Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
Start a new discussion

IBAN violation by Catflap08

NOTE that this thread was copied from AN as this seems to be the more appropriate place. JZCL 07:44, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Catflap08 (talk · contribs) and I were made subject to an IBAN a few weeks ago. Last week, Catflap08 showed up suddenly in a discussion I had initiated, and commented on some of my edits; I reported this, but it was borderline and there was no result.

A few weeks before the ban, I had removed some references from the Kokuchūkai article that didn't back up the statements that were sourced to them, and I also (a little before the IBAN) removed an inappropriate primary source and the claim that was referenced to it.[1][2] Catflap08 the other day manually reverted these edits. If suddenly showing up and commenting on an edit I made (he did that again too, BTW) is not a violation, then surely reverting my edits is? He also admitted both then and now on the talk page that the refs he re-added are unrelated to the article content, so please don't respond by saying that even though it does violate the IBAN it's a harmless improvement to the article.

Sturmgewehr88 (talk · contribs) reverted the edits as an IBAN violation that was also in violation of NOR and V, Catflap08 re-reverted, while copy-pasting text that I had previously removed and attaching a source I added to the article that (1) he clearly hasn't read and (2) doesn't back up the claim.

Could someone please tell him that he is not allowed revert my edits under the terms of the IBAN?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:08, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

He also stated on the talk page before the IBAN that he was aware of my edits and was opposed to them, meaning he waited until the IBAN was in place to revert me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:38, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

He has since copy-pasted the article (Including signed comments by me) into his userspace and started drafting further additions and subtractions to make the page look more like it did before I edited it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:54, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Catflap is continuing to devote his on-wiki activity exclusively to undoing my work on the Kokuchukai article, including large chunks of text either not relevant to the subject or not directly supported by the sources. He has also altered a sourced statement to say something that the source doesn't say, apparently solely in order to fan the flames (the point is one he argued with me for months, ultimately leading to the IBAN). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:55, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

So, if you add or removed anything, ever, to the article, at any time, you think its a violation of the IBAN to have it undone? Even weeks or months later? AlbinoFerret 14:32, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

He expressed opposition to my edits, waited until an IBAN was in place so that I couldn't effectively defend them, knowingly reverted these edits, and continued to do so even after told to stop. How is this remotely appropriate? Am I allowed go around reverting his edits as well? or is there a time limit, and I'm allowed go around reverting his edits as long as they were made more than a month ago? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:47, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

I think that an admin needs to clarify about the time. You might also seek clarification from the admin that enacted the IBAN. AlbinoFerret 18:17, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

When the violation took place I went straight to the enacting admin, and was told he didn't want to deal with it, so I should go to AN -- I got no response whatsoever on AN, so the thread was moved here. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

• WP:IBAN states "if editor X is banned from interacting with editor Y, editor X is not permitted to ... undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means)". It makes no mention of time frames. So AFAICS Catflap08's reverts are indeed in violation of the IBAN. I'd welcome more input by other uninvolved administrators. Black Kite (talk) 21:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

• I had always understood it to refer to reverting edits made after the institution of the IBan. If not, then on any article whatsoever, each party would have to research to find out if the other party had ever edited there, then read all of the edits they made to see what material changed, then find out if any intervening changes to the material were made by any other editors, and only then, once all those hurdles had been cleared, could the first party alter the material. I think that's extremely unreasonable, and much too broad a reading of the intent of the IBan. BMK (talk) 22:51, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

@BMK: It's pretty hard to revert a particular user's edits without knowing who that user is. You are referring to accidental good-faith new edits to the article, not reversions. The problem here is that I made specific edits to the article before the IBAN (not long before, mind you) and now Catflap is directly reverting those edits. And it's all academic, since Catflap directly stated that he knew which edits were mine, and continued reverting after being told that his edits were reverts of mine. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

The statement " Catflap directly stated that he knew which edits were mine" and the diff do not match. There is no admitting that he know what edits are yours, the diff says they dont want to discuss your edits or statements because they are problematic. That is not the same, its a generalized statement. I also agree with BMK that researching every edit in the past is unreasonable, even new edits after a week to a month depending on how active the article is. After say 50 to 100 edits or so unless you have one hell of a memory its going to take a lot of research.AlbinoFerret 03:20, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

He stated that he had looked at the edits and considered them problematic -- how on earth could have done this without also knowing the edits were mine? He even called them "Hijiri`s ... edits"! Also, given that in the last sixteen months the only two users who have substantially edited the article are Catflap08 and myself, and the fact that the conflict on that article (and over whether the Miyazawa Kenji article should call him a nationalist) was a major reason contributing to the original call for an IBAN, your "50 to 100 edits or so" comment is pretty irrelevant. Also, how do you explain his joining in a discussion I started, a discussion of an edit I made? And the fact that he mostly stopped editing while the last AN thread on his IBAN violations was open, waited until it was archived without result, and when he came back he immediately started reverting me again? It's inconceivable that all of these were just good-faith mistakes. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Here is the statement he made " I`d rather not comment too much on Hijiri`s comments or edits as I personally find them to be problematic." Nowhere in there is a statement about specific edits. As to your thoughts on the 50 to 100 edits, you do realize that if there is no limit in the past, that you are going to have to look at every edit ever made before changing anything to make sure your edit does not revert something he did right? So if he changed a few words here or there, your going to have to check if a word you want change was changed by him in the entire history of the article. AlbinoFerret 12:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

He was answering another user's (User:Snow Rise's) query about the specific edits he would later revert. He referred to these as "Hijiri's edits". What is the question here? Additionally, Catflap does not need to go back and look at every single edit to know that the edit he is specifically going out of his way to revert is mine. I do not need to be concerned about being accused of violating the IBAN in the same way because (as much as it would benefit the project as a whole) I am not interested in going around tracking down Catflap's old edits and reverting them. And in this case the edits aren't even that old! Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Umm... hello? Feels like I'm shouting into an echo chamber here. User:Sturmgewehr88 pointed out to Catflap on the article talk page that his edits constitute IBAN violations and User:Black Kite agreed but asked for more objective input. So far the only two other users who have weighed in have either (a) apparently not recognized that Catflap went back through my edits to the article in order to revert specific portions of them and reinsert the exact text that was there previously (and therefore couldn't possibly have done so by accident) or (b) failed to recognize that Catflap specifically acknowledged that the edits he was reverting were made by me before he reverted them, and was also directly reminded that they were mine afterward, before re-reverting them (and therefore couldn't possibly have done so by accident).

Anyone else wanna weigh in? Maybe warn or block Catflap? Revert to the better version of the article before the IBAN-violating/OR-infested edits? If this thread gets archived with no result I'm just going to have to un-archive or reopen it, so...

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:56, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Non-admin comment Umm, no, you're not "going to have to" do anything of the sort. You have brought something here that you felt was an incident requiring community (in general) and administrator (in particular) attention. During the three days since there has been all sorts of activity on this board, so you can be sure that administrators and editors within the community have looked over your issue and have, fairly clearly, decided that currently it does not warrant their attention. You may not be happy with that decision by the community; it may be a poor outcome for you; it may even be a poor outcome for the community; none of those points, however, mean that you "have to un-archive or reopen it". That would, in mine opinion, be close to a disruptive action, ignoring the consensus that you don't agree with.

I suggest you scrupulously adhere to the IBAN, work with others in the community to improve the article and as many others of the two million (or whatever it is now that there are) that you feel like and wait. If this Catflap is as evil and Machiavellian as you seem to think, we'll discover it soon enough; if not, yay! Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 08:48, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:LindsayH: Please read the note at the top: I did not post anything here three days ago. I posted this thread on the much less active WP:AN (on the specific advice of an admin). In several days of the thread being open there was not a single response (presumably because that page is not as active as this one); I posted more as Catflap continued violating the IBAN again and again. After several days, confused, I asked what had happened and if I had misplaced the thread, and apparently I had. Another user moved it here for me, but I suspect that by then it had already passed the IDHT threshold. That, presumably, is what confused both BMK and AlbinoFerret, and AlbinoFerret's further questioning and my answering pushed this thread even further into IDHT territory. So far one admin has unambiguously stated that they believe the IBAN was violated and some others have found holes in my complaint that I have readily filled for them. Prematurely-archived threads do not count as "consensus to do nothing", and de-archiving or reopening them is quite common practice. Last time I had an IBAN discussion about 20 people agreed the other user had violated it and deserved to be further-sanctioned (and my IBAN should be lifted); the thread was prematurely archived, so I posted on the talk page of one of the admins who had posted and they de-archived it for me.

I would be happy to continue to comply by the mutual IBAN -- I have been doing so for close to a month now. But by letting this direct reverting of my edits fly you are now telling me that you think the IBAN is not mutual, because Catflap08 is allowed directly revert my edits and I am apparently still not allowed revert his. It's not "Machiavellian", though -- Catflap has been quite flagrant about his reverting my edits, even continuing to do so after being told by a third party to stop. I suspect what happened was that two weeks into the IBAN he showed up and joined a talk page discussion I had started, and evaded sanctions for that, which emboldened him do go and directly revert my edits.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:52, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I don't believe I was "confused" about anything, as I read both AN and AN/I. BMK (talk) 15:40, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I can echo your post BMK, I am not confused and also watch AN/I and AN. AlbinoFerret 18:04, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh geez, who could have ever predicted this? I'll get to agreeing adamantly with those who have already responded here with regard to how inappropriately Hijiri approaches these situations and to detailing how the "boy who cried wolf" effect might explain, at least in part, why he is not getting the response he is seeking. But let's start by recognizing another fact: the reignition of this drama represents a failure on the part of those of us who took part in the last discussion. This IBAN was never going to work; both editors work in overlapping and fairly niche areas with little buffer between them and neither showed the least suggestion of backing down from any of the content disputes between them that were the proximal cause of the ANI discussion that lead to the IBAN. Add into that battleground attitudes and personalization (to some extent two way but increasingly represented by the inability of one party to just let things go) and its clear this approach was nothing a but guarantee to rubber-band this issue back at the noticeboards in short order. It's pretty silly to recommend as a resolution to an issue that the two incolved editors simply disengage from one-another when the matter in question was that they could not be disengaged. The truth is, after years of watching it in operation, I'm increasingly dubious that an IBAN ever does anything but prolong disruption connected to grudges between editors, but it certainly needs to stop being used in cases like this where the deeper issues are not addressed first.

Now, as to your complaints, Hijiri, I can form that what was suggested to you by others here is true with regard to at least one would-be contributor; I just couldn't see this thread or the matters you raised as urgent, or even necessarily and community oversight, being all to familiar with the context and particulars of your feud. I wouldn't be surprised if other editors saw the names involved and just skipped over it, and I certainly wouldn't blame them. As it happens, I saw both new threads well before you pinged me, and was about to reply several times before being distracted by other issues (on-wiki and off) that undeniably warranted the attention more. It's not the first time you've pinged me into this feud and it's surprising each time because I've been increasingly clear with each iteration of the battle that I view your behaviours to generally be more problematic and disruptive than those of Catflap, especially with regard to seeking out the fight, but at this point I take these actions as part and parcel of your WP:IDHT way of selectively reading what others have tried to tell you about this contest of wills. I've seen so much of it with regard to how your view (and represent) the comments of others who have tried to separate you two that when I see you say something like "Last time I had an IBAN discussion about 20 people agreed the other user had violated it and deserved to be further-sanctioned (and my IBAN should be lifted)" I don't for a second suspect that I am getting the full story there. Because I have seen you distort the positions of other commenting parties before (my own included) to suggest thorough support for yourself where it did not really exist or was limited to just a minor point. And for the record, I'm not even saying that you're lying; in most of these cases, you seem to genuinely believe the spin that you put on these events and the perspectives of those involved, which is part of what is making this ongoing battle such a particularly intractable mess.

Whether Catflap pushed the edges of the IBAN with any edit, I don't know, though I do know that the particular edits I looked at did not violate it outright. Contrary to your assumption, the IBAN does not guarantee that he can not edit that page in a direction that is contrary to your vision for it, nor is the reverse Otherwise IBANs could be gamed to try to force preferred version. All of which is exactly why this IBAN was such a foolish notion in this case, because clearly neither of you wanted to give way on this article and related content, so it was inevitable that you would be lobbing broadsides at eachother in one manner or another. For this reason I'm going to propose that the IBAN be dissolved, that we ask you two gentlemen one last time to try to find a reasonable compromise path forward and, if you fail and the issue becomes disruptive between the two of you, we look at which of the two of you is more deserving of a page or topic ban regarding this subject the two of you cannot let go. Whether or not I am successful in convincing others to follow that approach though, I highly recommend that you let this issue go for now, before you get smacked with the biggest WP:BOOMERANG this side of the Blue Mountains. Because the situation doesn't even warrant discussion of whether you or anyone thinks Catflap is Machiavellian; he wouldn't nearly need to be when all he has to do is what he's doing now -- hang back, say absolutely nothing and let you torpedo yourself. But look on the bright side here, you've got at least one detailed response now. Snow ^{let's rap} 04:28, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Okay, all but one user (the only admin, and the only one who didn't previously express support for Catflap's position, I might add) seems to here be ignoring the fact that I presented specific evidence that Catflap reverted my edits after explicitly acknowledging that they were my edits. It has nothing to do with "editing the article away from ny preferred vision". The fact that a single previous AN thread (not two) got archived with no result after one user agreed that Catflap had violated the IBAN and one disagreed is not evidence that I have been "crying wolf"; if anything, it is evidence that the latest, more serious violation should be taken more seriously. Why is Catflap allowed revert my edits but not I his? Can someone please explain to me how this IBAN is mutual if one of the parties is refusing to abide by it? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

An IBAN does not just mean that who ever got the last version in before it went into effect can therefore force their preferred version from that date forward. Even if that were the case, it's clear (as could be seen at the time) that neither of you were really going to back down on this issue. Those are two of several reasons why it was ill-advised to have instituted an IBAN without those issues first being resolved and it locked us with certainty into a new thread AN thread in short order. As to the "crying wolf" comment, you seem to have misread it -- I was referencing your past battleground behaviour in these matters as the reason why you were not getting the overwhelming flood of interest in this drama you clearly think it deserves. Despite the repeated direct efforts of (and warnings from) both an admin ([3][4]) and the community broadly about following Catflap from page to page looking to re-engage with him and other generally tendentious, combative, and disruptive behaviours, you persisted well past any sense -- and often while citing the "shared" perspectives of other editors who were themselves surprised to learn of their unwavering support for you. Frankly, you more than earned the block Silk Tork had implied was forthcoming if you didn't back off, and if it had been dolled out, likely we'd never have gotten as far as the poorly-considered IBAN.

Look, I'm not even sure how much I disagree with you that Catflap violated at least the spirit of the IBAN and should be called out for it. But these are your chickens come home to roost, my friend. You courted sanction and then only avoided a block for continuing down the path you were on (which you surely would have, as you always have on this issue and with regard to this "opponent") because we instead got steered into this IBAN which was certain to impose itself on the rest of us as soon as you two (inevitably) refused to edit in collaborative fashion on one of the issues neither of you can just let go of. And then you want to cry foul when enough editors don't flock to this nonsense and immediately agree that he should be blocked? Well, I can only say that I think you need to look at this situation again from the perspective of the community volunteers here and in the context of your past behaviour. Snow ^{let's rap} 09:58, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Umm... I don't think "an IBAN just means that who ever got the last version in before it went into effect can therefore force their preferred version from that date forward": I think that WP:IBAN means what it says, that Catflap08 is "not permitted to ... undo [my] edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means)". I provided clear and concise evidence that several of my edits (specifically, removing the Stone article as a reference for a piece of information she actually contradicts and stating in the text that Miyazawa Kenji rejected the group's nationalism) were directly undone by Catflap (here and here, respectively). The other edits are all problematic in their own ways, for reasons I painstakingly explained to Catflap on the talk page months ago, and completely undermine my earlier hard work on the article (hard work which you earlier praised and for which Catflap earlier expressed a dislike), but those problems are secondary to the direct reverts. So far every user who has checked these diffs has acknowledged that they are reverts and constitute an IBAN violation by Catflap. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Alright then. Catflap08, apparently you violated the iBan between you and Hijiri. Don't do it again. Drmies (talk) 15:37, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not going to go into this circular argument with you for a third time. Several community members here have already explained why the IBAN can't just be a rubber stamp on the last version of an article put forth in a dispute before an IBAN, and I explained that is exactly why the IBAN should not have been insittuted in the first place and have suggested a path forward to resolving that conflict of principles (which you have since !voted in favour of). But even if we take it for granted that Catflap violated the IBAN, you are still missing the larger picture that others have tried at length to impart to you. Because you can argue (and even be completely right about) the technicalities of a particular action taken by another contributor you are in conflict with, but if you bring the matter to AN/ANI, the community members here are going to look at the whole context of the dispute, consider how the IBAN came into effect and why it was deemed necessary and finally ask whether the contributions of either of you are presently worth the disruption you create between you.

Frankly, the truth is that you owe Catflap a huge debt of gratitude for proposing the IBAN. Because without it, you would certainly have been blocked for blatantly ignoring the warnings of an admin (and the recommendation of the community broadly in multiple spaces) to back away from him. If all he wanted was truly to win that content dispute, then he went about it in about the worst way possible, since all he had to do was wait for you to recieve your well-earned block, revert you, and then have the procedural high-ground once/if you were unblocked. Instead, he pushed for an IBAN, seeming to genuinely want to just be through with you. And yeah, you know what, having made that decision and set us down that path, he should have lived with the consequences and not pushed for his version in that article again, if it meant undercutting your edits. And the editors here will probably find cause to see disruption in those actions. But his poor behaviour does not absolve you of your past disruption and WP:BATTLEGROUND outlook that helped set all of this in motion, especially if you are going to keep insisting we put this situation under a microscope...

You keep re-presenting the technicalities of Catflaps edits and whether the constitute reversion, putting up the same evidence again and again and taking any lack of resulting and immediate support for you as evidence that other editors here are either "confused" about these points or that they just aren't looking closely enough. But I assure you, a greater number of us have looked through the edits you keep reposting than you seem to think. Actually, it was while looking through those edits that something occurred to me, something concerning the fact that that you now have explicitly stated that you think it is unacceptable for Catflap to revert your edits on articles with content contested between the two of you. I remembered how you opposed the IBAN at first but then suddenly embraced it, and I can't now help but suspect that the reason is that you recognized that (at least by your own interpretation of the rules) that your version of the disputed content would be the one that would exist in perpetuum. So it seems to me that you believed in the IBAN to the extent that it protected your edits, but you didn't believe in the overall goal it was meant to serve (reducing disruption) enough to abide by the spirit of the community decision and just let this one go past.

But now we have an opportunity to take things in a different direction. If we get a consensus to dissolve the IBAN, and if both you and Catflap still view me as neutral in your content dispute, I will volunteer some time on that talk page to provide a third opinion and hopefully try to bridge the differences of perspective between you two over the sources, to find a compromise solution that is also consistent with policy. If you don't like me in that role, then I recommend WP:DRN, or you could try another RfC. But whatever you do, you're going to have to find a radically different way to approach one-another in the spaces you share in common. Because the only sanctions we have left are blocks and article/topic bans, which I don't think anyone is going to hesitate to consider next time these issues come back here and one or both of you has not been mindful of the amount of rope you have left. And aside from the possible consequences of failing to finally get along and collaborate, it's worth noting that it is just so much easier to reach a middle ground solution that to conduct a months-long campaign of policy battles that draw in and consume the editorial/project energy of your fellow contributors. And yet in addition to being easier, the collaborative approach is also vastly more rewarding.

Please consider what I am saying to you. Having taken an absurd number of paragraphs to make one last effort at making these points explicit, and to draw a distinction between A) what you view as unimpeachable evidence that Catflap is in the wrong in this one instance and B) the whole context that the community will consider when trying to decide what is the most practical and realistic way to stop this disruption once and for all, I know have exceeded the amount of time I was determined not to expend here by a factor of about twenty. But we can all consider our energy well-spent if, when the IBAN is dissolved (if indeed it is), both sides come to the table prepared to compromise and embrace the kind of collaborative approach that serves the encyclopedia best. You two are not meant to be opponents -- you're partners in a project here, and partners of the rest of us, as well. Keep that in mind and you will hopefully never have to worry about the word "ban" coming up in the course of your editorial work again. Snow ^{let's rap} 06:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment uninvolved non-admin here. We as a community put this iBan in place, whatever its merits or costs. If we wish to dissolve it and try another solution fine but it was in place. I'm also ignoring how things have been reported and tones taken. The brute facts are Catflap knew there was an IBAN in place and it is pretty clear Catflap violated it while it was in place. As such not restricting catflap, however temporarily (I would suggest a broad tBan for a fortnight) for violating his IBAN just weakens any and all existing IBANs. SPACKlick (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: dissolve IBAN, find a more realistic solution to this conflict

See my last posting in this thread (as well as the previous comments diffed at its beginning) to see exactly why an IBAN can accomplish nothing here except to recycle this feud through the noticeboards endlessly. Neither editor has every voiced any interest in letting go of the content issues which brought about the acrimony between them and there is insufficient third party oversight (or even involvement) in the affected pages to keep them from stumbling over eachother's edits and directly butting heads immediately. This was an ill-thought-out community solution (to which I admittedly took part, despite reservations) that needs to be recognized as untenable here, given the circumstances and attitudes of the involved parties. As a first step to finding an actual solution to this conflict, I think the IBAN needs to be dissolved. After that, the best (if still quite underwhelming) suggestion I can give on the next course of action would be to give basic dispute resolution processes one more try. I believe WP:DRN has not yet been explored, for example. If uncivil, non-collaborative, and disruptive behaviours persists, one or both editors should be page/topic banned from the relevant articles/subjects. Snow ^{let's rap} 04:47, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Megasupport (as nom) Snow ^{let's rap} 04:47, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support First off, @Snow Rise: there is no evidence that I am trying to continue the underlying content dispute; I just don't a user with whom I am mutually IBANned reverting my edits. The only reason I initially agreed to the IBAN was because no one ever told me how hard it was to report IBAN violations. I can choose to assume that if I reverted a bunch of Catflap's edits and he reported me he would het just as poor a hearing as I have. But I have no interest in reverting Catflap's edits. So as is this is a de facto one-way IBAN, which no one agreed to.

I would, though, like to hear back from @Sturmgewehr88: and @Black Kite: first, since they appear to have taken the time to go through all the diffs and recognized that Catflap reverted me, not the other way round.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support - I honestly think Catflap violated the IBAN when he manually reverted Hijiri88's edits. If he's not going to face any consequences, then the IBAN seems pointless. The IBAN should be lifted and both editors given WP:ROPE awaiting further disruption, at which point TBANs will be in order. As an aside, @Snow Rise: I've heard of "strongest support possible" but "megasupport" is a new one :) ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 09:33, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Well I did just mean it as a one-off effort to combine humor, exasperation, and emphasis, but now I'm thinking it could be a thing; it could certainly get some mileage in this space! ;) Snow ^{let's rap} 10:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Removal of the IBAN, and may I suggest a path forward, instead placing them both under a 1RR rule. That should end edit warring at least. AlbinoFerret 07:49, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

That's the best idea I've seen since this discussion began, AF. Of course, it requires they have a third party editing the page, since otherwise they will each really only be able to add content to the page -- meaning that with an inability to remove content there is a risk of it getting glutted with large amounts of often contradictory information as each party tries to drown out the other's message. But then, my impression is that these two could use some outside perspective and a buffer for the present time anyway. Snow ^{let's rap} 08:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes they will need an outside editor, one who has some idea of the topic other than a quick read (like me). Should we start a section on it? AlbinoFerret 00:14, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Umm... could I ask if either of you know what exactly the "underlying content dispute" between me and Catflap actually is? Because as far as I am aware, the dispute is solely about whether a source should be attached to a statement it doesn't directly support; not a content dispute, but an issue of one user simply not understanding WP:V and WP:NOR. Before asserting that both Catflap and I (rather than just one of us) are incapable of talk-page discussion without an intermediary some recognition of this point would be appreciated. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

For the record, though, I'm not opposed to an intermediary. @Shii: would be great: he knows a lot about Japanese religion, is diligent with sourcing problems, and he and I have rarely agreed about stuff in the past, so there would likely be no cause to call him biased (contrary to popular opinion, I don't follow Catflap around, so I don't know if they have any kind of history of interaction, though). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:52, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I am familiar with both Catflap and Hijiri and consider them both valuable to the project, although that hardly means I agree with them a lot. I also hate IBANs and would happily mediate if some kind of arbitration will take place. But I'm not going to be online 24/7 these days. Shii (tock) 10:13, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Neutral I am not willing to deal with editors who use insulting language (no matter if they strike it afterwards or not), (to my mind) bad faith edits on articles I concentrate on, childlike comments within their edits on articles about my home. I do hear that the ANI is an IBAN free zone. I also do not want to deal with editors who wish that the “opponent” to be blocked from en.Wikipedia. If an IBAN is that easily lifted then it will speak for itself. I would also welcome if admins do have a clue on the matters they get involved in and decide on.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2015 (UTC) If an editor finds it to be necessary to underline his/her edits with swear words and insults (strike or not) on a regular basis I do not find it to be a need to seek any consensus but to rather ignore such an individual. And for the record I am not spending my time here to be called names – not having that, not in real life nor in here. --Catflap08 (talk) 19:07, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Catflap, you had a golden ticket to keep Hijiri out of your life in the form of the IBAN (which we should obviously have never considered granting you, given your obvious lack of intention to avoid the other party). You chose to violate the sanction and the reason we are now prepared to do away with it is because it is never going to work (and never could have) if you two were not prepared to abide by it. And let's be clear, you are the party which violated it, not Hijiri. You knew (or certainly should have known) that this would cause him to fly here immediately to impose this onerous issue on the community at large once again, just weeks after we last discussed it. And frankly, the only reason you haven't been blocked already for this violation is that the editors here recognized Hijiri's own long-standing contributions to this feud. But for you complain about the weakness of our dedication to an IBAN which is causing problems rather than solving them is incredibly obtuse, since the only alternative was that follow protocol and block you for the violation immediately. Regardless, you cannot continue to contribute on the contested articles unless you are willing to collaborate with all parties there, including Hijiri.

Frankly, I've seen enough of the approaches of both you and Hijiri to this problem, and of your mutual lack of will to reach for a collaborative approach that might keep us from having to recycle this discussion endlessly. I was prepared to propose the only solution that now seems plausible to me, given the intractability and behavioural issues of both of you on the articles you contest between you, namely that you both be page banned from both Kokuchūkai and Kenji Miyazawa. But now I find that proposal awkward and ill-suited, since Hijiri has said he would be willing to consider mediation and a third (apparently neutral) editor who has worked with you both has agreed to try to facilitate that attempt. I have a hard time proposing that Hijiri be page banned before that effort, since there was a specific call for him to do so. But if you refuse to mediate, and insist continuing to edit war in violation of an IBAN you asked for, then maybe the solution is to page ban just you. Or page ban one of each of you from each of the two articles in question. In any event, if you won't come to table, I'm afraid one of these options will have to be implemented, since you cannot just refuse to work with other editors on an article you wish to remain active on. Snow ^{let's rap} 21:45, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed with the last sentence especially. Shii (tock) 02:31, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Snow Rise: Could you explain what you mean whwn you say I have been unwilling to edit collaboratively on those two articles? On the Kokuchukai article, I have been struggling for months to try to figure out what Catflap's problem with my edits is, so I could work to accommodate him and edit collaboratively, and have been met with nothing but misquoting of sources and accusations of personal attacks and tendentious editing.

As for the Kenji article -- clearly you have not even looked at that talk page or thr edit history of the article. Just look at Talk:Kenji Miyazawa/redraft to see me, User:Nishidani and User:Icuc2 (two users with whom I rarely agree all that much when it comes to article content) to fix the problems that have plagued the article for years.

I would ask that you kindly refrain from any further assertions that I have trouble editing collaboratively, especially since further down this pahe you are currently still supporting a page ban against me proposed by a user who does refuse to edit collaboratively.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Woah. Just realized my above comment sounds unusually petty/grouchy given that two users have finally offered to help put this problem to rest and I finally got recognition that the IBAN was violated and not by me. I had not read SR's comment as closely as perhaps I might have, and I was perhaps also frustrated by the still bubbling-up shitstorm downstairs (hopefully the Wikipedia equivalent of Mack from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. will be around to talk some sense into that debate soon...). Anyway, I apologize for the above gruffness. I am deeply appreciative of finally getting recognition that I was not the one violating the IBAN. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:23, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

First of all Snow Rise, correct me if I am wrong and DO NOT take this personal, but I find it hard to see that any sort of consensus has been made here. I am unwilling to deal with an individual who seems to find no other way to underline his case without an abusive language and to go hysteric. I have found valuable references to have been deleted and decided to reinsert them into the article in question. Other editors seem to have meanwhile taken up the job to bring the article up to agreed standards - thanks for that. A job that I would have liked to have seen being done by admins. I have been called names in this process just because I hinted and referenced the somewhat dubious religious/political background of some editor’s favourite poet. The editor in question then decided to edit the article which I created (and delete references) on the poets religious affiliation. In due process I have been called names by the editor in question, I have been insulted, smearing comments about me while editing an article on my home town and this is a reoccurring pattern by the editor in question on other issues even without me being involved. As soon as the ice gets thin he calls for his cronies including Sturmgewehr88 (being banned from a number Wikipedias for obvious reasons – in many European countries just like Germany the number 88 is a code for a fascist background – based on edits). So go ahead IBAN, TBAN or block me from en.Wikipedia if you like. I did my utmost best to supply Information on Nichiren Buddhism in a non-partisan way, in doing so it might hurt some faithful individuals and this involves a conflict. For some admins there is a piece of advice – get involved on issues you are familiar with otherwise stay out. There is no need to show me the exit sign anymore as the project seems to be preoccupied with many issues but referenced facts – I cannot and am unwilling to deal with some editors mental issues. --Catflap08 (talk) 18:30, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Does anyone find it concerning that despite posting the above "neutral opposition" (for want of a better term) and despite the IBAN not being officially dissolved yet, Catflap08 requested further down this page that I be "topic-banned" from ... Japan-related articles, I guess, which for me is the same as a siteban. Is this appropriate behaviour? Does anyone seriously think Catflap08 is genuinely willing to engage in constructive discussion, even with a mediator? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:47, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• (signing to delay archiving since this thread has an active close request via WP:ANRFC.) Steel1943 (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Rather than giving up on the IBAN I'd like to see it enforced. The entire point of this sort of restriction is that when its violated, violaters have further rights removed so they learn not to violate. Giving up at the first hurdle is pointless. SPACKlick (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose SPACKlick has summed it up very nicely. Blackmane (talk) 02:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

History of the WWE - Long-running edit war

• User:RealDealBillMcNeal and User:Rebelrick123 have been engaged in an on-and-off edit war on this article since February. The general gist of it seems to centre around the names of the "eras" involved. The first revert in this long-running sequence came on the 6th of February, where RealDealBillMcNeal (henceforth referred to as RDBMN) reverted a bunch of edits from Rebelrick123 (henceforth referred to as R123) with the edit summary of "Removing waffle." This edit war lasted another two days before the page was fully protected for a week. Since this rime, R123 has been blocked thrice for edit warring and personal attacks, whilst RDBMN has been blocked twice for exactly this kind of behaviour (both times ending up with their talk page access revoked). It's hard to say who is "right" in terms of the content war; both editors have had people intervening on their behalf as more than just reverting to the status quo (the latter is all I've done), and I've seen sources support both sides of the story. But it's not just the edit warring which has been problematic, it's been the language and attitudes used by both editors - be it in edit summaries, talk page threads, or user talk page posts:

• R123: There's no Reality Era but Authority Era? Lol keep acting like you run this page, man., "Quit putting BS paragraph titles:", Must've been a good few weeks of this false nonsense., "RealDealBillMcNeill is a fool."
• RDBMN: Removing steaming pile of unnotable garbage and unsourced shite, Banned LOL, "who are you?", "Imagine defending a professional paedophile-enabler?"

• I think there's little question that RDBMN's attitude has been worse, but then again, the vast majority of R123's edits were done with either no edit summary at all, or were just "undid revision X by editor Y", which is no more helpful. It's also worth noting that, since February, R123 has barely touched any article that is not the History of the WWE article; and most of those, if not all of them, were to related articles (ie articles on wrestlers). RDBMN also has a history of being incredibly combative on other articles; four previous blocks for 3RR violations are a pretty good sign of that.
• Just a further note to say that R123 has reverted twice more since the start of this ANI thread, and probably should face an immediate block on that basis. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:49, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposed solutions

• I think we have to look at a few potential solutions to this problem. Short-term blocks don't work, and that's been proven. It's also been proven that neither editor is going to stop and discuss at this point. I can think of three solutions:

1. Both RealDealBillMcNeal and Rebelrick123 are indefinitely topic banned from editing the History of the WWE article, due to the long-term edit war.
2. Both RealDealBillMcNeal and Rebelrick123 are indefinitely banned from interacting with each other, under the standard terms of an IBAN.
3. Both RealDealBillMcNeal and Rebelrick123 are indefinitely blocked from editing Wikipedia, for persistent battleground conduct, including long-term edit-warring and severe incivility.

• I would support all three of these solutions in equal amounts, and personally think that option 2 should be enforced if option 1 is. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:33, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
• Definitely support #1 – an article ban seems like it's definitely necessary in this case. No opinion (yet) on #2 and #3... --IJBall (talk) 19:40, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Imagine banning somebody from editing a page for trying to stop continuously disruptive editing that has marred this article for a long long time. Great patter. RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 20:29, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

• You've edit warred so heavily on it that you've been blocked twice for your actions on the article, and both times your behaviour was so out of line that you found your talk page access getting revoked. Neither of you is any better than the other. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:16, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support #1 and #2 (in the hope that we won't need #3). Neither party has clean hands in this dispute. Miniapolis 22:11, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support #1 and #2(uninvolved non admin) The behaviour of both surely warrants the actions. AlbinoFerret 22:35, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support #3 I have only had the honour of interacting with RealDealBillMcNeal and the behaviour extends beyond the article being discussed here, one I've never edited. The trash-talk was unacceptable. Treating Wikipedia as a battleground is not particularly enjoyable. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support #1 and #2 as option 1, but would not oppose #3 if the consensus became the two should be indef'd. Blackmane (talk) 02:08, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support #1. The two editors have only banged heads in the context of this article, so if they stay away from it it should make #2 moot. #3 is overkill. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• The reasoning behind #3; this is far from the first article that RDBMN has been problematic at, or their first edit-warring block; they have four priors, as well as a long history of extremely uncollaborative behaviour, and R123 is, at this point, essentially an SPA. Perhaps it could be argued to be overkill for R123, but RDBMN's history more than deserves such a sanction IMO. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:07, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support RealDealBillMcNeal being topic banned from editing the History of the WWE for a time period such as a year. Rebelrick123 should be kept under surveillance. GregKaye 04:49, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• Question: how can you support a topic ban for one party and not the other? Both have been equally as bad as the other, regardless of who is "right" content-wise. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:58, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

• Bumping this to ensure it's not archived without action. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 20:20, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support all three. The first is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be written out, but it's better to make formal. The second is also pretty obvious, as it will prevent potential revenge wikis talking from either side. As for the third, well, it's pretty heavy, but this is out the first time RDBM has shown himself to be a guy who tried to bully his way around. He needs to take a hike and not let the door hit him on the way out. R123 I'm less concerned needs a full ban, but as both sides display equally atrocious behavior here, they should get the same result. oknazevad (talk) 13:55, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support Option 1 and 2 but only after some instances I think that option 2 should be used first, if they see that they have been given enough leash, and start making trouble again Then option 1 would apply, I would reccomend that we use option 3 only if they start using socks or meatpuppets or preforming ban evasion. Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 19:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support 1, 1&2 or 3 Oppose 2 on its own. If we enact an IBAN then the first of these two to post edits and post in talk page discussions owns the page. I think a long term 1 should be enacted at first. 2 should be used if this spills over to other pages, 3 should be used if 2 is broken. SPACKlick (talk) 23:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Kheider Adding stuff to WP:Notability (astronomical objects) to point to at AfD

Kheider has been attempting to go against consensus in AfDs for minor astronomical object articles. After several AfDs failed to go his way, he made these changes to WP:Notability (astronomical objects) So that he could point to them at this AfD: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/1775_Zimmerwald in this edit here, less than 30 minutes after adding the 'support' to the notability guideline. There is no consensus on the talk page and little discussion.

Kheider also has been attempting to characterize Boleyn's attempts to cleanup the articles that failed notability as "genocide" at multiple AfDs: 1 2 3

Edit(Added this numbered list for clarity and organization: 18:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)) In summary, these are the policies that have been alleged that Kheider violated:

1. by me: Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Substantive_changes "Editing a policy to support your own argument in an active discussion may be seen as Gaming the system, especially if you do not disclose your involvement in the argument when making the edits."
2. by me: Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack? "Comparing editors to Nazis, dictators, or other infamous persons. (See also Godwin's law.)"
3. by Boleyn(evidence included below): Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Others'_comments "Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page."

(end list and edit ― Padenton|✉   18:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC))

At 20:45, 17 May 2015 Padenton reverted all 9 of my good faith edits to NASTRO and then called my edits disgusting and assumed bad faith on the NASTRO talk page. Then at 23:53, 17 May 2015 Padenton posted on my talk page accusing me of edit warring. I then explained my edits on the NASTRO talk page at 00:25, 18 May 2015. Then at 00:39, 18 May 2015 Padenton further harassed me by posting this unnecessary (assuming bad faith) ANI complaint. On the NASTRO talk page, Padenton replied back suggesting that the Astro wikiproject is not a proper place to discuss Astro guidelines even though NASTRO itself suggests taking such discussions to the project page. None of my edits to NASTRO were done in bad faith and the ongoing harassment and character assassinations by Padenton need to stop as he has failed to demonstrate how any of my NASTRO edits resulted in a change of outcome for any AfD. Boleyn, was aware by May 6th that "I am working on NASTRO as we speak". -- Kheider (talk) 15:40, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Also Notifying users who have been involved in the deletion discussions: Praemonitus, David Eppstein, Boleyn ― Padenton|✉   00:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Wow, you like forumshopping. Take it to Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(astronomical_objects)#Changes_without_consensus. I would say you are the one out of line that can not support reverting my edits. -- Kheider (talk) 00:44, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

If you look at the 29 April 2015 version of NASTRO, it says to "redirect" asteroid stubs, not delete them. If you were paying much attention you would also note that I am not supporting many asteroids in the AfDs. But I do have a right to express opinions and hope that users do not to throw out the baby with the bath water just because an article was created by a bot. -- Kheider (talk) 00:49, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

"it says to "redirect" asteroid stubs, not delete them." Show me a single one that has been deleted in violation of that. "But I do have a right to express opinion" You do. What you don't have the right to do is unilaterally change a notability guideline to support your opinion. ― Padenton|✉   00:59, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

"Wow, you like forumshopping." Feel free to read WP:FORUMSHOP. If bringing the incident to WP:ANI was forumshopping, this noticeboard wouldn't exist. ― Padenton|✉   01:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't have any heartburn with those edits to WP:NASTRO by Kheider. Those just appear to be adding clarification and refinement. Lower numbered asteroids generally have more sources available, and so they are worth checking more closely. I've also had to ask the poster to limit the number of AfDs so we have a chance to investigate properly, and he was kind enough to do so. Praemonitus (talk) 02:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I would be inclined to agree with Praemonitus. I don't see Kheider's edits as drastically changing the guideline; rather, I see them as editing the guideline to reflect the current practice of not unilaterally redirecting the low-numbered asteroids. However, the diffs provided comparing Boleyn's actions to genocide are unacceptable, however, and were I uninvolved I would have already issued a strong warning for such behavior. StringTheory11 (t • c) 04:42, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I concur. It has been the result of discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Astronomy and simply clarifies the policy. --JorisvS (talk) 12:49, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Kheider is clearly very emotionally involved in this. My main concerns have been about him rewriting my AfD nominations (changing 'delete or redirect', which was my nomination, to just 'redirect', although he stopped when I warned him, I could easily have not noticed these changes being made. Although Kheider stopped, he didn't seem to acknowledge he had done anything wrong. There have also been a range of bad faith comments aimed at me by Kheider in the discussions which I have tried to just ignore and leave the discussions to be about the notability of the page in question. The comments about my actions being 'genocide' shows that Kheider has lost perspective on this (to say the least!). However, his opinions on the notability of the pages are of course very welcome. Boleyn (talk) 07:28, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

As I mentioned on your talk page User_talk:Boleyn#A_barnstar_for_you.21_5, " I re-wrote 2 of your AfDs because you were asking for numbered asteroid deletions when NASTRO makes it clear you should be asking for a re-directs when dealing with asteroids." The problem was quickly solved and I have noticed you have changed your wording since then. Thank you. For the record, I was comparing the act of re-directing 15,000+ bot created asteroid articles to genocide which may be not the best comparison, but 15,000 is a large number. I am disgusted with Padenton attacking me at NASTRO, my talk page, and here without actually having a conversation about the content of NASTRO. -- Kheider (talk) 13:59, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

If an editor changes a policy, to support their argument in other pages citing that policy, it is very bad practice. Policies must be about «What is best for Wikipedia», not «How can I win my argument?» Spumuq (talq) 09:54, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I fail to see how any of my edits to WP:NASTRO favored my argument for Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/1775_Zimmerwald as claimed by Padenton. This has simply become character assassination by Padenton since he is a deletionist and took a strong dislike to the use of the word genocide. Padenton should NOT have reverted my edits at NASTRO and he is the one harming Wikipedia. Do we need to revert every edit to NASTRO since it was accepted in 2012? I know other people made minor edits to it without approval of a committee. -- Kheider (talk) 13:03, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• The big difference between most of those edits is that they weren't being made by someone taking a position at AfD that is generally against consensus. When you are debating a series of articles in an AfD debate, you should not be making any changes to the relevant notability guideline, unless you're fixing spelling errors/typos. It is also COMPLETELY inappropriate for you to be editing any AfD proposal in the way you did. And, to compound matters, you're trying to blunt-force in your own views as being Wikipedia guidelines, and edit warring in the process. If you keep this up, regardless of any "good" previous history in this area, you will have to be topic banned. Claims that you haven't drastically changed the guideline (by you or by others) are clearly wrong, when the passage of text Asteroids numbered below 2000 should be discussed before re-directing as they are generally larger and have been known longer. Editors should not nominate more than 10 asteroids a day to AfD for discussion. was not previously in there in any form, and is obviously bullshit in part (you have no right to place arbitrary restrictions on how many things editors can nominate at AfD whatsoever). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• And those edits are being explained and discussed on the appropriate talk page at Wikipedia_talk:Notability (astronomical_objects)#Changes without consensus. I was not available during March or April when Boleyn started hundreds of AfDs. -- Kheider (talk) 14:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• The fact they are being discussed now does not change the fact that you tried to force your change in TWICE after being reverted. Also noteworthy is the fact that both editors who have cast a !vote have opposed your changes. Wake up and smell the coffee - your viewpoint isn't the same as the majority of other editor's, and you need to recognize that ASAP. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:41, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

• As being discussed below, do not confuse my 50km asteroid proposal that is being opposed with my clean-up of NASTRO that has received support from Praemonitus, StringTheory11, JorisvS, and has been general consensus for quite some time. If anything is new, it would be the 10 AfDs a day rule, which Boleyn found reasonable when Praemonitus made the request. -- Kheider (talk) 15:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Two thoughts:

1. Kheider should probably be topic-banned from this area for a month or so until he calms down
2. WP:NOTABILITY and its subpages aren't gold-locked WHY exactly? There's no need for anybody but sysops to edit them, particularly when editing them causes problems like these.

pbp 14:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Wow. Even the editors against me say my edits to NASTRO were good. -- Kheider (talk) 14:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Some editors say that. I don't say that, nor do several other editors - your claim above is a barefaced lie (as can be seen from Padenton's comments on the NASTRO discussion which are staunchly in opposition to your actions, whilst David Eppstein has directly rejected your numbers-based change). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:46, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

You do realize that they (including David Eppstein) are opposing my 50km asteroid rule, not the changes I made to clean-up NASTRO? -- Kheider (talk) 14:51, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

You do realize that is not an entirely accurate analysis of their position? "A number is not a source and does not convey notability." rejects your attempts at arbitrarily defining notability for multiple sections with numbers you came up with yourself, not just the "50km asteroid rule". Padenton was also opposing your ownership of the guideline and associated articles - and it is pretty hard to come to any other conclusion. You are way too personally involved in this, you need to back right off and let other editors have their say. Just because you created something does not mean you can rule it with an iron fist. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:57, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Can you name a change that I made to the actual NASTRO guide that I do not have any consensus for? I never inserted my 50km proposal. There is a basically accepted consensus on the Astro project for treating numbered asteroids below 2000 differently. I am not aware if anyone is even against even that change. -- Kheider (talk) 15:06, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

I just pointed to a comment that is rejecting your arbitrary numbers, which, yes, includes that "numbered asteroids below 2000" thing. And besides, you're talking about a discussion for automatic redirecting, not one where asteroids below a completely arbitrary number are automatically assumed to be notable. Chalk and cheese. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Where did I write all numbered asteroid below 2000 are notable? The general consensus for years has been to discuss the ones below 2000. -- Kheider (talk)

I misread who made the post on the discussion thread with the laundry list of arbitrary numbers, so I apologize for that. However, the whole point of an AfD debate is to have a discussion - so there's nothing wrong with nominating it whatsoever. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:49, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

That's right, there's nothing wrong with that. Kheider's version says that below 2000 that's exactly what should happen, on an individual basis. Above 2000 has already been discussed and decided that, if they meet certain criteria, they can be redirected without further discussion. Of course, if someone would like a discussion, that can still happen. --JorisvS (talk) 08:07, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I suggest archiving this thread as it is out scope of this board. Anybody can edit any page in Wikipedia including any guideline. There is nothing here that requires administrator attention. Ruslik_Zero 21:01, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

@Ruslik0: The allegations made against Kheider in this ANI are (Redacted) (See top instead, list has been moved to initial statement)

Evidence for all these is in the arguments and links above. I could be wrong, I am not an admin, but I believe these are certainly within the scope of WP:ANI. If not, by all means show me where it should go and I will happily apologize and take it to the rightful location. ― Padenton|✉   03:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

ANI is only for reporting specific incidents that require immediate administrator attention. General dispute resolution is outside the scope of this board. Ruslik_Zero 13:09, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

@Ruslik0: Sorry, but WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE seems to say that the place would still be here unless I'm misreading it: "If the problem is with the editor's conduct, not their position on some matter of article content, then you may ask an administrator to evaluate the conduct of the user. You can ask for an administrator's attention at a noticeboard such as the administrators' noticeboard for incidents (ANI)." This is an issue about user conduct in this disagreement, and as much as a few editors may have chosen to respond to only say "I liked/didn't like kheider's changes" that isn't what this ANI was brought up for. Rather it was brought up for the allegations I made above. ― Padenton|✉   13:25, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

• There is nothing to be done here. If it draws some attention to Boleyn's mindless attempts to redirect some asteroid articles instead of consolidating the information in those articles into comprehensive list articles and a rational organizing scheme, all the better.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 04:29, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

AfD is the place for that claim. However, I am still unsure how stubs with less information than JPL's completely free database with less organization would be more helpful in constructing the comprehensive list articles you want. ― Padenton|✉   05:36, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

AfD is not for cleanup, however. There are lots of better free websites than Wikipedia, but none nearly as comprehensive nor as able to be continually improved. Thus the 10 minutes I just spent on 504 Cora will better serve humankind than mass AfDs which are effectively deleting content.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 14:14, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

"AfD is not for cleanup" refers to WP:CLEANUP, not articles where the issue is the subject's notability, as you were told in AfD. See Wikipedia:Deletion is not cleanup. Cleaning up articles of questionable notability by deleting them or changing them to redirects is exactly what AfD is for. ― Padenton|✉   14:24, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

No one is debating that the information contained in these stubs could not be retained in list articles, yet it is being effectively deleted by stupid AfD drone behavior. The slavish devotion to whether a subject has a "page" vs. whether that content is available on Wikipedia in a digestable way to benefit our readers is ridiculous. It may well be that a ton of stubs is not the best way to display information. E.g., having stubs on every member of AKB48 is not a good way to present information. All I am demanding is that editors improve this encyclopedia if they wish to edit it.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 14:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

The presence of indiscriminate information on minor planets of no significance whatsoever in separate articles doesn't improve this encyclopedia. It improves this encyclopedia to follow consensus, and that consensus is that most of these articles shouldn't exist. There is absolutely nothing lost here, this is complaining about nothing. Feel free to expand the list articles with the various numbers, all of which can be seen from the history of any of the articles (all of which were redirected, I haven't seen a single one deleted), or you can just use the JPL database (which is where all the information was scraped from in the first place). ― Padenton|✉   14:58, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I demand that Boleyn rewrite List of minor planets: 1001–2000, etc. to include a collapsible box with all the data content in every asteroid article they are sending to AfD, which number in the hundreds. If this is not done, I vote that Boleyn be deleted from Wikipedia. I am not Boleyn's slave.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 16:34, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

If you are the one who wants to see the information, it is on you to make the table; you get to demand nothing. Boleyn is simply following the notability guideline WP:NASTRO, which was approved by community consensus. If you want to see a change, perhaps you could actually go to the appropriate forum (the talk page) and propose such a change, to see if it gets support, instead of here and on AfDs. StringTheory11 (t • c) 17:11, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Wrroooonng. I am not making any tables, you are not making me a slave. I am demanding that Boleyn make these changes and expect them to be followed. If not, I will demand that an asteroid collide with Earth. At some point an admin will close these thread and my demands will certainly be fulfilled.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 18:21, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Milowent interaction ban

I hate to propose sanctions against somebody who is clearly usually a productive member of the community, but I must here. Milowent seems to have taken it upon themselves to oppose every recent AfD started by Boleyn (see contribs here; search for AfD nominations). That alone would constitute some wikihounding and is subpar behavior, and then I saw Milowent's comment in this thread that was obviously a personal attack on Boleyn here, referring to himself as a slave to Boleyn and "demand"ing that Boleyn be "deleted" from Wikipedia in the most condescending way possible. I thought it was an isolated incident, but then noticed that Milowent has been plastering the same comment on multiple AfDs regarding asteroids, see [5], [6], and [7]. When queried by me here and MrX at one of the AfDs, Milowent's responses were not encouraging, saying that his "demand" is rational [8], and that he, again, was not going to be a "slave", and that he wishes an asteroid would collide with Earth to stop the nominations [9]. It is clear at this point that Milowent cannot constructively interact with Boleyn, and I propose a one-way interaction ban preventing Milowent from interacting with Boleyn. (I also recommend that no further action be taken against Kheider for the time being). StringTheory11 (t • c) 02:12, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support as nom. StringTheory11 (t • c) 02:12, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
• Neutral: struck support, Milowent has acknowledged (but not apologized over) the personal attacks and incivility. A point that needs to be mentioned: Using WP:EFD for incivility, then bringing up the excuse of humor, is a very poor excuse to use WP:EFD. Esquivalience ^t 00:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support This behaviour is upsetting me. I started AfDs as per general consensus, to solve a notability issue several years old - and the majority of those I have nominated have not been kept, but redirected. Nevertheless, I've felt hounded and intimidated by people opposing them being discussed, including around 30 notifications from Milowent of comments which have all been personal attacks, including 22 in one go. I'm fine with someone disagreeing with me, but we can't have this sort of behaviour. Boleyn (talk) 05:47, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as accused. More to come later, on the night shift at the moment. Suffice it to say, I've had my say and only commented in a few of Boleyn's mass of nominations. I have no intention of going further with my efforts to draw editor attention to my concerns, if that was not sufficient.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 10:53, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Additional comments from the accused: Oh lord people. I must disclose an important fact. Despite my frequent claims of omnipotence, I do not have the power to make an asteroid collide with Earth to influence AfD outcomes I do not like. I commented in about 10-15(?) of maybe 200 asteroid AfDs started by Boleyn (far from "every recent afd") in the past month. My initial comments about it being a misuse of AfD to do this (no AfD references the others, cut and paste nominations, no real evidence of WP:BEFORE occuring) went unheard, as they are trying to use AfD to develop policy, which really never works like this. WP:EFD (nominating editors for deletion you are frustrated with) is a joke as old as wikipedia. One really shouldn't propose interaction bans and blocks the first time you have a complaint about another editor, without even talking to them. I am the most reasonable person in the world. I didn't ask that Boleyn be banned from making AfD nominations for asteroids for a month (though it would be a good idea if they voluntarily let the prior AfDs run and then propose some consensus rules, but they completely ignored my suggestions). What am I primarily taking my time to do? I spent time timing improving 1700 Zvezdara, currently at AfD, to show it may indeed be notable, instead of being subject to a cut-and-paste nomination. I also improved 504 Cora, which isn't at AfD, but on a hitlist Wikipedia:Minor planet articles that might fail NASTRO, and which appeared notable to me. Boleyn, as with my perfectly friendly comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Uthai Thani F.C., I simply ask you to consider if you are going about this the right way, and when you get negative reactions that is not a terrible thing, it is something to consider.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 14:56, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: Boleyn, this whole Deletionism and inclusionism in Wikipedia is one of Wikipedia greatest problems and one of the reasons people leave Wikipedia never to return. This is also why I had asked to spare borderline asteroid candidates so there would be wiggle room for some growth, thus still giving the inclusionists something to expand. Newbies simply will not know how to undo a re-direct to a list page. Hell, after editing Wikipedia since 2006, I have not run around memorizing every policy, guide, or essay that can be thrown in someone's face by the Wiki-police. I only got involved in the NASTRO guide because I thought it was important and to combat extremists such as Chrisrus. Personally, I hate working on policies and making rules, but I also know very few have my knowledge or willingness (foolishness?) to work on NASTRO. After reading all of this crap, do you really think anyone else from the Astro project page will want to step-up and put serious effort into NASTRO any time soon with the risk of some wiki-cop coming around and attacking them? -- Kheider (talk) 15:42, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom, Esquivalience, and Boleyn. No objection to no further sanctions on Kheider provided he agrees in the future to:

1. Allow the discussion of his changes to policy/guidelines at the proper venue (which is the talk page of said policy, not a wikiproject talk page)
2. Be up front about edits he makes to policies/guidelines by alerting discussions he is involved in that are affected by those changes
3. Cease personal attacks against other users, including but not limited to:
   • Comparing actions fully justified by policy to genocide
   • Characterizing the edits of other editors as gang rape
4. Refrain from editing the discussion comments of others, especially when he disagrees with them.

