Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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COI editing and personal attacks on Democracy & Nature and Talk:Democracy & Nature

This article is mainly edited by a few editors who only edit this article and two related ones (Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos). Although I have tried to explain clearly what problems I see with the article as it currently stands, I continue to be accused of editing with a political bias by John sargis (as well as an IP editor, 165.120.27.172, but I assume that is the same person who forgot to log in). I consider this a personal attack and have notified the editor of this. This was again answered with a personal attack. The editor's user page and talk page show that this person has a history of such attacks. The editor also has a COI with this article, having published himself in this journal several times (e.g., [1] and [2]). In view of these repeated attacks and persistent failure to AGF, perhaps some editor here can have a look. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 12:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• You assume wrong what you think is my IP address. It is not me. You should be sure about your "facts" before making veiled presumptions against me. After I repeatedly showed you the irregularities about the way wiki rules are applied in terms of what you see as "problems" with the article, you blame me for attacking you. I am pointing out the foolish consistencies in the way the rules are applied in that there are many other articles that suffer from the same "rule", but it seems they only apply to D&N, even after it has been pointed out to you those other articles. If there are wiki rules that are “double standards” and an administrator enforces them, then logic dictates that the administrator is biased. This is not a personal attack. Furthermore, I do question your motives since if you think I did attack you personally, you threatened to take me to the WP:ANI board to get me banned. I question your motives, because before you post a grievance against a user with the board, you must FIRST try to resolve the issue on my talk page. Which you did not do. Thus you are harassing me. And I am asking now that an administrator can have a look for proof at my talk page. Thanks. John sargis (talk) 19:15, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• The issue was discussed at Talk:Democracy & Nature, so there was no need to start yet another discussion on your talk page. And apparently there are situations where you do want to use those darned Wikipedia rules... --Randykitty (talk) 19:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry, but again as I have repeated, I want the rules to be evenly applied, which you did not do. The rule says that you go to my talk page to iron out the personal issue(s) and not at the article page which is inappropriate. You bypassed and undercut the rule so that you could preemptively get me banned by going immediately to the administrators. This is harassment. So again a foolish consistency underscores how you use or not use wiki rules for your convenience. John sargis (talk) 20:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
• Your insinuation, Randykitty, is I am hypocritical when you say, “apparently there are situations where you do want those darned Wikipedia rules.” implying I am biased is a personal attack. I replied, above, I want the rules applied evenly, but yet you are insisting not to use them evenly as evidenced not only in your discussions here and especially at your post at 19:36 (UTC) above, but also at D&N page where last year you tried the same editorial tactics with no success of deletion—and now you are at it again. It is difficult for it not come to mind that you have a political bias, but I do not know. John sargis (talk) 21:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oh man... Could somebody not involved please have a look at this? Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 08:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• And ongoing PA by another editor, Panlis, who exclusively edits topics related to the ones mentioned above. Given the vehemence and the accusations, I feel almost like I am dealing with a sect here. --Randykitty (talk) 12:32, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• User Randykitty, as demonstrated in Talk:Democracy & Nature, has consistently tried to impose his way of editing the article, by adding repeatedly tags and requests for citations, that were effectively shown to him that are at least irrelevant to the article and constituted the -to my mind as well- justifiable assumption that he indeed maintains a bias toward the entry. His recurrent editing "spree" has been accompanied by his unwillingness to answer to documented and logical questions brought to his attention in the Talk Page. So the assumption of his maintaining a bias towards the article does not constitute a Personal Attack, as so easily and conveniently Randykitty accuses me and other editors of, and this is because all criticizing was aimed at his activity in the entry, accompanied by documented and -to a decent degree- laborious argumentation on his recurrent and lately almost totally exorbitant actions showcased in the Talk Page. And this is particularly so, when in the meanwhile and while he accused the other editors, I tried to contribute to the article by particularly addressing his demands for citations, from the moment they seemed somehow sensible. At the same time, the only thing Randykitty did was mainly deleting, and adding tags!..

Then, Randykitty didn't take the time to activate the Dispute Resolution procedure, before bringing the matter to the Administrators' board. On the contrary he accuses the other editors involved in the discussion, with a striking nerve, of being a "sect"! But this is to say easily when an editor is short of answers to the points raised by me or anybody else who out of necessity does not spend his life in checking wiki entries and he resorts to the facile ‘accusation’ that "I exclusively edit topics related to the ones mentioned above”. But why specialist knowledge on a topic is something wrong when editing an article in an encyclopedia and in Wikipedia, when of course it's not a field for advocacy? Yes, I do have specialist knowledge on the topic and this is why I take party on discussions related to it rather than on brain cancer surgery. Unless of course, according to Wikipedia rules, people with no obvious knowledge on a topic or on the meaning or the function of a theoretical journal should have more say on any topic, as long as they have memorized some wiki rules. Of course rules are needed but the issue is how (as every rule) are interpreted. Panlis (talk) 07:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Do we really need to give any more rope to this group maintaining a walled garden, per WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, and WP:NPA. --Randykitty (talk) 08:22, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Randykitty increasingly acts in -to say the very least- bad faith and total unwillingness to follow any gradual protocol required by Wikipedia before dropping in the row and without any documented reply his "allegations" in this board. Now he demonstrates once again his blatant unwillingness to take part in the discussion in the Democracy & Nature Talk Page and to reply to the concrete arguments posed against his theses, when at the same time, he continues adding tags that have been demonstrated to him to be at best irrelevant and at worst, totally biased as [I (and other editors) have tried to prove here, without any at all, further participation to the dialogue by this obviously Disruptive Editor. It's also becoming now more than clear that the same user uses his "credentials" of thousands of edits in articles and of being an administrator, so as not only to impose his unacceptable editing methods to the D&N entry, despite my and other editors' best attempts to concretely and in detail show his inconsistency (and, ultimately), bias in this case, but to also throw mud against all other editors with whom he simply does not agree with: By putting at the venture labels on them of the sort of "WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:NPA" etc..

