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→‎German elections: '''Question''': There is an orange {expand} tag for the Campaign section. Is more prose coming to that section?
→‎RD: Helmut Oberlander: + [READY]. I would like to avoid posting my own nom onto MainPage.
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==== RD: Helmut Oberlander ====
==== [READY] RD: Helmut Oberlander ====
{{ITN candidate
{{ITN candidate
| article = Helmut Oberlander<!-- Do not wikilink -->
| article = Helmut Oberlander<!-- Do not wikilink -->

Revision as of 21:07, 27 September 2021

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September 27

September 27, 2021 (2021-09-27) (Monday)

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Sports

Anthony Joshua vs. Oleksandr Usyk

Proposed image
Article: Anthony Joshua vs. Oleksandr Usyk (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In boxing, Oleksandr Usyk (pictured) beats Anthony Joshua to win four world heavyweight championship belts. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In boxing, Oleksandr Usyk (pictured) defeats Anthony Joshua.
News source(s): BBC, Guardian, NYT
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: The coverage indicates that there was a record crowd for this and Usyk's readership is now even greater than Lewis Hamilton's. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:30, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Not ITNR" is not a reason to not post an ITNC nomination. 331dot (talk) 10:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Of course I know that (I've been here long enough), I was simply pointing out that there was no special treatment for the heavyweight category. Black Kite (talk) 10:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Lewis Hamilton thing is the persistent objective to translate ITN into WP:TOP25. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:55, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd not heard of Usyk before so that was just some context. Usyk was actually just the #3 article yesterday – the top two were Squid Game and UFC 266. The latter seems to be the fight of most interest to our readers but it didn't get much love from mainstream media whereas Joshua vs Usyk was covered by the likes of the NYT, as noted above. And, of course, all of these stories are utterly crushing our bottom blurbs which are stale stuff from over a week ago and which just about nobody is reading. That's the real issue here – that ITN wants to be the BOTTOM25. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Viewing figures are not a factor, have not been a factor, will not be a factor, &c &c 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 13:53, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, the pursuit of pageviews is not one of ITN's goals. That is left for WP:TOP25, which operates just like a tabloid newspaper, instead of an encyclopedia. And it's a little pot/kettle when there is opposition to the Ryder Cup article (which logged nearly 1/4 million pageviews over the weekend) because the article doesn't cover Brexit. Clearly disruptive. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 15:21, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. We have posted high profile boxing matches before, and heavyweight is the class that most people pay attention to, but I don't think this fight rises to the profile level needed. As part of the role of ITN is to draw attention to articles, and motivate their improvement, readership should not be a main factor in determining what gets posted. If any user feels that ITN should just be an automated ticker of the most read articles, they may propose that- though I'm not sure why we would want more people to read articles that people are already reading without our help. 331dot (talk) 10:42, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment FWIW, Anthony Joshua's fights seem to rarely have any promotion here in the United States despite the fact he's a unified heavyweight champ. It seems as if British media (such as Talksport, which can be heard in the U.S. through various streaming options) will talk up the fight before it happens, with U.S. media (such as ESPN) only issuing an news alert after the fight has concluded. I don't know why the heavyweight bouts have lost luster here, but it is evident they have (irrespective of how heavyweight boxing is still perceived in the rest of the world). rawmustard (talk) 13:11, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. If there was some manner of record here—an unheard-of title unification or the like—I'd consider it but as nothing out of the ordinary has happened here this is really no different to any other title fight, and I say this as a combat sports fan. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 11:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Given the structure of boxing without any regular championship/playoff structure, such that these title fights can happen at any time, there has to be something significant beyond just title-winning to be an ITN item, and from discussion above, this present fight just seems to be shuffling of the current titles among the top fighters out there. --Masem (t) 14:15, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as above, boxing has many championship fights, often multiple per year. If/when someone fights the belt unification fight with Fury, that match may be ITN-worthy (especially if all the belts are unified). But the importance of this particular match is not significant enough for ITN. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:20, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I would only consider a reunification of all the belts to be noteworthy.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:24, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Bucking the trend here, but surely the heavyweight title is the "big one" when it comes to boxing, the category where anyone can enter and the best person wins irrespective of weight. And, although it's not something I watch myself, this is clearly an event and a sport which attract large interest - Sky Sports charged viewers a one-off £25 to watch it, which gives an indication how much the public wanted to see it. Plus I've been at pubs before when a boxing event is on and they are rammed. As such, I don't think this has less importance than the FA Cup / Superbowl / AFL Grand Final / Wimbledon / take your pick - it's the blue riband event of this sport. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 14:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure the "heavyweight" category is the blue riband for boxing, not any more. It's certainly one of the biggest money-making events in the sport at the moment, but as noted above, it's barely made a scratch in the US (and I think it's obvious why that is right now!), it's not like the golden era with Tyson, Holyfield, Foreman etc. This is very much about the money and I suspect most of the organisers were disappointed they couldn't contrive a draw so they could do another multi-million dollar show. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 15:14, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Just earlier you were arguing that ITN would suffer from stagnation if we did not have a diverse selection of topics, regardless of viewership and regardless of hits. I don't understand why you are singling out boxing for reasons that could easily be applied to a variety of other sports that are ITN/R. WaltCip-(talk) 15:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There's no doubt that heavyweight boxing has lost a great deal of its popularity and viewership since the Tyson v Holyfield days (at least in the US, its prime market). To suggest it's still on a par with Wimbledon in terms of prestige is misleading in my opinion. Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem with that comparison is that those things take place once a year - ad only once. With five separate belts for each weight there theoretically could be a dozen title fights a year in that weight (for example, there are currently at least three weights that have four different title holders). Black Kite (talk) 17:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hakuho to retire

Article: Hakuhō Shō (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Hakuhō Shō, retires as most successful yokozuna in the 250 years of recorded history of sumo. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Hakuhō Shō, the most successful yokozuna in the history of sumo, announces his retirement.
News source(s): Reuters LeFigaro France24JapanTimesBBC, DenverPost NPR NHK (official sumo outlet) SeattleTimes TheAustralian