I really fail to see how any of these are 'obscure policies' being thrown at Kheider by the 'wiki-police'. It's simple common decency, honesty, and integrity. But apparently fair, reasoned discussion is a little too bureaucratic for "one of the creators of WP:NASTRO" as he introduced himself in some of the AfDs. ― Padenton|✉   16:59, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

"Common decency" is not how I would describe your bad faith assumptions, calling my edits to NASTRO disgusting, posting edit war comments to my page "before having a real discussion at NASTRO", and then taking me to ANI so you could have your way with me. -- Kheider (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not a bad faith assumption to bring this issue to WP:ANI, the proper venue for it, when you allege Boleyn has committed Genocide, allege I gangraped you by starting this ANI, and edit Boleyn's AfD nomination to change its meaning. "so you could have your way with me" Seriously? Right after your 2 day block ended for comparing my actions to gangrape? You talk about scaring newbies away from Wikipedia. Are you sure you're not more of a problem than I am? You changed WP:NASTRO by "adding clarifications" that would support your argument in an AfD and then pointed to the new text as you had modified it to support your claims in an AfD. You still don't seem to realize how dishonest that is and how dangerous that is for consensus in Wikipedia. ― Padenton|✉   17:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

You assumed my edits to NASTRO where in bad faith and still may think that for all I know. Not one of my changes to NASTRO caused a change of outcome at an AfD and am not sure how any of those common sense changes to NASTRO would. -- Kheider (talk) 17:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I grow tired of repeating myself. Your edits to WP:NASTRO here again implied a size cutoff for notability, in support of your previous arguments in the AfDs. They also implied that any number of light curve studies or occultation studies would support notability. You also imposed your own personal opinion of how many nominations should be made a day. All of these were in support of arguments you have been making in numerous AfDs for the past couple weeks. ― Padenton|✉   18:04, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

See if you ask a question instead of attacking me, I can better explain. The main-belt asteroid 1999 XF255 is 5km in diameter and that is mostly why it is NOT notable in anyway shape or form. In no way was I suggesting asteroids larger than 5km are notable be default. When doing a search for asteroid info you will normally come across light curve studies or occultation studies, again that is does not automatically grant notability, but should be considered. You obviously know that the text can be edited vs completely reverting everything a single editor has added?-- Kheider (talk) 18:22, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

The problem is this is a guideline. Editors unfamiliar with the topic go there for guidance in their actions. By saying "it's not notable because it is less than 5km in diameter" doesn't clarify it, it makes it more vague. Just as saying "before nominating, check for light curve studies and occultation studies" (neither quote is verbatim) is implying that they are notable when you don't clarify that by saying it alone is not enough to justify notability. People are already checking for light curve studies and occultation studies, because they come up in searches for sources. I have yet to see a minor planet AfD where participants did not check google scholar and discuss that specific minor planet. ― Padenton|✉   21:01, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support as per OP - and as per some of Milowent's totally ridiculous comments in the thread above (ie the sarcastic demands and such tripe). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:57, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose as completely uninvolved, unlike many participants in this discussion. These are all good contributors and this is a content dispute, acted out over inclusion of semi-minor astronomical objects. For the record, I've never been accused of being a friend to User:Milowent. It would fair to say that usually that editor and I have disagreed, sometimes bitterly, about AfD procedures. However, IMHO, there's some hyperbole being tossed around here on both sides (heck, even on the part of the IBAN/TBAN proposer), and I don't think an interaction ban is the way to go, and I certainly don't agree with a topic ban. Milowent is an editor I consider a strong inclusionist and perhaps an eventualist (in this case I mean that as a compliment). That editor has in the past worked doggedly to improve and keep articles at AFD as opposed to delete them, in virtually every sort of content area. The editor's passion is and has always been very strong, and I'll agree the comments made relating to slavery and user deletion were over the top. The diffs provided above, however, don't meet my standard for personal attack (personal yes, hyperbole yes, sarcastic yes, attack not so much). On the other hand, User:Boleyn has been a busy beaver, putting several hundred astronomical pages up for AFD in the last month or two, and other editors have asked Boleyn to slow down. We've got no deadline after all. Milowent has only commented at 25-30 processes (hardly "every one" as proposer asserts). Saying you want to delete users is an ancient inclusionist/ARS joke which doesn't play well anymore. As far as I can see, most of the conflict could have been avoided if (after seeing the way the wind was blowing) Boleyn had simply chosen to redirect the articles, which is how almost all of these AFDs have concluded. If Boleyn had not been so dedicated to putting these up for deletion in such a hurry, perhaps a better decision could have been made, given feedback at these many AFDs that these mostly deserved redirect, page histories being kept intact for later expansion (which is why I suspect Milowent opposed deletion so vigorously). IMHO, this whole affair would be better served at DR, not to this board. For now, Boleyn should stop putting more of these articles up for deletion until the issue is resolved. For now, Milowent should admit their use of language was unnecessarily strong, and promise not to repeat the behavior. For the rest, this deserves dispute resolution. I see insufficient diffs of wrongdoing to find anything actionable against any user in this dispute. BusterD (talk) 05:54, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• BusterD's comment has made me feel all warm and fuzzy. I agree that my language against Boleyn was unnecessarily strong despite the silliness of it, and promise not to repeat that behavior. I also promise to call off all notable and non-notable asteroids I previously had summoned towards Earth at high velocity.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 02:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you, Milowent. With the promise not to repeat the behavior, I withdraw the proposal; I take Milowent's word for what it is, and no longer believe an interaction ban is necessary. StringTheory11 (t • c) 05:48, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Together we can take things like Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1656 Suomi and improve wikipedia for future generations of humankind.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 06:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Sorry, but proposing an editor for "deletion" is not something that warrants interaction ban. Some people here clearly lack sense of humor. Ruslik_Zero 20:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Advice requested

No More Mr Nice Guy Notified of this discussion.

No More Mr Nice Guy was banned from participation in WP:ARBPIA-related AE discussions after he complained I was engaged in ‘Jew baiting’ in July 2013. He withdrew, apparently in protest at the negative verdict for his claim, from active editing of wikipedia, while over the intervening years, documenting that wikipedia is anti-Semitic on his original homepage. The evidence was mounted exclusively by using several diffs from my work, some of which had been analysed and dismissed in his original complaint.

here i.e., User:No More Mr Nice Guy/Antisemitism and Wikipedia To illustrate the thesis, there is a section called Wikipedia specific. Its evidence lists

• this
• this
• this
• this

He occasionally dropped notes on editors’ talk pages alluding to me in a way that suggested the same message. here, for example

Now that he is back editing, and that is a good thing, and we have disagreements, which are normal, I think this WP:AGF issue directed my way requires some clarification, especially since it is alluded to again here where No More Mr Good Guy was responding to the statement I made here. His disavowel:'Apropos my user page, which was not about you but about Wikipedia and Western society in general', is disingenuous in the extreme, since the evidence for 'anti-Semitism on Wikipedia' there is culled only by a selective use and distorted reading of some of my edits. Advice either way (to me) (to him) would be appreciated so that an atmosphere of less suspicion can prevail, and the kind of exasperatingly perplexing argumentation over trivia, easily resolved by either party (by me orby him), of the kind you find here, may be avoided.

This is not a request for sanctions, which do not apply to the problem. I have no objection to any editor privately entertaining a conviction I am an anti-Semite. I simply think alluding to this personal belief while engaging with me is not conducive to collaborative editing because it tends to make for inordinately long controversies when the issues are simple.

I would also request editors involved in the area not to add their opinions or takes sides, but allow this to be examined by impartial outside editors. Nishidani (talk) 19:08, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm just wondering what action you are looking for from admins here. A strongly worded warning on his talk page? The deletion of that user page whose examples of anti-Semitism consist of your edits? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:42, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd simply like editors to assess the evidence, to tell me if it is acceptable to allude to a fellow editor as an anti-Semite, or as a 'symptom' of anti-Semitism, as he has twice this year. If it is acceptable, fine. If it is not, well, a word NMMGG's way, would be appropriate. By the way 'whose examples' should be 'whose putative examples', I think.Nishidani (talk) 21:00, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any reason not to delete that page per a textbook case of WP:POLEMIC (and it's bordering on a G10 speedy as well). Does anyone disagree? Black Kite (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

If you are going to delete something from my userspace for being polemic, I request you look at Nishidani's userspace as well. I made that page under the assumption it was allowed, partially based on this deletion request of Nishidani's page. If this sort of thing is not allowed for anyone, fine. Otherwise there needs to be some consistency. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:20, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

The difference being, I would suggest, is that Nishidani's talkpage in the above MfD did not, as far as I can see, cast any aspersions about other editors. Black Kite (talk) 21:59, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I can't document a problem with Wikipedia without linking to diffs. The only thing there that I suppose could be considered as casting aspersions might be me pointing out his laughable attempt of using an anti-semite to explain what anti-semitism is or isn't. I'll remove that if there's consensus it's a problem. But otherwise these are diffs illustrating what I think is a serious systemic problem with Wikipedia and Western society in general. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:18, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

The bottom line is, if you're going to document something titled "Anti-Semitism and Wikipedia" by using a particular user's edits, then it follows that you are effectively accusing them of being an anti-semite. There is plenty of obvious anti-semitism at Wikipedia which you could quite easily have used instead, but you've chosen to use one person's edits which don't fall into that "obvious" category, and hence you're breaching NPA. Black Kite (talk) 22:40, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Have you read the page? The whole point is that Western cultures know how to deal with someone who sprays a swastika on a synagogue, but seem to be unable to deal with anti-semitism when it's mixed up with anti-Zionism. And that moreover, when someone complains about such things they are at best not taken seriously and at worse punished for complaining, thus making it unlikely that others will complain.

I can change the title of the page if that helps. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:37, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to correct some inaccuracies in Nishidani's complaint.

The AE complaint Nishidani links to was dismissed out of hand in less than 24 hours by a single admin with no discussion for, basically, lack of AGF. It is very unusual for AE complaints to be closed that fast, particularly if made by an editor with a completely clean record like I had.

As I'm sure you can imagine, when someone makes a complaint about harassment, particularly what could probably be termed "racially aggravated" harassment, and it doesn't even get minimal discussion, you could get a little upset. I was very disappointed with the system here. I started documenting what to me seem like similar cases in my userspace. I think they're very relevant to the AE complaint I filed.

Over the years I realized there's a systemic problem, but it is not unique to Wikipedia, so I came back.

Nishidani was the one who brought the whole thing up in the discussion he linked to above [10], and now he's complaining that I replied to him. All he had to do is leave it be. And maybe not make off color jokes about being lynched on a page about people who were actually lynched and mutilated. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

By the way, in the same post I mention just above, he accused other editors of having "ethnic-exclusive" "sentiments" [11]. That's an accusation of racism. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:50, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Nope. Someone with an "ethnic-exclusive sentiment" is someone who cares only for his own, which is utterly human and absolutely normal. It doesn't help ensure that, in an area of ethnic conflict, WP:NPOV is secured, however. What other contiguous groups are, think or do, is a matter of indifference to them. A racist is someone who aggressively abuses, attacks or smears the outgroup. I do not see established editors here doing the latter: to the contrary I see editors looking closely at whatever edit might be interpreted as reflecting poorly on one party, while showing a total insouciance to the history of the other side. Nishidani (talk) 10:02, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I see. Someone who cares only for their own ethnicity is not a racist. Whatever. It's still a personal attack. Or did you mean it as a compliment as you spat it at people questioning why you keep changing what the sources say to push a certain POV? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:11, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Are you aware that characterizing me as possible someone who spat your way verbally is rather violent in its imagery? Let me review why this kind of angry language is problematical.

• (a) You maintain a page imputing to me antisemitism
• (b) You accuse me here of engaging in a personal attack for which you have given no evidence, i.e., I assume that since, in your view I am an 'anti-Semite' you are entitled to read that specific animus into anything I do.
• Any independent mind, with regard to personal animus issues, can review the short section where I simply took a Cheshire cat I/P intruder (pops in, reverts or squabbles then disappears)to task and found myself rapidly subject to two personal attacks, by established editors who ignored the issue with the I/P and focused on me. I.e., the issue at hand was ignored, and pretexts were found to personalize the matter.
• User:Plot Spoiler pops in to say that my use of the word 'lynch' to brush off niggling (one about an edit made 2 months ago) 'simply adds to the body of evidence that you are engaged in a POV pushing campaign by mischaracterizing even the most minute details to further demonize Israel.’

Plot Spoiler appears on pages I edit only to revert me, and disappear. No discussion. He believes there is a growing body of evidence I am editing Wikipedia to demonize Israel (translated that means, I edit in lots of information about the P in the I/P area, i.e. what happens in the West Bank and Gaza)

You then jump in and an insult to injury.

• And you have the audacity to lecture other editors about "precision" and "pity" that's not being "ethnic-exclusive"? That's hilarious even from you. You should be ashamed of yourself, but you obviously lack the capacity.

These are personal attacks, and, in context, suggest again that your repeating the idea that I am motivated by anti-Semitism explains a 'growing body of evidence' I am 'demonizing' Israel. Nothing there shows me using this strong personal attack on either your or Plot Spoiler's bona fides. So we have a problem, and that's why I am asking that independent experienced editors review this thesis, which hangs like a cloud over my editing because of this concocted nonsense that I am anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. I have several editors who seem to revert me on any page I edit. Perhaps they haven't read your screed, but the tenor of this collective behavior and the irrationality of the reverts suggests they think anything I do is politically or racially motivated. If I were anti-Semitic or anti-Israel, why on earth do I make these edits, to cite but a few casually over the past few months. E.g.(1); (2);(3);(4);(5);(6);(7);(8);(9);(10)? Nishidani (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't appreciate Nishidani's WP:personal attacks against me by saying that I edit in an "ethnic exclusive" fashion[12]. It's laughable for Nishidani to say it's not a personal attack. S/he should strike it as an act of good faith. Plot Spoiler (talk) 20:03, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

'Someone with an "ethnic-exclusive sentiment" is someone who cares only for his own, which is utterly human and absolutely normal.'(see above) If you have a range of edits introducing details of tragic incidents regarding Palestinians, I'd be illuminated to discover them. Most editors here edit from their personal interest in only one of the two parties. I find that wholly unreprehensible, because we are biologically wired that way. To the contrary, Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto is contra-factual, however sublime the adage. No personal attack intended.Nishidani (talk) 20:27, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Strike your remarks as a matter of policy then. It is a personal attack. Plot Spoiler (talk) 20:38, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

You appeal to policy, which however you wish to be applied uniquely to my comment for its inferred meaning. You and NMMGG have both made explicit attacks on my bona fides. On this you are silent. Rules are neutral, and editors who ask that they be applied to everyone but themselves are not being credible. Review your remark, cited above. I'd be interested to know why you don't consider it a personal attack. And why you think I 'demonize' Israel?Nishidani (talk) 21:11, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, I just realized he later changed the wording. Apparently the other editors don't have a "capacity for pity and horror [that is] not ethnic-exclusive". He was trying to tell us we're normal, you see? He was telling other editors that if they edit differently, he will "convince himself" that they're not normal. This is a recurring theme. For example, here, he helpfully bolded the word "normal" possibly implying that his interlocutors are really really normal. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:52, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Good grief, you can't even recognize an obvious allusion to Aristotle. I've asked some questions, raised a query. Please address them. Nishidani (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

I apologize. Apparently my ability to recognize an obvious allusion to Aristotle is as limited as my capacity for pity and horror that's not ethnic-exclusive (ie normal?). No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

The word 'capacity' is ill-chosen. It was you who said I lacked the capacity to feel shame (You should be ashamed of yourself, but you obviously lack the capacity). Saying it is normal, wired into man to look after his own, can't be twisted to imply I intend some (anti-Semitic) innuendo that man is incapable of pity or horror for others. Your attempt to be clever only shows you cannot read anything I write except as some tacit, occultated 'sophisticated, subtle' (your words) game to get at an ethnic group. Back to the point then, why is your denial that I have a capacity for shame not an unwarranted attack? (2) If I am a 'symptom' of an anti-Semitic malaise affecting not only Wikipedia, but the whole Western world, as you now assert, what does this imply for situations where we are obliged to collaborate on articles? Please focus. Nishidani (talk) 21:38, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

"Capacity" was me directly quoting you. Thanks for elucidating what exactly you meant. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:52, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Please read carefully. I said you had a capacity, that was restrictive. You said I lacked the capacity to feel a fundamental moral sentiment. I allowed your humanity, you excluded mine. I don't take offense, except at the failure to make indispensable distinctions.Nishidani (talk) 07:25, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

You said I lack a "capacity for pity and horror that's not ethnic-exclusive". I doubt that's a compliment or meant to affirm my humanity. I'm still waiting to hear what ethnicity you were thinking about when you made that statement. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

To tie all this back to the original complaint, perhaps Nishidani can tell us what ethnicity he was accusing other editors of being "ethnic-exclusive" towards. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:45, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Antisemitism speech is a crime (at least in Europe). Unfairly accusing somebody of antisemitism and reporting this is therefore defaming. This behaviour is in contradiction with WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL and also a worst case of breach of WP:NPA. More, No More Mr Nice Guy was warned by the ArbCom but he keeps attacking Nishidani. The conditions for a good collaboration with NMMNG cannot be met in these circumstances. I suggest that all the comments are removed from his page and that he is blocked for a significant period of time (2 months) if he makes any single allusion to a potential antisemitism of any contributor of wikipedia again. Pluto2012 (talk) 02:49, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

No, absolutely no sanction. NMMGG has a fine eye for some things, that is productive and useful for Wikipedia. He noted, for example, two slips I made over two months, slips that were minor, but nonetheless distortions of the source (I plead haste, but I suspect in one edit, writing 'mostly' for 'several'(or whatever) does indeed look bad. I don't think this means that over 37,000 edits mostly from excellent sources, this kind of slip is indicative of an anti-Semite demonizing Israel.

As to NMMGG, I asked for clarifications, and none are forthcoming. He has repeated his belief I am a 'symptom' of a malaise in Western civilization, elsewhere identified as anti-Semitism, and this clearly makes his interactions with me difficult. All I really want is an equable editing atmosphere, not personal hostility on the pages.Nishidani (talk) 07:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

The sensible solution is to allow NMMGG to retain his page of indictment of myself and Wikipedia (freedom of speech should be absolute). However, since the page does present his subjective contention about me as an anti-Semite as a fact, both his right to express his private views as a metacritique of Wikipedia, and my right to not be subject to an attack which implies I have a criminal outlook, evidenced in my editing, can be guaranteed, by attribution. All he need do, is present his evidence with some type of prefatory formula:'In my view, these edits suggest' an anti-Semitic attitude'. Underneath the evidence, simply link to my examination and answers to the accusations on my home page (User:Nishidani), and note I challenge his accusation. That done, all can feel justice is done, NMMGG in being allowed to retain a personal attack on me on that page, and my right to rebuff the charges. I make this suggestion after receiving a particularly lunatic death threat against my wife in an email, by one of the dozens of editors who have none of NMMGG's moderation and restraint, but, like him, are convinced that anyone editing also to ensure that the P side of the I/P area is duly and proportionally represented per WP:NPOV must be, ipso facto an anti-Semitic demonizer of Israel. Nishidani (talk) 10:05, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

I am certainly not "convinced that anyone editing also to ensure that the P side of the I/P area is duly and proportionally represented per WP:NPOV must be, ipso facto an anti-Semitic demonizer of Israel". That's another personal attack on your part. I do think, among other things, that you (just you, not everyone) are a relentless POV pusher, who subtly changes what the sources say to advance a POV. Those "slips" you mention above do indeed look bad and can hardly be explained by "haste". Just like in the examples you give above that are supposed to showcase your wonderful NPOV editing, an 18 year old Palestinian who stabs people is called a "boy" (not in the source) or an Israeli who is stabbed in the stomach (in the source) turns into "lightly wounded in the torso", or the many many many other such examples I could bring if anyone actually cared about the integrity of this encyclopedia.

Anyway, could you kindly answer the question above? Which ethnicity were you talking about? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

No. If you want clarification of my varied remarks, which you appear to take invariably as adventitious personal ideas reflecting perhaps some obscure mindcast of mine, rather than allusions to somewhat clichéd elements of sociology, read any of the relevant literature on ethnicity, nationalism, outgroup/ingroup relations, beginning with Daniele Conversi,Ethnonationalism in the Contemporary World, Psychology Press, 2004.p.76

Until you respond to my initial evidence of your documented framing of me as an anti-Semite active on Wikipedia, I feel no obligation to respond to attempts side-step the issue, move the goal-posts, and make out that, in outlining my case, I am engaged in a series of personal attacks. I'm not interested in bickering, but in independent external, neutral editors reviewing that evidence and making some suggestions that might free our collaboration from the sullied image of both myself and Wikipedia which you have highlighted on that page.Nishidani (talk) 18:48, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

To sum this query up for the benefit of neutral editors, how am I to establish an equable, collegial working relationship with an editor who uses Wikipedia to assert that I am an anti-Semite? It is as simple as that. Nishidani (talk) 18:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

What? You were not "allu[ding] to somewhat clichéd elements of sociology". You were telling other editors you doubt they have the capacity for pity or horror for people outside a certain ethnicity. An ethnicity you now wisely refuse to name. You need to "convert" so you can "convince yourself" they have such capacity, you said. So kindly cut the bullshit. I can't imagine anyone is buying this new line.

I have not moved the goal posts. You claim I am making personal attacks against you. I am discussing the issue with an admin above, and will gladly discuss with any uninvolved editor and will accept any consensus on whether I should keep that page or not. While doing that, I have provided evidence that you engage in personal attacks as you complain about attacks against you. Your hands are not clean and I think it's quite legitimate for me to point that out. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

You are ignoring the original points, and trying to engage me in a fishing expedition to turn the focus from what you've done, use a wiki page to accuse an editor of anti-Semitism. I have no confidence in your ability to construe my words in any other sense than as evidence of racial animus. I am quite happy to respond to any neutral third party who desires any clarification (i.e. I'll reply to them if, any of your counterfactual assertions have sown some doubt in onlookers' minds, such as: "Just like in the examples you give above that are supposed to showcase your wonderful NPOV editing, an 18 year old Palestinian who stabs people is called a "boy" (not in the source) or an Israeli who is stabbed in the stomach (in the source) turns into "lightly wounded in the torso" .") It is pointless discussing this with you, since, as you state on that page I am an anti-Semite, anything I do say in this context will be read as evidence of that hypothesis. In hermeneutics or science, that is a circular method that leads nowhere. So kindly stop the bickering, and allow others to air their impressions or views. Thank you Nishidani (talk) 22:28, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

To sum this query up for the benefit of neutral editors, how am I to establish an equable, collegial working relationship with an editor who uses Wikipedia to assert that I am an anti-Semite? It is as simple as that. Nishidani (talk) 18:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

I think that assertion is totally unacceptable. At minimum, that part of the page should be removed. --IRISZOOM (talk) 07:09, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree with IRISZOOM that asserting that Nishidani is an antisemite is unacceptable. In my view, labeling Nishidani as an anti-Semite violates WP:AGF. I posted a note on NMMNG's talk page asking him to refrain from attacking editors. First he appears to have attacked Nishidani by labeling him as an antisemite. Now he seems to be adding insult to injury by calling Nishidani a 'childless old man.' I kindly advised NMMNG to remove anything from the sub-page off of his user page that can be seen as labeling Nishidani as an antisemite, and to stop posting on Nishidani's talk page. NMMNG's allegations against Nishidani and his posts on Nishidani's user talk page are not in the spirit of the communitarian culture of Wikipedia, are counter-productive and do not help improve the encyclopedia. IjonTichy (talk) 18:52, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Could either of you kindly quote me "asserting" anything? Thanks. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

While we wait for either of you to provide some evidence of me asserting what you claim I assert, would you like to share which ethnicity you think Nishidani was alluding to when he accused myself and a couple of other editors of lacking a "capacity for pity and horror that is not ethnic-exclusive"? I'm curious as to how other editors read this. Here are the diffs again [13] [14] No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Simpler still. Is this page User:No More Mr Nice Guy/Antisemitism and Wikipedia, in attributing to a fellow editor the crime/pathological mindset of anti-Semitism, since the 'evidence' consist of diffs from my editing history, compatible with Wikipedia's principles of WP:AGF? A note on the kind of 'evidence' gathering, and its defects, being used to confirm NMMGG's suspicion can be found here. Nishidani (talk) 13:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I've changed the name of the page. I hope that solves the problem. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:33, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Black Kite (talk) wrote: 'Idon't see any reason not to delete that page per a textbook case of WP:POLEMIC (and it's bordering on a G10 speedy as well).'

He asked if anyone disagreed. No one has.

Johnuniq on your talk page, gave a thorough exposition of the policies principles that page compromises.

Those two editors are independent. I've actually been cautioned at times by the latter, justly so.

I have tried here, on my page, and just now on your page, to reach a compromise to allow you to retain that page (against policy) and my right of reply registered on it by a link. All you need to have added to satisfy my request was to write under your indictment: 'However, see this, a link where everything you list as an accusation is, to me, comprehensively answered. You simply reverted my last bid for a compromise that would save your interests and my honour. So, ignoring the three involved editors who think it should be removed, and my own opinion that you should annotate it to preserve my right to defend myself, I ask that the 2 neutral opinions, given no one is defending that page other than its author, be accepted as determinative, and that the page be erased from wikispace.Nishidani (talk) 18:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I have had no dealings with Black Kite as far as I can remember, and he has a reputation as a good admin, so I will gladly discuss with him and take what he says to heart.

Johnuniq on the other hand shows up to support you every time you're on an administrative board, so no.

Two days ago you told me not to post on your page. As you can imagine, I didn't make much effort to read what you posted today on my page before I removed it. Turnabout is fair play as they say. I do not regularly read your page. So I didn't seen what kind of "compromise" you were suggesting. I did change the page's name as a compromise following the discussion here, since Black Kite seemed to think the name implied something. Any further changes will come if, as I said above, there's a consensus among uninvolved editors, something I don't see here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I told you to stop posting because I found your persistence in insinuating I was getting at Jews, aggressive, repetitive and tedious, and I read everything there. You reverted me without paying attention, mere tit-for-tat. To repeat, you can't 'frame' a fellow editor on wikispace, as you did. It is as strong a violation of any policy as you can get. I said you could, if you linked to my analysis of those accusations. I stated that here, on my page, and your page before you reverted. You dismiss Johnuniq as a partisan. You gave, however, no adequate reply to his close policy analysis, and I suggest any closing editor examine his reasoning before deciding. That's all I have to say.Nishidani (talk) 22:26, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Johnuniq's analysis is based on the false premise that I'm "asserting" something about you or "labeling" you. He ignored my request for quotes. I believe such claims should be backed up by a diff? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:19, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Come on! the Arbs looked at the material, and exonerated me, and told you to stop it. You withdrew, drew up an attack page, and even stooped to dropping hints, not too obscure, to another editor that I was up to the same old game you originally accused me of. I.e.

The page has the quote:

We found that there is hardly any difference in the semantics of highly educated anti-Semites and vulgar extremists and neo-Nazis.

You 'tipped off'(A buen entendedor, pocas palabras bastan) User:Ashtul You gotta hand it to the guy, he's quite good at what he does. Sophisticated and subtle, usually hitting points people from, shall we say "a certain walk of life" will immediately recognize, but outsiders would probably not. It doesn't need a genius to read one in the sense of the other (the 'guy' is little different from a neo-Nazi). Nishidani (talk) 10:50, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

No, a single admin dismissed it out of hand because he thought it was "vexatious". He even explicitly said he didn't look at all the evidence.

You could read all kinds of stuff into the quotes on that page, it's nice that you found one you feel fits you.

As for "sophisticated and subtle", when you said myself and Plot Spoiler lack a "capacity for pity and horror that is not ethnic-exclusive" [15] [16], what ethnicity were you talking about? Are you not saying that we care only about people of our own ethnicity? If that's not enough, doesn't it allude to a millenia old accusation against, what must be a complete coincidence, the same ethnicity? You drop this sort of stuff all the time. Maybe wording it like this gives you plausible deniability, but I doubt you don't see the connection. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

While you think of a plausible explanation, I just remembered the time you said editors like me tend to be opposed as goyim beyond the pale. It doesn't need a genius to see how these things stack up. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I think it is obvious how it is an assertion. You had, until you just changed it, a page called "Antisemitism and Wikipedia" and some of Nishidani's edit was listed under "Wikipedia specific". --IRISZOOM (talk) 09:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

That's not an assertion. That could be an implication. One that's gone now that I changed the page name. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Black Kite: Per your comment above, do you have a suggestion? I have explained here (permalink) that the user page (which was originally Antisemitism and Wikipedia) should be removed because either there is evidence that Nishidani is anti-Semitic, or there isn't. In both cases, sly allegations have no place at Wikipedia—the correct procedure would be to discuss the evidence at a noticeboard. I would take this to WP:MFD but while reviewing some of the background it quickly became apparent that MfD would be very tedious due to the likelihood that the people who battle over every comma at WP:ARBPIA articles would arrive to vote according to their beliefs, and the principles of WP:POLEMIC would be drowned out with an attempt to discuss the allegations (as seen in the most recent comment at NMMNG's talk). Discussing the allegations completely misses the point of POLEMIC. Johnuniq (talk) 12:37, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

You said the page name implies something. I changed it. You said it's not ok to call something another editor said "malicious". I changed that as well. There is ample precedent showing I'm allowed to document faults with Wikipedia in my user space, including links to what other editors have said. One such precedent is Nishidani's own user page. So if you have something specific you feel is a problem (not including the fact you don't want your friend on that page at all), feel free to let me know and I'll consider it. Meanwhile it would be nice if you could answer my question after I answered yours, but I understand why you don't want to. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Apparent dispute over Semion Mogilevich and meddling with a userpage.

Not really sure what to do with this, actually, since things have changed over my time in Wikipedia... Couple of IPs (probably used by the same person) have been re-inserting apparent POV link to Semion Mogilevich (edit history). IPs in question have left comments threatening to report me and User:Andhisteam to request bans and the like. Now those IPs have also edited my user page with similar comments and threats (I took a liberty of reverting the changes in my user page). I might have got somewhat annoyed in the process, commenting in one IP page. If there really has been reports or ban requests targeting me, I don't know about them. IPs apparently involved are User:122.152.167.101 and User:122.152.167.218 but they are probably dynamic and going to change in the future so I am not sure what IP I should be sending further comments to. I'd rather not get involved with a fruitless edit war with those but have apparently been involved against my wishes. I leave to your judgement of what could be done, if anything. - Skysmith (talk) 20:17, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Just a note here: The IPs are a part of a corp, and do change. Some advice is if you must say anything to them, say it to whichever acted last. Also, due to this, it is quite likely that it is the same person making these edits. As well, I am watching the page, and will step to help. -- Orduin ^Discuss 20:46, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

After reviewing a request for page protection on this article (which I denied), I decided to perform 2 blocks. One, a rangeblock on 122.152.167.0/24 and one on an account, likely the same person, Lemma2Lemma. Rjd0060 (talk) 21:18, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Next IP User:121.100.143.123, another IP involved with the same page - Skysmith (talk) 23:16, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Given that the user is hopping outside the blocked range, I have semi-protected the page for now. Pinging @Rjd0060: to check if the range-block can/need be undone ie if there are other users on it. Abecedare (talk) 23:21, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Abecedare, I think it would be wise to leave the block in place. It was a very small range (<300 IPs) and he used many of them. Unless we get any unblock requests showing collateral damage, I'd assume that was his primary range and unblocking it would be counterproductive at this time. Rjd0060 (talk) 12:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

POV pushing, removal of sourced material

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I would like to highlight the case of tendentious editing by some editors.

We need as many uninvolved admins as possible keeping an eye on more or less all Ukrainian conflict-related articles. There's a never-ending edit war going on there.

Problem:

Removal of well sourced material. User:Volunteer Marek seems to be the most aggressive. An editor keeps deleting content which he disagrees with.

Evidence:

Here are a few examples. 2014 - April 2015: diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff diff. May 2015: diff, diff diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff.

Violation of WP:NPOV policy:

WP:NPOV says clearly include fairly all significant views published by reliable sources. This means the article should not be trying to argue for one view or another, but simply representing them proportionately.

Excuses for POV-blanking:

"There is no consensus for these changes", or "WP:UNDUE" (In other words, WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT)

or "doesn't belong here": diff, diff, diff, diff.

See examples here: MyMoloboaccount: Restored, Volunteer Marek: Removed. Tobby72: Restored, Bobrayner: Removed, Darouet: Restored, Volunteer Marek: Removed.

and here: Tobby72: Added poll, Volunteer Marek: Removed, MyMoloboaccount: Restored, RGloucester: Removed. Haberstr: Restored, Volunteer Marek: Removed.

Further discussion here:

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard – Ukraine conflict.

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard – Continued POV-pushing – May 2015.

Talk:2014–15 Russian military intervention in Ukraine – Breedlove, Soros, Der Spiegel

Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation - POV blanking

Talk:War in Donbass – POV blanking of sourced material

User talk:EdJohnston - Volunteer Marek – 2

At least 12 editors: MyMoloboaccount, Tosha, Anonimski, Darouet, Buzz105, Jirka.h23, Herzen, Haberstr, HCPUNXKID, Leftcry, KoolerStill, Lunch for Two, seem to agree with me.

I totally agree with User:Darouet:[17]

To be honest, looking through many of the edits discussed here, it doesn't seem to me that Tobby72 is editing from a "pro-Kremlin" perspective. Often, their edits are qualifying or simply represent the "other side," without removing material. By contrast, RGloucester, Marek, raynor, Tlsandy appear to view the mere inclusion of other perspectives, including from major politicians, news sources, or even public opinion polls, as intolerable. All of us have responsibility for maintaining a neutral point of view and a friendly editing environment. I'm afraid that by repeatedly sanctioning this kind of editing we've enabled behavior that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else on this encyclopedia, and encourages only the most partisan editors to enter into the fray. That is *not* the decision we need to make.

Is there anything that either I or an admin can do about continuous POV pushing and removal of sourced material?

Thanks for taking a look and sharing your opinion. -- Tobby72 (talk) 22:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Can you make a list of involved articles?

This one is odd.

What is he talking about when he talks about "discussed, agreed upon"? Can you find out?

Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 23:21, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

What he probably means is Talk:Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation – POV blanking

or Latest outrage: excluding opinion polls that show Crimeans overwhelmingly support unification with Russia

Yet another person who has doubts - diff, diff.

The (probably incomplete) list:

• Donetsk People's Republic, * War in Donbass, * Right Sector, * 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine, * 2014–15 Russian military intervention in Ukraine, * Republic of Crimea, * Crimean status referendum, 2014, * Humanitarian situation during the war in Donbass, * Freedom of the press in Ukraine, * Ihor Kolomoyskyi, * Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, * 2014 Ukrainian revolution, * 2014 Odessa clashes. -- Tobby72 (talk) 01:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Add *Federal Reserve System to your list. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 17:01, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not sure if you're going to get "as many uninvolved admins as possible" User:Tobby72 but I'm certainly an uninvolved long-term editor in good standing; I took a look and am willing to share my opinion. I picked an article at random which you fought for in one of your edit wars very recently. It is called "Breedlove's Bellicosity," Spiegel Online, March 6, 2015. What I found was a piece of low-brow tabloid stock journalism with expressions like: "hawks in Washington", "Putin, the 59-year-old ... upped the ante", "The Super Hawk", the 'Super Hawk' Victoria Nuland", "False claims and exaggerated accounts" (!) from NATO ... and on, and on. – Do you realize Tobby72 that the real problem might actually be you, and not the Wikipedians in your laundry basket? Poeticbent talk 00:39, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion (though I don't think Der Spiegel is tabloid). -- Tobby72 (talk) 01:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Bottom line, this is a content dispute, well beyond the scope of ANI. There is nothing "actionable" for Admins here. You would have thought that might have sunk in when Admin EdJohnston took no action (and, in fact, didn't even comment on his Talk page)... --IJBall (talk) 02:03, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Other editors' comments:

• User:Haberstr — In conclusion, obviously Volunteer Marek is putting a lot of effort into pushing me and other editors who do not share his point of view away from editing Ukraine-related articles. This is part of a long-standing practice on his and like-minded editors part, and the results are horribly POV Ukraine-related articles. He and like-minded editors do this through these repetitive, hostile, and time-wasting appeals for administrative action, through creating extremely toxic, abusive-language filled and bad-faith-assuming environments on talk pages, and by reverting even the most innocuous edits by editors who do not share their POV. I suggest surveying his style and behavior and applying sanctions on Marek in order to deter his worst excesses.[18]

• User:MyMoloboaccount — There is definitely a issue in these articles being edited by dedicated users who have certain POV. Tobby72 is right that this violates NPOV and other guidelines. There have been numerous examples where reliable sources and information has been removed time and time again under flimsy pretexts, and attempts to present a more nuanced view with neutral description have been opposed, at times very aggressive and with use of vulgarisms.[19]

• User:Darouet: — To be honest, looking through many of the edits discussed here, it doesn't seem to me that Tobby72 is editing from a "pro-Kremlin" perspective. Often, their edits are qualifying or simply represent the "other side," without removing material. By contrast, RGloucester, Marek, raynor, Tlsandy appear to view the mere inclusion of other perspectives, including from major politicians, news sources, or even public opinion polls, as intolerable.[20]

• User:Tosha — I support Tobby72. All my attempts to make this article neutral were failed. IMHO this article is shame for wikipedia. Returning POV tag is the least we can do.[21] -- Tobby72 (talk) 12:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I have to disagree with IJBall that this is a content dispute, and I truly hope that Tobby72 gets clobbered by the boomerang s/he deserves. Tobby72 is WP:FORUMSHOPPING yet again, and I will reiterate the differences provided by that editor in order that it be evaluated from the forum shopping perspective: see this, this, this and this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. This is not indicative of a content dispute, but Tobby72's refusing to accept NPOV and trying to WP:CRUSH any opposition to their POV.

Tobby72, you keep bringing the same differences to talk pages and other boards, invoking comments by users over a protracted period of time (that is, over at least a year's worth of discussion and editing) including editors who have been sanctioned from editing Eastern European articles. You consistently fail to respond to observations that these comments and edits are not indicative of the true consensus of dozens of other editors who have developed the articles on a regular/daily basis. You've also continuously PUSHed the limits as regards gaming the system, ducking in and out of editing various articles surrounding recent events in Ukraine every time you understand that you've become too obtrusive. Taking a very short-term break from your involvement when EdJohnston was involved in examining your editing patterns was an unabashedly cynical act of trying to fly under the radar.

At best, you are a disruptive editor on Eastern European articles. Such an evaluation of the NOTHERE gaming is, however, an underestimation of your forum shopping, crying incivility, and casting WP:ASPERSIONS about numerous editors. There is nothing honest about your approach in order to wear your perceived 'opponents' down. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:00, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Note: Iryna Harpy is editor directly involved in constant edit-warring & removal of sourced content, see diff, diff, diff, diff diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff. -- Tobby72 (talk) 12:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

This is an issue that goes back a long way and needs to be acknowledged and addressed by Marek so we can all move forward. Quis separabit? 13:00, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

If there is anything here for attention by administrators (I do not really see it), this should be brought to AP:AE, as author of this request should be well aware. Linking to discussions with an administrator who is active on WP:AE, but bringing this here is a battleground approach and waste of time. My very best wishes (talk) 13:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Note to uninvolved editors: Edit-warring & removal of sourced material by User:My very best wishes. This is what I've been talking about, see diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff, diff diff, diff, diff, diff, diff. -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - The original post is Too long, difficult to read. In addition, it is my opinion that bringing alleged conduct disputes about Eastern Europe to this board is either misguided or an attempt to create drama. The last that I looked, Ukraine is still in Eastern Europe, so that WP:ARBEE applies. If there really is a conduct issue, take it to Arbitration Enforcement for decisive action by effective uninvolved admins. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion, Robert! -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

This is a classic WP:ARBEE problem. I think that Tobby72 would benefit from a trip to arbitration enforcement, sooner rather than later. bobrayner (talk) 17:19, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Are these edits legitimate?: diff, diff, diff, diff, diff — "rv the usual Serb sock" - WP:WIAPA?, diff — "rv the usual Serb sock", diff — "rv stalker." - WP:ESDOS?, diff — "restoring sourced content. Quit it." - WP:RS?. -- Tobby72 (talk) 19:33, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Toby72, you really need to drop it. NOT ONLY have you been told more than a half a dozen times that consensus is against you, but you've ALSO been told more than a half a dozen times (that's not hyperbole, it *really* has been more than that) to quit it with the endless, time wasting, tendentious, obnoxious and tedious WP:FORUMSHOPPING. You not only have maxed out the violations of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and plain ol' disruptive editing, you're well into the WP:NOTHERE territory. I.e. your value added to this project is significantly negative.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

What consensus am I violating? Please provide me the related talk page discussion where a consensus is found. Clearly there is no consensus among editors. -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:15, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Archive or boomerang?