And all this when

(a) positive response to some of his sensible demands was accurately applied to the entry,

(b) his blatant inconsistencies were meticulously shown with specific examples and passages in the Talk Page, without him caring to give any concrete reply to my and others' argumentation in the Talk Page,

(c) he jumped without any constraint to blame me and other editors of WP:COI, WP:SOAP, WP:NPA etc., without any effort on his part to follow a normal procedure of the many available in WP:DR and elsewhere before resorting to these accusations and before bringing me and others to the WP:ANI, and finally,

(d) he continues even at this moment his disruptive editing and undocumented reverses without giving any explanation at all in the talk page for this, while at the same time he has the "nerve" of accusing me (with the non-argument) of "not addressing the underlying problems" (!), something that I tried to do in -I think- a decently laborious and well-documented attempt! Hence Randykitty's action that suits to his case could also be showcased vividly in the following clear passages from WP:DISRUPTSIGNS:

"A disruptive editor is an editor who exhibits tendencies such as the following: (...)

1. Is tendentious: continues editing an article or group of articles in pursuit of a certain point for an extended time despite opposition from other editors. Tendentious editing does not consist only of adding material; some tendentious editors engage in disruptive deletions as well. An example is repeated deletion of reliable sources posted by other editors." (...)
2. Engages in "disruptive cite-tagging"; adds unjustified {{citation needed}} tags to an article when the content tagged is already sourced, uses such tags to suggest that properly sourced article content is questionable." (...)

Panlis (talk) 13:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

• This thread had been archived. I have restored it in hope of solliciting some input about this case of SPA editors owning some articles. --Randykitty (talk) 08:32, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• Having completely lost the argument, Randykitty now returns (as was fully expected of him!) with yet another wp rule: owning. However, once again, he simply distorts another wp rule. He has no evidence whatsoever to support his new allegation apart from the fact that the editors who tried to make sense of his multiple tagging (like John Sargis and Panlis) were involved before in exchanges related to D&N and related entries. However, the owning rule itself stresses that “It is quite reasonable to take an interest in an article on a topic you care about − perhaps you are an expert” and Panlis himself admitted his special knowledge on the topic. Randykitty has to show convincingly that “this watchfulness has become possessiveness” and he NEVER MANAGED TO DO SO, particularly as the editors involved (as well as myself) tried repeatedly to improve the entry following those of Randykitty’s suggestions which were specific enough and looked reasonable,e.g. providing the citations and the links to references he asked for. I also supposed that as long as he does not just put tags all around, without usually giving concrete advice on what has to be done, the editors already involved –and hopefully others as well—would continue helping to improve the entry. Unless of course his real aim is not to improve the entry but simply to have it deleted, after his failed attempt for deletion last year.165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• Still no comments from uninvolved editors. --Randykitty (talk) 08:25, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
• According to Randykitty’s “interpretation” of wp rules, all comments from ‘involved’ editors can easily be dismissed or ignored, irrespective of the quality of the arguments concerned, just because these editors are interested in a particular topic on which they happen to have some knowledge. On the other hand, his own heavy involvement in this particular entry in the past when he tried (and failed) to have it deleted, does not matter simply because he has managed to make 62,000 edits in the short period of 2 years and 10 months - obviously working on a full-time basis - i.e. over 60 edits per day, apart from starting over 60 new entries!165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:55, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
• After the personal attacks, we now progress to taunting. Directly ON Ani... --Randykitty (talk) 14:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
• I am not personally attacking or taunting anybody and that was obviously not my intention. I simply stated some OBVIOUS FACTS and Randykitty, instead of trying to dispute them, resorts to his familiar tactics of playing the victim.165.120.27.172 (talk) 15:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• I really need not to "dispute" anything you and the other editors above have been writing. It is there for everybody to see and what is true of it is equally simple to see. Eventually, some uninvolved editors will get around to this and wade through the wall of accusations that has been thrown up above and, if they'll find that you are correct, I'll be swiftly desyssopped and indefinitely blocked from editing here. --Randykitty (talk) 06:47, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• Randykitty, please avoid this "self-defeating" rhetoric. The way you set the demand, i.e. for some non-involved users to intervene in order to clarify if it's that "we" ("the sect" according to your -at least, humiliating-, accusation about me and other editors of the Democracy & Nature entry) "are correct", something meaning that you will have to be "swiftly desyssopped and indefinitely blocked from editing here" (!) is at least disorienting for any user that happens to see this debate. No one asked or suggested such a "response", which shows that you probably have personalized the whole debate. In fact no one asked anything from you, apart from the logical need to show where you believe the editors are mistaken in the first place as regards the editing of the aforementioned entries, particularly when they explicitly claimed that their intention was not Personal Attacking and that they tried to a more or less degree to address your sensible "demands" for citations etc.. On the other hand, you brought two editors before this Board, with a (at least slanderous against me) row of accusations, when, as I tried to show above and in the Democracy & Nature entry's Talk Page, it' s your mistake that you haven't tried to reply to any of the significant arguments raised against your activity, (by abstaining from any dialogue in the entry's Talk Page despite my and others' effort for precise argumentation) and secondly you continued to bypass the fact that significant effort has been in the making to collectively improve the article, even by newer editors like Niceguyedc and Fusedmilk. You didn't even TRY to follow a Dispute Resolution procedure but you jumped directly into here when you saw that not all your demands would be "fulfilled"...Panlis (talk) 15:55, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

• Personal attacks don't go to dispute resolution, they go to ANI. Simple. --Randykitty (talk) 09:06, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• You are wrong. This is from the WP:NPA.