Nominator's comments: Sumo has a recorded history since 1750s and Hakuho is regarded GOAT in these 250 years. Unlike in other sports, this retirement is not "reversible". Since Reuters has picked it up it is pretty much certain. Not sure when it's best to post this: now, when there is an official announcement, or when he gets his official retirement ceremony (yes sumo has this). 2A02:2F0E:D707:7C00:996D:12AD:F617:108E (talk) 08:25, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment The promotion of wrestlers to yokozuna rank is an ITN/R item, and Hakuhō Shō's promotion was listed in 2015. I would be opposed to a blanket addition of yokozuna retirement to this practice, I think the merits of this item depend on whether Hakuhō Shō is a sufficiently exceptional sportsperson. --LukeSurl t c 08:31, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Neither of those sports have a recorded history of 250 years. 2A02:2F0E:D707:7C00:280C:B852:E0EB:46C8 (talk) 16:30, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Typically with this sort of thing it is the announcement that gets the most attention, not the formal handing in of paperwork or a retirement ceremony. The reports don't indicate that he's just thinking about it, but that he decided to. 331dot (talk) 12:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Reuters' report cites NTV which just attributes anonymous "sources". Neither the subject nor the Sumo Association seems to have made a formal statement. This is just gossip and rumour. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:05, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The JT article says "Yokozuna Hakuho, the most decorated wrestler in sumo history, has decided to call time on his storied career, according to multiple media outlets.". That's pretty definitive, and as with elections, we report what the media reports. 331dot (talk) 13:10, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As an ozeki with the record he holds, there will be the traditional retirement ceremony, this isn't something that's taken lightly or from which there is a comeback. If we want to wait then the ceremony would be a definitive "he has retired" point but also even just the announcement that one will happen should be definitive. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 13:15, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • And in most cases like this, it is the announcement that gets the most attention, not the formal ceremony or handing in of paperwork. If we waited for that, the argument would then be "not in the news" 331dot (talk) 13:19, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The retirement ceremony will not happen for about another year, no sense in waiting that long. The Japanese press has reported that his retirement paperwork has been handed in [1] so no going back on it now. I agree that should be posted at the time of the announcement anyway.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:31, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) I have no issue with posting now; my point is more that the formal nature of sumo means that isn't likely be backpedalled upon like, say, Michael Jordan or George Foreman retiring. Once it's announced it's a fait accompli as far as we're concerned given the ceremonies involved. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 13:32, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Just because he is the GOAT in sumo does not mean we should post his retirement, given that his article does not show how he is relevant beyond the rather niche boundaries of sumo. Chaosquo (talk) 12:52, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Chaosquo What should he be relevant in other than his field to merit posting? 331dot (talk) 13:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because sumo is a niche sport in my opinion, he has to have something other just being a GOAT in sumo for me to justify posting him to the front page. Chaosquo (talk) 13:09, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but every sport is a "niche sport". Very little would be posted if it had to be broadly relevant to global society. 331dot (talk) 13:14, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Is it any more niche than American football or the All-Ireland championship (neither of which I would want to see ignored)? 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 13:15, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're both deliberately misunderstanding me. Niche is mostly defined by viewership. For me, posting a retirement of a athlete should be held to the same standard as a death of a person, and Hakuhō does not meet that bar. Also, all four currently posted items are broadly relevant to global society, either by their own merits or because it was agreed to on ITN/R.
Chaosquo I didn't misunderstand anything. Every sport is only relevant to those that watch it or follow it. 331dot (talk) 13:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sumo is the sport with the longest recorded history where complete lists of champions exists since the 1700s. And cricket is a fairly similarly niche sport yet it gets regularly featured on ITN and got a GOAT nod recently, and doesn't have a recorded history of 250 years. 2A02:2F0E:D707:7C00:280C:B852:E0EB:46C8 (talk) 16:26, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose even with the stance that the retirement is irreversible, we simply just don't post sports retirements. We don't post things like CEO retirements or other influential outside of world leaders (which do involve changing of leadership by necessity). --Masem (t) 13:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    we simply just don't post sports retirements—As pointed out above, we have posted sports retirements before, at least twice. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 13:33, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And I agree posting retirements should be rare; Peyton Manning's retirement was nominated but not posted(correctly) but I think Tom Brady's would merit it(though according to him that won't be for awhile yet). It's usually sports retirements that get the most attention, but others might. 331dot (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • (ec)Support A comparison to a CEO retirement is a little odd, they don't have the iconic status that the greatest sportspeople achieve. His status in sumo is similar to Sachin Tendulkar in cricket which we did post. No question that he is the greatest sumo wrestler of all time and this is being widely reported.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:38, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Subjective editor opinion about significance is something, but what is even more telling is that this does not appear to be so significant of a major sportsman retiring that it actually made world-wide front page news (no mention on Guardian; BBC; NYT, so on so forth). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    BBC covered it as a news item rather than sports item, for some reason, I don't know if that speaks to greater prominence in their view or lesser however. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 14:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Must be pretty awkward to be missing a BBC article from 6 hours ago yet still reason an oppose with that. 2A02:2F0E:D707:7C00:280C:B852:E0EB:46C8 (talk) 15:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I cannot remember when sumo news ever made it to the front headlines in anglophone news. Abcmaxx (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle, oppose on quality would we post the retirement of Messi? Jordan or Gretzky had we been around then? Sumo's a big enough sport that some sumo things are ITN/R, and this guy is regarded as the greatest sumo of all time. And as mentioned above, this is actually a global headline on the BBC right now. However, his article needs some improvement before it makes it to the front page. NorthernFalcon (talk) 16:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Absolutely we would have posted Jordan's retirements - both his first and second one. Jordan was an example of an athlete that had incredible international recognition. The first was especially notable because he was retiring in his prime and he went from there to another major league sport. I'm not so sure about Gretzsky. I'm positive that a Messi nom will make it to ITN without being SNOWed out of the room when he retires. WaltCip-(talk) 16:54, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose I don't think that announcements of retirement made by famous sportspeople should be posted because there are many cases in which people have come out of retirement. Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps, Michael Schumacher and Stephen Hendry are all household names in their respective sports who have returned to competition after announcing retirement.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:20, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kiril Simeonovski It's been noted above that there is no coming back from retiring from sumo. 331dot (talk) 17:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I missed that so I revoke my vote. However, I won't support this announcement of retirement.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

September 26

September 26, 2021 (2021-09-26) (Sunday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

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Politics and elections

Sports

74th Tony Awards

Article: 74th Tony Awards (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ At the Tony Awards, The Inheritance wins Best Play and Moulin Rouge! wins Best Musical. (Post)
News source(s): AP
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Many ITN/R awards noms fail because they're little more than just a table of nominees and winners. This one seems to be more than that (though it may be because its convoluted journey to actually happening at all requires some explanation). Seems like there are no major unsourced sections, but more review is always good. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 05:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment there should be something about the ceremony itself - the articles covers the planning of it, but specifics of the ceremony should be included. --Masem (t) 05:11, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am working on a list of performances and presenters, but can't finish it now—and the source I'm working from seems to have tapped out around the halfway mark of the CBS show. Hopefully it will be updated soon or I'll look elsewhere later.--Sunshineisles2 (talk) 05:31, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's a rubber stamp in terms of notability. It will be posted as long as the article is adequately updated. Usually we are criticized for not enough turnover in postings, so a lot of them potentially ready to go is not a bad thing. 331dot (talk) 16:04, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ITN/R isn't a rubber stamp Um yes, that's exactly the point of ITNR. And ITN rules specifically say we shouldn't just compare with other things, and the comparison makes no sense, because if you wanted to compare, you should compare with what's on ITN (and so old it's not to any other news platform). Joseph2302 (talk) 16:06, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ryder Cup

Article: 2021 Ryder Cup (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In golf, the Ryder Cup concludes with the United States defeating Europe. (Post)
News source(s): ESPN BBC
Credits:

Article needs updating
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: This event is listed at ITNR but (at the moment) the article hasn't been updated enough. It could also be noted that the United States won by the largest margin of victory in the history of the event. -- Calidum 03:11, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2021 Sammarinese abortion referendum

Article: 2021 Sammarinese abortion referendum (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ San Marino becomes one of the last European countries to legalise abortion after a referendum on the issue. (Post)
News source(s): in article
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Significant as one amongst the last European states to legalise this; widely covered in international news.UKFranceUSCanadaSwitzerland RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:54, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Lewis Hamilton

No consensus to post an arbitrary number. Stephen 21:29, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Lewis Hamilton (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Lewis Hamilton (pictured) wins the Russian Grand Prix to become the first driver with 100 Formula One victories. (Post)
News source(s): BBC, CNN, Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: An exceptionally exciting race establishing a historic record. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:26, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) 2021 Swiss same-sex marriage referendum

Consensus has long been against posting same-sex marriage legalization in the first world, and this is no exception.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 14:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2021 Swiss same-sex marriage referendum (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ 64% of Swiss voters vote to legalize same-sex marriage, adoption and reproductive rights in a national referendum in Switzerland. (Post)
News source(s): Swissinfo, Official results by the Federal Chancellery
Credits:
Nominator's comments: By now a somewhat routine topic, but noteworthy in my view because it happened by popular referendum in a traditionally conservative country (the country which introduced women's suffrage as late as 1971).  Sandstein 11:56, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Updated with official results. Sandstein 15:15, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Andrew Davidson If the news does not wait for official results, neither do we. 331dot (talk) 17:57, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We are an encyclopedia, not a forecaster. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:26, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Andrew Davidson We posted Joe Biden winning when the media said he won based on unofficial vote totals(not exit polling), not when it was officially certified by Congress(Jan 6). If you don't want the media to call elections, you will need to take that up with them. Our business is to update articles based on news coverage. No one is forecasting. 331dot (talk) 20:17, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd like to add that this is arguably of more public interest than routine changes of government, the results of routine sporting events or routine aircraft accidents which we regularly post about. Sandstein 15:33, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • To go back to when the Irish referendum was passed in 2015 [2] (under Irish_marriage_referendum) it was due (by consensus) to being the first such same-sex rights by referendum, so this one would not be a first related to same-sex. (The 36th was related to abortion, so I would not consider that here). --Masem (t) 15:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