There's clearly nothing to do here unless the OP needs a boomerang block for forum shopping and trying to abuse process to gain advantage in a content dispute. Guy (Help!) 22:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

There's good reason for a boomerang but a warning may simply be effective if they have not done anything like this before.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Considering this appears to be a long-term pattern with the original poster, I'd recommend something like a final warning from an Admin, along with a close of this... --IJBall (talk) 23:30, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

I will respect your decision, whatever it may be, but does it mean that you've sanctioned behaviour of Volunteer Marek, Iryna Harpy and similarly minded editors i.e. massive, systematic removal of well sourced material with a POV they dislike? Ukraine-related articles have been jealously guarded by several editors who have certain POV and any attempt to improve has been blocked. You're shooting the messenger and assuming bad faith on my part instead of focusing on the real issue. -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:15, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

While I'd accept a final warning, I have sincere and well founded reasons to believe that the user will resume the same disruptive pattern after X period of time in order to allow their battleground attitude to have 'gone away', and believe that boomerang is in order. Recent good faith opportunities have been proffered (such as this), and multiple warnings have been issued on the various talk pages. I'll provide a comprehensive list of diffs if it's deemed to be necessary, but prefer to keep this comment as brief as possible at this point.

The fact of the matter is that this is not a unique event in Tobby72's editing behaviour as regards AE articles. This is evidenced by the user's last interactions on recent events surrounding the crisis in Ukraine around the end of 2014, whereupon the user recognised that s/he was on the brink of being taken before an ANI or AE and backed off, only to resume activities a few months later (such as here).

While I recognise that Tobby72 is encouraged/egged on by other problem contributors, the user is hardly a newbie, and there is no excuse for usurping civil discussions as to content with tracts of examples of 'dissent' by POV editors cherry picked from over a year's discussion, as exemplified here. This has undoubtedly impacted on new contributors backing away from good faith editing and discussion of controversial topics here on 24 March 2015 (see this new contributor's edit history here, with Tobby72 (in tandem with others on 31 March 2015) having created a toxic talk page atmosphere where genuine attempts to discuss issues are consistently disrupted in an unmistakeably WP:POINTy manner. This is why Tobby72 and the other editor were brought to EdJohnston's attention on his talk page.

On a final note, even the excerpt from user Darouet is misleading, having been cherry picked to make a POINT. In fact, Darouet's observation was directed to me. The full comment here was a good faith attempt to engage with me on the NPOV/N as I have a good and respectful working relationship with the user, as with other editors who are HERE whether or not we agree on content issues. I'm sorry to say that I didn't respond there simply because the so-called discussion was being falsely kept from being archived by means of gaming. Should Darouet be reading this, I extend my sincerest apologies as I was not avoiding him/her, but was not prepared to duplicitously resuscitate a FORUMSHOPPING section. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:05, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Iryna, may I remind you that the assumption of good faith is a core principle here.

The severe toxicity of the Ukraine-related articles where genuine attempts to discuss issues are consistently disrupted can be seen here. -- Tobby72 (talk) 11:15, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

@Tobby72:, one point here: good faith tends to expire when Tendentious editing takes place. You have been told repeatedly that Consensus is against you in including that reference, as it's considered to be WP:UNDUE – at this point, it's best to Drop the stick, and move on. Failure to do so could probably be considered "bad faith". Bottom line: you're not going to win every argument on Wikipedia, even when you think you are "right". --IJBall (talk) 16:47, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I think it's a good idea. -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:10, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Couple of rangeblocks needed

Well, it looks like I've managed to upset someone, and now I have the pleasure of being hounded by an IP user hopping across a couple of ranges. From what I'm seeing, the ranges are pretty much 63.141.204.xxx and 216.177.129.xxx. Could someone help out and drop a couple of rangeblocks down to stop this silliness please? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:11, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Well, we have a new IP in this farce: 98.124.175.25 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
• IPs all ping back, so far at least, to either nLayer Communications or AS Areti Internet Ltd. Are these proxy providers? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:38, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
• Latest range is definitely 98.124.175.xxx. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:42, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

@Lukeno94: I can only find 3 IPs in that range, giving 98.124.175.0/24 (covers 256 IP addresses). Have you got any other candidates in that range? --Diannaa (talk) 00:54, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• As far as I can tell, they're all pretty small ranges right now. The WHOIS data for some of the IPs in this range doesn't even seem to exist yet; for example, 98.124.175.69 didn't produce much of the more detailed parts on the WHOIS check (ie, the bits in the dark grey box) when I first checked it. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:57, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• @Diannaa: They haven't given up on the old ranges yet, as evidenced by 63.141.204.170 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 01:04, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes I saw that. I did 63.141.204.0/24; 216.177.129.0/24; 98.124.175.0/24, all for 24 hours. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:09, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Perfect, thanks. I can now go to bed in peace! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 01:11, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Heh, looks like they're back, and are now taking more care to make themselves less detectable/predictable. So far today, I've had 85.9.20.151 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), which is a Romanian CyberGhost IP (which will therefore need blocking, as will any IP on that range - CyberGhost is a VPN), and 95.141.29.55 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), which is a Luxembourg Kaia Global Networks Ltd IP. @Diannaa: to make you aware of this change. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:38, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
• 208.31.49.20 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is the latest - Kaia Global Networks Ltd. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
• 208.31.49.58 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) gives us confirmation that there is a blockable range there. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:09, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

@Lukeno94: Just got back from the symphony, it looks like the activity stopped about 30 minutes ago (likely because you too stopped editing). Range for these two is 208.31.49.0/26 (covers just 64 IP addresses). I'm not inclined to block unless the activity resumes. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:55, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• That's fine, just want to make sure that you're up to date on what was going on. :) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Now back as 95.141.31.8 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), an Italian Kaia Global Networks IP. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 06:53, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Drmargi yet again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

drmargi has a serious issue with WP:NPA and insults. It all started when with a currently closed ANI report made by User:Unframboise. Like any user, some would add input on the situation, and I did. Although, this user's behavior is far from appropriate and tolerant. On their talk page, they insulted the user Unframboise for being from the UK and has no acknowledgement on American entertainment here here. I brought this issue up on my comment from the ANI report, citing that it does not matter where you're from to edit on Wikipedia for whatever. I even asked them that I am from Canada, does this apply to me as well? I thoroughly explained that the user followed every guideline from WP:SOURCES and WP:Verify. I told them that you don't need to be American to participate on American-based articles from media to people to law and so on. However, they have continued to insult the users involved in the report and/or the discussion of the talk page from the ANI report. This is their message. They called the users petulant, adolescents, and accused me of making the ANI report about myself. This threw me off guard as I did not think a person with over 25k edits would violate WP:NPA. I became offended, since their personal attacks were getting out of hand. I warned them on their talk page per WP:NPA. I explained that their insults were unnecessary and uncivil. I again told them that it does not matter what your age is, the number of edits you have, the years of experience, your current status on Wikipedia or where you're from to edit on Wikipedia. I recommended them to learn to calm down when users are complaining about them. One is more than capable to say otherwise other than insults. I gave them one warning before I reported. However, they removed the warning and insulted me once again per their edit summary: "How infantile can you be? A bit of Extra-Strength "Teen Spirit" Troll Be Gone handles those without the maturity to know what they're talking about." by calling me infantile and so on. Then after noticing them of the ANI report, they claimed it as childish here. This behavior is seriously unacceptable, especially when handling ANI reports. This user clearly shows signs of not being able to be calm and handle reports properly. I am at a loss on what to do after trying to reason with them and show them that insulting users is not the right path, but they have continued to do so. Callmemirela (Talk) 03:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I concur with Callmemirela's assessment of Drmargi's personal attacks and insults. Even after a cool down period, her comments to and about other editors seem to be getting worse rather than better. Frankly, I would expect better behavior from someone who has been a Wikipedia editor for more than 8 years and advertises on their user page as having a doctorate in psychology. They've been reminded very recently that making such cutting remarks in talk pages and in edit summaries rather than discussing civilly on talk pages is preferable [22]. As the report above documents, they have not heeded that advice. I have no desire to see Drmargi blocked or sanctioned, but I would like to see her be nicer to editors. Curt and cold is one thing. She's just rude and mean spirited way too frequently, in my opinion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:47, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any real evidence here. I looked at the Drmargi and I'm not seeing him insult anyone for being from the UK.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 05:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

It's no exactly an insult, but rather what comes after that. Drmargi used the argument that Umfranboise is from the UK to claim they have no acknowledgement of American entertainment here. Is there a rule against English editors to edit on American articles? No. Callmemirela (Talk) 09:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I've never seen any evidence of Drmargi insulting me, so I don't understand the claim that she has. From what I can gather, this is an ongoing issue arising from the attempts by some editors to change content at CSI: Cyber based on some pretty weak sources. Drmargi has asked repeatedly for other editors to let the issue go (it was supposedly resolved) but it just continues. --AussieLegend (✉) 09:26, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Here: "But you can't discuss when three petulant adolescents are throwing insults at one another, two of whom are unwilling to abide by a litany of editing, civility and discussion practices, and the third of whom is just in it to win at any cost. (Leaving aside the fourth adolescent who decided to make it all about her on ANI.)" You were apart of the discussion and there were four users (including myself) adding input on the report... Looking back, I suppose this is about the article and not the ANI report? Nonetheless, it still contains insults. I would have known if this was for the ANI report or the article if the user would just compromise instead of calling me infantile, claiming that I don't know what I am talking about and whatnot. Callmemirela (Talk) 09:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I didn't participate in the discussion at Talk:CSI: Cyber. My only contribution to the page was adding {{reflist talk}} to fix the position of some references.[23] My contributions at the ANI discussions were almost as minimal,[24][25] so I doubt it was me that was being referred to. --AussieLegend (✉) 13:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I meant the discussion on the ANI report about Drmargi made by Unframboise, not the discussion on the talk page. Regardless, I don't know who the insults were directed at, but it had targets. I'll remove that section of my report, but I stand on the insults. Callmemirela (Talk) 14:14, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

No, Callmemirela, you misunderstand the UK statement. They are indicating that the Editor they are talking about knows nothing about American Entertainment. The Possible reason for this lack of knowledge is because the person is from the UK. They aren't suggesting that English folks can't edit an American article. Your English language comprehension seems to be a little lacking. You are picking up on things that aren't there. The other comments don't seem to be actionable either. I would recommend that you drop this. There is no exemption for reporters.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 10:35, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

The UK comment is rather offensive. It doesn't matter where you're from to edit on Wikipedia. Just because you're from the UK it doesn't mean you shouldn't edit on American articles or you don't know anything about American entertainment and so on. I'm from Canada, does it apply to me as well? That's what pisses me off with that comment. Quite frankly, I am not dropping this because Drmargi is rather rude and uncivil with people. Calling people adolescents, petulants, selfish, childish? There are more ways to communicate with people rather than using insults. If anyone is capable to communicate properly, so could have Drmargi. This is why I brought it here. I could only imagine their insults getting worse or never stops as the years go on (personal opinion). Drmargi could have easily set the situation straight and told me otherwise. The user refused and insulted me. Again, WP:NPA. Callmemirela (Talk) 13:41, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Once again, Deadline.com is not a "weak" source. Beyond that, I agree that other editors should let this go, and disengage for a while. If any patterns of behavior continue, they are free to return to ANI with the evidence at a later date. --IJBall (talk) 16:35, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with Callmemirela, after looking through the editors last 50 edits everyone of them are basically made to "pick fights" with others users. --BabbaQ (talk) 06:50, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I find User:Drmargi's statement about adolescent extremely offensive and think that Wikipedia is no place for such comments. Whatismore, she has previously threatened me on my talk page that I will get a warning if I continue to act like I do, so shouldn't this be a two-way street? Shouldn't she be forced to follow the same rules and be sanctioned in the same way when she fails to? The worst thing is, that she is obviously aware of her inappropriate behaviour, since she keeps pointing users to WP:NPA and WP:CIV. Is she allowed to say/do whatever she wants just because she is a Senior Editor?

And personally, I find the connection between a country of residence (UK) and "country of the article" (USA) offensive, too. Sources we were all citing are Internet sources, available worldwide to everyone, why should someone who is physically closer to the source have more knowledge about its reliability? I mean, is it more qualified to judge Hollywood Reporter someone from Tijuana (because he's closer) or someone from New York (because he's in the same country)? Irrelevant if you ask me...

Also, about her involvement in discussions about articles' edits. She tends to revert changes and point the users to the Talk page, where she states she does not agree with the edit and the disappears, with that she fails to comply with WP:BRD and with WP:CON and ultimately, she is taking advantage of WP:STATUSQUO because the article can't be edited until consensus has been achieved, and it can't be achieved if one side of the discussions is not even involved in it. Maticsg1 (talk) 09:51, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

99.228.128.219

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

99.228.128.219 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been reverted multiple times at, for example, Prince George of Cambridge and Princess Charlotte of Cambridge, and has received multiple messages from editors bringing attention to the need for sources, edit summaries and communication. Regardless, the same information has once again been added to both articles[26][27] without an edit summary or any post on either the article talk page or the IP's talk page. Unsourced information,[28] which is in fact wrong,[29] is also being added to other articles. This is disruptive, and I would like to ask for this IP to be blocked. DrKiernan (talk) 07:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Just in case it's not clear why this is a problem, there may be a WP:COMPETENCE issue here, as George and Charlotte are not the first great-grandchildren of the Queen, the first great-grandchildren are the children of Peter Phillips. It's an easy enough error to make, but one should listen when it's pointed out rather than doggedly continuing on the same course. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 12:32, 24 May 2015 (UTC).

Comment I see plenty of warnings placed on the IPs talk page but do not see evidence of any attempt being made to educate or correct the user. I would not support an indefinite ban/block in a case that I am uncertain whether the editor concerned has been made aware of the extent of the problem. The IP has done ~250 royal related edits. I'm not sure of the proportion of the edits are problematic. GregKaye 15:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand what is being suggested as a remedy here? The editor continues to add erroneous, trivial, redundant or inappropriate information to articles on royalty despite being reverted and having it repeatedly explained what the objections are, mainly in the edit summaries but also on the talk page. Since no response is ever provided, on edit summaries or talk pages, what are we supposed to do to stop the disruptions, which require others to check and correct repeatedly and on an ongoing basis? FactStraight (talk) 23:59, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked 24 hours for disruptive editing. This editor has never left a post on a talk page of any kind, and has never responded to any of the concerns expressed on their own talk. We can't afford to delegate experienced content people to follow this person around to see if they are inserting nonsense to articles. EdJohnston (talk) 00:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:DylanMcKaneWiki and the Celtic Phoenix article

• DylanMcKaneWiki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 109.79.4.116 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Celtic Phoenix (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Post-2008 Irish economic downturn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Post-2008 Irish banking crisis (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

DylanMcKaneWiki joined Wikipedia about a month ago and immediately started moving articles around. There were a number of issues with cut-and-paste moves and non-standard titles. Things generally settled down. Then he started the Celtic TigerCeltic Phoenix article—if we assume good faith, it's a split, but it leans into the realm of a POV fork to prevent only the good side of the recovery. That article has been tagged for a prospective merge into the article on Ireland's economy for a few days.

For the past few days, he has shown a pattern of editing while logged out, primarily with the IP listed above. If you look at the edit times over the past 24–48 hours, it's almost a clean handoff every time one or the other starts editing.

Today, he declared that he was giving in and allowing the merge to go ahead.[30] So, the logged-in Dylan proceeded to merge the article. The IP then unwound the merge, and Dylan logged back in to proclaim he'd changed his mind.[31]

Frankly, that was a bridge too far: the number of articles and templates he's edited in the last few hours will be daunting to correct for all of his edits. While I'd like to assume good faith that he just keeps getting logged out, it's starting to look like there's some intent to disrupt the encyclopedia with his edits—almost to the point of intentionally logging out to avoid scrutiny. Maybe I'm reading too much in, but at the least, he needs some good guidance on how to work constructively with other editors. —C.Fred (talk) 19:48, 24 May 2015 (UTC), amended 15:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Guliolopez has tried to engage with him, offering tips and advice. I admit to being snarky with him, but have also latterly offered advice, pointed out some of the problems with his editing, etc. Dylan rarely engages (only interaction with his talk page has been to blank it), and when he does it's to talk about us leaving "his" article alone diff. The cut-and-paste page moves have been problematic, the ownership is an obvious issue, as is logging out to perform edits/avoid his earlier block. A more serious problem is the complete ignoring of WP:NPOV. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 20:02, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

When I looked at his talk page before he deleted most of the content, I see a string of warnings for the past three weeks, asking and even pleading with him not to do moves which mess up the edit history of the page. It seems like this has happened on multiple occasions. Have you seen any improvement, C.Fred? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:13, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't so much say he improved through the first part of May as his editing just quieted down and there were fewer problems. He went away from the economics articles and focused on shopping centres. —C.Fred (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, there was no improvements just because he lowered his amount of disruption. I feel a long-term block is required as it is more and more evident from the several warnings he recieved that he has no intention to learn from mistakes and cooperate with others.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:03, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Note, this dispute is about the Celtic Phoenix article, not the Celtic Tiger article, which DylanMcKaneWiki does not appear to have edited, but which would be a good merge target. Paul B (talk) 10:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's (mainly) about the Celtic Phoenix article, but DylanMcKaneWiki has edited Celtic Tiger, too, albeit when logged out - see this diff from 15th May is an insertion that adds in a 'See main article: Celtic Phoenix' template, for example, and there are more. The "109.7*.*.*" addresses that edited Celtic Tiger are the ones also disruptively editing Celtic Phoenix. WP:DUCK. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

And checking what links to Celtic Phoenix, I've found that the IP and/or editor concerned has inserted a chunk of text (that completely ignores WP:NPOV, WP:RECENT and WP:CRYSTAL) into many articles, which includes a "See main article Celtic Phoenix" template, rather than directing readers to Economy of the Republic of Ireland. The chunk had been pasted into Economic history of the Republic of Ireland, History of the Republic of Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Post-2008 Irish economic downturn. This is a definite PoV fork... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:05, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

OK, I added the above note because this section was originally entitled by C.Fred "User:DylanMcKaneWiki and the Celtic Tiger article" with a link to Celtic Tiger below, and the inaccurate statement that "he started the Celtic Tiger article". Obviously just an accidental slip up on C.Fred's part, but there was no reference to Celtic Phoenix at all in the thread. I changed the title and link so the comment now seems semi-irrelevant. Paul B (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, my bad. I had been trying to see what existed on ga.wikipedia; there is an article on the Tiger but not the Phoenix, so I crossed them up in my brain. Sorry about that. Paul B, feel free to whack me with a trout (which happens to be one of the main aquaculture products of Ireland, but I digress). —C.Fred (talk) 15:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Could an admin also semi-protect Post-2008 Irish economic downturn, please? It's currently got one whole page of edits by this user (both logged in and not), some small changes, some serious, many removing significant content, and what appears to be efforts to remove/alter admin-only templates. Most edits done with no edit summary. This is extremely disruptive editing. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

And now we have a page move - 2008–13 Irish economic downturn, because in Dylan's PoV, the downturn ended then. He has been repeatedly asked and warned not to do page moves like this, especially moves that may be controversial (and instead to use the requested moves procedure), and he simply can't be unaware that this wouldn't be uncontroversial, especially given it's talk page. Can an admin please do something about this? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I've unwound the move. @Bastun: Had he been warned about the moving process and using WP:RM before? I know he's gotten prior warnings related to page moves, but I thought those were cut-and-paste moves. —C.Fred (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Nope, he did another cut-and-paste move today: Post-2008 Irish banking crisis. —C.Fred (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, he has certainly been warned about them before, and I've requested him to use WP:RM. See also his talk page on 1st May and your own prior warning to him. I'm a little too busy right now to hunt down diffs for the WP:RM warnings/requests, though. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:41, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Again - can an admin please add semi-protection to Post-2008 Irish economic downturn - Dylan (logged out) is repeatedly removing Financial crisis from the article, not using edit summaries, not genuinely engaging on talk page, etc. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 21:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Have added Post-2008 Irish banking crisis to the list above. Similar logged out edits, again removing Financial crisis from the article, without consensus and in breach of NPOV. (A parliamentary committee was told just yesterday that over 110,000 Irish mortgages are in arrears... that should be of concern to the banks...) Can semi-protection be added to this one, too? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Ban on Ronn Torossian to be extended to his company?

Ronn Torossian is both a notable PR person and an Wikipedia editor with a long history of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry that saw them banned from Wikipedia. That obviously didn't stop them from editing Wikipedia. Now I can to some degree understand that Mr. Torossian is unhappy with our article about him, though it's well-sourced and legal threats are not acceptable. However, his latest spate of sockpuppets or meatpuppets also engaged in a smear campaign against Torossian's personal and professional opponents, including various competitors of his company 5W PR and the New Israel Fund, an organization Torossian criticized over their politics at that time. In fact, here is the Torossian sock (or meatpuppet) citing a Torossian-written opinion piece to add negative content to a direct competitor. And for good measure, an utterly deceptive edit summary by that same sock. Another sock edited an article on a 5W PR client without disclosing their affiliation, in violation of the terms of use. For quite some time I have tolerated Torossian's sockpuppetry since there were some genuine BLP concerns in his article. However, his criticism of that article doesn't stop there, and his company seems to routinely engage in abuse of Wikipedia for unethical purposes, in violation of both our content policies and the Terms of Use. As I said Torossian himself is banned already. I hereby propose extending that ban to all of 5W Public Relations and its employees, along the lines of Wiki-PR. That would include User:Judae1 who serves as the "good hand" account while his co-workers engage in meatpuppetry and deception; at the very least he should be topic-banned from anything related to Torossian, 5W PR and its clients, widely construed. I see no reason to tolerate 5W PR abusing Wikipedia any more than we did Wiki-PR. Huon (talk) 23:13, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

and no the bio is not well sourced. Deal with that. There is a press release, a gossip blog and a random website now used as sources and no one cares to correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support extending ban to all who identify as editing on behalf of the company. I also support a widely construed topic ban from anything that could benefit from, be harmed by or be the subject of any public relations, including any living or recently deceased people, organizations and products, that applies to all 5W PR employees, enforceable by an indefinite block from any administrator. Wikipedia is not a place meant to be used by PR companies to further their interests. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 23:41, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

This is Ronn Torossian I am being slammed unfairly on my page so how does one deal with blatant untruths. Judae1 identified himself as best I understand. Rather unclear how you people propose to have edits handled if you refuse to acknowledge a living person being attacked without sources and links - as is now done on the page. I am commenting on the talk page which is what I am supposed to do as I understand and for that you want to ban me. IS this North Korea? Ronn Torossian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 23:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

PhantomTech, that is an incredibly broad brush, requiring admins to know everyone who might be an employee of this company (how exactly?) as well as their usernames and also anticipate any people, organization or product that could be the subject of an edit by these editors/IPs. I don't disagree with the intent of the ban, it just seems, pragmatically, unworkable and unenforceable except in the most egregious and obvious instances. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 10:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: I don't think it would be much more difficult than the proposed ban of all employees, but I agree that either would be difficult to enforce fully, an editor who is here with good faith could probably slip through without much difficulty but I don't think we should prevent those types of editors from editing because of the actions of their employer. As to determining which people, organizations or products could be the subject of edits by these editors, the easiest thing, though maybe not the best thing, to do would be to consider all living or recently deceased people, organizations and products as covered by the topic ban only leaving subjects open that unambiguously could not be the subject of PR, like space. Though, looking back at the responses, it does seem that one editor in particular may be unfairly affected by any sort of company wide restrictions, that, combined with your concerns, is making me doubt that my suggestion is the best solution. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not seeing any evidence to the claim of sockpuppetry for Albertoein526. SPA perhaps, but an ill-advised orphan tag removal doesn't prove or suggest sockpuppetry, nor have you presented evidence showing that Albertoein526 works for 5W PR. Or am I missing something?It's at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Babasalichai. I'm also not seeing any evidence presented for any wrongdoing by Judae1, who has been open about his CoI on his user page since 2006. While I did not have time to examine his edits more thoroughly, xtools report does not seem to show many edits to articles where he has a conflict of interest. 5W_Public_Relations is on the list of most edited articles, but all the ones I checked were non-controversial maintenance (e.g. updating logo, updating numbers, repairing links, non-controversial minor grammar fixes). Can you please provide examples where Judae1 has edited in bad faith? ― Padenton|✉   23:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Nvm on Albertoein, found it at WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Babasalichai. Not seeing bad faith edits by Judae1 though still. Editing from same IP perhaps, but the editing behavior doesn't seem at all the same from what I looked at. ― Padenton|✉   00:29, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

It would also be helpful if someone could look at these BLP concerns. While "Ronn Torossian"'s concerns may not have been helped by the attitude with which he brought them up, they do seem to have some merit. For starters, I am not sure that a gawker writer is a reliable source for negative opinions of BLPs (as being used here Ronn_Torossian#Reception) and the inclusion of some criticisms in the Ronn_Torossian#Politics section bothers me, especially since the largest paragraph by far is entirely about his days as an undergraduate. At some point I wonder whether the goal here is to provide encyclopedic coverage of!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> him or to find any criticism we can that has a reliable source. Then it says "his politics created controversy for one of his clients, Birthright Israel, when it selected 5W to represent it". Looking at the source, the entirety of said "controversy" appears to be some activist and 'journalist' "started an online petition" and a rabbi who "posted a long item on his blog". ― Padenton|✉   00:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I own a $20MM company and employ 120 people. These 20 year old stories are half truths. I never burnt a flag like they say - and of course there is no source for it, yet it remains.

Further, I won PR professional of the year and am in TV and newspaper every day for non Israel related matters. Why does things from 1995 define me? Its not why I am noteable - and there's no sources. Its simply meant to harm me 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 00:54, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I've mentioned this in the article talk page, but Gawker's reliability is misrepresented here. There was a time when it was a gossip blog, but by the time Hamilton Nolan (author of the piece) joined, its editorial approach had changed to be more like an actual news organization with its own reporting and editorial policies. Nolan specifically is someone who covered the PR industry before Gawker, so his opinions on PR executives are more informed than Mr. Torossian would have you believe. On the politics section, I don't know enough to comment either way. Mosmof (talk) 02:43, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

In 2007 when Gawker wrote that it was very much a small organization as any number of sources would advise. Its a salicious blog gossip and surely unworthy of a entrée in a BLP. Further, there's numerous unsourced comments that should be removed entirerly. One wonders why the largest section in my biography (I AM 40 years old) is from when I was 20. COme on folks. Its not what I am noteable for. RONN TOROSSIAN 165.254.85.130 (talk) 03:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

As said above " I am not sure that a gawker writer is a reliable source for negative opinions of BLPs (as being used here Ronn_Torossian#Reception) and the inclusion of some criticisms in the Ronn_Torossian#Politics section bothers me, especially since the largest paragraph by far is entirely about his days as an undergraduate. At some point I wonder whether the goal here is to provide encyclopedic coverage of him or to find any criticism we can that has a reliable source. Then it says "his politics created controversy for one of his clients, Birthright Israel, when it selected 5W to represent it". Looking at the source, the entirety of said "controversy" appears to be some activist and 'journalist' "started an online petition" and a rabbi who "posted a long item on his blog"."

PLEASE HELP AND HANDLE THAT ISSUE !!! Ronn Torossian 165.254.85.130 (talk) 03:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@Mosmof: It doesn't really matter how 'informed' Hamilton Nolan is on PR executives. Having covered the PR field before does not mean he is an objective expert on the people in that field. And I don't know how old you think Gawker is, Gawker has always been tabloid journalism, up to and including recent years, so certainly during the period this article was written, early 2008. I have no idea what reform you think it went through between its creation in 2003 and early 2008. The very premise of Gawker has always been 'gossip blog', hence it comes in conflict with WP:NOTGOSSIP. ― Padenton|✉   04:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Sure, Gawker is still in some ways a gossip blog, but it's diversified beyond simply being a gossip site that you have to take each article for what it is - Nolan's cultural critique pieces are nothing like the early Sicha/Spires/Coen posts that simply snarked on New York media figures.

Plus, the direct source of that quote is actually Adweek, which I think is a reliable source for reporting on people in the communications industries. Mosmof (talk) 04:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Judae1, I at a glance didn't see much of an issue with his edits either. Since deception and disruption seem his company's default means of operation on Wikipedia, and this isn't the fist time they're caught at misrepresenting their opponents online, I thought a topic ban might suffice to keep the problems afflicting his co-workers from spilling over to Engelmayer's Wikipedia career. At a closer look, however, he's routinely violating the Terms of Use by editing articles on a 5WPR's clients without disclosing that connection, say here (see above for "client" status), here (evidence for "client" status, and that was a blatantly promotional edit, too) and here (Peebles' company is mentioned as a 5WPR client here, and by now I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the editor who edited that article immediately before Judae1, a single-purpose account, also was a 5WPR sock). Thus I see no reason to exclude Engelmayer from a ban on that company. We don't really need editors where whe have to wonder with every edit whether they're adding content in good faith or are promoting a client.

Regarding Torossian's latest claims of "no sources", that's blatantly untrue unless one thinks that paper doesn't exist. The press release he considers unreliable and complains about is, ironically, his own. I'll gladly discusss BLP issues at the article talk page, and I dare say that talk page history will show that I was quite accomodating of Torossian's point of view in the past, so much so that other editors accused me of being in league with him (and in fact he did ask me to email him, which I declined). Huon (talk) 03:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)\

It is not blatantly untrue that you cant use press releases. Nor that Gawker is a blog, nor that I never burnt a flag. I own a $20MM company and you are talking about things 20 years ago and theres not even a link - NO SOURCE - for multiple comments you are claiming. Its scandalous and liberlous. Its lies. THERE IS NO SOURCE TO SAY I BURNT A FLAG. DO YOU EVEN CHECK THESE ABSURD CLAIMS YOU ARE MAKING. THERE IS NO LINK NONE ZERO> ITS A LIE.

Please someone review it besides these obsessed editors. Ronn Torossian03:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Link #1: I don't really care about any off-wiki activity, nor do I see how their alleged unrelated behavior off-wiki should result in sanctions on-wiki. Also not sure what this article is saying, the only bit on Engelmayer is that an intern under his supervision had left internet comments under the names of other people (specifically including opponents). Not him.

Link #2: I'm not sure what the problem is with this one. From what I can see, it actually fixes promotional tone issues in the article.

Link #3 and 4: This edit may be an issue. I'll give you this one.

Link #5: Edit only splits refs into two columns and removes Template:BLP sources tag. Article at this revision has many sources, especially compared to what it looked like in December 2010 when the tag was added: Dec. 2010 rev.. Article has since added New York Times, The Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Whitehouse.gov, and many other sources.

Perhaps the Zeta Interactive edit is enough for a topic ban, I don't know. I would dispute the others being used as reasoning however. ― Padenton|✉   04:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, Support, and Suggest: On the one hand, I think Huon's proposal goes too far; on the other hand, I think it does not go far enough.

Regarding User:Judae1, he has proven himself consistently to be a valuable contributor to Wikipedia. He has adopted a strict hands-off policy regarding the article on Torossian. His edits to articles about 5W clients, while a violation of Wikipedia's conflict of interest rules, have never been blatantly promotional, but generally editorial.

So, in his case, I think that a censure or ban is uncalled for. This discussion should certainly have alerted him to the issue, and I believe that he will henceforth restrict his editing of 5W-related articles to the talk page, rather than the article itself.

As for Torossian, in his recent posts to the talk page of his article and his posts here, he has clearly identified himself with the community-banned Babasalichai. His illiterate puling makes intelligent discussion of the article content almost impossible. As someone who is community-banned, his posts should not be permitted. They should all be deleted immediately.

Finally, I want to second the opinion expressed by Padenton and repeat an apology that I made previously to Huon. When Huon started editing Torossian's article, he deleted everything related to Torossian's politics, and in general edited in a way that suggested to me that he was somehow influenced by Torossian himself. I was wrong, and recent edits to the article show that I was wrong with a vengeance: all the material on Torossian's political activities has been restored, and expanded on. So much so that I think the section on politics is excessive and unbalanced, and should be trimmed. Of course, it is almost impossible to discuss this in a rational way on the talk page as long as the Babasalichai sock (who now calls himself Torossian) keeps up his ranting. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Ravpapa as he calls himself is openly opposed to my politics. I am posting in my name and this Dungeons and Dragons style of childish games about my life is unacceptable. The simple fact remains that I am correcting what I am asserting happened in my life and its not being addressed. I never burned a flag ever - and there's not a source that says I did. Theres endless information on that page which has no sources and that should and must be addressed. And the simple fact remains that this has been discussed ad naseum on my page - and anyone not involved in politics will agree that posting endless 20 year old information from when I was 20 years old is overkill. Unfortunately if this matter isn't fixed there will have to be immediate outside action.

Wikipedia rules say remove libelous and inaccurate info immediately - which would include flag burning - and there's no source yet its not removed. One may be in their best interest to realize that. Please fix the page and reflect sources. There's not accurate ones now. 09:40, 25 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk)

Support company block At the help desk, 165.254.85.130 said they are Ronn Torossian- therefore it's clear block evasion. The only way to stop this sock/meat puppetry is to stop all the possible meatpuppets from editing. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:41, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I did say who I am. What is it that was edited by me. This is my real life. While for you its dungeons and dragons. I ask that someone simply review the material. I haven't edited anything and have said who I am when commenting. Ronn Torossian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 11:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

As an aside, no one disputes that I own one of the 20 largest PR firms in the US, with 120 employees and $20MM in revenue. Could not I assign someone on staff to do these things? Realize there is a real world off Wikipedia. No one is addressing the simple fact that there is stuff posted which is not reflective of truth. My bio focuses on things 20 years ago. Would I be on Wikipedia bio if I didn't own a PR agency? Gimme a break. Review my competitors they all have pages that focuses on what they do. 165.254.85.130 (talk) 11:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, the sockpuppet's claim that "no one disputes that I own one of the 20 largest PR firms in the US..." is not completely accurate. The Holmes report ranks 5WPR as 93rd in the world, and 51st in the United States. So at least one pretty reputable source disputes it.

Support company topic ban Particularly, I don't support banning them for Wikipedia entirely, I just support topic banning them from articles related to the ones Ronn Torossian has been editing. SilverSurfingSerpant (talk) 11:56, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support company topic ban It is surprising that a company would do this to themselves but their behavior leaves little option. Chillum 14:26, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support broad scope of ban, both subjects and editors. Rampant sock puppetry, blatant propaganda, legal posturing - everything Wikipedia does not need. Guy (Help!) 16:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support company topic ban. If the org in question was willing to go through our guidelines and ethos then follow them – this debate would not be necessary. After going through the posts & edits (during which time, I could have been doing something more useful) I think a company topic ban is more than justified.--Aspro (talk) 16:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Not sure where to post, but @Padenton: Torossian's political activism is not limited to his college days - if you see this talk page section, much of whose content hasn't made it to the article, Torossian's political activities attracted media attention till 2002. He graduated from SUNY Albany in 1995. In any case, if he was written about in reliable sources during his youth, it belongs here - sources don't become obsolete or unacceptable because they are 20 years old or offline, especially since what he has done afterwards hasn't attracted that much media attention. And I don't agree with his claim that he is only notable for owning a PR company, there are at least 30+ sources about his politics, and far fewer about his PR stuff. Many of these sources about his activism are English-language sources based in Israel, I can only imagine there will be many more Hebrew (and possibly Arabic) sources. Apart from a few profiles (NYT, Forward, Lifestyles Magazine) which also prominently mention his politics, the rest PR-related sources that come up are all about him being in the news because he is representing notable clients - from whom he doesn't inherit any notability. Those sources say nothing about Torossian the person - his views, beliefs, ideology, etc. - except that his PR firm represented those clients, and that he acted as spokesman for those clients. Also, his claim about his company being amongst the top 25 PR firms is false, Wikipedia (inadvertently?) [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ronn_Torossian edits (during which time, I could have been doing something more useful) I think a company topic ban is more than justified.--Aspro (talk) 16:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Not sure where to post, but @Padenton: Torossian's political activism is not limited to his college days - if you see this talk page section, much of whose content hasn't made it to the article, Torossian's political activities attracted media attention till 2002. He graduated from SUNY Albany in 1995. In any case, if he was written about in reliable sources during his youth, it belongs here - sources don't become obsolete or unacceptable because they are 20 years old or offline, especially since what he has done afterwards hasn't attracted that much media attention. And I don't agree with his claim that he is only notable for owning a PR company, there are at least 30+ sources about his politics, and far fewer about his PR stuff. Many of these sources about his activism are English-language sources based in Israel, I can only imagine there will be many more Hebrew (and possibly Arabic) sources. Apart from a few profiles (NYT, Forward, Lifestyles Magazine) which also prominently mention his politics, the rest PR-related sources that come up are all about him being in the news because he is representing notable clients - from whom he doesn't inherit any notability. Those sources say nothing about Torossian the person - his views, beliefs, ideology, etc. - except that his PR firm represented those clients, and that he acted as spokesman for those clients. Also, his claim about his company being amongst the top 25 PR firms is false, Wikipedia (inadvertently?) abetted him in propagating this lie for years till it was removed. FireflySixtySeven (talk) 16:30, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@FireflySixtySeven: my point is that it's largely WP:UNDUE. We could have similar extensive negative sections on a very wide number of people, yet we do not, because in many of those cases, editors felt it was WP:UNDUE. I'm not sure that it's Wikipedia's purpose to be a log of every media covered controversial decision a person has made in their entire lives. How long would the articles for Barack Obama, George W. Bush (more likely to be covered in his youth due to his father), Bill Clinton (very active in politics in college), if we listed every little thing they had done? I'm not saying Ronn Torossian has had the impact of a president of the United States, quite the opposite. The majority of his article is critical of him, and while I don't agree with how "Torossian" has been handling the dispute (from the recent posts that I've seen), his anger and impatience in this do appear to have some merit.

If these negative stories (many used in our article, though not all the sources in the politics section, are opinion articles) make up the majority of the few sources about this person, then I wonder if he truly has received significant coverage, and this becomes more of an attack page. Again, I don't agree with "Torossian"'s handling of this, but I just entered this dispute which seems to have been going on for a while. And based on my understanding of WP:BLP, some of this stuff is a bit excessive. WP:RS is not the only content guideline. WP:BLP is also a content guideline, and arguably far more important than WP:RS. WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE also applies. ― Padenton|✉   17:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Whatever else, WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE doesn't apply to someone who is known for putting himself in the spotlight (and I can present reliable sources for that, if required). It's not as if he weren't busily publishing opinion pieces to clearly lay out his political positions, though he doesn't want his own writings mentioned in his article (and he's right there, for once; I have repeatedly removed content based on his opinion pieces or on author profiles). Huon (talk) 19:58, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: At the risk of being picky and legalistic (and repetitive, even!), I wish to point out that a topic ban would not apply to the numerous sockpuppets of Babasalichai who swarm about 5WPR-related articles like flies. Those sockpuppets are community banned - their edits should be immediately reverted and their accounts should be blocked.

We are only talking about legitimate editors who have an association with 5W, and I know of only one of those - account Judae1. And, as I noted above, I think that Judah (whom I don't know personally and with whom I have no association other than having edited articles with him at Wikipedia) can be trusted to abide by the conflict of interest rules.

This in no way mitigates the pressing need to enforce the community ban on Babasalichai and his sockpuppets, including the IP that identifies himself as Ronn Torossian. All of these edits need to be reverted, and the IPs blocked from future editing of Wikipedia. --Ravpapa (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Question: should Cada mori (talk · contribs) be included in the company ban? Based on the writing style, I believe the user is not Ronn Torossian, but the user's input in Talk:Ronn Torossian basically parrots the 5W talking points and seems intended to add the impression that there's a dialog. Mosmof (talk) 14:12, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Question, how sure are we that these accounts really are Torossian and his employees, and not just impostors? Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 15:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC).

How sure do we need to be? What we do know is that there is a group of accounts (whether it's one person or multiple people) who have spent the past several years trying (justified or not) to remove negative content about the CEO and the company while inflating the company's standing and influence in its category (while also making similar edits to articles about the company's clients and introducing negative content to pages like Yoshiyahu Yosef Pinto. We know these accounts are disruptive, hijack discussions and unwilling to follow community policies. What more do we need to know? (FWIW, I believe some early edits have come from within the company and they're linked to blocked accounts, but I could be wrong) 15:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

You're on a witch hunt. I have no association with Ronn or his PR company. I came across the discussion and decided to participate. You have no reason to believe I am a sock, especially considering that I have a long history of edits on this site. Cada mori (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

"You have no reason to believe I am a sock, especially considering that I have a long history of edits on this site". Ahem.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 19:15, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

So? The block was reverted and it was confirmed it was only one instance. I have a solid history of contributions prior to that and the validity of the opinions expressed on the talk page should not be affected by that one incident. Cada mori (talk) 02:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Action, but not crackdown It would be impossible to fully find out every single member of this Company by really searching them out, instead, a system of surveillance on all articles related should be set up and anything suspicious should be looked into, If we find someone is putting pro Torossian accounts, we can assume that they are a employee using WP:DUCK. This should not be a crackdown, just a case of keeping a lookout. Happy_Attack_Dog (Throw Me a Bone) 18:52, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Please see this link. Please block that IP. I am reporting this to WMF legal. Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

this is related to issues discussed above here. Jytdog (talk) 14:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked the IP. In the spirit of WP:DOLT this complaint should be looked into. It is not clear what issue the IP was complaining about can you please clarify that? Chillum 14:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps we could merge this with the Ronn Torossian thread above. bobrayner (talk) 16:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

 Done. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 17:10, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ban evasion at Help Desk

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

See this diff at the Help Desk: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AHelp_desk&type=revision&diff=663930967&oldid=663927691

This appears to be ban evasion. Please block 165.254.85.130 or perform a range-block. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:28, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Numerous problems with EllenCT

Notice has been posted on EllenCT's Talk page about disruptive edits. This editor is a constant source of problems on several articles including Economic growth, Economic inequality and United States. EllenCT refuses to yield to editors' consensus. This editor is trying to monopolize Economic growth with income inequality, which by that editors own sources say that it is a minority view. This editor has a biased POV and is believed to have removed properly written and sourced material from Economic inequality and when questioned, promised to restore it but never did. In her Talk discussions EllenCT has not demonstrated sufficient knowledge of the subject matter to be qualified to edit and for diversion requests sources for comments made by other editors on subject matter that someone familiar with the literature should know, then criticizes the sources, even when they are classic works on the subject. EllenCT has created such a mess that it will take many hours to sort out. This needs to stop.Phmoreno (talk) 01:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

No, this needs some actual evidence, not content-free weasel-wording like "This editor has a biased POV and is believed to have removed properly written and sourced material..."

So, evidence, please. --Calton | Talk 02:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

As Calton says, Phmoreno, if EllenCT is "a constant source of problems" you should have no difficulty assembling a range of diffs supporting your argument. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 10:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Why was my reply deleted along with so many other comments here? EllenCT (talk) 05:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

My apologies EllenCT, this was some sort of finger trouble I was not aware of, while I was posting at the bottom. I'm sorry. You've obviously reinserted your section; I'll go check the others. Buckshot06 (talk) 10:05, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The assertion that I have not demonstrated sufficient knowledge is contradicted by the fact that I base my article improvements on the peer reviewed secondary literature such as literature reviews published in the Journal of Economic Literature. Phmoreno has been trying to use primary source literature to avoid the importance of income inequality, and tried to delete this graph from the International Monetary Fund's large recent WP:SECONDARY study of the largest data set amassed on the question yet, which indicates that the income distribution is of top importance. Most of what Phmoreno calls "classic works" are monographs which have not been submitted to peer review. Also someone else notified me of this complaint. EllenCT (talk) 04:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I think a boomerang may be due here. I'm hardly EllenCT's greatest fan, but EllenCT is standing up for relatively high-quality content - and Phmoreno has left a long trail of flaky sources and WP:SYNTH. bobrayner (talk) 13:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Also, be sure that any edits that purport to have been made by User:EllenCT were really made by User:EllenCT. There is a report below at this noticeboard that, among other things, mentions that an editor has a barnstar with a copy-and-paste of Ellen's signature that is therefore a forgery of Ellen's signature. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:06, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support boomerang on Phmoreno for making unsubstantiated claims and spreading rumors about EllenCT without a single supporting diff. I recommend that the closing admin strongly warn Phmoreno about making baseless claims on ANI in the future. Viriditas (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• While I agree he should show up with diffs next time, Phmoreno isn't wrong. EllenCT is by far the most disruptive, tendentious, aggressively soapboxing editor I've encountered on Wikipedia. She's also thoroughly incompetent, tossing out non sequiturs in a jargon word salad that sometimes convinces those who don't know better that she has some understanding of the topics she discusses (or even fully comprehends her own sources), a misconception it takes me and others countless hours of painstaking educating to debunk. This linked evidence section contains 70 diffs documenting instances of her misbehavior, with links to many more diffs by several other editors, all of which is the tip of the iceberg. The cited instances include her falsely accusing me of being a paid editor, leveling false accusations against other editors to try and discredit them, admitting her partisan editing agenda, blatantly lying, undeniably misrepresenting sources, and general POV pushing, disruptive behavior. At the time Arbcom took no action specifically against her (most likely because she was peripheral to that case's purpose and just showed up as an unrelated person to level false charges against others, including me, which is how we were roped into it; of course Arbcom took no action against us either), but it certainly established a pattern of past behavior that should be kept in mind going forward. I didn't interact with her much after that until recently and haven't followed most of the specific activity Phmoreno referenced above, but I can affirm that she's hit the United States page with a POV blitz across multiple sections that sparked an edit war which led to the article being temporarily shut down, and has caused another editor to seek to have the page's recently restored "good" status reassessed.