"Recurring, non-disruptive personal attacks that do not stop after reasoned requests to cease can be resolved through dispute resolution and third opinions. In most circumstances, problems with personal attacks can be resolved if editors work together and focus on content, and immediate administrator action is not required." (my emphasis). And the bold is what you don't try to do but you bring editors in this board - avoiding an attempt to reply to specific arguments as regards the entry's content in the entry's Talk Page and above.Panlis (talk) 22:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment from uninvolved editor I see an assumption of bad faith towards Randykitty by John sargis, Panlis and the IP (with sock/meatpuppetry always a possibility) which is unusual even by WP standards. Miniapolis 22:10, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Could I read a reasoning for the conclusion that you see "an assumption of bad faith towards Randykitty by John sargis, Panlis and the IP (with sock/meatpuppetry always a possibility) which is unusual even by WP standards." ?Panlis (talk) 22:33, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• It is very easy (and convenient too!) for somebody to declare himself ‘uninvolved editor’ and then to go on slandering other editors like me as sockpuppets etc mainly because I am an IP address editor. However, I thought that according to WP rules “the treatment of IP address editors as second-class editors is unacceptable”. If this rule is not valid anymore please let me know and I will stop immediately taking part in the discussion. I think that good or bad faith should be assessed on the basis of the arguments offered not on the basis of suspicions and offering no arguments at all does not help anybody in drawing conclusions about the good faith of other editors. Quite the opposite.165.120.27.172 (talk) 00:15, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
• Randykitty accused me and an editor using an IP address (read first two posts of this thread), of claiming political bias against him in which which he assumes the IP editor is me and thus he reported me to “the editor”. I told him he is assuming wrong. It is not my IP address. Thus by notifying the editor he harassed me for no real reason, because he does not show evidence that it is my IP address and he never first tried to resolve the issue on my talk page, but bypassed that wiki rule to file a grievance against me. I do not see how you can claim bad faith on my part, when it was Randykitty who harassed and threatened me. He replies that there is “no need to start yet another discussion on your talk page” (where personal issues are resolved). And “apparently there are situations where you do want to use those darned Wikipedia rules.” Thus there is proof that he uses the wiki rules when it is convenient for him, and yet he accuses me that I want wiki rules to be used only for some situations. But if you look at my replies, I said that I want the wiki rules “evenly applied”, which is obvious by reading the thread above. Thank you. John sargis (talk) 01:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
• I think the editing/behavior pattern of this group of editors is quite clear. They are not here to create a neutral encyclopedia, but to push an agenda. Anybody interfering with that gets hit with a barrage of accusations and wikilawyering. Trying to improve one of "their" articles is hit by demands that other articles that have similar deficits get cleaned up first because if you don't do that, you have a political bias. This all started with an effort by me to make the article on the (borderline notable) journal Democracy & Nature compliant with our journal article writing guide. Sargis, as a former contributor to this journal, obviously has a conflict of interest here, but that doesn't hold them back spouting a stream of accusations in my direction. And as demonstrated above, anybody who dares say that this is not the way things are done here, clearly must be biased against them, too. I think that, at the least, some topic bans are in order here. --Randykitty (talk) 09:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Sargis is more than a former contributor, he's the assistant editor. It wouldn't be surprising if this group of editors is an evolution of the group of IPs who used to edit the talk pages of these articles identifying themselves as Takis, members of the journal's editorial board/committee or the webmaster of the journal [3][4][5][6]. --78.149.243.116 (talk) 20:38, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• It is somewhat peculiar that a first time, 7 Sept., editor IP 78.149.243.116 to comment on 7 Sept. in the middle of a discussion of which he or she knows nothing about, but it is unusual for an editor who on his/her first editing day finds his/her way to this page not only demonstrating wiki research and expertise in wiki protocols and navigating wiki to be able to provide all the references he/she provides. Furthermore, this IP user had to navigate through reams of discussion threads in a few days and have the ability to “determine” whom he thinks KosMal is. This is very unusual and I am asking an administrator to look into this, because IP possibly be a sock-puppet or other violation. John sargis (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Agreed. Everybody and everything you don't like has to be banned. This is direct democracy in action. Particularly so if some people are 'more equal' than others in imposing their own view of what a neutral encyclopedia should all be about and are able to dictate who is allowed to speak and who is not. Personally I refuse to take part anymore in any further 'discussions' of this kind.165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
• You say

"I think the editing/behavior pattern of this group of editors is quite clear. They are not here to create a neutral encyclopedia, but to push an agenda. Anybody interfering with that gets hit with a barrage of accusations and wikilawyering. Trying to improve one of "their" articles is hit by demands that other articles that have similar deficits get cleaned up first because if you don't do that, you have a political bias."

a)You still throw accusations and mud against me and others without even getting into trouble to support your case the way you should do according to WP:AOBF,-as I tried to do-, but you assumed bad faith from the beginning, and this was not accidental as you had attempted to delete the entry as non-notable in the recent past, something that was unanimously rejected with the active participation of other editors as well. And pardon me but..who talks about wikilawyering when you drop rows over rows of Wiki rules which some of them contain significant passages as I tried to show above in my replies that serve the opposite case to what you want to demonstrate! (see the passages from the WP:ANI above, WP:AOBF etc.)

b)As usually you bypass the argument. What you did and this is why you were criticized in the first place was mostly that you added citation demands repeatedly and in a row despite the clear no-need for them in a significant dialogue to which you decided not to take part and reply, while at the same time I and others tried consistently to address your own demands so as to improve the entry, something that demonstrates a reasonably bona fide approach and clearly undermines your accusations for WP:NPA and doesn't explain at all the initiative for beginning this debate in here!.