German elections

Article: 2021 German federal election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the 2021 German federal election, Social Democrats (SPD) come out ahead of the Christian Democrats (CDU/CSU). (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In the 2021 German federal election, Christian Democrats (CDU/CSU) of former Chancellor Angela Merkel slump to historic lows as Olaf Scholz's Social Democrats (SPD) finish ahead.
Alternative blurb II: ​ In the 2021 German federal election, the Social Democrats (SPD) top results with nearly 26% of the vote, and were poised to form a coalition with two or three smaller parties.
Alternative blurb III: ​ In the 2021 German federal election, the Social Democratic Party (SPD) wins the most seats.
News source(s): AP, BBC, Guardian, Reuters, dpa
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 10:21, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose and close shouldn't be nominated as a blank blurb before the results happen, this is an obvious attempt to WP:GAME the system for a nomination credit. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:41, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Please assume good faith. I didn't specify a blurb yet, because I indeed wanted to wait for results or more concrete things to report on. In the future, where would be best place to mention/suggest topics, without knowing yet what the blurb/text should be? This is my first Wikipedia:In the news nomination. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 21:43, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You're not the first person recently to post an election blurb many hours before the results are announced (and there's been similar issues with people nomming sports events before there's a result). It was nothing personal, just seems stupid to allow people to pre-emptively nominate, as the only benefit as I see it is so that someone gets the nomination credit. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Early exit-poll results have SPD, CDU virtually tied. [3] [4] [5] – Sca (talk) 16:52, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • They are exit polls, not an official result, which could take hours or even days. This should be re-nominated when the results are actually confirmed. Rather than encouraging people to nominate articles 7 hours before the polls even shut in the country.... Joseph2302 (talk) 18:25, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't post exit polling, but we don't need to wait for final, official results if the German media calls it. 331dot (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Tense needs to be checked throughout
  2. Orange tag under Campaign, Major issues section
  3. Tables are unsourced in this article: In Parties and candidates, Competing parties and Opinion polls. Some of these are pulled from other articles, where they are referenced, but the standard here should be in-article referencing. The one in Competing parties appears to be wholly WP:OR. The only reference that could cover it conveys only incomplete information. This effectively renders the whole Opinion polls section an {{unreferenced section}}, and if the non-sequitur external links were (deservedly) removed, it would become a section containing no prose at all.
  4. Prose results should be added when they become available.

130.233.213.141 (talk) 05:55, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes, most certainly he would be. And i am not saying alt 3 is totally wrong or misleading. It just is an unusual circumstance that the frontrunner of a major party is not actually the party leader of said party, i would assume. 80.228.131.131 (talk) 13:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, if one were to replace 'led by' with something a bit different that does not suggest he is the leader(which in a way is he despite not being so) then it would be fine to mention Scholz of course. As is it can be nitpicked, is all i am saying. 80.228.131.131 (talk) 13:45, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Global Citizen Live

Article: Global Citizen Live (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Global Citizen Live music festival is held around the world, to pressure action on issues including global poverty, climate change, and COVID-19 vaccines. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The Global Citizen Live music festival is held around the world.
News source(s): ITV
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: If I remember right, we posted Venezuela Aid Live and that was much smaller. Global Citizen holds at least one music festival a year, but this is also by the far the biggest and, perhaps more relevantly, broadest in scope. Kingsif (talk) 00:27, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I can't find anything in the searchable archives where we posted the Venezuela Aid Live (or where it was even proposed as an ITNC. I have doubts that unless the event broke records in fundraising, we would not post something like this. --Masem (t) 00:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, that it seems like the only other concert of even close to comparable size in the ITN era. It didn’t get posted, but Live Aid was like 40 years ago so we can’t compare that. Kingsif (talk) 20:57, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

September 25

September 25, 2021 (2021-09-25) (Saturday)

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(Closed) Montana train derailment

Consensus to post unlikely to develop. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:00, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article: 2021 Montana train derailment (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ An Amtrak passenger train derails near Joplin, Montana, United States killing 3 people. (Post)
News source(s): New York Times, Washington Post
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Passenger derailments in the U.S. are uncommon (only a handful in the past five years) and this one is leading several national news sites. SounderBruce 06:50, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying we should only post transport incidents if they involve some sort of crime (such as a deliberate crash, drink-driving etc.) or there's at least a double-digit death toll or someone notable is directly involved. Otherwise it's just one of many transport accidents. Jim Michael (talk) 16:30, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Well I think the crime question may be a bit of a red herring. It might take some time to establish that any crime had been committed, by which time we'd nominating something like "so-and-so found guilty of such-and-such rail accident"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:42, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on expansion. Transport accidents involving public transport systems like trains or planes that include deaths and injuries are nearly always notable. But the article is currently a bit too short for posting. --Masem (t) 16:03, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No-one's disputing that it's notable enough for an article, but why is it notable enough for ITN? Jim Michael (talk) 16:31, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If it was maybe a couple people injured in a derailment, it would not be appropriate for ITN, but with dozens injures and several dead, it is a major public transit accident. It is a major news item. We would cover this type of event from anywhere in the world as long as the article was up to speed and the event nominated. --Masem (t) 16:36, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
3 dead, not several. It's only a major news item in Montana. If it happened in Latin America, Africa or Asia, it would have no article or a stub article. Jim Michael (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The lack of article creation is not what ITN itself worries about, but nearly any public transit accident with deaths is going to meet GNG-notability guidelines, the article just has to be written. Same with the articles being nominated -that just has to be done once the article is created. We have definitely posted rail accidents like this in Africa and Asia in the past (can't recall any recent L. American ones but we'd post those too). --Masem (t) 17:48, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's relevant, because having an article that's better than a stub is a requirement for posting to ITN. Yes, we've posted train crashes in Africa & Asia, but they had significantly higher death tolls than this one. Jim Michael (talk) 17:58, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed - the death toll of both is too low for ITN. The Stonehaven derailment also killed 3, was nominated, but not posted. Jim Michael (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So 10 dead or a dead sleb? Does that apply only to US rail accident? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:43, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
None of what I said is specific to the US or trains. A very well-known car crash in Paris in 97 had a death toll of 3. Were it an ordinary accident with no-one famous involved, it certainly wouldn't have an article. Jim Michael (talk) 17:54, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Private transit accidents (such as car accidents) are far too common to have articles on, unless they lead to rather large significant tolls or other major investigations (eg Schoharie limousine crash). Public transit accidents, which nearly always have government-lead investigations to understand what happened, etc. on the other hand are nearly always notable, particularly if there were some deaths involved. --Masem (t) 18:00, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And of course there will be outliers. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2021 AFL Grand Final

Article: 2021 AFL Grand Final (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Australian rules football, Melbourne defeat the Western Bulldogs to win the 2021 AFL Grand Final for the first time since 1964. (Post)
News source(s): ABC News
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 Steelkamp (talk) 02:23, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the match summary has been improved now. Steelkamp (talk) 07:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Kamla Bhasin

Article: Kamla Bhasin (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Indian Express
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian women feminist Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 07:44, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Written like an essay, lots of apparent mindreading into her motives and editorial expansion on the themes ("she lamented...she adjudged...really important to her...however her revulsion of capitalism emerges..."). There are footnotes, but that's not all a decent bio needs. And no, I'm not against India, women or feminism, just against flowery rhetoric for any cause. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Release of Michael Spavor and Kovrig / Meng Wanzhou

Article: Detention of Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig are released from detention in China, shortly after Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou's release from house arrest in Canada. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig, who were detained in China since 2018, are released shortly after Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou's release from house arrest in Canada.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Huawei executive Meng Wanzhou is released from house arrest in Canada following a deal with the US Department of Justice, prompting the release of Canadians Michael Spavor and Michael Kovrig, who were detained in China shortly after Meng's arrest in 2018.
News source(s): CBC News, CTV News, BBC, New York Times
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Major news in Canada with international implications, due to the descriptions of the Michaels' detentions as hostage diplomacy and the deterioration of Canada-China relations and US-China relations after the initial arrests. Main article still needs some work though. Yeeno (talk) 🍁 04:28, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Len Ashurst

Article: Len Ashurst (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://safc.com/news/club-news/2021/september/len-ashurst-obituary
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: A footballer who managed several teams. Sahaib3005 (talk) 20:22, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man:, I have now added more sources. Sahaib3005 (talk) 07:14, 27 September 2021 (UTC) Is it good to go now? Sahaib3005 (talk) 18:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

September 24

September 24, 2021 (2021-09-24) (Friday)