For a specific, recent example showing she hasn't changed, she agreed to a compromise proposal on content that she blatantly violated a few days later. I led off my proposal saying "The current long standing Government finance segment stays the way it is..." in exchange for me adding a separate segment to another section addressing her alleged concerns. She replied by saying, "I'm completely okay with that." Yet a few days after I implemented my part of the compromise, she tried to completely rewrite the segment she had just agreed to leave as is, deleting the most important parts. That's not good faith, and without good faith productive, collaborative editing is impossible. I don't expect this complaint to result in sanctions, but don't assume Phmoreno is just making this up and don't be harsh with him with a "boomerang" when he may not have understood how these things work. EllenCT has frustrated a lot of good editors over the years, even some who agree with her politics. VictorD7 (talk) 23:37, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• While EllenCT has engaged in such behavior listed above in other topics (documented at this ANI that I brought forward awhile back), diffs are needed to show what the actual problem is (if any) in this particular case. Without that, there's nothing to discuss here. I suggest Phmoreno should look at how other ANI postings are set up and provide diffs to support these accusations. Without that, those of us who are not involved in this particular case will only assume there isn't a behavior problem that needs to be discussed here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

For the record, SPECIFICO'S accusation against me in that discussion is completely false, and he posted no evidence or specific commentary to support it. If I was "mercilessly" hounding EllenCT I probably wouldn't have completely missed that ANI discussion that apparently lasted a long time and involved many of the other editors who have had to deal with her. VictorD7 (talk) 01:03, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• To further underscore what I said above, I will add this recent illustrative quote that shows where she's coming from ([32]) in response to another editor's fairly innocuous post: "If this article were governed according to WP:UNDUE, right-wing views would properly be sidelined and marginalized because the demographic center of Americans' political preferences is to the left of the Democrats. That is not an opinion, it is a fact about the opinions of Americans on a per-capita instead of a per-dollar basis....If your idea of an excellent encyclopedia article emphasizes only the topics according to your discredited political preferences, then perhaps your skills would better serve your fellow citizens by editing Conservapedia." - EllenCT VictorD7 (talk) 00:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Does the mainstream run between the people and the corporate parties, or between the parties? EllenCT (talk) 02:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I think readers need to look through the diffs Victor has brought up. There is no need for boomerang as it clearly appears Ellen is conducting all she is accused of. For all the damage she is causing, she cannot simply get away with it just because the user was ignorant to how AN/I works.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, it is not reassuring to see this edit by Phmoreno saying I will do whatever I need to to get rid of her distorted edits even if I cannot have her blocked. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 11:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Though I agree Phmoreno is not conducting himself in a respectable manner, it does not excuse EllenCT for her editing. Perhaps the both of them should get blocked, but Ellen definitely deserves a longer duration.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 12:02, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I think people should look at the ongoing POV pushing by Victor and others at United States. Ellen is not the problem. For victor, this is an ongoing problem. Examples from another article, America: Imagine the World Without Her include edit warring 1.[33], [34], [35], [36] [37] [38][39] [40] [41][42] [43] 2. [44], [45] [46], [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] Of POV Pushing: [52], [53], [54] [55] [56],[57] [58] [59] [60] [61], [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] [69], [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75][76] [77] [78] [79] Attacking other editors on talk pages: [80] [81] [82] [83] [84] [85]. Ellen is defending well sourced material. Other editors are seeking to remove it or weaken the statements to support their POV. I would encourage any administrator to read the talk page of United States and examine the edit history. There are clearly editors who have problems with POV pushing, with the major problem being Victor. It isn't like he isn't pretty clear about his purpose here.[86]Casprings (talk) 12:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

<INSERT>Except that Casprings' case falls apart under scrutiny. He pads his diffs with routine edits, alleged "personal attacks" that are mostly me defending myself, and alleged "POV" pushing that really just shows me expressing concern for neutrality. There was some edit warring on the other article, but it involved several editors on both sides, including him, and was ultimately resolved by me and what Casprings called my "supporters" using clear, honestly constructed RFCs to gain input from the broader community. He and his cohorts were the POV pushers, and he already filed a complaint against me with all that "evidence" that Arbcom declined to even hear, as the issue had already been resolved by then and it was just him waging a content dispute by other means. EllenCT wasn't even involved in that dispute, so this is just a lame attempt by him to distract from this section's topic. Casprings has a history of trying to get posters he politically opposes sanctioned by any means necessary, as this embarrassing example shows when he went after Arzel (citing some of the same evidence against him that he cites against me here above, including his link to my alleged "purpose" here). The admin's rebuke for the frivolous report was harsh enough that Casprings felt compelled to retract it, saying that he had posted it because he was "mad", not that it stopped him from trying again later. Gradually he morphed from targeting Arzel to targeting me. Calling me "the problem" is absurd. Ellen's entire Wikipedia existence is about ramming as much low quality political propaganda as she can into articles. Ellen and Griffin's soapboxing triggered a period of instability in the United States article in 2013, and their departure from the article after responsible left leaning editors joined with me and other conservative ones in stopping her resulted in a long period of article stability that recently saw the page's "good status" restored for the first time since early 2012. Her recent return has triggered a new period of instability. I'm not the one trying to radically alter long standing segments throughout the article or shove in one sided talking points on random topics of interest to me without talk page discussion or concern for encyclopedic quality. As for your old link allegedly about my "purpose" from a year ago, that was on my personal talk page and was in the context of simply trying to create a neutral article in the face of relentless POV pushing opposition by you and others. VictorD7 (talk) 23:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Casprings 100%. I find it incredibly ironic that some editors are calling out EllenCT as a "problem editor" while ignoring VictorD7, who has been edit warring and POV pushing on the United States article since he first joined Wikipedia, and has been called out numerous times on his own talkpage. And looking over the edits that culminated in the United States page being locked down, it seems to me that VictorD7's reverts were to blame more so than anything else. It also looks like he violated WP:3rr with these four consecutive edits: [87], [88], [89], [90].--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

My reply to Casprings is above. As to Griffin, who often acts as Ellen's POV pushing tag team partner, just because someone makes an accusation doesn't mean it's true (it's telling that I'm transparent enough to leave even false accusations on my Talk Page). I wasn't even one of the last three people to revert before the article was locked down: [91], [92], [93], [94]. I did not violate 3RR, as some of my edits you cite were consecutive. If you had bothered to read your own link, you'd see that "A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert." It would show good faith if you were to retract at least that false accusation. I did arguably engage in a little edit warring, as did you in recent weeks in that article, Griffin ([95], [96], [97], [98], [99]),and Ellen ([100], [101], [102], [103], [104], [105], [106], [107], [108], [109], [110],[111], [112], [113], [114], [115]; Ellen often falsely claims in edit summaries that an item has been approved "per talk", even when it has received nothing but opposition if it was mentioned at all on the talk page, and lumps things under an "RFC" that had nothing to do with an RFC), but I've never engaged in the lying, misrepresentation of sources, or libelous personal attacks that she has. Blaming me for the page lockdown or POV pushing is absurd when I wasn't the one trying to make changes to long standing article segments. Ellen showed up after a long period of article stability that coincided with her previous departure and instantly renewed old efforts to shove political talking points into sections across the article, in most cases without even bothering to try gain a talk page consensus first. Without that I wouldn't even be editing the article right now. VictorD7 (talk) 23:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I will have to sort through a lot of material to present the pertinent facts in the case in addition to my personal experiences. In the meantime this discussion should remain open. It should be focused on the person who the complaint is against and not go directly into character assassinations of those in support of my complaint.Phmoreno (talk) 13:45, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not character assassination if it is fact. I still think EllenCT needs to be blocked, but maybe it would be better if all three (Phmoreno, VictorD7, and EllenCT) be handed some sort of block. They are all in some way tied up in this POV pushing and deserve a block to be determined by admin.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 15:14, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Don't be suckered by false claims, TheGracefulSlick, or knee jerk statements of equivalence. I've done no "POV pushing". Also, while I (among many others here) have engaged in some edit warring at times (in the sense that I occasionally reverted bad edits without breaking 3RR), my evidence against EllenCT in my first two posts above isn't even about edit warring. I lay out clear, salient examples of her falsely accusing me of being a paid editor of a specific outfit, undeniably misrepresenting sources, and showing disruptive bad faith in other ways. No one can find a single example of me doing anything like that, so don't lump us together just because we're involved in an argument with each other. VictorD7 (talk) 23:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

You might be the OP, Phmoreno, but other editors can add any facts here that they think are pertinent. And I think "character assassination" is overly dramatic when your words against EllenCT are just as harsh. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:22, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I think one way forward (but not the only way) is for an admin to levy full page protection and for a new RfC to take place. I visited the talk page to see what all the fuss is about and made a few comments only to find myself quickly under attack by VictorD7, a wikilawyer par excellence. His contribution history portrays him as an SPA pushing an extreme, minority POV. I do not know if that characterization is accurate, but that's the impression I get from viewing his contribs. It needs to be noted that VictorD7 and Phmoreno have been actively feuding with EllenCT for at least the last year. Viriditas (talk) 18:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

False. You showed up and in your first post accused me of "engaging in outright denial" ([116]). You hadn't even commented on the right topic (the one actually being discussed), so in my reply I simply corrected your mistake and advised you to read more closely ([117], scroll down). In your next reply you attacked my motives ([118]), falsely accusing me of "intentionally attempting to manufacture doubt about inequality in the U.S." and "engaging in denial". The rest of your post, again, contained a straw man argument, and my next reply just corrected you again while defending myself. If anything you showed up and started attacking me, not the other way around.

I'd also ask that you retract the false "SPA" claim. As the SPA page states, that tag is not based on timeline. You are not to use it on established editors who have edited multiple articles in the past but focus on one for an extended period of time. I've posted extensively on numerous articles since creating this account in 2012. In fact I've been accused of being a "SPA" on two different articles in recent months, lol, which proves it's not true. If I tend to mostly focus on a small group of articles it's because I don't have a schedule that permits dozens of edits a day. That has nothing to do with being a Single Purpose Account, which is mostly about ferreting out paid advocacy (COI) and is a very serious accusation you shouldn't recklessly throw around. VictorD7 (talk) 23:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Boomerang: Clear attempt to bully and intimidate a content contributor who does careful research. WP:BAITing of EllenCT is also inappropriate. Montanabw^(talk) 04:14, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for VictorD7

From the conversation above, I propose the following:

VictorD7 (talk · contribs) has aggressively pushed his POV, edit warred, and dismissed other viewpoints in the topic area of American Politics. This behavior has occurred over a long period of time. For example, in the article America: Imagine the World Without Her, he has edit warred 1.[119], [120], [121], [122] [123] [124][125] [126] [127][128] [129] 2. [130], [131] [132], [133] [134] [135] [136] [137] POV Pushed: [138], [139], [140] [141] [142],[143] [144] [145] [146] [147], [148] [149] [150] [151] [152] [153] [154] [155], [156] [157] [158] [159] [160] [161][162] [163] [164] [165] and attacked other editors: [166] [167] [168] [169] [170] [171]

He has POV pushed in the article United States since he first joined Wikipedia. In edits that culminated in the United States page being protected, VictorD7's reverts played an essential role. He also violated WP:3rr with four consecutive edits: [172], [173], [174], [175] He often attacks others editors on the talk page of the article. [176] [177] [178]

Victor edits primary on topics that relate to the Politics of the United States and has made his purpose for editing those articles clear. [179] As such, VictorD7 is indefinitely prohibited from editing any page about or making any edit related to the politics of the United States, broadly construed, across all namespaces. This restriction includes the article United States. This restriction is enforceable by any uninvolved administrator. VictorD7 may request reconsideration of this remedy twelve months after the passing of this motion.

Casprings (talk) 20:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I did not violate 3RR and I ask you to show good faith by retracting that false accusation. Consecutive edits counts as one revert. The rest of your post I rebutted in the above section. VictorD7 (talk) 23:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Enough already. - Cwobeel (talk) 23:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

  Really, Cwobeel? It doesn't bother you that he started this outrageous character assassination section with a blatantly false claim about me violating 3RR (actually multiple false claims but that one's salient, objective, and easy for anyone to quickly discern), a claim you had made about those same edits earlier that I've already corrected you on? On what grounds should this ridiculously over the top punishment be imposed? Have you even read these links? VictorD7 (talk) 23:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

  Maybe it would be best of you declare a break, take some time off per WP:WPDNNY, come back after that refreshed, and maybe with a better attitude. That may save you from a block... - Cwobeel (talk) 00:40, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

  I'm fine with taking a Wiki break, but I'd prefer you answer my questions. Defending myself from false personal attacks isn't reflective of a bad attitude. VictorD7 (talk) 00:54, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support(uninvolved non admin) The numerous diff's provided leave little doubt a ban is needed for VictorD7. POV pushing and attacks on other editors should never happen. AlbinoFerret 00:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

  You mean attacks like false accusations of violating 3RR and paid editing? Did you actually read those "numerous" diffs? What were the most egregious examples of "POV pushing" you found? Mostly I just read sources and clarify issues for people on talk pages. The vast majority of my interactions are civil and productive. VictorD7 (talk) 00:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I read each and every diff, it took some time. You repeatedly pushed your own edits back in. You went off of the discussion of the article and aimed your replies at another editor. The one I find most troubling is the use of "any sane person". You did all this and looking at what has been presented it is more than enough. I will also caution you, as others have, that you do not help your cause questioning ever poster here, it in fact proves to me that you need a break from the area. AlbinoFerret 00:54, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I suspect not defending myself would work even worse. Just to clarify, the "personal attack" you found most "troubling" was this one...[180]...where I simply used the same "any sane" wording the editor did in the post I replied to, visible above mine, where I was setting the record straight and defending myself from, among other things, his accusations of being "churlish" and engaging in "gamesmanship"? BTW, like most of the above "evidence", that was from last year (or the beginning of this year) in an article that did get heated on all sides at times, but I haven't been to that article in months nor have I interacted with that editor since. Is that really worth something as draconian and sudden as a broad topic ban? VictorD7 (talk) 01:15, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support - Overwhelming evidence against the user, and I propose a block with time to be decided by admin. VictorD7, don't bother commenting to this support as your counter-statements help little to whatever defense you have left.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:28, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - I stopped being able to believe that VictorD7 has been editing in good faith years ago. I keep trying to work with him, but he refuses to accept only adverse RFC results, with an extremely asymmetric idea of compromise, always in his favor even when he has accepted facts which imply his judgment has been in error. I would be most grateful if the community recognizes that he is motivated by ideology instead of a desire to improve the encyclopedia, to the extent that corrupting the quality of articles and intentionally trying to mislead people about vital economic and policy topics means nothing to him when he has some glimmer of hope that he is scoring some long-antiquated political point for far-right corporate interests opposed to those of individuals. EllenCT (talk) 03:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. No reasonable case has been made for a block on VictorD7. It is just a list of the man's edits, not evidence of edit-warring, POV-pushing, etc. I followed up diff 173, which was an August 2014 edit to the article on the film : America: Imagine the World Without Her. Looking at the edit in the context of other the edits to the article, VictorD7 appeared to be acting reasonably. Though two editors disagreed with him, another editor agreed with him on that point (though disagreed with him on other points - so was not part of a tag-team).-- Toddy1 (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. (uninvolved) As with the discussion about EllenCT above at this time, I don't see a case laid out justifying a topic ban. A large number of diffs were provided, but they alone without context don't provide a narrative for a major NPOV issue. I'm only seeing involved editors looking to topic ban the other at this time in the conversation. If someone wants to rise above that, they'd need to actually demonstrate the actual ongoing problem at least somewhat concisely. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:02, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

This is seeming typical of both sides of the political articles squabbles here at ANI – to try and knock editors from other side out by having them "blocked" for this or that. I should have boldly closed this entire topic down early on when I had the inclination (and before it morphed into a tit for tat exchange...). At this point, it would be a mercy for Admin to close this down, and send both camps back to their various articles to argue and fume some more. [sigh...] --IJBall (talk) 05:42, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - per Kingofaces43 I'm also not seeing the context within the diffs to justify a topic ban. I'm not familiar with this particular dispute, but I should note that I've worked with both Victor and Ellen in the past. I can't recall working with Phmoreno. Morphh ^(talk) 15:38, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support - per Casprings, TheGracefulSlick, EllenCT and what I stated above.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support - per the evidence, and the arguments, presented above. IjonTichy (talk) 20:46, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose a unilateral ban in a case like this. There's enough bad behavior in both directions to go around between these two across a wide range of articles. Would support an interaction band or a bilateral topic ban to make the articles they fight over usable again by other editors. But a one-way action against the one initiated by the other is of no use. --Jayron32 01:34, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

It's a mistake to equate me and EllenCT (or me and Griffin or Casprings for that matter). I've typed up an EllenCT section that would show just how out of whack that is, though I haven't decided whether I'm going to post it or not. For now I'm holding off, mostly because I just showed up here to defend the op from a harsh "boomerang" when he clearly wasn't familiar with how ANIs work. I didn't call for sanctions against EllenCT in my posts above, and the only time I initiated a report against her was when she refused to stop accusing me of being a paid editor, though I could certainly make a much stronger case against her than Casprings did against me. VictorD7 (talk) 03:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with VictorD7. Each user should be handled individually instead of saying, "well, look at all the bad behavior going on".Casprings (talk) 04:54, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say that at all. On the contrary, I think context is vital. Besides, you've got a funny way of showing you believe that either since this section was created to discuss EllenCT. VictorD7 (talk) 17:37, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jayron32: if you are claiming sufficient bad behavior on my part to support any sort of a ban, please say what specific edits constitute that bad behavior. You and I have had disagreements in the past, and it is very disappointing to see such insinuations from such an administrator without any evidence. EllenCT (talk) 21:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Jayron, this dispute is hardly a one-way affair. There are uncivil POV pushers working in both directions here (which has created an interesting pseudo-balance in the articles about the politics of the United States). Banning one editor would not solve this dispute, but I would be in favor of a bilateral topic ban. Winner 42 Talk to me! 02:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, if you are claiming sufficient bad behavior on my part to support any sort of a ban, please say what specific edits constitute that bad behavior. I have been editing strictly according to the peer reviewed literature reviews, not my personal politics. EllenCT (talk) 21:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. This isn't a one-sided issue and any sanctions shouldn't be one-sided either. It takes two to tango. Calidum T|C 21:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, I note that no actual evidence of any bad behavior on my part has been presented. The idea that "it takes two to tango" is as bad as he-said/she-said journalism when one side is obviously right and the other is obviously wrong. EllenCT (talk) 21:59, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Strong support (uninvolved non-admin) Knowledgeable editors like EllenCT who cite neutral scholarly sources about contentious matters are so exceptional here that pushing for informed neutrality is seen as POV pushing by those (from both sides of the left/right divide) who are here to overwhelm and conquer by using their own pet junk citations. This is not a matter of one side trying to knock the other out in a left/right divide. It is a matter of who is here to contribute and who is here to just win. [181] makes it clear why VictorD7 is here. There are many knowledgeable editors who have EllenCT's ability to cite neutral, scholarly sources and just can't stand contributing here any longer because of "the numbers and persistence" of those who can't or won't find the best citations instead of the ones that allow them to achieve their goal for their team. Flying Jazz (talk) 03:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

  Leaving aside the fact that EllenCT routinely uses fringe blogs (example: [182]), is generally terrible at selecting and comprehending sources, and is the least neutral editor I've encountered on Wikipedia, that quote by me you mention was context specific in regards to trying to pull a particular article toward neutrality from a tendentious group bent on propagandizing, and was simply an undeniable description of how Wikipedia works. It said nothing about "why" I'm here. By contrast, statements like this from EllenCT say a lot about her purpose here: [183] "There is no way to edit Wikipedia in a completely nonpartisan fashion. Refraining from editing reinforces the status quo which is mostly libertarian Austrian nonsense." [184] "If this article were governed according to WP:UNDUE, right-wing views would properly be sidelined and marginalized because the demographic center of Americans' political preferences is to the left of the Democrats." VictorD7 (talk) 06:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

  The same editors who can't or won't evaluate textual context in sources also often fail to evaluate context in other editors' words. Using a blog (fringe or not) on a talk page to summarize opinions for other editors about what's wrong with an article is a great idea and is very different from using a blog in the article itself. Using blogs in the article will almost always harm the reader. Pointing to blogs in the talk page can often help the reader by allowing one editor to summarize things (fringe or not) for other editors. By simply writing "EllenCT routinely uses fringe blogs" without adding the context in which she uses them, you conflate discussion about an article with harming an article. My thinking is that this is a strong indication of your motives, and my opinion has changed from "support" to "strong support" as a result of this most recent failure to evaluate words in context. Of course, whether a blog is fringe or not is irrelevant to a discussion about editor behavior. EllenCT's comments at [185] that VictorD7 mentioned continue: It's not a case of both sides being equally valid. They are not; one side has models that can predict historical outcomes from prior emperical data, and the other does not. Removing demonstrable nonsense helps the reader. My view is that VictorD7, by citing particular sentences that EllenCT wrote out of their context, simply wishes to win. Flying Jazz (talk) 12:51, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

  Who said she didn't want to use the blog in the article itself? She defended the source (what Cadiomals aptly called "some twenty-something woman's rant blog"; it is a rabid anti-American screed on some random personal blog) when its RS status was attacked, and said she wanted to include points from it in the article and reshape the entire page according to its themes. Leaving aside the fact that using such a horrible source to dictate the entire layout of the United States article is even worse than simply using it to support one segment (perhaps one covering broader opinionated disagreement) per WP:NPOV (among other things), the blog itself uses fringe blogs (and sometimes Wikipedia or busted links) as sources for the points she wanted included. It does help to fully read what you comment on. EllenCT also has a history of using fringe advocacy/lobbying groups as sole authoritative sources (e.g. [186]; INSIGHT: Center for Community and Economic Development, Oakland CA), even when their claims are uncorroborated and strongly disputed by far more reliable sources (the most salient example is Citizens for Tax Justice, the lobbying arm of a liberal think tank called ITEP, whose tax chart she tried to force into articles across Wikipedia for over a year, causing enormous disruption; e.g. - [187], [188])

As for the quotes, it's interesting that you accuse me of taking things out of context when you above quoted a full four words from me in totally distorting what I was talking about. By contrast, the most pertinent element in my quote of EllenCT above is "There is no way to edit Wikipedia in a completely nonpartisan fashion." That's not true. We all have our views, but we are supposed to edit in a nonpartisan fashion. Of course we're to avoid false balance, but simply asserting there is such a false balance in a particular case doesn't make it true. It's also telling that EllenCT believes Wikipedia is "mostly libertarian Austrian nonsense", and that most Americans are to the left of the Democrats. That means she believes Wikipedia is politically waaaay to the right of the American people, which is something to keep in mind when championing her as a supremely competent, knowledgeable editor with a firm grip on reality while attacking and dismissing the countless editors who have been frustrated trying to collaborate with her. For real context, read the rest of the link you quoted from (you actually posted the wrong link). She's replying to an editor who shares her politics and started off on her side, but started distancing himself when shown proof she was wrong. After she complains about him saying something positive about me, he answers, "I said that because he had valid arguments, and when he explained further I thought the arguments were even more valid (the ITEP's federal income tax has yet to be explained in-depth). I have yet to see a rebuttal from you which addresses the substance. Do you think you're editing in a completely nonpartisan fashion? I don't have time read the tens of thousands of bytes you and him have expended in your arguments, but I do notice that you keep saying he wants to use non-peer-reviewed publications but the peer reviewed literature you're relying on isn't immediately apparent to me, especially since you don't like the Tax Policy Center, which publishes working papers on its model, but are partial to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) model, which does not appear to publish details on its model. In any case, the debate over the substance is somewhat irrelevant to the bad faith tone and insults."

As for evaluating sources, maybe you can succeed where she failed. That same discussion was one of the multiple times she claimed [189] that this article [190] states that roughly 50% of corporate tax incidence is borne by consumers, even calling it "the best source". Except, like the rest of modern scholarship, it focuses only on different ideas about the labor/capital split. Searches show it doesn't even mention the word "consumer" in any variation. She made similar false claims [191] about "page 17" of this source [192] (everything she said about me there is false too), saying it shows "50%-75%" of taxes fall on consumers. Except page 17 doesn't mention the word "consumer" in any variation either, and is also about the labor/capital split. In fact it, like most of her own sources, totally undermined her own claims about tax regressivity. Discussion elsewhere indicated she didn't understand the difference between labor and consumption, or even that investment, labor, and consumption are activities rather than distinct groups of people. When I repeatedly asked her to support her assertions with a single source quote she refused to do so and has never retracted her claims. [193], [194], [195], [196], [197] Maybe you can find the source quotes she couldn't. Or, if you're unwilling to read and rationally engage in discussions like this then you shouldn't stridently make assertions you can't back up. I'm only posting this now because I couldn't let your above comments go unchallenged. Pretty much everything you said above is the opposite of the truth.VictorD7 (talk) 20:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• This is a pretty unfair application of bad faith to those that have had disputes with Ellen. Intelligent people can disagree on what sources say if we're not directly quoting them and what the weight should be for the given scope of an article. Ellen and Victor are both very passionate and opinionated editors, which tends to balance out. I hope that any admin considering action would take the time to read through some of these disputes and see the varying viewpoints in full context. Morphh ^(talk) 16:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support per Jayron and Flying Jazz, overwhelming a post with bullying and incessant tl;dr exhibits bad faith from a longtime tendentious editor. Montanabw^(talk) 04:10, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

EllenCT- specific issues

Difficulties I’ve experienced with EllenCT are issues on Economic growth, although it appears that she is causing similar problems on Economic inequality and United States : EllenCT’s edits on Economic growth are primarily, if not exclusively, in the Income equality section.

1. EllenCT is the person most responsible for the Income equality section being disproportionately large relative to the topic’s main causes and to its coverage in growth literature. (See 5)
2. Despite the Income equality section being tagged WP:UNDUE several times, EllenCT continued to add to it.
3. It has been suggested several times that most of the material in the section be removed to I separate article. I added the main article Economic inequality, where EllenCT actively edits.
4. EllenCT then added income inequality related material into the productivity section, trying to use the supposed gap between productivity and median family income. In this discussion Soapbox 1 she exposes her POV by trying to change the focus from the importance of productivity to growth to how income is distributed by using a graph of median family income. EllenCT had to be aware that this graph was misleading because she was involved in discussions about it where papers said: Total compensation tracks productivity better than median family income and there was a change in “family” composition over time, with a rise in single parent households associated with poverty and income inequality.
5. Here is how some of the material the Income equality section is described by others on Talk:Economic growth#Other problems in the inequality section “I'm sorry but that whole section is crap.” And “The whole thing is still one big disorganized mess”.
6. On EllenCT’s talk page I asked her to leave a summary and take the rest of the material to Economic inequality. She ignored this request.
7. What do you make of this exchange?: Phmoreno: Sounds like you either not reading your references or ignoring what they actually say.Phmoreno (talk) 18:31, 18 May 2015 (UTC) EllenCT: That is so dishonest! The only reason Temple (1999) says there has been little interest in income distribution because he spends the remainder of the literature review showing why it's so important. You can take your unfounded personal attacks and shove them, thank you very much. EllenCT (talk) 05:28, 19 May 2015 (UTC) Phmoreno: So that there is no confusion about what my statement referred to, here are Temple's words: Yet macroeconomists have traditionally shown little interest in the gulf between rich and poor. The study of growth at the aggregate level has often been something of a backwater, relegated to a brief last chapter in mainstream textbooks, and rarely taken on by anyone outside development economics.Phmoreno (talk) 13:16, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
8. Based on her edits and more importantly our Talk discussions, I have doubts about EllenCT’s knowledge of economic theory. She keeps asking for sources on basic concepts like the importance of productivity, then when I refer her several references used in this article and to the NBER, she criticizes the sources. She's questioning concepts that are fundamental to understanding her favoriet reference Temple (1999), which requires an understanding of macroeconomic modeling and analysis techniques. (Perhaps she can give us a section-by-section summary.) Also, thre was a comment to her on Talk:Economic inequality about the fact that developing countries should be handled separately from developed countries and I have pointed out here (as have her sources, suuch as Temple) that many countries do not report the necesary statistics (or they are of too poor quality) to put into production fucntions for analysis. Despite this she keeps mentioning that the IMF paper claims income inequality is the most important determinant of growth, failing to mention non-traditional, difficult to quantify variables have to be used in the analysis. Also, I had to go correct the statement about the IMF paper in one of the articles to say that income inequality is related to the duration of growth, not the magnitude.
9. However, she admitted that productivity was important in this exchange: Talk:Economic growth #"Needs to be replaced with real per-capita income versus productivity” EllenCT: @Phmoreno: re [198], how would per-capita (mean) income ever diverge from productivity? They are completely correlated…. EllenCT (talk) 16:40, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
10. I will not pursue claims of removing material which she admitted to here: Talk:Economic inequality#Recent edits EllenCT: “I intend to restore most if not all of that material absent persuasive arguments to the contrary.“EllenCT (talk) 03:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC) EllenCT’s removal of content was relatively minor compared to another editor’s.
11. In conclusion, the various talk pages show a long history of problems with EllenCT involving several editors. She has left some serious messes that will require a lot of work to sort through and clean up. She has made some attempts to do this, but still engages in posting slanted edits.Phmoreno (talk) 01:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm the editor who has engaged with EllenCT the most with regard to the inequality section of the Economic Growth article. I'm the one who put in the undue/too long tags - because they need to be there. I'm the one editor who's argued with her the most about the issues pertinent to that section. I've disagreed strongly with many of her edits - in this particular section, in most other respects her edits were fine - and did at one point get pretty exasperated with the inability to find common ground.

Still, I see no reason for why EllenCT should be sanctioned in anyway or warned or whatever for these edits. This is mostly a straight up content issue. In fact, problems with Phmoreno, conduct wise, have been much worse than with Ellen. At least one can have a constructive conversation with Ellen, with Phmoreno it sort of degenerates quickly. I'm also willing to take some responsibility for the continuation of the existence of the dispute about economic inequality and economic growth. Basically, I know that if I had the time I could sit down and write that section so that both Ellen and I would agree on it. Problem is that it's starting with a pretty crappy draft to work with and properly revising it would take a lot of work. And I've been lazy about it. All this is a way of saying that's it's not all Ellen's fault that those tags are still there.

Anyway. Boomerang it or let it go. I got no opinion on all the opportunistic assholery that's showed up in this request above calling for Ellen's head but the nature of the comments makes me suspect that that's exactly what it is: "I have a chance to get somebody who disagreed with me once banned so I'm gonna act like an opportunistic asshole!"Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Why don't you have her agree to let you remove everything and rewrite it yourself, including some of her content. It would be easier than for you and the others than constantly agruing with her. Otherwise, this will go on for a long time.Phmoreno (talk) 03:05, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Anybody who sympathises with Phmoreno's line of argument here - that EllenCT has put excessive weight on a topic, and lacks economic expertise - is invited to read Phmoreno's most-edited article, Productivity improving technologies (historical). You'll need a couple of days and you'll need to forget about the existence of WP:SYNTH, of course. bobrayner (talk) 19:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not disagree with Phmoreno that productivity is important. I have asked Phmoreno for sources comparing the importance of productivity and income distribution. There are abundant, recent, WP:SECONDARY sources claiming that the income distribution is the most important independent determinant of economic growth. So far I have seen zero sources, from Phmoreno or anyone else, comparing the relative importance of the two. Phmoreno's productivity section is longer than the income distribution section in the Economic growth article, and he has insisted that it come first. Why does he want to downplay the importance of the income distribution? Several of his points enumerated above (especially 2 through 6) apply to the article in an intermediate state before recent improvements and the long series of improvements in January in which Phmoreno did not participate at all, and none of them are serious behavior issues. So far, Phmoreno has been unable or unwilling to identify a single peer reviewed literature review in support of any of his points.

Phmoreno's point number 7 is indeed an extremely dishonest further attempt to misrepresent a secondary peer reviewed literature review, Temple (1999), published in the Journal of Economic Literature. The review author was complaining that economists in general did not give sufficient attention to the income distribution among the determinants of economic growth, and his primary conclusion is directly contrary to Phmoreno's contention that it should be ignored. EllenCT (talk) 21:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not know and never claimed to know of any sources that specifically compares the importance of labor productivity to income distribution. But let's look at your statement here: There are abundant, recent, WP:SECONDARY sources claiming that the income distribution is the most important independent determinant of economic growth. This is a perfect example of how you operate because your sources do not make that comparison either, because of insufficient statistics on productivity and capital in developing countries. They are comparing a different set of variables. The burden of providing proof that income distribution is more important than labor productivity, capital or new products falls on you because it is completely outside of any mainstream view. If that were an accepted view you should have no problem finding multiple sources to support it. The literature only claims productivity, capital and new products as being responsible for economic growth. The importance of productivity is well noted in the history of economic thought where it was mentioned by classical economists, neoclassical economists and modern economists. Marx clearly stated that productivity and technical advancement were the causes of growth. Kendrick stated that labor productivity accounted for three quarters of US economic growth in the century leading up to 1956. There is a vast amount of literature on productivity and its relationship with growth. The opening sentence of this St. Louis Fed paper is typical: [199]Over long periods of time, increases in “real” wages-that is, adjusted for changes in consumer prices, reflect increases in labor productivity. If you compare real wages a century ago with those today you will see that they are between 10 and 20 times higher today. So what do you think would have happened to real wages if we had redistributed income 100 years ago and held productivity constant?Phmoreno (talk) 04:16, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I was a bit ignorant of many of these issues, so I went to the Income distribution article (which EllenCT has not contributed to in any way to the best of my knowledge) and found the link to INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND Research Department. Inequality and Unsustainable Growth: Two Sides of the Same Coin? Prepared by Andrew G. Berg and Jonathan D. Ostry1. Figure 3 on page 12 compares the impact of multiple macroeconomic factors on growth spell duration, and Income Distribution comes out on top. Labor productivity isn't mentioned. Why not? Here's a hint: it has something to do with the word "independent." Yes, EllenCT is up to the usual sneaky tricks that knowledgeable people have of using language in a precise way. You may not know what the word independent means in this context or in the context of any complicated function with multiple inputs and one output. If you do know, you may be intentionally hiding or misapplying that knowledge. Ellen and the IMF are, in effect, saying, "This car is faster because it is built a certain way." You are saying, "This car is faster because its wheels have a higher rotation rate." Why doesn't someone in the automotive industry compare the importance of wheel rotation rate to car design in determining speed? Because that would be a stupid thing to do. Why doesn't an economist compare the importance of labor productivity to income inequality in determining growth? Same reason. One editor has the background and knowledge to correctly utilize the word independent and the other without that knowledge seems to be ignoring it. All of that would be viewed as an amusing miscommunication and comedy of errors among editors talking past each other on a talk page. It's being discussed here because the less knowledgeable editor wishes to win an argument by preventing the more knowledgeable editor from contributing at Wikipedia. Flying Jazz (talk) 16:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Regarding point #7, here is what I make of the exchange. It's difficult for a person who is knowledgeable in a particular field to know how to best react at Wikipedia when another editor misrepresents the literature of that field by taking a single isolated sentence or two out of its particular context in one paper. It can be immensely frustrating for someone with a strong background who knows and understands a discipline to see another editor advocating for overemphasizing one sentence in a misleading way. EllenCT recognizes the context of a particular sentence or two due to familiarity with the intent of the paper in the field as a whole. I believe (but I can't state this strongly because of my own lack of familiarity with the field) that Phmoreno not only doesn't recognize this context but accused EllenCT of not reading or ignoring that one sentence. Being called dishonest in that situation is well deserved, and the statement "You can take your unfounded personal attacks and shove them" is also well deserved. I want knowledgeable people here who are familiar with a field and care about it to contribute to articles. Unfortunately that sometimes means displaying appropriate impatience with unfounded accusations of ignorance from the truly ignorant. That's what I make of the exchange. Flying Jazz (talk) 04:23, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

It looks like a simple argument over weight. Ellen is arguing that it's due weight as an important viewpoint (referencing the publication author) and Phmoreno is arguing that it's a small minority viewpoint (referencing the publication author). Both points worth further discussion - no reason for personal attacks or calling anyone ignorant. Morphh ^(talk) 17:28, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

When I read "Sounds like you either not reading your references or ignoring what they actually say," I see an unjustified accusation from Phmoreno that EllenCT is ignoring something that she did not ignore. Ignoring something is ignorance personified, so I see an unjustified accusation of ignorance from Phmoreno to EllenCT in that statement, thus personalizing a dispute, where you only see an argument over weight. We have different eyes. I don't think the request "What do you make of this exchange?" was meant for editors like me with my eyes. I will not comment here again. Flying Jazz (talk) 18:06, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

References

WP:NPA breech following NPOV, THIRDPARTY breeches

Last year I filed a RfC against User:Middayexpress for repeated violations of NPOV in regarding to Somalia related articles, and associated continual removals of WP:THIRDPARTY sources, often replacing them with official or less scholarly sources. ( Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Middayexpress) He drove me away from editing Wikipedia for a time with his relentless POV reverting, and it appears that User:Chuckupd complained of the same problem. Recently I've come into contact with User:Cordless Larry who has reported similar problems at Somalis in the United Kingdom, most recently removal of complete information in violation of WP:YESPOV and replacing high-quality sources such as the Economist with letters to the editor of a community newspaper. Having been advised that AN/I was an appropriate route, and possibly more user-friendly than Arbcom, I began collation of a draft AN/I response in my userspace. This I set up at a very old draft page, User:Buckshot06/Sandbox Structure of the Soviet Ground Forces, not being too worried about what the page title was. Within about 24 hours Middayexpress was commenting on it at [200], calling it a 'copy of his previous rant'. I've been trying over and over again to correct this editor's misrepresentation, and myself, and users User:Cordless Larry and User:BrumEduResearch [201] [202] are only the latest that are very concerned with this user's edits. I would like User:Middayexpress warned that even if there are disputes over content, or even NPOV, that dismissing editors' descriptions as a 'rant' is a personal attack, and in violation of the spirit of building an encyclopedia. Kind regards Buckshot06 (talk) 03:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

There have been multiple content disputes about Somalis in the United Kingdom that are not entirely civil but are basically content disputes. I have recommended in the recent past, and will recommend again, that they request formal mediation. There are too many disputes for any light-weight dispute resolution process. A mediator should be able to get the parties to be civil and to engage in useful discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

There have been multiple content disputes at a wide range of articles - my initial involvement was at Somali Civil War and Somali Armed Forces. Many display the same characteristics. I was directed to a RfC, but at the very end of that RfC I was told it was the wrong forum. Then I was advised about AN/I. I'd like to avoid having to go through every last forum before having to resort to Arbcom - are you sure that RfM is the correct place? Buckshot06 (talk) 05:12, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Consider WP:RFM as it will give the opportunity to settle this in a civil environment.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 06:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon has indeed suggested mediation for the Somalis in the United Kingdom, and I have been preparing to request that, for the education section in particular. I remain willing to do so, but what has been slowing me down with the request is that I've been taking in Middayexpress's behaviour across a wider range of articles. I am increasingly convinced that this is no longer a simple content dispute but rather an issue of user conduct across a range of articles and their talk pages, including Somalia, Somali Civil War and Piracy off the coast of Somalia. Here are some of my concerns:

• Repeated replacement or removal of material in the name of "contextualisation", such as this;
• Removal of third-party and secondary sources, either replacing them with primary sources, or sources that don't support the material, or without replacing them, as is being discussed currently on the RS noticeboard; see also this for another example, discussed here; previous discussions on the RS noticeboard have attracted comments such as "Oh! That editor has had similar problems with source-misuse in the past. I hope that can be stopped soon";
• Removal of material based on reliable academic sources, using WP:REDFLAG as justification (in this example, the text removed was "Vertovec gives the example of Somalis in the United Kingdom, arguing that the Somali community includes British citizens, refugees and asylum-seekers, people granted exceptional leave to remain, undocumented migrants, and secondary migrants from other European states", sourced to an article by Vertovec in the scholarly journal Ethnic and Racial Studies);
• Continued insistence that official government sources must be preferred to scholarly ones (I suggest searching Talk:Somalis in the United Kingdom for the word "official"), contrary to WP:RS;
• Misrepresentation of Wikipedia policy, for example claiming that the fact that WP:CRITERIA states that article title consistency is a goal rather than a hard and fast rule is superseded by the statement that "this page documents an English Wikipedia policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow";
• Posting talk page comments that seem to insinuate that other editors who disagree with him/her might be members of hate groups, e.g. this and this;
• Not assuming good faith with new editors, such as BrumEduResearch and with User:HOA Monitor (this comment added by Buckshot06) [203];
• Stating that my requesting mediation would constitute forum shopping, while not being ashamed to tag-team edit, as was previously discussed here (note that concerns about Middayexpress accusing others of canvassing but engaging in it him/herself have been expressed before;
• Claiming the support of editors without them having even commented on the issue under discussion, as previously reported by BrumEduResearch;
• Accusing me of WP:HOUNDING for agreeing with him/her.

Additionally, I have looked at the comments Middayexpress has made upon being informed of Buckshot's AN/I draft, and I am concerned that Middayexpress is intending to engage in canvasing off-Wikipedia. I quote: "I'm not sure why he believes that getting rid of me will solve his problems. In actuality, that will only be the start of them because loads of Somalis, Ethiopians, Eritreans and others will subsequently join the website and see the sytemic bias that goes on here. For the moment, just you, me, 26oo, Inayity, and a few other regulars on the Africa WikiProject are aware of it. But with me elsewhere, doing other things and no longer bound by Wikipedia's rules, that will surely be the catalyst that open's Pandora's Box". Middayexpress has previously made reference to posting on external forums in order to solicit opinion, here and here.

I don't want to flood this page with comments, so I will leave it there for now, but I can provide more examples of the above should they be required. As I say, I'm happy to request mediation for Somalis in the United Kingdom, but this is a bigger and longstanding issue, as these archives show. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:59, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Should note that I have also noted (and inserted above) another example of not WP:AGFing in regard to a new editor, in addition to BrumEduResearch, User:HOA Monitor (.. ("huge" doubt..). HOA Monitor is no longer editing. I am very dismayed that there are strong indications that Middayexpress is driving away and discouraging multiple editors in this fashion - the project needs all the committed people that it can get, not just the ones that accord with his point of view. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:23, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I registered a Wimipedia account to contribute to article about migrant communities in the UK, which I research, and was immediately targeted with accusations by Middayexpress. He continues to overrule reliable academic sources in favour of official statistics, and rules out compromises using both types. A good example is in the coverage of Somali pupils' GCSE results, where he insists on reporting only figures from a few London boroughs even though data on other parts of England exists. Unsurprisingly, the London boroughs just happen to be where Somali pupils do best. This fits the POV pattern described here. To be honest, I have wasted my time arguing with Middayexpress, which could have been spent better on other articles, but he is so persistent that it is hard to avoid. What worries me is that he edits many, many articles and that some have few other editors, so of he's getting away with POV where Cordless Larry and Buckshot have noticed, what is he getting away with on other less watched articles?BrumEduResearch (talk) 10:37, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• I share the concerns about Middayexpress' pov-pushing; I've encountered blanking, source-misuse &c on other pages (I tend not to overlap much with Buckshot06 or Cordless Larry). The previous RfC/U was overrun by people canvassed by MiddayExpress. Now Buckshot06 tries to put together another case and the attacks and canvassing start again. How can this be stopped? bobrayner (talk) 13:19, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

As of now I am only going to make a few comments. For starts, that page isn't a "very old draft page" nor it is even "old" at all since you made it just yesterday. It contains pretty much the same thing from your previous filing at Request For Comment which other changes as well (some removals as well as the additions of Somalis in the United Kingdom). Anyways, Midday isn't "canvasing off-Wikipedia" at all (or has at least not engaged in any yet) CordlessLarry. Just look at the IPs and accounts that have shown up these past few years, are these all the good individuals that Midday has called up to support him? No. In fact, practically none were here to do some actual work. Hence why he calls it "Pandora's box" because I, 26oo, and few others will be the only ones left to deal with it following his departure. More importantly, do you mind explaining as to why you didn't notify Midday about this AN/I Buckshot06? You did remember to notify Chuckupd, BrumEduResearch, CordlessLary, and many more. That's quite peculiar since the instructions explicitly state: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page". Oddly enough, this isn't the first time it has happened (see the previous filing at Request For Comment). Maybe you simply forgot again? It's possible, but you don't explain last time as to why. AcidSnow (talk) 14:53, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I think Middayexpress was informed, User:AcidSnow. I'm not saying that Midday is canvasing off Wikipedia at the moment (that would probably be hard to establish anyway); it's more the implied threat to do so in future that concerns me. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policies apply to actual Wikipedia editors ("This page documents an English Wikipedia behavioral guideline[...] It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow"). Worry all you want, but I'll be free to discuss whatever I want with whomever I want once I leave the website for good. That's one of the many amusing ironies of this witchhunt :) Middayexpress (talk) 18:21, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh I see it now, my apologize BuckShot06. AcidSnow (talk) 15:51, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

How many other allies has Middayexpress canvassed? bobrayner (talk) 16:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I could easily post the ample evidence against Buckshot et al., similarly caricature and exaggerate standard contest disputes, ping/canvass select editors like he has, and pick apart his latest rant. But I won't even bother. A vandal ip already tipped me off weeks ago that something was brewing, so this witchhunt is actually no surprise. The ironic part of all this is that I'd been meaning to retire from the website at the end of the summer. However, since Wikipedia is unfortunately no longer what it used to be, now is as good of a time to do that as any. When I joined the website seven years ago, good faith editors abounded. Many of those moved on ages ago to other things; it's time I followed suit and let a new generation of Horn editors assume the mantle. So long, website, and good luck to the last remaining good faith editors among you! Middayexpress (talk) 18:21, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Attacking other editors is not the kind of answer we had been hoping for. How many other allies has Middayexpress canvassed? bobrayner (talk) 18:41, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The reply is worrying too. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Inayity&diff=663644500&oldid=663440105 BrumEduResearch (talk) 00:26, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Afterthought, Caution, Notes

Maybe I was too optimistic in suggesting formal mediation for Somalis in the United Kingdom. I had been hoping that maybe the editors were willing to dial down their hostility and work to collaborate on the article. Instead, it seems that some of them want one more round before going to mediation, and there are claims of off-wiki canvassing. The only alternative to formal mediation, now, not later, is community action, which could be general sanctions or topic-bans. Continuing to spar and try to gain position prior to mediation isn't the right way to go into mediation. I suggest that this thread be closed with one of the following: (1) agreement by all parties to immediate formal mediation (not waiting for X or Y or Z and then mediation); (2) community general sanctions; (3) topic-bans on one or more editors; (4) failing those, a formal caution that any further reports at this noticeboard will result in general sanctions or topic-bans. This dispute has taken too much community time already. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:57, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, I am prepared to request formal mediation for Somalis in the United Kingdom now. However, other editors (Buckshot06 and bobrayner) have expressed concerns about Middayexpress's editing of multiple other articles. Would separate mediations have to take place for each article if that option were to be taken? Cordless Larry (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

In general, formal mediation is limited to one article (or possibly to one article and closely related articles), although you might ask that at the Requests for Mediation talk page. If other editors have concerns about Middayexpress's editing of other articles, those other articles would need to be addressed with separate content dispute resolution procedures, such as discussion at article talk pages (always the first choice), or the dispute resolution noticeboard, or Requests for Comments, or the other editors can present diffs to show that Middayexpress is a disruptive editor or POV-pusher, if that is what they think, and request community action. Proceeding with content dispute resolution and conduct issues at the same time is deprecated. Do not request mediation if you are also planning to request ANI action, and a mediator will probably decline the case if ANI action is also pending. Are there one or more content disputes, where the involved editors are willing to dial down their hostility and work with a mediator or let the community decide via RFC, or do the editors think that there are conduct issues that interfere with content resolution? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

One possible concern is that off-Wikipedia canvassing or coaching of other editors might interfere, particularly since Middayexpress is now saying things like "Wikipedia's policies apply to actual Wikipedia editors...Worry all you want, but I'll be free to discuss whatever I want with whomever I want once I leave the website for good" and saying that he/she will publicise this dispute in the media. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The Wikipedia guideline against canvassing is about on-wiki canvassing. Do threats of off-wiki canvassing violate that policy also? Is there a policy or guideline authorizing a block for threats of off-wiki canvassing? Robert McClenon (talk) 21:13, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, WP:BLOCK allows a block for '..attempts to coerce actions of editors through threats of actions outside the Wikipedia processes, whether onsite or offsite.' Personally I believe a block is warranted for disruptive editing and POVpushing in addition to trying to game the system (such as substantive edits concealed by edit summaries of 'formatting'). Buckshot06 (talk) 22:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I have struck my proposal for formal mediation, because it is clear that an editor who is talking about publicizing Wikipedia controversies to the press is not here to collaborate on the encyclopedia. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:19, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on policy in this area, but could it be covered by WP:MTPPT, which states "Do not recruit your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you for the purpose of coming to Wikipedia and supporting your side of a debate"? The people reading the press concerned aren't all going to agree with Middayexpress, of course, but the publicity might be written in such a way to attract editors of a similar mindset, particularly if the dispute is described in terms claimed bias against Somalia on Wikipedia. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:28, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Whatever takes place off the website or not (I think likely well handled by MTPPT), I would like the behaviour exhibited by Middayexpress formally marked. Robert, you've just seen the kind of tactics Cordless Larry, Bobrayner, BrumEduResearch, Chuckupd, StoneProphet (from the earlier RfC) and I have all been concerned of, and these have occurred across multiple articles. Personally I would still like to request a topic ban. This is because one can 'unretire' at any time, and there has been some discussion of canvassing off-wiki. Personally I would request a topic ban from all Somalia-related articles, for whatever the usual duration is (is that six months?). Buckshot06 (talk) 21:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Am I right to be worried about this exchange of contact details with AcidSnow? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:AcidSnow&diff=prev&oldid=664003413 BrumEduResearch (talk) 23:46, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Not at all. AcidSnow (talk) 23:50, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

This might not be relevant, but Middayexpress's comment suggesting the possibility of future off-Wikipedia canvassing centres around alleged systemic bias, and this reminded me of this discussion that he/she started. Drmies suggested that the discussion was a bit close to WP:FORUM for comfort, and that it should be taken up on a project page. Does anyone know if this happened? I ask because I would expect that if Midday was/is so concerned about systemic bias, they might have tried to raise it at a policy level (I know they posted at Talk:Racial bias on Wikipedia, as that's on my watchlist, but that's not a policy page). Cordless Larry (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Topic-Ban of User:Middayexpress from all Somalia-related topics

• Support a topic-ban from all Somalia-related topics, broadly defined. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:22, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support. If Middayexpress is telling the truth here, we have a combination of canvassing, meatpuppetry, and offsite coördination whilst maintaining a convenient veil of "retirement". That's on top of the source-abuse and POV-pushing. Canvassing has been a long-term problem - and, once coached on what to say, AcidSnow was quite effective in derailing the RfC/U of Middayexpress which could have resolved our problems so much earlier. If AcidSnow is happily proxying for Middayexpress then Acidsnow earns a topic ban too. bobrayner (talk) 01:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Wow, wow, wow calm down. I am neither a proxy or anything similar to that for Midday or any other user. Anyways, as I previously explains, Midday wasn't coaching me as to what to say. All I asked for is what was going on and what exactly does one do here since, as I stated "I would reply to this but I am not really sure how this work". Hence why he replied with: "Thanks. You'd post in the area under Dougweller, where the code instructs to endorse your own post (the top half is meant to remain unsigned). Note that the nature of the process is non-binding anyway; it's informal and cannot impose/enforce involuntary sanctions. It's meant to help reach voluntary agreements". As I asked you twice already last time, can you please explain how these diffs support you? If not, then please drop it. Although I am not sure how you have come to call me out for something baseless, I would like for both of us to move on after this. Ok? AcidSnow (talk) 03:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support a topic-ban for Middayexpress from all-Somalia-related articles, broadly defined. Canvassing may also need to be addressed at a later point, possibly including topic bans of other users. I strongly agree meat/sockpuppets may soon emerge. Buckshot06 (talk) 04:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
• As an involved editor, for what it's worth, I support a topic ban from Somalia-related articles for Middayexpress. I think we would then need to carefully monitor those articles for signs of puppetry. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support Robert's proposal for blocking Middayexpress from Somalia-related articles. Will leave it to others to decide if action is required about the possibility of him exerting influence via AcidSnow and others.BrumEduResearch (talk) 10:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
• I am not involved, but supporting a topic ban for User:Middayexpress, it is getting worse, not better. Opposing a topic ban for AcidSnow now, but if Acidsnow is a proxy for a banned editor in future, can we come back to this? Spumuq (talq) 12:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree with that approach. While AcidSnow seems to share Middayexpress's POV on most issues, he/she has proven more amenable to discussion and compromise than Middayexpress ever has. If there is any sign of puppetry in future, the issue can always be revisited. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - Inserting a comment to prevent archiving. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:21, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Would still like this addressed and resolved - this is definitely *not* an inactive issue. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support - There have been many complaints and ANI threads about MiddayExpress in this topic area and a topic ban is years overdue.[204]-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:58, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Bear in mind that topic ban proposal in 2013 was closed as "no consensus". The only two people who opposed a ban were Inayity, who was canvassed here, and Obiwankenobi, who was canvassed here. The same canvassing brought down the 2014 RfC/U of Middayexpress: [205] [206] [207] [208] &c. bobrayner (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Shagadelicbasil23 and null edits again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There was a previous discussion about User:Shagadelicbasil23 for many repitions of bad edits, especially making numerous, pointless null edits- discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive883#User:Shagadelicbasil23 This discussion culminated in an admin warning here from @Philg88:.