"This all started with an effort by me to make the article on the (borderline notable) journal Democracy & Nature compliant with our journal article writing guide."

c)Yes, and the editors replied with documented argumentation, passages, examples etc. to your edits in the page's Talk Page; To their answers you did not get into trouble to answer but you brought me and the rest in here when you saw that not all your demands would be fulfilled.

d)Calling a journal borderline notable needs proof which should be given in the entry's Talk Page and not through aphorisms here. A clear decision that the journal is notable was formed just a year ago after extensive discussion and documentation with the participation of other editors too, when you first raised the non-notability factor. Your insistence to show how not notable the journal is, is just another indication of your obvious bias against it and that you just like to pull at straws in this case.

"And as demonstrated above, anybody who dares say that this is not the way things are done here, clearly must be biased against them, too. I think that, at the least, some topic bans are in order here. "

e)This is simply not to say when clear effort to improve the entry was made as a reply to your own dictations. On the other hand your bias is a pattern shown repeatedly, beginning from your attempt to delete the entry a year ago (based on the supposed non-notability of it), which was rejected, by your call still for non-notability of the journal despite the decision last year, by the fact that you proceeded in a spree of cite-tagging that you didn't like to address in the major medium to do it: In the entry's Talk Page.

g)From the above, the case to my mind is simply pulling at straws and should be archived. Moreover no reasoning at all was given by the non-involved editor who appeared yesterday. Panlis (talk) 16:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry, but I think you misread things. The previous AfD was not unanimous at all (despite a host of SPA editors creeping out of the woodwork), which is probably why you didn't link to it directly. (The fact that it was taken to AfD no less than 4 times shows that its notability is not as clear as you try to make it seem). And from the moment that I dared voice some critical remarks of the article on this journal, my motivations have been put into doubt, so it's a bit rich that you now call upon AGF, something you have never done yourself. The references "for which there is no clear need" that I requested are clearly needed. The journal article writing guide, based on a wide consensus in the WikiProject Academic Journals, explicitly states that lists of authors should not be included in an article unless "there are independent reliable sources discussing their involvement with the journal in more than an in-passing way." The appropriate sources should be provided or the list should be removed. Now lest somebody thinks that this is a simple content dispute that does not belong at ANI, please have a look at the talk page of the article and the blatant personal attacks there (continued for all to see in the postings above). --Randykitty (talk) 17:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• You are right, it was not unanimous, you were the only one who didn't agree as far as I recall among a variety of editors. But the documents and dialogue back then demonstrated for good the notability of the article, with dozens of 3rd party references that I digged out, if you remember, which further showed its significance. Secondly, this is not a forum for solving the possible issues of an article but this should be done in its Talk Page to which you decided not to answer. Particularly when the issues raised above were replied in that Talk Page by using relevant examples from many important Journal entries to which for peculiar reasons this rule for Journals you mention doesn't abide, and for which entries you did not make any further fuss e.g. raising respective complaints for their having a simple and direct listing of contributors. And this is mainly because of your bias against the Democracy and Nature entry that has been more than evident from all dialogue in that Talk Page and here, that you disguise as WP:NPA. This is then to my mind clearly a pulling at straws case you continue raising in this Board as it is not intended of course for Dispute Resolution over the content of an article and you very well know it. As per your "critical remarks", you insist on bypassing the fact that the editors of the entry replied to all of them concretely and with evidence in the appropriate page to do this, something that you just did not like and chose arbitrarily to bring the issue of WP:NPA in here instead. But this is also a case of turning a blind eye to the edits of the entry because as I repeatedly demonstrated (but you prefer to ignore), all your sensible demands according to the editors of the entry -older and newer as well-, were met.- Panlis (talk) 19:41, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Read again. There were several delete !votes, although they indeed are somewhat drowned in the walls of text that you and your friends were dropping on that debate, just as you're doing here. You obviously have read WP:TLDR and are trying to use it to your advantage here. The arguments that you brought forward on the talk page to counter my legitimate concerns were 1/ WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and 2/ "you're biased". That kind of arguments always crop up when a cabal of POV/COI editors are faced with somebody insisting on getting things done in a neutral and encyclopedic way. --Randykitty (talk) 20:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Can you please use concrete evidence as passages, diffs etc., like I have been persistently doing inhere, so as to justify your "conclusions"? I just read the dialogue in the Democracy and Nature entry's Talk Page and I don't see any other user who had taken part in that discussion (Cwobeel, WallabieJoey, KosMal, Arran Gare and a couple of IP editors) who was in favour of deleting the entry back then except for you.! Isn't that correct? If I am mistaken please correct me by bringing here specific links, diffs etc. and not with aphorisms. My final take on this irrelevant and disorientating debate is that this is not the arena to solve the possible issues of an entry, and the other issues (Personal Attacking etc.) that you raised were addressed in painstaking detail above. I hope this has become clear and I plead you to stop raising repeatedly humiliating and aggressive cases against me by calling me part of a sect etc. and by pulling at straws inhere, as it could be taken for Harassment. You may have plenty of time to do tens of thousands of edits and to jump to conclusions in dialogues and debates, without getting into trouble to offer specific evidence as per WP:AOBF, but unfortunately I have not when it is not justified, as clearly happens in this pulling-at-straws case. And in addition to the fact that I try to be very precise and documented in my interventions these are the two main reasons for which I cannot contribute in the frequency and to the extent I would like to the Wikipedia project. Thank you! Panlis (talk) 20:49, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Nice try, but as my previous comment should have made clear, we're not here to discuss what happened in an AfD a year ago (even though that debate was marred by the same lack of good faith and personal attacks, and, yes, there were other editors !voting "delete", too), nor is this the place to deal with a content dispute. We are here because of the refusal to AGF and the personal attacks at Talk:Democracy & Nature (at the misnamed section Randy Kitty's recurring deletion attempt). The "discussion" there clearly shows that my efforts to explain why something needs to be done were met with scorn, personal attacks (throwing doubt on my integrity), and bullshit arguments that other articles should be cleaned up first. Diffs are not necessary here, a 5 min perusal of the section I just linked do will do the job just fine. --Randykitty (talk) 21:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Why are you using foul and abusive language such as "bullshit"? Is not that a wiki "no no"? We are proving your bias, since there is a history to your attempt to delete D&N. So how can that not be evidence, because it happened in the past? Randykitty you dis other editors in the previous AfD of D&N as “creeping out of the woodwork” and as "your friends". If that is not an assault or name calling or personal attack or breaking of some wiki rule, or suggesting that bona fide editors are our "friends"let me know what is. Actually, if I were vengeful, I could say the same about the “univolved” editor as "your friend" “creeping out of the woodwork” at this late stage, but I will not because I have no proof. Four times D&N withstood deletion. Is this perpetual attempt to delete not part of something about journal writing? Notable is notable whether weak or strong is it not? Why are you beating a dead horse? Yes, maybe eventually, Randykitty, you will be able to put D&N under your belt, because at sometime you will be able to garner enough support, which speaks volumes of wiki objectivity (notable is notable whether weak or strong). Also you state “lists of authors should not be included in an article unless "there are independent reliable sources discussing their involvement with the journal in more than an in-passing way." We had this discussion about Chomsky who has published in many journals at Wikipedia, but with no reliable sources discussing his involvement with those journals in more than an in-passing way. That is why I demanded evenly applied wiki rules. You came with a ferocity of edits at (as you have tried in the past) the D&N article, and as well as placing tags immediately at Inclusive Democracy & Takis Fotopopulos. As an editor who wants to improve articles, your approach has the opposite effect and can be assumed to be not neutral. You say concerning delete votes on the last attempt to delete D&N, "delete !votes, although they indeed are somewhat drowned in the walls of text that you and your friends were dropping on that debate." A debate is a debate where there is discussion. The "delete" votes and "keep" votes were counted and there were more votes to “keep” as in the other attempts to delete D&N. Why are you accusing editors who help D&N as our "friends"? What proof do you have? Just because they help improve the article you think they are our friends? It is absurd. Furthermore, if you were bona fide and your problem is the quality of the article and not to get rid of the editors because you do not care for their replies, you could have proceeded to a Dispute Resolution procedure and why not open a new thread in the Administrators' Noticeboard with a relevant title. But what you did was to bring me and others to this board by calling us a "sect" and with accusations of WP:COI, WP:NPA etc. etc.. When you found out that your accusations do not have good basis, you came back to the purported problem of the content of the entry, which should be solved with the presence of informed editors about the content of the entry, and not within the context of an accusations thread, as you have just tried to cover over-"nor is this the place to deal with a content dispute" John sargis (talk) 22:09, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