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Science and technology

RD: Grey Ruthven, 2nd Earl of Gowrie

Article: Grey Ruthven, 2nd Earl of Gowrie (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/24/lord-gowrie-obituary
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: A Thatcher-era arts minister who quit because he could not afford to live in London on a minister’s salary. This wikibio could use a few more refs. --PFHLai (talk) 04:35, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support, the article is long enough and is sourced properly. Sahaib3005 (talk) 18:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Jitender Mann Gogi

Article: Jitender Mann Gogi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC, Hindustan Times, Times of India, The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: India's most wanted gangster killed in most unique circumstances. Abcmaxx (talk) 21:40, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Sufficiently referenced. Yeeno (talk) 🍁 06:50, 25 September 2021 (UTC) Article has since been expanded, which also means it needs more copyediting before hitting the front page. Yeeno (talk) 🍁 00:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Correction The nominator has written "India's most wanted gangster". This should be "on Delhi police's most-wanted list". BBC DTM (talk) 09:15, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) :-) and :-( sold for $237,500 as NFTs

Consensus to post this will not develop now or in any finite amount of time.--WaltCip-(talk) 12:01, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Emoticon (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ :-) and :-( sold for $237,500 as NFT's (Post)
News source(s): Future zone
Credits:

Article updated
 Count Iblis (talk) 11:17, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There is not sufficient in-depth coverage, in terms of type of sources or length/quality of articles, etc. on this topic to indicate that it is a significant enough story. --Jayron32 11:30, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
:-( as reasoned above. – robertsky (talk) 11:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I feel I want to frown. (sad face) Martinevans123 (talk) 11:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC) Non-fungible tokens are people too, you know!![reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

September 23

September 23, 2021 (2021-09-23) (Thursday)

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RD: Taito Phillip Field

Article: Taito Phillip Field (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/former-minister-taito-phillip-field-has-died-1news-understands
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: He was the first MP in New Zealand of Pacific Island descent. His wikibio is long enough but could use a few more refs. --PFHLai (talk) 18:10, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Humans arrived in North America at least 10,000 years before previously thought

Article: Settlement of the Americas (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ At White Sands National Park in New Mexico, United States, scientists discover human footprints which are about 23,000 years old, revising the generally accepted timeline of the settlement of the Americas by about ten thousand years. (Post)
News source(s): AP, NYT,BBC
Credits:

Article needs updating

Nominator's comments: Article needs a more substantial update. The NYT article quotes an archaeologist who says "this is probably the biggest discovery about the peopling of America in a hundred years". These footprints are more definitive than the 26,000-year-old stone tools discovered in Mexico reported last year which got some skepticism. Davey2116 (talk) 03:04, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment We need a link to the journal where the paper documenting the discovery was published. AP article doesn't mention it and NYT has a paywall. Also, the one-sentence update citing the NYT article with restricted access at the end of the intro is insufficient. One such discovery requires a separate section or at least a paragraph.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:19, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks like the NYT article gives a DOI, which links to https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abg7586. [osunpokeh/talk/contributions] 09:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks. I wasn't able to access the NYT article because of the paywall. Now that this was published in Science, we need a better update in the article.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:45, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As stated in the article, there are several known sites that are pre-Clovis, thus "Humans arrived in North America at least 10,000 years before previously thought" is not really accurate. The significance of these new findings is that they are ... better quality than the other ones. So, let's not make too much of a hype here. --Tone 08:36, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The NYT account is good and there's a more accessible equivalent at the BBC. The footprints in time are more evocative than most such stories and they are excitingly evanescent as erosion is now destroying them so there's a race to glean this evidence before it's gone. Carpe diem. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:03, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The finding implies that humans arrived in North America more than 30,000 years ago (consistent with the dating of the stone tools from Mexico), because the ice sheets would have made it impossible to cross over from Asia into North America later than 30,000 years ago. Count Iblis (talk) 11:00, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. Target article has a one-sentence update in the lead, and the body of the target article does not mention the topic at all. Insufficient update to qualify for a main page notice. If you fix this with a sufficiently in-depth update to the body of an article, consider this vote changed to full support. --Jayron32 11:32, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I thought the Clovis hypothesis was already disproved.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 13:31, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This assertion has been published within the last 24 hours. The scientific community has not had time to respond to this. It is good that it is getting all this attention, because more research in this area needs to be done and actual bodies need to be found. However it also could be a flash in a pan. I do not feel this one instance of evidence is sufficient for Wikipedia to assert humans in New Mexico 23,000 years ago as fact. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 14:31, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That's why it's in the news. When new research results would start to corroborate this and gradually a pile of independent results is built up that's considered to be large enough that it's considered to be proven that humans settled North America much longer ago, then that won't make news headlines. The incremental scientific steps would likely also be considered too technical to merit big stories in the popular press. Count Iblis (talk) 14:59, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    If it is the first paper to publish on a theory that is contrary to one that has otherwise been accepted by numerous other anthropologists, even as a peer reviewed paper in a high quality journal, giving it presumption of being "right" by giving it ITN weight would be improper (I'll point to the current ongoing discussion related to the COVID-19 lab leak theory as evidence of why we don't give weight to one-off peer reviewed theories that go against the grain of long-standing scientific agreement). --Masem (t) 15:06, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It's the job of the major media outlets, like the NYT, WaPo, BBC, etc. to make these editorial decisions on how much coverage to give to certain science stories. We don't have to follow any single such news outlet, but we should use the criteria that a science news story must be published in a high quality peer reviewed journal and must also have significant coverage in the major news outlets. If we deviate from this too much, then we are censoring the news based on our biases. Count Iblis (talk) 15:14, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    But reading the NYT and BBC, their writing emphasis this is a possible result and not firm proof yet. Even a lead researcher on the paper is not certain of the result yet, from the BBC article ""One of the reasons there is so much debate is that there is a real lack of very firm, unequivocal data points. That's what we think we probably have," Prof Matthew Bennett, first author on the paper from Bournemouth University, told BBC News.". We have to be careful here about presenting a paper - which I'm not doubting has grounded scientific method behind it - as the singular source to change a theory that is the subject of debate, based on these sources. This is not censoring news, but upholding SCIRS for all purposes that as an encyclopedia, we're looking to summarize dominate views of the scientific community and this doesn't have it, even if mainstream sources are reporting it. --Masem (t) 15:22, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but it's then for the blurb to convey the correct message. E.g., one can say that "A new finding suggests that humans may have arrived in North America about 10,000 years earlier than previously thought.". Count Iblis (talk) 11:39, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle, haven't evaluated quality. It's a big enough deal that it's worth presenting as a piece of research, rather than established fact; "scientists find evidence", etc. Not going to dig through the archives at the moment, but IIRC we've posted other substantive findings when they occurred. FWIW, this paper isn't based on cutting edge techniques; the methods are pretty basic, it's the data that are interesting. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:34, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, if consensus develops to post, I'd much prefer wording describing how long before the present the evidence is from, rather than trying to spell out the difference between this timeline and whatever was "previously thought", since that's often controversial. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:36, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    When we've posted scientific findings in the past, it is usually because those findings are not in challenge to an established theory or where controversy within the scientific community exists. I know we've posted anthropological findings in the past but as best I recall, when they were found they didn't radically present a change to current theories, only extending farther back when humans occupied a certain reason or had developed certain capabilities. Its clear from the sources that when humans were in the Americans is a subject of debate in the scientific community so we should be a bit more careful on giving weight to one paper. --Masem (t) 15:42, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as written As they say, a lot of people think a lot of things about where and when. I have a hunch about frost giants predating mammoths around Temagami. Regardless, a new paper, even by people who know what they're doing, seems unlikely to change any generally accepted timeline this quickly. In a scientific sense, I mean. Even frost giants from space could seem believable to folks who don't know how magnetic anomalies work. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:48, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – FWIW, to a layman like me this all seems rather iffy and arcane. – Sca (talk) 22:20, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Here, try this. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:49, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Sca, not that accessible or even interesting. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:23, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support One small step for a man, one giant leap for Prof. Matthew Bennett of Bournemouth University. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Not even one of his selected works, nice! InedibleHulk (talk) 22:45, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Brilliant reunion you guys. Great, always a benefit to the encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 23:10, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "You betcha, Miss Piggy", (as they say in Hollywood) Martinevans123 (talk) 23:17, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And as seriously edumacated Wikipedians put it, GARCH! InedibleHulk (talk) 00:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RD: John Elliott

