a minimum. I do not see an urgent issue with Titanium Dragon at this moment - they have moved away from the problems which led to their previous edits being rev-deleted. If you respond to this with a Support, please identify your preferred sanction. Thanks. Black Kite (talk) 17:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)m

What is the 'extremely convincing evidence' which you seem to have not posted? There needs to be extremely convincing evidence to justify sanctions against me, and I have not seen a single argument presented or a single set of diffs that I am disruptive in any way shape or form. There needs to be -evidence- and there is an extreme lack there of to justify sanctions. Obvious oppose. Tutelary (talk) 18:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban with urging to edit somewhere less controversial. KonveyorBelt 17:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support siteban/indefinite block (as above). If and only if that's not possible, I'd support a BLP ban, though it's woefully inadequate. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose What an awesome bandwagon. Something that is posted "elsewhere" but is not linked to from here cannot be used as justification here. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Wrong, per precedent. Black Kite (talk) 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose insufficient evidence, has a very short block log (one short block that was good-faith unblocked). Just because someone has edited BLP articles and some of that information has been removed on BLP grounds (you know many living persons are controversial, right?) there's no reason and even so there is no pattern here. It is also disturbing that somehow this ANI thread (that wasn't even started by Tutelary) has become an absurd boomerang with no protection for those who were the targets of the doxxing, even using the doxxing article alleged information for borderline-harrassment. Exactly what related to GamerGate would warrant the topic here? How is this vote related to this ANI thread? --Pudeo' 19:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. Knowing full well that this will probably only mean they'll be back with another account tomorrow. (Will support BLP topic ban if and only if site ban does not pass.) Andreas JN466 19:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• What evidence or implications there are that this user has been involved in sockpuppeting or would do so? --Pudeo' 20:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Anything to pry one of the misogynist warriors away from the battleground is a good move, as this user is clearly here to see that their anti-Quinn/Sarkeesian, etc... point-of-view is represented in their respective WP:BLP]]s. Tarc (talk) 20:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

  "One of the misogynist warriors"? You have been already asked to remain civil in this ANI thread by Titanium Dragon and by Drmies but now you have moved into direct personal attacks. Perhaps it's you who needs a cooldown. --Pudeo' 20:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• This Drmies sees no personal attack here. Drmies (talk) 03:51, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I personally find the off-wiki evidence intriguing but ultimately circumstantial. That being said, Tutelary's on-wiki behavior has been unacceptable, as mentioned by User:Sonicyouth86 above. With defamatory edits like this and even taking someone to ANI for removing similar edits, she clearly shouldn't be editing BLP articles. And her pushing of unreliable sources shows she probably shouldn't be editing at all. Woodroar (talk) 21:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Your first diff was posted by an IP, not by me and the ANI was to make sure that the administrator was within his right to remove the section, and I closed it myself because it ultimately was. I don't see how that is ultimately disruptive to the project and deserving an indefinite BLP topic ban. Tutelary (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Defamatory material was removed on BLP grounds and you chose to restore it, which is no different from adding it yourself. That you had to take it to ANI rather than read WP:BLP is disruption to the project. Woodroar (talk) 21:20, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

This is rather weak. Coming to ANI for clarification and accepting the decision should not be considered disruption. If it were, any administrative action review which gets upheld would be considered disruption and would lead to sanctions for the person bringing up the review. --Kyohyi (talk) 21:23, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

ANI shouldn't be a "is this really policy?" Get Out of Jail Free card, though it often works as a final reminder for editors willing to change. That ANI was in July. Restoring the defamatory material was in August. This is now a recurring issue. Woodroar (talk) 22:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Opposed. WP:HARASS 72.89.93.110 (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban for the reasons stated here. I think that a minimum of trust is required for interactions among editors and I don't know how the community is supposed to react when Tutelary edits particular BLPs and articles about websites like Reddit or when they write about what they – as a woman – were able to "shrug off". Feigning collective ignorance can't be the desired solution. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support per HJMitchell. I'd prefer an indef block/site ban but in the very least a BLP ban for Tutelary needs to brought into effect--Cailil ^talk 21:44, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose The evidence brought here seems to be about good faith disagreements mostly. No evidence is presented of actual editing of articles in an inappropriate fashion. Just say no to lynch mobs.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Question. I want to ask for the exact evidence for this proposal. There are editors whose judgment I respect who are supporting here, and I have no use for people who intentionally defame BLP subjects or edit in a misogynistic manner, so I am not (yet) arguing against the proposal. But, somewhat per the subsection just below, I'm unclear as to the reasons. First of all, I oppose enacting any sanctions on the basis of "evidence" posted elsewhere. If Wikipediocracy presents evidence of disruption on Wikipedia, please show the diffs here. Beyond that, it seems to me that editors are citing diffs presented by Sonicyouth86, including: [3], which does strike me as containing some BLP violation, but it's the only diff like that that I've seen so far, and by itself it isn't enough for sanctions. The other links provided go either to edits where I don't see a problem (but I might be missing something), or to discussions where I might disagree with Tutelary, but I do not see evidence of working against consensus, just of expressing dissenting opinions. This is a real question, and again, I haven't prejudged this, but I'd like the editors who support bans to provide the exact evidence. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It is likely there are many more, but they have been revdeled. KonveyorBelt 22:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a good point, but please at least point to edit histories where that has happened. If I were to see a whole bunch of edits by Tutelary that were revdeled, I'd AGF that the revdels were appropriate, and that would be evidence that would convince me. But the statement that it is "likely" needs to be backed up. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The page history of Talk:Zoe Quinn, for example, from 11:05, August 23, 2014‎ to 12:18, August 23, 2014‎ was revdeled. KonveyorBelt 22:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I have just examined the entire edit histories of Zoe Quinn and Talk:Zoe Quinn, from the creation of the page up to the present. There are depressingly many revdeled edits by other editors, which makes me wonder why we aren't looking at some of them (and of course I cannot know about anything that was suppressed/oversighted). On the page, zero of the many revdeled edits were by Tutelary. On the talk page, three of the many revdeled edits were by Tutelary, and in all three cases, the revdeled sequence begins with an edit by someone else, so I cannot see whether Tutelary's edits worsened the situation or not; in one case, I see Tutelary reverting Mr. Stradivarius, so that might have been restoring objectionable material, but I do not know that for sure. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It occurs to me that I ought to ask: Mr. Stradivarius, what do you recollect about that revdeled edit? --Tryptofish (talk) 01:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: It was a proposed section for the article entitled "Scandal", five paragraphs long, written by Titanium Dragon. It was mostly well sourced and mostly neutral, but, in my opinion, some of the key phrases about Quinn were not neutral, and some of the sources used were not reliable. I thought that the problems were enough that it should be removed from the talk page. It was not so problematic that I would consider it as a base for any sanctions proposed here, though. I did think that removing it would be seen as being heavy-handed - and I was right - but I thought that it should be removed anyway. The edit itself was revdelled, not oversighted, so I can still access it. I can email it to you so that you can look at it yourself, if you like. (I see that you haven't set email in your preferences, but if you email me, I can email you back with the section.) — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 05:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Mr. Strad, thanks so much. That explanation is very helpful to me. And is it any wonder, in this context, why I don't enable e-mail and I take so many other precautions about my privacy?! No, there's no need to e-mail it to me. I'm seeing a very consistent pattern here, of Tutelary reacting to edits on talk pages by other editors. The other editors make what I think are helpful edits, reverting content that might violate BLP or reverting images that might be offensive, or closing discussions. Tutelary repeatedly objects to those things, and reverts them. If one looks at the incidences in which Tutelary has actually done something objectionable (in my opinion, at least), it always involves reverting someone else in talk space. Always. The obnoxious or BLP-violating material always starts with another editor, and sometimes that other editor is Titanium Dragon. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: Are you satisfied with Mr. Strad's explanation of what was removed? Nothing which got revdeled from me was posted in bad faith, and all of it was sourced (though, as he noted, he didn't like some of the sources - and at the time, which was fairly early on in the whole thing, the selection of sources was fairly mediocre). It wasn't me randomly attacking Zoe Quinn; it was an attempt at improving the article, and it was all done in good faith. I've reviewed the WP:BLPNAME policy and other related policies since and I think we've all been doing a lot better on it. If you aren't aware, a lot of the problem is that the whole thing started out with Zoe Quinn's ex making a very angry blog post about her being involved with other people, but who she was involved with ended up triggering a bunch of very angry gamers to accuse her and those she was involved with of being corrupt (which actually ended up getting an official response from Kotaku, who employed one of the people involved - several sites also later went on to change their ethics policies to address some of the other issues which ended up being raised). Obviously the whole thing is rife with WP:BLP issues, seeing as it is about living people, and a lot of the really nasty stuff is fundamentally a stupid fight on the internet which ended up blowing up to the point of being noted by the wider press due to some attempts at censorship triggering the Streisand Effect, but given that the inciting incident is important to understanding the issue, it is hard to discuss the whole thing without mentioning it. It is obviously a sensitive subject and is a lot of "fun" to word right, but is also attested in dozens if not hundreds of potential sources at this point, and is noted as being the trigger for the whole thing, which probably helps us now as we can cite Forbes instead of a semi-obscure gaming website. Strad felt some of it wasn't neutrally worded and might be a BLP violation and revdeled it; we've since dealt with things a bit better, I think, and managed to see how to discuss said material on the talk page without issues with BLP. It probably also helps that it ended up in a LOT more sources after the initial discussion. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Titanium Dragon, those are certainly arguments that I am open to considering, especially because I think that accusations are being thrown around carelessly and I don't want to see anyone get railroaded here. I'm at a disadvantage, because I'm not an admin and I cannot see the revdeled edits, so I certainly think that there is room for more discussion. At the same time, I didn't base what I said on a single incident. In looking over edit histories (and initially looking in terms of Tutelary), I kept seeing you getting revdeled again and again. It's been happening a lot. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

That was about Titanium Dragon's suggestions, which were based on some reliable sources, though some were questioned. He just did not provide the sources in the initial suggestion and so the section got removed.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can tell there was an incident that was about someone other than Tutelary where Tutelary just happened to be caught in the middle. The only other instance seems to have been a rapid Huggle reverting of unexplained blanking by an IP on a non-BLP article where the blanking did have a legitimate BLP basis, albeit not explained. Nothing I have seen suggests the kind of editing warranting such severe sanctions. I actually see one instance of Tutelary reverting alleged BLP violations on Quinn's page. None of this suggests a strong case for sanctions.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support siteban. Tutelary joined the gender gap task force, then sought to represent a woman's perspective in discussions on various pages (invariably posting against women's interests – e.g. "Fellow female editor here ... People here are getting mad that a woman's breast is depicted and I'm not sure why." [4]), while posting misogynist material offwiki. (This can be deduced from his contributions history and early account name.) If a white editor were to join a group on WP aimed at increasing racial diversity, maintain he was black himself, act disruptively around BLPs about black people, and post racism elsewhere, he'd be site-banned. (But if a siteban doesn't go through, then I support a BLP topic ban.) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• We don't ban people for telling a few off-color jokes on Reddit.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I find the comment at Jimbo's talkpage offensive, myself. Here are all the edits made by Tutelary at the task force: [5]. I've gone through every one of them, and I don't see problems there, although there seems to be a lot of objecting to closing of discussion threads. I think we have to be careful about basing bans on posts supposedly made at other websites. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per the evidence given, to be fair here a topic ban is not forever if the editor in question can win back the trust of the community over time then I see no reason why it couldn't be lifted in the future. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• About that evidence, what I see so far is [6] and [7]. Is there anything else? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Before the ANI, there was pushing to include gossip at Talk:Suicide of Amanda Todd. And before that, it was the statement that it's only a BLP violation if it happens on the BLP page. Woodroar (talk) 00:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I've done a lot of editing at "Suicide of..." pages. I looked at the Amanda Todd talk page, and although I do see some indication of edit warring, it looks to me like what you call gossip was based on some British news sources saying that the cause of death was hanging, and there was a content dispute about whether the page should include the possible cause of death, or leave it out. And the diff about BLP violation does not actually say what you attribute to it, and seems to me to be more nuanced than that. Again, I still have an open mind, and I am interested in whether I'm simply missing something. And based on the Zoe Quinn page history, I wonder why we aren't looking at sanctions against other editors, because there sure were a lot of revdeled edits there. But each time I ask for evidence, and only get weak stuff like this, I become increasingly concerned that the evidence is pretty thin. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - Per the Private Manning precedent, if this user wants to identify as a woman named "Danielle," then this editor is a woman named Danielle, QED — at least that's the majority view of the nature of gender according to participants in that debate. Not my own perspective of gender but hey, majority: As ye sow, etc. As for the specifics of this incident, based on a diff cited above from the Zoe Quinn talk page, I favor a very narrow ban of this user from the Zoe Quinn biography. The call for a site ban by SlimVirgin above seems a gross overreaction — straight to the death penalty. Carrite (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I said this above, and had an edit conflict, but I'll repeat it here: And based on the Zoe Quinn page history, I wonder why we aren't looking at sanctions against other editors, because there sure were a lot of revdeled edits there. Really, there's another editor whose name came up earlier in this ANI thread, who has had a lot of edits revdeled at the Zoe Quinn page. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, the rev-del was done because the statements about the controversy on talk were not directly sourced, even though numerous sources existed to back the statements. So, if that is the case, then I don't think any action is really warranted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose- basically, per Tryptofish. Those clamoring for a ban have simply not provided any evidence that this is necessary, despite several requests. I think the grounds for a ban are very flimsy, and appear to be based on a personal dislike for Tutelary and their political opinions rather than any actual misbehaviour, and I oppose at this time. Reyk _YO! 01:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support' topic ban for Tutelary, Titanium Dragon, Puedo. Most of the time on this page we have a problem with people who are alleged to be good content creators but cannot be civil or collaborative. Here we have editors who, at least in their dealings with me, have been respectful and civil but are unable to create content within the bounds of the rules of Wikipedia. Editors on this talk page have advocated edits that run counter to fundamental rules of the encyclopedia like RS and BLP. They have challenged first-rate sources like The New Yorker and Time using arguments that amount to conspiracy theories based on Tweets while advocating the use of poor sources, blogs, and forum posts. While, to their credit, they have expressed a desire to conform to our rules, an article involving a vulnerable target of harassment and the focus of intense media attention is too important and sensitive to serve as a learning space for editors struggling to grasp our basic policies. It is a mistake to frame this in a legalistic way, as a "conviction" for bad behavior where editors produce or challenge the "evidence" of their "crime" This is just a way of saying "you aren't ready for this article yet, please edit something else while you get the hang of how things work." Gamaliel (talk) 01:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

In the edit history for Zoe Quinn, Tutelary has made a lot of edits, and none of them has been revdeled (I'm not talking about the talk page here). Titanium Dragon has also made a lot of edits, and over and over, they do get revdeled. Puedo has not edited the page. I'm still trying to fully understand this, but it seems to me that Titanium Dragon has been the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think I may have confused Puedo with someone else. Striking until I have time to review the relevant articles fully. You should also look at GamerGate and related articles. Gamaliel (talk) 05:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

What Trytofish said is true, I haven't edited either the talk or article pages of Zoe Quinn/GamerGate at all. I have been commenting things related to feminism/MRM, but very rarely done actual article space edits. To be honest, you probably just support bans for editors whose point-of-view you disagree with. I think it's evident from some of the other support-votes too. --Pudeo' 12:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for mistakenly including you, but one mistaken, unsupported allegation does not justify you making another evidence-free claim. You should step away from this issue if you cannot refrain from making broad, unsupported claims about the motives of numerous other editors. WP:AGF, please. Gamaliel (talk) 14:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Gamaliel. If there is something specific you'd like me to see at GamerGate, please provide a diff. I went through the entire edit history of the page and the talk page, and looked for revdeled edits. Although Tutelary made many edits, none of them appear to have been revdeled (again, I don't know about suppression/oversight). But, again, I do see Titanium Dragon having been revdeled. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban. Claiming to be a woman while posting misogynist comments. [8] Edit warring to restore inappropriate misogynist image. [9] then joining gender gap group. —Neotarf (talk) 01:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Cleavage is not misogynistic and . . . wasn't the whole discussion about the image? Seems like it was put there by a critic literally illustrating the problem with a ridiculously tactless decision by a Signpost writer.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I do not know if this person identifies as trans-sexual so it is best to be careful here, if they don't though which the editor in question gave no indication in this case then I understand why it would cause others to be upset. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

About those two diffs, [10] does not seem to be a problem to me, but [11] does. For me, that makes a third problematic diff. And I've already pointed out that there does not really seem to be a problem at the gender gap page – although I am starting to think that there may be an issue with talk page reverts. Perhaps there should be an editing restriction against reverting in talk space, other than self-reverts. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The person who started the thread on Jimbo's talk and posted the image did it to criticize the usage of the image here. I don't think that is a serious problem.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't, TDA? At this point, I deeply regret supporting your bid for Arbcom. I won't make that mistake again. —Neotarf (talk) 05:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You are suggesting a site ban because someone restored an image of boobs in a discussion that was about said image of boobs and claiming the image of boobs was misogynistic. I find that more silly than serious.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You should read that whole thread, TDA, there's a lot more to it. But of course we won't be able to discourage women from joining the project by just posting a link to a disputed thumbnail image. In order to convince them that Wikipedia is just a bunch of predatory neckbeards who want to interact with them with only one hand on the keyboard, you have to actually re-post the image at a larger size, on a talk page with 3,169 page watchers, and make locker room comments about it. And above all, just keep arguing and reverting, after the image has been removed multiple times by multiple editors. —Neotarf (talk) 16:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess locker room talk has gotten a lot more tactful than I remember . . .--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Didn't read the edit summaries, didja. Or the in-line comments you can only see in edit mode. Hmm, I see you have typed the word "boobs" three times...—Neotarf (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I read the summaries and saw the in-line comment too. How many locker room conversations have you heard exactly Neo? Anyway, if you want to continue this discussion of boobs, then perhaps you should go to my talk page. There you can feel free to talk with me about boobs all day.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose So we can't out anyone here but if someone else does the dirty work we'll take it at face value and ban people on the say-so of someone who has a blog about wikipedia. Why not just hand the editors over there the mop? If you want to ban someone do it on the merits, not some low rent horseshit from some random website. Protonk (talk) 02:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually the administrators over there have been handing in their mops lately, interpret that as you will. Carrite (talk) 04:54, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban only. At an article I was helping help build, Tutelary removed well-sourced content. In my experience, that is one of the clearest indicators of activist editing (please take note of this, administrators, so you can start enforcing the WP:NPOV policy). However, when I opined on the talk page that I thought the section was fine, Tutelary ceased objecting to it. So, I think it's ok for her to continue editing the topics she takes an interest in, EXCEPT for BLPs, because with BLPs there is just no room for activist editing. People's lives are at stake. Cla68 (talk) 05:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose Tutelary does have a problem on talk pages with NPOV can affect her interpretation of sources. That said, I've not seen anything bad faith and I've not seen an active agenda pushing on mainspace. A short BLP topic ban may let her cool her boots but I think a civil explanation of what she's doing wrong, why its wrong and how to do it right would go a lot further to solving the problem. SPACKlick (talk) 08:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support With the additions they made to Zoe and Anitas pages, plus Tutelarys support of The Fappening articles, I find it hard to believe that this person respects the women whose articles they edit. I would suggest a BLP ban, or at the very least, one for the articles for women, as this editor seems to have no desire to break WP:BLP for articles with male subjects --109.148.125.223 (talk) 11:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is further evidence that Tutelary understands how WP:BLP works but only chooses to enforce it when it concerns men [12]. I am sure that a BLP ban for the articles of women only would suffice here --109.148.126.200 (talk) 15:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I was holding off posting this but I really think admins should see this link where a user called Tutelary acknowledges hacking a persons computer and stealing information [13] - you can read one of the images linked here [14]. Tutelary themselves has wrote an article on this website here [15], so I would say it's likely they are the same Tutelary. This is pretty crucial, as often editors email each other using links provided in the user space, a medium which would allow a user to spread malware through email attachments. For an editor who edits in politically charged areas, this could cause problems in the future --109.148.126.200 (talk) 22:09, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Hardly any evidence, people are often wrong in BLP, they happen to add just anything. I would just hope that this proposal would enforce Tutelary to learn some more. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong oppose on site ban. People calling for her to be banned for editing based on political beliefs is absurd. Anyone is allowed to freely edit as long as they don't force their views upon other editors and be disruptive. I support a short topic ban on BLP per SPACKlick's proposal above. Wikipedia isn't a political arena. Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 18:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Support per SlimVirgin. Her analogy is apt, and appropriate. Site ban massively preferred. Topic ban (from everything BLP related, not just BLP articles) at the very least. Begoon ^talk 18:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban, per precedent of the Essjay controversy. In case you don't recall, Essjay was a highly trusted user that pretended to be a professor of theology to gain advantage in editing arguments. I have been convinced by the evidence presented by Nw on Wikipediocracy that our User:Tutelary is a male pretending to be a female to gain advantage in a "war against the feminists" on Wikipedia. I can't link to the evidence myself (an earlier support was removed by Tutelary and later oversighted on request from Tutelary although it didn't link to any personal information) but it is convincing that our Tutelary is the same Tutelary who writes about being "a guy" pretending to be a "a girl" in order to insert RATs, specifically Darkcomet. Our Tutelary added information about Darkcomet to our Remote administration software article.[16] It is convincing that our Tutelary, former User:Ging287 is the same Ging287 who complains about the "gyrocentric POV" on Wikipedia. Our Tutelary then claims to be a woman to defend posting a large bosom on the main page.[17] Nothing wrong with holding political beliefs, but per the Essjay precedent, pretending to be a woman to gain advantage in editing disputes is ban worthy. --GRuban (talk) 19:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment for anyone a bit confused at what happened there, Tutelary removed a post which linked to his activities on Reddit and elsewhere. If that's not allowed, I'll just quote this one (bear in mind that he is still pretending to be female on Wikipedia) "The exploit ONLY works for Yahoo messenger, sorry I didn’t mention that. But it’s good for pretending to be a girl, all it takes is, “Hey, wanna see me naked? <3" and you've got another slave.". Cheers, Black Kite (talk) 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Black Kite:, I am a female and I consider it harassment to continue to refer to me by male pronouns. I am a girl, and I'm going to respectfully ask that you refer to me as such. And where did you get that quote? I'm a bit confused by it, namely the terms of 'slaves' and 'exploits and are you supposing I said it somewhere? Tutelary (talk) 19:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

OK - to be clear, are you clearly stating that you are not the person on those two external sites with exactly the same username as your previous one here, and who is interested in exactly the same issues, with exactly the same viewpoints, on those forums as you are on here? If so, how do you explain that astonishing coincidence? I will be quite happy to apologise and withdraw if you can do that. Black Kite (talk) 19:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't answer if you don't provide the names of the sites. But please don't link them here, but say their names. I can do my own sleuthing to find the account links. Tutelary (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Since the title of this section is "Wikipediocracy doxxing", perhaps I can suggest you read their article and the comments on it? Oh hang on, I can see from the above postings that you have actually read it. Which means you do know the names of the sites. Here's a fact for you - we're not idiots here Black Kite (talk) 19:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I have not read the comments since the first day because they were all constantly making salacious and offensive comments about me and my supposed off site connections. Plus, as I mentioned within the 'it should be noted' section my heart pressure was spiked and my heart was pacing every single time I thought about it. It's still bad right now, but manageable. I figured that if I continued looking at the article and subsequent comments I would have panic attacks. So I didn't. I did know about Reddit but not the bit about Hackforums. I have accounts on neither. Also, Is that why everybody is getting their pitchforks? Because there's somebody with the same name as me on Hackforums and Reddit and think it's me? Oh, and because I had that sandbox article? Well I think I can cut this straight right now. I began to write that article because Hackforums is one of those 'underground' hacker forums that constantly gets well-deserved flak when actually written about in RS, yet hasn't had an article as of yet. I also found it somewhat stupid that people would register on it and brag about their illegal activities, and they deserve what they get coming to them. Anywho, I never actually submitted it because I talked to the protecting administrator (who fully protected the title because members of the site were subsequently spamming the site which was obviously not notable at the time on Wikipedia) who said the article was not up to par. The only reason it was on my radar even is because Miss Teen America got hacked by a member from the forum and googling 'Hackforums wikipedia' came up nothing so I wantd to write the article. Tutelary (talk) 20:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Reddit user Ging287 discussed this revert on Reddit 5 months ago with another Redditor, who complained that that edit reverted an addition he had made. Redditor Ging287 said: "Hello. I was the one who reverted your edit. It was due to the specific wording that you attempted to use." At the time, Ging287 was Tutelary's user name here. More such parallels between Ging287's discussions of Wikipedia on Reddit and Ging287's/Tutelary's edits here can easily be found. Andreas JN466 20:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It is worth noting that this Reddit post, where Redditor Ging287 claimed ownership of Tutelary's edit here, has now been deleted on Reddit (though an archive copy is available). This seems like another remarkable coincidence, and I do not believe Tutelary's comment above, "I have accounts on neither", was truthful. There has been some discussion of this on my user talk page. Andreas JN466 19:26, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you seriously baiting editors to restore the diff link for the quote so that you can have their answer oversighted again and maybe have them blocked? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 19:34, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a loaded question, like 'Have you stopped beating your wife?' I've done nothing of the sort, but it appears that since Black Kite is the one that proposed this whole thing, it should be a given that I should understand their position, including where I supposedly said something. Tutelary (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

One of the two accounts was on Hackforums. You know, the one you're writing a sandbox article about. User:Tutelary/sandbox/Hackforums. By complete coincidence. --GRuban (talk) 19:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary, you deleted the comment that contained the diff for the quote. Then you had the comment and the diff oversighted. And now you innocently request that someone tell you where you said that stuff about pretending to be a woman. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

If you're confused by the term 'slaves', User:Tutelary, you should read the excellent explanation of that term added to Wikipedia by User:Tutelary here. Andreas JN466 20:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I really just forgot about the article since talking to the protecting admin and just let it be. I don't remember things forever, especially things I wrote 3 and a half months ago. Tutelary (talk) 20:14, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I see you write above your first name is Danielle? The user Tutelary on Hackforums actually uses the same name in one thread. Not the thread he writes "I am a guy" in. Uses the last name and everything. The same last name you use in an account on a Wikipedia-related site that I guess you will admit is you. Weird coincidence, huh? --GRuban (talk) 20:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Black Kite, I had asked for clarification, so thank you for expanding on it here. At this point, I can pretty much see what is going on here. I don't know if what it says at Wikipediocracy is true or not, but I'd speculate that the odds are greater than 50% that it more or less is true. What neither Black Kite nor anyone else has been able to provide are diffs of Tutelary actually adding BLP-violating material to mainspace pages. So, for the sake of conversation, let's just suppose that Tutelary is, hypothetically, a horrible person in the real world. When people who are horrible people in the real world come to Wikipedia and act disruptively, we sanction them for the disruption. But if we were to ban every Wikipedia editor who is a messed-up person in real life, based on who they are in real life and not on something that can be documented by diffs here, well, there would be a lot fewer longtime editors here. And if we ban them for not being who they claim to be, well, I claim to be a fish, but I don't make disruptive edits. I do see some things that Tutelary has done that merit some kind of action, but I don't want to base it on WP:ASPERSIONS. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not Black Kite, but for me, I'm not asking Tutelary be banned for being a horrible person in the real world, just on Wikipedia. I'm asking Tutelary be banned for writing "as a woman I say X", multiple times, in editing discussions where being a woman clearly gave cachet, when it seems Tutelary's not a woman ... (and was expressing an opinion counter to that of most women in the discussion). That's basic disruption of Wikipedia, and it's what Essjay controversy was about. Women have it tough enough on Wikipedia, that having "a guy" pretend to be one of them to disrupt discussion is pretty bad. --GRuban (talk) 20:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

^^^This. We want to remove the gender gap? Well, remove people playing juvenile impersonation games to undermine those efforts. Simple. Begoon ^talk 20:58, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

GRuban, you raise an issue that I care about very much. But if I parse what you said, you object to Tutelary gaining cachet based on what may well be a false persona, and to a lesser extent to Tutelary "expressing an opinion counter to that of most women in the discussion". I hope that it's obvious that we shouldn't ban editors for expressing unpopular opinions, with respect to that last part. As for the main part of your concern, I'm in favor of some editing restrictions in talk space, but I think that there is little likelihood of "cachet" going forward, and "cachet" is in the eye of the beholder anyway. Editors are free, going forward, to assign Tutelary's opinions the same value they might give to a male editor's opinions, instead of a female editor's opinions – and I hope that you can see the pitfalls of even treating those opinions differently in the first place. But, again, I do note that there are talk space problems, noting also that everything cited below by Cúchullain is also in talk space. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:08, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's like saying that someone who is known to use sock puppets to comment 5 times in a discussion under different names shouldn't be banned because from this point forward editors would be free to ignore 4 of them. We should and do ban people for Wikipedia:Sock puppetry, and we did ban Essjay for pretending to be a professor of theology in arguments where that matters, and we should ban Tutelary for pretending to be a woman in arguments where that matters. Discussion is very valuable for us. I have nothing against someone expressing an unpopular opinion, (you'll notice I didn't weigh in on the bosom discussion!) but when that someone says "I'm a member of group X, so my opinion is extra valuable", and they're not, that's just as fundamental disruption as WP:SOCK: "attempts to deceive or mislead other editors, disrupt discussions, distort consensus". It's just the same if they wrote their opinion 5 times under different names, or if they claimed to be a professor of theology in a topic where that would matter. It's a ban-worthy offense. --GRuban (talk) 21:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that your analogy is flawed. A sock-er gains multiple !votes, and that's very disruptive. Someone who says "I'm a member of group X, so my opinion is extra valuable", is only disruptive to the extent that other editors accept as true that claim of extra value. I edit, for example, many neuroscience pages and it just so happens (so I claim!) that I've been a neuroscience professor in real life. But, even though I just said that here, I never say that in talk page discussions on those pages (except one time when I declined a request to comment because of a COI). That's because I don't care if some editor is a Nobel Laureate – if they make a bad edit, I'll revert it. And if a schoolchild makes a good edit, I'll support it. This isn't the same thing as Essjay, because Essjay parlayed the misrepresentation into advanced permissions. And, in fact, you haven't really proved that Tutelary isn't a trans woman. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