And hop! Yet another wall of text. The issue here is not the previous AfD, nor am I at this point asking for the article to be deleted. And the fact that I took this article to AfD and has been kept does not mean that I am now barred from improving the article where necessary, because I would somehow be biased. Hardly anybody who participated in the AfD has ever tried to improve the article as you claimed. Please stay to the point, which is your aspersions on my integrity. Could an admin please look at the above evidence and, if found to be correct, block me for disruptive editing so that we can put an end to this nonsense? Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 09:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Can someone summarise what the dispute is about in a few lines? The above is rather overwhelming, but I see lots of "other stuff exists" type arguments about why certain style conventions shouldn't apply to this article. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:03, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• The dispute started when I removed a list of contributors and a listing of the journal's editorial board from the article, per the reasoning given in WP:JWG, which is based on a broad consensus in the WikiProject Acadmeic Journals: contributors or editorial board members should only be listed if reliable sources exist that discuss in depth the importance of their contributions for the journal. The reason why we are here is that the above group of editors argued that there exist articles on other journals or magazines that also have such lists and that the fact that I wanted to remove these lists in this particular article showed that I am biased and whatnot. It's the latter personal attacks that brought us here. Somewhere in the above walls of text more such attacks and failures to assume good faith are hidden. Of the group of editors involved, at least one (John sargis) has a COI. The other editors involved almost exclusively edit this article and two related ones (Takis Fotopoulos and Inclusive Democracy). I think this basically sums up the walls of text above (and on Talk:Democracy & Nature). --Randykitty (talk) 13:13, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

You tried the exact same tactic last year and failed to delete D&N, so again this year you attempt it. Does this not obviously show some type of bias by expanding your effort to all three related articles (D&N, Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos) rapidly adding tags without any genuine discussion? One wonders what the motivation is of your edits, since you now say, “nor am I at this point asking for the article to be deleted”, which still implies your plan for deletion. No one can restrict you (or anyone else) from making suggestions about improving any entry you like. But the issue of motives is very different and this is what we examine here, particularly as you immediately questioned my own motives and personally attacked me and other editors as a “sect”, etc. Prove to me this simultaneous attack on all related articles’ timeline is a coincidence, not unrelated nor politically motivated.