Article: John Elliott (businessman) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.afr.com/wealth/people/buccaneering-businessman-john-elliott-dies-at-79-20210923-p58ucg
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Controversial Australian businessman, former state and federal president of the Liberal Party, and former president of Carlton Football Club. HiLo48 (talk) 11:08, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Quality issues. Giant orange tag, citation problems. Usual problems. --Jayron32 12:24, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Tall el-Hammam and Jericho destruction by an impact event

Consensus is strongly against posting, and the research is deemed outside the mainstream.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:11, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Tall el-Hammam (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Results of the research, according to which an impact event destroyed Tall el-Hammam, as well as Jericho, about 3,600 years ago, possibly inspiring the Biblical story of Sodom and Gomorra, have been published. (Post)
News source(s): The Conversation, SciTechDaily
Credits:

Article updated
 109.252.201.66 (talk) 11:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. The Conversation piece you linked to was written by one of the researchers involved, so not an independent source. There are almost no reports in mainstream media - just churnalism recycling of the press release in some less-than-reputable outlets and some reprintings of the Conversation piece. The only vaguely journalistic report I could find was in Forbes but almost all of that is an interview with another one of the researchers involved, no comments from independent experts. This appears to be a sensational over-interpretation of the archaeological evidence, ideologically motivated to match a story from the Bible. In addition, the article is an orange-tagged stub, doesn't mention the impact idea at all, and attempts to add it have been reverted by multiple page watchers. Modest Genius talk 11:58, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    PS. I've fixed the nomination formatting. Modest Genius talk 12:00, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I can find additional reliable sources written by reputable, main-stream publications, such as Smithsonian Magazine and Nature. The article itself, however, only has a single-sentence update, which seems to me to be insufficient given that we're supposed to be directing people to more information... --Jayron32 12:02, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Your second link is the original paper (in Scientific Reports, a much less prestigious journal published by the Nature Group, not Nature), that's not an independent source. Smithsonian Magazine should be a reliable source but the actual article just repeats claims from the paper and interviews with its authors, including the Conversation piece already mentioned. I'm sure it used to be standard practice to get a comment from one or two independent experts on the subject... I guess science journalists are busy these days. – Joe (talk) 12:12, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspect the reason why there are no high-quality news reports with independent comment is that good science journalists approached independent experts, only to be told the research was rubbish and shouldn't be publicised. They don't run the story in that situation. Modest Genius talk 12:23, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Under-sourced, not in the RS news, polemical, lacking general significance. – Sca (talk) 12:04, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose fringe froth, and Scientific Reports is not Nature (other end of the quality scale, in fact). Alexbrn (talk) 12:06, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • Post-closing comment I seriously object to many of the comments above, rushing to denigrate the announced result. In fact, they are almost certainly BLP violations regarding the researchers involved. For the record, Scientific Reports is not the "other end of the quality scale", it is more of an open-access online spinoff from Nature, which simply doesn't have room for all the top quality science being done, let alone 64 page articles. There is nothing about the paper that suggests WP:FRINGE, and hitting on that, or even the closer's remark that it is outside the "mainstream", is unacceptable. For the record, a much earlier city in the same general area was identified in 2020 (same journal) as wiped out by a similar cosmic airburst (Abu Hureyra, Syria, c. 10800 BCE). This is mainstream science, not fringe. 96.5.122.4 (talk) 16:18, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

September 22

September 22, 2021 (2021-09-22) (Wednesday)

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RD: Abdelkader Bensalah

Article: Abdelkader Bensalah (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/algerian-crisis-interim-president-bensalah-dies-aged-80-2021-09-22/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Head of state of Algeria after Abdelaziz Bouteflika resigned. I hope this goes on RD after the predecessor scrolls off ITN first. The Political career section looks a little thin -- please beef things up if you have the source materials. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 18:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Robert Fyfe

Article: Robert Fyfe (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC, The Sun
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Scottish actor known largely as Howard Sibshaw in Last of the Summer Wine, Cloud Atlas, many other credits. CoatCheck (talk) 19:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2021 Mansfield earthquake

Consensus to post is unlikely to develop. However, a nomination for DYK is worth considering.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:46, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2021 Mansfield earthquake (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ An earthquake hits Australia – the strongest in the state of Victoria for 50 years. (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Major earthquake in Australia, not many dead. The article has a nice graphic showing the epicentre but that's done with a special infobox so I'm not sure how we'd do that here. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:47, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Gabby Petito

It is clear that there is no consensus to post this in any form. This is the third identical close by a third different uninvolved admin and I would suggest very strongly that it needs to be the last one. Black Kite (talk) 13:14, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Death of Gabby Petito (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  The remains of Gabby Petito (pictured) are found and her death is determined as homicide. (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: This was Wikipedia's top read article when it was just a disappearance and now the body has been found... Andrew🐉(talk) 09:25, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Original close

Consensus to post will not form. --Tone 11:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Second close

WP:SNOW. There is zero chance this will be posted to the main page in any format, regardless of the insistence of a very small number of commenters. Leaving it open any longer serves no useful purpose. --Jayron32 13:43, 22 September 2021 (UTC)}}[reply]

  • Oppose The real news was at the time when she disappeared but that ship has sailed. We don't even have a stand-alone article about her, so this cannot be even properly considered for RD.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:37, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose people of no notability get murdered every day, e.g. four people in the UK yesterday. It doesn't mean they are of any encyclopedic value whatsoever, and this is not WP:TOP25 and this story is just another typical example of missing white woman syndrome, stuff of tabloids. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 09:54, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb or RD Per WP:ITNRD, RDs are generally for biographical articles—this is a page dedicated to her killing. As for the blurb, RIP and may justice be served, but let's avoid missing white woman syndrome.—Bagumba (talk) 10:03, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose RD. Article is not a BLP. This could genuinely fit as a blurb, but I'm not sure that I support it even then. I find the above comments and their inclusion in the article to be examples of noxious racism attributed to normal human emotion. Why is there no Dead Black Man Syndrome article?130.233.213.141 (talk) 10:11, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You're welcome to write it. Good luck. WaltCip-(talk) 13:11, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the above. - 2A00:23C7:2B86:9800:655A:2E1F:3D76:8817 (talk) 10:59, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD in principle - OK, so most likely this won't find consensus, but since it was closed very quickly, I am reopening it now because I would like to put a different point across regarding this. So it's clear that Ms Petito is notable only for the killing, and per the WP:NOPAGE guideline, it doesn't seem necessary to have separate pages for her and her death. But on the other hand, I think there's more than enough significant coverage of her life in the recent papers (and covering aspects like her boyfriend, travels and study) to satisfy WP:GNG. The coverage gives her notability in her own right, and the redirect Gabby Petito would never be deleted, only that her bio is covered on another page. As such, she probably ought to be eligible for RD. The same would apply to Malia Obama for example, or Paul Elliott of the Chuckle Brothers. So while the strict rules say only standalone bios are automatically posted, I would support it in this instance as on that basis (other than the obvious quality concerns currently in the article).  — Amakuru (talk) 13:05, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I was really hoping ITN would not give in to our latest bout of MWWS. I see that I am mistaken.--WaltCip-(talk) 13:10, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Subject would not have been notable prior to disappearance and death, unlikely to ever be the subject of a standalone biography per BLP1E. Perhaps a trial and conviction could lead to a mention but even this would be unlikely. I mean no offence by calling it a run-of-the-mill murder but unfortunately that's what it is, and we shouldn't really be adding those to the RD ticker. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 13:16, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't like to resort to comparisons with other stories but it seems that readership/pageviews are part of some peoples' reasoning here. Currently looking at BBC News (even as a non brit it's still a major outlet) Petito's name is not present on their front page at all; another murder victim, not white and blonde, who has no article here, occupies one of their top sidebars. Vice's first story on the case is a specific look at how first nations and black americans are not receiving media coverage in the same circumstances. It's the third murder story down on the Grauniad's front page, nowhere on the Irish News, a footnote for Le Monde ... 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 14:01, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That's why we constantly stress that ITN is not a news ticker, and we are not here to serve up the news that readers may be searching for, but articles that represent quality work on topics that happen to be in the news that thus may be what readers are searching for - that is, the reader angle is secondary over the quality and encylopedic nature that ITN's box serves on the front page. If readers are coming to the front page of WP to find news, they are absolutely in the wrong place, they should be going to BBC or CNN or whatever news outlet of their choice is for that. We're not a newspaper, and its stories like this that are difficult for us to deal with in the first place due to their gossip-y type nature, much less their presence at ITN. --Masem (t) 14:09, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Masem: The WP:ITN page says nothing about a "ticker" and one of the WP:ITN#Purpose is "To help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news.". --LaserLegs (talk) 00:59, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle per Amakuru. I don't get why if non-standalone articles like Ian Brady are eligible for RD, then a standalone article that happens to be titled "Death Of" is not. There is enough coverage here to justify posting.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    To me, it's not so much that it's not a standalone article; but that the examples given here--Brady, Paul Elliott, Malia Obama, etc--were at least notable enough to be the subjects, even if jointly, of articles independent of their deaths. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 13:23, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose This is one of those stupid "person disappears" gossip heavy stories that periodically flood the news media because it creates this sense of mystery about whether a person close to the deceased actually did it. None of the people involved were notable before and only because of the situation around the death created a news whirlwind around the event, but this is very much still in gossip-heavy territory. The persons involved still aren't notable (WP:BLP1E absolutely applies, its why this has to stay an event article, not a bio article), so this can't be an RD. And if it was suggested to be a blurb, I'd strongly oppose that because it is the fact this is the type of bad reporting that seeps into the news media once in a while (this happens in the UK too) that gives undue weight on the plight of one person while everyday people go missing or are killed and don't get any coverage at all. --Masem (t) 13:21, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed. I'm staggered that we even consider it appropriate to have an article on this. It's a complete joke. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 13:22, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose and delete titillating tabloid ephemera per Masem and TRM Bumbubookworm (talk) 13:26, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You're welcome to take it to AfD. I suspect it will be swiftly kept.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:31, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
AfD – Alternative für Deutschland? Why would those rightwingers be interested? – Sca (talk) 14:27, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Apropos swooping, my Halloween costume this year will depict a masked Wiki admin., purely imaginary of course.
– Sca (talk) 13:11, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