!votes? There was no !voting in the bosom photos discussion, there was merely a decision - should we have a photo of a bosom on the main page? And since arguably the main issue there was "is it offensive to women?" - the voice of someone who said they were a woman was easily worth 5 who said they weren't. Same for joining the Gender Gap project - the voice of an editor claiming to be a woman is easily more valuable in getting more women to join than any number of people who don't claim to be women. Sure, we haven't "proved" Tutelary isn't a trans woman; but we can hardly do a DNA analysis. We have proven she's a troll, who happily claims to be "a girl" to install RATs, then says she's "a guy". I think that's plenty indicative she's a similar troll who claims to be "a girl" (this time quoting her above!) to disrupt Wikipedia. See SlimVirgin's analogy of someone claiming to be black when joining a racial diversity project. --GRuban (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the analogy is WP:ASPERSIONS. If it makes you feel any better about my position, I do support restrictions on Tutelary in talk space. Sincerely, I really do care about making Wikipedia a more welcoming place, but I think that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban (or a fallback to feminism and BLP ban) per Essjay controversy. Pretending to be someone who you are not for the benefit of winning debates and pushing an anti-feminist POV does not engender trust. Although oversighted, the evidence is fairly clear. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2014 (UTC) Per a request by Tutelary, I will edit my comment to say that I find this user highly untrustworthy due to off-site behavior. This behavior has manifested itself on Wikipedia as POV-pushing and disruption, some of which is plainly in this thread itself. Continued, stubborn insistence of innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is perplexing. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Given the seriousness of BLP articles here on Wikipedia is there a way of matching up the IP address used on the other sites with the one used here? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban or site ban for Tutelary. Here are all of the diffs that have been presented in this wall-of-text in which Tutelary has added BLP-violating material to Wikipedia articles: there aren't any. But I would support a BLP topic ban for Titanium Dragon, who has made enough such edits to justify the sanction. And, I would support an editing restriction on Tutelary, forbidding reverts (except self-reverts) in talk page space, because everything where Tutelary has edited badly really consists of that. And I think we should also caution some of the supporters in this discussion about WP:ASPERSIONS. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban. Edits like this BLP violation are just symptoms of a much wider pattern of inserting, or advocating for inserting, poorly supported disparaging material into the biographies of living women. Though individual edits and comments generally avoid violating the letter of BLP, discussions like these[18][19][20] show a clear tendency toward inserting negative material about living people based on questionable or unusable sources. Even if we assume good faith about Tutelary's intentions (which is a big assumption at this point), they clearly lack the competence expected of editors dealing with highly sensitive BLP topics, and they take up a considerable amount of other editors' time and energy. It simply shouldn't be so difficult for Wikipedia to channel problematic editors away from topics where they can cause serious damage, whether it's towards topics where they can be productive (through a topic ban), or toward another hobby altogether. On another note, it's also time to look into sanctions for Titanium Dragon and editors who have been disrupting these articles recently.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying that I shouldn't have the obligation nor the will to report another administrator's decisions up for review? Are you saying that in the terms of that I think wider input should be sought, I should not do a RfC? And to the fact that I 'lack competence', I do not, and that is plainly a personal attack. CIR is cited often when a user does not learn after an incessant amount of guidance, help, among other things, that is not the case here. The two that you cite are months and months old and appear to be only be useful in this discussion because there is shant a shred of recent evidence that I've been disruptive other than that misinterpreted diff. It's plainly obvious of that when you have to cite a RfC that was done when the dispute was still fresh, and a review of an administrator's authority and BLP policy. The diff of me restoring the talk page comment was actually a misinterpreted; I had the impression that NeinL had a problem with specific portions of the comment and that it was salvageable overall. I reverted only once. Indeed, in the next diff, you can see that I removed what I thought NeiNL thought was objectionable and then NeinL reverted again with further clarification and I did not revert again because it was evident that it was not salvageable. Tutelary (talk) 21:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Making a few problem edits and comments and then improving is one thing. Making the same problem edits again and again, over the course of months, and across multiple articles and forums, as you've been doing, is a serious problem. This is incompetence at best, if not outright intentional tendentious editing. In neither case should you come anywhere near a biography of a living person again.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@Cuchullain: - Please note that we actually can go back two revs and see what the content in question was (why it wasn't revdeled, I can't say, but only that particular edit was); the content did not originate with Tutelary, and the content in question was an post about being censored and about how the main gaming journalism websites were biased in their own favor from a third party. The post was probably not the best thing in the universe, but the problem was that some folks had been reverting every attempt to discuss some of the issues involved, which have been, at this point, reliably sourced. Banning them over revving back to something someone else posted, especially given that their reason was "delete the BLP violating information and leave the rest", isn't something I would consider a bannable offense at all. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Restoring some's flagrant BLP violation by edit warring is equally as bad as making the violation yourself. Especially when it's part of a larger pattern of BLP issues such as I linked to. What you "consider" carries no weight given your own various BLP violations. Neither of you should be editing BLPs.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose site or topic ban for Tutelary; though i have the highest respect for Black Kite and others who have commented or opined here, it simply isn't reasonable, in my view, to say, "Oh, there's evidence, but i'm not showing it to you, just take my word for it". Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't, but if i cannot see it (and, no thank you, i don't care to go searching off-site for it), it isn't convincing to me. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 22:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Er - it's been posted, deleted, and oversighted. What do you suggest, Lindsay? How shall we show it to you? --GRuban (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  • (edit conflict) Lindsay, we can't show you the evidence because every time someone presents any it gets oversighted away (Tutelary's adherence to policy improves remarkably when it suits Tutelary). The evidence that Tutelary has behaved inappropriately on BLPs is all above and in Tutelary's contributions. The evidence that Tutelary is an agenda-driven POV warier rather than a misguided newbie relies on analysis of their comments elsewhere on the web, and the evidence that they are not who they say they are was posted by third parties to Wikipediocracy. It's not difficult to find, but people who don't care to explain themselves to us mere mortals won't allow it to be posted on the wiki. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

HJ Mitchell, are you really doubting the oversight team here? Oversight is important to the wiki as personal information should just be left to be discovered via page history or even be left on the page itself. Oh, and I've heard of administrators who today only use their administrative actions to read revdeletions, make a post a month to keep their mop, and Oversight even protects against those snooping eyes as well. If you have a complaint, you can address it to Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Audit_Subcommittee. But do read WP:OVERSIGHT, in which one of its purposes is to protect privacy. Tutelary (talk) 23:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very familiar with both those processes. You forget, I was elected as an administrator to protect this project form people like you long before you created your account. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• • • I've done a bunch of revision deleting on those pages, and I don't have oversight powers, so those revisions are still accessible by mere mortal administrators like ourselves. Gamaliel (talk) 02:16, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. So, the police have found that a person's behavior may be problematic, but the police is not the prosecutor and the prosecutor is not the judge. Based on the evidence so far, first make a strong case that Wikipedia has been edited in an inpropriate way, if this is found to be the case let's discuss with the editor to make sure this won't continue. If this fails, one can start to think about sanctions to protect Wikipedia from problematic editing by the editor. Count Iblis (talk) 22:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose a community site ban based only on evidence provided on Wikipediocracy. Wikipediocracy should not be considered a reliable source. If there is non-public information available that User:Tutelary has in fact engaged in gender misrepresentation, then ArbCom is the appropriate authority to impose the ban. To repeat, I oppose any action based solely on information posted by an unreliable web site whose purpose is to attack the Wikipedia community. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Robert McClenon, the information is quite public. It consists in public posts, made by what is evidently the same individual, on hackforums.net and Reddit. There is no need to involve Wikipediocracy at all. Andreas JN466 23:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - I agree that gender misrepresentation does deserve a ban. I just don't see that the evidence of gender misrepresentation is satisfactory. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - It appears that the main BLP issue has to do with Zoe Quinn. So many of the edits to Zoe Quinn have been either redacted or suppressed (a non-admin cannot tell the difference) that it is difficult to determine who the offenders were. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Robert, as one non-admin to another, you can see somewhere above where I went through all the edits at Zoe Quinn, and (at the page, not the talk page), none of the revdeled edits were by Tutelary, but quite a few were by Titanium Dragon. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support siteban per SlimVirgin. Lightbreather (talk) 22:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose for a number of reasons, but mostly per Tryptofish's analysis of the situation. First, temporarily ignore all of the accusations of Tutelary being a man and pretending to be a woman, and look at their contributions to Wikipedia. If another editor had the same set of contributions to Wikipedia, without any of the gender impersonation issues, would you be supporting a BLP ban or a site ban for them, based on those contributions alone? Probably not. I haven't seen diffs of anything so extreme that a ban is required. Second, the gender impersonation issues aren't provable, nor are they a valid reason to ban anyone, even if they were proven to be true. There is no Wikipedia policy that forbids an editor from misrepresenting their gender, therefore there is no policy-based rationale to block someone for it. It's certainly not something that I would do myself, nor would I encourage others to do it, but that doesn't mean that I need to force my beliefs/principles/values on other people. If you get off on telling people that you're an 89-year-old blind albino Icelandic princess when in reality you're a 23-year-old dude living in your parents' basement, then go for it. This is the internet; there is never a reason to trust someone's claims about themselves. Finally, I oppose a ban based on off-wiki evidence that can't be posted on-wiki because the evidence itself violates Wikipedia policies. Such a ban would be a reward to those individuals who spend their time scouring the internet to expose the personal information and identity of Wikipedia editors with whom they disagree, and it would only encourage them to continue doxing other editors (maybe it'll be you next time). Doxing someone can be potentially traumatic and can potentially affect the target’s life, their family, and damage their livelihood. It should not be tolerated on- or off-wiki, and it cannot be rewarded. Exposing someone’s private information is an extremely disproportionate reaction to the transgressions that Tutelary is accused of. I believe that Tutelary has gone through enough, and I believe that this event is likely more than enough to cause Tutelary to behave in an appropriate manner, should they choose to continue editing here. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 23:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  "There is no Wikipedia policy that forbids an editor from misrepresenting their gender [...] If you get off on telling people that you're an 89-year-old blind albino Icelandic princess when in reality you're a 23-year-old dude living in your parents' basement, then go for it. This is the internet; there is never a reason to trust someone's claims about themselves." Wikipedia "is an entertainment, an annoyance, a distraction, a put-on, a reading experience, a performance, a series of ironies, an inversion that you do or do not get. At times you might read excerpts from these texts in the news and you might take them—at your own peril—at surface value. Which any college English freshman would warn you not to do. And which any graduate student in literature would laugh at you for doing. Ever onward, mate. Andreas JN466 00:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

  I had never seen that before, but it is quite apt and I enjoyed it immensely. "Wikipedia is not reality and nothing happening on Wikipedia—or 'behind the scenes at Wikipedia'—is real. So get the fuck over it." Thanks ‑Scottywong| verbalize _ 14:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm glad it amuses you, Scotty--but what Qworty is saying, of course, is that we should wipe our asses with the BLP policy. "Not real": we're talking about someone who for years abused Wikipedia to settle old scores. Ask those people how not real it was. I would hope that an administrator here would take these matters a bit more seriously, since BLP violations, unlike what that "writer" had to tell us on his soapboxy userpage, are not victimless crimes. Andreas, your point is well taken. Drmies (talk) 15:15, 13 September 2014‎ (UTC)

• Support siteban pr Jayen466 and SlimVirgin, Huldra (talk) 23:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - have not seen demonstration of any strong problems with editing by Tutelary. Claiming real life credentials for something that the users are not including gender, occupation, degrees, race, ethnicity, age, residence, etc. is wrong but it is hardly a bannable offence (maybe deserves a warning). Wiki rules are specifically designed to avoid reliance on editor's claims and the case may be a good reminder for this. Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• I don't know if I'm ready to vote for a ban on anything--but I find Tutelary's editing incredibly problematic. Right now I really doubt their competence, and this after teasing out a couple of diffs on Cunt and some chatter on the talkpage, including quite insulting remarks and an attempt to evade--Gobonobo knows what I'm talking about. Drmies (talk) 04:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't see a competence issue there. That thread is a perfect example of what Tutelary and Tutelary's mates have been doing with considerable success at the gender gap task force: transparently specious "argument" and unfounded opposition to frustrate and demoralise genuine editors. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 03:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose especially per Count Iblis's comment below, and those by Alex Bakharev, Tryptofish, Robert McClenon, and Scotty Wong above. Some folks here clearly wish to silence (via bans/blocks) or WP:Censor editors with whom they strongly disagree (the underlying motivation here). Some are willing to blatantly ignore WP policies to achieve that end. That intolerance of intellectual diversity, and efforts to curb free and open discussion, reveals WP:NOTHERE. This is not what WP is about. WP has never been about who someone is, it is about what they have contributed to the project. Memills (talk) 03:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean your kind of "intellectual diversity" and the editing that got you topic banned indefinitely from all men's rights related pages and discussions? Haven't you been arguing that those your consider "gender feminists" and supposedly "feminist" sources should be excluded as RS? Tutelary defended your contributions in that topic area like your problematic BLP edits in Michael Kimmel's BLP where you kept adding negative commentary to the page based on an opinion piece in an unreliable men's rights journal. Don't get me started on the role Tutelary played in enabling disruptive, POV driven editors in the men's rights topic area. By the way, please let me know when that ArbCom case you and Tutelary discussed is on the way. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 11:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

As usual, it is stunning to watch you misrepresent facts, eschew accuracy, and lob ad hominems in an agenda to silence editors that challenge your POV. Exemplifies the very point. And, it is not lost on the editors here who ask: "Where are the diffs? They're aren't any." Memills (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I fail to see any evidence of disruption here on WP, where are the DIFFS supporting a similar request? Unconvinced there is a problem, sorry. And banning on the basis of a wikipediocracy article investigating the off-wiki identity of an editor would be a terrible precedent. Cavarrone 13:58, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Are you crazy? No. Strongest possible oppose. I don't see a single diff of any disruption. We're going to start banning people for someone at wikipediocracy posting something about her? Cheers, Thanks, L235-Talk Ping when replying 14:50, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The difs in question are oversighted on Quinns page --109.148.126.200 (talk) 15:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Incredibly strong oppose to this discussion as if let's say that she DID pretend to be female, that shouldn't be even able to be used to gain any sort of advantage in a content dispute or any dispute. If I said "As a woman I think my opinions are more important", I don't get how that even boosts my hypothetical actual position on anything. You can't BAN people based on Wikipediocracy postings! IT'S A BLOG! If a blog isn't a reliable source for articles, how is it a reliable source for a site ban? You can't ban people based on off-wiki issues! The points in question is "fraudulently claiming to be a woman" (claimed by an UNRELIABLE source), "off-wiki activities", and "BLP disputes". Correct me if I'm wrong, but "fraudulently claiming to be a woman" can't be in any way, shape, or form, a BANNABLE offence at this time! Who determines that he's a woman? A blog on the internet? Or Tutelary herself? Plus, the arguments advanced in favour of using this as a bannable offence state that she used her position as a woman to get advantages in discussions. How is that possible? The fact that you are a woman shouldn't have any bearing on any discussion, so the point is moot, unless somebody else took that into account in closing discussions, in which it is that person's fault. Off-wiki activities can't have a bearing on your contributions, as you should only be judged in a discussion by whether your position is backed up with reliable sources. She could be a militant feminist advancing the killing of all men off-wiki and I'd be fine with her complying with all policies and being consensus forming in discussions. The so-called "BLP disputes" are disputed themselves, by other editors on this page. The only way there could possible be grounds for a ban is in the area of BLP disputes. That should be the discussion we're having, and according to the strongest arguments, Tutelary is in the right. Other people just call her a misogynist and expect that to win on the sheer number of !support votes. Too bad that Wikipedia isn't a vote. Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 17:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess if Tutelary got banned for his involvement with misogynistic Reddit discussions, you might be the next one looking at a ban. Oh, no, I guess not because you deleted your account last week, didn't you? Did you think no one would notice? Kaletony (talk) 00:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose both site and BLP ban at this time, mostly per Tryptofish. We should not be using what may or may not have happened on other sites as fodder for bans here. I.e., If an editor is a good candidate for a ban, then the appropriate evidence must come from Wikipedia diffs. I also suggest that this thread be closed before it wastes anymore of the community's resources. (This has been going back and forth for more than five days now, and no clear consensus will emerge from this thread) Rationalobserver (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• My problem is with what Tutelary has been doing on this site. But I agree, there isn't a concise, coherent and persuasive argument supporting that position in this page - It's there if you follow the right links, I suppose. But I've got promises to keep and don't have time for whak-a-mole right now. So, unless something comes out of left field in the next day or so, I'll support closing this as unresolved. (And maybe setting up a broad RfC on anti-women behaviour here. But later.)

Welcome to Wikipedia, by the way. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Take it to Arbcom As it appears there is "private information" (in the Wikipedia sense) and there appears to be more than one off-site kefluffle going [21] that maybe further being pursued on wikipedia, Arbcom is the place to sort this out. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Protonk. On the Internet, nobody knows that you're a dog, or a male. Any statement concerning themselves by anonymous editors should be taken with a grain of salt. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:37, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban - Tutelary's obvious dissembling should make it clear to anyone with a clue that he has been playing you all along. If I were him, I would be more concerned by the very real prospect of the police knocking on his door than with continuing this charade on Wikipedia. Kaletony (talk) 00:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• lol: there's an old interwebs adage: "don't feed the trolls". If you don't know who's feeding the trolls in this situation, it's probably you ;-). --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 01:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban , else BLP topic ban. (revised - nah, site ban it should be) More than justified. Volunteer Marek  07:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. As @Mr. Stradivarius: and @Tryptofish: noted above, none of the article space revdels were by Tutelary. Of my own, as Strad noted, they weren't made in bad faith, were indeed sourced (though some folks weren't happy with some of the sources - we had a discussion about them on the talk page, as was recommended by one of the ANIs about the article), and were written "mostly" neutrally (I did my best, but no one is perfect :P I thought it was alright. I have a copy of it still, if anyone is interested, though I'm not sure how to link to stuff like that easily). It wasn't, as noted, a hit piece on Zoe Quinn, but an overview of what was going on; the central issue is more or less that Zoe's ex outed her as being involved with several people involved in the gaming industry, and all of them got accused of being corrupt and promoting each other and attacking each others' enemies by very angry gamers. At this point, we have far better sources thanks to much better coverage.

I can't speak for all the revdels on the talk page, but a previous ANI noted that they probably were a little bit overboard and probably didn't all need to happen. It is water under the bridge at this point, though, and the concerns were over BLP issues which I think have since been satisfied via discussion on the talk page once some folks (NOT the admins) stopped deleting all attempts at discussion. And I'm sure at least some of the revdels were people being angry on the talk page; given Tutelary's general behavior, though, if they restored any of those (and given the ones that I have seen restored, weren't exceptionally bad, and frankly I see worse every day elsewhere on the encyclopedia) I'm not really worried about it. There were concerns about censorship of the talk page by several folks, and eventually that quieted down after the ANI agreed that discussing these things wasn't a BLP vio because of all the sourcing.

As for the rest of it - Tutelary hasn't seemed overly hostile, and has been quite civil compared to many of the other people who have been involved in editing that article. I don't care what gender they are and have actually been sent stuff which pretty much confirms their identification via Twitter (and then had to explain to said person why, exactly, posting that information was a bad idea, because some folks don't understand the concept of "the problem was the violation of privacy, and that is going to further violate their privacy"). I think they've been trying to improve Wikipedia. I haven't seen evidence of any poor behavior ON Wikipedia. If someone has evidence of actual poor behavior, I'm more than happy to look at it, but I'm not seeing anything all that exciting. Certainly nothing warranting a ban. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban. Tutelary has demonstrated that he/she is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to enact an anti-feminist agenda that includes trolling the editors at the gender gap task force and making tendentious edits to BLPs and women-related topics. Tutelary's actions fit the mold of a broader campaign of disruptive editing waged by MRAs that reddit, A Voice for Men, 4chan, and the like send our way. Women editors and efforts to address the gender gap are just targets for 'lulz'. This noticeboard's ongoing inability to do anything about it or take action against the editors who engage in this behavior is discouraging. gobonobo ^{+ c} 14:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban - +1,000 btc to Gobonobo for being blunt. The fact that too many admins and editors here are naive enough to fall for the 'lulz' and disruption is beyond discouraging. Tutelary should have been indeffed as soon as the information became known. Any editor that has any clue at all can see what's going on here. It's a pity that we continue to allow this silliness to escalate, like fools. Just the disruption and BLP violations can be pointed to for the admins and editors who don't know what 4chan is. Sigh...... Dave Dial (talk) 15:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Question to editors who support a site ban or topic ban: I think that you can see that opinions in this discussion are divided, and it is becoming unlikely that such bans will get consensus (unless new evidence comes out of the sockpuppet investigation). I earlier proposed an editing restriction in which Tutelary would be restricted against making reverts (other than self-reverts) in talk space. If you look closely, all of Tutelary's edits that have come under the greatest concern are reverts of that sort. If the bans cannot be agreed to, would you find the editing restriction helpful, or would you consider it inadequate? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I think admins would regret not making the decision for at least a topic ban, it's not like Quinn's harassers have been receiving good press and Wikipedia already has a pretty bad reputation for being misogynistic. It was Tutelary who added the information about the incident to the article against consensus to wait, with plenty of "allegedly"'s for the harassment she received but none for her supposed "sex for coverage". I don't think some people here realise how serious it is to add information about this to a WP:BLP --5.81.51.98 (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Admins block, but the community bans. Plenty of us understand how serious BLP is, but we don't ban people because of outside press concerns. I've been asking and asking for diffs of Tutelary adding BLP-violating material to the page (not the talk page), and I'm still waiting. But there clearly are problematic reverts on talk pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

BLP covers certain talk page edits. It's not "anything goes" just because it's not in article space.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:15, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I never said "anything goes" – and that's why I'm proposing an editing restriction. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose. It has been ridiculous to see the Wikipedia gang up on a doxxing victim like this. If you're worried about a misogynistic reputation, then I suggest not going on witchhunts against underage female editors. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 20:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• • Pshhh. What does it matter? If this goes by without admin action, it just shows how clueless admins are. So why would anyone who does have a clue care about more bureaucratic bullshit? Dave Dial (talk) 20:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: no diffs have been provided that clearly show our blocking policy's definition of disruption. As far as misrepresenting one's identity goes, if that were blockable then a huge portion of our users should be banned. By stating that misrepresenting one's identity is a bannable offense, you will be rewarding people for doxxing wiki editors they don't like in order to get them banned. I am sure there are large numbers of editors who misaffiliate their sex, race, qualifications, probably even people in this thread, and I don't want to see witchhunts becoming standard procedures. As always wikipedia should focus on the edit's, and the arguments of editors, and not on their stated qualifications. This isn't Citizendium.AioftheStorm (talk) 20:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment So, all of the egregious diffs that were provided have been revdel-ed, and now some people are basing oppose !votes on the idea that no refs were provided? People seem to be opposing based on basic ignorance of the situation in more recent comments. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:15, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

We can still see that diffs have been revedeled (not the same as suppressed/oversighted), and none of them in mainspace have been by Tutelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Is there a "non-mainspace" exemption for problematic BLP edits? If they're using the site to spread damaging claims about BLP subjects, it doesn't matter where they do it, talk page, noticeboard, wikiproject, whatever.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

In such cases people can sometimes cross the line due to heated discussions, the proper way to put a stop to that is by first issueing a warning that BLP must be respected also outside the editing of articles. In principle, we are here to help editors stick to the rules we have here and if that doesn't work within the margins of errors we can tolerate, we need to impose restrictions. If people say that they can already tell that this editor is up to no good, then we don't need to preemptively act on that assessment, the outcome of the normal process to deal with editors who misbehave and continue to do so despite warmings will yield the same outcome anyway. So, no need to build a Guantanamo Bay detention facility, the regular justice system is good enough. Count Iblis (talk) 22:01, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This looks like it's post-warnings, post-admin-block. __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:35, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

"all of the egregious diffs that were provided have been revdel-ed,"

I have no idea if a diff is egregious without seeing it. I don't trust the judgement of a site where saying things like "So-and-so has been subjected to misogynist harassment" qualifies as "an egregious BLP violation"...AioftheStorm (talk) 02:18, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Weak Support site-ban. Tutelary and I have been debating about Skyler Page, where ironically he has been removing information about Page's sexual assault accusations. It seems a little strange that he took the the total opposite side on this debate then he did with Zoe Quinn. What bothers me is not that he disagreed with me, but the way he went about it. I reverted the page twice in 24 hours and said that it was the last time I will revert it. He reverts it 3 times and then has the nerve to warn me for edit warring. I am not saying that I wasn't edit warring, but he was just as guilty of edit warring as me, if not more guilty. I only reverted it twice and said I was stopping there while he reverted it three times. Also he bought up discussions he claimed showed that there was consensus to not include the accusations on Skyler Page; however both discussions were about not including it on Clarence (2014 TV series) and one of them only involved him and one other user. Overall, this seems to be a case of WP:NOTHERE. JDDJS (talk) 23:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

JDDJS, while I don't think the material in question should be added to Skylar Page, it is indeed distressing to see Tutelary fighting so hard to keep it out, considering his devotion to adding much more poorly supported negative material into articles of women.[22][23][24]--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. As someone who was active at the Zoe Quinn article during the time that most of the revision-deletion happened, I didn't find Tutelary to be disruptive. I may not have agreed with their opinion, but for the most part they were good about not violating the BLP policy. The only two lapses[25][26] (admin-only links) were restorations of comments by others on the talk page. I would say that these restorations were problematic, but not problematic enough that they couldn't be addressed by discussion.

  As for other evidence, the revert at Jimbo's talk page was maybe not in very good taste, but it wasn't a BLP violation, and I don't think it violated the talk page guidelines either. Above, Cuchullain claims that Tutelary shows a pattern of inserting, or advocating for inserting, poorly supported disparaging material into the biographies of living women. I think that the links that Cuchullain uses to back that statement up ([27][28][29]) show that Tutelary has, in the past, advocated for inserting such material. However, I don't see any actual insertion of problematic material in article space, and in my recent interactions with Tutelary on the Zoe Quinn page they have been a better judge of what constitutes a source acceptable for a BLP than is evident in those earlier discussions.

  Based on the evidence I have linked to in this post, I think that site-banning or topic-banning Tutelary would be an overreaction. I have more sympathy for Tryptofish's proposed talk-page restriction, but I personally doubt that it is necessary. Just the fact that this discussion has occurred will likely make Tutelary be more careful about talk page reverts in the future.