D&N article: 22 Aug. 13:40 Randykittyk begins editing--3 edits 23 Aug. 11:14 Johnsargis does 3 edits “ “ 11:38 Randykitty does 1 edit “ “ 16:51 Johnsargis does 1 edit 24 Aug. 17:08 Randykitty does 11 edits, @ 17:22 RK adds “Cleanup Tag” 24 Aug. 5:08 Panlis does 4 edits “ “ 9:14 Randykitty does 2 edits “ “ 10:57 Panlis does 2 edits 24 Aug. 11:09 Randykitty does an edit “Take It To Talk” and does 3 more edits

ID article:

23 Aug. 17:42 Randykitty begins editing with

tag plus 4 more edits

29 Aug. 16:08 IP editor helpful edit. Takis article

23 Aug. 17:53 RandyKitty begins edits with

tag plus 5 more edits

24 Aug. 4:41 Panlis does 1 edit 1 Sept. 6:18 Marcocapelle does helpful edit John sargis (talk) 13:40, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• You want proof? How about the fact that in the timespan you mention here I edited dozens of other articles, deleted dozens more, took one or two to AfD, etc etc. Where's your proof that I am concentrating on "your" articles? Where's any proof of political bias in any of my edits anywhere? Simple: anything any body does to "your" articles that doesn't go in the direction that you want is, per definition, politically biased. Perhaps it's time for some self-reflection here. --Randykitty (talk) 13:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• I never said you only concentrated on the articles. I am showing a timeline where on 23 August your first edits at Inclusive Democracy and Takis Fotopoulos were tags at 17:42 and 17:53 respectively, and on 24 August at 17:08 you add the tag to D&N. If there is not some bias, then prove it. Why did you add those tags in such rapid succession at the articles. It could be construed that you are going after those articles.John sargis (talk) 14:11, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• Some people here have wider interests than just a single subject. I edited the article on the journal, then looked at the article on its former EIC, then clicked on the Inclusive Democracy link. I tagged the articles for the problems that they have. Then I went on to other subjects. It is not me who has to prove my innocence. Here, people are assumed innocent until proven guilty. You have constantly failed to assume good faith and as soon as you disagreed with me and I didn't cave in immediately, started calling my integrity in doubt. --Randykitty (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• • The fact that other articles don't follow those guidelines should probably be disregarded, unless lack of compliance is so widespread that it calls into question whether the guidelines are indeed widely accepted. It seems to be perfectly reasonable to me to request that sources are provided. Personally, I wouldn't be so insistent that those sources need to demonstrate the importance of the contributors to the journal - it seems a valid matter of interest that notable people have contributed - but if the guidelines reflect consensus, then they should be respected. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Wow at the intensity of the WP:WALLEDGARDEN here. RandyKitty's edits were perfectly in line with WP:JWG, and the, let's call them 'anti-Randykitty advocates', consist of WP:SPA accounts with close ties to 'D&N' itself, and sat on the Editorial board of the journal, of often published in the niche journal. I've brought the article mostly inline with our guidelines at WP:JWG. WP:JWG is not a 'hard law', so deviations from it can be warranted from time to time, but I've yet to see a justification for doing so here. I'm not convinced the journal is notable, but if it is to exist, it should comply with our guidelines on the subject. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 13:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• Everybody who has ever read a theoretical journal of political nature is well aware of the fact that a basic element of its notability is who used to contribute to it, either as a writer or an editor. If you strip the D&N entry (or any similar journal entry), from the names of its contributors, then it could be easily classified by those who never liked it to be listed in Wikipedia FOR POLITICAL REASONS (disguised under some bureaucratic rules) as not notable enough, and then be deleted accordingly. I challenge Randykitty and his friend Headbomb to provide us with a list of similar significant theoretical journals of political nature in wikipedia which do implement the rule they invoke. IF THEY CANNOT PROVIDE SUCH A LIST THEN THEIR GAME SHOULD BE CLEAR TO EVERYBODY! 165.120.27.172 (talk) 14:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• All I can say after this diatribe is QED... --Randykitty (talk) 14:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• Many examples can be found in Category:Political science journals. Take for example Acta Politica or Cato Journal. Many counterexamples also exist, but those pretty much fall under WP:OTHERCRAP, and are in need of copy-editing. Although, I have to say from the tone and general behaviour, I wouldn't be surprised if the lot of you didn't get banned under WP:SPA/WP:MEATPUPPET. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:08, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• I hope whomever tries to ban us under wiki puppetry rule did their homework, because if it is proved we are not puppetry puppets of any sort for which there is a wiki rule, then I suppose any editor who attempts to ban us under that rule, is open for harassment. And it would give further credence to our other arguments in this dispute.John sargis (talk) 16:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• Of course, the examples mentioned betray only utter ignorance of the subject. D&N was not a political science journal, as a presumably ignoramus w/p editor classified it. D&N belongs to the same kind of theoretical journals of political nature as The Nation, Monthly Review, New Statesman and many other similar journals where lists of contributors and editors are abundant-as they should be!165.120.27.172 (talk) 15:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

These three are categorized as magazines; if that's the case for D&N, then it should follow instead WP:WikiProject Magazines/Writing guide; if it's peer reviewed, then it needs to abide by WP:JWG. Also, involved editors are welcome to fix any other non-abiding article. Finally, any potential COI must be disclosed, or else that's an easy ban to apply. fgnievinski (talk) 02:55, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposal: John sargis and Panlis topic banned from all articles related to Inclusive Democracy