Despite this admin warning, and a final warning from myself for making null edits here after null edit here, they are continuing to make null edits, and other unhelpful edits, and have made no contact with any users about these actions.

Null edit: [209] Not obeying protocol of alphabetical order: [210]

I think there's a few more diffs as well, will add them if I find them. The problem is that lots of their edits are unhelpful, the null edits are annoying, and they frequently go against well-established principles (for example WP:VERIFY, WP:NOTNEWS, listing umpires alphabetically, listing best bowler as the one who's conceded fewest runs, not best economy rate). They're just not co-operative with anyone, I've only once ever received a message from them, and never a reply to any complaints posted on their talkpage.

@PeeJay2K3: @Lugnuts: @Philg88: Because you were all involved in last discussion. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:34, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this was happening on another article since the last warning. Another null edit and adding unsourced content. The latter was only verified today. Very unhelpful edits all round. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 12:45, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Let me start by saying I'm always grateful when people want to help out with updating cricket articles on Wikipedia. God knows there aren't enough cricket fans any more. However, when editors such as Shagadelicbasil23 come along and treat Wikipedia as their own pet project with no regard for collaboration, that's a problem. He keeps making null edits and I can't explain why; my best guess would be that he just likes having his name at the top of the edit history. There's no place for that kind of behaviour here and either Shagadelicbasil23 needs to sort himself out or he needs to go away. – PeeJay 13:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Peejay, lots of his edits are good, but there's also far too many that aren't, and show they're ignoring editors by making the same errors. As for the null edits, they've been asked about them multiple times- initially I thought it could be something like they make phone posts and so it happens accidentally. But combined with them not giving explanation, and other non-collaborative behaviour I think they might just like themselves at the top of the edit history. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Another pointless edit, this time made after this thread was started. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

They've not bothered to come here and defend themselves, yet continue to edit, and used the "thank" function to thank me for the edit where I gave the, the ANI notification. Their editing just super confuses me sometimes. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked until they start responding on their talk page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jagged 85 evading ban

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Banned editor Jagged 85 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is apparently active again using various IPs. 86.176.253.179 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 86.176.251.97 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and possibly others have been making a large number of problematic edits to Electric blues, Blues rock, Origins of rock and roll, and related artist and song articles. They add original research, synthesis, copyvio or closely paraphrased material, etc. in an attempt to push barely sustainable minority or fringe views. Their edits are not supported by RS, which often include only a bare url link to a book or blog. In many cases, these IP edits are identical or similar to those by Jagged 85 from 5 to 6 July 2012[211], such as Origins of rock and roll, Electric blues, Willie Johnson, Moanin' in the Moonlight (Howlin' Wolf album), etc. They also follow Jagged 85's past patterns of introducing large amounts of misinformation to Muslim and computer game articles (see User Jagged_85 and abuse of sources discussion at ANI[212]). A range block or other measures may be necessary to prevent ban evasion. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:22, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

If this guy is screwing around with Moanin' in the Moonlight he needs to be stopped now. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:02, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

If you feel this user is evading a ban using sockpuppets, you should file a sockpuppet investigation following the instructions here. SilverSurfingSerpent (talk) 17:20, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

User is not using multiple Wikipedia accounts and evading the ban would seem the main concern. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:41, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@SilverSurfingSerpent: WP:SPI generally can't confirm IP addresses to usernames for privacy reasons. ― Padenton|✉   21:10, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• More info: WP:Jagged 85 cleanup and WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Jagged 85/Archive. Johnuniq (talk) 12:05, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Added at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jagged 85. —Ojorojo (talk) 22:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cjhanley

User user:Cjhanley is a former AP reporter whose work earned him a Pulitzer. Unfortunately, it was found to have some holes in it, and he has taken this real world fight to Wikipedia. The author who initially embarrassed the AP team wrote a competing book on the subject and Hanley went so far as to contact the publisher and pressured them not to release it.

Now, one of the three AP writers, Charles Hanley, is apparently trying to suppress publication of a new book -- "No Gun Ri: A Military History of the Korean War Incident" -- that takes another view of what happened at No Gun Ri. The book, written by U.S. Army Maj. Robert Bateman, is highly critical of the AP story, calling into question the reporters' sources and research. But Bateman's book isn't the first time the AP story has been criticized.

He has been arguing for nearly 2 years that all of this material should be removed and has begun a large canvassing effort to accomplish this [213]. Interestingly enough, he has pinged nearly every editor I have had even an interaction with on this project. His COI is obvious, but no actions were taken when it was brought to the community’s attention [214].

Now he’s attempting to dig for information about me off wiki as well [215].

His non stop insults about me, and a recent allegation that I am some kind of White Supremacist have put me over the edge though.

Hanley needs to be banned from this article immediately. WeldNeck (talk) 17:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

A topic ban would seem appropriate in this case. Maybe we could have a vote on it to see if there is consensus to topic ban him. SilverSurfingSerpent (talk) 17:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse a topic ban, but we should ensure that Cjhanley is given the standard advice to biography subjects on how to correct errors of fact (rather than interpretations of fact with which you disagree) without violating policy or damaging your reputation. Guy (Help!) 17:22, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban as well, given this user's problematic behavior. SilverSurfingSerpent (talk) 17:25, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Looking at this diff, it seems like it's another editor, Oilyguy, who is calling you a white Nationalist. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:Liz, @User:JoeSperrazza, Did you see the part of Cjhanley's post [216] which reads "He has great interest in the subject of guns, and in some imagined threat to the white race called Cultural Marxism". (This was cited in Weldneck's original complaint.)--Wikimedes (talk) 23:34, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

There are a lot of people on Wikipedia who are kind of obsessed with the subject of cultural Marxism. I don't see him saying the editor was a "White Supremacist". And you are completely ignoring that Oilyguy did say white Nationalist. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

You're right, "some imagined threat to the white race" is not the same as "White Supremacist", but it does seem to be an accusation of racism. (I had not meant to say anything about Oilyguy's comments. Cultural Marxism is completely new to me.)--Wikimedes (talk) 01:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. @JzG, this is not a "biography subject," this is a Pulitzer winning career journalist and book author, a subject expert. Carrite (talk) 19:38, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@Carrite: "subject experts" aren't exempted from the fourth pillar. And the article will be just fine without him, just like any other article subject. ― Padenton|✉   19:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Really? And that means User:Brian Josephson, who has a Nobel prize, is free to promote woo to his heart's content, does it? The problem is clearly and credibly identified. Respecting someone's achievements does not give them a free pass on Wikipedia. Guy (Help!) 15:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse (edit conflict)Multiple attempts at inappropriate WP:CANVASSING, a guideline which is generally expected to be common sense, especially for a professional journalist. Specifically, the inappropriate canvassing violations here are Campaigning (at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history diff, also directly copying and pasting another editors comments including their signatures without any statement that it was copied and not posted by that user), and spamming (and possibly votestacking, here:diff). I see numerous assume good faith and civility failures in these 2 diffs as well, and numerous personal attacks. I find it interesting, given the fact that he has almost no editing history for the past year, that he chooses memorial day to wage this new assault on the article. ― Padenton|✉   19:39, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I have nominated User:Cjhanley/Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre, a page linked from User:Cjhanley for WP:MFD as it violates WP:POLEMIC. That discussion is here: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Cjhanley/Attack on No Gun Ri Massacre. ― Padenton|✉   19:59, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I can only assume anyone supporting this idea of banning me from the No Gun Ri Massacre article is not familiar with what has been going on at that article for the past two years, and is unaware that my colleagues and I, along with academic acquaintances, have by far the greatest wealth of knowledge and documentation relating to the subject in the English language. I urge any interested parties simply to review the section "Reader Beware" that was posted at Talk:No Gun Ri Massacre to get some sense of the damage that has been done by WeldNeck, at [[217]]. I use the past tense because WeldNeck unilaterally deleted my Talk posting within minutes. Isn't that the kind of offense that warrants a topic ban? In fact, his behavior should have been dealt with by late 2013 by responsible admins. Finally, to suggest that "the article will be just fine without him (Cjhanley), just like any other article subject" is to underline the problem that a huge number of serious people in the world have with Wikipedia, the attitude that "we don't need subject-matter experts; any Tom, Dick or Harry can write about anything." Driving experts away from WP will only deepen its problems. Thanks. Charles J. Hanley 22:46, 25 May 2015 (UTC) Cjhanley (talk)

• This edit, seems inappropriate, per WP:TPO. The materiel meets none of the listed criteria that would make it eligible for User:WeldNeck to remove them. The comments very specifically discuss the article and ways that User:Cjhanley feels it should be improved. The revert should be reversed, ideally by User:WeldNeck. JoeSperrazza (talk) 02:07, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban.

1. From the diffs presented, the complaints are either unfounded (e.g., per Liz) or don't show edits that are either disruptive or unsourced. He may need some guidance on Wiki policies and procedures, and at most perhaps a mentor for traversing Wikipedia's sometimes arcane rules.
2. In addition, I also agree with User:Carrite and offer the following rationale. Like it or not, there is a long precedence in WP in allowing competence to trump certain policies, as documented in numerous noticeboard and arbitration cases. Surely, per WP:IAR, if nothing else, it is for the good of WP for the community to engage subject matter experts and help them. We don't want to end up in a situation such as this. I don't mean to say we're there, but let's turn the ship and avoid it. JoeSperrazza (talk) 02:45, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

@JoeSperrazza: - you dont see a COI with Hanley and his attempt to exclude a source that embarrassed him professionally? WeldNeck (talk) 13:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support the topic ban and I find his choice of days to begin this fight absolutely disgusting. WeldNeck (talk) 13:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

!vote by nom above (stricken). Normally nominator doesn't !vote too. As one of the two parties, seems inappropriate to !vote too. Widefox; talk 01:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support a ban on editing the article, but not the talk page. Someone with an obvious and significant conflict of interest should not be editing the article. However, talk page suggestions for changes to the article should be allowed and should be evaluated by uninvolved editors. Deli nk (talk) 14:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Both users User:Cjhanley and User:WeldNeck have behaved inappropriately, in my opinion. COI is a real issue, plus the level of personal attacks by both sides. I present:

WeldNeck attacks Cjhanley's credibility: [218]

WeldNeck deletes an entire section by Cjhanley: [219]

Cjhanley attacks WeldNeck multiple times: [220]

While I initially sympathized with each user for different reasons, I think the conduct is unacceptable. We need uninvolved editors working to ensure quality on this sensitive article. Examining the talk archives, it is clear that this is yet another resurgence of the same dispute from years back, and nothing has changed.

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that removing his talk page entry may not have been in the best spirit of things, but I am sick to death of the constant attacks from Hanley on me which has now moved onto Hanley trolling outside Wikipedia to dig up information on me. The entire section I deleted has been replicated several times on Hanley's personal talk page as well as the article's talk page. Its the textbook definition of tendentious. I have never edit warred on that article and every significant edit I have made included a explanation on the talk page. WeldNeck (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Further evidence (from the previous debate in 2014):

Personal attacks:[221][222][223]

Another implicit attack on Cjhanley: [224]

My (2015) comment that reignited the whole thing in the first place: [225]

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:53, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Although neither editor is blameless in this content dispute, I think that Cjhanley's apparent belief that he is the only expert on the subject runs counter to the collaborative nature of this project. Miniapolis 00:38, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Hold Our Horses (is that an option?) See submission on the same article below. I think we're going to try to work this out in talk. Both users at least pay lip service to thinking that it's a good idea. So we're going to take this an edit at a time and see if things will remain civil long enough to get something done. If anyone wishes to volunteer, I would love to have a fourth or fifth commenter that I can ping if needed to the talk to back me up (or tell me I'm stupid...either one works) if this gets (every bit as) nasty (as it has been for two years). So, I apologize for abusing the parenthetical. I suppose you can come over to my talk if you would like to volunteer. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 05:44, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Hanley's COI, and canvassing still needs to be deal with. WeldNeck (talk) 15:40, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

WeldNeck, do you have a WP:COI as well? WP:BOOMERANG (disclaimer: I was canvassed here). nom's vote stricken above. Widefox; talk 01:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

A large part of this issue is that Weld seems to have rarely sought and (AFAIK) never gotten consensus on his edits. Hanley doesn't seem to understand policy well enough to know that a lack of consensus defaults to no change to the article. So intentionally or unintentionally, Weld has exploited Hanley's lack of understanding to do basically whatever he wants. I have addressed a lack of consensus in no uncertain terms on the talk. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 07:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Not that I am aware of .... just a love of history and a strong sense of justice. WeldNeck (talk) 01:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

WeldNeck Let me put it another way...you've been or are employed by the US military. Correct? The topic is a historical US military event. Widefox; talk 07:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

There are 21.8 million veterans of the U.S. armed forces as of 2014, are you saying every one has a COI and cannot edit? WeldNeck (talk) 16:53, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Widefox: Are you serious? You think everyone who has ever been employed by the US military has a COI on any military-related article? Do you realize they're generally the only ones who build these articles? Well, I guess it's convenient to declare that anyone who disagrees with you must have a COI, but I don't think you'll have much luck with that one. ― Padenton|✉   17:04, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

It would be good to have other experienced editors as "backup" if things deteriorate. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:33, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Padenton: 1. logical problem with that argument: big employer ≠ COI, 2. strawman argument: nobody said all military history (and nobody said COI can't edit, or no human can't edit a biography either). Back to the point, see WeldNeck's edit history for pro US military POV-pushing (including a BLP violation) for reporters exposing US military errors. This is the second one I've seen. COI may be a cause, but we don't know as there's (so far) no simple COI statement. Are you saying nobody in the US military has a COI? Valid to ask, right? If this was another country's, say the Chinese military or Russian, would that be different? Widefox; talk 23:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Full disclosure, I am also military. If that's a COI then so be it. But perhaps it's important to note that most of the things I've learned about the military, I did not learn because I was in the military; I learned them because I was interested in military history. Not everyone drinks the Kool-Aid. Some people understand that war is bad and bad things happen in war. To anyone who thinks the US military is blameless: Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would like a word with you please. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 08:14, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support 3 month topic ban or moderation by Timothyjoshephwood and GeneralizationsAreBad. Cjhanley’s repeated ad hominims against Weldneck on the No Gun Ri article’s talk page need to stop. (Weldneck also occasionally takes a swipe at Cjhanley, but much less often.) In this post, [226], 2 days into this ANI thread, Cjhanley goes so far as to title a section on the article talk page “A brief WeldNeck primer (please do read):”. Additionally, both the article and Cjhanley would benefit from some time away from Cjhanley’s WP:ownership of the article. On the other hand, I’ve found that it is possible to work with Cjhanley, it would be a shame to lose a subject matter expert, and I think Cjhanley is still capable of making positive contributions to the article. So while IMHO Cjhanley has well earned a topic ban, if this is the result I hope that it will be of limited duration. On the other hand, Timothyjoshephwood appears to be taking the talk page firmly in hand, and his and GeneralizationsAreBad’s efforts may accomplish the same things.--Wikimedes (talk) 03:30, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

As stated above, I do not think a block is an appropriate solution. Part of the reason there is a situation is that Weld has consistently made substantial edits when no consensus exits, and has maintained those edits after much argument making it abundantly clear that no consensus exists. He has, in good or bad faith, abused Hanley's lack of understanding of WP:CON. Weld continued to make edits with no consensus after I began trying to moderate, and after being explicitly asked to postpone editing until we can talk things through. It took "you're wrong and at this point I'm going to revert any and all of your edits until to pass them through the talk page" to get him to stop. Hanely has clearly violated WP:CIVIL, but has done so out of frustration with Weld's violation of WP:CON. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 07:30, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

No consensus can exist with Mr Hanley as long as you dont hold his POV. I haven't had issues with anyone else on the article and have worked fairly well with them. One user with both a personal and professional interest in the article refuses to consider any material that does not conform with the reporting he has done on it. WeldNeck (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The issue is that per WP:NOCON, when no consensus can be reached in proposals to add to or change the article, the default is to not add or change. You have ignored this. If no consensus can be reached with Hanley, the correct action is to draw uninvolved editors to the page to evaluate the arguments, which is what we are doing now. Rather than doing this you have simply added your edits and repeatedly reverted any attempt to remove or change them. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 05:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose two opposing COI POV-pushers. Standard COI editing applies. Widefox; talk 07:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Demonstrate I have a COI ... we know Hanley does and he has been very public about trying to suppress the work of competing academics. I have also striken your vote because you were (admittedly so) canvassed here. WeldNeck (talk) 16:53, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

WeldNeck, don't strike my !vote, I'm not involved or been asked to come to this page by anyone. WP:VOTESTACK doesn't say to strike. I'm not involved in the content dispute, and have not been canvassed to this page (but possibly to the talk of the article). My full disclosure doesn't mean you (as an involved party) get to disregard an opposing position, just like you can't nominate an action and vote. Widefox; talk 23:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose topic ban. There's a bit too much drama going on here, but it can be resolved through standard channels, such as NPOVN and consensus on the talk page. Removing just one of the editors would be a bad idea, as it will give the other one free rein. Not to mention that we're discussing topic banning a subject matter expert, as Carrite pointed out. The ideal solution would be for neutral editors to get involved. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban. I agree with NinjaRobotPirate, that there is so much drama here that it has muddied the waters. The only thing that is clearly apparent to me is that Talk:No Gun Ri Massacre has been a battleground between two editors with a handful of other editors trying to moderate the dispute or move past it. This dispute was brought to COIN in August 2013 without any resolution or much of a discussion so I encourage a return to WP:COIN if that is the central issue or a visit to dispute resolution if the dispute is solely over content. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 13:16, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I went to DRN, but my report was closed very quickly. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The two editors are trying to score points against one another; they've got to get beyond this, if any substantive changes to the article and talk page environment are to be made. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Roscelese and User:Stalwart111 working together

Queen Christina of Sweden (one of 6 so named, the only one who was head of state in her own right) and her sexuality have been a subject of controversy since the 17th century. Scolarly and unbiased writers have portrayed her as undefinable, asexual, bisexual or just a complete mystery in that regard. To my knowledge, there is no reliable and neutral source anywhere, i.e. one without a literary (book-selling) agenda, which attempts to stamp her life story with any specific sexual preference.

These 2 editors on English Wikipedia want us to call Christina a probable lesbian by using this top sentence under Gender ambiguity in our biography of the queen: "She is thought to have been a lesbian, and her affairs with women were noted during her lifetime." The problems are, (1) as an Rfc on the talk page concludes, which has been disregarded by these two editors, that only one source for the first part of the sentence ("She is thought to have been a lesbian") is not enough for us to display a generalization of that kind in our article text; and (2) that the second part of the sentence ("her affairs with women were noted during her lifetime") still is completely unsourced, tendentiously turning seems to and suggested (by a totally unknown 17th century person named "Guilliet" - ? - ), into "were noted".

One of Queen Christina's most knowledgeable and reliable academic biographers Sven Stolpe has clearly concluded that there is no basis to assert that she was or probably was a lesbian. Mentioning the accusations of homosexuality leveled against Christina by infamous liars, in writings such as "Princess Lucien Marat's scandalous and tacky La vie amoureuse de Christine de Suède, le reine androgyne", Stolpe reminds us of the risk that gossip intended to ruin a person's reputation in the 17th century can be imaginatively reversed and embraced in attempts to make a life story more interesting today, with spices no longer derogatory but rather trendily appealing and exciting to a vast majority of readers in 2015.

I have fought a losing battle so far in trying to balance the article on this detail. My latest effort, after a long break, was reversed within 7 minutes with the edit summary "drop it, dude", by one of these editors, and the talk page is a trail of tears and anxiety for me with a seemingly never ending sequence of personal slurs by the other one.

Please help me try to figure out if I'm wrong here, or what else besides WP:OWN might be going on, month after month. Thank you! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Serge, ultimately, this is a content dispute, which means it's not actionable at ANI. I'd recommend WP:DR or WP:3O for an issue like this. --IJBall (talk) 21:01, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

This is not within the scope of WP:3O because it involves more than two editors. The dispute resolution noticeboard or a Request for Comments are reasonable options. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:09, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I think the best way to handle this is as JzG (closer of first RFC) later suggested in Talk:Christina,_Queen_of_Sweden#Re:_RFC_result, and start a new RfC with a clearer question and clearer options. I disagree with the removal of Template:Cn, as WP:Verifiability requires "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." The source being used so far is a textbook, a WP:TERTIARY source, and therefore far from ideal. The source does not seem to support the "and her affairs with women were noted during her lifetime" claim, in the pages provided in the preview. On the contrary, it provides one person's speculation on the topic, and immediately expresses doubt on the claim. "Was Christina a lesbian? The record is complex, but the consensus of modern biographers favors that view." Not at all a ringing endorsement of the preceding claim. Consensus here referring to majority opinion, not fact. If somehow we can view other pages of this book, or if someone has access to it, that would be nice. ― Padenton|✉   21:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The claim that the cited source is a textbook isn't true; moreover, it isn't true that the source doesn't support the statement about her affairs with women being known at the time. This is a silly comment, Padenton. Serge's complaint appears to be that multiple people daring to disagree with him is evidence of some kind of conspiracy, and you shouldn't be wasting your time trying to lend it legitimacy. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:40, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

"All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." That's all I'm asking. Nothing more, nothing less. SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

@Roscelese: Whether you want to call it a 'textbook' or not is splitting hairs. The point was that it's an obviously WP:TERTIARY source. "moreover, it isn't true [...]" Show me exactly where the source supports the statement about "her affairs with women being known at the time" as you claim, as I've read it twice now. ― Padenton|✉   21:56, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Crompton attributes her breaking off her engagement with her cousin to "the attachment she formed with a young woman named Ebba Sparre", the quote about Christina calling Sparre her "bedfellow" and saying her mind was "as beautiful as her outside" is here, the Danish envoy writes that she had "hidden the beautiful Ebba Sparre in her bed and associated with her in a special way," a few more quotes from Christina's contemporaries. I don't believe you've "read it twice now". Again, I would recommend that you stop enabling this disruptive user. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:08, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

As I'm sure you already known, it was quite common for women in past centuries to have intimate relationships with other women, even living together, without it being a sexual or romantic relationship. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:27, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that your personal analysis of the primary sources trumps Louis Crompton's? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 01:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

If you had actually read the pages, you'd see that Louis Crompton says everything that Liz just said. "The Englishman was not shocked—royalty in this age often had same-sex bedmates." Bottom of page 358. The paragraph right after the sentence fragment you pasted above in fact: "The most likely explanation lies in the attachment she formed with a young woman named Ebba Sparre early in 1645." ― Padenton|✉   15:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, why do you think it's appropriate to elevate your own personal analysis of primary sources over Crompton's? He literally states that the consensus of modern biographers believes she was a lesbian and follows up with supporting details. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I never said I disagreed with Crompton. You are putting words in my mouth. Go read again what I said. This is not about the first half of the sentence, but the second. ― Padenton|✉   21:14, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The second half which follows Crompton by stating that her sexuality was noted by her contemporaries. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:35, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Except Crompton never says it. ― Padenton|✉   14:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Despite having claimed (several times) to the contrary, Serge has been unable to point these so-called "personal slurs" and this is, as has been pointed out, a content dispute. My only references to Serge, personally, were with regard to his well-established record of edit-warring, a disingenuous and invalid RFC and his refusal to discuss things before blindly reverting. With regard to content, the conflict has been whether Serge's chosen source (Stolpe) provides a better account than later biographers (Crompton, et al) who had access to additional evidence and didn't have an obvious agenda. In reality, it's a moot question anyway because the article gives an account of both views, heavily referencing Stolpe despite the obvious issues with regard to his reliability and neutrality as a source and referencing (despite Serge's attempts to remove them) Crompton and many others who, on balance of evidence, have formed their own view with regard to her sexuality. Stolpe was free to do so (through his rose-coloured, Catholic-convert, ultra-conservative, inexpert goggles) and we give an account of that. Whether Serge likes it or not, the consensus of modern biographers (ie. everyone other than Stolpe) is that she was something other than a heterosexual woman and that she had (at various points during a life punctuated by drama and bouts of deep religious devotion) relationships with both men and women including a Catholic Cardinal. The extent to which they were "relationships" as we would see them is irrelevant and our personal view as to whether or not she was straight, gay or otherwise is also irrelevant. We simply regurgitate what reliable sources say and that is exactly what has been done in the article. St★lwart¹¹¹ 03:34, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
• Worth pointing out, too, that the allegation here is that Roscelese and I are "working together". Yes, quite happily so, along with a number of other long-term editors who have contributed recently to the article and have contributed to various talk page discussions. The only individual refusing to participate in that collegial and collaborative effort is Serge, whose conduct has been the subject of some prior discussion here. A boomerang and some quiet time to reconsider his approach might be in order. St★lwart¹¹¹ 06:08, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm less involved with the article, but did jump in to revert Serge previously, which resulted in a thread about the Crompton source on my talk page. As far as the nature of this thread, there's no reason to think Roscelese and Stalwart111 are "working together" in any nefarious way. Based on the talk page threads, it seems Serge may take pointed disagreement personally. So this is ultimately a content dispute that should be addressed by a new RfC (the previous one was poorly conceived and closed as no consensus) or taken to DR (or maybe RS)? Speaking of RS, @Padenton: Why do you say it is clearly a tertiary source? The preface makes clear that the author drew on previous historical works as well as from original [ancient] sources. If it were only the former I suppose I'd understand? But then it's less likely Harvard would've published it. Also, even if it were a textbook, that doesn't necessarily mean it's tertiary or unreliable. The lower-level textbooks tend to be tertiary, but WP:RS says "Reputable tertiary sources, such as lower-level textbooks, almanacs, and encyclopedias, may be cited." Other textbooks are secondary and among the most reliable sources (again WP:RS "When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources.") — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 12:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• No opinion on the content but there does seem to be some misunderstanding regarding WP:TERTIARY above, as stated there, "tertiary" is not a way to say the source is "not ideal", a tertiary source is by policy often quite good for summarizing sources, as that's its purpose. Moreover, we often need and use tertiary sources for WP:RS/AC. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

User:SandyGeorgia/sandbox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In December 2013, User:Petrarchan47 and myself were involved in a dispute on medical cannabis with User:SandyGeorgia. Unbeknownst to me, SandyGeorgia began keeping a list of negative (and biased) material about the both of us in her sandbox page. Per WP:POLEMIC, "statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons" and "material that can be viewed as attacking other editors, including the recording of perceived flaws" should be removed if not used in a timely manner. "Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed."

Here is the full list of diffs of the disputed edits:

• 05:18, 5 December 2013[227]
• 15:11, 7 December 2013[228]
• 23:50, 8 December 2013[229]
• 03:22, 9 December 2013[230]
• 21:35, 9 December 2013[231]
• 02:11, 11 December 2013[232]
• 18:40, 11 December 2013[233]
• 01:16, 12 December 2013[234]
• 03:32, 17 December 2013[235]
• 03:35, 17 December 2013[236]
• 03:36, 17 December 2013[237]

Petrarchan47 requested deletion of the material mentioning her at 03:01, 24 May 2015.[238] However, because this material is from December 2013 and it is now May 2015 and no action has been taken since that time, I have followed the guidance and recommendations given at WP:POLEMIC and blanked it from SandyGeorgia's sandbox.[239] I have brought this here for community review. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 23:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

As much as I respect Sandy I have to say this is pretty conclusive. I feel a warning would suffice in this instance, but if a block must be imposed, it shouldn't be a long one. It's unusual to have the material for so long, so perhaps an explanation should be in order as well.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm guessing she just forgot about it. As long as it remains blanked (if she needs access to it, it's in the page history) I'm happy with the outcome. I don't see any need for a block. Viriditas (talk) 00:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

This reminds me a lot of other things that have happened recently, I hope it is kept blanked and also hope editors know not to collect enemy lists here on Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:36, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Time out. Unless I am misreading something, SandyGeorgia was asked to delete this material at "03:01 on 24 May 2015." That is less than two days ago. Checking Special:Contributions/SandyGeorgia reflects that she last edited on 23 May 2015, i.e., two and one-half days ago. That is not an unreasonable time for someone to be offline, and I'm not sure why this was brought here before SandyGeorgia had a chance to see the request on her talkpage and respond to it. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec)I think it is typical in these cases to allow the editor to delete the material rather than having an involved party delete the contents of a user page. I'd have been more comfortable if an editor who wasn't involved in this dispute had taken action here if SandyGeorgia didn't respond to the request. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec) SandyGeorgia has not edited since May 23, the day before the request was filed on her talk page. A block is definitely not warranted. I have mixed feelings about removing the material without her consent while she is away. If the material has been there since December 2013, why the sudden urgency to remove it? -- Diannaa (talk) 00:40, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Why the sudden urgency? It's been there since December 2013, it's inaccurate, it's biased, and it makes claims about editors that aren't true. I removed it per WP:POLEMIC. Is there a sudden urgency to restore it? Viriditas (talk) 00:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Just so it's clear, I didn't recommend a block, only a warning. I think the info should stay removed. Other than that, I see no any action needed as long as this activity doesn't continue.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Viriditas, my question to you is why you, an involved party, deleted the content before you had heard a response from SandyGeorgia. If there was an immediate need to remove the material (and I'm not sure there was), you should have waited for a response to this complaint at AN/I or spoken to an uninvolved administrator. I'm sure why it had to be you who leaped in and deleted the material. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I cant speak for Viriditas but seeing red would be an understandable response. This content is over 2 years old though why make a fuss over it now? In my opinion the material can be restored yes but Sandy should delete it herself if that happens. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I would appreciate an answer to my question. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:02, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't see a question. You said, "I'm not sure why this was brought here before SandyGeorgia had a chance to see the request on her talkpage and respond to it." That request on Sandy's talk page concerned Petrarchan47's request to have material about her removed from Sandy's sandbox. It has nothing to do with me. I brought this request here after having read the sandbox and noticed that it mentioned both myself and Petrarchan47. Furthermore, the diffs above aren't even relevant, accurate, or significant, and the edit summaries consist of personal attacks and derision. It appears the material was added by SandyGeorgia to her sandbox as an "enemy list" in December 2013 after being involved in a personal dispute with myself and Petrarchan47 and has no business being on Wikipedia after years without action. That's why I brought it here. I don't see why my actions should be tied to what Petrarchan47 is doing or what Sandy might or might not do in the future. In fact, I don't see any connection between either of those things. I'm my own person. Will Sandy remove it in the future? I have no idea. I removed it and brought my actions here for review. Viriditas (talk) 01:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

"Enemy list"! Looks more like she was preparing to open an RFC/u against the both of you and she forgot about it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 01:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Preparing an RFC/u based on false claims and nonexistent diffs? I think not. Good luck trying to find one, single actionable diff from that dispute. It doesn't exist. Viriditas (talk) 01:24, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Sandy has recently stated in several places that she was planning to take a few weeks off and be out of touch. I can't help but wonder if the timing of this has something to do with the knowledge that she is not available to participate in the discussion. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 01:29, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I can see you are doing a great job at WP:AGF. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:30, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

This is where we discuss user behavior. We try to follow AGF, but its a legitimate issue to raise here at ANI. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 01:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I understand that, but it would help if you provide some evidence of this in the form of a diff, otherwise it is just speculative. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:33, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, it is largely speculation. Anyways, I don't see the issue here. The content was removed for just reasons. All that is needed is for Sandy to explain her motives, but that is about it. I don't see any other wrongdoing.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I guess I'd just say that since the material has already been taken down, why not wait till she is back to hold this discussion? Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 01:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Because the content was there for too long and needed to be taken down. The discussion is to confirm whether it was justly done.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

At this point I would let it go, and also agree that no action should be taken. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you can have that discussion without Sandy's participation, so Move to close this discussion. Formerly 98 ^{talk|contribs|COI Statement} 03:28, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I have often thought that if editors don't want things to be said about them, then they should be careful not to do things that might attract comment.

I had an issue once where an editor had something written on a User page which was only a problem because it was in a place where it couldn't be replied to. Was that the problem?

Petrarchan47 Viriditas can you point to interactions between you and SandyGeorgia that indicate any attempt to get on with each other?

WP:Polemic presents: "Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities (these are generally considered divisive and removed, and reintroducing them is often considered disruptive)". How do you think that this applies?

To me you could easily comment that you see that a content is being developed and to mention that such content should not be presented in actual contravention of WP:POLEMIC.

I have long objected that Wikipedia supports private email which can blatantly WP:canvass or simply bitch about other editors. Its also relevant to note that Wikipedia is accessed by electronic devices that typically have their own memories. Anything that SandyG has written here could fairly easily have been written somewhere else.

If you think that an editor has taken a negative view of you then an approach to take may be to remind them of positive things you have done and non-negative involvements you have had. GregKaye 03:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

no means no --Jayron32 00:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I disagree that this is polemic at all, secondly, this ANI request was filed on the 24th, she publicly said she's be traveling during this time ? I'd say put the page back how she left it and give her a chance to respond. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC) Clearly, "polemic" and WP:POLEMIC are not the same thing. Viriditas (talk) 18:16, 26 May 2015 (UTC) Actually, no. WP:POLEMIC actually uses Polemic as part of it's description and includes " The compilation of factual evidence (diffs) in user subpages, for purposes such as preparing for a dispute resolution process, is permitted provided it will be used in a timely manner. " as part of the Wikipedia definition of WP:POLEMIC. What was removed was, in fact, a small compliation of factual evidence (diffs) which is actually permitted. I would make a motion that Viriditas self revert his removal of diffs in Sandy Georgia's sandbox and allow her to respond to what's being discussed. It's not like she's a known vandal or has a bad history at all with Wikipedia. Quite the opposite, also, as she stated she's on vacation at this point, so I wouldn't expect her to check in while she was. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 10:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC) This is far from the first time she's compiled an enemies list. As one of the people about whom she's done it in the past, I am considering an arbitration request, but am unsure I can spare the attention from more important things. Awaiting a response before acting.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:28, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Awaiting a response from who? Sandy is away from Wikipedia right now. Liz Read! Talk! 00:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit war over "Judeophobia"

After warning me about edit warring User:NeilN continued the edit war on a differn't article. We should probably both be blocked from the effected pages.Scientus (talk) 06:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

No. As specified by you, you made a bold edit to Antisemitism, no doubt to bolster your case at Talk:Islam_and_antisemitism#Requested_move_25_May_2015. I reverted it and explained why on the talk page. Stop trying to force through your changes. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

MOS:BOLD WP:BOLDTITLE, not WP:BOLD.Scientus (talk) 06:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Look at your edit summary. You should have known the change would be opposed, anyways. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Note that Scientus is now attempting to remove this AN/I discussion. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

attempted. No problem with having it. I just don't like to excessively bother people.Scientus (talk) 07:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The edit war stopped because I stepped back when one of your supporters reverted me. I note that neither have you have seen fit to respond to my objection on the talk page to your change. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 07:55, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

It appears Scientus should get a case of boomerang. NeilN did everything in their power to prevent an edit war after Scientus kept making controversial edits without consensus. Makes you look even more guilty when you remove the very AN/I you started with the bogus reasoning that you didn't want to "bother" anyone.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 13:16, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Attempting to remove an active ANI discussion should be grounds alone for blocking. Otherwise, it appears that the OP is attempting to use Wikipedia to create artificial notability to a theoretically legitimate but not widely used term. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:41, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Str77 and Assyrian Kings

I have been having intense difficulties persuading this user on my own to appreciate our Original Research policy and he responds by what seems to be repeated disruption to make a WP:POINT (ie removing practically every sentence there because his OR won't stand). Please see the talk section Talk:Puzur-Ashur_I#This_edit_is_typical_of_the_problem Philip Mexico (talk) 11:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm the other party in this dispute and was about to file a complaint as well. For more than a week now I have trouble with Philip Mexico due to his unwillingness to collaborate on articles.

I started working on the article Puzur-Ashur I, working in some information (some sourced, some unsourced) from the German Wikipedia. I was immediately opposed by some IP and by Philip. I had overlooked his first edit under that name and thus inadvertedly reverted it. He blanket reverted me whereas I then tried to work in his contributions as much as possible. This has always been my approach on this article and on Talk:Ila-kabkabu, whereto the dispute spilled over.

I repeatedly tried to discuss matters on the relevant talk pages, which Philip practically ignored. Thus, he was eventually blocked for his edit warring. (This can be seen on Talk:Puzur-Ashur I and Talk:Ila-kabkabu. Philipp's user talk page also shows admin User:C.Fred trying to reason with him.) After many, many backs and forth, Philip finally posted on talk pages but even then it took him a long, long time to provide sources for his preferred versions.

When he finally did provide a source, I again did my best to include it into the article. [240], whereas he insisted of inserting his previous POV.

This complaint is about behaviour but to clarify matters I will here report what the dispute is about:

1. Philip insists that a particular section of the Assyrian King List must be titled in a certain way but not in another way, clearly due to his his opposition to a certain interpretation of this section. Both titles are translations and both are sourced to academic literature but Philip rejects one as POV-pushing. I eventually compromised to insert both version, even though this makes the wording a bit cumbersome.
2. The main dispute is about the interpretation of the section, which I sourced to an academic work of reference. Philip first tried to remove it and then resorted to labelling it an interpretation held by "some" scholars, even though at the time it was the only sourced interpretation. He finally provided a source for another interpretation, which I then worked into the article. He still insisted on the word "some" (whereas in comments on the talk page) he insists how wide-spread it is. At the same time, Philip only wants some information from the source he provided to be included, other things he rejects.

I must be candid that neither of us has behaved in a pristine manner. We both have repeatedly reverted the other and yes, today I have for a moment violated WP:POINT: what I did is that I first tagged as unsourced anything that was not 100% sourced and then I removed it all, along with everything that was off topic or even remotely violating WP:SYNTH. The reason for this was, as I explained on Talk:Puzur-Ashur I, Philip's constant double standards when it comes to the requirement of sourcing information. Sometimes he inserts information without any source (be it positive assedrtions or negative contradictions of sourced scholarly view points), sometimes he removes sourced information for no valid reason (apparently when the source he provided went a little bit further than his view. See Talk:Puzur-Ashur_I#What_Mrs_Levy_actually_says)

Philip also shows no regard for tags placed into the article as an alternative to the constant reverting. He has repeteadly blanket reverted to his his version, removing the off topic tag I placed on one passage at Puzur-Ashur_I and never responded to the relevant section of the talk page.

Contrary to what Philip claims, this has never been about me wishing to push a certain POV. My history of Talk:Puzur-Ashur_I indicates that I shifted from a minimalist approach to one more inclusive in order to compromise with other editors (first an IP, then Philipp) and I even placed a request for more contributions - not support for my supposed POV but sourcing for any kind of view - at the Wikiproject Assyria [241], to which unfortunately no one has yet responded. This request came at the time Philip contradicted the sourced information in the article without bothering to provide a fitting source.

As for the IPs: several have also been involved (User:71.246.147.22, User:71.127.135.245). Based on this edit I suspect that these IPs (who via WHOIS point to the same location) are the same as Philip. Str1977 ^(talk) 11:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Those are indeed my two IP edits where I had forgot to log in and Verizon is constantly shifting IP numbers. Again, please see the talk section Talk:Puzur-Ashur_I#This_edit_is_typical_of_the_problem for my detailed explanation of what is going on. Philip Mexico (talk) 13:25, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(non admin observation) Per WP:SOCK editing while logged out can happen for innocent reasons. Unless there is deception, like agreeing with yourself in a discussion, no harm no foul.AlbinoFerret 14:52, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I never assumed anything else. However, the identity should be taken into account when looking through the history of the dispute. Str1977 ^(talk) 14:57, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Well admins, I was hoping one of you would take a look at how ridiculously hard it's been for me over 2 weeks to get this blatant synth totally misquoting Meissner, out of Puzur-Ashur I where it does not even belong. Every single time I took it out it came back. Nobody has responded yet, so tomorrow I will make one more attempt at removing the now-tagged OR. The rest of that article is still an incohesive mess, virtually every single attempt I made over two weeks to make it more cohesive got reverted too. Philip Mexico (talk) 02:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit summary by a user (who is now banned)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Earlier today I emailed the oversight team to request that an offensive edit summary by a user (who is now banned) be deleted from the revision history of the article on S.L. Benfica. I received an email back to say "Unfortunately, the edits associated with your request cannot be suppressed under our policy. If you think this matter needs attention from administrators or editors, please visit the appropriate noticeboard."

I do think that it would be appropriate for the offensive edit summary to be deleted. I would be grateful if an admin could assist with this. The user made four edits before being banned indefinitely. All four edits were vandalism, but one of them contained the offensive edit summary. Please see his or her contributions and edit summary at the following link [242]

Regards, Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 13:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• I personally think this doesn't rise to the level that it justifies revision deletion. Considering it under RD2 or RD3, the profanity in an edit summary is only slightly disruptive in this case, so the value of an intact and transparent log outweighs any value deletion of the summaries would bring. I don't see any indication the editor is banned, while they were blocked indefinitely, to justify deletion of material, the material must be added by an already blocked or banned editor in violation of that block or ban. If you can identify a previously blocked/banned editor who this new account is a sockpuppet of, you may be able to get someone to delete under RD5, but I would still abstain myself. Monty₈₄₅ 13:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
• Yeah, garden variety profanity doesn't really fit under our deletion criteria, which mostly cover stuff that's way over the top - if we deleted every "fuck" someone used on Wikipedia, we'd have very little time left to do anything else. As Monty says, if you can explain some more about the banned user situation, it's possible it would fit under another criterion, but my feeling right now is that if we'd need to work that hard to find a reason to make it delete-able, it's probably not something that really needs to be nuked. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 13:55, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanations. I personally felt that the edit summary was inappropriate. A couple of times before in the past, when I have contacted the oversight team about a similar type of offensive or inappropriate edit summary, the email that I have received before from the oversight team has said: "After review, we have determined that suppression is not warranted for these edits, but we have used the Revision Deletion extension (which allows the edits to be viewed by administrators only) to remove this content since they fall within the revision deletion policy as inappropriate content."

So although I felt myself that the offensive edit summary came under the category of "inappropriate content" which falls within the revision deletion policy, I do accept your reasons if you disagree with the need to delete it.

Regards, Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 14:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

My view is that while it's obviously offensive and inappropriate, it's not so shocking as to justify the rather dramatic step of revision deletion, let alone oversight. WP:CRD lists when we can use RevDel, and I think this qualifies as "ordinary" incivility. Not that you were in any way wrong to ask the question, of course. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 15:26, 26 May 2015 (UTC).