  Now, of course, there is off-wiki evidence involved in this incident as well, but we aren't well-equipped to deal with that kind of evidence here on ANI. The outing policy prevents us from linking much of the evidence directly or from discussing it in detail, so it can never be all that clear what the evidence is that we are talking about. And when we can't be sure that we are all on the same page about what is supposed to have happened, it's hard to say that we can find a meaningful consensus about it. If off-wiki evidence is going to be taken account, it would be much better to bring this to ArbCom, as they have procedures for dealing with material that could violate people's privacy. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 03:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted

That the people voting for 'support' have -not- substantiated their claims of my apparently disruptive behavior nor other allegations. Yet they keep mentioning it as if something -did- happen. Yes, I got doxxed, and I got a less than pleasant response, some of the people commenting here on this very noticeboard even implicating that I deserved it. The apparent 'disruptive' behavior (along with gross doxxing) was pointed out at Wikipediocracy...with exactly no diffs at all. The only thing that came close was the link to my user activity, which cites that my highly edited pages are evidence of 'dispruptive' editing. Again, there are no diffs or other on site evidence that points to such. Additionally, the people commenting here have not substantiated their claims either, indeed, Black Kite even stated Given the extremely convincing evidence posted elsewhere which implies that he/she knows there's no onsite proof that I've been disruptive. Tutelary (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't be disingenuous. You'd be whining even harder if somebody posted the evidence on the wiki, and then we'd have to oversight it all and waste even more of everyone's time. If I was in your position right now, I'd go and write a beautiful, properly sourced, neutral article that had absolutely nothing to do with Zoe Quinn/GamerGate to prove that I could be trusted to edit in keeping with the values of this project. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

But that's not what's happening here. You !voted to support the topic BLP ban without a single shred of a diff or evidence on wiki that I've been disruptive. Are you basing your !vote on Wikipediocracy's post where they freakin' doxxed me? And I really wish I could, my heart has been on pace for a couple days now and my blood pressure has spiked, I've been crying and getting emotional as of late and it's plainly obvious that it's Wikipedia that's causing it; even exacerbated by you attributing my concerns to just 'whining', and probably a violation of WP:CIVIL. Tutelary (talk) 21:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be a lesson learned; do not wage campaigns against BLP subjects via a pseudonymous Wikipedia account, or else external forces may act to strip that pseudonymity away. Tarc (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You've been exposed, elsewhere, for the liar and misogynist that you are. You just don't belong here. Sorry if that doesn't fit neatly enough into the wikirules for you. As for: "Uh, it is all explained offwiki. What happens offwiki stays offwiki." No. Not in Qworty's case. Not in yours. Why don't you just try to preserve a shred of dignity and go away. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:24, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Please be civil. WP:UNCIVIL 72.89.93.110 (talk) 02:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It would be hilarious were it not so embarrassing that we're entertaining a ban proposal on the basis of evidence which, if placed on wiki, would be oversighted away. Can someone just remove the fig leaf and post the article here? Otherwise I'm forced to ask (as a good citizen) what evidence do we have that Tutelary has misrepresented their identity? Obvious you know what the evidence is and I know what the evidence is, but how on earth am I to take a ban proposal seriously where posting the incipient piece of evidence would lead me to have my contributions oversighted or my account blocked? Protonk (talk) 13:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, that is a shortcoming in the Wikipedia bureaucracy...similar to how identifying conflict-of-interest editors can rub against outing concerns...but one that shouldn't prevent the project from doing the right thing if need be. "I can't link it here, therefore I cannot consider it" is hardly a compelling defense. Tarc (talk) 13:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It just makes the whole thing asinine. To be clear, I think someone should cowboy up and actually link the piece so we're not just salaciously suggesting that editors google correctly to find a blog that most of the participants in the discussion have already read. And I think the nature of the topic can lead us to forget just how fucking malicious the article actually is. Read the Excrement will happen section and tell me that's anything besides shitting on someone for not leading an appropriate public life. Questions about Tutelary aside (and I think there's an unfortunate parallel to the specious claims from assholes about how "Gamergate is just about journalistic integrity" to our claim that we're all just so worried that Tutelary passed as a woman), there's no defence for that shit. None. And we shouldn't be supporting it here. That's not some bureaucratic inconvenience, it's an expectation that you should be able to write articles on wikipedia anonymously or pseudonymously without some shitheel telling everyone your name, location and how much you like MLP fan fiction. As I mentioned above, I was outed because like TD I wasn't careful with the use of "protonk" between disparate forums and because WR didn't like my opinions about the BLP policy. We can reassure ourselves that there's a stronger "journalistic" imperative at work than merely pissing off some person with time on their hands and an axe to grind about wikipedia, but we're not making a strong case for that by laundering those claims in service of a site ban. Protonk (talk) 14:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

First, anyone that knows how to search on the interwebs can find the pages in question. One would think in order to be a prolific Wikipedia editor, searching the internet is 2nd nature. Second, we should have a policy based on cases like this, and the many that have came before it. Trolling or pretending to be someone you're not is not new on the webs. BBS boards and Usenet were/are full of that sort crap. Editors should ask themselves if they want that type of behavior to become prolific on this project, without any consequences, because of some circular reasoning about rules. Lastly, of course the editor should be topic banned at the very least, and probably site banned. I would like to see better rules on this project in dealing with this type of situation, no matter who the editor is. But until we do, I guess ad hoc reasoning and common sense should overrule circular reasoning and being forced to look the other way because of ....tongue in cheek pointing to rules. We aren't stupid, are we? Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the thing is, I think the notion of "writing articles on wikipedia anonymously or pseudonymously" is getting to be a bit of an outmoded ideal. For a lot of years that has shield a lot of nefarious deeds in this project. Let's put it this way; if a journalist at a reliable source pens a piece on GamerGate or Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesian, that piece has a byline. An actual person has attached an actual identity to their words, and if there is something factually wrong or controversial or anything, Quinn et al can at least point to that journalist and say "hey, that's not right" and offer a rebuttal to a living, identifiable person. What recourse does Zoe Quinn have when someone known only as "Tutelary" accuses her of infidelity and ethics violations? Or "Titanium Dragon", whose contributions to the Quinn article were so egregious that dozens of his edits had to be oversighted. IMO, people like these two speak as they do about others because they do so under a fake name, just a handle on an internet forum. Strip that away, and have them post something that can be traced back to them personally, by name, just like any media journalist, and you may find that they will choose their words with a bit more care. I'm sorry that you yourself got doxxed by the old WR, but that crew, while there is some overlap with WO, was a very different and very nasty beast that attacked people they simply didn't like. WO is more of a vigilante, an Oliver Queen of the Wiki-sphere. The "Excrement" sub-section was a bit of a low-blow, but y'know, when adults are obsessed with tv shows written for 10yr-old girls, I really don't have a lot of sympathy. Being a teased Brony isn't a civil rights issue. Tarc (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

About using information from other sites: there have been precedents with the Arbcom I believe, with the Phil Sandifer situation, and with the Ironholds and Keifer Wolfowitz case, that off-wiki evidence could be considered in Arbcom cases, but anything with identifying information had to be presented by email. I also seem to remember some kind of policy, which I can't seem to find at the moment, that prohibits posting something that can damage someone's computer. If someone is claiming off-wiki that they are posing as a woman in order to convince users to download something that will introduce a trojan virus into their computer in order to get access to any porn images they may have stored in their cellphones, at the very least, someone should examine that individual's contributions to see if they are safe to leave up. —Neotarf (talk) 17:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

While several people supporting the ban have posted diffs I do think they should have been presented when the ban was proposed. One of the key features of evidence is that it should be evident. Chillum Need help? Type {{ping|Chillum}} 03:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There are a few diffs [redact, has dox links] --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

One of the key features of a ban proposal is that people who are likely to be interested should be notified. Has the gender gap project been notified? I believe Tutelary and Titanium Dragon have both paid them a visit. What about the other talk pages where they have been editing? ——Neotarf (talk) 05:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Notified Gender Gap project. --GRuban (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm noticing my two edits are being rev-deleted yet my comment on here remains? Can anybody explain why revisions are being deleted (mine in particular), or is it an effort to get rid of dox links like Anthony had stated above? Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not sure why this is being called "doxxing". Tutelary's real name has not been mentioned aither here or elsewhere, merely posting made by him at Reddit and hackforums. This, as far as I am aware, is not either doxxing or outing. Black Kite (talk) 19:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm just curious as to what's up with all the rev-deletions. Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 19:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

So am I, and I've asked the admin concerned for an explanation. What was rev-del'd was simply links to comments made on external sites. No personal information was mentioned. Black Kite (talk) 19:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Doxxing: "publishing personally identifiable information about an individual". You don't consider posting (atleast a supposed) picture of a Wikipedia editor personally identifiable information (and studying place)? --Pudeo' 20:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

"... although our standards of publishing prevent us from releasing certain personally identifying information about potentially underage persons." By your own definition, what Wikipediocracy did with Tutelary is not "doxxing". --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't pretend to be silly, a picture clearly showing one's face is personally identifiable, especially given that the university name was released. ("Does anyone know this student?"...) As stated on Mike_V's talk page, the oversight was reviewed and approved by two different oversighters. If you disagree, you should email AudCom. --Pudeo' 19:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be hallucinating. There is not and never has been any mention of a university or the name of any other institute of learning on that page, and the page does not and never did contain such an image as you describe (see the editor's note). Andreas JN466 19:55, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You are right about the school, it was just on state level. However, it did contain a personally identifiable picture. The editor's note in fact states they removed the picture. --Pudeo' 20:14, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's just be accurate about this. The post did not contain a picture. The editor's note says, "An earlier version of this post contained a link to publicly viewable photographs (mirror selfies) of Ging287, which he uploaded to an image sharing site five years ago when a teenager. The link was removed upon request by a Twitter user." Andreas JN466 20:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Earlier versions did contain photos, they have removed it. I have an archive link from when they did. I also am sickened by the fact that they still consider me a male, when I've made it quite freakin' clear that I am not. It's insulting and harassment. Also, it wouldn't be able to be linked anywho for it contains dox information of another Wiki editor. Tutelary (talk) 20:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Come on, we all saw the post. There was a link to a photo page, but not the photos themselves. Andreas JN466 21:13, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Could you please double- or triple-check that, Andreas? I read the article fairly soon after it was posted and saw no photo of Ging, but perhaps it was taken down early. Tutelary, could you please email me the archive link? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

100% positive on that. Andreas JN466 22:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary just emailed me the archived version of the Wikipediocracy blog post and it did not contain the photo/s in question. It contained a link to another site that hosted photos. That link has since been removed. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Anthonyhcole. For your own safety, I would suggest you check your computer for trojans, as there is a user Tutelary on hackforums.net who uses the same name and surname that Tutelary has used on Wikimedia sites, and who explains at some length there how he installs Remote Access Trojans on users' computers by getting them to click on links, open e-mail attachments and so forth. Better safe than sorry. Andreas JN466 00:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You're kidding. Link? (I will run a malware scan. Thanks.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:31, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

He is definitely not kidding, and you better use an updated version of Malware Bytes. At the very least. PS: I moved your post so as to keep the thread continuous. Dave Dial (talk) 00:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh Lord. I just saw the IP post #above. Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:41, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Dave Dial or Andreas, I've just re-read the links in the IP's post #above and can't see any corroboration for the claim that "Tutelary acknowledges hacking a persons computer and stealing information." I admit I'm very technically ignorant and may well be missing something, but could one of you please explain what those linked pages say about breach of privacy? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Try this link, they explain in detail how they do it [30] --5.81.51.98 (talk) 02:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks 5.81. I think I'm getting it now. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:30, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• For the record, I just indef'd Doxelary (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Whether it's Tutleary or someone pretending to be, I offer no opinion. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Would a possible sock check be worth looking into? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd say yes. If a checkuser were to determine that it was really Tutelary making that post on Jimbo's talk page, that would change me to supporting a site ban. But it could also easily be a so-called Joe job. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC) And it would be worse because Tutelary welcomed Doxelary on talk. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The welcoming is less a matter of me welcoming a sock (I only have one Wikipedia account) but more a fact of some minor OCD going off. Two red links in a row just annoys me so I welcome them; I get rid of that annoying feeling and I welcome a new contributor to Wikipedia. Win win. Tutelary (talk) 23:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell:, why did you hardblock the user indefinitely per WP:NOTHERE? What did the user do wrong in any context of disruption? Additionally, you revoked talk page and email access, which is specifically prohibited per WP:HARDBLOCK unless there is evidence of disruption on those avenues; which there doesn't seem to be. Tutelary (talk) 23:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Let me be clear nobody is saying you have socked but given how it is connected it should be looked into. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

At this point though I see no harm in checking, you are right it could be a wrong tree but it is just another red flag going off. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Knowledgekid87 is right here. Someone spoofing a user name only to contribute an edit to discuss that user? You (tutelary) don't see how that could be disruptive? When it's your own user name? We don't need pseudo-twotelary's (or knowledgekid88's or knowledgekid89's) running around, I don't think.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I have my assumption of good faith and to the fact that 1. They could be asked to change their username. or 2. I'm not sure of a site wide policy that bans impersonation of very close usernames (in this case I think it was intentional as googling 'Doxelary" doesn't come up with anything, probably lack of good imagination and decided to use my name but change up a letter) and 3. Hardblocking email and talk page when there is no abuse in those avenues is specifically prohibited per WP:HARDBLOCK. I see HJ Mitchell not responding to my query yet editing other pages...admins are to be accountable. Tutelary (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

A sock check on Doxelary would be apt given the individual's expressed familiarity with Wikipedia and Wikipediocracy. I highly doubt it is Tutelary. GamerGate people are discussing this all over Twitter, 4chan, and Reddit. One of them, perhaps one who has a past here, could have easily popped in to comment.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Misleading usernames are disruptive and distracting, regardless of origin. If The Devil's Avocado suddenly appeared to participate only in this thread, my opinion would be the same.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:29, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I am tempted to start an SPI on this; I have seen stranger things before than a bad hand account. Even if the account isn't Tulary there is a chance that it is one of the usual suspects --Guerillero | My Talk 04:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

And I was more than just tempted. Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tutelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, this should clear up this loose end if there is any. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Taking note of some editors referring to "the usual suspects", it might perhaps be helpful for them to comment on that at the SPI, but in a specific manner, rather than leaving it for the rest of us to guess about. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

We should only consider the edits he made to articles here. If assume for argument's sake that all the other allegations are correct, then that's a perfectly acceptable tactic one may use to get a point accross. We can strongly disagree with the point being made, but it's a tactic that has been used many times, often with positive effects. Take e.g. the Sokal affair, or James Randi letting a few of his apprentices pretend to be psychics so that his criticism of the parapsychology field would finally be taken serious (and it indeed worked). If a group of people is right on an issue and Tutelary joins that group, misrepresenting himself and attempting to act as an agent provocateur, then nothing bad can happen. Being right makes the group immune to its positions being debunked. Instead of condemning such actions, we should embrace it. Count Iblis (talk) 03:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Note that I made the assumed that Tutelary is a male only for argument's sake without me personally taking a position in this dispute. Since Tutelary has made it clear that she is a female and she did that also personally to me when she objected to me using "himself" to refer to her above , I need to make clear that unless proven otherwise, Tutelary should be considered a female as that's how she identifies herself. She asked me to change "him" into "her" in the above posting, but I don't think I should do that because above I refer to a hypothetical Tutelary who really is male if one assumes that her critics are correct. Count Iblis (talk) 22:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It's the misogyny that's the problem. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I asked you before. Don't call other editors misogynist without good reason. Please be civil. WP:CIVL 72.89.93.110 (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you referring to the edit where you said: Nobody on Wikipedia is harassing people. Where do you draw the line between criticism and harassment? Because it's a problem if people are intimidated against calling out shitty/abusive behavior when they see it.? __ E L A Q U E A T E 20:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference between calling out on abusive behavior and throwing epithets like Joseph McCarthy. --Pudeo' 20:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you calling an editor Joe McCarthy? __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm pointing to the absurdity of Eric Corbett, a total non-misogynist (though frequent equal-opportunity uncivil dick head) being labelled a misogynist and dragged to "arbitration" for frankly speaking his mind at the gender-gap task force, while the seriously misogynist Tutelary and Tutelary's concern-troll mates all-but extinguish the task force by drowning it in their oh-so-civil "men's rights" word-salad. Classic. Just perfect. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It's better to stick to the on-Wiki problems. Things like editing disputes, tendentious editing, harassment etc. etc. What Tutelary does elsewhere is neither here nor there, it can only be used as supplementary evidence. If I harass Jews on Wikipedia but in some of these cases you could consider that to be borderline cases of harassment, then me posting on Neo-Nazi forums may be relevant evidence in an ArbCom case to bolster the case against me. But you can't turn this around, a Neo-Nazi can in principle be a good contributor to Wikipedia. Count Iblis (talk) 22:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Did you read what I wrote? Tutelary and friends with their anti-woman agenda and endless specious crap arguments swamped and trashed the gender gap task force. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Godwin? But let me use your analogy this once: In principle, yes. But not if they made unconstructive edits in civil rights activists' BLPs and stressed their supposed ethnicity ("fellow black person here") in community discussions about racism. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know who Eric Corbett is, but take it up with him, not un-related individuals. Peace. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 23:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

If disruption at the gender gap task force is the main problem then let's just focus on that problem. Count Iblis (talk) 01:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Just close

Anyone else feel that this all manufactured trolling from 4chan and reddit? All "sides" that have created this appear to benefit from publicity whether it's an obscure indie game developer, washed-up hollywood actor, or single cause advocates looking for attention. I see all the political hot-topic buzzwords being hashtagged with the "controversy" as if they are tied (hint: hacking Apple and privacy violations has no connection to gaming or misogyny or feminism unless your trying to troll those that feel strongly about those topics on 4chan or reddit). Wikipedicracy extended the trolling to WP. Given the reputation of 4chan and reddit and the level of discourse - I'm calling shenanigans and we are all being trolled to pay attention to something that is largely irrelevant to the vast majority of people. Don't feed the trolls. Stop, close and ignore. --DHeyward (talk) 05:35, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, dude? If you can't see the connection between misogyny and gaming, you obviously haven't been paying attention because there's been volumes written about it lately. You think that Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian wanted to have misogynist bile endlessly spat at them just so that they could get more publicity? Those "men's rights advocates" on Reddit aren't trolling - they actually seem to believe that vile crap. Editors who hang out in those forums are bringing it here. Wikipediocracy just exposed what has been getting worse for quite a while. This issue has become a festering sore and will only get worse if it isn't dealt with. Kaletony (talk) 15:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

No, "dude", I see a connection between 16-18 y/o boys that define their view of relationships/girls/sex somewhere between Hollywood fantasy and porn - and the industry that caters to it (Hollywood, porn, gaming). They also cater to their views on violence and crime. The boys act it out on reddit and 4chan, and yes, they are trolling (successfully) if you think "men's rights" is anywhere near reddit or 4chan. Nor is there any non-trolling feminist areas on those sites. I also wouldn't use pathological terms like "misogyny" to describe preformed views expressed by adolescents. These "issues" being flung across twitter are akin to the activists that opposed SpongeBob SquarePants on the basis the cartoon sponge was "gay" and the various "debates" that sprung up. --DHeyward (talk) 17:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

MeMills is topic banned from all men's rights related pages and discussions. They are neither an adolescent boy nor a troll. SPECIFICO was just handed an interaction ban with a prominent female editor. They are neither an adolescent nor a troll. Even if your opinion were correct, why would we ignore adolescent trolls? Some editors here are trying to maintain neutral articles about these subjects - why should they have to deal with trolls and zealots? And what difference does it make if someone is trolling by taking an extreme postion or if they honestly believe it? It isn't the ideas that are the problem here, it's the actions. And the actions speak for themselves. Troll or not, people like Tutelary need to be shown the door. Kaletony (talk) 21:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You are missing it. Topics whose notability is derived from reddit, 4chan or wikipediocracy are simply not notable. It's trolling. There is a difference between administering editor behavior here vs. giving voice to trolling from over there. The fact that you equate what happens on reddit, 4chan and wikipediocracy as notable discourse on feminism, misogyny or men's rights is rather disturbing. None of the items you mentioned is related to each other. For that reason trolls, who come here to fight for/against Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian because reddit or 4chan ridiculed them or harassed them is trolling - and unrelated to editor behavior here. Women are harassed all the time and that is a general issue but reddit isn't a particularly different place that deserves special attention. Your local courthouse has public records of every order of protection and it isn't news or noteworthy and they are worse than what goes on at reddit or 4chan or wikipediocracy. Those sites are the adolescent version of IRL harassment and threats. Being on reddit or 4chan or wikipediocracy doesn't add to their claims or notability but if we feed it, it will surely grow. That's all they are known for - adolescent trolling. Conversely, actresses that are already notable that had personal photos stolen is a real issue outside the echo chamber and they had notability prior to the act. If you knew how many photos were stolen from non-celebrities you would realize that the reddit angle is meaningless. In short, editors that bring trolling from those sites in the form of increasing eyeballs to those sites should be dealt with swiftly and the articles dealt with just as swiftly. Editors that behave badly in general are already taken care of. They are unrelated issues as the bringing reddit/4chan/wikipediocracy here is trolling. Your conflation of Specifico/CMDC interaction with anything other than Specifico/CMDC and specifically related to CMDC's gender is a gross mischaracterization and understanding of that interaction ban as well as being unrelated to this discussion. --DHeyward (talk) 02:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you think the things they talk about on Reddit, 4chan and Wikipediocracy have no overlap with Wikipedia then you must wear blinders. Both about those sites and about Wikipedia. Maybe you honestly do think that it's just kids playing around. It isn't. Kaletony (talk) 03:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

"The things" they talk about are too broad a characterization to say they don't overlap. Your connection of CMDC/Specifico to this discussion are an example of the problem of feeding trolls. It appears from your argument that because reddit speaks like adolescents about women and feminists and that it is therefore simply an extension of WP's discussion regarding women editors and feminists and all discussions regarding women can be framed in terms defined by reddit. That is not the case as reddit has no notable views on women's issues or notable views on wikipedia. CMDC/Specifico isn't even remotely related and you've offered no connection other than an observation that one editor is female. Reddit doxxing is the internet version of writing a girls address and phone number with "for a good time call Jenny 867-5309" on the high school bathroom. It's very disconcerting and serious to the girl and the school and provides plenty of juvenile gossip and drama as well as serious discussions of harassment at the school appropriate for adolescents but is not notable. Stealing personal photo's and publishing them is a crime. The current high-profile theft case in the news is notable for WP because the subjects are notable, not just because they are salacious or prurient. Salacious and prurient photos are stolen/published all the time, even among adolescents that live for salacious and prurient, and are routinely prosecuted/punished without even a whisper in the news or Wikipedia. But adolescents that have not developed their own identity and live in a world defined by idealizations/stereotypes because they have an underdeveloped sense of self and others, as all children do, is not the place to look for adult characterizations on interactions between various groups. A fourteen year old gamer whose only real-life "adult relationship" with a women comes from a torn out and sticky page he got from his older brother is not the starting point for complex adult discussions on misogyny, feminism or women (nor is their strategy for winning battles in violent video games a starting point for foreign policy). And while a 14 y/o may not be able to distinguish his relationship with that torn-out picture and a mature adult relationship (or his fantasy relationship with Katniss Everdeen with an adult relationship), adults can, and should. Those sites offer no real insight into anything other than the minds of juveniles and transferring it here only makes WP more juvenile. --DHeyward (talk) 05:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I thought we agreed to disagree? Now you're arguing with me about things I haven't even said. Maybe someone else wants to explore your theories about adolescent boys, but I don't. Kaletony (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "Ignore" may work for those who can forget about this matter once it disappears from this page, but it won't help the editors and admins who have spent many hours struggling with these articles and the barrage of new editors. I've never had to use revision delete so many times on a single set of articles before, which should give you an idea of the seriousness of this matter. Gamaliel (talk) 15:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: why have you not used sanctions for "biographical content" problems. The rest of us cannot read what you revdel. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I am considering issuing topic bans against particular editors under these sanctions if the irresponsible behavior continues, especially since the drama mongering on this board makes it unlikely that it will be able to seriously address this issue. I've already blocked one editor for 24 hours and had to warn another. Gamaliel (talk) 21:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I mean "ignore" the topic, as in sanction editors that are flocking here to "cover" reddit, 4chan and now wikipediocracy as if this is the permanent repository of whatever drama they created in those sites. --DHeyward (talk) 17:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I also agree that closing this now wouldn't be productive, 4chan is considered by many to be the cesspool of the internet now that it appears that they are involved some action needs to be taken. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The EU should impose sanctions on reddit, 4chan, and wikipediocracy for stoking unrest on Wikipedia. Count Iblis (talk) 18:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• As much as it would be very nice if all the nastiness on "teh internets" would pack its childish self up and go away, the obvious reality is that we still have some very serious unresolved issues here on Wikipedia, and consensus has not yet been reached. At the very least, we need to keep this open until the SPI investigation is resolved. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Anita Sarkeesian, again

Evidently sparked by some YouTube video, disruptive editors are trying to remove[31][32][33] an academic journal as a source from the Anita Sarkeesian article. See also this comment. Semi-protection keeps anons and new accounts from disrupting the article, but JJAB91 is evidently a confirmed account.--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

• It is time to impose discretionary sanctions of some kind. The comment in the last diff above is "Hi! Just wanted to say, I hope it's well worth your time keeping criticism off Anita's page, because it's coming whether you like it or not. It is out there, it's not being given attention, and we will not give up until it does. What's the point of what you're doing? Are you going to keep this up forever? Who's paying you?". It is not reasonable to ask a couple of volunteers to cope unassisted with the massive misuse of Wikipedia that many want. Johnuniq (talk) 03:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
  • How about putting flagged revisions on that article? Cla68 (talk) 05:15, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Good idea - endorsed. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
      • Two questions. (1) Who is Carpenter, and why do we care about his perspective? If he warrants an appearance by name and a quote, we ought to explain why he's relevant; nuclear physicists and historians of Late Antiquity are also scholars, but we wouldn't pay attention to their comments on Sarkeesian. (2) Why do you say that it's sparked by a YouTube video? I've never heard of this woman before, so maybe it's an obvious answer to someone familiar with her. Nyttend (talk) 05:34, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
        • I'll answer 2 for you: She is a noted pro-feminist in video game circles who has a series "Tropes vs Women in Video Games" (ETA: The YouTube video series in question) that points out some of her opinions with how games unfairly treat women (She and her series are notable per WP:N, as many game journalists and developers respect her observations). She is very outspoken in this and her opinions, as such , this series has drawn ire from the "broad" class of gamers to the point that she has been given death threats for speaking her opinion. She is also currently now a side of the GamerGate situation for similar reasons. --MASEM (t) 05:46, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Understood; thank you. Nyttend (talk) 06:10, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
            • Actually, when the OP says a video "sparked" the edits: a Youtube video specifically called out a part of the article for removal (and it was subsequently removed in the diffs from the OP); that's the central point of the discussion at Talk:Anita_Sarkeesian#Batting_against_.2Aexpunged.2A.27s_most_recent_video -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 15:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I support flagged revisions on Antia's article, just to cut down edit warring. I'd also suggest the same at Zoe Quinn and, once it's unprotected and assuming it is kept from its present AFD, GamerGate. All three of these are articles that, because their topics involve opinions from sites like reddit and 4chan, are going to be hot topics for at least a few weeks. --MASEM (t) 05:54, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
      • I don't see how flagged revisions would help—it will keep ephemeral nonsense off the pages, but the problem is that there are a significant number of active editors who will argue forever that GamerGate must be kept to give the world a lovingly documented list of allegations against two BLP individuals. There needs to be some discretionary sanctions (like WP:MRMPS) so normal procedures are not disrupted. Johnuniq (talk) 06:50, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

        I think discretionary sanctions are (already) available, under the auspices of WP:NEWBLPBAN, if there are admins willing to make judicious use of them. -sche (talk) 07:14, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

        • Correct, and as a starting point I've placed the BLP/DS notices on this article, as well as Zoe Quinn, Depression Quest and GamerGate. Black Kite (talk) 11:01, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

          • Dreadstar had been active in taking on the disruption, but it seems they're on a break right now.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:53, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Tropes vs. Women in Video Games is now being hit as well. I'd support flagged revisions at both articles - it won't solve all the problems, but it will help us out on some of the minor ones.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I should point out that there is a push by outside groups to "fix" WP's coverage of the various articles above, so anything that will help in the near future with BLP and other types of disruption would be appreciated even if we have to use 1RR prevention on these. --MASEM (t) 13:48, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Or just lock them all entirely on WP:THEWRONGVERSION (making sure they're BLP compliant, of course) until this particular teapot's tempest stops whistling. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:59, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually this is a reasonable step, though in the specific cases of some articles, I would even go beyond BLP and remove things that are leading to this offsite push to change the articles due to percieved bias; specifically removing some statements (even those sourced) of opinion on the matters.--MASEM (t) 15:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

• This has now extended to the Video game journalism article - see this and subsequent edits. Some revdel and page protection would be very nice. I can't do it myself, as I'm involved with this by extension of my work at the Zoe Quinn article. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 04:16, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• It's cool. I just put some GamerGate stuff in with some sauces. That should appease the angry gamer gods, though you should perhaps put a circle of salt around the article with Jack Thompson's still-beating heart at the center to ward off further enraged gaming spirits.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Protection expired today, could someone re-add semi protection or flagged revisions?--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:40, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Propose a new notability standard: If the article/subject didn't exist until reddit/4chan/wikipediocracy talked about the subject, it should be speedy deleted/salted. It's either trolling or feeding trolls and will be drama magnet. Feminism, gaming, misogyny, privacy violations of celebrities, etc, already exist in the adult versions in other sources. --DHeyward (talk) 02:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Amharic language / Til Eulenspiegel

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Amharic language (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Til Eulenspiegel (talk · contribs)
• Beetstra (talk · contribs)

(Links above added by --Ronz (talk) 18:08, 10 September 2014 (UTC))

I have yesterday, after examining a list of external links on Amharic language removed 7 of them as inappropriate per our external links guideline. I will be upfront, if I get proper rebuttal why the removal is wrong, then I am very willing to consider reinsertion (of all, or some). That edit was reverted by Til Eulenspiegel without policy based commentary, but with the reason that removal should be discussed. I re-reverted as I still believe these links were inappropriate, and was promptly re-reverted by Til Eulenspiegel. The links were then removed by another party (user:Yngvadottir), and a discussion was started on the talkpage (I maybe should have done that myself, but I did not feel the burden is on me to defend policy/guideline based removal, the insertion of the links should be defended, per WP:EL), re-reverted by Til Eulenspiegel and removed again by User:Ronz. Some of the links were re-added again by User:Pete unseth, but also re-removed as inappropriate. In the meantime, I did start a more general discussion at Wikipedia:External_links/Noticeboard#Learning_a_language, as I feel that these links are inappropriate on more pages (in fact, I have removed links since on other places as well).

The responses on the talkpage by User:Til Eulenspiegel have been plainly hostile, aiming more at me than at content, policy and/or guideline arguments (in fact, I have not seen any policy or guideline based reason for inclusion from him), so I am bringing the whole situation for review:

• "I was going to say someone does not seem too familiar with the Amharic language since anyone who is knows that a distinction is scarcely drawn between "Amharic literature" and "Christian literature" -- but nothing like that view from the armchair on another continent when you are crusading against the fact of what people believe"
• "It sounds like you have a special hostility to linking the Amharic language Bible here or making it available, which just makes me sad for you." - I removed 7 links, only one relating to the bible and one relating to Christianity. Where does this come from.
• "... I oppose your ill-informed reasoning to delete them, and suggest you find something else to do."
• "... This is the centerpiece of Amharic, if you dont like that fact that is your problem, that is your problem."
• "... Beetsra insists on showing of his literacy skills by continuing to write "bible" for "Bible" ...
• "... demonstrate your contempt ... " & "... your hatred for Christianity ..."