September 21

September 21, 2021 (2021-09-21) (Tuesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

RD: Marcia Freedman

Article: Marcia Freedman (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/former-knesset-mk-marcia-freedman-died-at-83-680099
Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: the only openly lesbian woman to have served as a Member of the Knesset --PFHLai (talk) 11:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Melvin Van Peebles

Article: Melvin Van Peebles (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYT
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Looks pretty good at a quick glance, except for the filmography. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:18, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Willie Garson

Article: Willie Garson (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58647331
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 KTC (talk) 16:21, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Court ruling on Litvinenko's poisoning

Article: Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The European Court of Human Rights rules that Russia was responsible for the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko in 2006. (Post)
News source(s): BBC, CNN
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Article is GA but more update is welcome. Per court's ruling, "there was a strong prima facie case that, in poisoning Mr Litvinenko, Mr Lugovoi and Mr Kovtun had been acting as agents of the Russian state" and that it's "beyond reasonable doubt". Brandmeistertalk 11:13, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Support posting this determination of an international body. 331dot (talk) 17:09, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose on update quality; would be full support if more information had been added to the target article. The total added text involves one sentence in the lead and about 3-4 sentences to the body. If this is a major, newsworthy event, surely our article we're going to post to the main page can tell more about it, no? If this is all that can be said on the subject, it isn't newsworthy. If there is more that should be said, but the Wikipedia article isn't including it, then the article is not properly updated. IF this is fixed, consider this a full support. --Jayron32 17:37, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As per Kiril Simeonovski. Sheesh, "who knew", alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose on coverage. While coverage is demonstrated, the sources themselves don't appear to be highlighting this. This event appears nowhere on BBCs frontpage, News nor World sections. This is not featured on the frontpages of: Izvitsia, Pravda nor The Moscow Times, and I would have expected coverage there considering Russia is the major party to this decision. In the US, the NY Times, LA Times and Washington Post have unanimously decided this is not important enough feature. While the article is suitable for the Front Page, I and apparently most RSs, believe it's not something to feature at this juncture.130.233.213.141 (talk) 10:02, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose unless something significant actually comes out of this. Right now, all they've done is blame Russia for something everyone already blamed Russia for- not exactly breaking news. If something e.g. sanctions happens, then it would be ITN-worthy. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:07, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Somehow, it's never the right time to post an ITN story that shines the light on the authoritarian abuses of Putin's regime. Not even when a supranational court makes a major ruling holding Russia responsible. Regarding the IP's comment above: There has been plenty of coverage of this story in Russia, e.g. Pravda [26], TASS[27], RT[28], Moscow Times[29]. And of course NY Times did cover it too[30], as did WSJ [31], NPR[32], CNN[33], etc. Nsk92 (talk) 00:39, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2021 Russian legislative election

Article: 2021 Russian legislative election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the Russian legislative election, the ruling United Russia retains its majority in the State Duma. (Post)
News source(s): BBC, dpa
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: I know it's a totally expected and uninteresting outcome, but it's still an election in the largest country in the world. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • There's never been a consensus way to assess the validity of an election, as Joseph2302 states, and it's ultimately not Wikipedia's job to do so in a blurb that is in WikiVoice. People generally already know how Russia works, and those who don't can read the article for more.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 19:06, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's easy to make clear in a blurb that an election is not free and fair (when, as is the case here, the sources support it). It is our job to have a blurb that does not mislead the reader or rely on the reader having background knowledge that he or she may not have. Neutralitytalk 21:38, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

September 20

September 20, 2021 (2021-09-20) (Monday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

  • Volkswagen submits an offer of €2.5 billion for French car rental firm Europcar. The deal, which would give Volkswagen 66% of Europcar's shares, has been accepted by the board but still needs to be accepted by regulators in France. Volkswagen previously owned Europcar and sold it to French investment firm Eurazeo for €3.3 billion in 2006. (RTE)
  • Twitter agrees to pay $809.5 million to settle a shareholder class action lawsuit that accused the social media company of painting an overly rosy picture of its future. (Bloomberg)

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

[READY] RD: Helmut Oberlander

Article: Helmut Oberlander (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-helmut-oberlander-canadas-last-nazi-era-suspect-dies-at-97/
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: An accused Nazi who got away and died peacefully in Canada. --PFHLai (talk) 10:37, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Sarah Dash

Article: Sarah Dash (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NPR, USA Today, NBC News, AP
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Female artist. Article isn't acceptable at this writing. SusanLesch (talk) 17:01, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2021 Canadian federal election

Proposed image
Article: 2021 Canadian federal election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the Canadian federal election, the ruling Liberal Party, led by Justin Trudeau (pictured), is re-elected to a minority government. (Post)
News source(s): CBC, CTV, AP, BBC, Guardian, Reuters
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: They might still be counting the ballots but every major news organization in Canada has already called the election; the Liberals will win, and they will not win a majority government. Article is currently undergoing heavy updates. NorthernFalcon (talk) 03:29, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Davidson We don't wait for official results to post, because the news does not. We posted Joe Biden as the winner of the presidential election once it was clear he won, not when Congress officially certified the result. We also did not wait for legal challenges to conclude. If the projections are that far off, that would likely be news itself. 331dot (talk) 22:31, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Paul Rusesabagina convicted of terrorism

Issues do not appear to have been resolved; unlikely that a timely consensus for this will develop given more recent nominations. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 14:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Proposed image
Article: Paul Rusesabagina (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Rwanda, Paul Rusesabagina is convicted on terrorism charges for the actions of FLN, the armed wing of his political party. (Post)
News source(s): CNN, NYT, BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Interesting development for the famous hotel manager, including that he was essentially kidnapped by government agents in order to be tried. Human rights groups are calling this a show trial. Davey2116 (talk) 14:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning oppose - the guy was arrested last year, claiming he was abducted by the Rwandan government, and he's been an outspoken critic of said government for some time. I don't regard today's development as at all unexpected, to be honest; the Rwandan government has a bit of a reputation with Amnesty and Human Rights Watch and so on, for locking up political opponents.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:46, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support It's like the case of Raman Pratasevich which we posted in May. And it's certainly in the news -- I was listening to a report on the radio just now. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:02, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support but oppose blurb as written. Paul Rusesabagina is considered a political prisoner by the European Union, and his arrest was essentially the same thing as Roman Protasevich, as both involved hijacking a flight. I think the high-profile nature of this arrest makes this noteworthy enough for ITN. However, political neutrality in a blurb will be difficult to achieve. To fail to mention that his conviction was controversial is to give legitimacy to the Rwandan regime's show trial. On the other hand, to do the opposite would be biased in favour of the west. A good, neutral blurb that mentions the controversial aspects of the trial is best here. NorthernFalcon (talk) 18:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose article which is a BLP is under-referenced, amongst other issues. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 18:17, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose sourcing is lacking and also quite a chunk of refs are to his autobiography Bumbubookworm (talk) 02:32, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Northern line extension to Battersea