Given the extensive evidence presented above by John sargis and Panlis of their continued failures to assume good faith, their POV editing with a conflict of interest, and their clear WP:NOTHERE attitude, I propose that they be topic banned from editing any article related to Inclusive Democracy. --Randykitty (talk) 10:08, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support as nom. Given that these are the only articles that they edit, an indefinite block could also be appropriate. Not sure what should be done about the ranting IP. --Randykitty (talk) 10:08, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• REJECT. Banning other editors, simply because their views on how the form of presentation of an entry should be is different from that of an administrator, despite the fact, (as they have shown here and in the past), they may have a vastly superior knowledge on a topic they are interested in than an administrator who has a view on almost everything under the sun in tens of thousands of edits, is not just ‘keeping up with the rules’ . It is a pure form of authoritarianism , if not fascism. In a democratic form of organization, particularly one dealing with knowledge, you fight what you do not like with words, not bans! Every authoritarian regime in the past had always some bureaucratic rules at hand to justify its actions. No originality here. I thought however that Wikipedia was genuinely trying to create an alternative democratic way of presenting knowledge. If bona fide editors do not intervene to stop these purely fascist practices, this could well be the end of Wikipedia as an alternative form of encyclopaedia. In fact, many people would prefer in such a case an orthodox encyclopaedia, which at least is controlled and written by people who do know what they talk about and do not just hide behind bureaucratic rules masquerading as democratic, which could easily be used the way I described. Needless to add that in such a Wikipedia I don’t wish to have any further involvement and therefore I don’t give a damn if the Randykittys of this world ban my ‘ranting’, as he 'politely' called it!165.120.27.172 (talk) 13:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Reject Randykitty your sophistry is unparalleled. In your reason for banning/blocking you say: "Given that these are the only articles that they edit…". Let me remind you of what you said at D&N talk 24 Aug. @ 8:47: “You are under no obligation to clean up any article”. So, you want to get us banned on the one hand because we edit only “inclusive democracy” related articles, but on the other hand you claim we are under no obligation to edit any other article. So how does one hold two opposing viewpoints and not be in contradiction, bad faith, or bias? I do not know. Please instruct. You also assumed an IP editor and I are the same person. Your assumption is proven wrong as the two (or one as you would have it) of us have not been banned by wiki puppet rules. Another editor (headbomb) corroborated your wrong assumption and included Panlis in that he thought that we three would get banned as sockmeat puppets. That did not work, because someone, a sensible editor I assume, probably did a check and found out we are all different IPs. Thus headbomb's assumption is wrong. As far as assuming good faith, at the administrator page 24 August@ 21:43 I said I had no proof you have a political bias. In light of these wrong assumptions others must reject your proposal also. Thank you. John sargis (talk) 14:42, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Reject. This is a hideous twist of the events! Bad faith was a thing demonstrated, -to say the very least disproportionally- by the user Randykitty in the debate both in the Talk Page and inhere, and I will try to show why in a somehow concise but I feel plausible way:

a) the user began an activity of repeatedly putting tags and asking for citation demands over, first, the need for such a list and, secondly, the notability of the contributors of the journal themselves, despite the obvious non-agreement in the entry's Talk Page. This naturally led to edit warring and relatively heated debate in an entry which he had attempted to delete last year, something that had been solemnly rejected by all other users who participated in the dialogue back then --and these users were not only John Sargis and I- but uninvolved users as well apart from the ones who are being accused of WP:COI here.

b) While the editors and I tried to address his, considered as sensible, issues in the journal's Talk Page by focusing primarily on his activity but at the same time without disconnecting his proven bias towards the entry (another indication of which is that he still virtually claims the journal is not notable despite last year's clear decision which had followed abundant documentation about its notability-to which of course turned a blind eye-, and when now implicitly shows his recurrent intentions when he writes "nor am I at this point asking for the article to be deleted”) as Randykitty would very much like them to, he jumped to accusing us in this forum, of WP:COI, WP:POV etc.

c) This happened without him trying in the first place to use a Dispute Resolution route or post a related to the problematic content subject in here according to the same procedure, and ask for third opinions about the very issues debated in the Talk Page. His primary action in this board was to "tag" and accuse us of WP:COI, WP:PA etc. with the aim to get rid of all dissidents by blocking us. Getting rid of editors involved with the entry and having some experience with it (something that of course does not constitute WP:COI etc.) would be a definite way serving his claimed favor of potentially deleting it in the near future- as is more than evident now from the above.

d) He showed once more his bias against the entry and his aim just to punish the older editors of the entry for not comforming to all of his demands, when he neglected the important effort to improve the entry that was taking place during the debate and indeed attempted to address mainly his own demands for citations, clean up etc.; just indicatively, sorry for the dropping

To the naked eye this simply cannot be called "bad faith", by any interpretation, against the user Randykitty as he blatantly accuses me and the rest, and and it is at least disorientating if not a clear mark of authoritarianism to use such a characterization as an "argument" in order to block us from editing an entry based on argumentation and the WP rules.

e) Even worse, Randykitty was led to the point of essentially "blackmailing" all uninvolved users who happen to read the debate here in case we don't get "assorted" (i.e. blocked from editing the entry and even better for him as he declared, get blocked ad infinitum) when he blatantly stated that "Eventually, some uninvolved editors will get around to this and wade through the wall of accusations that has been thrown up above and, if they'll find that you are correct, I'll be swiftly desyssopped and indefinitely blocked from editing here." -a statement which is a blatant act of self-victimization and emotional "blackmailing" to his favor. And this based on the fact that he has indeed the fluency to do thousands of edits, while I and other editors, as I mentioned in the debate, have not the same time and objective ability to help more with the Wikipedia project as I would like to and this is I believe a legitimate reason of maintaining a "sole-purpose" activity, particularly when I and the rest of editors demonstrate good faith as I clearly showed above, in contrast to Randykitty's direct aim to shut off anyone who doesn't comform to all his demands, that is now more than evident (his initiative says it all). Since as I tried to demonstrate above, no WP:PA was intended (something explicitly clarified by all other parts in the debate) --and calling someone that s/he maintains a bias towards an entry when it is based on his very deeds is not a "personal attack"--, this user, based on his experience, is constantly disorienting in order to pass his agenda: to eventually delete the entry - An aim explicitly demonstrated by his related history and revealed by his own very recent sayings, which I feel I plausibly exposed above.Panlis (talk) 16:37, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