I'd like to have a review of my actions, and of the actions of User:Til Eulenspiegel in response to them. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 13:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I was about to raise a complaint against User:Beetstra here myself. It is beyond the point of absurd to have to explain to someone how a medical dictionary in English and another language is useful to researchers of the language, or how hearing a book read out loud in the language is useful to students of the language, as well as language courses. This user is single-handedly going willy nilly into a lot of languages he does not know or care about, and is enforcing his own interpretations by deleting such useful links, to the point of creating edit wars, and that should not go over too well.Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe Beetstra is HERE to goad other users, he then carefully cherry picks their responses to report them here and cause more disturbance Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:33, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I think Beetstra is in the right policy-wise; this first arose in connection with World Mentoring Academy, which was being spammed to a number of pages on languages; see this discussion at WikiProject Spam, which I linked when I opened the talk page section. The larger context is that we have a policy against including a list of language-learning resources, as we do against any other type of directory. There is surely an article on Amharic literature where some of these links would find a better home? That said, I did not participate further in the discussion because I trusted, perhaps naively, that editors would come to a consensus through reasoned discussion on whether to reinsert any of the links, rather than returning to having anything in there that includes Amharic, which appears to have become the de facto criterion at many of our articles on languages. Yngvadottir (talk) 14:29, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Who would write a policy against including language learning resources (even medical bilingual dictionaries for lesser known languages or harder to find vocabulary for) on language articles which are obviously of the greatest use for learners and researchers of a language? This seems misguided to put it mildly, and I have never seen that enforced on language articles before (since virtually all of them already include such links). Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 14:40, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a directory, and cannot be. We cannot be responsible for vetting language-learning resources, making sure they are not scams, so we should not imply endorsement by listing them. We also cannot hope to provide an adequately complete list. Plus there will be accessibility/worldwide coverage problems. And finally of course the promotional aspect (regardless of whether it's for-profit or not). Our policy on external links is precisely to avoid directories for all these reasons. Particular links should be discussed on the merits: for less studied languages and where we don't have appropriate articles on the literary heritage, there may be a better case for inclusion, as has been suggested for the Amharic Bible, but it still seems better to me to put such things in articles on the literature itself, even if such articles have to be started to do so. The fact that many language articles evidently have violated policy in this respect is not an argument for ignoring the policy; External links sections are notoriously prone to filling up with excess stuff. When this arose with a particular MOOC provider, it shone a light on the problem. Yngvadottir (talk) 14:55, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

You didn't answer my question. I asked "who" would write such a "policy" - clearly it wasn't done with the wide consultation of any language editors, but by someone "behind he scenes" and I'm specifically asking "who" and "how" this became a "policy" to frustrate linguistic study and research on wikipedia. Even ancient extinct languages and languages that have never been spoken have learning resources (not pay of course - we're talking about audio samples of books read in the language to show researchers what it sound like, medical dictionaries and the like.) You will never be able to selectively enforce this shortsighted and senseless, bogus "policy" picking Amharic to start out with. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:27, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I support Beestra on removing the links. It was too much, too excessive. Yes, Wikipedia should be able to demonstrate a language, but it should not be used to advertise language schools. Further , Til Eulenspiegel should be blocked or TBanned due to his incivility, battleground mentatility and general making a nuisance of himself. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 16:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I speak, read, write and teach fluent Amharic and what we see here are people with zero knowledge about the language whatsoever and don't care either, throwing their weight around with nonsensical "rules" and threatening one of those who knows something. Once again - and what makes this all really harebrained - is that nobody is arguing for "language schools" or any pay services. We are explicitly talking about a medical dictionary and an audio sample of a prominent book read in Amharic. Whatever your personal issues toward the topic really are here, blocking interested researchers' access to these materials appears purely philistine. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:52, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

As a bureaucrat of Amhari wikipedia I am on the wmf African languages list where we have been engaged in quite a lot of discussion on the need to improve translation of medical articles in African languages with the Ebola crisis. Such resources are invaluable to translators who are looking for this information, but somebody puts rules and lulz and ausing disruption ahead of common sense. I am currently drafting a letter to the wmf list to advise them of the block-threatening and backwards attitude problem toward African languages I have encountered numerous times with certain editors on ENGLISH wikipedia. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 16:57, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Alternately, you could consider working to influence the policy(s) that you find constricting. Tiderolls 17:34, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Still haven't found out an answer to who would write such a "policy" and by what process that didn't involve language article editors? And what is it now suddenly being enforced highly selectively to remove resources that are only useful to further research into certain languages ? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:38, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't speak for all observing this thread, but your questions presuppose facts and conditions to which I take exception. Tiderolls 17:48, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

There is no denying that language resources that assist scholars trying to find further information such as audio recordings, specialist dictionaries etc. have always been welcome on language articles until now, now we see for the first time they are being forcefully stripped from Amharic in a very ugly fashion, and I wish to know why, and demand to know WHO authored such "policy" and by what process. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:53, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@Til Eulenspiegel: Replying to the 'who' - WP:EL is a well-accepted guideline written by the community, and with community consensus. It is based on sections of WP:NOT, one of our 5 pillars. Also that was written by the community and has broad consensus. There may be links that I removed which can be defended, but that needs a proper reason - "No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense. The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link". You have not chosen to give that justification (you plainly reverted), despite repeated requests to do so. Alternatively, you start discussions why WP:EL/WP:NOT need to be changed on these points. When that consensus is reached and the change is implemented on those policies/guidelines, the links could be introduced as not violating those policies and guidelines anymore. As it stands now, I still think that these links are inappropriate (on this page), but please convince me otherwise. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 05:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Given Til Eulenspiegel's history, he should know better regarding the relevant policies/guidelines regarding external links, but most importantly he certainly does know that edit-warring and such disruptive interactions with others will only lead to another block. --Ronz (talk) 18:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I have not edited that article in over 24 hours, I am now preparing to advise the wmf African languages project list of the atmosphere here Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

The complaints are against your behavior, which has caused the atmosphere. How about addressing the complaints? Maybe just apologizing, striking out all the inappropriate comments you wrote, and saying that you'll avoid such behavior in the future? --Ronz (talk) 18:19, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't consider any of my comments inappropriate, so I'm not sure which one to strike out...? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:21, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

So you feel that the comments highlighted above are in no way similar to comments you've made in the past that resulted in your being blocked? --Ronz (talk) 19:17, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not striking out any comments, the deletion of a highly useful bilingual Amharic-English medical dictionary and an audio recording of the Amharic Bible so listeners can hear what the sounds of the language are, simply cannot be justified by any handwaving nonsense about a directory listing farm policy or whatever. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 19:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I had been surprised at all the external links that had been added to the Amharic language article. But I was more surprised, and disappointed, that almost all were removed. I reinserted the medical dictionary and was shocked that this one, too, was removed. I am disappointed at the way people on both sides of this have interacted. I hope that we can agree that a language article can list specialized dictionaries, but that computer software for the affiliated script belongs in another article. I gently ask that all parties speak gently. It may be hard to assume good faith, but I honestly believe that all want to see this Wikipedia page become an excellent page, even if we don't all agree on what that should include, or how to do it. Those of us who enjoy Amharic have no special authority to bypass policies in editing, but those who say they are acting on policy could remember that not everybody agrees on how to interpret and apply the policies. sälam lähullaccən yəst'ən— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pete unseth (talk • contribs)

I would argue here that a 'medical dictionary is too indirectly connected to the language, a well chosen English-<language> dictionary (as was now included) is about at the edge of it. I also think that the directory is well-chosen.

I agree that not everybody agrees on how to interpret and apply the policies, and therefore we discuss and get to consensus. Depending on the scope of the issue, that is on the talkpage of a page itself, or, if one of the parties feels that it is broader, either at a noticeboard or at the talkpage of the policy/guideline in question. I think I did ask for that on the talkpage, as well as giving the explanation that I do not see how the Amharic Bible helps in understanding the concept of the language - if I am wrong in that, which may very well be - I am, apparently, talking to people schooled in the subject, then please, explain that to me (however, I think that explanation should then be in the text, not just an (apparent) 'random' list of external links). I note that the removed link to the Bible would be appropriate on Amharic Bible (provided it is the generally accepted 'official' bible or otherwise defendable against our policies and guidelines). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 05:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Dirk, the only problem with your argument that a bilingual medical dictionary is of no utility to those studying the language and should thus be made unavailable by brute force, is that that argument is kind of retarded. (Not commenting on you as an editor, just your style of srguing) Would you mind please rephrasing that argument so another could possibly appreciate it? Thanks so much 71.246.153.24 (talk) 11:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Dear IP, the article is about the language and the article itself should try to explain that as much as possible. Some things that need to be explained about the language can not be included as to having too much detail, etc. That is why I say that a general dictionary is on the edge of that. It does not really explain more about the language (it explains words in the language), but it is a very useful resource with general interest in the subject. A medical dictionary is a step further, those focus on a specific sub-group of words in the subject (the medical terms) and are not of a general use. That is why I say that a medical dictionary is less directly linked to the subject. See WP:ELNO #13 codes this as "Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject." The Wikipedia article is about the whole language, not about the medical language. Hence a general dictionary is defendable as 'directly related', a medical dictionary is 'indirectly related'. That same argument is true for other links. Anyway, the inclusion should be justifiable, and I have hitherto no seen any justification of inclusion, let alone consensus that these links need to be there. Please convince editors on the talkpage that one can NOT understand what Amharic language is about without the medical dictionary (or Bible, or the Windows Vista Amharic Language Pack). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

By the way, you say "... thus be made unavailable by brute force" .. what you are arguing is that all links, even remotely suitable, should be included, turning Wikipedia in a linkfarm. Because, when linking to a medical dictionary, why not link to a glossary of chemical terms, and a freely available translation into Amharic of the proceedings of a language conference. That is not Wikipedia's task. We are not here to replace Google (where people, looking for an Amharic medical dictionary, will easily find it). Our guideline WP:EL is wording that as "it is not Wikipedia's purpose to include a lengthy or comprehensive list of external links related to each topic. No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense". That is, as linked, based on our pillar WP:NOT, stating: "There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Wikipedia" - the purpose being: to be an encyclopedia. That exclusion is not a retarded argument, it is what we are here for, to write an encyclopedia. Other websites (and even other MediaWiki Wikis) have other goals. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

If this were "Junior World Book", I might understand an argument such as "We'd better keep our Amharic article down to the bare minimum nuts and bolts, let's leave the more detailed info for professionals and researchers to the adult encyclopedias and info sources". 71.246.153.24 (talk) 12:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

But that is how we coded it in our policies and guidelines - keep the number of external links to a (bare) minimum (not the article, there is, apparently, still a lot of expansion room, as for example to explain why the Amharic Bible is of prime importance to understanding Amharic). However, for e.g. Wikiversity the story is different, as well as for external search engines. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, as I suggested above, the link to the Amharic Bible is a direct external link on Amharic Bible, which seems to be a missing subject, and I think that the inclusion there would be justified. Maybe also on Amharic language - but that argument, why it would be justified, is still not given. It was suggested that "Amhara" is considered virtually synonymous with "Christian" (which somewhat seems to conflict with that 91.5% Amhara people are living in the Amhara Region, and 82.5% of the people in the Amhara region are Orthodox Christians), still that does not convey to me why the Amharic Bible is needed for understanding what the language is about (nor does that come clearly forward from the prose of Amharic language). Anyway, this is a discussion that is supposed to be on Talk:Amharic language, as requested before; discussions on whether the scope of WP:NOT and/or WP:EL should change should be on WT:NOT and/or WT:EL respectively. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 12:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Seeing as nearly all language articles currently contain such resources of interest to interested scholars and researchers, it is good to see you are so passionate about your crusade to enforce your new "law" against them by starting with links to bilingual Amharic medical dictionaries and audio recording materials (a most diplomatic choice I must say) with the assistance of the toolboxes of sympathetic admins ready to take out any opposition... really... I only ask when is this thus-far highly selective enforcement going to be extended to the rest of the language articles on wikipedia? 71.246.153.24 (talk) 13:22, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You've got to start somewhere. Wikipedia is a work in progress. And that other pages contain something against our policies and guidelines is not a reason to propagate that. Glad to see you make the pages you edit a prime example of following policy and guideline. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• I a going to block Til Eulenspiegel those remarks on the talk page. I'm not much of a civility blocker but the toxicity there is intolerable: I find nothing there (or in this thread) by TE that is not a personal attack, an attempt to evade, or just repetitively disruptive and not to the point ("who would write a policy..."). They may well be an expert on the language, but they clearly are not an expert on how to conduct oneself on Wikipedia. As Tide rolls said, if you don't like a policy, try to change it--don't spray acid over those who in good faith edit in accordance with current policies and guidelines. Drmies (talk) 01:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• And pinging Bishonen, since I'm somewhat in a bind here. I blocked for a week which is, I think, appropriate given the editor's behavior in this conflict--but all this comes with a history...well, you can read the block log for yourself. I am loath to block indefinitely, since I'm just not in the mood, but I can understand if editors and admins see an indef block as a logical conclusion to that block history. Drmies (talk) 01:50, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies: The recent summary that has been used by Til Eulenspiegel permits indefinite block, and like before, talk page access can be revoked too. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 02:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Drmies's one-week block seems good to me. As for TE's rude edit summary when he blanked his page in response to being blocked, I'm against visiting retribution on a user for venting when they're blocked. Always was, always will be. It's human. Being blocked is a nasty shock whether or not you already have a block log. The sensible admin looks away. If TE is that rude again when/if he returns from the block, it'll be a different matter. Bishonen | talk 04:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC).

Thank Bish. OccultZone, sorry. Maybe an indef block can be justified, but what's the point--besides (I haven't seen the edit summary) we give blocked editors some room to respond. (I assume it's not antisemitic or racist or something like that.) Drmies (talk) 14:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies: Thanks for clarifying. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 14:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies: And if we add block evasion to the mix. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• 71.246.157.47 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Block evasion --Ronz (talk) 16:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

IF that's really him, and IF he is " a bureaucrat of Amhari wikipedia" like he says he is, he should loose his 'crat status on that Wikipedia as well , for incivility, battleground behavior, edit warring and then block evading. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 16:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, there's no doubt about those edits. :-( It's a duck from several angles, including being in the same /20 range as the block evasion in May, that I indeffed over at that time, e.g. this. I'm sorry to see it, but thank you, Ronz. I've changed the block to indefinite. Bishonen | talk 16:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC).

Sad but not unexpected. Thanks, Ronz, Beetstra, and Bishonen. Drmies (talk) 17:12, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• And after this rant perhaps TPA revocation is in order. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Copyright issues

We have a new editor, Wondafrash teklemariam re-inserting a link that may hold copyright-violating scans. The site says it has permission from publishers [34] but when I checked a book (link in my revert edit summary [35]) that publisher/copyright holder was not on the list. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:32, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Still going on [36], [37] --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:29, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have temporarily semi-protected the article to get the new editor to come to the table and discuss the issue. —C.Fred (talk) 19:32, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Protection is a good idea, but I don't think this editor is going to be coming to this table, at least, since I've just blocked them for being among the loudest of possible ducks as a sockpuppet of Til Eulenspiegel. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:44, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
      • The Bushranger, time for a community ban? He has moved from using IPs to evade his block to accounts, clearly he's not retired despite the banner he added to his tal page. Dougweller (talk) 05:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
        • I'd say 'not yet', but if it continues... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:31, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

What the heck is this?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am not sure where to address this but what is this? [38]. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I got a random message that include this "You were mentioned in their post "test". - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Is this some sort of hack?? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it's someone using Flow (and when they did some copy-pasting of a version of ANI, almost everyone that were on there is getting notified...), but.... why the heck does an IP have access to it? 2607:FB90:270A:C91E:E6EC:3C70:F405:154C (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is the editor in question. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 04:24, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Info at WT:Flow. Johnuniq (talk) 04:27, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for clearing things up. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:29, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Penwhale your page protection didn't do any good, maybe contact Wikimedia? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: the fact that an IP can rather unceremoniously ping many editors with something that's under testing is rather bizarre... - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 04:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

An IP editor could easily do that by doing what they did - which was subst WP:AN/I into another page. This actually isn't a Flow but, but an Echo bug. I'll be on the team about this tomorrow.--Jorm (WMF) (talk) 04:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Apart from the fact that in Flow, you don't need to substitute it, trying to transclude it (just like e.g. Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure is transcluded at the top of WP:AN) has the exact same effect, since Flow doesn't want transclusion and automatically changes it to pseudo-substitution. I just tested, and "subst" doesn't even work, you "have" to transclude it, but then it auto-pings everyone on that page. So, contrary to what Jorm said, this isn't a pure Echo bug but also (or even mainly) a Flow bug, one that was reported in February right after the initial deployment. Fram (talk) 06:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Was that a happy face emoticon in their edit summaries (not part of the coding right)? Shearonink (talk) 04:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

That was part of their edit summary (well, topic header). - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 04:55, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't get edit summaries in Flow. Fram (talk) 06:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Short summary:

• Nothing was substituted, only transcluded
• Flow automatically changes a transclusion to a substitution (technically, it's not a pure substitution apparently, but that's hardly relevant here)
• Flow in Echo was badly changed last week, and slightly improved this week (the devs refused to roll back the change laast week because that would cause more problems, but despite requests no examples of what problems that would be have been given)
• The problems that the transclusion of such pages give have been shown since February. I'm amazed that only now some IP tester or vandal has tried it. Nothing has been done to solve this problem.
• No edit summaries were used, as those don't exist in Flow
• Flow pages can not be deleted, and protection only works after a fashion (or sometimes not at all)
• The page where this happened was part of a 2-to-4-week test in February, which was indefinitely kept alive afterwards (for no apparent reason, mainly on the insistence of a WMF employee). It was said that pages could be turned back to the standard text format, but a forced test on another Flow page this week showed that this is not really true (lots of things get lost in the conversion, and the Flow topics remain parallel to the converted text)
• For a more general overview of Flow, the many (sometimes hard to believe) problems it has, and the rather one-sided discussion of them, please read WT:Flow. It may be time to have a thorough discussion about the immediate future of Flow on enwiki. Fram (talk) 07:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hey Fram, according to this revision (now deleted) this was a bulk copy and paste, so neither a subst nor a transclusion. (Correction: It was indeed a simple transclusion, I was confused by the output.) Echo is susceptible to mass pings and this would have happened in other contexts than Flow as well. How is this a Flow issue? It's possible I'm missing something, but if not, we should fix this in Echo (limit pings from one user if there's not already a throttle in place).--Erik Moeller (WMF) (talk) 07:40, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hey Erik Moeller, guess what, you're wrong! Of course, because you are no longer an admin here, you couldn't check it, but perhaps you could have believed those who are? I've now undeleted the edit (hope that hasn't caused a new round of pings), since, you know what, we can't see deleted revisions in Flow (unlike everywhere else in Wikipedia) without actually undeleting them. Too bad... Yes, you can force Echo everywhere, but Flow has made it considerably easier to do (and to do it without wanting to, as happened to me the first time). If you don't know how one can see the difference between a bulk copy and paste and a Flow transclusion, you can ask your Flow Product Manager (although he seems to have trouble answering questions lately). Fram (talk) 07:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Fram, thanks for taking a closer look even if I don't think it was necessary to undelete the page to do so; we could have investigated further without exacerbating risk of annoyance of other users. I recommend that we delete the comment again at this point.

Bulk notifications with transclusions have been an issue with Echo before Flow (cf. bugzilla:50082 and others) and can be generated by other means, but we'll fix any new issues specific to transclusions on Flow boards ASAP.--Erik Moeller (WMF) (talk) 08:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction of your post. As for "we could have investigated further without exacerbating risk of annoyance of other users.", I have a good solution for this. Take Flow of enwiki and only bring it back after most major bugs have been solved and missing tools have been added, and the people at enwiki agree that this seems to be the case and that the tool is ready for testing at enwiki. It will seriously reduce the risk of annoyance to other users and to yourself and your team. Fram (talk) 08:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Erik Moeller (WMF): I have first transcluded today AfD page on my sandbox, [39]. A 57 byte edit with no pings involved. I have then substituted it on my sandbox, [40] a 3277 byte edit with no pings involved. Any idea what would happen if I transcluded it on Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page? Care to try it out? Fram (talk) 14:20, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Fram: Mentions in transclusions work (that's why stuff like {{ping}} works), but regular mentions are restricted by namespace (Wikipedia: and talk only) and to comments within sections and with signatures. I haven't tested the exploitability in bulk. If you want to do bulk tests, please do so on test.wikipedia.org so you don't annoy users here.--Erik Moeller (WMF) (talk) 17:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Erik Moeller (WMF): What is mw:HHVM and why are you using it here? KonveyorBelt 17:32, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Which was not what I was asking about. If you substitute a page, you go down one level, i.e. you only display / save the code of that page. With Flow, you do cascading translusion, you transclude things that are transcluded as well. That is why WP:ANI is about 500K big, but the edit that started this was about 950K big. If you would have tried the edit I suggested, the difference would have been a lot larger (relatively) and the difference in who gets pinged as well (if you add an AfD to the daily log, the editors that have edited the other AfDs on that page don't get pinged of course; but with Flow, such things would happen). Apart from that: if you want months or years of testing, do it on test or mediawiki so you don't annoy users here. Fram (talk) 18:13, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the others, I do not like how there are no edit summaries, I do not like that it pings users each time a response is made, and I do not like the idea in general. It may be a great breakthrough idea to you guys but so far from what I have seen here nobody has warmed up to the idea as there are too many problems with it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Fram: Are Wikipedia users going to have any opinion on the matter or is Flow something that is just going to be forced upon everyone? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

They only roll it out to pages that have agreed to it, or where they think they have agreed to it, or where a WMF member is the main driving force, or where the page is sponsored by a WMF grant. Tests are temporarily but never get ended. Errors in rollout don't get reverted but patched somewhat sometimes. They will not roll out anything we don't agree on, but it is a foregone conclusion (and said by devs in so many words) that Flow is the Future and that Flow will eventually be mandatory. No amount of errors, no matter how serious can convince them that ending the tests here and going back to the drawing board is necessary. If the problems get too serious, they simply ignore them. As an example, you can see WT:Flow#Deletion of Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Flow test, the results of their first and only test to delete a Flow page here (forced by an MFD). The results are a complete disaster, but not a single WMF member has responded to this. They are fast to mention when something seems to work, or when something is not a Flow error but an Echo problem (see this very discussion), no matter if they are right or wrong; but they keep mum about real Flow problems that are rather serious. It's the new Community Engagement Strategy, which is the same as the old one, but with nicer packaging. Our opinion will be asked, and will be ignored if it doesn't fit their needs. Fram (talk) 18:27, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Flow really reminds me of Skype or a chat-room type of thing I really hope that there is a community discussion on the matter but history has shown with anything that money invested speaks louder than anyone ever could even if it has driven major companies under as a result. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Fram is correct. I transcluded ANI onto the Flow page for lulz. I typed {{WP:ANI}}, only half expecting it to work. I, for one, applaud the WMF on this extension. This might be as much fun as the MoodBar. :D I did also try a second time (this time with a colon "subst" between the left curly braces and WP:ANI), because my phone did not show the transclusion at first. The subst: didn't work. Good luck with all your endeavors and I look forward to the next rollout. :P 2607:FB90:2705:E23E:FD79:23B3:4FBE:79B6 (talk) 08:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

edited. 2607:FB90:270E:5DC6:4D14:C867:C698:A8CB (talk) 08:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• So, let's see here: No edit summaries were used, as those don't exist in Flow - So, not using edit summaries is considered disruptive, but now they want to make all discussion pages so that you can't use them? Flow pages can not be deleted, and protection only works after a fashion (or sometimes not at all) - So we won't be able to delete talk pages when we need to move them in order to move pages? This is a good idea why? The current discussion system is not broken. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Yep, what The Bushranger said. GiantSnowman 08:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Usually, edit summaries on talk pages are just something like "cmt" or "re", and a lot of the time they are left out altogether. You only really need them when you're doing something unusual like changing auto-archive settings. Do we really want to force users to type "cmt" or "re" every time they leave a Flow message? — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 09:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• There is quite some room between "force" and "don't allow". No one is forced to use edit summaries now, but that's not the same as no longer allowing them at all. Fram (talk) 09:20, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Speak for yourself; I try to give something better than cmt, re, etc. most of the time when I'm on a talk page... it's useful for people who have the talk page watchlisted. Particularly if I make what I consider a strong point, I try to summarize it so watchlisters have a chance of reading it. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we take this off of the wiki until things like protection work? Chillum 08:44, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Obviously Flow is broken. Epicgenius (talk) 15:30, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thirded, pro forma, not that the WMF will care. BethNaught (talk) 18:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

What is needed to close this down on enwiki?

Considering the discussion here, and the reactions on WT:Flow and the test pages, I would like to know something.

@Erik Moeller (WMF), Philippe (WMF), and DannyH (WMF): (feel free to notify other WMF people if necessary): what would convince you to remove all Flow test pages from enwiki for the time being, and to come back, once all major functionalities have been built and tested and all major bugs fixed, to get consensus to re-enable it? This discussion? A vote? An ArbCom case? Something else? Fram (talk) 19:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Can the WMF at least protect or otherwise limit editing of those pages to a very narrow group of users? I'm not at all technically adept, but it sure looks that incident provides a road map for vandals to abuse the notification system, if not render it almost useless. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 19:22, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Over the last day or so, a couple of vulnerabilities in the way that Flow uses Echo mentions were found by users testing the limits of the system. A user transcluded a busy talk page into a Flow message, and sent a lot of Echo pings to users who hadn't used Flow before. We've identified those problems, and we're currently writing and backporting fixes that should take care of those holes by the end of the day.

After the current fixes are deployed, we'll keep monitoring and getting feedback. If we see that there are still cases where a significant number of users are being distracted or impeded from doing their work, then we have a few options that we can use, starting with protecting the test pages.

There's still a lot of work to be done on Flow, including some major features that haven't been built yet. That's why it's currently deployed on a small number of test pages, here and on a few other wikis. Definitely let us know if you see more problems that are currently distracting people who aren't choosing to participate on the test pages. Being unfinished, or unpopular with some people, isn't necessarily a sufficient reason to pull the test pages. DannyH (WMF) (talk) 19:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@DannyH (WMF): Thank you for once again ignoring the big question. Can you please respond as to what level of community agreement would be necessary to withdraw Flow. BethNaught (talk) 19:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I was going to wait and see the reaction to BethNaught, but really... "Over the last day or so, a couple of vulnerabilities in the way that Flow uses Echo mentions were found by users testing the limits of the system. " Really? The last day or so? Have you read Wikipedia talk:Flow/Archive 8#Flow + Echo = Error? from 5 February 2014? As for "users testing the limit of the system", first this was far from a test of the limits of the system (although it's nice that typing ten characters into Flow is already testing the limits, and second if you don't do this kind of tests before going live, then don't be surprised that it happens here (isn't that what you actually wanted?) When you release software, don't just test whether it works as expected when people use it in the right manner (which it doesn't anyway), but also test whether it is fool- and vandal-proof. No, you can't predict everything. But this test was extremely simple, and had been done with disastrous results seven months ago already. Fram (talk) 20:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

"Being unfinished, or unpopular with some people, isn't necessarily a sufficient reason to pull the test pages". Maybe, maybe not. But having security flaws that lead to disruption of other users' work is a reason not to deploy software on a production system. Deltahedron (talk) 20:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Aside from active dangers such as security flaws, we really shouldn't attempt to stop a test midway through; it's not like a deployed thing that is demonstrably causing problems. Where are the security flaws here? I've read through this section but didn't notice anything about security flaws until this most recent comment. Nyttend (talk) 21:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

As I understand it, this latest piece of vandalism used a known existing bug to produce numerous bogus notifications with no obvious provenance to uninvolved editors. I call that a security flaw: a trivial edit that produces a disproportionately disrruptive effect. Deltahedron (talk) 21:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, okay. I hear "security flaw" and think something with password theft, unexpected auto-logging-out of editors, etc. Nyttend (talk) 22:07, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it's an unfortunate distraction. I'm sorry for the disturbance. The fix is going to be deployed to en.WP in about two hours. I can't really speak to bug reports that were filed in February; this became a top priority issue when we saw the abuse happening overnight, and we're releasing the fix in the earliest deployment window. Again, I'm sorry that there was this distraction that got in the way of people's work. DannyH (WMF) (talk) 22:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@DannyH (WMF): I think you guys really need to do more tests and fixes on flow, I will approach it with an open mind in the future but I cant say im big on it being in the form of a chatroom type of thing. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@DannyH (WMF): I also think you have still an unanswered question. Just say if it's not up to you, then we'll ask someone else. BethNaught (talk) 22:24, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@Erik Moeller (WMF) and Philippe (WMF): perhaps either of you can answer the question DannyH has so nicely ignored twice (which is a quite clear answer in itself)? What would convince you to remove all Flow test pages from enwiki for the time being, and to come back, once all major functionalities have been built and tested and all major bugs fixed, to get consensus to re-enable it? This discussion? A vote? An ArbCom case? Something else? Fram (talk) 04:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I cannot express how offensive it is to have a very reasonable question asked and to get an answer that does not address it at all. The complete disregard for consensus and seemingly intentional failure to communicate significantly compounds the technical failures of this flow project.

Frankly if not for the fact that they are apparently beyond community checks and balances this project would not be allowed on this wiki in its current state. This sort of behavior would not be tolerated from a user lacking special status from the foundation, people are often blocked for forcing their desired version of Wikipedia against consensus. There is much talk about working with the community but the actions of those imposing flow on us shows that this is lip service only.

I fear that the answer is not forthcoming because the answer is that there is nothing we can do to stop them. I think they have every intention of continuing regardless of the opinion of the volunteers who wrote this encyclopedia. Chillum Need help? Type {{ping|Chillum}} 04:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

At this point it's in early development and used on three production pages and one test page. The main reasons to disable it would be:

1) The two WikiProjects or the Co-op page participating it in the trial want it turned off. In that case we'd disable it for those talk pages and help them convert back to the old format, no questions asked.

2) It's causing continued problems for people not participating in the tests. We deployed fixes for the issues reported here today (by limiting post size and pings). Any remaining issues with pingspam, AFAICT, could equally easily be exploited anywhere else. Page protection should be working in case of emergency (this was also improved recently). What other issues are there that are dealbreakers for having this small number of pages Flow-enabled?

Disabling completely is on the table if there are dealbreaker issues for users not participating in the tests that can't be easily fixed. We can test in other contexts (e.g. smaller wikis where people are willing to play with it) to iron out issues. So this is not a matter of pride or anything. We want to do the right thing, both for the users on en.wp who want to play with it and for the larger community who's concerned about system-wide impact.

Thanks, --Erik Moeller (WMF) (talk) 05:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No thanks. You are giving reasons to turn it off. I'm not asking about those. What you present is we find bugs, and you decide if they are serious enough. What I want to know is what kind of community process is expected to be sufficient to make it clear that enwiki at the moment no longer wants to test this or to host these test pages. Whether you agree that the issues are serious or not is completely besides the point, and is still you imposing your will instead of listening to what the community wants. I'm not saying "turn it off", I'm not saying "the community wants you to turn this off", I am asking what kind of community input would be considered a sufficient consensus for the WMF to turn it off. Your reply seems to be "no input will ever be sufficient if the WMF decides to continue the tests". It is not up to you to decide whether e.g. requests to only have once the promised "you-can-convert-back-to-wikitext" really works are sufficient, or whether requests to have working history, contributions, or functions like undo, rollback, delete, ... are sufficiently serious; if the feeling here is that these, individually or taken together, are sufficient to end the test, then you should end the test, without ifs or buts. Fram (talk) 06:58, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Fram, I think you did get an answer about the kind of consensus that would be needed. The consensus would have to come from the wikiprojects dealing with the affected pages, unless there are sufficiently bad bugs to affect people in other places. This is a bit different from normal en.wp practice where wikiprojects don't have special authority (LOCALCONSENSUS) over the pages they support, but it's not unreasonable in itself, and might reflect normal practices on other wikis. Anyway you can't really say your question wasn't answered. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 14:08, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

But that's of course not how it works. A project can not decide to keep working with a tool or product if the general consensus is that the tool should not be deployed on enwiki anywhere. Furthermore, the tool does affect other people, not only through the pings but e.g. also through (at least) one person getting edits in his contribution list that he never made. Fram (talk) 14:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Or to put it differently: the projects can ask for it to be turned on or off, no problem; unless the community (in whatever form, see my initial question) decides that for whatever reason, justified or not they no longer want Flow anywhere on enwiki. The WMF is encouraged to join the discussion, convince us that we are making a bad decision, show where our arguments are wrong; but in the end, it's not their turf, it's not their decision that we have to keep testing this on enwiki. Fram (talk) 14:40, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You're now saying you don't like the answer, which is different from saying you didn't get an answer, so ok, that's a reasonable point to proceed from. But no, I don't believe the wiki software or even the editing culture is "our turf". Those of us (including me) who still edit here are just a self-selected group of fuckups. The community has shown consistent incompetence on the technical side and gradual degeneracy into a morass of bureaucracy and COI on the content side, so I think we need a shake-up. The project's real stakeholders are its readers and the world at large, and when the WMF and the community disagree on what's better for the world, I'm not going to automatically assume the (dysfunctional) community is right. On technical matters the WMF has a good track record, so I tend to cut them some slack when they make an error here or there. Erik: I'd be interested to know why this feature has to be tested on en.wp instead of on meta or someplace like that. The issue of revdel raised by Bushranger also seems important. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 16:24, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm saying that I don't consider it an answer. If the answer is "the community has no say in this, it's the projects on individual basis and the WMF for the whole test", then let them say so outright. Then I will be dissatisfied with the answer, but we will have gotten one. The current reply seems to imply the answer I just presented, but is absolutely not clear on it. Fram (talk) 17:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The projects are part of the community, of course. 50.0.205.237 (talk) 17:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Let's ask an additional simple question, as well. At WP:FLOW, it states that Flow is intended to replace - fully, I presume - "the current Wikipedia talk page system". I see above, statements that Flow pages cannot be deleted.