The thing is that I've seen edit summaries that are not as profane as this rev'deltd. Of course, other stuff exists. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:57, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editor removing commas at random

MitchellPritchettLSD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is deleting commas at random, with no regard for grammar.[243][244][245][246] I reverted a few, but all of his edits look pointless and should be rolled back. KateWishing (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

First he needs to be blocked, then they could be rolled back. This is once of those cases where it would be nice for established editors to be able to issue temporary blocks without having to wait for the admin corps to wake up. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Another obvious sock who is doing the same thing: AndersonCooper11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)[247] This is probably related to the recent Acid420 report. CheckUser for sleepers? KateWishing (talk) 14:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding like a useless admin, the ones I looked at look like good faith errors (removing Oxford commas, and the like). I'm not convinced from what I've seen that this is malicious, which is where it'd need to be before I'd consider blocking and doing a mass rollback. Has there been any attempt made to discuss this with the editor before bringing it here? Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 15:30, 26 May 2015 (UTC).

I don't see a problem either - I'm not a big fan of commas and the few diffs I looked at seemed to make the sentence flow more naturally. Unless there's been a conversation about the pros and cons of MOS:COMMA, I think any administrative action is premature. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The editor is removing commas that are grammatically required, not just Oxford commas.

• The diagnostic criteria require that symptoms become apparent in early childhood, typically before age three[248]
• The most common form today is known as a residential garden, but the term garden has traditionally been a more general one.[249]

I'd rather not go through every one of his edits and check whether they are actively harmful or merely pointless. More importantly, the edits seem to have no purpose other than inflating sockpuppet edit count. AndersonCooper11 (talk · contribs) and MitchellPritchettLSD (talk · contribs) both deleted commas from the same number article (9).[250][251] The similarity of usernames and edit style between MitchellPritchettLSD (talk · contribs) and Acid420 (talk · contribs) is also probably not a coincidence. Three of Acid420's previous socks also targeted number articles (3, 6, 8).[252][253][254] KateWishing (talk) 16:51, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Found another WP:DUCK: CamTuckerLSD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) KateWishing (talk) 17:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like this is an issue for a sock puppet investigation, not AN/I. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Don't pass the buck. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:30, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

It's not my call, I'm not an admin. And it seems like the primary concern now is socking, not commas. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Since you realize it's not your call, you should line-out your original comment. Let the admins decide what to do. Socks are often blocked strictly from evidence posted here. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Seriously, because I suggested starting a sock puppet investigation? The admins are going to do what they they are going to do, regardless of my suggestion to the OP. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

SPI's are a pain to construct and they're typically dismissed by the checkusers. If you want to go through that waste of time, go ahead and file an SPI. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

All these ducks worry me. This appears that someone is trying to make a WP:POINTed campaign and using sockpuppets to avoid scrutiny. —Farix (t | c) 20:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Very similar to a user removing posts at random. Don't pass the buck guys, block and move on. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the issue being discussed. —Farix (t | c) 20:44, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I reverted MitchellPritchettLSD here and here, and immediately thought that he is trying to get WP:Autoconfirmed, which is one of the signs of WP:Sockpuppetry. I knew that he would get warned about his comma removals sooner than later. Flyer22 (talk) 03:00, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Editor forcing his edits through

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Editor 185.34.28.184 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is forcing his edits through on the Battletoads article. They use edit summaries, but don't seem to address the reasons for their edits being reverted in a meaningful way. Also, this is probably suited for another place, but for the life of me I can't remember where. Eik Corell (talk) 16:02, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The IP has done a bit of copyediting, removed some unsourced content and removed some redundant categories. What's the issue? IMHO the article needs far more work as it is woefully undersourced and has the whiff of a fan's point of view about it. As for another venue, the talk page is the best first step, followed by dispute resolution. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The filing party is advised that there is no evidence of problematic editing and they should take their concerns to the article/user talk page, as appropriate, per WP:DR.

Resolved

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Blocking threats

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

User IndianBIO is threatening to block me with overly libelous and exaggerated pretenses like vandalism, soapboxing, and advertising - which is clearly not what I'm doing. I tried resolving the dispute but he proceeded with blocking me. This is a violation of the civility code and a personal threat or attack in that manner. Evidences of such actions is evident in the messages the user left in my talk page. Hope you deal with this matter ASAP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Riot kiddo (talk • contribs) 16:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Links: IndianBio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --IJBall (talk) 17:07, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

User has been adding unsourced genres to a number of articles, was warned with level 4 for it which has autoblock warning in it. Came to my talk page with a high and mighty attitude of "trying" to help articles without adding sources. I mentioned clearly that this behavior continuation will lead to blocking since he/she has paid dust to numerous warnings left on the talk page by previous users also. End of story, started harassing my talk page. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 17:12, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Uh, this diff is not "OK", Riot kiddo – please see: WP:TPO. --IJBall (talk) 17:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

And this does not qualify as proper notification of taking IndianBio to ANI... I'm seeing enough evidence here that IndianBio could legitimately feel like you are harassing them. --IJBall (talk) 17:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Can we just boomerang this now? Clearly the user is just upset by being blocked for legitimate reasons and is trying to get some revenge.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 17:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Thing is, they've never been blocked. Though if they keep up with the attitude, that'll change very shortly. --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Health and Welfare ‖ 17:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

You're harassing IndianBIO. They warned you appropriately, and you will be blocked if you continue, though not by IndianBIO, who is not an administrator. Acroterion (talk) 17:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

This edit seems to show they aren't getting the message. --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Repel All Boarders ‖ 17:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Where did this notion that level 4 warnings are blackmail, threats, and harassment come from? I don't get it. Whatever happened to WP:AGF? It's like there is an increasing pattern of people assuming bad faith. or it could just be me. Weegeerunner (talk) 17:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocked for 48 hours, with a note on indef if this happens again. Acroterion (talk) 17:22, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wentworth (TV series)

Hi all! There is a problem over at the Wentworth (TV series) page where unsourced material is being added. The problem seems to be whether or not the show has been nominated for an award titled "Best International Show" by the TV Choice Awards. Now, this actually dates back quite a ways so I'll only show the last couple months. This info was added on 30 April 2015 with the only source being @Raintheone: stating "It was a nominee because I added it and I voted for it, do not remove stuff because the url redirects, find an archived version".

As we all know, her own personal experience cannot be counted as a source and, so, it was removed by @Poltair: on 1 May 2015 with these two messages being left on the talk page. The first of those messages actually includes two sources stating who the nominees were and Wentworth is not there. There are two sources confirming the show was not nominated!! That edit was then reverted again by Raintheone with her only justification being "that has ever right to be there as it is true." There's nothing but her word to say it is true but, apparently that's supposed to be good enough... even though there are sources saying it is not true. It was then removed by myself yesterday and re-added today, again by Raintheone, this time claiming "Link rot." This is not a case of link rot as her original source (found here) still works very well... it just doesn't state what she's claiming it states.

There are also these two conversations: this one titled "Accolades - TV Choice Awards 2014" and this one from Raintheone's talk page where she continues with her reasoning of "It's true because I said so."

Is this correct? Should this unsourced (and proven incorrect) info be allowed to remain on the page simply because one user says it's true? I'm thinking not and finding the user's reasoning to be absolutely baffling. Thank you in advance.Cebr1979 (talk) 18:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

As one of the parties mentioned in this matter, I originally removed the information because I could not find it substantiated anywhere, and could only find the sources, that I quoted on the talk page, which seemed to contradict the claim that the show was a nominee. My removal was later reverted with comments that disappointed me, so rather than bicker about it I left it there. The issue is really with process of the People's Choice award which starts with a long list of candidates that the public are invited to vote for. These are selected by the editors of People's Choice magazine and the initial public vote narrows these down to a shortlist of 'nominees', usually four in each category, from which the winner is selected. Now, Wentworth was indeed on the long list of candidates in 2014, as it is again in 2015, but it did not make it to the the shortlist of nominees in 2014. The point is whether being chosen by the editors of magazine to be included on a long list of candidates for the public to vote from, constitutes 'nominated' status, and therefore worthy of inclusion in a list of accolades on a show's wikipedia entry. My opinion is that it does not. Poltair (talk) 19:07, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

My opinion is the same. That's no different than being a pre-nominee at the Emmy's (which we do not list here).Cebr1979 (talk) 19:32, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

It was put forward on a list of nominations chosen for their own awards ceremony. Big potato, small potato.. it is still a potato. But I understand we all have different opinions on that matter. Thank you Poltair for acknowledging that what I added was correct and the show was nominated. In regards to this ANI, you can come here and paint me as the disruptive editor adding unsourced information. I know it was nominated and the link path changed to the current article, certain websites do so when information is updated for whatever reason. Those who know me on here know how much of my own money I have blown buying sources and old books to improve the project. If it was not true I would have not added it in the first place because all I have given my time to on here is removing flase information and adding true sourced content. I think I am an editor who you can assume good faith with. So yeah, as a community based project, take my word it was nominated and I will do my best to find a replacement source - even if I have to buy a back issue of the magazine online. I see that as a fair solution and we can all work together in peace. To add, Raintheone is male.Rain the 1 22:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This seems like a content dispute that didn't really need to be brought to ANI; in addition, it appears that a solution has already been put forth. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:28, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

It is not a content dispute. It's a matter of a user saying "her word" should be accepted and trusted just because (something she just said right here on this board). I will never merely "take a user's word" and no editor should.Cebr1979 (talk) 03:04, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Mjmm2013

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

With edits like this (1, 2, 3), this new account's only purpose is for vandalism.Cebr1979 (talk) 19:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Stuff like this really should go to WP:AIV probably... --IJBall (talk) 20:38, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry about that, will move!Cebr1979 (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No Gun Ri Massacre

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This may not be the correct place for this. It's such a convoluted mess I wonder if it's too much for something like WP:AC. I looked into this for a bit and I'm left with "it's complicated". I came to this through a RfC at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. As can be expected on a page about atrocities, things are controversial and the matter seems to boil down to a dispute between Cjhanley and WeldNeck.

Cjhanley seems to legitimately be a Pulitzer prize winner on the subject. This certainly indicates that he knows more about the topic than I do, but may also increase the importance of well cited balancing sources. You don't commit a significant portion of your life to reporting on a subject without forming an emotional attachment to it. As indicated by Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/No Gun Ri Massacre he is also fairly new to WP, and may need help understanding WP guidelines. His account seems to have been created solely to work on this article, which is understandable. Also, a good deal of his references seems to be his own work, which can be touchy, but may also be expected from a subject matter expert.

WeldNeck also appears to need some help understanding WP guidelines and, in all fairness, has probably done a bit of edit warring. However, he seems to have pinpointed the main detractors to Hanley. As I'm sure everyone can appreciate, controversial articles can benefit from dissent, so long as it does not wander into WP:UNDUE. It does appear that there is some controversy in the sources over what exactly happened. It's not clear if this is legitimate debate or denialism al la Armenian Genocide.

At the base of it, the sheer weight of how long this has gone on is crushing. Help would be greatly appreciated, especially from someone well familiar with the Korean War. I am trying to moderate a bit, but I seriously doubt that either side is going to respect my opinion if it disagrees with theirs. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 21:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, it appears that this has already been addressed here to no avail. Oh bother. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 21:22, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

This looks like a battleground issue between two editors that will probably require some admin or community intervention. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Should this ani be merged to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Cjhanley? ― Padenton|✉   21:37, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Logically, yes. But that thread above might benefit from a fresh start. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:18, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Looks like we can postpone this for now. We have at least marginal acceptance of an edit-by-edit review on the talk page. If whatever the outcome is results in an edit war by the other party then I think there will be a strong argument for sanctions. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 01:06, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

BLP violations by IP editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

99.155.19.95 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
174.251.2.196 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
174.238.225.146 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

IP is variously denouncing people as paedophiles, [255],[256] and when reverted a bit of petty vandalism. [257] appears to be IP hopping as well.

Requesting a block of the IP addresses and a revdel of the offending entries per WP:BLP. I came straight here as the IP editor is edit warring to impose their changes and IP hopping, so immediate action seems to be required. WCM_email 22:02, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocked the first two IPs, but not the third since it hasn't been used since May 9. Also revdel'd the offending edits in Delavan, Illinois and Rossville, Georgia. Looks like an AT&T DSL user with a Verizon Wireless account. KrakatoaKatie 00:02, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I also semi-protected both articles for 2 weeks, so unless another IP pops up, I think we are done here. Monty₈₄₅ 00:04, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Breem001

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Breem001 (talk · contribs) has been editing on and off since 2012. Whenever he was on, it was a burst of vandalism of various kind: false information, hoax articles, random edits with misleading edit summaries, even inserting the word "crappy" :-) I reviewed all his edits, all of them were reverted and many described as "vandalism" in edit summaries, but surpizingly not a single reverter bothered to post a warning. Nevertheless all his life is a clear case of WP:NOTHERE and IMO deserves an indef block without much talk: clearly this person knows what they do, and I would strongly suggest not to waste other wikipedians' time to keep an eye on him whether he pops out in next 6 months for a yet another ludic stint. Staszek Lem (talk) 00:49, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I know this is a pain, Staszek Lem, but reports like this go better if you pick out 3–6 diffs, and show us what you mean. Also, Breem001 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has only posted once in the last month, so Admins may consider this mostly  Stale. --IJBall (talk) 02:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked as Not Here; they can explain themselves in an unblock request.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 02:49, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An apparently invalid RfC that probably needs closing as null and void

See Talk:A Letter Concerning Toleration#RfC: Did Locke exclude Catholics from toleration in his Letter Concerning Toleration? (and also Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#A Letter Concerning Toleration which looks set to be closed as declined, since there has been no prior discussion elsewhere). In essence we have an RfC asking Wikipedia contributors to provide their own interpretation of a primary source - material written by John Locke published in 1689 - and decide content accordingly, rather than following the multiple scholarly sources currently provided for content, which seem unanimous in reaching a conclusion already covered in the article. As I have repeatedly tried to explain to the contributor in question, User:Thepointofit, both on the article talk page, and on his talk page, this is clearly contrary to WP:RS and WP:OR policy, and accordingly wouldn't be valid even in the unlikely circumstances that the RfC went his way. Since it seems that User:Thepointofit is going to argue his (non-policy-compliant) case until the cows come home, and since it seems pointless to continue with an RfC that cannot possibly have any effect on article content, I therefore ask that an uninvolved admin take a look at the RfC, and that if they concur with my suggestion that it is null and void, close it forthwith to avoid dragging this pointless discussion out any longer. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:37, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Close it down - Essentially I agree with AtG, but see my specific argument in the RfC - as long as one of the participants in unwilling to play by our rules, the RfC is a farce, and Thepointofit should be given the choice: follow our policies, or hit the road, voluntarily or by force. BMK (talk) 04:05, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I've closed the RfC based on both the information here and input from editors in it. PHANTOMTECH (talk) 05:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog

A user, Jytdog, has been involved in a multi-editor content dispute at the High fructose corn syrup page. The events (history page, talk page) started with Jytdog making dozens of edits to the page, with the apparent aim of restructuring it; this also involved major loss of content from the Health Effects section, and a merging of the 'Health effects of high fructose corn syrup' page into the High fructose corn syrup page. At some point Jytdog ran into spirited resistance from me and another editor, Bloodofox, repeatedly removed the 'disputed tag' from the page, calling it lame (which Bloodofox kept replacing) and eventually requested page protection, which is currently in place. He opened talkpage discussion by claiming 'all hell has broken loose' (apparently his OWNish hacking and rewriting the article was a gentle breeze through the meadows) Discussion ensued, which at first seemed civil. Soon, though, Jytdog announced to everybody the account I had created long ago but hadn't used for a while (and certainly not ever on the High fructose corn syrup page, or any page connected to it). This was an uncalled-for implication that I was hiding something, or edited anonymously for some ulterior motive. Jytdog also tried to archive this entire active discussion [258]. At the same time Jytdog's separate content argument (on the same talkpage) with Bloodox was proceeding apace, and Bloodox claimed that Jytdog had 'swept under the carpet' certain issued to do with the article's content. Jytdog claimed that was an accusation of 'bad faith', shortly before... accusing my IP range of being Bloodox's sockpuppet. He then opened the thread Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bloodofox, where another user, Kingofaces43 (who was on his side all along), had posted several messages in support of him. And then (as this was still ongoing) Jytdog proceeded to post two 'proposal for edit requests' on the article talk page:

'Proposal for edit request 1 of 2[edit] Does everyone agree to revert these three diffs to restore the summary sentence in the lead about current consensus on health effects, and restore the sentence about "However, the mercury was not methylmercury, the form of mercury that is of most concern to human health." to the body? (I anticipate that the IP/Nitrobutane/bloodofox will disagree but that editor is the only one arguing for that, which is now clear.) Please do support or oppose. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 04:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for edit request 2 of 2[edit] Does everyone agree to revert this dif to remove links to the various specific dicarbonyl compounds and to remove the editorializing editorial comment there? (I anticipate that the IP/Nitrobutane/bloodofox will disagree but that editor is the only one arguing for that, which is now clear.) Please do support or oppose. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 05:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
(the second is an incomplete description of what the revert would do - it would also restore content unsupported by the citation in front of it, which I pointed out in the note)

Then Kingofaces43 proceeded to post messages in support on both proposals.

The near-identical, manipulative ("Does everyone agree...") language, the accusations of sockpuppetry (“which is now clear”) when more than one person opposes him, the removal of the 'disputed' tag as 'lame' (indeed, the idea that anyone could dispute with him is 'lame'), the strongarming of the article's content all point to potentially major power issues going on with Jytdog, and this is causing significant disruption, when he is taking out on other editors. The actions of Kingofaces43 are moreover suggestive that it is Jytdog who is engaging in sockpuppetry. 85.211.108.65 (talk) 07:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Primary sources and sources that fail WP:MEDRS should be removed from a mature article. We should strive to use high-quality sources rather than use poorly sourced text to argue with reviews. QuackGuru (talk) 07:14, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

"Primary sources should be removed from a mature article" is not taken from WP guidelines and has nothing to do with this thread. Jytdog enjoys a loyal group who will support him and/or derail any attempt to examine his "strong arm" style of editing; from what I have witnessed, every ANI opened against him in the past year or so becomes an example of this phenomenon. KingofAces can easily be mistaken for a Jytdog sock since they seem to agree 100% (at least at the GMO articles), but is not, to my knowledge, the same person. petrarchan47คุก 08:50, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The real DUCK test would suggest that the OP is a sock, and an investigation is open. -Roxy the black and white dog™ (resonate) 09:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru

I don't want to hear about Wikipolicy from someone who has been blocked literally dozens of times, for weeks at a time, for tendentious/disruptive editing, harassing other users, edit-warring in someone's userspace sandbox...

and has posted here five minutes after I put the ANI template on Jytdog's userpage??

Your record in fact even shows you have a history of “canvassing via email and making misleading accusations”...

petrarchan: if what you say is true, Jytdog's history is one of continuous mass CANVASSING to intimidate the opposition with sheer numbers and, if there are several such ANIs against him, there will be many recurrent names and this is worthy of investigation (especially if characters with a history as egregious as QuackGuru are involved (see above))

85.211.108.65 (talk) 10:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

PS: Roxy the dog is also one of them it seems. On Roxy the dog's talkpage, Adjwilley has pointed out: "Continuous pointed remarks to/about other users and the repeated scornful generalizations", "pointed comments to other users", creation of a "toxic atmosphere" on the Acupuncture talkpage, the same on the Ayurveda talkpage, editwarring on the Acupuncture article... Acupuncture is the page QuackGuru keeps vandalizing, that's why he got so many bans.

Also on Roxy the dog's talkpage, Adjwilley mentioned QuackGuru as having 'battleground mentality', 'annoying style of communicating and OWNing articles'

Roxy the dog in turn calls her opponents 'hordes of advocates' and 'POV pushers' on the talkpage, and has a stark red infobox on the userpage, reading 'This user resists the POV pushing of lunatic charlatans.' And a block for 'personal attacks/harassment'... and rollback permission

I wonder if the slavish obedience of this group, who'll do his editwarring for him, and help keep his record 'clean', has anything to do with Jytdog gaining 'rollback' privileges... his brutalizing editing on the High fructose corn syrup page has included undoing the edit he doesn't like... and bulldozing the unrelated intermediate edits too, by different users

85.211.108.65 (talk) 11:25, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

What I say is easily evidenced (and whether you are socking or not has no bearing on these facts). A couple of examples:

• Bullying and intimidation as well as off-wiki communication was recently proven here * / *
• Working in collusion with KingofAces and off-wiki canvassing was suggested here

petrarchan47คุก 21:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• This posting appears to be the last gasp of a soon-to-be-blocked editor. The OP has engaged in fierce, personally-attacking editing in favor of FRINGEy health ideas for the past few weeks (namely that High fructose corn syrup is really, really bad for you). As of yesterday they appear to have added the use of sockpuppetry to their arsenal, in response to my showing up at the article. The OP kindly linked to the case which I will do again: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bloodofox.

the key diff in that case is this one, by "bloodofox" who wrote: "So, today I rewrote the section on the controversy regarding mercury contamination and mentioned the public controversy in the lead.... You can see this edit here: [259]." that diff is an edit by 85.211.108.65 that matches the description given by bloodofox (the dif is not a typo).

It is interesting that the OP/IP claims that bloodofox is someone else in their opening statement and just above. I guess they are all in on the SOCKing. Jytdog (talk) 11:54, 27 May 2015 (UTC) (striking, no longer see this as pointing to IP edit Jytdog (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2015 (UTC))

No idea if it's a sock, but your smoking gun is a misunderstanding. The diff they linked has three intermediate revisions by you, in which you revert some of their changes. In other words, the diff is meant to show your reversion. The IP edit (inadvertently?) included in the diff link is minor copyediting and clearly does not match Bloodofox's description of their edits. KateWishing (talk) 15:27, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

That is not correct. The dif starts with the IP's first rewrite of the body, skips over my three edits (which the IP reverted), and ends with the IP's rewrite of the lead. Not a single dif there under "bloodofox". It is bloodofox disclosing that they are editing as the ip. That is not ambiguous. I agree it would have been better had they started it one dif back and shown this, but the one they showed was good enough, and included own my edits and the IPs. Jytdog (talk) 16:52, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The diff contains four edits, three by you,[260][261][262] and one by the IP. It does not start with the IP rewriting the body (which never happened), and it does not skip over your edits. The changes shown are largely yours. Bloodofox rewrote the controversy section and modified the lead earlier using their own account. You omitted a key part of Bloodofox's comment above: "However, this rewrite, which relied on a secondary sourced (The Washington Post) was removed for a brief mention that entirely relies on Web MD. You can see this edit here: [diff]" They are linking to your edits, not theirs. KateWishing (talk) 17:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Two things. This is not SPI so there is no point us debating this here. Second thing - I will go ahead and respond to you. I believe the diff provided within that dif was to show 'their version. To do that perfectly, they should have started one diff back, as I linked to in my last post. To show what you are saying very clearly, they should not have included the dif by the IP and should have just shown diffs be me. (btw, mine existed before, in a much more clear version -- if their goal was to show mine they could have done that much more easily) I will also add, the IP/Nitrobutane/bloodofox has shown very little interest in actually communicating and reaching consensus; that is consistent across all their behaviors. DUCK in every reasonable way. Jytdog (talk) 19:11, 27 May 2015 (UTC) (strike ref to ambiguous dif Jytdog (talk) 00:11, 28 May 2015 (UTC))

I did not post this on SPI because I hoped you would correct your own error. The problem with your interpretation is that the diff does not show their version. Bloodofox's comment describes their changes as rewriting the controversy section to include a Washington Post source, and to "mention the public controversy in the lead." This is clearly in reference to these edits, made under their own account. In contrast, the diff in question removes both the Washington Post source and the mention of controversy in the lead. These are your changes, apart from minor copyediting by the IP. At no point has the IP rewritten the controversy section or added a mention of it to the lead. KateWishing (talk) 19:33, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The IP added content to the lead about mercury in this dif. Jytdog (talk) 19:57, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I didn't notice that, but Bloodofox's comment could not have been referring to an edit made several minutes later. The actual diff cited removes that bit from the lead. KateWishing (talk) 20:17, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I've looked at your analysis more, KateWishing and I agree. bloodofox was likely referring to my edit. Jytdog (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm sorry our only interactions so far have been disagreements. KateWishing (talk) 00:13, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

It is all in good faith and civil too. thanks for catching that! Jytdog (talk) 01:39, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@User:Jytdog If you are referring to the material here[263] you removed this indicating a MEDRS</> source is needed for this. However, there is no comment in the material you removed relating to medical issues - therefore your edit summary that it was removed because MEDRS is required is inaccurate, misleading to other editors - and indicative of strong-arm tactics.DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

in your drive to pile on, i believe you just violated your topic ban. Jytdog (talk) 22:27, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Please explain.DrChrissy ^(talk) 22:31, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Suspiciously talented new editor appears out of nowhere and attacks Jytdog; Petrarchan47 jumps on the bandwagon. What's new? bobrayner (talk) 23:42, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

You find the comments to be an "attack" on Jytdog? Aren't ANI's meant to gather evidence? You're proving my point, at any rate. petrarchan47คุก 03:07, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

proposal to warn 85.211.108.65 to comment on content, not contributor, and to lay off the rage

So here are the IP's last 14 contribs. Contribs with no diffs are not personal attacks. The IP is on a bit of a rage binge. Please warn the IP to comment on content, not contributor, and to lay off personal attacks. Thanks.

• 03:36, 28 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+286)‎ . . Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bloodofox ‎ (→‎Comments by other users) more invective
• 03:23, 28 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+2,632)‎ . . Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bloodofox ‎ (→‎Comments by other users) - more invective
• 12:39, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+784)‎ . . Talk:High fructose corn syrup ‎- more invective
• 11:28, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+8)‎ . . Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog: syntax)
• 11:25, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+1,550)‎ . . Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog) - more rage
• 10:29, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+1,204)‎ . . Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog) - more rage
• 07:10, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+88)‎ . . Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog: added sigbature)
• 07:09, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+253)‎ . . User:Jytdog ‎
• 06:59, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+33)‎ . . Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog: syntax)
• 06:57, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+276)‎ . . Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bloodofox ‎ (→‎Comments by other users) - sarcasm
• 06:47, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+4,013)‎ . . Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ‎ (→‎Strong-arm tactics by Jytdog: new section) - invective
• 04:05, 27 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+4,195)‎ . . Talk:High fructose corn syrup ‎ - invective
• 23:09, 26 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+1,591)‎ . . Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) ‎ (→‎A way to prevent revertwars from erupting)
• 23:04, 26 May 2015 (diff | hist) . . (+607)‎ . . Talk:High fructose corn syrup ‎- invective

Instead of using the page protection at the article to discuss changes, which is what it is for, the IP is just raising cain, and bloodofox is also not discussing anything on the article Talk page. It doesn't appear that they intend to work out the content issues while the article is locked down. Jytdog (talk) 04:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Can;t believe Jytdog now accuses me and bloodofox of refusal to discuss, after him being the one who tried to 'accidentally' archive the talk page while active discussion was going on, then got touchy and broke off the exchange ('We are done') as soon as the talk got hot for him and his misconducts were recounted:

I will say this one more time - stop commenting on contributors ("sweeping under the carpet" is an accusation of bad faith editing). The next time you do this, I will simply stop responding to you and we will need to work through some more formal process that will slow things down. OK, would you please provide here the content you would want to see, and the sourcing for it? thanks. Jytdog (talk) 01:13, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I've provided it above, thanks. And given your goofy antics here—at this point everything from removing NPOV tags because they're "lame" during active disputes to "accidentally" archiving active talk page threads that I've commented on earlier in the day—maybe it's best that you just do that. Given that you're eager to resort to tactics like that, maybe you should take a break for a while. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:16, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

bloodofox, I just realized that based on what you wrote above, and especially on this dif, where you link to this dif by 85.211.108.65, it appears that you have been editing here under a username and an as an IP. I actually thought you were several people. This is a clear violation WP:SOCK. You are the only person supporting the position you have been taking here. That changes everything. Jytdog (talk) 03:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC) (striking interpretation of dif. appears that "this edit" was meant to point to my dif. SOCK concerns remain Jytdog (talk) 00:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC))

Couldn't help noticing this... 'accusation of bad faith editing' indeed... lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.211.108.65 (talk • contribs) 04:05, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

We are done. I did assume that the IP/Nitrobutane and you were different people. That was AGF. Jytdog (talk) 04:15, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Then he started two biased-worded polls that pretended the flaky accusations of socking were already proven:

'Proposal for edit request 1 of 2[edit] Does everyone agree to revert these three diffs to restore the summary sentence in the lead about current consensus on health effects, and restore the sentence about "However, the mercury was not methylmercury, the form of mercury that is of most concern to human health." to the body? (I anticipate that the IP/Nitrobutane/bloodofox will disagree but that editor is the only one arguing for that, which is now clear.) Please do support or oppose. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 04:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for edit request 2 of 2[edit] Does everyone agree to revert this dif to remove links to the various specific dicarbonyl compounds and to remove the editorializing editorial comment there? (I anticipate that the IP/Nitrobutane/bloodofox will disagree but that editor is the only one arguing for that, which is now clear.) Please do support or oppose. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 05:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

- the second of which misled the reader about what the [diff] would actually do - It would restore content that was clearly misrepresenting its source, and which I left the invisible comment about. Anyone who follows the link I gave in that comment would see that. And immediately Kingofaces43,who was in close contact with Jytdog from the start and colluded with him on this issue specifically, supported Jytdog on both polls. Working in collusion with KingofAces and off-wiki canvassing was previously suggested here, and further canvassing concerns have been raised on Kingofaces43's talk.
Last and worst, Jytdog to begin with was canvassed by Sciencewatcher, the user I was disagreeing with over the HFCS article before Jytdog showed up.

and now Jytdog, after claiming on the WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Bloodofox that he is "a science-based editor who follows policy and guidelines" and when I pointed out he has a record of misdeeds (eg his bullying against petrarchan47DrChrissy - including hounding her out of this very thread instead of responding to her comment!), has called it rage. And demanded that his conduct not be discussed at all, despite ANI is the place for discussing conduct, and examine evidence.(He also suggested a Calorie Control Council-funded study to us on talk - CCC are an industry interest group who call HFCS/fructose 'reduced-calorie and claim health benefits for it - 'science' indeed) Demanding sanctions for daring to mention his misconduct, is very like his falsely accusing Bloodofox of SOCK when he pointed out Jytdog's misdeeds. Meaning, he'll turn on anybody who points out his bullying. Posting a piece of someone's contribs history, with a load of links in it and strong words in red alongside, BUT not quoting any of the relevant passages (as my posts were statements of fact from his history of harassment, and might indict him); hoping to create an impression to all who read it, and nobody will bother to follow the links. When he could have just posted the diffs, and used the space saved to give actual quotes. Diffs would show me saying he is guilty of past bullying and harassment, +offwiki canvassing - as indeed he is. [[264]], [[265]] And collusion, specifically with Kingofaces: [[266]]. Me pointing out the way he acts towards other editors is apparently a “fierce personal attack”. A recent collection of his odium was here, at ANI, regarding his bullying against DrChrissy - including telling her to 'get out more', effing and blinding on her talkpage, saying her edits were 'slimey varmint behaviour'... it [goes on].
His words here are all “It is all in good faith and civil too. thanks for catching that!”; pretending to not have noticed the obvious (that there's zero evidence of socking in the diffs). By Hanlon's razor this should be believed, but his history shows him repeatedly claiming to not notice what he's doing, when it is more than obvious. His actions are at odds with his words: canvassing QuackGuru (who posted here five minutes after I put the ANI notice on Jytdog's user page) and Roxy the dog for this thread, and canvassing Kingofaces47 for the HFCS article and talkpage (see above). petrarchan47 put me onto the thought that there might be a group of people weighing in to anything he does, and presto...
(Jytdog's claims that I posted 'invective' against him (though I never invaded his talk nor used expletives as h'es been known to) are ever more hypocritical through him replying to my accusations on Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Bloodofox:
“invective harms no one but the person who posts it”
Bobrayner: Just what do you mean by 'suspiciously talented', 'out of nowhere', and 'jumps on the bandwagon'? What kind of an implication is that? If you have something like that to say, then say it, instead of sinuous insinuations.

And considering Jytdog's record of personal attacks on petrarchan47's talkpage, then pretending he didn't notice being warned off thrice, it's understandable petrarchan should bring up those incidents from his record. [Edit: shorten words, struck mishtaek, +new info] 85.211.108.65 (talk) 01:34, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Casting aspersions as this user has done above about me is exactly why I'm supportive of a warning here. Claiming I was "colluding" when I had already been independently alerted at Wikiproject Med here and talking to Jytdog after this user's behavior issues were apparent seems to be this user's attempt to lash out at other users for opposing their edits and alerting them to problematic behavior. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:17, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support warning. I'd prefer to wait for the sock-puppet posting to conclude, but I think a warning is merited no matter. Obviously involved in this one, but the ferocity in which this IP has been lashing out at other editors who tried to approach this editor civilly has been extremely disruptive. A lot of pot calling the kettle black behavior after their own initial actions were called out that only got worse as others tried to get them to stop. Anyone reading the article history and talk page (or even above) should be able to gleam the problem with this behavior pretty quickly. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:16, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Just to note what started this, we had 8 reverts by the IP in less than 24 hours, 8 additional ones by Bloodofox, and 12 total reverts if we consider the two the same person. This editor is coming in hard and fast while breaking a lot of talk page guidelines while edit warring no matter the outcome, so something should be done to alleviate their behavior issues since it doesn't look like they're seeing the problem. Kingofaces43 (talk) 01:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

See my post above for evidence of Jytdog and Kingofaces arranging to work in concert. Also, see [history of HFCS article] for evidence of dozens of edits by Jytdog, tearing up the article and rearranging it his way, deleting content - even entire sections, deleting NPOV tags in the middle of active discussion, breaking the entire discussion by 'accidentally' archiving the talkpage... After this, Kingofaces has the gall to say I came in 'hard and fast' etc etc..? 85.211.108.65 (talk) 01:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

If you really want more than a warning from here, feel free to keep making personal attacks by misrepresenting my statements as you've been doing here. The behavior under scrutiny in this section is yours, so I highly suggest you look at the edits you've made that have been pointed out. I still doesn't look like you're seeing how problematic your behavior is and the battleground behavior you're engaging in, so I'm disengaging from here for now and waiting for the sockpuppet investigation to wrap up first. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:44, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Why are we proposing to warn? Is there some belief that the user in question is unaware of Wikipedia policy? If you believe they are aware, warn them. You don't need permission. If you believe they are already aware of the policy, what the heck are we warning them for? Is it like "double secret probation"? Seriously. If someone is aware of policy, they don't need a warning. If they continue to violate policies they are aware of, they need blocks. If they are not continuing those violations, then they don't need anything. Since said user is participating in this discussion they are aware of the policy. There's no need to "propose" to make them aware. They are. Unless you want to propose a block or a ban, this is a phenomenal waste of time and server space. --Jayron32 02:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Jayron32 - so close it, already then, or take action. i agree this is a waste of time. I think this raging behavior is blockable, but that is not my call. Jytdog (talk) 04:05, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

A lot of people at ANI seem to not want to impose bans if a warning hasn't been given an "official" warning by the closing ANI case first. That's been the practice since I came here a few years ago at least. May not be for the best, but that seems to be the environment. If someone not involved wants to propose a block instead, I'd prefer that, but I'd have enough drama from this user already to avoid this ANI until the SPI is concluded. Kingofaces43 (talk) 02:44, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Without commenting on this case itself, but I think it is rather worrying to see Jytdog so often at AN/I. And with roughly the same type of cases. The Banner talk 22:12, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Editor removed all but a small part of an article on Scottish village, stating that WP policy is that all unreferenced claims should always be removed

User:Mcmatter has removed all but a small part of the article on Borve, Lewis. I tried to discuss with him on his talk page, but I hit a brick wall when he asserted that Wikipedia's policy was that "if it isn't referenced it can be and should be removed". I questioned that sweeping assertion and he could not justify it, preferring to collapse the discussion from his talk page saying he is "done with" the conversation. The discussion is in the history here.

Mcmatter originally became involved with the article to support the action of editor MacRusgail, a user who has been warned for repeated incidents of bad behaviour and threatened with a block. MacRusgail's action had been to revert an edit I had made on the grounds that I had removed two references, references which in my view were completely unnecessary - one being to a road users' website, included as a source for the assertion that the main road through the village is called the A857, information that is easily verifiable and that nobody had challenged. Compulsively sourcing such information makes for a feel that is sophomoric.

It is interesting that Mcmatter and MacRusgail, who have such similar usernames, should share such an extremist view of references and be applying it to the same article at the same time.

For the record, in my editing I removed a few pieces of non-notable information but did not, as far as I can recall, add any new information. In fact I shortened the article considerably, but this was mainly due to improving the style. So I am not someone who has kept adding information needlessly. But I do think that in its form before the involvement of Mcmatter and MacRusgail it was a good article undeserving of being slashed back to the quick, and I do not believe that Wikipedia has a policy that unreferenced claims should always be removed, which is the point on which the discussion with Mcmatter turned.Lordelephapia (talk) 07:41, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

There is no policy that unreferenced material must be or even should be removed. In fact WP:PRESERVE says otherwise. I do think that in this case User:Mcmatter is engaging in destructive tactics that are a form of almost "control bullying" which is poor etiquette for such an inoffensive article. Sometimes editors make tiresome demands for citations for things that could easily be found, or which are so uncontested that the demand itself can seem like a form of intimidation. Removing a citation, however, was not helpful. I presume that much of the other content could be cited to local history literature. Paul B (talk) 10:57, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Actually Mcmatter's correct, Wikipedia cannot be used to post anything that isn't reliably sourced, no matter who thinks it's true. So yeah, McMatter's correct KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

No. Read WP:UNSOURCED. The guideline is quite nuanced as does not support such blitzing behaviour. There is no such rule. Huge swathes of content on Wikipedia is unreferenced. Content can be challenged and can be removed, but there is no rule that says uncited content "cannot" exist or that it should be removed, let alone must be removed. Show me where it is. Paul B (talk) 11:31, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Paul B, not every statement in an article needs to be referenced. It's preferable that sources are provided but a statement can exist, unreferenced, until another editor questions whether it is verified and challenges it. If every sentence that didn't have a citation was removed from en-Wikipedia, I'm guessing Wikipedia content would shrink by 90%. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:45, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

This is essentially a content dispute, and thus not appropriate for this page. I notice that none of you has so much as raised this on the article talk page, which is the appropriate venue for this discussion. RolandR (talk) 11:27, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree with the removal of all content, but if it's being re-added, then WP:BURDEN applies - "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material". Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 11:31, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of content, per WP:VERIFY and WP:OR- Wikipedia clearly states a requirement for reliable sources. It should definitely not be readded without reliable sources. Also, this seems like a content dispute, why isn't it at the talkpage? Joseph2302 (talk) 11:36, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The relevant guidelines do not support such blitzing destruction of unchallenged content. See WP:UNSOURCED. Paul B (talk) 11:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Paul Barlow you've repeated yourself about three times with the same sentance, go back and read WP:UNSOURCED, it says, on the very first line " All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." it goes on to say Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source . So yes, WP:UNSOURCED definetly supports removal of unsourced items, McMatter is still right. Keep calm and add reliable sources. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:25, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I haven't repeated the "same sentence" even once. I have referred to the same guideline to two different editors (not "about three times"). And no, you didn't read it very well. It does not support blanket removal of content. It advises asking for or looking for sources, and tagging, not blanking. I repeat what I said befotre to you. The guideline states that "Content can be challenged and can be removed, but there is no rule that says uncited content "cannot" exist or that it should be removed, let alone must be removed". I suspect you know this, and are perfectly well aware that I read every word of the passages in question. Paul B (talk) 00:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I have readded some content to the article, with sources, and I see Voceditenore has taken up the baton too. In the meantime, I would suggest Mcmatter calm down and look for sources himself (perhaps the National Archives of Scotland has something?) before he tries to take Port Carlisle Junction, Scenic Daylight, Tracking (particle physics), Winter vacation and Writing in Ancient Egypt to AfD. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:14, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

So now admins are attacking users or placing words in their mouths? I had no intention of taking this article to AfD, never said or implied I was doing any such thing. The content which I challenged and removed was the history on a tiny village in Scotland, all the information is in the history for easy retrieval for anyone with the knowledge or access to source the information. I have done nothing which is outside policy. I have included the discussion from my talkpage for all to review.- McMatter ^(talk)/_(contrib) 12:33, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I haven't used any admin tools in this discussion, so I don't understand how that's relevant. My point is that you seem to keen to delete content and point fingers at everyone else to fix it, rather than doing the work yourself. Is that really what's best for the enyclopedia? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:38, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Ritchie333 is right. If both McMatter and Lordelephapia had worked togther to provide proper references (always a good thing), instead of edit warring (always a bad thing), festooning the article with banners (rarely an optimal thing), and pointlessly arguing here (never an optimal thing), the encyclopedia would have been made better and in a much shorter time. Geesh! This whole farrago rather reminds me of the (satirical) tag at the top of User talk:Sitush. Voceditenore (talk) 13:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

True, but Lordelephapia at least has the excuse the he's a very inexperienced new editor. Paul B (talk) 13:16, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

That's true too, Paul. Not a very fab introduction to Wikipedia :( and all the more reason why the deleters/festooners should have helped out a bit there. Voceditenore (talk) 13:27, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I reverted MacRusgail's edit because his only stated reason for reverting my extensive and mainly stylistic revision, that I spent a lot of time over (not in finding sources, but in crafting), was that I had removed references for two tiny pieces of information, one of them being for the official number of the main road through the village. He gave his reason in the summary to his edit. Had he just added the references back in for those bits, I probably wouldn't have done anything. Mcmatter referred to WP policy so I tried to engage him on his talk page (and ironically, as well as asking him what statements he thought required references the other thing I asked him was to point me to a source for his understanding of WP policy), but I didn't revert his edit, even though I felt like doing so, restoring what he had deleted and asking him in the summary what exactly he challenged the verifiability of. So he is right to say below that no edit war has taken place. But he then says that if he had "caught" the material, and so on, not realising that if he applied that way of thinking more widely he'd delete 90% of Wikipedia, as Liz says above. I intend my main contribution to Wikipedia in the near future to be stylistic revision, so I may just wait for what the Borve article looks like in a few weeks time and then review it for style, leaving all references be.Lordelephapia (talk) 17:37, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Ritchie333 second comment is fair, his first is not, It doesn't matter if you use the tools or not, as this is an admin board an admin should be ever so caution on their words. No edit war has taken place, this only leads me to believe you are only reading the headlines and not the story. I stand by my edit, if I had caught this material when it was first entered into the article nothing would have happened and no one would have cared, but because it was caught a year later and a big red number shows up, some begin to scream deletionist and BAD BAD!. If I would have left the tags they would have sat there for years because again no one cared. User such as I do care and help the encyclopedia by holding it to the higher standard, if everything is left then we would be Wordpress. As this has all happened within the last 24 hours I do think everyone should probably take a step back and look at everything as I can see some people are only reading what they want to and is very quickly going to turn into another witch hunt by the mob.- McMatter ^(talk)/_(contrib) 14:08, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Mcmatter, the only thing I think was wrong is that you didn't show evidence you had searched for sources. If you had said, "look, I have raked through Google Books, and all my archive subscriptions and I can't find any evidence the church opened in 1895, aside from a blog saying it opened in 1896. Until a definite source comes forward, out it goes - we can't put hearsay and rumour on the encyclopaedia" then I wouldn't have had a problem. This and this shows I am no stranger to removing large amounts of content from articles myself. But it has to be done with care and showing good faith attempts at improvement first - hence the rather tongue in cheek reference to Port Carlisle Junction which has lain as a forgotten unsourced stub (much like its real life counterpart) for about 9 years .... at least until this afternoon. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:38, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Talk page discussion

Borve - tags Hi, You have added tags to the article on Borve, Lewis. One states that "This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." Please can you identify which statements in the article require references in your opinion. The only two references that the article contained before my revision were to a road users' site (to verify what number road the village is on) and a Scottish places site (to verify what larger administrative area it is part of). Those references seem completely unnecessary because the information is not seriously open to challenge and in the event that someone does read the article and think "Hey, you're saying the village is on the A857 - well that's an assertion I challenge!", they can easily go and verify it elsewhere, just as if someone challenges the assertion that London is located in England. The second states that "This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research should be removed." Please can you decide whether you think it does or does not contain original research and if you decide you think it does, please can you identify which claims you think should be either verified or removed. Thanks! Lordelephapia (talk) 10:46, 26 May 2015 (UTC) @Lordelephapia:, thank you for the message I have cleared up most of the problems with the article, I have removed almost everything which was not supported by a reference. If you can find reliable sources to support the claims please feel free to reinstate them using proper citation methods. Removing references from an article is normally not a good thing, by removing them you remove the ability for anyone to verify anything in the article, and Wikipedia policy is that if it isn't referenced it can be and should be removed. Next time you are looking a removing any reference ask yourself the following questions; Is the reference supporting anything in the article? If I remove this reference am I making it more difficult for someone not from the area to verify information? Is there already another reference supporting the same claim? Hopefully these questions will help when deciding if you should remove references in an article.For the most part references should not be removed, even if they are deadlinks.- McMatter (talk)/(contrib) 11:55, 26 May 2015 (UTC) It's as if you didn't read what you're replying to properly. Removing almost everything that's not supported by a reference is completely uncalled for, and you have not argued the contrary. Wikipedia policy is not "that if it isn't referenced it can be and should be removed".Lordelephapia (talk) 12:53, 26 May 2015 (UTC) What is the source for your claim that Wikipedia policy is "that if it isn't referenced it can be and should be removed". Have you got a reference?Lordelephapia (talk) 18:22, 26 May 2015 (UTC) This is simple take a read through Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research both basically state all, but the most obvious, claims require references or inline citations, the entire content I removed from the page had nothing for verification of the information, the onus is now on you or who ever wants to add information back to Prove it.- McMatter (talk)/(contrib) 18:39, 26 May 2015 (UTC) So you are rowing back and saying that rather than "if it isn't referenced it (...) should be removed", which is what you first said, the policy is in fact that that applies only when claims are not among "the most obvious". You also say that it's "simple". And you say that the policies on original research and verification "basically" (a clear case of a weasel word) support your understanding of the policy on the requirement for references. Well I claim there is no Wikipedia policy that says, "basically" or otherwise, that all claims, or all claims other than the most obvious, must be referenced. If there is such a policy, it would patently obviously be published and I ask you again to post a specific link to it if you think it exists, not a link to long policy articles that you think "basically" communicate that policy or have it as their gist. Those documents are full of summary sentences and you should be able to point to a sentence or paragraph to back up your assertion if you maintain its accuracy. Using words such as "simple", "obviously" and "basically", even were they to be used in grammatically correct sentences, cannot obscure the fact that having been asked to cite a source for your very specific claim about Wikipedia's policy you have not yet done so. Please consider the possibility that your understanding of it is mistaken. If you wish to challenge some of the statements that were made in this article before you deleted most of it, please do so. Millions of articles at this website contain unreferenced assertions. That's easily verifiable by choosing one at random linked from the main page.Lordelephapia (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2015 (UTC) I have already challenged the content in the article by removing the unreferenced material, you are free to reinstate if can provide reliable sources for them. I am done arguing with you at this point. If you wish you can take this to Dispute resolution or if you think I have violated any policies you may take it to Wikipedia:AN/I.- McMatter (talk)/(contrib) 01:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• The failure to understand that WP:V says content must verifiable -- not that all content must actually be verified by an explicitly cited source -- and the consequent idea that WP:BURDEN is carte blanche for removal of anything unsourced, without consideration of the circumstances, is a beautiful example of rigid and unsubtle interpretation of policy and guidelines to the detriment of the project. Except in special circumstances such as BLP (and even there a modified version of what I'm about to say still applies) the test for removal is that the person doing the removal genuinely believes that no source exists -- the test is not that no source has actually been produced. Here's what BURDEN says:

When tagging or removing material for lacking an inline citation, please state your concern that there may not be a published reliable source for the content, and therefore it may not be verifiable.