Consensus to post will not develop.—Bagumba (talk) 08:54, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Northern line extension to Battersea (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ London opens its first tube extension this century, serving Battersea Power Station (pictured). (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The London Underground opens an extension to Battersea
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: This is the most popular news story on BBC News currently. I know this because they have a Most Read sidebar which is a good way to find the best stories. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:56, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if it's truly ICONIC, it's a shoo-in. Has the International Iconography Commissiion certified this status?
– Sca (talk) 12:44, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
London Underground is a Level 4 Vital article. That has to count for something, right? WaltCip-(talk) 12:58, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you'd have to ask the three or four people who own run the vital articles "project"... The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 13:00, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I guess a link to Level 4 Vital article might help to get a blurb on Main page. But if the proposed bold link was to a new article for man spills another cup of coffee on the Northern Line, maybe not. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:24, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It depends on how hot the coffee is. WaltCip-(talk) 17:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support. It's a fairly underwhelming story but we do need new blurbs and the article is in good shape. I've added an altblurb - it's not appropriate to use an image of the power station to illustrate a blurb about a railway line that was built decades later, nor to WP:EGG link to the tube station and call it the power station. Modest Genius talk 11:09, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I can't recall the last infrastructure blurb we posted for comparison, but an extension to an already-extensive network feels far less groundbreaking than where the bar, at least on gut instinct, should be—something on the scale of the Øresund Bridge would probably merit inclusion but not this, for me. 𝄠ʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 11:16, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed - a good example of a metro/subway in the news would be something like "an new extension to the XYZ Subway has made it the largest network in the world" or "first Metro in region ZYX opened today" Turini2 (talk) 11:19, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose Personally a big fan of this extension - I did a big 5x expansion on this article in the last 2 weeks or so. But an extension to the London Underground surely isn't one of the most important news stories around. Isn't the Canadian federal election today? Turini2 (talk) 11:17, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Per TRM. Not even middling whelming. – Sca (talk) 12:50, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose being probably more interesting than gaelic football isn't a reason to post this(we should judge on ITN-worthiness rather than comparison to other articles). If this were an extension to any other country's large metro system, don't imagine we'd consider posting- Paris is planning 4 whole new lines in the next few years, NYC had multiple extensions in last few year, and I doubt anyone would consider nominating any of these for ITN. Outside of London/England, there is almost no coverage of this event, and the coverage inside England shows this isn't an "earth-shattering" event. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:58, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Good for Londoners but irrelevant for the rest. I don't see how this affects 99.9 per cent of the world population living outside of the city, and the benefits measured in 20,000 new homes and 25,000 new jobs can't change my opinion. The article is in excellent shape, though.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't remember to have ever supported posting the completion of an infrastructure project, and that would probably happen if the final product has the distinction of being 'largest', 'longest', 'tallest' or 'deepest'. In this case, nothing makes this extension, not a completely new project, even close to it. Beijing and Shanghai have rapid transit systems with 13 times the total annual ridership of the London Underground, but we didn't even consider posting their most recent expansions a couple of months ago. Similar extensions with much greater impact are being carried out around the world all the time.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's probably worthwhile to point out that (nothing wrong with this) WP has a number of railfans here that have worked to extensive build out articles on the UK rail system to this level of depth that doesn't happen in other systems. So that this new line has a well developed article is of little surprise while similar expansions elsewhere probably got one or two sentences at most. But that's why we're trying to judge on the overall impact here, and the expansion of one metro public transit system has rather limited world impact. --Masem (t) 14:30, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The newest NY subway thing was Ida or amongst subway-only things, the yearlong partial L shutdown to repair hurricane damage which wasn't posted. Besides weather stuff it was a replacement station (which was 20m from Twin Towers, far closer than any other subway, crushed by their east wall(s) and was the final train thing to return to normal), it was closed @ 6 opposed no support. The newest besides that was the aforementioned phase 1 of the second East Side Line which had been vaporware for 100 years, relieved massive overcrowding of the East Side Line (25% of the rides in like 4-5% of the miles) and wasn't posted. The newest thing before that wasn't nominated and allowed NYC's 3rd biggest skyscraper forest+3rd tallest building to be built in a subwayless area by connecting it to the busiest subway nexus and completing its 8-way intersection of subways (9-ways including "double bonds"). The new thing before that was an all-new 2009 station that replaced an old one in the same location (meh) and wasn't nominated. The new thing before that was a short stationless bypass cause the wealthiest Queens line was approaching capacity of 2,000 adults/train, ~2 trains/minute and this was cheaper than becoming Earth's first 6-lane subway (hexuple-track/dodecuple-rail). ITN didn't exist then (2001, the first new subway thing since 1989). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Perm State University shooting

Consensus will not develop to post.  – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 23:26, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Perm State University shooting (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ At least six people are killed when a gunman opened fire at a university in the Russian city of Perm. (Post)
News source(s): BBC, AP, Guardian
Credits:

Article needs updating
Nominator's comments: Developing. Blurb will be updated as more news pours in. Sherenk1 (talk) 08:25, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yet very few of those resulted in deaths. We already posted a school shooting in a Russian school just 4 months ago. --Rockstone[Send me a message!] 10:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
MissingThePoint.com. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 11:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack (8 dead), Yeshivat Otniel shooting (4 dead), Ma'alot massacre ("When they broke into the classroom where the students were being held, Haribi grabbed a student, Gabi Amsalem, and held him at gunpoint on the floor. Rahim was shot dead but Linou managed to reach the classroom, grab several magazines from the teacher's desk and reload his weapon. He then sprayed the students with machinegun fire and tossed grenades out the window. When a burst of fire broke his left wrist, he threw two grenades at a group of girls huddled on the floor. Several students leaped from the windows to the ground, some ten feet below."), Avivim school bus bombing (3 gun deaths in school bus), Shaar HaNegev school bus attack (27kg missile, 2kg tube). Likely incomplete, with 57 times more population this is equal to 285 similar school gunmen attacks since 1970 in USA or 5-6 per year. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:10, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All of this is true, and yet has no bearing on the current discussion. Naming random other school shootings neither a) produces news coverage about this school shooting or b) produces quality, referenced prose in the Wikipedia article about this school shooting. Those are literally the only things we need to assess in order to decide whether or not to post this on Wikipedia's main page. There's no need to discuss other matters. --Jayron32 16:16, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake, wrong indent. Was giving counterexample to "School shootings anywhere on the planet except for one notable exception are incredibly rare.". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:34, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Still not actually relevant to the discussion on this page, which is where we are trying to decide a) are reliable news outlets covering the story in an appropriately in-depth way and b) is the article quality good enough. --Jayron32 16:49, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the counter-examples. The rarity of them in locations other than those which are almost literally warzones is more than amply exemplified by your list. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 18:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So can you say except warzones and near-warzones when you say we're the only ones? Thanks. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Peruse the list; the last school shooting in the United States that killed at least 6 people was the Santa Fe High School shooting in 2018. Before this shooting, the last school shooting in Russia that killed at least 6 people was the Kazan school shooting in May of this year. How is a school shooting which kills 6 people notable in Russia but not in the US? -- Rockstone[Send me a message!] 22:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Because literally of the sheer volume of school shootings. If you have a hundred a year, then you'd statistically expect one of them to be be bad. If you have two per year, or like in the UK, one per decade, you report them. They're unusual, anomalous events. School shootings in the US are just part of everyday life, regardless of the outcome. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 22:17, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
6 people is 0.0000041% of the population in Russia. That's equivalent to 13.628 people in the USA! And of course, everyone in the US has a gun. Several, I think. Russians just have those old Soviet guns that don't work very well. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:21, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes everyone, even premature babies. Except me, I must be the only one. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if his motive was personal rather than ideological, which seems likely since he was a student there, the import of the event would seem somewhat less weighty. (My personal choice: Being blown away by a jilted ex-lover, if I had one. Alas...) – Sca (talk) 15:40, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think you can get them ready jilted (for small extra fee). Martinevans123 (talk) 16:21, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support pending article expansion. Article is a bit on the short side, would be full support if it were more fleshed out, but it's long enough for the main page and fully referenced, IMHO. The topic is receiving news coverage, so it passes the significance criteria as well. --Jayron32 15:22, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose because a killing with a single-figure death toll that doesn't have an ideological motive is usually not important enough to post. Deliberate killings of this size happen many times every year. Jim Michael (talk) 17:04, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I mean in the world as a whole. They're far more common in some places than others, but its relative rarity doesn't make it notable enough to post. Jim Michael (talk) 17:43, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah right. I thought you meant in Russia (where it would be rare). Obviously a shooting like this would be inherently non-notable in the US. Black Kite (talk) 18:04, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Where are all the "other" countries with all these regular school shootings please? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 18:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Jim Michael sorry, perhaps you missed this, where are all these "many times a year" school shootings happening? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:28, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So by this logic, we will post the first school shooting for each of 200 sovereign states, as they are rare in that state. And each state gets one train derailment, and a flood, a military coup...what else? A common place event does not become notable because it's been awhile since it happened here. GreatCaesarsGhost 21:38, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"its relative rarity doesn't make it notable enough to post." this is literally the best thing I've ever read at ITN. It supersedes anything I've ever read before. By an absolute mile. I guess this was written ironically, but good grief, some of us reading this would think this was utterly insane. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 21:44, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I said killings with a similar death toll happen many times a year in the world - I didn't narrow the scope to school shootings. If the same number of people were killed in a house or bar anywhere in the world, it's unlikely it would have an article & even less likely to to be nominated. Twenty people killed at any type of location by any method in Maiduguri, Mogadishu or Parachinar would be ignored by the vast majority. Its tiny stub article would have no chance of being posted. Jim Michael (talk) 22:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well your "scope" is irrelevant to this context then. This was a school shooting. And yes, we know it happens all the time in the US. It happens, but rarely, anywhere else in the world. It's a complex equation, I know, but when I'm looking at the context of a news story, it involves context, and for school shootings, if it's not in the US, then it's almost certainly significant. If it's in the US, then it's business as usual, unless the death toll gets to maybe more than 20 or 30. I think that's just standard here. And suggesting that "Twenty people killed at any type of location by any method in Maiduguri, Mogadishu or Parachinar would be ignored by the vast majority" is utterly missing the point. It's context that's important. And the ignorance of the "vast majority" is not something we should be using as a gauge against which we decide what is and what is not of encyclopedic value. The "vast majority" of readers live in a country where gun crime is accepted and a daily routine, where kids are taught how to deal with "active shooters" etc. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:19, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have any evidence backing your claim that the vast majority of (English language) Wikipedia readers live in the US? Jim Michael (talk) 18:20, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You first, do you have a shred of evidence that "Twenty people killed at any type of location by any method in Maiduguri, Mogadishu or Parachinar would be ignored by the vast majority"? Let's see evidence for that and then we can go on and discuss that Ameuricans are the most likely readers of Wikipedia. After you. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 18:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mass murders in those cities are very common. Many of them don't have articles & most of those that have articles are short, with few editors. Most aren't nominated for ITN & when they are they're typically quickly rejected. The July 2021 Baghdad bombing, which had a death toll of 30 plus the bomber, was rejected at ITN & has since been turned into a redirect. Jim Michael (talk) 12:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Last time I checked a long time ago only 46% of readers were American and it was decreasing. That's not a vast majority or even a majority at all. Also I've never been taught active shooter survival ideas at school or had shooter drills or over-the-top wargames with 14-year old girls with a fake gun wound on their head and I'm a millennial, I think that's a modern thing. I did have monthly drills of walking out of the building to practice combustion escape (even if the building is brick) and some places have earthquake and/or tornado drills. In Florida and the Gulf alligators are almost everywhere and can even kill grownups so they teach primary schoolers to zig-zag if one's trying to eat you. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:36, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
46% would be a massive majority ahead of all other demographics. Wow. Thanks for letting us know that. 22:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Being the biggest minority doesn't make Americans a majority, it makes them a plurality. But I think I remember something about majority having a different meaning in England now so this could just be American English difference. USA has a massive plurality cause it got lucky several times: 1. In 1781-87ish, USA could've split into 2 or more countries if the "distant national capitals are bad" sentiment had turned on the US capital more but after Shay's Rebellion a large group of men haggled like fuck all summer till they could agree on a constitution of (vaguely) unleavable union that a majority of each state might ratify (it took 3 years for state 13 to ratify, 1 year before the the weird right to keep+bear arms shall not be infringed law was added). 2. The leader of the 13 colonies' rebellion AKA POTUS 1 was willing to (and did) send an army to the Whiskey Rebellion to enforce this hypernew constitution even though to be honest it was deeply unfair for so much of government funding to be whiskey tax when for mountain transport reasons maize whiskey was the main "export" of the hinterland which is why they rebelled. Imagine if he left them alone, separatists would be emboldened and USA could be tiny now. Pittsburgh could've been a national capital. 3. Napoleon offered land to POTUS #3 (the size of 16 Englands) for slightly more than he was willing to pay for just the port of the land but he almost turned it down cause the Constitution explicitly allowed treaties and helping trade but didn't explicitly mention enlarging the country. This is your brain on right-wingism. 4. An earlier Civil War would've likely succeeded if the North/DC didn't back down several times. The North's Industrial Revolution and population boom was decades behind Britain so the slave states could've become their own country if they rebelled soon enough. Who knows if the western states would even be USA now if the east was like a DMZ? On the other hand Europe doesn't want to fuse into a country which is the only thing keeping our "majority" massive. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:00, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I once heard it said that two thirds of readers are American. Or perhaps it was two thirds of editors? I have no idea of the truth of it, anyway, so this is a pointless comment, but that would be in keeping with quite a bit of this thread.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:07, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, what? Of course it would. For example, a earthquake in the UK that killed 20 people would be notable because it literally hasn't happened before. Black Kite (talk) 21:50, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In 1931 one woman in Hull had a heart attack. And Dr. Crippen's head fell off at Madame Tussauds in London. Does that count at all? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, a coup, even in a country where they happen often, is inherently notable. -- Rockstone[Send me a message!] 22:02, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Successful coups (but not attempts) should be posted. Jim Michael (talk) 22:23, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
More incredible opinions. If there was an attempted coup in the US (!!) it should probably be posted, right? Or in the UK, or France or Germany or Switzerland? Are you being serious? I think we've heard enough from you about these kinds of things to judge your opinion going forward..... The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:21, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only seeing 6100 bytes of readable prose, we're usually looking for around 15000 to get out of stub range. --Masem (t) 13:25, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The readable prose tally is currently 1794 according to the tool I use, with 1500 being the threshold at which we usually no longer consider it a stub. The article is still sorely lacking in detail of the event, however, so I wouldn't advocate posting at this stage.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:37, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm now about 10 times more or less confused than before. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:18, 21 September 2021 (UTC) [reply]
If it's a shrink you need, I can recommend Dr. Pangloss He even made me feel good about DYK.
– Sca (talk) 22:23, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Beyond a stub, and there may not be much else to add at the moment. Event is more notable than some of the other shootings we have posted in recent times. Hrodvarsson (talk) 19:47, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Still less than 400 WORDS (as opposed to meaningless bytes) – no longer a stub, but pretty thin for a supposed internationally significant event (which it ain't, IMO). And what's up with "at least" – don't the Russians know how many were killed? Not good enough. – Sca (talk) 22:16, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The article says six; the proposed blurb just needs to be modified. Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:02, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I don't give a flying fuck what country it happened in, so spare me the discourse. Shootings with such small death tolls are not noteworthy without something more to it. For example, if it were a terrorist attack or motivated by racism or sexism then it might be noteworthy. But there's nothing like that here. Mlb96 (talk) 01:29, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree; without an ideology, this isn't more important than the many other mass murders this year. Jim Michael (talk) 12:08, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

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