The simple question is this: is it true or is it not that Flow pages cannot be deleted?

And as a follow-up: if the answer is 'they can', is this 'by anyone who can currently delete a Wikipedia page', or does it require additional procedure?

And thirdly (which just occured to me): is it possible to perform Revision Deletion on Flow discussion pages?

If the answer to any of those questions is 'no', then Flow CANNOT be utilised on Wikipedia, full stop, because the deletion of discussion pages is often necessary as part of routine maintenance by admins (page moves, etc.), and revdel ability on talk pages is something that is (far-too-)often required by WP:BLP. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

People will be able to delete Flow boards. Right now, the only way to turn a Flow board on is for a developer on the Flow team to enable it on a single-page basis. One of the developers is in the process of creating a Special page that will allow people with the appropriate user rights to enable Flow on an existing page, or create a new Flow page. That system will also include the ability to reverse this -- to convert an existing page back to the way that it was, or to delete the new Flow page. That ability isn't currently in admins' hands, because, as people have correctly pointed out, Flow isn't ready for widespread use. DannyH (WMF) (talk) 16:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

In your last sentence, there is no logical link between the first part and the last, despite the "because" you interjected. The reverse of that sentence, that Flow isn't ready for widespread use because (i.a.) no admin tools are available would be correct. But that's not a reason not to have them now. On the contrary, there is already a page where the ability was needed, but it turned out to go all haywire. Please don't try to answer pertinent questions with illogical statements. Fram (talk) 17:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I was approached a few months ago to test Flow's integration with checkuser and oversight. I found a number of major bugs that were blockers for any kind of deployment, and those were fixed within a few weeks. I also found a number of minor bugs which were less important. It was my opinion at the time that after those major bugs were fixed then Flow's integration with the checkuser and oversight extensions was good enough for the limited test deployments that were proposed. To date, I've seen no evidence that this functionality isn't good enough for these test deployments. So, as a checkuser and oversighter, I'm satisfied for now. --(ʞɿɐʇ) ɐuɐʞsǝp 17:05, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Just for the avoidance of any potential issues, I'd like to explain my non-response... I'm not on the product team, and have zero input into what it would take to get to the action Fram originally asked. It's outside of my department, team, and expertise. :-) I wasn't dodging the question, it's just not within my line of work. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 17:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Philippe, your user page says "My role is to serve as an advocate for and to the Wikimedia community." Which of those processes would it need for it to become clear to you that you should advocate on our behalf to "get to the action Fram originally asked"? Or what other scenario, if none of those? Begoon ^talk 18:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Huh. Quite right. My userpage needs updating. Since the addition of the Community Engagement (Product) team, that advocacy role has been subdivided. I'll make that change; I can certainly understand the confusion. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 01:52, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

At this point, unless there is some action that requires intervention by an administrator, perhaps the discussion should continue at Wikipedia talk:Flow or mw:Talk:Flow. Deltahedron (talk) 18:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Single Purpose Accounts

Hello, I've notice several WP:SPA editors on the pages related to Israel and the Gaza War. I'm wondering how to deal with these editors. As far as I understand it editors who edit in order to push a certain POV or advocate a certain perspective are not allowed on Wikipedia. Is this correct? If so is there anything I need to do other than just tag those users who I think might be single purpose accounts?Monopoly31121993 (talk) 19:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I've moved this section so it's in chronological order. Graham87 05:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Monopoly31121993. No, it's not allowed. The best thing you can do is alert those users to the existence of general sanctions for Palestine-Israel topics by posting the template {{subst:Ds/alert|topic=PI}} on their talkpages. Just start a new section and copypaste the curly-brackets thing you see there, add your sig, and it'll expand to full information for them. I hope that will be sufficient to get them to edit neutrally. I'm obliged to hope that because I'm supposed to assume good faith. Actually with new SPAs, experience shows it rarely is sufficient. But with the template, it will be easier for administrators to sanction them if the tendentiousness does continue. Bishonen | talk 09:24, 13 September 2014 (UTC).

Thank you, Bishonen. I also noticed that one of the accounts seems to already have this tag on their talk page and it has been there for several weeks. Is there a different procedure for users who already have this tag on their talk pages?Monopoly31121993 (talk) 10:02, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The way I recollect it,Monopoly31121993, when you try to add the template, you'll be asked to check the page history to see if it's already there. (The template expires after one year, and during that year the page should also have a category that shows it.) And if it's there, and they've been editing in a problematic way after getting it, you proceed to the next step: discuss with them on their page, and if that doesn't help, take them to ANI. Or, if you've already tried talking with the user in this case, why not just give their name here and alert them that they're on ANI. You can use the template {{subst:ANI-notice}} to do so. These template procedures are very barbed-wire-y and bureaucratic IMO… they're intended to simplify things, and for people who're used to them, no doubt they do. Anyway, if you've tried to discuss to no avail, or if other people have, give the account name here and now, with a sentence about the problem with that particular person, and I'll take a look at the contributions, unless some other admin does it first. Bishonen | talk 12:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC).

User talk:Kingsindian is the page that has already been tagged with the template back in July. I recently tried to raise the issue with User:Kingsindian on the talk page of 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict a few days ago but it seems that that conversation was removed or has been archived somewhere else. Please let me know if I can be of assistance and I will notify User:Kingsindian on his talk page that this conversation is ongoing here.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 13:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Since AN/I is on my watchlist, I know this conversation is going on. I also got notified by WP:ECHO. However, it is not clear to me what the issue is. Even if I'm a WP:SPA (I don't think I am, but Monopoly31121993 is free to think so), it is hard to respond to vague accusations of POV pushing. Kingsindian (talk) 13:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I'm not making accusations of POV pushing here. I'm just saying that if you look at the edits made by Kingsindian and also at least one other user who I tagged on the talk page and left the tag to their talk page, the style of editing appears to meet the SPA criteria. I don't know why Kingsindian started using the account after a long period without using it and I don't know whether the purpose was for advocacy or whatever but the pattern seemed consistent enough to me to qualify as a SPA.Monopoly31121993 (talk) 14:34, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Monopoly31121993, it's not being an SPA per se that's disallowed, but POV-pushing and tendentious editing. It's true that there's significant overlap between the two. Anyway, now that the editors you were thinking of have DS templates (or are there more of them?), I feel I'd better leave any hypothetical warnings or sanctions to other admins, as I'm lamentably ignorant in this area. If you see unrepentant POV-pushing anywhere, please report it on this board, with diffs. Bishonen | talk 19:02, 13 September 2014 (UTC).

Canvassing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I am bringing this here, because when the behaviour in question was pointed out on the talk with the intention merely of stopping it, I have been repeatedly challenged to do so.

User being reported: User:AmritasyaPutra. notified.

I had been involved in a long and unpleasant content dispute with said user, and Reddyuday on Talk:Akhil Bharatiya Itihas Sankalan Yojana. 5 days ago (In a dispute that has lasted several weeks already) AmritasyaPutra posted to the talk page of Bladesmulti, essentially asking for help. When I called this canvassing on the talk, I was asked to go to ANI with my accusations. I also later received a message on my talk, which said that that accusation had been a personal attack. Amritasya also then stored this.

All I want, at this point, is an admin opinion on whether the post to Blades' talk was, in fact, canvassing. If it was, then perhaps a warning. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:24, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Statement of AmritasyaPutra

Ping to involved editors: @Bladesmulti:, @Joshua Jonathan:, @Reddyuday:, @Sarvajna:, @Dharmadhyaksha:

The accusation of canvassing was made very strongly, on two different grounds, on this talk page section:link

Vanamonde93 also made comments on my competence to edit on that talk page, one section: link

Note: The accusations have been carried over by Vanamonde93 to this unrelated talk page discussion: link.

I had requested him to take his complaints of canvassing and competence against me to ANI instead of disrupting article talk page discussions, finally I put this warning: diff link.

This may be related: I had warned Vanamonde93 for outing in that same talk page in this section: link

This may also be related: Vanamonde93 reported me for 3RR violation earlier for same article, the closing admin took 'no action', and pointed out to Vanamonde93 not to make remarks like "Are you deliberately being dense" (to me): diff link.

--AmritasyaPutra✍ 02:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

This is not Arbcom, you don't have to make separate sections for each user. I am not interested in discussing most of that, because how the "accusation" was made does not change your post on Blades' page. I had also already notified Reddy and Blades. Finally, the accusation of "outing" refers to me using Amritasya's old username, which I had interacted with more frequently, and which was (and still is) visible to the public on Wikipedia. Vanamonde93 (talk) 04:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It was the first time someone was insisting on calling my by name despite repeated warnings. I did not know the entire procedure, can the reviewing admin suppress such edits on the concerned article talk page? I have not done canvassing. You say in the opening statement your "intention merely of stopping it, I have been repeatedly challenged to do so." which is nonsensical because you were requested each time to take the repeated accusations to ani and keep the article talk page discussion to the content dispute. The warning I put on your talk page mentioned accusation of competence also which you have subtly brought up in an unreleated article talk page too. Blades did not comment at all in the section where I requested him to give his independent opinion -- that section discusses content that was inserted six times by you against consensus and it finally stands removed by JJ too. --AmritasyaPutra✍ 04:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Both of you, just knock it off. You won't get it settled this way. Go read the Dhammapada, or any Indian Guru: don't stick to hatefull thoughts. And Van, you also notified me. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, perfectly acceptable JJ. One request: could you please make similar observation on this talk page: Talk:Vidya_Bharati? That should close all the loose ends. Thank you! My personal closing remarks(will not prolong the discussion): Closing admin in the previous ANI case against me by Van also noted his offensive tone and requested him to avoid it(diff given above). Van did make offensive remarks and made accusations on article talk pages repeatedly which I pointed out to him, I did not appreciate its continuation and put a warning on his talk page. Which was immediately removed and this ANI filed. I needed to respond to this ANI. --AmritasyaPutra^T 09:14, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I won't. I'm not going to read yet another quarrel. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 09:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay. On Vidya_Bharati talk page he has posted about ABISY -- it is not another case. I am not a willing participant, I must defend myself. Van, if you have any concerns about my behaviour as you have expressed on Talk:Vidya_Bharati please conclude it now/here. I do not have anything to say there what I have not already said and consider it closed from my end. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutra^T 09:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Both AmritasyaPutra and Vanamonde93 may have accused each other of canvassing but if we look into the definition of canvassing we would better know that there was nothing wrong with what you both were doing. In this type of canvassing, you invited only those into discussion who are regulars of Indian articles. Just like Joshua Jonathan told, I think it is really better to read some book especially the dharma related, and be resolutive like you already been so many times. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay. JJ suggested dhammapada, I prefer that over dharma sometimes, or perhaps they are same. Let me dig in library. ;-) Aside, not in continuation of this discussion and no reply expected: After SPI was done and it was revealed that Van already knew of the socks I raised doubt about such conduct that it should have been clearly declared. I understand the editor wants a clean start and it was a trivial oversight. So, I did not mention it here at all. I know it was not canvassing and neither did I canvass. If I level such an accusation I will make it on ANI directly instead of repeatedly threatening on article talk page. Of course, I was not pleased with all the name calling and accusations and put a warning. I could not have let these continue without as much as defending myself? --AmritasyaPutra^T 14:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

JJ, I notified you as Blades' mentor. Canvassing is inviting an uninvolved editor to influence consensus; by virtue of your position, you are somewhat involved in everything Blades does. Not responsible for, but involved, certainly. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:34, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I see; you've got a point there. Anyway, I know Van as a honest and serious editor, and I've seen AmritasyaPutra responding in a very friendly way. You both hav e the best intentions, and both of you were touched/insulted/whatever by the responses of the other. We can wait for either one of you to be the first to step back, say "sorry", whatever, but I think the best thing is just to cool down, let it rest for a while, and just get over it - both of you. Wikipedia hurts, sometimes. Just let it be, okay? Life ain't perfect, we humans ain't perfect, so, act wise. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I step back. Thank you. --AmritasyaPutra^T 20:08, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Two editors collaborating on biased degrading of Wikipedia articles

I'll keep it as short as possible. Two editors, User:Pincrete and User:Bobrayner are harassing Boris Malagurski-related articles, mostly the article about his film The Weight of Chains. Even though these articles are very well sourced (not many articles on Wikipedia have so many references per sentence), they've expressed their dislike and anti-Malagurski bias very directly several times, and are now ganging up to discourage those who actually want to help contribute to Wikipedia in regards to articles on the matter. For standing up for neutrality, I've been accused of being Boris Malagurski, his friend and on his payroll, accused that I just want to praise him and his work with no criticism, while my main objection is that negative criticism should be well sourced, and that well sourced facts and positive critique shouldn't be removed. In essence, I would like neutrality.

However, whenever I list reputable sources that support any claim, they always jump to say "No consensus!", and thus any serious editing can't be done. Most recently, after I added information and quotes from a review from VICE (magazine), Bobrayner quickly reverted it [41], again citing "clearly no consensus to add this" (not a word dropped on the talk page from him). When I even expanded a review to include more negative criticism of the film, but argued that blog posts can't be considered as reliable sources for criticism, again the screams of "no consensus" to remove the blogger's rants. Pincrete keeps canvassing ([42]) and Bobrayner gladly jumps in whenever needed. This is starting to get very annoying. I've lost my nerve once and engaged in an edit war, I don't want to get into that kind of communication anymore, I would like to see what is it that has to happen so that I can peacefully edit and collaborate with those who didn't come to Malagurski-related articles with an agenda, but with an honest wish to contribute in the spirit of Wikipedia. Editing here was fun when I started, but if I have to argue with people whenever I add reliably sourced content that fulfill Wikipedia criteria, I'm out. If pushing POV, manipulating, canvassing and getting away with it just because some articles are less popular than others is the essence of Wikipedia, please let me know so that I can make my decision on whether to stay. Thanks in advance, --UrbanVillager (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Question from Pincrete, may I ask the time-frame in which this is likely to be heard? I ask as there a very large number of diffs to assemble to answer this properly. Pincrete (talk) 00:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no guarantee that anyone will respond. However, if you keep it brief, you'll have a much better chance. Few people will read an excessively long post that details every minor transgression made by an editor. I would suggest you try to keep it to the length of UrbanVillager's post (or shorter). I skimmed over the article's talk page (and a few others), and I'd suggest that you two could probably benefit from content-related dispute resolution, such as the dispute resolution noticeboard, a third opinion, an RFC, or asking WikiProject Film for unbiased input. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's quite a long complaint about a small part of the problem. Let me try to condense the broader story, for the good folk of WP:ANI.

• UrbanVillager is a single-purpose account whose only work is to promote Malagurski, an obscure filmmaker. Tellingly, UrbanVillager writes promotional content about Malagurski's work before information is actually released to the public. Articles on these films have, historically, contained only positive content - and impressive lists of awards (some of which are impossible to reconcile with real-world evidence), and UrbanVillager will automatically revert anyone who tries to fix it. Just look at the history of The Weight of Chains]. Normally I wouldn't bother much with mere spam, but Malagurski's films make some radical claims about recent Balkan history, and UrbanVillager has tweaked content to suit those claims.
• The combination of promotional editing, misuse of sources, and radical views on recent Balkan history, can lead to angry comments by various people, although I've tried to remain civil. In a previous attempt at dispute resolution, UrbanVillager insisted that several editors - the folk he has diligently reverted over the years - are all conspiring to malign Malagurski. It's difficult to reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
• The latest problem is about some reviews of The Weight of Chains. UrbanVillager has spent years adding positive wording and removing negative wording and reverting anyone who disagrees; that's his job. In the last few days, two different uninvolved people (Psychonaut (talk · contribs) and EdJohnston (talk · contribs)) had warned UrbanVillager for editwarring and for "making unilateral changes"; UrbanVillager did it again; I made a single revert, because there was clearly no consensus for UrbanVillager's wording; so UrbanVillager tried asking EdJohnston for support, and when EdJohnston disagreed, UrbanVillager started this thread instead.

bobrayner (talk) 08:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Response from Pincrete Bobrayner has expressed very succinctly the broader issues, so I will focus on recent events and UrbanVillager's user behaviour, which is, frequently abusive, wilfully perverse, and shows no meaningful engagement with the guidelines or values of Wikipedia (I can provide MANY examples of personal abuse, several of racist abuse many of wilfully perverse behaviour or wilful mis-quoting, but do not do so here for reasons of brevity). I believe this ANI is little more than a smokescreen by UrbanVillager, to hide his own behaviour and to retain WP:Ownership of these pages.

Firstly, I ask that the recent talk page be read (to the extent that you can endure it), here:-[43]. This is talk over less than 2 days (9th-11th Sep) about the 'Criticism' section, of the article. The background is that only 4 days before, both UrbanVillager and myself had been warned against making ANY non-consensus changes to this section of the article (or to one disputed word). On the morning of 11th September, I posted a clear statement that UV's proposed changes did NOT have my consent, and did not appear to be RSs either, here:-[44] nb para 3 of changes panel, 'Where this discussion has got to … 90 minutes later, he replied here:-[45] nb end of para 1 of changes panel 'So, the review goes in the article.' … some 3 minutes later, he made this edit:-[46] which he claims in his edit reason, is 'as per talk page' . This was not ONE controversial edit, but the complete rewriting of the entire section.

When challenged by EdJohnston, later that day, UrbanVillager made the minimum reverts explicitly demanded by EdJohnston, but retaining ALL of the material, which he had sought to insert that morning, some of which - he had every reason to know - was factually wrong about a reviewer whom he wished to disparage, content which he certainly knew did not have consensus. It was at this point that Bobrayner, made the change he did, though I had already approached EdJohnston, asking permission to do so.

UrbanVillager's opening statement contains two - very telling - 'errors', firstly he links to the VICE magazine Wikipedia entry, not to the actual 'review' which I expressed strong reservations about here:-[47], (which one gets to via the VICE site here:- [48] … click on 'details'). Can somebody correct me if this does not appear to be an ad, which is - at best - quoting from a review. Even if I am wrong, was I unreasonable to ask for more than 12 hours overnight between its first suggestion and agreeing to its insertion? Secondly, (on line 4 para 2, line starting 'rants), he says Pincrete 'keeps canvassing ', and he links to HIS lengthy characterisation of the event on the talk page, not to the 'crime' itself here:-[49], (or fuller picture here:-[50]), as for the word 'keeps', I ask UrbanVillager to supply a single other incidence of me making (what could be construed as) inappropriate contact with ANY editor.

I could say much more, the above is a record of only a few days, and not the two years with which I have been (on & off), involved with this page (and to a lesser extent its satellites), any slice of which reveals behaviour by UrbanVillager, which is - at best WP:Wikilawyering and - at worst, intolerable. I am mindful of the need to be brief, so I finish with a simple request, I ask that - as a minimum - UrbanVillager be banned from all Boris Malagurski pages for a period, which will give him the opportunity to prove that his commitment really is to the integrity of Wikipedia, and not to his 'chosen special subject'.Pincrete (talk) 22:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• A 'broader' point not made by Bobrayner, is that UrbanVillager also creates and contributes to 'Malagurski' pages on either 3 or 4 other Wikipedia sites, from memory, these include German, Greek and Serbian Wikipedia … I will supply proofs if wished.Pincrete (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller, I hope you don't mind, I've inserted my 'Statement' before your post below.Pincrete (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I took a look The Weight of Chains 2 (now at AfD) and noted it said that production was continuing into 2013. Turns out that was copyvio from [51] - a page archived 3 days before the article was created with the copyvio. Which led me to look at the creator's talk page - User talk:Kepkke which has number of copyvio warnings on it - editor also never seems to communicate, let alone deal with copyvio warnings. No comment at the moment on UrbanVillager. Dougweller (talk) 15:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked Kepkke - too much copyvio. Left him/her an explanation of what to do to get unblocked. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller, what you have spotted is only the 'tip of the iceberg' of copy vio. Almost the entire synopsis of Weight of Chains, is a copy/paste of various versions of the film's website, or press pack, any meaningful attempt to change it has been obstructed for over two years. We have been 'allowed' to correct the more grotesque errors of grammar or meaning (factions, not fractions, critique when criticim is intended, etc.). Little more.Pincrete (talk) 21:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Apart from the copyvio, I have long been concerned about the waves of sockpuppets and meatpuppets editing in this area. For instance, Bormalagurski = TheWriterOfArticles = WikiMB = KOCOBO = Bože pravde. UrbanVillager and Cinéma C both share the same hallmarks of sockpuppets - first edits are made very quickly, first turning their userpage into a bluelink, second turning their talkpage into a bluelink, and a minute later diving into a controversial article to revert somebody. Personally, I'm confident that Bolonium is meatpuppet rather than sockpuppet (although on ja.wiki Bolonium was blocked as a sock of Staka, who is in turn blocked on Commons). Joy set out this sequence of socks:

• Bormalagurski - September 2005 - September 2006
• Bože pravde - September 2006 - March 2009
• Cinéma C - March 2009 - September 2010
• UrbanVillager - September 2010 - today.

But regardless of that ancient history (checkuser would be stale), UrbanVillager's 4 years of promoting Boris Malagurski is a problem in its own right, when it involves article ownership, misuse of sources, edit warring, and so on. bobrayner (talk) 02:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that. If UrbanVillager would just chill out a bit, I don't think it would be such a problem. On the talk page, I saw Pincrete offer to compromise, and UrbanVillager flatly rejected it. I'd say, try an RFC to develop a stronger consensus on the talk page. In the event that someone disregards consensus, come back here and request a topic ban for the offending party. So far, it looks to me that it won't be Pincrete that we see brought here next time. As far as canvassing goes, I'd say that it's best to post an unbiased message on a relevant WikiProject, such as WT:FILM; this avoids the impression of canvassing. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

BobRayner's FINAL sentence above is the key one for me, 'regardless of ancient history … UrbanVillager's 4 years of promoting Boris Malagurski is a problem in its own right, when it involves article ownership, misuse of sources, edit warring, and so on' . While I understand Bob's frustrations, any evidence of 'puppetry' or COI, is almost inevitably going to be circumstantial (I have no opinion on the matter). However, evidence of abuse of guidelines, personal abuse, and abuse of procedure (of which this ANI case is just an example), is NOT circumstantial. Only yesterday - during a time that UrbanVillager is presenting himself here as the 'victim' - the following interchange took place :-[52]. … note, much of the content of The Weight of Chains 2, was deleted 13th Sept for copy vio, as were several paragraphs from The Weight of Chains main article, for the same reason,- ie almost 4 years after The Weight of Chains received its first copy vio warning here:-[53] Pincrete (talk) 11:48, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I remain utterly unconvinced that the account UrbanVillager is anything other than an egregious WP:SOCK/WP:MEAT violation, per evidence collected in 2012, but discarded on a number of technicalities. Even if others aren't convinced about all that WP:DUCK material, it still doesn't take a lot of effort to conclude that this account by itself is a single-purpose account that is not here to build an encyclopedia, but instead to engage in a shameless promotion of Boris Malagurski, which in turn is a slippery slope into advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle. The entire thing has been a humongous waste of time, and this iteration is no different. But thank you for reminding me that something needs to be done - I propose a topic ban for UrbanVillager on the subject of Boris Malagurski, broadly construed. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The 'comedy' continues … UrbanVillager, who says 'Pincrete keeps canvassing' , had the following interchange yesterday :-[54] (from, where UrbanVillager 'pings' Diannaa, 'Diannaa, would this be OK'). This is such an inept and overt action, by UrbanVillager's standards, that I am puzzled as to his motives. Pincrete (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Revert war at recreational drug use

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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WarriorLut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Signedzzz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Recreational drug use (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

3RR violations all around. Lack of discussion.

Signedzzz's editing pattern of hundreds of 0-5 byte edits, making the history harder to review, rubs me the wrong way, but I think my rubbing is exacerbated by my opinion on the issue. I'm a wiki contributor that never was; I feel out of my depth trying to moderate/fix this, especially because I have strong opinions and I'm not really sure I could set them aside to moderate. This strikes me as the kind of war that will get worse without intervention. Riffraffselbow (talk) (contribs) 12:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• It would be better handled at the Edit Warring Noticeboard. Epicgenius (talk) 13:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for participating in this revert war, I thought the other user was a bot since it was making so many hundreds of edits within just 2 weeks. WarriorLut (talk) 02:34, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

New editor...

• Wikicology (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm caught between WP:BITE and the trail of destruction this editor seems intent on leaving in their wake. Wikicology joined WP a little over 3 months ago and has since made about 1000 edits, 40% of which are to user talk pages where Wikicology likes to provide "expert" guidance and advice to new and established editors alike. I didn't come across them until their most questionable non-admin closure of this deletion discussion. But scanning through their edit history there are some other concerning things like:

• This series of edits to Deb's talk page.
• This equally strange advice to Northamerica1000.
• This doubling-down on WikiDan61's talk page.

I'm all for enthusiasm but attempting to function as a quasi-admin and getting it so consistently wrong is a recipe for disaster. I'm especially concerned about the idea of a non-admin with this sort of AFD track-record closing discussions (and if the currently-open AFD nominations are anything to go by, that record is progressing in the wrong direction). There's an obvious language barrier there (which makes me even less inclined to bring it here) but we're watching a bad situation get worse. St★lwart¹¹¹ 14:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There's also this on Bobrayner's talk and this on his own. But I've since seen he counts Kelapstick and RHaworth as mentors so in fairness I've pinged them too. St★lwart¹¹¹ 14:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Since I was pinged on this, I'll throw in my 2¢ worth. My take on Wikicology is that xe is unwilling to accept advice from more experienced editors, and has an unnecessarily belligerent attitude. The fact that xe is active in WP:NPP, and thus interacting with many newbies leads to lots of biting that, on balance, does more harm than good to the project. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• That was a spectacularly bad call in closing the AFD. I'll soon be reverting it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I have given him the benefit of the doubt for this [55] where an article was accepted from AFC in this current state. Admittedly now Wikicology and several others have helped clean up the article significantly, however I still don't feel it should ever have been moved into the mainspace so I took it to AFD. I think a gentle nudge to be more cautious is definitely in order. CaptRik (talk) 15:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I am particularly glad with Stalwart111 report here as this will significantly improve my edit behaviour. Let me start by correcting an impression of WikiDan61 that I don't take advice from experience editors, that's very untrue. Who else will I take an advice from if not an experienced editor? Deb is not a bot she is an admin. and I had made several comment on his talk pages. If she find it offensive, am sure deb would have taken a proactive measure to curb it, perharps report me here. It is true that I had an issue with Bobrayner (talk · contribs) but i tendered an unreserved apology to him and it was settled. I admit the fact that my comment seemed to be hostile at times and that's usually wit spammers because I found it odd to be polite with spammers. I had no intention to bite new editors. Sometimes I don't even see my comment as a bite. It is easy for Stalwart111 to point out my errors and I will take to correction. It will also be easy for others to point out his error because no one is a perfect editor. But sequel to the above allegation, am ready to takes to correction and it will not repeat itself.Wikicology (talk) 16:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Wikicology: Based on the above, and this advice from an editor, I think it might be best for you to refrain from giving advice to editors, even new editors, for a bit and take some time to observe how editors talk to each other here. Your communication style has been somewhat combative, even if you did not intend for it to be so, and even if you feel like your actions are correct. Speaking from my own experience, there is a lot to learn about Wikipedia even within the first year or two of doing so. It's best to accept that you will make mistakes because you are still learning (as am I, after editing for several years), and that trying to argue every time you are challenged is not going to be productive for you looking ahead. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 17:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't recall any particular interaction beyond this, and this shows as much, certainly not enough for me to consider myself a mentor. Thanks for the ping though Stalwart111. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 16:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• The edits here and here (noted above) are particularly worrying to me. Lesson 0 of any collaborative project is humility. We don't always know everything and we should all be willing to dial back accusations like those when countered rather than ratcheting them up. For Wikicology, here are some general pointers: When in doubt, don't template people or warn them unnecessarily. There's no need to warn editors that they might be blocked (either directly or via a euphemism) unless you're absolutely sure that A: they will be blocked for that behavior and B: that a warning will potentially deter them from said behavior. This avoids two problems. First, you don't end up biting a new editor and second you avoid having to decide whether or not you have to be "polite to spammers". If someone is spamming a link (especially multiple times) then just revert the edit. If you feel that a revert needs to be explained (and it often has to be), then leave a polite explanation noting the problems with the edit and how to correct them. Next, when someone who is not involved with a particular dispute (e.g. a revert or a comment you've left) raises an issue with your actions, your first step should be to stop and evaluate whether or not they could be correct. There's no prize for being right. You don't need to apologize or promise to correct the error every time someone comments but consider the possibility that they may have a point. Finally, while it is fun to patrol new pages and recent changes sometimes this isn't the best path for everyone. Consider just editing articles or participating in discussions for a while, you'll be amazed at how much perspective you get by merely stepping away from anti-vandalism tools for a while. Protonk (talk) 16:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I think one of the problems here is that Wikicology is new, and trying to fit in. In doing so, they are "borrowing" a lot of phraseology and style from those who they see as "role models", such as those folks they list as "mentors". For instance, many of the phrases used are ones which RHaworth commonly uses, and they are listed as a user Wikicology admires. English maybe not being a first language tends to compound this approach. Unfortunately, because they haven't been here as long as those other editors, or gained the experience and respect which those other editors have, they can tend to use those "borrowed" styles in a way that isn't really appropriate. This can then be miscontrued as "talking down" when I'm sure that's not the intention. I have absolutely no doubt that they mean very well indeed, and can make great contributions, in time, but it would, I think, be wise for them to wait until they have listened to, and actively sought, enough advice before being confident in offering so much. A mentor is someone who has agreed to that role, and to whom one should actively go for advice, rather than just copy. They can explain why they do what they do, and at what times it would, or would not, be appropriate for you to do the same, or how you might approach things differently. Begoon ^talk 17:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• From the depth of my heart, i thank all amiable contributors for the useful comments. I appreciates every criticism from Stalwart111. Sincerely I feel victimized by Stalwart111 report here. I see it as a deliberate intention to sabotage my efforts. Protonk, I only issued warning when an editor make an unconstructive edit such as adding unsourced content to BLP, obvious vandalism, test edit, habitual refusal to use the edit summary, unjustifiable remover of content etc. I think am right for doing that. However, I don't see anything controversial in the AfD discussion closure that leads to this report. It seemed controversial to Stalwart111 simply because he reacted to every comments that favours keep. From a NPOV, I don't think his reactions to the comments make the discussion controversial. When he discovered that the discussion was closed as keep, he wasn't satisfied simply because his vote was Delete and he decided to take the advantage of the fact that am not an admin. I think his report is not from a npov. He should have waited for a neutral experienced editor to challenge it, perhaps one of those whose vote reflect Keep or editor that never participated in the discussion. But I have no other choice than to assume good faith. Am pretty sure that this report will help my edit behavior to a very large extent, because I now knew where I got it wrong and I will surely mend my cloth where it torn. But I feel victimized with Stalwart111 report. I feel sad as I type! Wikicology (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology, my objection to your closure has nothing to do with the controversy of the topic (it's not controversial). I didn't "take advantage" of anything and my contribution to that discussion is irrelevant. I didn't challenge the result at WP:DRV, I challenged the closure and would have done so if you had closed as "delete" or (really) anything at all. You simply shouldn't be closing discussions. St★lwart¹¹¹ 21:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology, I'm not really convinced you appreciate the criticism because you don't seem to acknowledge the mistakes you have made (which is all that they are to me, mistakes, and they're not a big deal) and instead continue to make accusations about other editors (which is problematic). Maybe it's a language issue, but that's how I read your response. I think the suggestions that Begoon offers above is something you should strongly consider: ...it would, I think, be wise for them to wait until they have listened to, and actively sought, enough advice before being confident in offering so much. Please understand we're not trying to victimize you, but we are trying to lead you down a more productive path because it's clear you have potential and the energy to do good work here. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 19:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• One very trivial example of Wikicology not getting it, but no harm done either. This Tuesday I set out to create Dzanc Books and was met by a message that it had been previously created and deleted as so much corporate spam. I put off creation for one day, and followed the message's suggested advice, leaving a heads-up with the deleting admin, User:Deb. Wikicology left a pointless message, suggesting I use WP:AFC, apparently one of his pet projects. Choor monster (talk) 19:24, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• thank you I JethroBT and Begoon. I will learn from my mistake and I will make use of every useful advice. Thanks to you all.Wikicology (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe you will. Here's some more advice: Don't copy what other people say or do, word for word - develop your own style and way of doing things. If you're not sure what to do, ask someone you trust. In fact, even if you are sure, ask anyway - it can't hurt. If you don't have people to trust, find some by talking to them. There are lots of people who can help you. Take things slow. When you write a message to someone, preview it, and imagine how you would feel if someone had written it to you. Really imagine that - then write it again, better. You'll do fine. Start with basic things - even formatting, I just fixed all your indents here, for instance; see WP:INDENT. It's lots to learn, and it will take a lot of time. Begoon ^talk 20:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that spending too much time on the internet, and Wikipedia in particular, does strange things to you. For example, I just filled up Concetta the Corolla with petrol, and notice that the price was $AU 1.337. ZOMG! I thought, it's leet a litre. (Just thought I'd share that with everyone). Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 05:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Withdrawal of his Rollback Rights will make him a Better Wikipedian: My first encounter with Wikicology was when I voted that one of his article should be speedily deleted (as I frequently give my opinions on Nigeria related AFDs) His response was very fascinating to me because he carefully twisted Wikipedia policies against me. Although he apologized later but since I gave that vote, he continued to disrupt all my articles on Wikipedia. He went further to issue warnings to me on his talkpage.