A footnote confirms this:

...it is advisable to communicate clearly that you have a considered reason to believe that the material in question cannot be verified.

So let's say a trustworthy editor (i.e. any editor who hasn't given us reason to believe he or she isn't trustworthy) says, on the talk page, "My notes show that while researching this article, one of the several books of Smallville history I used said that Smith's Smithy Road was named for a smithy, owned by John Smith, that used to be there. Unfortunately I spilled coffee on the notes and can't read which source this came from, and my wife returned everything to the library (which is in a distant city) before I was able recover that information." In this case, there's no reason the Smith's Smithy Road factoid can't remain in the article for years -- indefinitely -- without an explicit cite, though of course with a to encourage someone to chase one down.

As a practical matter, if a statement is genuinely disputed and no source can be produced (in a reasonable time -- not necessarily immediately!) then that statement will have to go. But inherent in that narrative is that there are editors who truly question whether any source exists. That's completely different from people who just run around removing, on sight, perfectly harmless and likely verifiable statements that haven't been verified yet. These people trumpet BURDEN without understanding it, and imagine themselves to be helping the project. They're not. (And such misapplication of BURDEN is often used as a form of harassment of other editors and their favorite articles or topics.) EEng (talk) 16:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Wikihounding from User:WordSeventeen

As if all this wasn't enough, after yet another incident where WordSeventeen raised another groundless SPI against Joseph2302 (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181), I have blocked them for 1 month. Collapsing this section in the name of sanity. Black Kite (talk) 13:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This user seems to be hounding me, disagreeing with me and accusing me of uncivility without giving any reasons. It started when I put Cody Sipe and Daniel M. Ritchie up for deletion (initially as CSD, then AfD after they contested it)- I genuinely believed neither of these articles were good enough for Wikipedia, and their AfDs appear to agree with me, but User:WordSeventeen seems to think it's just because they're a paid editor. I tried to discuss the issue at User talk:WordSeventeen, but they just removed my comments- there are whole sections of the pages which are unsourced and therefore violations of WP:BLP, however they implied I was trying to manipulate the Afd discussions by removing them. They then gave the article creator a barnstar (which is okay), with an inappropriate message about me, see here, which clearly implies I'm bigoted, and they know better as a more experienced editor. Now, they've started getting involved at James Rhodes (pianist), the talkpage and it's BLP notice, conveniently enough just after I started getting involved there. They've broken 3RR by reverting 5 times, claiming it to be BLP violations, despite the fact it's well-sourced, and most other users at these locations think it isn't, and straight after I pointed it out, they claimed I was being uncivil here. When I asked for a clearer explanation here, they just templated me again here. They've also incorrectly tagged an article I created for a merger which would never succeed in a million years, tagging List of cricketers who have taken five wickets on ODI debut to be merged with List of Test cricketers who have taken two five-wicket hauls on debut, but not tagging the other article or starting a discussion. I asked at their talkpage for an explanation, but none has been given. Cannot see a rationale for this, other than to annoy me. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Also, before this user claims "I'm never civil", I'd like to point out that on my talkpage, @FreeRangeFrog: has thanked me for my COI work- the exact thing that started this hounding- and @CryOCed: has also commended my civility. Only @WordSeventeen: seems to think I'm uncivil, every other Wikipedia user seems to think I'm fine and civil. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:15, 27 May 2015 (UTC) I've actually noticed WordSeventeen's uncivil actions ever since I got tangled with an old user (who is now retired to avoid a indefinite block). WordSeventeen would constantly commend the user on, to say blatantly, bad articles and criticize those who wanted to delete it. My point is this is a long-term case beyond this AN/I and WordSeventeen needs a block which will hopefully teach them that their actions do not work toward collaboration.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 12:17, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Which editor, TheGracefulSlick? Spumuq (talq) 14:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC) I did not want to out anyone, Spumuq, but the user was CrazyAces489. There was talk on Bishonen's talk page to indefinitely block him, but CrazyAces "retired", most likely to avoid the block.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:48, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Request for a WP:BOOMERANG for User:Joseph2302 Comment That last posting by the OP looks to be a preemptory barnstar defense to allow him to WP:CANVAS another editor to this baseless and false ani report posted by the OP. I would ask any administrator to consider a WP:BOOMERANG. The OP says all this began at Cody Sipe. Well this is what occurred at Cody Sipe. See here: [267] Joseph2302 followed me there Joseph2302 — 21:38, May 23, 2015 (diff | hist) Cody Sipe (Requesting speedy deletion (CSD G11). When I declined the speedy Joseph2302 reverted the declination of the speedy and put the article up for a SECOND speedy. "Joseph2302 — 23:16, May 23, 2015 (diff | hist) Cody Sipe (Reverted 1 edit by WordSeventeen (talk): That isn't why I put it for speedy." One minute later: "Joseph2302 — 23:17, May 23, 2015 (diff | hist) Cody Sipe (Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cody Sipe." One minute later he/she proceeded to gut the article after he had set it up for AFD: "Joseph2302 — 23:25, May 23, 2015 (diff | hist) Cody Sipe (/* Research */WP:VERIFY Joseph2302 — 23:19, May 23, 2015 (diff | hist) Cody Sipe (/* Education *WP:VERIFY) Joseph2302 — 23:18, May 23, 2015 (diff | hist) Cody Sipe (/* Post-graduate careerWP:VERIFY) Joseph2302 — 23:18, May 23, 2015 (diff | hist) Cody Sipe (/* Early careerWP:VERIFY)" I objected to his behaviour here: [268] 33 minutes later: "Joseph2302 — 23:58, May 23, 2015 (diff | hist) Cody Sipe (Reverted to revision 663728748 by Joseph2302 (talk): Per discussion on User talk:WordSeventeen, I have been asked to self-revert." WP:BOOMERANG Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 12:30, 27 May 2015 (UTC) I didn't follow you to Cody Sipe, I was patrolling new editor contributions and found a paid editor declaration, so went to look at their articles- this is my standard first response to someone declaring a COI/paid editor status. Also, looking at the AfD discussion, I'd say my decision to want to delete is correct. Also, I did provide them with advice at their talkpage, my standard, successful advice for new editors- I recommend they use AfC, because evidence shows this is the best way for new and COI editors to write articles. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:02, 27 May 2015 (UTC) No boomerang here. Joseph2302 was quite correct to remove the swathes of unsourced content from the article, and if it's still there I'll remove it myself when I've finished here. You're lucky not to have been blocked for your antics on the James Rhodes article, and I suggest that if that happens again, such will be the inevitable result. Black Kite (talk) 13:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC) (EC)From what I can tell Wordseventeen altered the title of this section as well to remove their own name. Which is less than optimum. I also agree with your assessment of the Rhodes article Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:08, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Comment User:WordSeventeen just changed the heading of this topic, I've reverted it. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:06, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Note - WordSeventeen removed my comment discussing his long-term uncivil actions, this, as I said, is not an isolated event.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 13:11, 27 May 2015 (UTC) I was trying to figure this confusing thread out: created by Joseph2302 in this dif comment by TheGracefulslick here bizarre edit by WordSeventeen here copying most of a talk page reverted here; edit warred (!) back in by WordSeventeen here; reverted again by a third editor here; WordSeventeen opened a new thread asking for boomerang, which was mostly copied from original thread, but didn't include The GracefulSlick's comment WordSeventeen deleted the original thread open by Joseph against WordSeventeen (!) here Joseph added back the original title here some IP further modified the title here in this dif I restored the title, put Word17's header on his/her comment alone, and restored TheGracefulSlick's comments. That is an incredibly disruptive set of edits by WordSeventeen at an ANI thread. That is digging your own hole. Jytdog (talk) 13:44, 27 May 2015 (UTC) I also want to add that Drmies warned Word17 against hounding just a month ago, here. Jytdog (talk) 13:45, 27 May 2015 (UTC) What are these civility and AGF warnings for, [269] [270], Joseph2302 only made one edit on that page, the edit summary is «Take it to the talkpage.», it is not uncivil or assuming bad faith, why does this deserve two warnings from WordSeventeen? Spumuq (talq) 14:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC) The warnings were apparently for this post: [271], although I had to ask twice to get a proper answer about it. Also requesting unprotection seemed fair, since protection was stopping one of the IPs from editing with the talkpage/noticeboard consensus, whilst allowing them to edit against the talkpage/noticeboard consensus. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC) WordSeventeen asked an administrator to block Joseph2302 and 131.191.80.213, [272], because «I am getting personally attacked by the IP editor, as well as Joseph2302 multiple times in the last few hours», where are these personal attacks? I find editors disagreeing with WordSeventeen about an article but I can't find personal attacks. If there are no personal attacks, then WordSeventeen is trying to deceive an administrator, to block editors who were repairing WordSeventeen's damage to the article? Spumuq (talq) 14:23, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Some more diffs about Wikihounding: Durango Mountain Resort: [273] (I deleted the content after creating a redirect as requested at WP:AFC/R). Vic Lindal: Accepted article here, despite the fact it was no different from when I'd commented about it here. There was a note about the article on my talkpage at the time. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:46, 27 May 2015 (UTC) On the topic of the AN/I edits, I didn't warn after my revert here as from the edit summary I assumed it was a mistake, (meant to thank instead of use twinkle.) Look at the diffs all together though I'm less inclined to see it as a simple mistake. — Strongjam (talk) 14:45, 27 May 2015 (UTC) question - there seems to the beginnings of a consensus that WordSeventeen is at least going through a period of disruptive editing that includes hounding, edit warring, misrepresenting others' edits. Subjects include BLPs but other articles as well. What is the proposed action here? Jytdog (talk) 15:19, 27 May 2015 (UTC) So it appears like I'm not the only person affected by WordSeventeen's actions. There appears to be a case of repeated harassment of other users, so I feel like a block is in order. Timewise I don't really know, like 2 weeks-1 month? With a warning that if they do it again, it'll be significantly longer. Obviously open to other users suggesting things. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Two months is more than reasonable, that is about as long as we can track that WordSeventeen has been uncivil and uncollaborative. I support the block of that length, and longer ones if necessary.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:52, 27 May 2015 (UTC) Several editors have asked to see the info and duscussions about the WP:NPA violations by Joseph 2302 over the past 24 hours or so. This discussion was here: [274] Joseph2302 removed only part of the discussion from his talk page as he can. "Hello, I'm WordSeventeen. I noticed that you made a comment on the page James Rhodes (pianist) that didn't seem very civil, so it has been removed. Wikipedia needs people like you and me to collaborate, so it's one of our core principles to interact with one another in a polite and respectful manner. If you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. James Rhodes (pianist) and your related postings at relevant boards WordSeventeen (talk) 5:36 am, Today (UTC5) @WordSeventeen: Exactly what was the uncivil comment? Just because I disagree with you doesn't make you right, and the fact is that you have violated WP:3RR, and the talkpage and BLPN both support the content being there. Also, don't template the regulars. This feels like harassment to me, since it is improperly justified. Joseph2302 (talk) 5:39 am, Today (UTC5) "Unprotection: There is no BLP violation, as it is covered in reliable sources. This semi-protection appears to be an attempt to quash the talkapge consensus to include it, by preventing the IP user from editing. Joseph2302 (talk) 4:40 am, Today (UTC5) See here: [3] This posting is both uncivil and a personal attack on a specific editor suggesting that someone was attempting to "squash" talkpage consensus. The posting is also in violation of WP:AGF. An editor who has only been on wikipedia for five months is hardly a regular. If you continue all of your disruptive posts and behaviours I will be presenting this disruption that you have caused at WP:ANI. So please do read up on WP:NPA, WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, and WP:DISRUPTION. Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 6:00 am, Today (UTC5) Joseph2302 (talk) 5:45 am, Today (UTC5)" the discussion at #3 is as follows" [275] "Unprotection: There is no BLP violation, as it is covered in reliable sources. This semi-protection appears to be an attempt to quash the talkapge consensus to include it, by preventing the IP user from editing. Joseph2302 (talk) 4:40 am, Today (UTC−5) For referral this protection granted by @CambridgeBayWeather was only archived a few hours ago as closed with one week of protection on the article. This contentious book is supposed to be published in the next few das, so it would be quite inappeopriate to remove the protection to the article due to BLP issues, and the two currently unresolved edit warring reports concerning said article. If anything the protection should be lengthened. prior archived request was granted See here: [1] "=== James Rhodes (pianist) === Persistent IP editor is threatening to re-add information that is a blatant BLP Issue. There is currently an edit warring report pending here. [2] Also I started a discussion on the article talk page so that editors may attempt to reach a consensus regarding this matter. Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 9:01 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5) The IP editor involved in the above note has now been taken to the edit warring noticeboard for making 7 reversions inside of 24 hours. See here: [3] There are currently two separate reports about edit warring involving different editors at this same article. Other one is here:[4] Thank you for attebtion to this matter. Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 9:40 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5) Semi-protected for a period of 1 week. After 1 week the page will be automatically unprotected.CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 10:38 pm, Yesterday (UTC−5)" Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 5:23 am, Today (UTC−5)" I would ask that the disruptive behaviours of Joseph2302 also be examine d in this incident. I too could make a laundry list of all the infractions, warnings, discussions, as well as instances of two personal attacks by Joseph, one at the BLP noticeboard and one other one as well. For this continued disruption by Joseph2302 I would ask an admin to block him for a certain period of time from editing. Due to his block history from his block log [276] Joseph has already been blocked two times once for (Socking + Vandalism on both socks and logged out)-penalty blocked for 72 hours, and another time blocked for an indefinite period of time. Taking that he has come back once from an indefinite block, an appropriate time for him to be blocked so he cannot cause anymore disruption would be a block of six months. He could possibly use a standard offer to come back if he cared to do so. Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 20:38, 27 May 2015 (UTC) I'm sorry but this is the funniest thing I read all day. An indefinite block?! Please spare me the humor, this is just a last ditch attempt to save yourself from being blocked. No evidence of wrongdoing by Joseph here. Even if he has a checkered past, in the future he has improved on his shortcomings. I wouldn't be suprised if the "blocks" are false, but I won't say otherwise. Only WordSeventeen is up to no good with his uncivil actions, tampering of AN/I, and who knows what else.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:02, 27 May 2015 (UTC) About the past, since people think it's relevant. As a new editor, I decided to test Wikipedia security tools by making a couple of vandalism accounts- note the person I disrupted the most was actually myself. And the other one I made 2-3 vandalism edits, and so admins assumed my account was compromised. Considering you're the only person advocating a block for me, whilst many editors seem to have complained against you, there doesn't seem to be an actual case for me to answer. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:06, 27 May 2015 (UTC) @that sounds a bit fishy josepeph, but you were blocked two times once for 72 hours and the second time you were deemed guilty of sockpupprtry and were indeed blocked from editing indefinitely? Is that not the hard truth? As for the misrepresentation by thegraceful slich above in his personal attack WP:NPA on me here just now when he posted: " I wouldn't be suprised if the "blocks" are false, but I won't say otherwise." " Only WordSeventeen is up to no good with his uncivil actions, tampering of AN/I, and who knows what else." Could you please tell the truth joseph, that the blocks are indeed true. One was for 72 hours and one for sockpuppetry was Indefinite. I left a diff above for your block log. gracefulslick's second sentence quoted above is in violation of WP:AGF as well as WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 21:40, 27 May 2015 (UTC) No, if you read the log correctly, it was 72 hours for using multiple accounts/sockpuppetry, and indefinite for vandalism/suspected compromised account. Evidence: [277] And stop accusing everyone who disagrees with you of personal attacks. You did tamper with this thread multiple times (changing the heading, removing gracefulslick's comments). Joseph2302 (talk) 21:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC) I am only here to add input about WordSeventeen's disruptive editing here on AN/I. You manipulated the thread, for your own saving. If you want somebody to admit the truth, it should be you, someone who likes to edit disruptively. Changing the header, removing comments and edit warring here. What's next? Your case is weak, and I support a block against this user. The more you edit here, the more you're compromising your "I didn't do this, and they did this instead" statement. I suggest that you relax your flying raging hormones (not NPA; everybody has hormones) as it seems you can't cooperate with other editors. And as a result, you lash out with bad editing. Callmemirela (Talk) 00:34, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Please can WordSeventeen be blocked soon? They're accusing me of sockpuppetry here, with absolutely no actual evidence. I give permission for anyone to run a CU on me, I have nothing to hide. Unlike WordSeventeen, whose every edit involving this seems to get more ridiculous, and more suspicious. Joseph2302 (talk) 01:05, 28 May 2015 (UTC) I also think that WordSeventeen should be stripped of their user rights if editing disruptively is all they're doing. This is not the way you're supposed to act in any situation. Callmemirela (Talk) 02:05, 28 May 2015 (UTC) comment ummmmm no, let's just hold up one tiney moment... Collapsing complete disruptive nonsense from WordSeventeen. Joseph2302 has only been blocked twice, and both were revoked. The rest are from a serial sockmaster who likes to use established editor's usernames with slight changes. Black Kite (talk) 09:44, 28 May 2015 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. Gabucho181 Gabucho181 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) Populated account categories: confirmed · suspected For archived investigations, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181/Archive. A long-term abuse case exists at Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Gabucho181. Please note that a case was originally opened under Incidents (talk · contribs) but has been moved to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181. Future cases should be placed under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181. Joseph2302 Joseph2302 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) Please note that a case was originally opened under Incidents (talk · contribs) but has been moved to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Joseph2302. Future cases should be placed under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Joseph2302. Joseph23023 Joseph23023 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) Please note that a case was originally opened under Incidents (talk · contribs) but has been moved to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Joseph23023. Future cases should be placed under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Joseph23023. Joseph2302 Joseph2302 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) Please note that a case was originally opened under Incidents (talk · contribs) but has been moved to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Joseph2302. Future cases should be placed under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Joseph2302. 186.81.66.3 186.81.66.3 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) Please note that a case was originally opened under Incidents (talk · contribs) but has been moved to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/186.81.66.3. Future cases should be placed under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/186.81.66.3. Joseph2302_2.0 Joseph2302_2.0 (talk+ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki) Please note that a case was originally opened under Incidents (talk · contribs) but has been moved to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Joseph2302_2.0. Future cases should be placed under Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Joseph2302_2.0. Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181) [278] Master stared his soccciiieee drawer on August 11, 2013 to the present 28 May 2015 diff of first block of the masters Gabucho181 in 2013 [279] diff of indef block 17 March 2015 connects to the sock [280] serially blocks of master above Contains five indefinite blocks from August 11, 2013 to the present May 2015 01:11, August 11, 2013 Alexf (talk | contribs) blocked Gabucho181 (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (Vandalism-only account) 21:00, March 3, 2015 Tiptoety (talk | contribs) changed block settings for Joseph2302 (2.0) (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) (Abusing multiple accounts: Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181) 20:49, March 3, 2015 Tiptoety (talk | contribs) blocked Joseph2302 (2.0) (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (Abusing multiple accounts: Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181) block report for 03:55, March 24, 2015 MusikAnimal changed block settings for Gabucho181 (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (Revoking talk page access: inappropriate use of user talk page while blocked) 03:11, March 24, 2015 Kuru (talk | contribs) changed block settings for Gabucho181 (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) (Revoking talk page access: inappropriate use of user talk page while blocked) 01:11, August 11, 2013 Alexf (talk | contribs) blocked Gabucho181 (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (Vandalism-only account) 21:00, March 3, 2015 Tiptoety (talk | contribs) changed block settings for Joseph2302 (2.0) (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) (Abusing multiple accounts: Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181) 20:49, March 3, 2015 Tiptoety (talk | contribs) blocked Joseph2302 (2.0) (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (Abusing multiple accounts: Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181) 07:55, March 17, 2015 Gogo Dodo (talk | contribs) blocked Joseph23023 (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (Vandalism-only account) block report for 03:55, March 24, 2015 MusikAnimal changed block settings for Gabucho181 (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page) (Revoking talk page access: inappropriate use of user talk page while blocked) 03:11, March 24, 2015 Kuru (talk | contribs) changed block settings for Gabucho181 (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) (Revoking talk page access: inappropriate use of user talk page while blocked) leftover possible socks from the bureau Joseph23023 - [281] Joseph2302 - [282] 21:00, March 3, 2015 Tiptoety (talk | contribs) changed block settings for Joseph2302 (2.0) (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) (Abusing multiple accounts: Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181) 20:49, March 3, 2015 Tiptoety (talk | contribs) blocked Joseph2302 (2.0) (talk | contribs) with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation blocked) (Abusing multiple accounts: Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181) Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 02:19, 28 May 2015 (UTC) I know that there this WP:OUCH thing on AN/I threads, but explain to me how exactly bringing an SPI investigation will help your case? (Which should be semi-hidden, because it terribly lengthens this page) Regardless, I stand by my statements. Callmemirela (Talk) 02:28, 28 May 2015 (UTC) As I have said, it is just a last ditch effort by a disruptive user to muddy the waters enough to possibly save themselves. It won't work since any sane admin can see this ploy.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:35, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Yes, unfortunately. Like I have said, their case is very weak. And I stand by the block and the proposal of WordSeventeen having their user rights removed. Callmemirela (Talk) 02:38, 28 May 2015 (UTC) comment I have seen your names on my watchlist, and have communicated with couple of you @DGG @Bbb23 @PBS @CambridgeBayWeather @DeltaQuad @OccultZone @TheWormthatturned #Ponyo editors I have chosen, because I need to know if I should leave this evidence out here, or post it over at SPI. I really do not want to charged with forum shopping. What do think, is it possible this stuff to be ducky, or perhaps no evidence at all, or is it excellent evidence that ties a possible master sock puppeteer over six different section section block log reports above right back to the OP of this ani? 5-6 indeffings over a 2 year period? Who knows? I ask anyone of you that may be able to apply a WP:BOOMERRANG to @Joseph2302 He really should not be allowed to be indefeed five or 6 times over a roughly two year period, and still to continue disrupting Wikipedia like has been serially for a lenghthy time. I do await further info or discussion from everyone. I am preparing to gather all info possible for the pending ARBCOM presentation. Joseph2303 should be blocked indeff again for is it 6 or 7th time? Should Joseph2302 be wilipedia banned altogether? Shoup Joseph2302 be deemed a WP:LTA? oR should he just get off scot free and allowed to to continue down the road to ARBCOM to let them decide? Who knows? Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC) There's about a million things wrong with this theory, I'll point out the main ones. Firstly, I've only been on Wikipedia since December, Gabucho has been around for 2 years. Secondly, all the IPs involved locate to Bogota, Columbia, and I live in England. Thirdly, all of the accounts mentioned above were created to attack me, in a similar style to many other socks created by that user to attack other users. The reason I end up reporting them so often is that they often frequent the same pages with some fake cartoon history, or vandalising cartoons they don't like. As I've already said, I endorse the use of CU to check my identity. As you asked, the accounts I created which led to my 72 hour block were User:KingZogKingZog and User:KingZogKingZogKingZog- no other accounts (except for my IP address, which I'm not going to reveal, as I don't want to out myself). But seriously, like all your interactions with me, you're completely wrong about me. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Looks like they've started a SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gabucho181. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC) propose 48 hour block on WordSeventeen The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. support as proposer. Behavior here at ANI is reason enough. Editor needs to cool down and come back focused on building content. Jytdog (talk) 04:33, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Oppose 48 hours is not long enough. They've been harassing me for 4-5 days now, and other people for longer than that. Plus this invented SPI is a massive personal attack. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC) 48 hours is not enough, WordSeventeen needs at least a month for his lying, disruption, and hounding in this AN/I alone.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 10:25, 28 May 2015 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Propose a one year block from editing on Joseph2302 Support as proposer. Every single character in this ani is a great more reason than should ever be needed. joseph2302 the OP was not truthful in his postings here at this ani, and since some of his posts here were untruthful as well as misleading. Such as he was just trying to "test security" at wikipedia by setting up a couple of vandalism only accounts.Every one has asked all day for proof, diffs, and evidence, I provided all three, and some poster insinuated that I was making my defenses against all of josephs baseless allegations here, then said I was disruptive by participating in the discussion. Defending ones self is always proper in an ani, and if the OP's hands are not clean he is also put under scrutiny, and will receive any sanction any administer may wish to impose upon him Cheers! WordSeventeen (talk) 05:33, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Boomerang How about a 1-year block for WordSeventeen for continued harassment and personal attacks. I was initially leaning towards a much shorter block, however they continue to attack me by calling me a sockpuppet, with no actual, sensible evidence- just because some attack accounts were created against me, they've assumed I'm the attacker. Repeated WP:NPA. Joseph2302 (talk) 09:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Support boomerang- it seems not so much hounding as harassment Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi 10:29, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Support boomerang I've been following this ANI thread closely for quite a while. I've seen a lot of evidence against Word17 combined with the refusal by Word17 to acknowledge and apologize for their mistakes and behavior, but the fact that he has even had the audacity to propose a one year block for Joseph2302 is quite disturbing. I would have found a two month block for Word17 acceptable before this post, but now I realize there is little hope for a change of his behavior in the long-term. I propose a one year if-not-longer boomerang with the removal of both reviewer and rollback rights on the grounds of Word17's grossly uncivil behavior, gaming of the system, false accusations, and all around poor conduct as documented in the thread above. He has been acting in direct violation of Wikipedia's pillars and core principles and the bottom line is that harassment of some of Wikipedia's best new editors is not acceptable. Winner 42 Talk to me! 11:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Secondary Boomerang I would also request that Word17 be removed from the list of AfC participants for a general lack of civility and understanding of policy. New-comers to Wikipedia should not have to deal with the behavior of editors such as him. Winner 42 Talk to me! 13:02, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Support Boomerang I too initially asked for a two month block, but by WordSeventeen's lack of respect for others with downright lying and disruption at this AN/I alone, he deserves a year long ban and to be stripped of his reviewer and rollback rights.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 12:40, 28 May 2015 (UTC) Could someone who has been following this please clean it up? Seriously, I cannot make heads or tails out of any of this. John from Idegon (talk) 06:56, 28 May 2015 (UTC) @John from Idegon: The situation has become quite disorganized as WordSeventeen has done their best to obfuscate the process here at ANI. The dispute appears to have originally started when Joseph2302 put Cody Sipe and Daniel M. Ritchie, two articles created by paid editors, up for deletion under G11 and G11/A7 respectively both of which Word17 declined [283][284]. Joesph then nominated both pages under AfD (both of which look like they will be deleted at the end of the seven days) and removed BLP violations from the articles [285] [286][287][288]. This dispute then spilled over to Word17's talk page where Word17 asks Joesph to revert his removal of the BLP violations [289] and Joesph complied in good faith [290]. Black Kite later came and removed the BLP violations again, because they were BLP violations [291]. So far this is all a fairly normal Wikipedia dispute, but Word17's next actions crossed way over the line. He begins assuming bad faith on the part of Joesph, implying that he is incompetent [292], claiming that he is uncivil [293] and when asked for clarification [294] Word17 templates him again [295]. Word17 goes on to follow Joesph to James Rhodes (pianist) and begins removing sourced content from the article under the guise that it is a BLP violation which it is clearly not[296]. He then becomes involved in a dispute with 131.191.80.213 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) breaking 3RR by making 4 reverts in a 24 hour period[297] and abusing the BLP policy. Consensus was reached at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#James_Rhodes that the edits were not BLP violations and therefore are not covered under the BLP violation 3RR exception. Word17 then begins going through articles that Joesph has created and proposing them for inappropriate mergers.[298] Joesph then brings the issue to ANI as this is a case of harassment, but Word17 does their best to disrupt the discussion including removing the discussion about harassment from ANI completely![299] He mucks around with the title and content of the discussion before beginning to post bizarre accusations against Joesph. Including lying about him being blocked and abusing sockpuppets. I could go on, but it seems that Word17 got a 1 month block in the name of sanity for opening false SPI. Winner 42 Talk to me! 13:49, 28 May 2015 (UTC) I have much admiration for the stamina of those who are trying to deal with the disruptive practices of WordSeventeen. I don't have that stamina and have no desire at this point to continue being involved with Wikipedia, if people like WordSeventeen are allowed to continue with such disruptive behaviors. I am a much stronger and clearer writer than WordSeventeen; there is much I could have contributed. What happened over at the James Rhodes page began with WordSeventeen claiming a "blatant" BLP violation when indeed, there was none. He then removed a paragraph I had spent extensive time researching and for which both primary and non-primary sources were included. Details of that are at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#James_Rhodes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:131.191.80.213_reported_by_User:Tgeairn_.28Result:_Protected_by_CambridgeBayWeather.29, and on the talk page of James Rhodes. His claim of a violation was an abuse of BLP policy. On the talk page, he was unable to articulate in anything approaching a clear manner how the BLP policy was being violated. I suggest people read the reasons he gave on the talk page; they indicate a gross misunderstanding of the UK Court system and he was unwilling or engage in a serious, well-reasoned discussion (the talk page provides evidence of his disruptive editing practices). Other editors finally suggested at least one more non-primary source needed to be added to the removed paragraph and then it would be acceptable; however, once I included that additional source and reinstated the paragraph, another editor then removed it. On the talk page, I justified my inclusion of a primary source and I will point out, the paragraph WordSeventeen removed HAD a non-primary source. (I will suggest that people should pay attention to whether there is a pattern of certain editors always backing other editors, in other words, are they acting in a gang-like fashion.) What I saw to be WordSeventeen's behavioral pattern on that incident was to (1) (deceptively and wrongly) claim a BLP violation then (2) fail to articulate in any clear manner his reasons for the objections. (Quite frankly, the only alternative explanation is he is incapable of reading and understanding the very Wikipedia policies he appeals to.) I saw no evidence of his engaging in a good-faith discussion. His statements were unclear, difficult to follow, and quite frankly, never justified his actions. His actions on that incident clearly indicate an intent to be disruptive. He has also developed a good ability to game the system: since his actions are so ludicrous, any reasonable person is not going to agree with his removal of the material and may revert his changes multiple times (as I did, unaware of limitations on that at Wikipedia; indeed, I didn't even know about noticeboards until I started looking around trying to figure out what BLP was and then, how to appeal his actions at some higher level. Somehow I was able to quickly comprehend BLP policy while WordSeventeen, who has edited for months, still has not, as he blatantly misapplied it on the James Rhodes page.). His behavior can also be bully-like. He threatens you if you do not agree with him (and here, too, he also games the Wikipedia policies by using them inappropriately to attack and silence someone who disagrees with him. On the James Rhodes talk page, he also engaged in personal attack against me, which I pointed out in that discussion. Now, multiple people on this page have spent extensive amounts of time providing evidence showing he has a pattern of disruptive editing and to stop him. It is ridiculous that so much time has been spent by multiple people. Meanwhile, WordSeventeen continues to be disruptive right on this page by removing material and pasting in unclear and extensive rants and other claims. The fact that this discussion has gone on so long is a sign that Wikipedia's policies err far too much on the side of allowing disruptive editors to continue. I'll leave you to it. I greatly admire the work that some editors do to ensure clear writing and strong sources for claims on Wikipedia. I admire those who can continue to participate in a virtual world where so much time is wasted on something like this, but cannot fathom how you do it. I suggest Wikipedia's policies need to be tightened to prevent such a waste of good editors' time. I simply cannot waste my time in an environment which leads to such a huge waste of time to get rid of a disruptive editor. In almost any job situation (including volunteer), WordSeventeen would be fired by now. 131.191.80.213 (talk) 09:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)131.191.80.213 (talk) 09:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Additional proposal for WordSeventeen

This is just a proposal that was originally an opinion. We're all aware of WordSeventeen's bogus editing and claims. As recently, they were unable to cooperate with others, harass editors, being uncivil, and edit disruptively. I propose that WordSeventeen's Pending Changes Reviewer and Rollback rights be removed. They have only been on Wikipedia for 11 months, and it seems they still need to learn how to be proper on Wikipedia before retrieving those user rights again. No person, with any kind of user rights, should be acting this way as WordSeventeen did. They were granted the user rights too early. Callmemirela (Talk) 20:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I've revoked WordSeventeen's PC reviewer and rollback permissions based on his behavior here. KrakatoaKatie 07:06, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment Garbling at Talk:Eurovision Song Contest

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

user:Wesley Mouse insists on garbling my comments (example) because he thinks they are libelous. Please comment.-79.223.26.113 (talk) 14:48, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

For the record, I have asked the IP to kindly remove, redact, or rephrase offending comments that are aimed at my personality. I have reminded the IP that we are suppose to discuss content not cast our personal opinion on editors in a demeanour that may tarnish an editor's personality. The IP has point-blank refused to act upon the comments that I have pointed out to be deeply offending, and has repetitively told me to "feel free to engage" and to "stop wasting time". The one wasting time is the IP who is failing to comply with a courteous request. Wes Mouse | ^T@lk 15:05, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Actually the comments you removed were aimed at your position. It is not a personal attack to say you hold a position on a subject which can be readily seen from your talkpage comments. It is permissable to remove personal attacks. It is not permissable to alter other's comments because you dont like how they portray you. Also all I see from that page is you arguing against consensus using, what can best be described as, rubbish and/or synthesis. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:16, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The comments you redacted were in no way personal attacks and you should not have touched them. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:18, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Both editors blocked 24 hours for 3RR violations on Talk:Eurovision Song Contest. The multiple reversions are not justified here. You should have sought Admin help before it went that far.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:20, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(EC) Seems overly harsh to block the IP whose comments were being altered. Granted a lot of reversions but a)their comments were being altered out of process and b)blocks preventative not punitive - once Wes has been blocked there would be no need for further reversions as the cause of the disruption will have been removed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Additionally - reverting vandalism is an exemption to 3RR, and the definitions of 'Vandalism' under 'talk page vandalism' states 'illegitamately altering others talk page comments'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:41, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Neither of the editors were justified by 3RR exemptions. 3RR is policy and TPO is a guideline and the block is preventative and not punitive. Both appeals were subsequently declined by another admin. There was no vandalism here. I'm happy to let others review and discuss however.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:50, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

However Vandalism is policy. "Illegitimately deleting or editing other users' comments." Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The key word there is "Illegitimately". That word is defined by context in the rest of the Vandalism policy, where illegitimate clearly means "with intent to harm or disrupt for its own sake". Unless the intent is disruption for disruption's sake, it is not vandalism. It may be disruptive, but not all actions that have a disruptive effect are vandalism. Only those actions with a deliberate intent to harm Wikipedia are considered vandalism. As long as the user believes their actions to earnestly be allowed by policy, or to be beneficial to Wikipedia, it isn't vandalism. It may be blockable for other reasons, so don't get me wrong there, but on the narrow question of if it is vandalism, no it isn't. --Jayron32 16:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

That is not what the policy says. 'Defined by context in the rest of the vandalism policy' is opinionated guff. It clearly states illegitimate deleting or editing. It does not say 'illegitimate where illegitimate means whatever admin decides it means at the time'. Either Wesley's altering of others comments was legitimate, or it wasnt. There is no 'well it wasnt legitimate but its not illegimate *enough*'. The policy is clearly worded with no ambiguity. So either you agree Wesley was wrongly editing anothers comments, which is vandalism by the definition of the vandalism policy, or you dont agree with the policy as it is written. And even then its ridiculous to block *after* the person whose comments were being altered has brought it to this board for attention. A simple 'Stop edit warring while its discussed' would have been sufficient. Its pure punitive. Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:42, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

There may be reasons to block or sanction him for the removal of such comments, but WP:VANDALISM is not that rationale. Vandalism is, can only be, has only ever been, and will only ever be actions taken with deliberate intent to harm Wikipedia. There are a thousand ways to get blocked. Vandalism is only one, but calling things vandalism that are not vandalism is not appropriate. Again, it doesn't mean that a person can't be blocked for doing something else wrong (and saying that specifically in this case doesn't mean that this person should. And saying that doesn't mean they shouldn't be). It just means that it wouldn't be vandalism they are blocked for. Use the word correctly please. --Jayron32 01:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

That is an amazing pile of lawyering just to justify a block against an editor that came here for help. I hope you apply that level of scrutiny every time someone is blocked for vandalism. (Yup, it's me, IP changed, can't help it.)-91.10.62.211 (talk) 22:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

An unblock request based on an understanding to not engage in further edit warring would hopefully have been granted. The request that was actually made instead wikilawyered over the reversions. TPO should probably be tightened. In almost every dispute I see here about someone reverting a talkpage comment, we would have been better off without the reversion and the accompanying drama. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 05:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

See above if you want to see wikilawyering. It's a bit cheap to use the phrase after the mountain of lawyering piled up here.

I merely pointed out in my unblock request that the changes in question deserved to be reverted, and thus reverting them does not violate 3RR. Do you disagree? Do you think Wesley's changes are legitimate?

The changes constituted vandalism according to WP:Vandalism ("Illegitimately deleting or editing other users' comments"). That's policy. Reverting vandalism does not violate 3RR. That's policy. It's really that simple.-91.10.62.211 (talk) 14:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You are now wikilawyering about what vandalism is. Wesley's edits were unsatisfactory but I don't see them as intending to harm the encylopedia on purpose, which is the essence of vandalism. Your reverts did violate 3RR as observable through your having gotten blocked for them and the block being upheld. Better would have been for you to have stopped reverting after the first revert, discussed the issue with Wesley on his talk page and/or the article talk page, and sought outside help if you weren't able to resolve the issue that way. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 16:58, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

"You are now wikilawyering about what vandalism is." - Bullshit, I'm just saying that we are allowed to revert vandalism. That's it.

"Wesley's edits were unsatisfactory but I don't see them as intending to harm the encylopedia on purpose, which is the essence of vandalism." - You don't, WP:Vandalism does. WP:Vandalism is policy.

"Your reverts did violate 3RR as observable through your having gotten blocked for them and the block being upheld." - So, the fact that I was blocked is reason enough that the block is valid. Wow, that is really scrapping the barrel. BTW, I was (quite possibly) not unblocked because I was not versed enough in the ways of wikilawyering.

"Better would have been for you to have stopped reverting after the first revert, discussed the issue with Wesley on his talk page and/or the article talk page" - With this Wesley? "Piss off you little twerp." You obviously know nothing about what was going on, so please read a bit of the history before you continue.

"sought outside help if you weren't able to resolve the issue that way." - Like, Third Opinion, RFC or ANI? I did all that. At least I wasn't blocked for contacting 3O and RFC.-91.10.62.211 (talk) 19:44, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• These were 24 hour blocks that were imposed almost 2 days ago. They expired yesterday.Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:52, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

User:AntonioMartin desysopped

For violation of policy in relation to the account User:Le Pato Frances; AntonioMartin is desysopped. They may only regain the tools through a successful request for adminship.

Supporting: Courcelles, Doug Weller, GorillaWarfare, Guerillero, LFaraone, Roger Davies, Salvio giuliano, Seraphimblade, Yunshui

For the Arbitration Committee;

Courcelles (talk) 17:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#User:AntonioMartin desysopped

Possible Sockpuppetry at Talk:Mair TV

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Can we get a few extra eyes over at Talk:Mair TV? I'm worried we might have a case of sockpuppetry on our hands. I think User:Jonnybrown333, User:MTV772, and User:86.173.222.227 might be the same person. Weegeerunner (talk) 18:01, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Mair TV and its talk page are deleted. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:31, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Links:

• Jonnybrown333 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• MTV772 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 86.173.222.227 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Follow-up: OK, so the top account and the IP have no contribs outside of the deleted article. That leaves just MTV772... --IJBall (talk) 21:54, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: User:MTV772 is currently blocked for 24 hours for making a string of rubbish pages, seemingly about employees of that organisation. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shared account being used for harassment: MaWillder

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The account MaWillder (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is shared according to this edit and this website. My user talk page was protected by Zad68 because of harassment and this is a continuation of that harassment as the user admitted they are the same as the IP user (see linked edit above). Requesting account be indefed as TOS violation. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:21, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

If you want to delete an account I didn't even create, go ahead. And as for the supposed 'harassment' of you by me, I could only wish to be subject to 'harassment' like that I were an editor, filled with information and suggestions, but that's just my odd tastes. ~~~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaWillder (talk • contribs) 21:27, May 27, 2015‎ (UTC)

Not to mention that I find it pretty bizarre that you speak of 'continued' harassment while every single one of my edits was a reaction to your action and not once did I reply to myself on your talk page. But, again, that's just me that finds this peculiar. ~~~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaWillder (talk • contribs) 21:38, May 27, 2015‎ (UTC)

@MaWillder: please properly sign your Talk page comments – do not use "nowiki" around your "~~~~" tags... --IJBall (talk) 21:51, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I was under the impression that WP:SIG explicitly allows customizing your signature with markup tags, which is exactly what I'm doing. ~~~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaWillder (talk • contribs) 21:55, May 27, 2015 (UTC)‎

No – you need to get rid of the "nowiki" stuff... --IJBall (talk) 21:56, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, you can customize it by going to Preferences>User Profile>Signature. Using nowiki means that your tildes (~) are just tildes and not your signature. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Exactly the behavior of the IP editor that was doing the previous harassment. See Talk:Self-harm#The_current_image_is_not_representative EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:09, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing my points on the irrelevance of the requirement to sign your edits to a broader audience of administrators, Fir. I would not venture to do this myself. That said, let me mention that if you've managed to identify me using my ~~~~, then it means it is clearly unique and therefore, by definition, a signature. ~~~~

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Whoa, what just happened?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

For some reason Wikipedia wasn't working for a while. Did something go wrong with the coding? --Mr. Guye (talk) 23:00, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Had that problem too for about 10 minutes. "Internal server error" was message I got. Joseph2302 (talk) 23:01, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Just a run of the mill server burp I'd guess. The IRC side of things means these type of issues normally get dealt with in a matter of minutes. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 23:03, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Considering the timing, I strongly suspect [300] this here is related. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 23:08, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Jimbo! Grognard Extraordinaire Chess (talk) Ping when replying 23:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

*Castle&Gardens*

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

*Castle&Gardens* (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User's edits started off with POV commentary, claiming some of which was just capitalizing proper nouns... Or rather, capitalizing random common nouns as if they were proper nouns.

When some basic guidelines and policies (including WP:NOR) were explained to them, as well as the difference between proper nouns (New York City, Bugs Bunny) and common nouns (city, rabbit), he went back and continued to capitalize random common nouns and added more original research.

After this, he went on to capitalize random common nouns at Walmer Castle, as well as adding some editorial commentary ("the castle" -> "this Historic House") and an unsourced date (in Roman numerals for some reason) -- all edits marked as minor despite new content or changes in meaning.

When I explained what proper nouns are (names not types), and why Wikipedia rarely cites primary sources like the Bible except to provide context to non-primary sources, he showed that he has looked up what a proper noun is (despite getting them completely wrong) and responded with "I used Biblical Scripture as a reference" (as if that was not the very problem that was being pointed out).

When I again explained the above issues, he claimed to have other sources (which he has yet to cite anywhere), demonstrated continued problems with proper nouns, and called me a "Cyber-Stalker," "Wiki-Police," and "friend of Julian himself"... A "friend of Julian" is "an indignant spectator of the triumph of Christianity;" i.e. a friend of Julian the Apostate -- which is akin to calling someone "godless" in a discussion as if it is at all relevant.

He then went on to capitalize more common nouns are Borley Rectory, as well as altering a quote and changing the cited name "Foyster" to the uncited name "Foster". When I asked them to not change names without checking sources, he insisted that it's the correct name (despite all the source cited, and any others I can find, saying otherwise). When I presented multiple sources, he tried to dismiss them because they were digital, and pointed to the "free encyclopedia anyone can edit" slogan as if that only justified his actions and no one else's, before restoring the problematic edits.

He has since taken to telling bald-faced lies with their edit summaries, continuing to capitalize random nouns while doing so. When confronted by this, he decided that my relationship status somehow has more relevance than his behavior, and claimed he was just following my example (a damn lie).

Finally, he claims that he doesn't "have a major edit button," so he "can only" click on the minor edit button.

I don't even think WP:CIR applies anymore, I'm convinced that *Castle&Gardens* is nothing but a common and irredeemable troll. The few edits he has that are of even questionable use come with flaws that would require rewriting to incorporate. Many of his edits are bad-faith lies. His interaction shows an initial WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude, followed by an inability to learn, and finally a desire to insult others. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:13, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• I blocked him for 1 week for numerous deliberately disruptive and misleading behaviors. If he continues the disruption, we can make it indefinite. --Jayron32 01:28, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User page defacement

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hi my user page was defaced diff, and I was wondering whether any users associated with the IP responsible could be banned? --Jobrot (talk) 03:49, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jobrot: I've removed the revision from the page history as grossly insulting, but the IP has not edited since. If that happens again please report it. On a separate not this seems to be related to Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, which I've protected for a week. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 04:32, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that FreeRangeFrog --Jobrot (talk) 05:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jyaku20 on 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Jyaku20 (talk · contribs) This is a new user (less than 25 edits) who has his own interpretation of a source on the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami article. For the last several days I've been protecting the article from the original research that's been added there. An edit war ensued, but we were engaged by some bystanders and it settled down. The current version of the article has the statement that contradicts its source and its edit summary summarizes his application of original research fairly well.

The source is a Japanese newspaper called Asahi Shimbun and part of the story includes comments from seismologist Kenji Satake making comparisons with the earlier 869 Sanriku earthquake event. A few things that were added are fine, but the magnitude of the event is being overstated, as the newspaper article says magnitude 8.3, yet the editor is saying 8.6–9.0.

• Japanese source
• Japanese source (translated)

Dawnseeker2000 04:13, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

See the original discussion. Dustin (talk) 04:17, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Athomeinkobe came in and provided an extremely effective and welcome change to the text, though we haven't heard from Jyaku20 yet. I'm tempted to ask that this be closed as resolved, and I don't know what can come of it, but I feel like I haven't been effective at communicating with the new user. Dawnseeker2000 06:04, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Persistent addition of uncited material by User:HoldenV8

There are a number of issues regarding HoldenV8 (talk · contribs): 1. rarely using edit summaries which I warned him on 22 May 2015 with only minor changes in this behaviour. 2. never engaging in discussion on his talk page. 3. by far the worst issue is very persistent and long term addition of uncited material, especially to BLPs. I've given multiple warnings with no effect. [301] , [302], [303].

Examples of additions of uncited material since being warned are [304], [305], [306], [307] however this problematic behaviour is at least a year old and almost every edit is uncited . LibStar (talk) 06:30, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I have also warned them for the same issues and while it seems that they may well be adding correct information the majority of the time it is not acceptable to continue adding unsourced material. They have been warned sufficiently and I think a block is now inevitable unless their behaviour changes. --Michig (talk) 07:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

yes. the behaviour hasn't changed despite 3 warnings. LibStar (talk) 08:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

even after this ANI was started, HoldenV8 adds a full uncited paragraph today [308]. I strongly believe a block is in order for failing to heed 3 warnings or explaining their conduct in this discussion. LibStar (talk) 04:30, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Sajed Mahmud

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This user has created the mis-spelled, mis-capitalised, Catagory: jewish crimes (now at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2015_May_27#Category:jewish_crimes although not technically a category as it's spelled wrongly) - either incompetent (WP:AGF) or a deliberate re-creation of a deleted category. The same editor previously made a series of edits adding the now-deleted Category:Jewish crimes to many articles. Appears to be WP:NOTHERE. PamD 07:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Threat of violence

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I've received threat of violence against me, [309] [310] and would like to ask that action be taken against this editor. (accordance with WP:Violence) also requesting administrator to delete the revision from my talk history. BTW User:Mywikieditbh had made threats in the Hindi/Urdu, you can ask the editors/administrators from India.-- shivam (t) 09:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't speak Hindi/Urdu enough to know what's being said in those edits, but obviously threats of violence are unacceptable and grounds for an immediate block. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 10:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC).