I believe rollback rights should be reserved for experienced editors with very good track-record. I see no basis for giving him this right, at least until he gets a basic understanding on how the Wikipedia community works. Even though it might look like it, I am not saying all these because of the rift we had but out of my deep respect for privileged (special powers) users on Wiki and I just think him retaining the right is similar to giving a loaded AK47 to a newborn baby instead of allowing him to mature. Darreg (talk) 04:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that ANI is supposed to be where experienced editors contributes to discussion from a WP:NPOV to correct abnormalities based on facts and not on existing criticism. It is so sad that Darreg comment suggest a conflict of interest centered on the past clash we had, coupled with false accusation and allegations. Darreg had created over 50 articles here on wikipedia. He claimed that I disrupted all his articles. From his statement above ...he continued to disrupt all my articles on Wikipedia. I wonder how wikicology will disrupt over 50 articles (without being blocked long ago). I challenge Darreg to provide links, one-by-one to where I disrupt over 50 articles he created on wikipedia. In addition Rollback is an anti-vandal tool. I am glad to say that am an active patroller of both RC and NPP. Since he has comment on my rollback tool which is even out of point, I challenge Darreg again to provide links one-by-one to where I used my tool to make controversial changes or revert and where I used my tool to engaged in edit warring.I think Stalwart111 and other experienced editors will be interested in that. Having admitted the fact that my tone seemed to be hostile and accepted series of advices from different experienced editors, I expected Darreg to come up with useful and helpful comment rather than criticism based on false accusation and allegations. From a NPOV, I don't think this is expected from an editor who claimed a certain level of experienced.Wikicology (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• This is my first unpleasantry on Wiki. On or about 31 Aug 2014 User:Serten left a message in German on my user talk page (see: "Jetz aber"). I responded at Sertens user talk page in German (see: E CLAMPUS VITUS, usw).

Wickology placed a template "Speak english" on my user talk page and Sertens. I believed Wickiology was some sort of Wiki-functionary. I responded at my user talk page because I perceived Wickiologys user and talk pages to be unfriendly and contradictory. I never received a reply.

Wickiology then placed template "Not a forum" on my user talk page.

I presume Wickiology followed Serten to my user talk page. Prior to 31 August 2014 I never heard of either of them.

I feel Wickiologys actions are in poor form. I concede English is probably not Wickiologys primary language. After reading all this here, I have cause to surmise there is something behind Wickiologys editing other than presumptive ESL. I wish at this time to keep these opinions to myself, and never want hear from Wickiology again.

Help stop climate change here: [56] Tjlynnjr (talk) 19:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC) .

Tjlynnjr, the fact that you are getting it all wrong is now my headache. Perhaps you felt here is a ground for criticisms. Your basis for criticism is illegitimate because I was right for my action. There is nothing unfriendly on my talk page, maybe because I don't communicate in german or any other foreign language you love. On that memorable day, during my usual RC patrol, I found this on Serten talk page and this on Tjlynnjr talk page. Based on my understanding of policy and Per WP:SPEAKENGLISH I believed it was necessary for editors to communicate in english language on english wikipedia so that comments may be comprehensible to the community at large. To relief me of typing, I templated the both of them. Serten gave a compliment on his talk page. Tjlynnjr apologized that he was not familiar with wikipedia policy. Here is what he said..@Serten: @Wikicology: I apologise. I will also apologise to User:Serten at his page in case he was offended. I have been here at enWiki since March 2008; a fair time, but I am not technically skilled (in this HTML ? stuff, or what ever it is I am doing now) or well versed in Wiki protocol etc. I only discovered the "Ping User" feature a few days ago (August 2014). That is what he said to cut the history short. Serten responded with Wikicology is formal but friendly. Imma mir da Ruah (keep a stiff upper lip ;) Serten (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC). Am totally lost to see the same Tjlynnjr coming here to criticize again. What a life!!! Wikicology (talk) 22:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sorry for butting in here but I noticed that at much of Microbial growth monitoring techniques that this editor recently created appears to be copied almost word-for-word from this book, starting at "Monitoring microbial growth in culture". I'm still fairly new and I'm not sure what to do about copyright problems like this so I thought I could bring it up here. Thanks. --Ca2james (talk) 23:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for pointing this out, Ca2james. It is thanks to people like you that Wikipedia continues to exist, because Wikipedia does not (mostly) get copyright complaints or lawsuits. I have tagged the page in question for speedy deletion. I await an explanation from User:Wikicology. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Further, User:Wikicology, please could you explain why you think that this is your first unpleasantry on the English Wikipedia, when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taofeek Olakunle Ajiboye already occurred? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

It was not Wikicology experiencing their first unpleasantry on Wikipedia, but user:Tjlynnjr. The indentation used by Wikicology's for their reply to user:Tjlynnjr was insufficient. I changed it for clarity. - Takeaway (talk) 07:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Copyright issues is not a discussion for ANI. It can only be mention or reported here if an editor continues to violate the policy. If an article meet any of the criteria for speedy deletion (CSD), it should be tag appropriately and speedily deleted from wikipedia. Thank you so much Demiurge, I respect your ideology. I had decided to be quiet, as a result of blatant criticism and false accusation from certain editors whose comment is not from a NPOV. I can't ignore an editor like you. Regarding your question, that comment was not made by me. It was particularly made by Tjlynnjr above who felt that suggesting him to communicate in english language rather than german is unpleas. As for the AfD/Taofeek Olakunle Ajiboye, I don't have any problem with that because it was obvious that the article fails WP:GNG Thank you Demiurge. Wikicology (talk) 07:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm a bit worried about Wikicology's involvement with this AFC, having declined it as promotional and without sufficient establishment of notability. I don't see either of these issues when I read it myself and after a quick search on Google. - Takeaway (talk) 11:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Takeaway you need not to be worried sir. Am uncertain as to weather you had the opportunity to read the declined version. I want to let you know that the author of the draft has been improving it since on 13, August based on my advice. Infact he has also worked on it in the last few minutes today. I am sure that you only read the recent improved version as suggested by the link you provided above which actually pointed to the most recent improved version, contrary to the older version that was declined by wikicology here. In the older version, the first few lines claimed that the subject appears to be the first person to have obtain both MD and Ph.D in economics from university of pennsylvania, a claimed not supported by the references provided for verification. To save our time. As per the notability, the references you saw might appears much and sufficient to you but the majority of the references are primary sources which is insufficient to established notability. Article on BLP must be well-sourced with independent reliable sources. eventualism does not applies to BLP. In addition, if a submitted draft is decline, the essence of doing that is to improve it and the creator can resubmit it after improvement. If you saw some reliable sources on google as you had claimed, you can help the creator to simply adding it and am sure you will be thanked for doing that. Thank you for your comments. Wikicology (talk) 14:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I actually did read the declined version. As for primary sources, it is not that it is forbidden to use them per WP rules, it is just advised not to use them to prevent editors here on Wikipedia to engage in original research. As far as I could see, the primary sources used in the proposed article, were used only as proof for such simple statements as "Harris has published widely on smoking and health". The whole list of references after this statement is just a list of articles that Harris had written. In my opinion, knowing a bit about who Harris is, and how influential he has been for the formulation of laws regarding smoking, it was hardly necessary. The problem with a person such as Harris is that he is widely known in academic circles and with policy makers, just not with a wider public. As such, there are no easy-to-find quotable articles about his notability. I found that the article that you declined was sufficient for WP. It doesn't need to be perfect. I'm surprised that the editor hasn't given up. I've hardly seen an article where so much of the content is referenced. - Takeaway (talk) 14:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

SPECIFICO's WP:WIKIHOUNDING of Carolmooredc - Proposal of Two Way Interaction Ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Background: Previously, SPECIFICO and Carolmooredc clashed with one another in the Austrian economics topic space which led to community sanctions[57] and eventually an ArbCom case, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Austrian economics where both editors presented evidence against one another[58][59] and both were sanctioned by ArbCom.[60][61]

The ArbCom case should have ended this WP:BATTLEGROUND but it hasn't. SPECIFICO continues to WikiHound Carolmooredc. Here is the latest example. Carolmooredc has never edited our article on September 11 attacks until now.[62] SPECIFICO has never edited this article before until now.[63] Despite these two editors having never edited this article before, after Carolmooredc makes her first edit on 20:27, September 10, 2014, SPECIFICO show up hours later,12:13, September 11, 2014 to complain about Carolmooredc's edit and then subsequently reverts Carolmooredc's edit.18:13, September 11, 2014

The issue of SPECIFICO's WikiHounding of Carolmooredc was brought up before[64] also in a topic space completely unrelated to Austrian economics.

It's clear that this dispute has become personal. I don't think that we're quite up to the stage of requiring a site ban so I am proposing a two-way interaction ban between SPECIFICO and Carolmooredc. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support As proposer. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Support as second choice. There appears to be broad support for something to be done, although opinions differ whether it should be a one-way or two-way interaction ban, or a site ban. Since editors have proposed other solutions, I'm altering my !no vote to indicate order of preference. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - I think that if instead both of those two editors were topic-banned away from the Gender Gap Task Force, the maelstrom at that ArbCom-Case-Waiting-To-Happen would be lessened by about 63%. Carrite (talk) 14:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  The "kill everyone and let Allah sort them out" approach is always tempting. You could probably get rid of all women-hating trolls by just banning all women. —Neotarf (talk) 15:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Considering that neither the current proposed sanction nor the underlying dispute have anything to do with the GGTF (the dispute predates the task force by quite a bit, IIRC), could y'all kindly not hijack this thread into yet another GGTF thread? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Well, I'm not familiar with the previous interactions on the economics topics, all I have seen is the gender gap stuff. SPECIFICO agreed here to back off from it. —Neotarf (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. They've clashed on all kinds of different articles, so it's clear the problem is not a particular topic. Gamaliel (talk) 15:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support IBAN – I have observed the interaction between them for many months. It has been an ongoing and insidious disruption. – S. Rich (talk) 15:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - I provided analysis for the Austrian economics arbitration case and have kept tabs on subsequent disputes, so I'm very familiar with the background here. Also, back in May I provided analysis of a separate wikihounding claim between two other Aust econ parties, so I'm familiar with the fine points of that policy. AQFK has provided evidence here to meet most of the criteria for wikihounding, but there still remain a couple of points to show: (1) An "apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress, or out of revenge for a perceived slight" on the part of SPECIFICO; and (2) that SPECIFICO's actions did not constitute "fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles" "carefully, and with good cause" in order not to lead others to suspect ill motives. That said, this is my rather wikilegalistic take on the particular charge of wikihounding by SPECIFICO; but I have long been of the opinion that a two-way interaction ban between these two (and certain other pairs of Aust econ parties, but that's outside the present scope) would prevent a lot of unproductive conflict going forward, based on their apparent mutual distrust. alanyst 15:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment My understanding is the gender gap wikiproject was pretty much a dead end project until Carolmooredc revived it. How would an interaction ban effect this project? —Neotarf (talk) 15:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  I don't see how it would affect it at all; they don't seem to have anything to do with each other. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 16:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Site ban for SPECIFICO due to overt hounding and harassment of Carolmooredc and others. SPECIFICO is almost surely a ban evaded and has been engaged in egregious POV pushing and partisan slugfests since his inception. His harassment and stalking is the last straw.--MONGO 16:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:Wikihounding means he has been following me around per WP:Wikihounding in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. I did my best to ignore him for the last few months, but when he started Wikihounding me at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force ("GGTF"), responding (usually critically or worse) to just about everything I wrote there, I had to respond at least some percent of the time. This is not a solution to SPECIFICO Wikihounding me. He'll just keep it up, disrupting any article or project I work on, just within the "letter of the law", without reverting my specific edits or replying to me, just making sure he's everyplace I am. It can definitely upset one's balance.

I have to run out in 10 minutes to a doctors appointment, so forgive obvious errors. Also leaving a couple placeholders for new information, but will just repeat what I wrote last week regarding this issue:

• SPECIFICO has been obsessively harassing/wikihounding me for over a year regarding various political differences: posting on my talk page, following me to articles, reverting me and/or negatively commenting on my edits or talk page comments. See these earlier complaints my warning 6/23/13; my 6/29/13 ANI; my complaint to an admin 10/31/13; SPECIFICO's 11/31/13 block for "interpersonal behavior" against me another editor filed at TPNO ANI; my warning on harassment 1/14/14; my later complaint to admin 1/14/14. See also an uninvolved editor's comment regarding SPECIFICO's harassment of me.
• Repeated violation of my talk page ban (except for official notifications): [Placeholder entered:My 6/21/13 first ban which was not explicit enough for people new to the problems, but in context of past discussions, quite obvious, my July 31st reference to the ban here, ], October 31 2013 thread where he denied it and I couldn't find that link, I have had to remind him of the banning and/or complain about continued harassment at my talk page on these dates: Oct 31, Nov 11, Nov 22, Nov 24, Dec 19, Dec 29, Jan 10, June 30, 9/4, 9/4.
• I have tried to ignore the many more recent incidents; see just April 1-September 3, 2014 Interaction Analyzers Results with examples of his following me to 20 articles or pages he had not edited before and harassing me, sometimes repeatedly.
• Examples of constant and disruptive harassment at GGTF, which also disrupts the project: His first at GGTF supports a visiting editor's criticisms of me based on past disputes; here he criticizes an editor objecting to the two of them airing "grudges" against me; a put down of GGTF; hectoring demands not made of an editor who made similar general statements; dubious accusations of sexism in discussions of women at GGTF.
• On SPECIFICO's talk page last week an editor noted that that last GGTF edit was problematic. An admin asks SPECIFICO to cut me some slack, later to keep the page friendly, and later asks him to "staying away from Carol's posts". He writes "consider me on hiatus". But two days later the first editor again has to comment on new negative SPECIFICO comments at GGTF. And on Sept 3. SPECIFCO hectors me about an obvious joke about recruiting admins and writes "please consider departing the Project".
• He has continued harassing me on and off GGTF, even after the Disruption of Wikiproject ANI warning to all posters on GGTF: [Placeholder entered: Just a few examples over last few days of his relentlessly criticizing my comments re: Gender Gap task force: [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70]. Besides reverting my edits on September 11 - which created this long missing section September_11_attacks#Congressional_inquiry - he went back to the main article and reverted material that I only needed a note for better sources, which I'd already stated on the talk page I was looking for. See last couple edits of Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community Activities before and after the Terrorist Attacks of September 11, 2001 at this diff. Or see his recent removals.

Possible Solutions:

• Ban SPECIFICO from following me to any article he has not edited before and ban him from the Gender Gap task force and Gender bias on Wikipedia article which covers the same issues. He followed me to both to harass me, the second just four minutes after I edited there.
• Do as [[User:MONGO mentioned at this diff: But in regards to AQFK opening post here, it is obvious that you stalked Carol Moore to that page and this is apparently far from the first time you have followed her to a page. That's blatant harrassment and is a good way to get an indefinite block.

Please show that this kind of intense and ongoing Wikihounding can and will be stopped. Thank you. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm leaning toward a site ban for SPECIFICO. As carolmoore points out, there are too many ways to circumvent an interaction ban, and in this case, I can only see it leading to further drama. It is always unfortunate to lose a knowledgeable user, but we can't tolerate this sort of behavior. Gigs (talk) 16:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Neutral - The basic issue is that SPECIFICO is indeed hounding Carolmooredc. It isn't clear that any harm will be done by imposing a two-way interaction ban, but I see no evidence that Carol is in the wrong. When I filed the (still hanging) Request for Arbitration concerning the Gender Gap Task Force (and I am not sure that I was right in filing it), I thought that two editors should be topic-banned from the GGTF, and that SPECIFICO and Carolmooredc should be IBAN'd. However, as per MONGO's analysis, the toxic interaction is one-way. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, per below, as a 1-way ban on Specifico is what is needed here. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, The hounder should get the ban, not the houndee. That's how it should always work. It's basically a restraining order, and you don't restrain the victim of abuse... you restrain the abuser. Lightbreather (talk) 17:40, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment As always with Carolmooredc, I'd advise everyone to treat the diffs that she supplies with caution. She usually tendentiously brings up the same stuff, often just lists of previous failed reports and often does so out of context. Then she pleads naivety. Some of these issues arose as recently as the last report here involving the GGTF and her.

As far as SPECIFICO goes, there may be some following-around going on. I'm not convinced that is necessarily a bad thing because, on quite a lot of occasions when I've bothered looking, it has served to control CMDC's more wayward tendencies. If CMDC inserts herself in touchy subjects (and those are indeed the only subjects where she edits) then she should be well aware by now that she is going to attract attention, face vocal opposition etc. Since CMDC is only interested in touchy subjects, it is entirely plausible that SPECIFICO shares the same trait. I might have to start following her around more often myself if these proposals go through because someone has to keep an eye on her. I'm worried here that there might be a pile-on from those involved or interested in the gender gaps issues who dislike criticism. - Sitush (talk) 17:47, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Is this a joke? In a discussion about an editor stalking and hounding another editor, we actually have someone standing up and saying "well, I think I'm gonna stalk and hound her, too!". Way to keep that Gender Gap in the 80/20 range, Sitush. Tarc (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No, Tarc. It's just you not being able to read English again. - Sitush (talk) 17:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

"I might have to start following her around more often myself if these proposals go through because someone has to keep an eye on her." - Maybe someday you'll figure out that you really can't lie about something you just said 10 minutes ago. Tarc (talk) 18:43, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The operative word was "might", Tarc, not "I think I'm gonna". Let's face it, you either can't comprehend English or you are a drama-monger who likes misrepresenting people. Take your pick but either way, drop the "liar" bullshit. - {{unsigned|Sitush}

Adding a qualifier of "might" doesn't make a threat to harass any less intimidating. Tarc (talk) 19:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Twisting the words of others to suit your own purposes seems to have become a pattern with you Tarc. Eric Corbett 19:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Backpedalling madly, now, I see. FWIW, Carolmooredc is not easily intimidated, as should be obvious from her website that she one linked to via her userpage and from the subject areas that she chooses to edit on Wikipedia. What she is good at is using her gender to further her ends, hence all the whimsical "sighs", "little old me's" etc that she sticks on the end of her whinges. - Sitush (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Um, rejecting your claim that the word "might" makes your stalking threat less egregious has nothing to do with "backpedalling", I'm afraid. Whether your threat was an empty one or a serious one, the end result is the same. That's about all there it to this tangent; choose your words carefully in the future, or better yet, stay away from this topic altogether and avoid these repeated foot-in-mouth moments. Tarc (talk) 20:05, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

So, not content with calling me a liar, you seem now to be suggesting I'm a misogynist. Is there any reason why I should restrain myself from saying "shut the fuck up"? As I expected, this is turning into a GGTF pile-on. - Sitush (talk) 20:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose two-way ban. Support one-way per below. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support two way ban and only two way ban.--v/r - TP 19:12, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - don't punish the victim. Prefer one-way or site ban. -- Netoholic @ 19:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: As can be seen at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force, Carolmooredc is one of the most active and productive participants at the gender gap task force. Whatever the result of this discussion, I very much hope Carolmooredc can continue to participate at the task force. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Active, yes. Productive? That is in the eye of the beholder. As SPECIFICO has shown, she is quite often just plain deluded or, to AGF, terribly mistaken. There is a valid argument for checks and balances at GGTF and, I think, that has been demonstrated in the still-open ArbCom case. - Sitush (talk) 00:18, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

There is only a request at ArbCom --Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Gender_Gap_Task_Force_Issues- which has been declined by all Arbitrators so far. There opinion is that dispute resolution, including WP:ANI, should deal with these problems. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie)

Indeed it is only a request, and my apologies for mistyping that. I'm not sure that all arbs declined but, hey. The procedural minutiae aside, the problem remains the same. You're an opinionated "right-on" rabble-rouser, Carol, and I do wish I could demonstrate it here without outing you. Selectively posting a notice about this ANI report is itself an example, I guess, but then rabble-rousers often are very good at manipulation. If you spent more time away from these contentious issues and still got "hounded" etc then I'd have more sympathy. - Sitush (talk) 01:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. They clearly don't like each other. While SPECIFICO is following her, which would annoy the crap out of me, a one way ban would only encourage Carol's disruptive tendency to stir the pot by attacking an editor who cannot respond. Carol is not without fault here, not by a damn sight. A ban is totally ridiculous as demonstrated by the "oppose" votes below. If we made this thunderdome, and one of them had to be banned, based upon my limited experience with both I would choose Carol. She appears to be the more disruptive force of the two. The friction between these two is causing the fire and smoking the rest of us out. Separate these two combustibles and let's see if they become inert.Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 03:30, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support, it's quite clear that the conflict between these two editors is not going to cool down by itself, is not going to lead to any positive outcome, and is going to continue to waste the time of the community if allowed to continue. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:43, 14 September 2014 (UTC).

One-Way Interaction Ban

• Support one-way interaction between on User:SPECIFICO from all interaction with User:Carolmooredc. One-way interaction bans are difficult to enforce, but the alternative, as Gigs has proposed, is a site ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support If Carol has displayed any incivility here, it has come in self-defense against an aggressive and persistent stalker, and is thus quite excusable. Tarc (talk) 17:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support: The post initiating this thread only supports a one-way ban. And from what I've seen in the past week getting acquainted with the history and the Gender Gap Task Force drama, that's what is sorely needed. Keep an eye on Carol, but I think the one way ban is going to end our problem.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 17:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support For the reason I gave for opposing a two-way ban. Lightbreather (talk) 17:40, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support in line with Robert McClenon & Milowent--Cailil ^talk 18:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  I still support this but prefer site ban below--Cailil ^talk 19:58, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support, clearly needed. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support per behavior on GGTF as the interactions are one-way, so too should be the ban. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Carol has been her own worst enemy, and the interactions are by no means one way. Eric Corbett 18:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Two way or no way. I've supported one way bans in the past, but I don't think it'd be effective here.--v/r - TP 18:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I've never seen a one-way ban work well. - Sitush (talk) 19:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Of course not. Because if they are working, by nature, you won't see them.--v/r - TP 19:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Not quite. I've seen instances where the non-banned party was able to game the system because of a one-way ban. I'm sure this has been discussed right up at ArbCom level, perhaps in the Doncram case? - Sitush (talk) 19:14, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
      • That's my point. You will see the one's that don't work like you've described. But the one's that do you - you will never see because they are working. So you won't see a one way interaction ban work. You'll only ever see it not work.--v/r - TP 19:16, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
        • Ah, sorry. I understand you now. So, rephrasing my oppose: every one-way IBAN I've seen seemed to go wrong. I'll have to dig around for examples. - Sitush (talk) 19:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Then do you suggest a site ban instead? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
            • Eh? I oppose a one-way IBAN. What has that got to do with what I think about site bans or two-way bans or, indeed, whether the moon is a balloon? - Sitush (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
              • You oppose one-way bans because you consider them ineffectual. The more effectual solution would be a site ban. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
                • Perhaps. That is your opinion. It is not necessarily mine. Unlike a lot of people involved in this, I'm not jumping to conclusions. I have a fairly long-term experience of both Carolmooredc and SPECIFICO and I need to think rather than throw in a knee-jerk reaction. I'm really, really concerned here that this is turning into a GGTF circus where CMDC is the star performer. That, for sure, would be an inappropriate approach. Do some research on her. - Sitush (talk) 00:13, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
                  • I've had some extended interactions with Carol, especially over the term "TERF" and radical feminism. We do not see eye to eye for sure. But I've at least found her mostly reasonable to work with. I've searched her name a few times but didn't come up with much. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:07, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support But prefer site ban below. -- Netoholic @ 19:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support I do not generally agree with these, but in this case it is clearly a one-way issue. Unless someone presents evidence of Carol hounding Specifico's edits this is what I support. A site ban may be in SPECIFICO's future if he does not generally adjust his behavior, however.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose SPECIFICO did well to completely and rationally debunk some of suspicious essays posted at the gender gap project by Carolmooredc. Certainly possible issues aren't purely one-sided. --Pudeo' 20:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Can you provide diffs? Knowing exactly what debunking took place would help. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 20:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I was referring to this thread specifically. Basically some of the "gender gap stories" were found to be completely bogus, like one "victim" had actually tried to change the content of an article about an album to something else. That archive is full of mutual quarrel between SPECIFICO and Carolmooredc. All I'm saying is that it was good that Two kinds of Pork and SPECIFICO kept an eye on what was posted in that project by Carolmooredc.--Pudeo' 23:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

So no evidence of hounding by Carol? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No. --Pudeo' 00:11, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

"Possible issues" aren't one-sided? What does that mean? This discussion isn't about about who was more successful in "debunking" the other's claims. We're talking about who is hounding whose edits. Can you present evidence of Carol following Specifico around? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

"Following someone around" is not synonomyous with "hounding", as you ought to know. There are quite a few editors who follow me around, but I don't regard that as hounding. Eric Corbett 21:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. No evidence has been presented that Carol is hounding Specifico. It looks like she wants to disengage from the interactions with Specifico but can't do it because Specifico keeps initiating contact. In the unlikely case that Carol starts hounding or baiting Specifico, the interaction should be extended to her as well. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support per the evidence of harassment towards Carolmooredc, I also notice that the majority of those opposing have been involved editors. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  By "involved", do you mean those whom Carolmooredc has in the past attacked for various imagined misdemeanours? I'd be interested to see what your definition of "uninvolved" is when it comes to those supporting this proposal. Eric Corbett 21:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Involved meaning not bringing up things that were discussed in the past that had already come to a conclusion. What is key here is what has happened since. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Then your accusation of "involved" does not stand up to scrutiny, and I invite you to withdraw it. Eric Corbett 21:32, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  That definition actually scuppers almost every diff that CMDC ever brings here. Oh, and I would have thought that this, which is typical of CMDC's subtle canvassing, explains a lot of the pile-on here. Sure, it's phrased neutrally but, as in the past, it stinks. - Sitush (talk) 21:35, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Quite. It's entirely biased and dishonest. Eric Corbett 21:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. After the topic bans in the Austrian economics case there shouldn't any natural reasons for a substansial overlap in page editing between Specifico and Carol. The reason they still end up at the same talk pages where quarrels sometimes ensue is because Specifico is following Carol around. Specifico's speciality is economics and an interaction ban with Carol won't hinder him in editing those articles. Iselilja (talk) 20:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I might be able to support a one way ban, but I fear Carol would treat this sanction as yet another tool in her arsenal to gain the upper hand in disputes. Remember, it's more than just these two that has to put up with their infighting. If Carol were to abuse the 1 way ban, it will, certainly cause some resentment.Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 04:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Carol is a minimum of 50.0% of the problem here. Carrite (talk) 08:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Actually, if he's been stalking her, and told not to, and still stalks her, really, he should be told to go. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:54, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support As third choice. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Site ban of SPECIFICO for repeated hounding

Evidence of SPECIFICO hounding

Hounding of Netoholic

• May 15 "tag notability" - Tags an article I added a category to the previous night. He's never edited it before.
• May 24 "ce. Conform to cited reference" - He makes an edit on a page I just edited about 20 minutes earlier. He's never edited it before.
• May 26 "Stefan Molyneux edit warring: new section" - He goes shopping around for an admin to block me for "edit warring". His complaint was logged 2014-05-26T03:45:20, 7 hours after my last edit at 2014-05-25T20:38:35‎, which was 21 hours after the last edit by anyone else at 2014-05-24T23:40:10‎.
• May 30 - After I made an observation on my sandbox page that SPECIFICO doesn't add new sources, his very next edit (20 minutes later) is to add a citation to an article. This proves that he is monitoring my every edit.
• May 30 - A completely bogus warning accusing me of "4RR" which is completely off-base. Clear WP:HUSH violation.
• June 6 "Removing unsourced content. There is no general agreement as to all the figures depicted in the painting" - My "content" was an image of a painting, with a link and description directly taken from The School of Athens. This revert was done within just 4 minutes, and over 4 hours after SPECIFICOs last edit. The version he went back to is zoomed in detail from the same painting of a figure that has no expert confirmation of, per the article footnote "The interpretation of this figure as Hypatia seems to have originated from the Internet. Serious sources don't mention it at all. H. J. Mozans (=John Augustine Zahm) specifically regrets that Hypatia doesn't appear in the painting in his book Women in Science p. 141".
  • Immediately after I post the above item to my sandbox page describing his error[71], he revisits the page and removes his mistake.
• June 6 "Remove off-topic definition of EMIS. The topic of this article is environmental management, not environmental information management. This article relates to the physical management of the physical environment." - Removes a sourced and relevant item I added to an obscure page. He's never edited it before.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Netoholic (talk • contribs)

Hounding of Srich32977

(To try and keep the section short, I am only citing what I've found to be the most gross examples of SPECIFICO hounding Srich32977's activity on Wikipedia. There are others with longer time gaps (like [72]), and some less straightforward ones. -- Netoholic @ 03:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC))

• May 2 - 7 minutes after Srich32977 uses {{rpa}}, SPECIFICO reverts it (SPECIFICO has never edited that article or talk page before)
• June 29 - 3.5 hours after Srich32977 edits an article [73], SPECIFICO edits the page also [74][75] (neither had ever edited it before)
• June 29 - 3 hours after Srich32977 makes a post on a talk page, SPECIFICO replies to Srich. (SPECIFICO has never edited that article or talk page before)
• June 29 - 24 minutes after Srich32977 makes an edit, SPECIFICO does too (neither had ever edited it before)

• Comment – let me make this clear, I do not consider any of these (or such other) edits involving me as hounding. Specifico may sit on his High Horse and dispense bullshit about me, but I've never felt harassed. (I can and have refuted each aspersion set forth.) Also, I am disappointed that Netoholic has added this sub-section. A site ban for Specifico is certainly not in the offing. – S. Rich (talk) 03:52, 13 September 2014 (UTC) 04:19, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Further comment by S. Rich. Having taken a closer look at these diffs, I can see that they offer no support for this allegation of hounding. Two diffs are legitimate article improvements that did not revert my edits. One is a legitimate, albeit misinformed talk page comment. The first diff is Specifico not having liked the {{rpa}} template I added, but so what? Specifico had not edited on that page before, but he was supporting his friend Steeletrap. In next edit I removed the whole messy interchange. – S. Rich (talk) 17:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Hounding of other editors
Per above section, I believe SRich and SPECIFICO enjoy going at it on talk pages; and 4 reverts are only minor compared to my dozens of diffs of his harassing me above. I don't even have the energy to document all the hassling he's given other editors on articles and talk pages. To note a few:

• They are discussed in these 2013 ANIs 1, 2, 3.
• Two editors got so pissed off they were uncivil and/or 3rr'd were sanctioned: User_talk:Xerographica/Archive_5#March_2013 Site banned and User_talk:Byelf2007#Topic_ban_from_economics Topic banned.
• User:Sageo took a long break after SPECIFICO templated the heck out of his talk page on often dubious grounds (templates still User talk:Sageo).
• User:Id4abel was quite frustrated by SPECIFICO's "disruptive editing"[76] and encouraged Sageo to join my ANI against SPECIFICO for disruptive talk page templating.[77]. Id4abel quit editing weeks later.
• In response to this 2013 SPECIFICO comment about my taking a vacation from editing (because of my frustration with SPECIFICO's disruptive editing), at this diff User:Liz wrote to him: It's mind-boggling that you seem to think that an Editor who is burned out from constant arguing and so just quits the discussion is a good result. The goal is not to drive away those who believe differently from yourself or "wear them down". When Wikipedia content is determined by the "last Editor standing" mentality, it's really a sign that there is something wrong with the project.
  

I don't know why no one has proposed at the very least a SPECIFICO topic ban on his editing the Gender Gap task force pages since it is clear his original and ongoing motivation is more about hassling me than contributing to the project. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:52, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Lovely, Carol. As is your wont, you've added yet another bolded pseudo-heading to grab attention and you've used a drama-inducing edit summary. There are plenty of reasons why people hassle you, the most obvious of which is that you are you and will inevitably attract attention. That's why I suggested that you and SPECIFICO should both try to work in less contentious areas and it is why I suggested below that perhaps one way to introduce that would be a six-month ban for both of you from all areas where discretionary or general sanctions apply. - Sitush (talk) 17:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Discussion of site ban proposal for SPECIFICO

• Support - Since this was suggested multiple times above, adding it as a voting section. Carolmooredc is not the only victim of SPECIFICO's hounding. I believe SPECIFICO does not have the self-control to avoid stalking the edits of *anyone*. Its become standard battleground tactic for him. -- Netoholic @ 19:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - One-way interaction bans rarely work. A straightforward block or ban is preferable. PhilKnight (talk) 19:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Question. Who are you proposing to site ban? I'd support some kind of ban placed on Carol, following which I'm certain you'd see a much calmer atmosphere at GGTF. Eric Corbett 19:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment – Seems that Netoholic is proposing to site ban SPECIFICO. Considering that the diffs pertain to CMDC and Netoholic, shouldn't Dispute Resolution or WP:RFC/USER be undertaken? With this in mind, I oppose. – S. Rich (talk) 20:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I was gathering evidence to that end, but seeing as a site ban was proposed above, and its clear his stalking behavior extends to other people (including you, Srich), I think it can be addressed swiftly here. The stalking behavior is clearly a pattern. Since he's stalekd you too, would you prefer to add evidence here or would you to join me in an RFC, since you're a victim of it as well? -- Netoholic @ 20:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support As per my earlier comment. There is no doubt that SPECIFICO has been stalking and harassing Carolmooredc and now as evidence clearly shows, others. This deliberate effort to engage others is battleground behavior and to be frank, very creepy. SPECIFICO can ask for reassessment in no less than six months.--MONGO 20:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support The evidence is there, nobody should have to put up with this kind of harassment here on Wikipedia. No evidence of wiki-hounding by Carol has been put forward per the above section. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Not yet, but it would be rather easy to collect given the number of AN/I threads, ArbCom requests and canvassing on user talk pages that Carol either initiates or involves herself in against the same few people. She is the problem, not SPECIFICO. Eric Corbett 21:05, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Do you have diffs of new things? Recently a discussion closed here without finding that Carol had done any wrongdoing. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:08, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Assuming that you can count, have a look for yourself as Carol would say, don't expect me to spoon feed you. Eric Corbett 21:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

In other words you don't have any evidence. --NellieBly (talk) 01:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - AFAIK, SPECIFICO hasn't engaged in sock-puppetry, vandalism or making threats. Those are my yard sticks for banishable behaviour. GoodDay (talk) 21:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - There are other reasons, in my opinion and that of many editors, to ban editors, such as trolling, flaming, and incompetence. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:44, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban. The nuclear option is regrettable, but the wikihounding seems to be a pattern (rather than two editors who just can't get along, which is what IBAN is for). Miniapolis 22:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Does not appear to be warranted. Any concerns can easily be addressed with an interaction ban. Gamaliel (talk) 22:54, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Confused Comment Sorry for my failure to keep up with Wikipedia policy/procedures (as I've taken periodic extended breaks). But, when did a full fledged indefinite site ban become a matter for a public vote exactly (with people involved in assorted edit disputes voting)? I thought this kind of thing was handled by arbitration. I thought this page was for more straightforward and/or shorter term things; not something that requires a fuller and more comprehensive discussion and consideration. --Rob (talk) 23:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Sitebans are not restricted to arbcom, community approved sanctions and site bans have happened but not every opinion is regarded with the same weight based on factors involved. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose the diffs brought up by Netoholic are all over three months old. They are also not super bad , although they may indicate a continuing disagreements between Netoholic and Specifico. Evidence ofsuchdisagreements can also be seen at Specfico's talk page. In this context, I notice that, on May 21, 2014, Netoholic was blocked for "personal attacks or harassment" at Specfico's talk page. Regardless, bad blood with Netoholic is not a reason to site ban Specifico. Cardamon (talk) 02:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. He made his bed, now let him lie in it. This is a hostile environment for women editors because of conduct such as this. --Drmargi (talk) 02:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per underwhelming evidence, and a clear grudge. I like to see proposals from uninvolved editors per my essay on the subject.--v/r - TP 03:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
  • As a victim of his hounding behavior, I can't say that I am impartial, but that doesn't mean its a grudge - I just want him to stop using this tactic against people he has disagreements with. I added a section of examples of his hounding of Srich32977, and I think there are other examples of hounding of other users like Binksternet, VictorD7, Reissgo, and perhaps others that can be found by someone impartial who wants to evaluate SPECIFICO's edit history. -- Netoholic @ 03:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
  • @TParis: like I said something has to give, the aura over at the gender gap task force is toxic, I hold no grudges here as well, I am not even involved with the project but based on what I have seen and discussions that were already held nobody should have to put up with being wiki-hounded. It is easy to say otherwise when you are not the victim of it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Feel free to change the aura. But this is not a desirable outcome per my essay. Doesn't meet the "least amount of sanctions" nor "NPOV" criteria. I prefer a two-way interaction ban. It is functionally no different then a one-way interaction ban and the only reason to oppose it, if you support a one-way ban, is for idealistic nonsense. The desirable outcome with the least amount of sanctions is a two-way ban.--v/r - TP 03:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
  • @TParis: I am uninvolved and am not well versed on the history. However, this dispute has obviously been through many versions of dispute resolution including arbcom. The fact that it is still ongoing seems to meet your criteria for being at this board. It's obvious that the dispute is disruptive to the project. The next question is resolution that is the most beneficial to the project. A two-way IBAN appeals to a sense of egality but egality is not what we are trying to accomplish. Does a two-way IBAN improve the project or does it disproportionately burden the least disruptive editor? Your support of a two-way IBAN did not address this. A one-way IBAN imposed on the most disruptive editor is more in line with improving the project. Given the history though, why has this not been voluntarily done? If it's clear that one editor is following even an informal one-way IBAN and the disruptive editor has not, I question the abilitiy of that editor to be constructive. If it's the same type of behaviour being directed at multiple editors even after arbcom, an indefinite timeout is possibly needed. In short, my evaluation of your criteria is that a two-way IBAN is unnecessarily burdensome. A one-way IBAN of SPECIFICO possibly with multiple editors or topics is the least disruptive sanction that allows all editors to continue contributing. An indefinite ban is justifiable if, on balance, the conflict arising from SPECIFICO's presence outweighs the benefit and that would be the case if a majority of edits, even across many topics, create conflict with specific editors. --DHeyward (talk) 05:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Neutral - Something has to be done, but I would prefer a one-way interaction ban. The other examples cited are stale. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

  Proposals from uninvolved editors, TParis? Ha. I tried that, but as soon as you propose something they tell you that makes you "involved". This should have been a topic ban. The reason we are back here now is that the original topic ban discussion was closed before the vote could finish.

  Carol is banned from economics issues, right? And that's where SPECIFICO usually edits. And SPECIFICO is not very good with gender issues, a quick look at his talk page can tell you several people have tried to coach him there, and to no effect. If he does not buy into the basic premise of welcoming new women to the project, why is he participating in gender gap in the first place. No, there should have been a topic ban. But that proposal failed, so we are left with interaction ban, or site ban. —Neotarf (talk) 04:16, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@Robert. Yes, something should be done, but to be blunt Carol has not shown the temperament necessary to be awarded the ability to comment on SPECIFICO knowing she is immune to his response.Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 04:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Clarification: Both Specifico and Carol are banned from editing on Mises.org-related topics. Carol (I believe) is banned from Austrian School economics topics, but Specifico is not. As you say, Neotarf, an IBAN would be helpful. I think as a matter of equity it should be mutual. Carol has not shown much inclination to follow Specifico, so it would not matter to Carol if it was two-way IBAN. So once Carol edits on a gender-related issue, an IBAN would mean that Specifico would simply have to let other editors respond to her. Then, without so much as a hint that he was responding to Carol's comment, he could respond to the other editor with circumspect. – S. Rich (talk) 04:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

An I-ban would probably be a good idea, and would give Carol and maybe some other editors a little piece of mind, but unless you do something about the gender gap project as well, it's all going to come right back here again. Look at the gender gap talk page now. It's a mess, SPECIFICO has been all over it, along with a few other individuals, and the reasonable people are no where to be seen. —Neotarf (talk) 05:01, 13 September 2014 (UTC)f

• Oppose - Interaction ban them if you wanna. Otherwise, take it to ArbCom, not LynchCom. When the smoke clears there will be indefs levied on leading GenderWarriors from both sides of the aisle. Carrite (talk) 08:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I'm not convinced about an interaction ban either but the arguments of TParis and Carrite against a site ban are convincing enough and Netoholics diffs (including those for Srich) are not at all so. A six-month topic ban of both from editing in any subject area where discretionary or general sanctions apply would, I think, be my preferred approach. Let them learn that Wikipedia is more than just some rolling battlefield. - Sitush (talk) 09:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support SPECIFICO's modus operandi with regard his dealing with me, is to revert my edits but then refuse to take part in discussion on talk pages. So B.R.D. becomes B then R, then I start discussion, then silence. If I repeat the Bold edit he reverts immediately with no further talk. This then puts me at risk of being accused of edit warring. I have seen many other editors complain to him about a lack of communication with his reverts. This has been going on for years. He does not operate within the spirit of Wikipedia. Reissgo (talk) 10:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Really. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:56, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support as first choice. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:40, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. Two canvassed witch hunts on AN/I at the same time? How unpleasant. —Xezbeth (talk) 14:54, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: I made just one notice, to the Gender gap task force talk page, where several editors had noted disruption of the task force, including explicitly by SPECIFICO. See links above. If he had not so relentlessly hounded me at the task force, disrupting it, his Wikihounding would not be so obvious. So this is at least in part an issue pertinent to the project. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Notifications to Wikiprojects are considered to be appropriate. —Neotarf (talk) 01:57, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Without a limited-time site ban, SPECIFICO will continue to disrupt the project. Tom Harrison ^Talk 17:19, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Support I'm sorry, but when I go to a persons talk page and see that they've been brought here time after time after time after time - it shows that a person may be more of a net negative than a net positive, and that's not what we're about. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 00:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oh, whoopee. Have you ever seen my talk page? Have you ever seen Carolmooredc's? Yours is a ridiculous rationale, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 00:31, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Strong Oppose When I think of a site ban, I think of editors who have doxed others, harassed them in real life, sent threats to them, is incorrigibly disruptive, cannot be remedied and all other remedies have failed. That their editing style is irrepearable and the only thing that would them listen is to wait 6 months for the standard offer. I don't believe SPECIFICO has passed that point here. Other remedies have not been trialed as of yet, and they should. Site banning is a very last resort and should be reserved for those who's conduct and history cannot be repaired and have resisted/skirted any kind of remedy. Tutelary (talk) 01:50, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support When I think of a site ban, I think of editors who have stalked and harassed another editor to the point that the community can no longer ignore it. I only wish the community, myself included, picked up on this a year ago. Tarc (talk) 12:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

RFC/U

Sorry for having to split this out into another section. Is there any mileage in starting a RfC/U for this? Maybe one for both Carolmooredc and SPECIFICO, together or separately? It does seem to me that there has been a bit of a pile-on here: they are people turning up whom I wouldn't normally expect to be watching ANI and, however neutral it was, probably got here via CMDC's notification at WT:GGTF. I've had run-ins with both parties over the last year and both have had their "good" and "bad" points ... and I'm probably persona non grata to both most of the time. I understand that RfC/U is often considered to be a toothless process but what is going on right now is very scary. As someone said above, it seems to be practically rule by lynch-mob. - Sitush (talk) 01:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This is probably a bad idea to have five processes running at the same time. It's also one that could backfire on you. You've been pounding away at CMDC quite a bit here, even going so far as threatening to out her off-wiki. You obviously feel very strongly here, but you've crossed some serious boundaries because of it.__ E L A Q U E A T E 01:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Basically it's probably better to close all of these AN/I threads before launching another one to run at the same time. __ E L A Q U E A T E 01:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh, sheesh. You are sidetracking already? Why are five processes worse than four? Where have I threatened to out her off-wiki? I'm not involved in Wikipediocracy or anything like that and any outing that I may have done here is merely to suggest that people check out her user page history, where she once had a link to a website. She chose to put that there, not me. I'm quite happy to be scrutinised, bearing in mind that (for example), neither party's talk page has ever been on my watchlist and I've generally not been involved in WT:GGTF discussions etc. I've got better things to do than watch two people go at it hammer-and-tongs. - Sitush (talk) 01:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

One day, I'll post the link to your website on WP and then everyone will understand. Hard to read that as neutral or benign. __ E L A Q U E A T E 01:39, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

It would look like forum shopping. —Neotarf (talk) 01:51, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd prefer a diff, please. That's the more usual way to prove a point and it helps to put things in context. - Sitush (talk) 08:39, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Not really, what would he/she be shopping for? RfCs cannot impose remedies but may lead as proof to ArbCom that there's a problem. Tutelary (talk) 01:52, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:FORUMSHOP "Raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards, or to multiple administrators, is unhelpful to finding and achieving consensus....(This is also known as "asking the other parent".)" —Neotarf (talk) 02:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

At this stage I doubt an RFC/U would be helpful. Participants would simply see the same ole allegations and diffs being trotted out. (Which assumes anyone has the energy to get into the RFC/U process.) The IBAN, as originally proposed, is the best course of action. With an IBAN in place each editor can contribute in the areas they feel comfortable and there'd be much, much less friction. Make it two-way – CarolMooreDC has little reason to follow SPECIFICO about so it would not be a "punishment" in any sense. – S. Rich (talk) 02:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Would Carol be open to a two-way interaction ban? What about SPECIFICO? I haven't seen him comment yet. Did he get notified? —Neotarf (talk) 03:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I have now left a message on his talk page. —Neotarf (talk) 03:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

SPECIFICO usually stays out of these things that involve him, and given his lack of editing activity since the ANI opened I'm pretty sure he is aware. You might ping CMDC and find out what her feelings are. – S. Rich (talk) 03:52, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I think there is enough evidence, including the direct admission from SPECIFICO below on this very page that he actively follows CMDC's edits (as if it is his personal responsibility), to handle this with a site ban of SPECIFICO (reevaluated on his request after, say, 6 months). His activities are a net drain on resources in the project, not only because of his hounding and other things that have landed him on the ANI page, but also because of his deletionism, POV editing, and his lack of actual competence in regards to editorial balance, sourcing, factual accuracy, and WP policy. If a drawn-out RFC/U (or ArbCom modification request of his current prohibitions) is the course of action that people want to take, count me in. -- Netoholic @ 05:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

SPECIFICO response to Neotarf's request

The overwhelming majority of the sentiment on this thread originates from the GG task force, where Carolmooredc selectively and solicited participation with biased language (i.e. “canvassed.”). All in all, I see a disappointing amount of opinion which is not supported by evidence, diffs, or detailed discussion.

Moreover, per WP policy on banning, any bans imposed as a result of this thread must be based on consensus of uninvolved editors, of which there are very few here. If you read the page which presents the applicable policy, you’ll also see that the page contemplates that editors should self-identify as involved or uninvolved in the course of the thread. Such disclosure is important because it provides all editors to evaluate evidence in the context of that information. It’s very questionable in my opinion whether this thread is ripe to result in a ban of any sort.

That having been said, it’s evident that many members of the GGTF have lined up behind Carolmooredc’s de facto command there and that most of those who’ve felt motivated to comment do not value my participation there.

Slim Virgin asked me, in early September, to reduce my participation on the GGTF page. I immediately reduced my activity there considerably but not entirely. Given the current situation there and the tenor of this thread, I am willing to resign my membership in that group and to discontinue my participation on the GGTF pages. I feel that’s responsive to the good faith concerns several editors have voiced in this thread.

I’m not willing to volunteer for any other sanction, and I doubt that, per WP banning policy cited above, the imposition of any such outcome could be justified from what I see here. I deny the accusation of hounding for reasons cited by several editors here. I do not follow Carolmooredc’s activity in order to upset her but rather to help ensure that any text conforms to WP standards with respect to Reliable Sourcing, Neutral Point of View, and other key policies. As is well known from her own on-Wiki narrative, she participates in Wikipedia as an extension of her off-Wiki activism. She has used her talk page to direct users to her personal websites which she details her views on various controversial subjects. For many years, long before I was here, she has been embroiled in controversy in many topics which have ended up at Arbcom.

What appears to have precipitated this ANI thread was my removal of poorly-sourced and cherry-picked SYNTH text at the 9-11 article [78] and my objection to her use of a non-RS reference (per RSN) to promote an undue narrative about living persons of the Bush Administration in the 9-11 inquiry article.[79] It has been my observation that such lapses occur repeatedly in Carolmooredc’s editing. On occasions when I read and comment on such edits, not on Carolmooredc personally, to improve them, that is not hounding or harassment. There is justification and nothing to be gained for the benefit of WP by banning me from such edits.

So I think it’s reasonable for my fellow GGTF members to vote me off the island there, if they so choose and I would withdraw from the group. No other sanction is warranted or justified by this thread based on the evidence, discussion, and applicable policy, nor would any other sanction serve any purpose. SPECIFICO talk 04:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I think it very helpful and I have left a message on Carol's talk page. The biggest conflict I think is one of style, since you like fact-checking and probably writing BLPs, while I think Carol's energy level is a big asset to the group, especially with so many disruptions going on now. Maybe after 6 months you can ask to reconsider, if you wish, and if the group is still active, but I think after all this excitement you will each prefer to find a niche where you can be content, and just leave it at that. —Neotarf (talk) 04:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

There is a bit of mixup here. Per WP:CBAN, the decision to ban is "via a consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute [emphasis added]." The particulars of any underlying dispute have not been described or discussed on this thread (at least my scan of the postings does not show me any such discussion). Actually, the concerns raised go far beyond the interaction at the GGTF. In fact, the discussions are largely about the original proposal for a IBAN based on the long, continuing, and disruptive interaction. That said, anyone who has been watching the interaction between SPECIFICO and CarolMooreDC has a perfect right to opine. Their opinions are valid because they do not involve any particular underlying dispute. The fact that a notice about this ANI was posted on the GGTF is a red-herring and only served to complicate the basic discussion. That is, the interaction between Specifico and CMDC on the GGTF is but one episode in the soap opera that pre-dates GGTF interaction. (Moreover, is there any analysis that shows that the editors supporting some sort of ban are allied with CMDC?) So it comes back to the basic question – would an IBAN between Specifico and CMDC benefit the community? Again I say yes and I believe the consensus supports such a ban. – S. Rich (talk) 05:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

There has been some speculation that Specifico's interest in Gender Gap is because of Carol. Do they normally interact in any other areas? In any case, an IBAN would not necessarily extend to GG pages, and I believe they should. So I would propose the following sub-agreement, no matter the outcome of the interaction ban discussion: 1) Membership : SPECIFICO has agreed to give up his membership in the group, however I don't know if this is necessary or desirable. He may want to keep informed of various topics of interest presented on the pages and just remain an inactive member. 2) Interaction: SPECIFICO agrees to discontinue participation on the GGTF pages. This is absolutely necessary. But what if SPECIFICO has, say, a list of articles to work on that he would like to post to the pages? Could there be one or two individuals volunteer as conduits, to post something on his behalf, or would this be unwise, as a further source of possible contention. —Neotarf (talk) 05:46, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you read alanyst's comment above. In fact, I recommend that you consult with alanyst. You will find the interaction has been ongoing and diverse. – S. Rich (talk) 06:22, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP promoting the ideas of the reincarnated Christ and Einstein

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This is 75.74.130.115 (talk · contribs) from Miami who is promoting the ideas of one Richard Bradshaw Watson II also from Miami, whose forum site[80] states "I, the Christ, have returned. GOD and I have produced the "book/scroll" of The Revelation 5:1-10:10 and opened the "7 seals" which are explained here as 'beyond Einsten theories'. All our eternal souls pass through time by reincarnation and my soul's last incarnation was as Albert Einstein. 2,000 years ago I was Y'shua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph)." According to the IP's talk page, I (also from Miami, this must prove something, right?) "immediately deleted the most important thing on Wikipedia without even reading it". See his posts to the latest 2 sections of Talk:Seven Seals. Spamming and WP:NOTHERE. Dougweller (talk) 15:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Also editing as User:50.153.102.0 and 50.153.107.0 (talk · contribs) - on 2nd thought not sure where this IP is, south Florida somewhere but it must be the same one as content is the same. Dougweller (talk) 15:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The supposed credibility of Mr. Watson comes from what he claims is a presentation at a NASA conference. I find no evidence for him being invited by NASA beyond Watson's claim. Unless the IP can provide some independent verification of Watson's eminence, none of it belongs here. --Jprg1966 ^(talk) 15:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The IP has been making numerological edits related to the number seven on a wide range of articles, most notably at History of Astronomy. It seems there's a dynamic IP allocation here; "Ben Franklin", as he calls himself, has been editing as User:50.153.107.0, User:75.74.130.115, and User:50.153.102.0. SteveMcCluskey (talk) 16:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Range block? The 50.153.xx IPs that Steve mentions fall in 50.153.96.0/20, a nice small range. Moreover, a check with HelloAnnyong's cool tool winkles out several other numerologically-oriented IPs in the same range. For instance, here's a nice personal attack from 50.153.105.11 (talk · contribs · WHOIS): Arthur: Your ignorance is hampering the spread of knowledge… A numerologist can also use your low IQ but that doesn't make your low IQ numerology. (The low-IQ "Arthur" there is Arthur Rubin.) Can anyone see any reason not to block this range for at least a month or two? Any useful contributions whatever? Bishonen | talk 19:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC).

Addition: anyway, both 50.153.96.0/20 and 75.74.130.115 are obviously Dougweller editing logged out, per his post above. Block 'em all and let the godking sort 'em out. Bishonen | talk 19:40, 12 September 2014 (UTC).

Captain Kirk solved (maybe should say "will solve") this in Star Trek V: The Final Frontier using a very simple question. "Why does God need an IP address to edit Wikipedia?" It stumps them every time but makes them angry and they shoot lightning from their eyes. Also the transporter was broken. Again. --DHeyward (talk) 07:18, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Lol. Block the range - I've never done a range block, might to it this afternoon after I eat my way through a food fair if no one beats me to it. Dougweller (talk) 07:37, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

50.153.96.0/20 range blocked for two months. Not sure what to do about the dynamic 75.74.130.115, though. Considering the amusing personal attacks on Dougweller ("You are one moon-loony-goony"), I've blocked it for 31 hours, even though I frankly don't see a lot of point. Bishonen | talk 19:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC).

Thanks, although I didn't care about the personal attack - funny and ironic, someone pusshing a guy who claims he's the reincarnation of Jesus and Einstein thinks I'm loony? Dougweller (talk) 20:43, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mass reversion and disrespectful language - Proportional Representation

I am writing regarding issues with another editor, BalCoder. Remaining differences between us regarding content do not appear to me terribly large, so I am reporting this as an instance of what seems to me inappropriate behavior rather than as a content matter.

I began working on the WP page on Proportional Representation last March, but worked on it more actively beginning on August 5. As it turned out, this was shortly after BalCoder had also made some significant changes (August 2).

On August 20, BalCoder reverted a significant part of what I had done by skipping over intervening versions and reverting to his August 2 version of the Lead section. (I tend to work in manageable chunks, so my edits are saved in multiple updates.) I felt that skipping over intermediate versions in this way was dangerous, since useful edits could be lost in between one version and the other, so I reverted the Lead back, then engaged with BalCoder in Talk to determine what the issues were, so that they could be addressed. Discussions were extensive, and I believe that BalCoder's concerns have been addressed. See Talk on the Lead section in particular, but also the subsequent sections on the "new Lead" and on "Advantages and Disadvantages."

However, from early on, BalCoder took a very possessive approach to what he had written on August 2, and any changes were strongly resisted. On August 23, he wrote: "What I should do, in the spirit of WP:BRD, is to revert your changes, then we could discuss and you could start over but I don't have the time or the inclination. What you should do is revert to the combined section yourself and then build on that." I thought it would be less work to address BalCoder's comments, so I did that.

We went back and forth, and I felt we were making progress, although I found Balcoder's language excessively abrasive on some occasions. On August 28, Balcoder took me to task for responding so extensively in Talk, writing, "please try to keep your posts to a moderate length - this is a joke. And it doesn't even say much." This put me in a catch-22 situation where I would be criticized for not explaining my edits, but chastised for writing too much. Regarding a relatively modest edit on Sortition, he wrote: "You have so misshapen the paragraph that it is borderline garbage." In other cases, I found his accusations of bias to be both unfair and disrespectful. Balcoder has made some good points, which deserve to be taken into account, but often seems incapable of respecting alternative points of view.

As Balcoder wrote on Sept. 11, "I do have precious little respect for your work... Most of it was unnecessary, unconsidered, wrong and ignored WP guidelines, and all of it was overly wordy. Refs have been displaced, narrative flow replaced by non-sequiturs, and structure destroyed." Were I a novice with feelings of inadequacy, I would feel the need to accept this judgement, but I enough confidence to avoid being browbeaten in this way. I am a published scholar of several books and have considerable experience as a writer, editor and senior policy analyst.

Finally, on Sept. 11 and 12, Balcoder decided to revert all edits to this WP page since his own revisions of August 2 (I had rejected his first attempt and made further edits to address his comments, so he reverted my changes twice). His view is that we can take it from there.

I beg to differ with BalCoder's general comments and responded that dismissive comments such as the above were too general to be useful. Furthermore, I have made considerable effort to engage with BalCoder on the Talk page so that we can properly understand our differences. I am fairly new to Wikipedia, and BalCoder definitely has things to teach me, which I appreciate, but I don't fee that gives him the right to be abusive or to revert all of the work that I have done.