Just pinged | Shyam who was listed on the Hindi embassy , for assistance KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 13:50, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I have notified Mywikieditbh (talk · contribs) about this discussion. 220 of ^Borg 13:22, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

User:Shyam is inactive.-- shivam (t) 13:43, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Blocked. I may not be fluent, but I recognise words like "bhenchod" well enough. Yunshui ^雲_水 14:01, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles for creation/Redirects broken

Attempts at creating a new redirect are not working. I have attempted to create a new entry at Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Redirects twice, but it is not working. The new redirect request is appearing in the contents list at the top of the page, but the request itself is not appearing at the bottom. 86.153.135.110 (talk) 11:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

 Fixed Someone had reviewed a request and not added {{afc-c|b}} to the bottom of it. This had the effect of hiding all the requests below it. Your request is there twice, but was hidden-I'll remove one of them. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Globally blocked User:Michael Kühntopf sockpuppetry

There is still 2 unblocked sockpuppets of the globally blocked User:Michael Kühntopf. Found them because they were editing in the now deleted article Michael Kühntopf. These sockpuppets are already blocked in german Wikipedia. Sockpuppets are: User:Schweizerfreund[311] and User:Miles & Schnorr[312]. Kind regards Seader (talk) 12:45, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

IP GAN

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• 96.48.57.1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Talk:Shetland sheep/GA1 (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

An Ip editor has started a GA review on shetland sheep. This editor has no experience apart from one vandalism edit. Also on the page it says "Could reviewed with less "dick-ish" attitude". Not quite sure this is constructive or even good english. TheMagikCow (talk) 14:39, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

IPs are often dynamically assigned; the days of "one IP= one desktop computer = one person" are basically the internet equivalent of still owning a landline phone: it happens, but certainly should no longer be the default assumption. Without regard for whether or not the person behaved appropriately in that one edit, we cannot make any assumptions about the person using any particular IP address at any one time, because IP addresses are rarely static anymore. --Jayron32 15:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok point taken but his only other apparent edit was one of vandalism, not nice either. Also, see Wikipedia:Good_article_nominations/Instructions lead section in bold. Ips are not allowed to review GAs. TheMagikCow (talk) 15:32, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I think all we have to do here is close/archive the GAN, and inform the IP that they need to be a registered editor in order to do a GAN (and after, experience with Wikipedia is probably preferred too.) I think that about covers it unless/until the IP was to continually try to re-open it. Sergecross73 msg me 17:26, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The GA review looked like vandalism, and was against the instructions anyhow, so I have deleted the review per CSD G3 and rolled the talk page back, so it should appear back on the queue. Sometimes the GA bot trips up and delivers a "your GA review failed" message to the nominator, but hopefully what I've done here should stop that. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:15, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Knowledgekid87

Knowledgekid87 (talk · contribs) is getting on my wick. Worse, he seems to be getting on the wicks of people usually far more tolerant than myself. They were blocked by Ddstretch on 27 February this year and then unblocked the next day (Ddstretch again) - " Ok. I will unblock you on the understanding that you'll avoid drama and stop hovering around these drama-fests".

They haven't stopped. In fact, they were right back at it the following day and then retracted with this comment. They were in other AN/ANI discussions on 5 and 9 March but had reasonable cause to be in those, although no real cause for this comment in an unrelated discussion. Nor was there any need for inserting themselves in this one. Some stuff could be avoided but is mostly !voting (eg: this) but I can see no need for their efforts in this (some of which they then retracted). Some of these retractions amount almost to "light the blue paper and retire" situations, although the root cause is probably more akin to Housman's "Three minutes' thought would suffice to find this out; but thought is irksome and three minutes is a long time."

And so it goes on - the above is only the first three weeks after their unblock. Jumping to more recent events, Slim Virgin felt it necessary to comment about KK87's contributions to something at SPI, which seems rather to mirror what they did at last year's GGTF ArbCom case, where they were the second-most prolific contributor despite having no obvious involvement in matters that caused the case to arise. Bishonen had this to say and my note of 27 May was removed without comment. There have been some odd goings-on here over the last few hours, after they had again interjected themselves (AE this time), went over to EvergreenFir to offer support and (as is not uncommon) didn't really understand what they were writing about (you'll see the strikings, which came later). They have also got themselves involved in the current Lightbreather ArbCom case, again without having any real connection and again involving retractions.

Since they will not even acknowledge that they have broken their promise (eg: mentioned by me here, blanked here with nothing said in between), I think it might be best to apply some sort of formal restriction but I'm just not quite sure how to frame it. In vague terms, I'm envisioning some sort of temporary restriction on contributing to non-article/non-user talk pages and from the drama boards themselves (would we need to define them?). Somehow, we would probably need to find a way to limit their drama-based comments on user talk pages also. Maybe start with a month or two and increase it if they breach; reset the clock if they do not transgress in, say, a six month period?

Ddstretch is currently dealing with real-life issues, so I've not bothered them but will drop a standard notification on their page. - Sitush (talk) 16:39, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, about time he started focusing on content...♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:43, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld, KnowledgeKid wouldn't know about creating content if it came up and smacked him on the face. What I do know is that he will be revelling in the fact that he has a new all singing, all dancing drama at ANI; this time in his name! Cassianto^Talk 18:47, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Right now I cant really respond in full but I will say that yes I went over to EF's page to offer support, when an editor gets bashed for standing up I do not feel it is right for editors to jump on top of them. The same thing happened to Coffee during EC's last block. If you look at my edit history I have pretty much avoided "drama" (As Sitush defines it, I see drama all over Wikipedia in some form or another) and have stuck to editing articles. The past edits would have to be broken down one at a time for a more detailed history behind them. I am going to be gone for at least an hour right now, I will have more to say when I can get back online. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:56, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

This might help you - recent edits to the WP space. Obviously, it includes stuff that is entirely acceptable but it also excludes talk pages. - Sitush (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Good luck with trying to find an appropriate remedy - Knowledgekid87 has very little knowledge in the content subjects they work in. I find that a bit shocking given the length of time in which KK87 has been here, but given the Village Pump discussion about a fan service image.... the drama is not surprising. Though @Sitush: - your comment over at Tenchi Muyo (another ailing page) is the sort of thing which KK87 does in rebuttals at places like Talk:Futanari. No offense, but KK87 tries to be authoritative when he doesn't know anything. "A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool." comes to mind. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Well, I know they're weak on basic MOS stuff because I got myself in a scrap at Ani - Imo earlier today while initially looking into what they did do when not on the drama boards. But since I know nothing of manga/anime myself, I can't judge subject knowledge. I hope you are not suggesting that they might be better engaging in drama than in articles ?! - Sitush (talk) 17:19, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• KK87 doesn't seem to have read Ani-Imo, or even a full review of the work. MOS issues aside, why would you capitalize Incest and Homosexuality like that? The article is misleading in its description and it seems to have been written by a girl with a complex. I have a hard time believing KK87 wrote this... much less read such a thing. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Excuse me? "a girl with a complex"? What is this whole thing about anyways? I need to do a copyedit of the article I know, I have helped others though get to GA class. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:11, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Well when someone else does the copyedit for you, fixing MOS, spelling and grammar errors, why did you revert back to the version with the errors in it?? That's a quite terrible edit. Black Kite (talk) 18:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• I was feeling followed is why, Sitush who admitted he has no knowledge of the subject posted here on the talkpage of an article I had been working on: [313], as you can see members of the A&M project objected to it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:28, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• You felt followed so you undid good changes? That shows a distinct lack of maturity and your own pettiness. I'm okay with whatever decision the community decides - since KK87 has not matured at all since the last time. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 18:35, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• I admit I was wrong with that revert but I had enough, the second time I undid the edits I asked for it to be taken to the talkpage which in retrospect I should have done first. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:39, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) You perhaps have a heightened degree of concern, then. I have looked at two articles where you had recently been involved because I've been mulling this report for some time now. In both cases I did a bit of work and, yes, I left a note on one talk - not mentioning you - as a sort of general "kick up the backside". I had also mentioned to you that I was considering this report before I went to the Ani - Imo article. Can we get back to the drama issue, please, rather than create still more where it has no basis. - Sitush (talk) 18:41, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Chris who I have no idea why he is here brought this up, not me. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:44, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
• In those edit summaries I stood up for Rationalobserver as she was being unfairly targeted by other editors, she had done a lot of good work improving articles to GA status. EChastain was a great cause targeting editors and was blocked as a sock. As for the last few hours, EC was blocked again for posting in a place he shouldn't have which was on my watchlist, this resulted in at least two editors initially taking issue with it. I made my comment at the ARB case just like others did (who may follow the page) and thought that was that. When I saw editors targeting Evergreen on Eric's page I bit my lip and just posted a note on Ever's talkpage to ignore it [314]. Evergreen ignored the edits made but that wasn't enough, the edits were taken to green's talkpage [315]. Wikipedia isn't a WP:BATTLEGROUND editors shouldn't be targeting other editors. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

This feeling, the "I have no idea why he is here", is one other editors often have when they see your comments, Knowledgekid. (By others I mean at the very least me and several already mentioned as having left notes at your talk page.) Although your intentions may very well be good - to defend wikifriends - your methods leave a great deal to be desired. You leave too many messages. Someone who is not the focus of an SPI/ANI thread/Arbcom proceeding should generally not be the most prolific contributor to that page. You go to too many pages. It's not necessary to post at, for example, an SPI, the talk page of the person who created the SPI, the talk page of the person who is the subject of the SPI, and the talk pages of those closing or commenting on the SPI. That's spreading drama. It's inciting drama. If you truly feel a friend is being railroaded/accused improperly, you can say so. You don't need to lodge (in most cases unfounded) accusations against others. You don't need to scream conspiracy. You don't need to bring up past events that are only tangentially related. You may not have done all of those things this time, but you have done them all enough. Karanacs (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

P.S., as for your reversions of good article edits because you don't like the person who made them - that is disruptive editing and edit warring and if I ever catch you doing that again I'm blocking you immediately. Karanacs (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• This would be hard to define, and hard to enforce, but if it could be crafted better, I'd suggest "KK is prohibited from getting involved in issues that do not directly concern him. To be reviewed in 6 months." Or something along those lines. I have never seen a comment of his in a touchy situation that made the situation better. I don't doubt his good faith, really, but I do not believe he has sufficient good judgement to get involved in other people's problems. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

  If you think good will come out of it then I will take the ban, I don't know what issues though in particular I would be banned from. I just want you to know my edits have been in good faith and I don't like seeing others get beaten up. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:04, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

  It's comments like this [316] that are a part of the problem. You are assuming that RationalObserver was targeted and people were acting inappropriately. What actually happened is that RO was acting disruptively, RO was blocked and unblocked, and RO has not acted disruptively since then. People aren't upset with RO anymore, because RO changed her behavior and is focusing on oroducing content. Either 1) you don't understand what targeting actually is, 2) you don't understand what behavior is disruptive, or 3) you don't care about the behavior as long as it comes from a pal...any of those three make me question whether you should be participating in any project-level conversations at all. Karanacs (talk) 19:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

  She was targeted by User:EChastain and a handful of editors who thought she was a sock. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

  Opening that thread at RO's talk page was indeed another example of very poor judgement and I hope that she takes Floq's advice. I'm not sure why you chose to leave a note just there, given all the other people mentioned in the diffs in my opening statement, but it really was a bad one to pick, whether you were canvassing or not. IIRC, Rationalobserver has recently declared a prior user account to ArbCom - I'm not fussed provided that she keeps up the sort work she has been doing recently and in which I had a small hand.

  I'm thinking on Floq's suggestion above. It is a tricky issue, although I do think we have managed to deploy it in the past specifically for AN/ANI - just cannot remember any names. - Sitush (talk) 19:35, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

  Many years ago, just after I passed RfA if I remember correctly, we did place an editing restriction on an editor - for the life of me I can't remember who they were - which stated that any non-articlespace edit must be directly related to article improvement. I think there was an exception for commenting at discussions (i.e. XfD, RfA). Black Kite (talk) 00:23, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• My problem here is that "heightening drama" is completely ill-defined. I mean, everyone weighing in on this complaint who hasn't been involved in altercations with Knowledgekid could be seen as involving themselves in drama (including myself). Look at Eric Corbett's talk page since his recent block...there are over a dozen editors criticizing his block, making accusations, all of which is definitely heightening the drama but they are seen as expressing support for Corbett, not drama mongering, even though they all have absolutely nothing to do with his block. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 12:30, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Not entirely true, Liz, but then you have misread things concerning me recently in other matters, which is worrying. My involvement at that talk page is related to his block, as I tried to explain at AE when admins started jumping to conclusions about watchlists. And the drama there is due to a bad block made due to a report by someone who issued personal attacks and was not censured for them. - Sitush (talk) 14:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about any editor specifically, Sitush. Just wondering why messages of support on one editor's talk page (by KnowledgeKid) is seen as heightening drama while in other situations, comments by uninvolved editors are not seen as amping up the drama. And I don't think you can change the point of focus from the individual posting to the subject of the drama (the block) unless KnowledgeKid's user talk page posts are also put into context (being about a subject, not being about him). Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec)Knowledgekid is not the only one who frequently stirs drama. If those posting, for example, on Eric's page, are also posting the same comments in 3 or 4 other places on-Wiki right now and are leveling unfounded accusations repeatedly, then maybe they need a similar topic ban. Karanacs (talk) 14:28, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) all have absolutely nothing to do with his block - I'm one of them, so it isn't all. But this is off-topic, although I'm not surprised to see you raise it given the recent events and your somewhat naive first-ever post at that page today. If you bring Eric Corbett into this thread it will deteriorate rapidly, as you should know. Feel free to collapse this bit or retract. - Sitush (talk) 14:30, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The difference is Liz is that KnowledgeKid is a talk page tart who pitches up anywhere where there is drama, whilst those who post on Eric's talk keep it to Eric's talk. Cassianto^Talk 16:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• I don't know much about Knowledgekid's article work; I've never run into it, I believe. Their other work is--how do I put this diplomatically--of no use, and serves only to heighten drama in situations they choose to stick their nose. Drmies (talk) 21:19, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment: Per Floquenbeam's comment,"I have never seen a comment of his in a touchy situation that made the situation better," and Drmies' comment above that KK tends to "heighten drama," I must concur. KK can pretty much be counted on to stir the pot and increase contentiousness on a regular basis. A look at contribs shows Knowledgekid87 is sitting about about 50% on mainspace contributions versus talk and drama, so a restriction that comments be confined to something combining Black Kite's suggestion and Floquenbeam's would be appropriate. Or perhaps a restriction of one comment per day per topic at talk, also, unless it's an article KK has contributed to prior to whatever drama triggers a discussion. This editor isn't as problematic as a lot of others, but I think an admonition that pot-stirring isn't helping the project might be in order. Montanabw^(talk) 05:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• (e/c) As the admin who blocked and then unblocked Knowledgekid for stirring up drama (involving Rationalobserver) and then, after extracting a promise from him to just add content and not involve himself in any drama in future, I think I may be allowed to comment here.

  I am deeply sad that Knowledgekid seemed to ignore his promise made, right from the start, and as others have documented above. I did try to reason with him to adhere to the promise made, as did others over time (again as documented above), but to no avail, and so we find ourselves here. Perhaps I should have acted before now and re-imposed the block on him to try to put a stop to his seemingly obsessive behaviour of putting his nose into drama that doesn't involve him? But I was unsure if this could be justified at the time.

  The promise he made allowed for no special cases involving friends of his or any perceived targetting of them, but if one examines the cases where he has involved himself since then, many of them involve disputes involving Eric Corbett or some of his perceived supporters, where Knowledgekid's friends have been at fault. He was, for example, making comments in the latest case that didn't involve him at all, and which led to the most recent block against Eric Corbett.

  The basic issue is that, for whatever reasons, Knowledgekid made a promise that enabled him to have a block removed, and then almost immediately broke this promise and went back to getting involved in drama. He has become untrustworthy, and therefore unreliable even about himself. Whether he lied is a matter only he can know, but if he didn't lie, his behaviour shows such a lack of insight or reflection on what he is doing, that there may be an issue of competence here. To echo what others have said: when he injects himself into disputes, his contributions seem invariably to make bad situations worse. (In some cases, he has acted similarly to those people who shout "jump!" to people wanting to commit suicide by throwing themselves off buildings. In these cases, one wonders just how he thought his contributions were helping his friends.)

  If I had re-imposed the block, I would definitely comment on breaking the promise and its circumstances, and that would mean that, effectively, no real chance of any successful appeal against that re-imposed block could really succeed, assuming that the admin who looked at any appeal considered the circumstances properly. This troubled me and stayed my hand.

  Although we are required to assume good faith, it seems difficult for me to justifiably do so in his case, given his broken promise, and the speed and frequency in which he involves himself in topics that he has no connection with. And this is the more so given the number of people who have referred to his promise in an attempt to stop his disruptive behaviour. He seems so unable to have any insight into this that he doesn't refer to the original promise at all, but protests that he was helping out people he perceives were put upon. This is so inaccurate, especially in the latest case, where, even as this discussion was taking place, he attempted to drag Rationalobserver into this dispute. Rationalobserver has made an excellent reform in their own behaviour since their own problems. Problems in which Knowledgekid also had a big hand in attempting to stir up more drama, and which led to my block of him and the subsequent promise he made to get himself unblocked.

  My own feeling, which may well be biased now, is that Knowledgekid should immediately have the block he appealed against and which I lifted re-imposed. This should show him how seriously we take broken promises to evade a block. It would also be preventative, because he seems completely unable to stop himself, and no amount of assurances he now might make could convince me that he would change in such a short period of time. It would also send out a strong message to others who might be tempted to bait or drive drama. Subsequent to that block being lifted, I suggest that we now decide on strict editing restrictions for him: he should only contribute content; any talk page comments should be specifically about content, and should normally be made on those articles' talk pages. He should be able to contribute to his own talk page, however. If he wants to talk to others, he can ping them and direct them to his own talk page. His talk page should be monitored. Any involvement in drama seen on them should be subject to some kind of action. I suggest that these restrictions last for a sufficient period of time to hope that he matures and gains insight. As I said, I may be biased here because of the sadness I have about his inability to keep to a serious promise he made to me.

  I apologize for the length of this comment.  DDStretch  (talk) 05:46, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Ddstretch, we might have to make an exception for the anime/manga project talk page and, for example, for contributions to WP:RSN. - Sitush (talk) 06:15, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• I concur with Sitush that KK87 has made substantial contributions to the anime/manga articles that are clearly where his heart is at; it would be "bouncing the rubble" to say he couldn't edit there - as far as I can tell, his contributions in that area have been mostly constructive. Let him do what he does best, then. Didn't WP ban Eric Corbett specifically from RfA and GGTF? If they can do that, I'd say asking KK to stay away from the drama boards, liberally construed, is a doable idea. Montanabw^(talk) 06:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Ok. I overlooked his positive contributions to that project page, and to WP:RSN. I don't want to restrict him from any of the pages where he writes content. However, I think we need to be a bit more broad than "drama boards, liberally construed" because a reasonable amount of the stirring goes on on individual editors' talk pages. We could then say "stay away from the drama boards, liberally construed, and additionally stay out of any discussions on any editor's talk page that involves drama (liberally construed) in which he is not directly involved himself." What about re-imposing the block that he evaded by breaking the promise?  DDStretch  (talk) 09:43, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Topic ban proposed (Knowledgekid87)

I would suggest not reblocking—72 hours would pass quickly and achieve nothing. I haven't seen the current issues, but my observations from several weeks ago confirm the views above that KK87's comments are usually most unhelpful. Translating the proposal to more formal language, how about:

Knowledgekid87 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic banned from all noticeboards and talk pages other than to comment on actionable proposals for improvements to an article that Knowledgekid87 is working on. In addition, any comments or edit summaries by Knowledgekid87 must concern article content and not other editors.

• Support as above. Johnuniq (talk) 10:23, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Could I particularly ask why you jump to an 'indefinite topic ban' of this caliber? As far as I know, KK has never been the result of any sanction of this type and the 'promise' that he apparently broke is not actionable and absolutely shouldn't be held against them. (Reminded of admins who promised to be open to recall but weren't.) I would support a 3 month topic ban of this caliber--though I'm concerned about the prospects of it. They wouldn't be able to report people hounding them or people adequately baiting him because he's topic banned from all noticeboards. I wouldn't want to leave an editor without an avenue for abuse against them. Tutelary (talk) 12:40, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I am open to a topic ban, but per Tutelary I want to be sure I can report things without other editors taking advantage of it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

If KK kept his nose out of other people's business then he wouldn't receive abuse in the first place. Those who stick their nose into a beehive are going to get more than a nostril full of honey. Cassianto^Talk 17:23, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I think everyone here reads you loud and clear and at this point I don't know if you are trying to get a rise or not. Is there a reason why you have been only editing here over the last 24 hours? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:01, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Wouldnt want to miss the boat, that's all. Cassianto^Talk 21:32, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Johnuniq's proposal as worded, especially per Karanacs' cogent posts above.[317][318] Adding a new section header for it. (And, oh yeah, how appropriate to see Tutelary here. Yet another stirrer, only not quite as busy as KK.) Bishonen | talk 14:07, 29 May 2015 (UTC).

• Comment The problem with as worded is that it limits my collaborations with other editors in building articles. I am talking about for example issues that may come up on the A&M talkpage. Does it only have to be articles that I am working on? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:18, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I think any topic ban of this nature should contain a time limit (6-12 months) and an exception that allows him to respond on any topic in which he is directly involved. Karanacs (talk) 14:23, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• They must be allowed to respond if directly involved. Not sure about the other bit: how often is it the case that "indefinite" does actually mean "infinite"? If it happens a lot then, yes, there should be a time limit. - Sitush (talk) 14:34, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Indefinite means I would have to go ask an admin directly, I know that it is usually like 6 months right? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support for reasons explained by others, above. I assume that this would also include Arbcom pages for which Knowledgekid87 is not a party. While I believe there is good faith behind their participation in various disputes, they tend to add little to actually resolving the disputes. A focus on content, rather than contributors would be a welcomed change for all concerned.- MrX 14:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• Not quite so strict for now. First, addressing one of User:Liz's comments somewhere above, I don't care about his main space to project space ratio; I'm sure it's better than mine. If someone is being useful in project space, more power to them. The problem is not that he's commenting on things he's not involved with per se; it's in being almost uniformly unhelpful in those comments. Far too often he is misinformed or adds fuel to the fire, and he ends up striking his comments in whole or in part, after the damage is done. he is not alone in this, but he is the clearest example of it I can think of.

  Crafting the wording of something like this by committee is always tricky. I think it obviously needs to include a mechanism for him to report issues that directly affect him. I also feel he shouldn't be prevented from occasional non-content chats with friends, like all of us do; that's a recipe for a miserable existence, and an impossible topic ban. What needs to be prevented is the self-insertion into drama, and the problem is I don't know that he will be able to recognize the difference, and I can't think of a clearcut way to word it. I'd be inclined to say "Don't insert yourself into other people's drama, at AN/ANI, ArbCom, user talk pages, or anywhere else. Try harder to recognize when that is happening. If someone points out you're doing it unintentionally, stop immediately. If you keep doing it unintentionally, something worse will be imposed". And see if that works. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that if an editor or admin points out some behavior is a problem, the editor should seriously consider this warning and adapt their behavior, especially if several users indicate it is a problem.

I guess what I was trying to say above, bottom line, is that if the act that is necessitating a ban is the act of going to editor's talk page and posting unhelpful messages about disputes that the visiting editor is not a party to...well, there are a lot of editors who do this or have done this in the past. I know I've received unhelpful comments from an editor chiming in about a talk page argument that they weren't a party to and I'm sure my case is not an exception. And WP:ANI is one big exercise of editors weighing in on disputes they might know little or nothing about. But editors still offer their opinions, both those that are considered helpful and those that are not...which kind this is, I leave up to the reader. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

'*Oppose as written I have a problem with indefinite topic bans as a lot can change in 3 months, and I don't exactly trust administrators to give a satisfactory criteria for the removal of an indefinite topic ban--especially if they've had it for a while. I'm sure that within 3 months of a topic ban, he'll be fine--I'd be fine with a 3 month one, just not indefinite. And yeah, someone will counter me with 'indefinite doesn't mean infinite' but I've seen far too any indefinite topic bans without any possibility of any definite one. What happened to month ones? We just skip straight to indefinite without trying any of the more lenient options beforehand? It also offers no ability or exception for KK to report to the noticeboards if someone is doing something to -him- because obviously, that would cause drama that he can't cause himself, leaving him open. Tutelary (talk) 15:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support for only 3 months - Indefinite is not required. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• I always prefer "per Floquenbeam", as a rule. If that doesn't make the cut I'll go per Johnuniq, provided that "talk pages" is taken as inclusively as possible, including all talk pages except their own. I think blocking Eric for something on his own talk page is BS, and I wouldn't want to exact the same kind of pitiless and meaningless vengeance on anyone else. But Knowledgekid would do well to basically stay the hell away from anyone else's talk page if it's not about content. Also, per Bishonen, generally. Drmies (talk) 17:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Content removal and edit-warring by COI editor

At International Archives of Medicine (diffs: [319], [320] and [321]). Can some admins take a look and comment, block, protect etc? See discussion I stated at talk-page, which the IP who claims to be the journals's publisher have not responded to. Abecedare (talk) 21:03, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I restored the material (minus the unsourced name you removed). The IP is obviously attempting to remove material they don't like. There's nothing wrong with it, and unless they engage in some discussion it shouldn't be removed. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

i would like to report for blocking for nothing and undo me after i gave more than 5 reliable sources and even 6 reliable books

hello their wikipedians first of all on this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herut i said that the herut got moderated with the years and im not being a sockpuppet just cuz i supported something that someone already wrote i gave here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Herut#7_sources_that_claim_the_herut_moderated i wrote that herut party got moderated and gave7 reliable sources including 6 reliable books and the wikipdia editors still undo it. so what now we need to throw all our books into the garbage and based only about the editors of wikipedia? so the wikipedia editors are god now that know every thing for every thing even more than books? they are humans just like me and humans sometimes can wrong and i gave 6 reliable books. the only reason that im using other account is that you blocked my other for infinity and i dont even have the option to report for unblock. please back my other edit i left 6 reliable books already. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shoncohen (talk • contribs) 21:13, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I would revert this edit, but it seems this is the second time this users has opened this section. First, no edits were made by this user other than here. Second, requesting block since this user admits to sock puppetry. Callmemirela (Talk) 21:25, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Er, wow. Number 57 has been blocking (sock, apparently), has been altering protection on the article and also editing it. No comment on the merits of the above but that alone doesn't look great. - Sitush (talk) 21:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

As I noted on the article talk page, anyone is welcome to have a look at page history. It has been the target of a number of socks over the past fortnight (Orcohen45 (talk · contribs), Morbenmoshe (talk · contribs), 80.246.133.64 (talk · contribs) etc). Only after it became obvious that this was going on did I actually block an editor and protect the page (I did not block Orcohen45 or Morbenmoshe). Number 57 21:34, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Apparently the recent edits have just been maintenance/clean up after the socks. Not sure about the older ones - does "involved" ever expire? I'll take the content stuff to the talk page. - Sitush (talk) 21:35, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

This seems like a continuation of this conversation: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive271#hello. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:22, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Looks like routine janitorial work to me, on the face of it there's nothing wrong with what Number57 has done here - Wikipedia is not a bureauicracy. Guy (Help!) 11:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Question ' is this you ? If so, why are using an IP. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:45, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Meh. The account is blocked, but I still can't work out what on earth he's wibbling about. Maybe that's the problem. Guy (Help!) 17:26, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The "wibbling" was resolved by me, as per the discussion on the talk page. Basically, the sources are reliable and the point they wanted to make was valid. It was just that admins had gone into auto-revert mode due to socking - Number 57 even acknowledged on the talk page that the point was valid and the sources likely to be, although they hadn't checked them (they were university presses!). There was a query about the location of the information but that is trivial stuff. I'm not terribly happy about what went on, which appeared to be some sort of blind revert even while acknowledging the likely accuracy of the information but, hey, what do I know. - Sitush (talk) 17:33, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

User Redleafjumper COI

Hi,

This is a discussion with regard to Redleafjumper on his edit on National Firearms Association ([322]) which I believed to lack neutrality and reflect copyright infringement. He insists that the previous content are "inflammatory and incorrect" and his edits ", which are accurate and verifiable, have been placed there to provide a much more balanced picture." During the discussion, he also voluntarily admit that he is Sheldon Clare, Present of NFA ([323]), i.e. the organisation concerned and thus has conflict of interest.

As there are a good number of issues concerned in this case (COI, neutrality, copyright infringement), I thought this issue can be better resolved here. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks, — Andrew Y _talk 21:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The editor has been notified of the concern, and the edit reverted. What else do you suggest be done at this point? DES ^(talk) 23:04, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I suspect that the account is a way for user:50.99.229.19 to evade the enacted block for evasion. I would argue that an SPI with check user should be opened. 208.81.212.222 (talk) 01:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Case opened at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Redleafjumper. I have not requested a check user at this stage because I am unable to fully justify the use myself but I trust that SPI clerk would request that if needed. If the two accounts are linked then this may support a stronger action against both accounts? — Andrew Y _talk 08:16, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Fake articles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have found two fakes: Jonathan Adriano and Daniel dos Santos (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Fake bios?). SLBedit (talk) 22:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

It would help if you explained why you have concluded that they are fakes. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

No such footballers exist. The references added to the articles are also fake. SLBedit (talk) 22:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

At least the Jonathan Adriano article seriously stinks; cannot find any sources. I suspect someones wishfully thinking/hoping he was Adriana Limas boyfriend... Huldra (talk) 22:27, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Can confirm this for at least Jonathan Adriano. No mention on the official site of Go Ahead Eagles. A search for "Jonathan Adriano" AND "Go Ahead Eagles" at google gives exactly three results: 1x our article, 1x mention at tool labs & 1 false-positive (this one). Even with the rather exact specification—necessary in this case due to the sheer amount of false positives I got without—if such a person had ever been signed to or played as much as a minute for the GAE, there'd have been a mention somewhere. Could find no sources for a person with this name ever playing for several of the other clubs listed. (Didn't bother checking all of them. After four came up empty, that was more than enough proof). AddWittyNameHere (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• There's no Adriano with Go Ahead. Article deleted. Drmies (talk) 22:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Also blocked both article creators Juancronicles (talk · contribs) and Easymoneymaker (talk · contribs) who besides creating the fake articles and some vandalism, are clearly socks. Abecedare (talk) 22:59, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Second opinion on misc ref desk question title.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This is my first AN:I EVER. So go easy. Hope some neutrality exists here.

Basically, I created a question titled "Black Murders" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#Black_Murders

There is no racist subject in the question, it was merely a request for data and statistics. Yet two editors (medeis and andythegrump) keep fiddling with the title without any due process whatsoever apart from their 'opinion'. Can someone here lock the title or tell them to refrain from mangling my questions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#Conviction_and_sentencing_rates_by_race — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.140.226 (talk) 23:01, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I would like to add that I would at the very least expect an apology from both editors and reassurance that this won't happen again (including threats to have me blocked) 82.28.140.226 (talk) 23:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Involved. Neither Medeis nor Andy have bothered trying to talk to the OP, and after Medeis's Bold change of the title was Reverted by the IP she simply reverted to her version with no attempt at discussion. Andy then picked up the stick, and threw in an edit-notice threat of asking for a block - still without talking to the OP. I got pretty fed up with this behaviour and jumped in with a few reverts too, so I suppose I'm out of order on BRD too. It is an interesting question that the OP asked - I wouldn't have given it that title myself, but I don't think it's anything worth getting anybody's knickers in a twist about. DuncanHill (talk) 23:10, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Reference desk (and all) section titles are supposed to be neutrally worded and informative. I find "black murderers" patently and personally offensive, not to mention obviously inflammtory as has been mentioned in the thread itself. There's no requirement that we discuss this issue with an IP or get his permission to change it to a meaningful title such as "Conviction_and_sentencing_rates_by_race". Frankly, it's quite obvious this whole thing is a deliberate provocation by an IP editor with a six-day edit history filing an ANI like a seasoned pro. μηδείς (talk) 23:14, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

See also the IP user's immediate revert of this edit by Gazhiley, calling them a troll in the IP's edit summary. The user is not here to build an encyclopedia. μηδείς (talk) 23:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• So new editors who find ANI are to be assumed to be guilty of something? Maybe we should have an editnotice telling them not to come here. And the only comment other than mine, up to now, was one from someone falsely claiming that the question wasn't a request for information when it patently was. DuncanHill (talk) 23:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

  And Medeis - the IP's revert was NOT immediate, so stop lying. DuncanHill (talk) 23:24, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

  The question was factual, has already (thanks to me) received some informative answer - both links to WP articles, and to external resources, so seems to me to be exactly what the RefDesks are for. As for "not being here to build an encyclopaedia, if I were Medeis I wouldn't try playing that card. DuncanHill (talk) 23:26, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

All of the titles are of debatable quality but the real issue here seems to be edit-warring today, over the title to this section. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Per Liz's observation, at the moment it bears all of the hallmarks of an awkward attempt at finding a WP:COMMONNAME for the article. The choice of WP:TITLE strikes me as being a somewhat pejorative piece of WP:OR. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:40, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The problem here is that a number of editors are attempting to find neutral section titles (as required) and a couple of editors are putting roadblocks in their path by reverting everything but the original title, which was most certainly not neutral. I suggest that those editors doing the reverting be sanctioned with appropriate blocks for disruptive editing, so that some other title, neutral in nature, can be used. BMK (talk) 00:52, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Yup. That and feeding an obvious troll... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:15, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Would anyone care to say why they see the original title as "not neutral" or "obvious trolling"? The question is about black murderers, and how they are treated in the USA in comparison to white murderers. No-one has yet given any reason for finding the title unacceptable. DuncanHill (talk) 16:41, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Speaking of censorship, the IP in question did some censoring of his own before posting that question.[324] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:07, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The IP who posted the deleted response was blocked for 6 months for "persistent disruptive editing". I think in a case like that deleting their posts is fair, particularly in a case like that where it added nothing (I think it was clear in the context of the thread that Medies was referring to in general, not to each other) regardless of whether it may not have been that disruptive. However I'm not sure the removal was intentional any way. It looks to me much more like a mediawiki or wikimedia glitch killed the most recent post. Nil Einne (talk) 16:08, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

That was an obvious Wikimedia glitch. DuncanHill (talk) 16:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

See further diffs by the IP/OP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous&type=revision&diff=664584930&oldid=664584844

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AReference_desk%2FMiscellaneous&type=revision&diff=664594885&oldid=664594152

These are racial trolling. Recommend a block Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You are POV pushing here and suffering confirmation bias. As for troll calling on me here, you are contradicting yourself. A mis-type now becomes overwhelming proof that I am racist. Please get over yourself. Call a duck a duck if it is one. Don't call a Dove one, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.28.140.226 (talk) 21:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Zackmann08 Making Several Disruptive Edits

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I just warned Zachmann08 for making a disruptive blanking edit to Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety which he promptly deleted. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kalamazoo_Department_of_Public_Safety&diff=prev&oldid=664478302

I have also noticed several other warnings from other users on his page as well for similar things. This user seems to be making several disruptive edits and possible in need of some intervention. Zlassiter (talk) 23:12, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I see no evidence of blanking by Zachmann. He removed an addition made by the OP referenced to YouTube properly which the OP replaced. IMO his nomination of the article in question for deletion was somewhat in bad faith, and he has some CIR issues but this can be closed. Reporter needs to know Zach can blank his talk page and as long as it doesn't turn into a revert war, there was no harm or ill will in his revert. John from Idegon (talk) 23:40, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I would like to point out that Zlassiter simply copied and pasted warnings seen on other pages and placed that at the top of my user page. No attempt was ever made to initiate a dialogue. I reverted a SINGLE edit by this particular user because I felt that it violated WP:YOUTUBE. The use disagreed and reverted my revert. Not one to engage in an WP:EDITWAR I left the issue and moved on. John from Idegon did recently help me understand some of the mistakes that I am making. I do however think it is absurd that Zlassiter who has less than 20 edits (most of which were his attempt to report me as needing intervention from an admin), feels the need to report my edits. I have been editing on here for years. To be clear, that doesn't mean I can do what I want! Of course it doesn't. My point is start a dialogue! If you have an issue with me, talk to me. Don't just jump to reporting someone and don't start editing and have your 6th EVER edit on Wikipedia be to warn a user with over 7,000 edits. If any admins have any feedback for me on things I can do better, PLEASE let me know! I welcome any and all feedback. --Zackmann08 (talk) 00:40, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Zackmann08. You want a very helpful suggestion? Drop it, like a hot rock. The OP here is a very new user, but has done nothing terribly wrong. Copy and paste is how you apply templates if you don't use twinkle or huggle or sticki or any of the other aids available. There is something at these dramaboards however called boomerang. Your conduct today is not beyond reproach. I tried to make this go away. You would be best served by letting it do that. John from Idegon (talk) 01:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Clearly not an issue for ANI - reasonable edits on both sides with no edit warring whatsoever. Zlassiter, I strongly recommend discussion with other editors before bringing an issue here. Recommending closure.--Mojo Hand (talk) 01:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Block review requested: Lindi29

I request review for my block of Lindi29 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Thank you. Magog the Ogre (t • c) 00:45, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Having looked through the contributor's history, I don't see any basis for their request to be reviewed in earnest. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: thank you for your opinion.

Some back story for everyone:

• This user has previously been blocked for violating 1RR on the same article, and stated he didn't understand the block on that occasion.
• To assume good faith: the user may have been protecting the article from poorly sourced revisions by at least one newish user (explained below). Thus s/he could have broken 1RR on a technicality because the community would have decided that the original edits were inappropriate.

The page has a consensus for what constitutes a valid source, which is different than the rest of Wikipedia due to the fact foreign reporters are not allowed in the country and there is little to no unbiased coverage of the dispute from parties on the ground. Magog the Ogre (t • c) 01:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Reverting due to the value of sources isn't an exception (cf. WP:3RRNO) so they are still in violation of the 1RR. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 01:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I've also looked and the block seems fair. I might be persuaded to remove it by a well written unblock request, but the one that's there doesn't even get close to what we'd need to see. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 10:21, 29 May 2015 (UTC).

Not so sure - the first revert was to remove twitter which is not a reliable source, so that's fine. The second revert doesn't look like a revert. I'd say the block would need to be reversed. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:14, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Aerotoxic syndrome

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Aerotoxic syndrome was protected a few weeks ago due to an ip editor continually adding content that fails MEDRS and refusing to discuss on the talk page. The page protection has expired, and the ip editor is re-adding the same bad content again against consensus and without discussing. --sciencewatcher (talk) 17:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

PS sorry I don't have time to supply edit logs, but if you look at the edit history you'll see pretty quickly the issue. --sciencewatcher (talk) 17:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

But the admins at WP:ANI will ask for diffs. Your report is likely to be ignored unless you provide diffs. That's just the way it is. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You -can- report it here if you like, but WP:RFPP is generally where you would request protection. They might also ask for diffs. Tutelary (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

(ec) I remember this case, and have gone ahead and protected the article for another month. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Diannaa. Drmies (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sockpuppet enquiry

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I have submitted a SPI request at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/RebeccaTheAwesomeXD, although I'm not sure if I have done it correctly - its the first time I've ever done one. But anyway, if an admin could please have a look as it is a clear quacking case.

RebeccaTheAwesomeXD (talk · contribs) was blocked on 4 occasions for violation of a WP:NEWBLPBAN sanction, the latest being for 3 months. Now she has returned under the name RebeccaTheMegaAwesome (talk · contribs) and editing the same line of articles, including the creation of a BLP article. Anyone fancy going duck shooting? lol Wes Mouse | ^T@lk 20:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I have formatted the SPI information to comply to {{SPI report}}, however, I would suggest you supply evidence in the form of diffs, as SPI clerks and admins are not expected to make your argument for you. -- Orduin ^Discuss 21:10, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Orduin: I will happily supply diffs, if someone could point me in the direction of what types of diffs they require? Evidence of editing patterns, or the diff to show they are on the WP:NEWBLPBAN list; or even diffs showing each of their blocks, with the current 3-month block still active. However, the names alone are a clear looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck case. Wes Mouse | ^T@lk 21:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree with you on the quacking going on, but at least some editing patterns would suffice. The rest is simple to check. -- Orduin ^Discuss 21:22, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Orduin: Both accounts have been indef blocked by CT Cooper. Wes Mouse | ^T@lk 21:23, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vandalism / disruptive editing, now also block evasion

Same as Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#"outdated" put on dozens of pages without reason.

(Was previously by: 201.218.11.42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), blocked because of disruptive editing).

Block evasion now, too!

New user name: Hillbilly Dragon Farmer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please mass-revert these useless "contributions". User spams lots of (in his limited view) finance-related pages with "Template:update", even when they are not at all finance related... Thanks.

--93.204.119.103 (talk) 21:22, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked and rolled back. Thanks for the report. Probably a sock of someone, but I don't see any terribly obvious suspects. Monty₈₄₅ 21:32, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Related accounts: Dark liquidity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Bamboozled malo en wikipedia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Secretive 827-mile cable (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Algorithmic trader 007 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Front Running Gringo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) PortugueseManofPeace (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (blocked sock: SPI Archive) and ultimately David Adam Kess (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (blocked: ANI Archive) - seems like this is an old sockpuppeteer. --93.204.119.103 (talk) 22:36, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The administrator User:Black Kite has promoted the violation of WP:NPOV/WP:VAND/WP:DISRUPT policies

There was already a dispute: in which the administrator didn't take any serious action on it, and instead tried to justify his wrong decision [325], concerning page protection, with a false positive saying that the vandaled editor "have not justified their edits": while the vandaled editor has clearly justified his edit [326] in the talk page as described in the 3RR noticeboard.

The administrator didn't take any action on the unauthorized edit [327] done by the reported user after protecting the page.

All what this administrator did was unacceptable and a disappointment: and he is like to be involved in a conspiracy with User:Ahunt against free content related to the "opinions supporting GNU/Linux" section in the GNU/Linux naming controversy article.

This administrator should be punished for what he did. And the User:Ahunt should get his edits, which violated the WP:NPOV, WP:VAND and WP:DISRUPT policies as described in the 3RR noticeboard section, reverted, if not blocking his account for a period. 41.224.105.105 (talk) 21:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The diffs you provided show nothing inappropriate. What is the basis for the requested punishment? Chillum 21:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

It seem the diffs have since been updated. Still, all I see is a content dispute. Chillum 21:44, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

What's still not clear here? I think that I'm well knowing what I'm doing when I wrote all that. I want that you understand well this issue to solve it correctly. 41.224.105.105 (talk) 22:01, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Unauthorised edit? What? The page was only semiprotected, not fully protected so there's no such thing as an "unauthorised edit". Even editing a page fully protected due to edit warring isn't really unauthorised except perhaps when it's in violation of WMF orders, but I'd understand calling editing such a fully protected page unauthorised.. Bad edits sure (although I'm not saying any of the edits were bad), but unauthorised no. I guess at a stretch you could say an edit which violates the TOU, such as paid editing without disclosure is an unauthorised edit but I'm not seeing any suggestion of that. This has all the hallmarks of a run of the mill content dispute with a lot of edit warring, particularly on your part. Nil Einne (talk) 21:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

BTW commenting on the talk page rarely justifies edit warring, particularly when the other parties have participated in the discussion. If you can't reach WP:consensus, there is always the many methods of WP:Dispute resolution. While it takes to 2 edit war, if it's a single IP or new editor or SPA, edit warring against a stable version supported by 2 other established editors, people are rarely likely to look favourable on the IP no matter the content at hand (which would usually be irrelevant to any enforcement anyway), except in special cases such as a clear cut BLP violation. Nil Einne (talk) 21:46, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

WP:consensus? it wasn't about consensus problem. the User:Ahunt has vandalized the added info without any reason: you can see his edit history and read well the talk page to understand. 41.224.105.105 (talk) 21:53, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Its clearly not a question of vandalism. I would urge you to retract any claims to that effect. You may have a valid complaint about the decision to semi-protect instead of full-protect, as semi protection should not be used "to privilege registered users over unregistered users in (valid) content disputes". And arguably you were having a valid content dispute. But if you keep up with the vandalism claims, how wrong you are about that aspect will remain the focus of the discussion. Monty₈₄₅ 21:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I would be reluctant to criticise the semi protection even if the reasoning behind it was perhaps not the best. It looks to me like both the IP and User:Ahunt went pass 3RR. But at time, the IP hadn't left any comments on the talk page (although they had by the time BK dealt with the EW case) so I'd be a bit more willing to give Ahunt a pass on this one since the later edits they reverted were removing sourced content. (Although I probably would have cautioned them.) The IP keeps changing, whether intentionally or not, so let's little chance to stop them via a block so semiprotection is probably justified to ensure there are no further 3RR violations. The other participants can be blocked if they violate 3RR. Nil Einne (talk) 22:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

(EC) Of course it's about consensus. That's how wikipedia operates. You're trying to make changes. Two editors disagree with these changes. You need to come to consensus on whether or not these changes should be made. If you can't come to consensus with only you 3, you should seek help via some means of dispute resolution. Since you are the one making changes rather then the other way around, per WP:BRD you should wait until there is consensus for making the changes (which doesn't mean other editors can just say there's no consensus so no changes without much effort to reach consensus). Although even if you were trying to revert to the stable version, it's still no excuse for edit warring on your part. And calling content dispute vandalism is a sure way to make people think you are in the wrong (although I don't think you were the only one who did that). Nil Einne (talk) 22:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

(EC) Finally you named User:Ahunt at least twice, and linked to them without naming another time in your complaint, but only notified BlackKite of this ANI thread, so you'fe failed to carry out the notifications which both edit heading and the heading of the page clearly tell you to do. Nil Einne (talk) 22:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

the issue is not just about User:Ahunt, I just refered to it to talk about the related issue which is itself related to what User:Black Kite did, no more nor less. 41.224.105.105 (talk) 22:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be missing my point. As the big orange box says when you are editing this page, and the red text says before you edit, you need to notify anyone you bring here for discussion. If there is more than one editor, you need to notify all of them (there are very rare exceptions such as with multiple socks, in those case you should at least mention that you didn't do so). It doesn't matter whether the issue isn't just about one editor, your comment clearly discussed Ahunt's editing and even named them so they should have been notified. Nil Einne (talk) 22:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

To give an example, as I mentioned Ahunt's editing myself in a comment above, I have now made sure they were notified about this discussion. This means you don't have to notify them any more, but please remember to do so in the future. Nil Einne (talk) 22:35, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Kinda strange this IP account's first edit was this AN/I action. Perhaps this is an attempt to get back at Black Kite for something? Not anything conclusive, just saying it is suspicious.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:17, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything that suspicious here. The IP has been edit warring under several IPs on the GNU/Linux naming controversy for a few days now. They took a case to WP:AN/EW which BlackKite closed but didn't go the way the IP wanted. Their complaint is meritless, but it seems fairly unlikely the IP got involved in a dispute on a page in the hope they could bring a EW complaint which would be dealt with by BK, which they could then use to further their grudge with. Rememeber there's no way they could even know BK would be the one to deal with it. I guess they could have tried to time it very carefully, but that seems a bit pointless when there are surely easier ways to further a grudge. Nil Einne (talk) 22:28, 29 May 2015 (UTC)