I have spent countless hours working on this page, including extensive efforts to accomodate BalCoder's comments. In my view it is not appropriate to revert back to a version that is now 40 days old with numerous interim versions in between. Such a radical approach could be justified if the work I had done was shoddy or unsubstantiated, but it is not, and the fundamental problem appears to be BalCoder's excessive attachment to his own contribution on August 2. Redoing all of the work that I have done over those 40 days would be an undue burden.

I would thus like BalCoder's reversion of this morning to be reversed, and for us to take if from there, as proposed in my Talk contribution of Sept. 12.

Secondly, I would like to invite BalCoder to be more respectful, and to recognize that others may legitimately have different views. His work from August 2, however useful, is not the last word.Reallavergne (talk) 20:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Reallavergne, please read WP:BRD. That essay recommends that discussion take place before the second revert. Tiderolls 20:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick and helpful response. WP-BRD is a useful reference that I had not yet reviewed in detail. BalCoder has pointed out to me the protocol that I should not revert his reversion so I have now decided to follow that advice until the matter is further discussed. It gets a bit more complicated when the reversion takes place AFTER a lot of discussion has been made and considerable changes to accommodate that discussion have already been made. Applying BRD indiscriminately to multiple edits as has been done here also seems rather odd. BRD also suggests the following: "BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes."Reallavergne (talk) 21:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want, you can open a Request for Comment on the talk page to get more opinions. Epicgenius (talk) 13:32, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

SonOfPlisskin

This user has been harassing me on my talk page and participated in name-calling, referring to me as a "troll" on his own talk page and on mine, falsely accusing me of being another editor, while providing no evidence to back up his claims. Note that this is a shared IP used publicly by customers of the restaurant McDonald's, not a home connection. --64.134.96.198 (talk) 01:02, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

There's really nothing to be dealt with here. Some background, since I've recently been intervening here. The IP has been doing some pretty heavy WP:GENREWARRIORing, and not convincing anyone because he's largely dismissing sources that known for being reliable, (Major publications like Revolver (magazine), and trying to interject either unreliable sources, or their personal opinion, instead.

• Does this need intervention on any level? No.

• SonOfPlisskin accused the person on this IP of being responsible for other past troublesome edits from the IP. I don't believe it's that outlandish of a conclusion, but at worst, it would require a polite reminder to assume good faith. I've also instructed the IP to create an account if other people's edits at this IP is truly getting this person in trouble.
• Do we need intervention with the genre warring? No, there's clear consensus forming against the IP on the related talk pages. The IP is already being troublesome with criticism, and I imagine I'll be blocking him if that crosses over into editing against consensus.

So basically, I'd recommend this be closed/archived right away, as everything's under control, and the IP's actual grievance is not actionable. Sergecross73 msg me 01:56, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, looking at the edit history of the IP user and comparing it to the edit history of ProgGuy, who was briefly banned back in July, it's pretty obvious that it's the same person. The edits made to the Mudvayne & L.D. 50 (album) are identical to those made by ProgGuy as is the insistence that his sources are reliable and that any sources provided that say otherwise are not. Seems like a case of a user who was banned once wants to further his points by acting as another editor, an action he accused myself and and SonOfPlisskin of multiple times back in July. NJZombie (talk) 20:52, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it is not obvious that I am the same person, because I am not the same person. The only thing that is obvious is that you, NJZombie are a sockpuppet of Son of Plisskin, and Son of Plisskin is an edit warrior who refuses to let anyone edit outside of his opinion, regardless of the facts. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

No, there is not a "consensus forming against" me, Sergecross. Son of Plisskin is an abusive stalker and needs to be banned. Son of Plisskin deserves an electronic spanking for his vandalism and attacks against other editors, and using NJZombie as a sockpuppet. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

True to form, here come the obligatory baseless sockpuppet accusations that got him banned last time. Also sent to my talk page. NJZombie (talk) 22:10, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I WAS NEVER BANNED SINCE I ONLY STARTED EDITING IN AUGUST AND THE FACT THAT YOU CONTINUE TO ACCUSE ME OF BEING PROGGUY IS EVIDENCE THAT YOU ARE SON OF PLISSKIN AS YOU ARE THE ONLY EDITOR WHO BELIEVES AS SUCH. 64.134.96.198 (talk) 23:01, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

64*, if you believe there is sockpuppetry, you need to file a case at WP:SPI with evidence. Please remember that groundless accusations of sockpuppetry are considered personal attacks. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Sandra Bussin

Sandra Bussin was protected from editing by User:Bearcat due to a brief edit war, yet there is no expiry for the protection, and there has been no response to my latest discussion on the talk page. PortugalPepe (talk) 04:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

What's the rush? the panda ₯’ 07:41, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

@DangerousPanda: Don't EW-protected ṕages usually have expiry dates of a week or so? Epicgenius (talk) 13:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, oftentimes. It can always be amended, although in this case it might be necessary to keep it locked throughout the upcoming municipal elections. My point is that there's no rush - wait until Bearcat has had a chance to answer - a couple of days won't make a difference the panda ₯’ 18:31, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• It's not a problem, as DP points out. But I will reiterate my position that indefinite protection for articles (or anything where you don't actually expect the protection to last forever) is not a good practice. If it's expected that an article will need protection for some rough period of time then just guesstimate and set a reasonable expiry date. That way if you take a break or what have you there's no situation where another admin has to interpret your intent and needlessly reverse an admin action. Protonk (talk) 23:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

  So by "indefinite protection", "pick an expiry date later" is meant, not "never going to be unlocked". Got it. Epicgenius (talk) 12:31, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

  Sometimes "indefinite" means "never going to be unlocked", see widely used templates as a good example. I just mean that ideally every admin action should be one which does not invite or require a reversal in a reasonable scenario. Meaning if I protect the article on Tulips indefinitely I should only do so if I think that the passage of time is not likely to alter the reason for protection. Otherwise at some point I have to remove or modify the protection or (more likely) someone else is tempted to do the same but has to worry if I'll get upset at the change. In practice we can (and do) resolve this by communicating w/ the admin taking the original action but it's much, much better for the original action to not require that communication or reversal. So instead if I protect Tulips for 2 days odds are after those two days the reason for protection will have diminished and the action will resolve itself on its own. If inside those two days someone feels that the protection should be removed (or extended) then a discussion can happen about that--great, the system works! But indefinite protection requires such a discussion regardless of the underlying circumstances or the passage of time. In an extreme case where I'm not willing to modify the protection someone has to bite the bullet and reverse my action against my will because the alternative (an article being protected forever) is untenable. That's not a wheel war but it's the first step toward one. Our best practices should push us away from that scenario wherever possible. Protonk (talk) 14:53, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

EZILADNAVLLIWI

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Yet another Evlekis sock abusing talk page while blocked. If someone could deal with please. Amortias (T)(C) 11:30, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

It appears Smalljim already blocked the account. Jim Carter (from public cyber) 14:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

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Crazy People Crazy Papa

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Hi, yet another Evlekis sock talk page abusing, another talk page revocation/deletion if someone would be so kind. Amortias (T)(C) 17:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

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Accusations of "vandalism", and disruptive editing across many articles

This is elevating to the level absurdity, at this point. I'm sure I'm going to boomeranged to pieces, but I'm just upset, so I'll air my grievances. I previously brought a complaint against Niele (talk · contribs) at this forum earlier in the week. That was unproductive, and hence I abandoned it in favour of a WP:DRN case. However, despite this, and despite being warned about the Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions, Niele has continued to disruptively edit across Ukrainian crisis-related articles. He constantly reverts edits by accusing people of "vandalism" and "PoV pushing" in edit summaries at every turn.[81][82][83] He previously derided me as a Marxist propaganda monger, which is something one can find out about at the last AN/I thread. He has again accused me of "agenda pushing", this time after I made a request for closure at WP:AN.[84] He has continued to attempt to right great wrongs across many articles, and has not listened to anyone.[85][86] His version of "consensus" appears to rely on whether people agree with him. At this point, no one has. I can frankly say that I believe that Niele is not here to build an encyclopaedia. Even after the last AN/I thread, where he was warned not make personal attacks, even after he was warned about Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions, he continued this behaviour. In fact, he has escalated it. I suggest a topic ban, under the banner of the Eastern European discretionary sanctions, from Ukraine-crisis related articles. RGloucester — ☎ 18:56, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

User RGloucester was warned about not starting edit wars, but he dit starts it again. I did not participate or react when he reverts al of my edits. He personaly theatend me with 'Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions' after previous episode. While this was not discussed but his personal choise. The Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions also count's for him and I ask that he is banned instead.

The past day he is completly dissecting the 'Russian military intervention in Ukraine'-page. A page that he doesn't wants to exist, like he didn't want the 'Russo-Ukrainian war'-page and the 'Russian invasian'-page (made by other wikipedia users. Clearing parts of the infobox, removing the internation reactions to a subpage of donbaswar, removing sources Russian unit's, the shelling by Russia over the border into Ukraine,... all in a POV-push to hide the participation of Russia in this war as much as possible and portraying this war as a internal Ukrainian war.

I ask that user RGloucester is banned on basis of Eastern Europe discretionary sanctions. because he is undoing the work of many wikipedians in a constant POV puch to hide sourced info. --Niele (talk) 19:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I will let this stand, given how absurd it is. I will just say that I love how spinning off International reactions to the war in Donbass is considered a bad thing, given the severe length problems that war in Donbass has. I think Niele should take the advice of another editor. RGloucester — ☎ 19:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The original two articles (intervention) and (invasion) by Russia from wich the international reactions came, were not about a dombas war but about the military intervention/warconduct by Russia. Now these reactions are stuffed away under a page of the donbas-war claiming that it is only about the month august.--Niele (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You neutrality is so great that you write about the 'Russian invasion in Ukraine' article (not written by me) things like: "If this article is going to stay, we might as well make it humorous."

As I tried to explaine you in the previous episode, this is disturbing to people and covering up a war is a sensitive thing. A war in wich 900 Ukrainian soldiers and 200-400 Russian soldiers died is not humorous or an absurd something and trying to hide it, is not respectfull to the people who died fighting it.--Niele (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a poor venue for this type of complaint. I suggest filing this at WP:AE. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I would rather not be forced to carry on across many noticeboards. This is giving me enough of a headache already, and I believe user conduct can be evaluated here as well as it can there. RGloucester — ☎ 20:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Recruitment?

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Having just read Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket#The ACS, it is surely recruitment and a breach of the no promotions policy. Moreover, the opening post in the topic seems to contravene WP:DENY. Should it all be removed? GnGn (talk) 20:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

It's harmless and not overt.--v/r - TP 21:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Seems fine to me. Protonk (talk) 22:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

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Wikihounding

From: WP:WIKIHOUNDING

'Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.'

(...)

'The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions.'

I kindly request the admins to have a look at redlink user:Tiptoethrutheminefield's edit history, attitude towards me and the language they use in referring to me in discussions and edit summaries.

I already warned them enough and indeed they believe they are harassed by me and were going to report me (I am taking the trouble in their name) so please also look at my behaviour against them and tell me my faults.

Thank you very much and regards to all. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

P.S. I am reporting a user for the first time, so I may have made mistakes. Sorry. (I hope I will never again disturb this board.)

While Tiptoe shouldn't have called your warning WP:vandalism, there was zero reason to reverted their removal of your warning which you appear to know they were fully entitled to do by the WP:TPG. At worst, you should have left a simple message on their talk page something similar to in the summary. Nil Einne (talk) 22:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The pot is calling the kettle black here. This editor has made multiple bad faith postings on my talk page: [87], [88], [89], [90], [91], [92]. When I warned him that his reverting of material that I deleted on my talk page amounted to harassment, his response was "challenge accepted"! [93]. He posts similar warnings on the pages of other users as well [94], [95], [96], [97]. Rather than try and justify edits through talk page discussion, Why should I have a User Name? trys to silence those who reject his edits by posting these sort of messages on users pages. Of course he is every bit as involved in any on-going editing issues as the recipients of his messages - that is why I have called them bad faith postings, and I think they are a misuse of Wikipedia form messages.

Many of Why should I have a User Name?'s interactions with editors consist of threats of Wikipedia sanctions or insults, he regularly misuses edit summaries to make them the delivery method: take these examples from the last month: "This is your last warning. One more POV edit and you will find yourself before a board defending yourself", "Go to discuss somewhere else and please do not threaten other users; you may get blocked", "Rv disruptive edit by Wikihound troll", "we have a right to expect some seriousness", "You cannot make the articles your own, in WP. Better make your own encyclopedia or participate in a forum where you can act the way you like, here there are rules to obey", "you are stealing the article! Please edit in a resonable and NPOV manner", "Please read our guidelines and try to understand how WP functions", "For User Alessandro57: Actions speak louder than words", "Comment to the 'creator' of the article", "Keep your OR to yourself", "1. First learn to sign your talk. 2. Read my page and review my edits before making stupid images of mine in your head. 3. Please do not come back here", "Read my contributions and TP before I take you somewhere", "You are trying to "own" the article and edit warring. You are trying to make a tailored suit, ignoring WP rules and practice and are about to be reported for disruption. So please stop absurd editing.", "Talk page only for civilized users".

I have been following some of Why should I have a User Name?|'s edits because he makes lots of AfD proposals, some of which I feel are unjustified, he regularly deletes material from articles on the grounds that they are unreferenced (rather than posting a fact tag beside that content), and he regularly deletes material that has been fact tagged without ever bothering to find sources. On occasions I have restored content that he has deleted, giving that material new sources, sources that could have been easily found by Why should I have a User Name?, and on occasions I have opposed his AfDs, in most cases successfully. If required, I can provide many diffs illustrating these sort of edits and I don't think they come under wikihounding. I have concerns about this editor's editing style - he is far to eager to delete and almost never uses article talk pages. This talk page thread shows my very first interaction with this editor [98].Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Repeating copyright violations

StanTheMan87 (talk · contribs) was warned [99] but he keeps uploading images of Mullah Omar after they get deleted. [100] "Thousands of United States troops scouring Afghanistan for Mullah Mohammad Omar have been looking for the wrong man, according to an Afghan villager who says that it is his face on the CIA's wanted poster and not that of the fugitive Taliban leader." [101] This proves that U.S. government is posting images of people who are not Mullah Omar.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 23:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• @Krzyhorse22: Can you just link to the file (e.g. [[:File:File Name Here.jpg]]? No need to have an image with a caption on AN/I. Protonk (talk) 23:30, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• It's labelled as a non-free file, so it's not okay to display it here. I have converted it to a wikilink. Also, you forgot to notify StanTheMan87 of this thread. I have done that step for you. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:00, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • ...didn't we just have this discussion? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:23, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks. The guy is determined to upload controversial images and is saying weird stuff on my talk page (i.e. You sound like you have been hired by the Taliban to quell any discussion of its members on the English Wikipedia. You seem to try and find any and every conceivable reason for not allowing anything to be be uploaded. I know you hold a POV on both Taliban and MO. Have you lost someone to Taliban?). [102] File:Mullah Mohammed Omar.png <-- This is obviously not the one-eyed Mullah Omar. It shows an unknown man with both eyes turning to the side so that is clear evidence it is not someone with artificial eye. A person with artificial eye (glass eye) is someone like Peter Falk (Columbo), the fake eye stays looking straight while the non-defective eye moves around. Mullah Omar's right eye is popped (like Popeye). How can I get his latest uploads deleted?--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 02:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, User:The Bushranger, we did. The Krzyhorse22 account is a single-purpose disruptive account that appears to exist solely for the purpose of filing ANIs against StanTheMan87 (his first three edits after registering his account were ANI filings against StanTheMan87, among a wide variety of other things that have been exhaustively discussed previously). Expect to see this discussion again next week, and the next, and the next … DocumentError (talk) 07:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Firstly before any admins judge my conduct when it comes to uploading images onto Wikipedia, see Krzyhorse22 past reasons and explanations for having the images removed. He lied, claiming that he notified the director of the CIA to prove his point of view, see DocumentError on Krzyhorse22's behavior [103] "BTW, I just called the head of CIA and he said nobody is sure if that guy in the image is the real Mullah Omar." he dismissed claims that one of the images didn't portray who the source stated it portrayed, without providing any evidence, see [104] "The truth is that's not MO but someone else. There is clear evidence somewhere that proves it is another person. I don't have time to search it." and [105] "The guy shown from the side was interviewed a number of years ago and it was proven to be someone other than Omar." with no proof cited. But the most outrageous of them all was when he accused all Afghans of being too corrupt and called Khalid Hadi, an afghan photographer, a liar again without citing proof. see [106] "An Afghan guy claiming he took photo of Mullah Omar is not proof. Afghans in general are corrupt and they exaggerate too much." see [107] "Khalid Hadi was proven to be a liar". This is ridiculous, and now he is going after meager details in a fair use screenshot from a 1996 clandestinely took documentary clip stating "the men in the image appear to have both eyes." see [108] Note that you cannot see the eyes in the image, but merely two darkened eye sockets. When you loose an eye, you do not loose the socket which encompasses it. Furthermore, his badgering to have [109] removed as it doesn't portray the person it is intended to portray has already been added to the image description in the form of a disclaimer so as to not confuse those who use the article. A disclaimer reading "Photo allegedly portraying Mullah Omar according to the U.S State Department" see [110] has been used, and I have avoided using the image as the image used in the info-box of the article. I have tried to use a conciliatory stance with regards to these uploads, as I had forewarned my intentions of uploading them on his wall see [111], but to no avail it seems. StanTheMan87 (talk) 06:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

This is not about User:StanTheMan87. User:Krzyhorse22 has engaged in an extremely bizarre pattern of behavior during his time on WP that has included, among other things, Talk page harassment of StanTheMan87, repeated nominating of this file for deletion and block-shopping against StanTheMan87 through repeated ANIs. I have previously brought up Krzyhorse's extremely unusual behavior (that was capped by a legal threat that he [KrzyHorse] had been consulting with the director of the CIA about StanTheMan87!) as a possible single-purpose disruptive account in ANI but the thread was archived before an admin commented. It is absolutely unreasonable that StanTheMan87 should be subject to this level of ongoing harassment which appears designed to do nothing more than exhaust him from editing these subjects in order to further a wild conspiracy theory KrzyHrse22 appears to be trying to promote on WP. What is occurring right now is the exact definition of WikiBullying. I'm pinging User:HJ Mitchell and User:Protonkbecause I'm afraid this is going to go unnoticed and archived again until the next ANI against StanTheMan87 that KH22 files. DocumentError (talk) 06:28, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

You have accused others of being single purpose account but you were proven wrong. [112] What's more interesting is that you and StanTheMan87 behave very much the same. For example, in edit summary both of you write "added image". [113] [114] You both upload images the same way. [115] [116] The following two diffs [117] [118] and the fact that you sign the same way, edit once in a blue moon, showing up together in the same discussions, typing similar long text with the same POV (repeating the call to CIA head, and etc.) makes it too obvious that you are abusing multiple accounts. I guess you don't care because you'll just create another account. Tell us, are you abusing multiple accounts? Just say yes or no. If you answer no then I'll file SPI. As for me, I'm not single purpose account. I have no connection or anything to Taliban. I just don't like to see false information and false licenses. I feel the world will be better when there is more truth.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

JoinTial‎

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Hi, recently blocked editor is now abusing talk page can someone pull talkpage as well. Have messaged blocking admin but no response yet. Amortias (T)(C) 22:43, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Scratch that its just been done. Amortias (T)(C) 22:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

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Misuse of rollback

Beyond My Ken (talk · contribs) has misused rollback to revert non-vandalism edits on some 200 articles. Ser Amantio di Nicolao (talk · contribs) used AWB to add Category:American films after a brief discussion at WikiProject Film. While there wasn't much time to develop a consensus as to whether he should use AWB to mass-add the category, the category itself clearly states that it is non-diffusing and should be added. BMK mass-reverted these edits. When I told him to stop using rollback to revert non-vandalism, his response was to ban me from his talk page and tell me to "stuff it" because he has more edits than me. I was going to leave this alone, but he seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of when to use rollback. These good-faith edits were clearly not vandalism. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Errmmm... In your second contribution to that talk-page you make ANI-threats. Trying to reach consensus does not usually imply acting as if you were the benevolent dictator of Wikipedia. That's Jimbo's job. I can't say your approach is one that engenders any form of consensus and it sure would have antagonized me, too. "Stuff it" seems rather moderate, some terms come to (my) mind that are distinctly less flattering. I don't give a hoot on whether you're "right" or not, but the way you talked to BMK is a surefire way not to get what you want. Next time try asking "What's up, doc?" instead of "telling people" what to do. You may get better results. Kleuske (talk) 07:47, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Actually, the fundamental misunderstanding seems to be on NRP's part. Rollback is primarily intended to be used for vandalism, but, as stated clearly in WP:ROLLBACK, it is also suitable to be used

To revert widespread edits (by a misguided editor or malfunctioning bot) which are judged to be unhelpful to the encyclopedia, provided that an explanation is supplied in an appropriate location, such as at the relevant talk page

The appropriate explanation is provided on my own talk page.

Having left a comment to User:Ser Amantio di Nicolao on their talk page about their errant AWB edits, the editor responded on my talk page and I replied there as well. There can be no mistaking my response, combined with the rollback-reverts of Ser Anatio di Nicolao's AWB edits, as a clear explanation of what was happening. Certainly Ser Anatio di Nicolao understood, because he stopped making the edits in question almost immediately. It is only NinjaRobotPirate, significantly not one of the two editors actually involved, who seems to have a problem with understanding the use of rollback to undo unwarranted AWB edits.

I do not ask for any sanction against Ser Anatio di Nicolao for the use of AWB for controversial edits (which is not allowed), because I believe that he thought the edits he was making were justified, and I am convinced that he understood completely the point of my rollback-reverts, as he stopped making edits of the type under discussion.

It's worth, I think, talking about the type of edits that I was rolling back. Articles which already were categorized with Category:American Western (genre) films were having Category:American films added to them. It is my understanding that a basic principle of categorization on Wikipedia is that if an article has a child category already on it, a parent category should not be added, and Category:American Western (genre) films is certainly a child of Category:American films.

This is clearly a case of an editor getting poor advice from a Wikiproject and proceeding on that basis to use AWB to make a large number of inappropriate edits, of another editor (me) catching the mistake and using rollback to revert the errant edits, and of a third editor (NinjaPirateRobot) inserting themself into the situation to complicate matters unnecessarily. BMK (talk) 08:10, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there's any problem with BMK's use of rollback in this situation. There is, though, clearly a WP:CIVIL issue in BMK's responses to NinjaRobotPirate - but Kleuske's comments above regarding NinjaRobotPirate's actions here are also valid; NRP clearly antagonised BMK rather than dealing with the situation calmly. I don't think any admin action is needed here but both editors need to cool down a bit and discuss the issue in a much less aggressive way. WaggersTALK 09:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I note here that Ser Amantio di Nicolao plans to resume making these edits in the morning. If he does, I will be asking for his AWB privileges to be removed, as AWB is very specifically not to be used for controversial edits, and the addition of a parent category to an article which already contains a child category is very clearly "controversial". BMK (talk) 10:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• BMK is correct: it is fine to use rollback "To revert widespread edits... provided that an explanation is supplied". By contrast, it is unacceptable to use AWB to add a pointless category after a discussion with two comments. Yes, BMK should not have been uncivil, but what was expected after the ex cathedra statement that BMK was "especially disruptive"? Johnuniq (talk) 10:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'll comment only on the use of Rollback: the use of any automated tool, including AWB, carries a much higher standard of quality to the community. As AWB can literally do hundreds of edits over a few minutes, the hazard to the project is greater. Improper edits using AWB (even if well-meaning) are obviously subject to the use of Rollback as a not-quite-as-quick methods of undoing those hundreds of improper edits. the panda ɛˢˡ” 10:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Ken has missed the point of a long-standing consensus on this issue. It has been discussed at the Film Project many times (example 1, example 2). In the above text he cites the category Category:American Western (genre) films. This is not a sub-category of Category:American films, but a sub of Category:American films by genre, which is explained clearly in the reply in example two by Betty Logan. Maybe Ken should try and gain a consensus with the Film Project to change this? Until he does, then he should not rollback any edits. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 11:28, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

No issue with the use of rollback, entirely justified by policy. My question is, why don't we remove AWB before the threatened disruption begins again tomorrow? That is the definition of preventative that underlines our blocking policy itself. Daniel (talk) 15:18, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Admin threat

Would an uninvolved admin please take a look at this edit? User:Andrevan is explicitly threatening using his admin tools in order to enforce his preferred version of an article. This seems like a blatant misuse of admin privileges. StAnselm (talk) 09:59, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Hm, that's not what "explicit" means. I didn't use any admin tools nor did I threaten to; I made an oblique reference to means and mechanisms. Note that I have stopped edit warring and slapped an NPOV tag on the article. "Engage in the mechanisms" refers to starting RFCs or coming to noticeboards like these. I would however love if someone would come by and explain WP:RNPOV and WP:RS/AC to these folks. Andrevan@ 10:06, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

You said "I have an argument and the means to pursue the accomplishment of policy-driven goals". That is clearly referring to something I don't have - namely, admin tools. And then you explained that you were, in fact, making a threat: "Yes that is a threat - a threat to engage in the mechanisms which enforce policies like those quoted above." Personally, I think that is appalling behavior from an admin, but of course that would be for the community to decide. StAnselm (talk) 10:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The means I have which you lack are primarily that I have a logical argument, familiarity with this system and policies, and the ability to make some noise. Perhaps I left this hanging threat ambiguous, but you know full well I could not follow through on a use of admin tools in this case. The edit warring I've already done is in bad form as it is considering I began as the formal mediator of this dispute. Even assuming I were referring to admin tools, that would be implicit, not explicit. If I were going to block you or protect the article I could have done that already. Andrevan@ 10:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment It's not explicity what Andrevan was referring to by "means to pursue" could be admin tools, could be anything else, however would the original edit war and underlying conflict not be better resolved with an RFC? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SPACKlick (talk • contribs)

• Comment To editor Andrevan: - the only "ability to make some noise" that you have and St Anselm doesn't comes from your status as an Admin. As you admit goading St Anselm into edit warring maybe it's time you took a step back, some deep breaths, and came back later when you're a little calmer? DuncanHill (talk) 10:42, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Andrevan said "If you and your sock/meatpuppets keep this up I will have no choice but to pursue other means. Yes that is a threat - a threat to engage in the mechanisms which enforce policies like those quoted above." "The mechanisms to enforce policies" are as said above RfCs and noticeboards. What I see here is a big lack of good faith on the part of the OP. He has also made it clear that he feels he was and should not have been edit warring - what more could he say? Both parties need to take a deep breath and move on. Dougweller (talk) 11:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• • @StAnselm: While I do understand that the statement could be interpreted as threatening admin tools in fact that is not what it meant. Because Andrevan has been actively involved in editing the article, he is involved and thus precluded from using admin tools. I hope that Andrevan takes a deep breath and approaches this in a calm manner. However the statement essentially says that Andrevan has a lot of experience and knows how to navigate the dispute resolution mechanisms.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:19, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: There have been chippy threats to other editors as well. diff I asked Andrevan what hat he is wearing here diff1 and his reply was that he is here to mediate diff2 I pointed out that one person asked him to intervene on their behalf and that is not mediation. diff3 He retaliated by stripping the tags off my talk page.diff4. Andrevan has repeatedly issued talk page warnings and taken actions consistent with an admin enforcing policy. I pointed out on the article talk page that it is considered admin misconduct to advocate for a preferred version of content and wear the admin hat at the same time. diff5 The issue at hand is conduct unbecoming an admin. Ignocrates (talk) 13:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Novak Djokovic

Sourced information (quote from Srdjan Djokovic) was added on Novak Djokovic page about the ancestry of his mother. Soundwaweserb is constantly reverting this sourced information claiming to be a nationalist provocation altough he himself made several nationalist statments on my talk page while refusing to accept the provided source-quote. Please advise. Thank you. With regards,--SadarMoritz (talk) 13:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Such information is not a place on the page! That is incorrect information, a newspaper Kurir not a relevant source. I'd like to stop the attacks on nationalists Wikipedia. Please, do not let this behavior of the user SadarMoritz. Thank you. With regards.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Soundwaweserb, could you explain why you think this newspaper is not a reliable source? (I assume you mean "reliable" when you say "relevant"?) Generally newspapers are considered reliable sources, but there are specific exceptions; can you give clear reasons why this specific newspaper is not reliable? SadarMoritz, I'd like to ask why you believe his mother's ancestry is important. This especially since our policy regarding living persons is fairly clear that we should avoid personal details like ancestry, birthdates, sexual orientation, politics, or religion unless the person himself or herself makes them public. This especially when this information is not related to the individual's notability. We don't need to know his ancestry; he's not the Crown Prince of a monarchy where his ancestry actually affects his notability. --NellieBly (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Because newspapers Kurir is frivolous, tabloid without coverage and in Serbia they are not taken seriously, like Politika or Danas. Especially since this particular information is incorrect, never confirmed, he is not a president or a monarch to his perceived origins. He plays tennis and it has no place on the page. Please do not let the problematic users from Croatian Wikipedia to enter incorrect information.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 15:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Editor ignoring repeated requests

The editor User talk:D47817 consistently ignores my requests to stop reverting formatting changes made to the article DB Schenker Rail (UK) - requests made on the users talk page, and on the article talk page.

There actions are counterproductive - essentially the last 2 or more days I've had to clean up after unneccessary edits to the named article, all of which were reversions to work I had done. Although the editor makes useful contributions, they are ignoring my requests to "play nice" with other peoples work.

Also possible sockpupptettry - the editor keeps reverting to a non standard reference form that ignores the proper title , and reverting to a category formatting that ignores guidelines:

User talk:D47817 A B

User:Bbjet A B

The edits are similar, and the form of replacement is identical. Both editors were requested by me repeated times to stop various counterproductive actions - requests which were ignored.Prof.Haddock (talk) 15:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Same user is now edit warring - on the point of citation titles eg - the editor is replacing the obvious page title in the title field, with an abstract of the page contents. Prof.Haddock (talk) 15:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Prof.Haddock is getting upset when I replace a dead link with a live one that is not in his/her preferred format. I consider the formatting of cites secondary to including the cites in the first place. Yes some of my posts may inadvertently have overridden his or others work, yet some of his posts have done likewise to my posts. Overall I have taken the number of cites from 60 to 100 on the DB Schenker Rail (UK) article and it appears the editor is unwilling to accept some of these changes. D47817 (talk) 15:25, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't reverted any of your positive additions. The insinuation that I am acting in bad faith just more low level abuse. The issue is that you keep reverting my work, and have ignored repeated requests not to do so.Prof.Haddock (talk) 15:30, 15 September 2014 (UTC)