References
References

• Comment I think that the involved parties have summed up their views very well above and request appropriate measures and closure of this thread. --Randykitty (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support this on the grounds of a conflict of interest that the editors concerned appear unwilling to step away from. Also, when an editor states "I hope whomever tries to ban us under wiki puppetry rule did their homework, because if it is proved we are not puppetry puppets of any sort for which there is a wiki rule, then I suppose any editor who attempts to ban us under that rule, is open for harassment", I start to think that action further than a topic ban is justified. No one should be subject to harassment for raising concerns about sockpuppetry, whether they prove to be accurate or not. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:19, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment If you read the thread you will read that we were harassed and taunted as being sockpuppets several times over several days--just don't talk the talk. Yes, right or wrong wiki is always right. Wiki hides behind waves and waves of rules, some of which we pointed out are contradictory and asked why they were not evenly applied, we have to muck through, and we became the problem--sect, sockpuppets, etc.--while Randykitty portrayed himself as victim while all the time he carries all the weapons, sorry I mean rules. Thank you. John sargis (talk) 21:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
    • Comment John, I don't think I accused anybody here of socking. At the start of this thread, I only remarked that I thought you had once forgotten to sign in. You said you didn't and I left it at that, that's what we here in this rules-infested harassing and taunting wiki call "assuming good faith", but a you have amply demonstrated, you're incapable of that. Socking is not the topic of this thread at all, that's your lack of AGF, personal attacks, and COI editing. Funny that you keep coming back all the time to this non-existent socking accusation, one would almost be tempted to think that you feel guilty... --Randykitty (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support, the editors and IP in question have shown repeated and unrepentant uncivil behaviour, including various personal attacks, and have shown they cannot edit neutrally and level-headedly in light of their conflict of interest. WP:SPA certainly apply. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• Reject. I have no the intention or the time to spend on this nonsense but I’m gonna tell my opinion and gonna cast a vote just because user Panlis made a reference to my name. I took a short look and I have to say that although the users Panlis and John sargis maybe have a conflict of interest it’s also clear that the user Randykitty is totally biased against the entry of Democracy and Nature (not accidentally last year he tried to delete the entry). Although references have been made to him for other similar entries (political radical left journals) who are suffering from similar problems Randykitty was repeatedly ignoring them saying he has not the time, but, still, it seems has the time to apply these rules only to this specific entry and make such a fuss for it. At the moment that there are articles in the international press regarding the decline of the numbers of editors at the Wikipedia some users still spend hours and days trying to ban other users who in fact never tried to disturb the Wikipedia functions but just to keep a well known radical left political journal in the Wikipedia pages, although this may mean argumentative dialogues etc. which probably are simply boresome and bothersome for the former. If the users Panlis and John sargis gonna be banned then also the user Randykitty should be banned. Reject. KosMal (talk) 07:11, 11 September 2015 (UTC)--Randykitty (talk) 07:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• Note that according to their talk page, this user edits from the same IP address as the indeffed Nikosgreencookie. --Randykitty (talk) 07:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• KosMal is obviously a sock of Nikosgreencookie [7]. They share an IP address and an interest in articles related to Democracy & Nature/Inclusive Democracy as well as the Green Cookie Records article [8][9]. It's not too hard to discover that this person has also been a long-term member of the editorial committee of the International Journal of Inclusive Democracy. --78.149.243.116 (talk) 20:15, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment It is somewhat peculiar that a first time, 7 Sept., editor IP 78.149.243.116 commenting on 7 Sept. (see above thread) in the middle of a discussion of which he or she knows nothing about, but it is unusual for an editor who on his/her first editing day finds his/her way to this page not only demonstrating wiki research and expertise in wiki protocols and navigating wiki to be able to provide all the references he/she provides. Furthermore, this IP user had to navigate through reams of discussion threads in a few days and have the ability to “determine” whom he thinks KosMal is. This is very unusual and I am asking an administrator to look into this, because IP possibly be a sock puppet violation.John sargis (talk) 11:27, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• Reject. Panlis and John sargis may have not contributed to other pages not related to Inclusive Democracy, but this does not necessarily mean they are acting on bad faith. I cannot find an issue with their COI, as I have seen (see the links in their comments above) their strong will to positively contribute and cooperate in order for their edits to conform with the (admittedly, quite complex) Wikipedia writing rules. As I can see it, this disagreement was brought to this board by Randykitty too quickly, instead of following the Wikipedia rules for dispute resolution, which shows to me that Randykitty had assumed bad faith too soon. Since then, this has grossly escalated way out of proportion. Notwithstanding the rather heated tone coming from some of the editors' reactions to this issue (a tone which, while it can be understood, I do hope is reconsidered by the editors) I see it as extremely harsh to ban them. Fusedmilk (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• @Fusedmilk: I'm impressed to see that an editor with just 4 edits found their way here. Dispute resolution is for resolving conflicts about content. Personal attacks and failure to assume good faith, which is the issue here, go to ANI. --Randykitty (talk) 07:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• @Randykitty: I came here and started following this issue when my user name was mentioned above (because I had recently made a small edit in the Democracy & Nature page). I am not saying I am a Wikipedia expert (I still have a tiny editing history anyway), but I would say I have been familiarising myself with the regulations to the degree of being able to positively contribute here. As I said above, my opinion is that the issue escalated needlessly, as bad faith was assumed (and hence brought to ANI) too quickly from you. Fusedmilk (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• Randykitty, I am also very impressed by your ‘impartial’ zeal to have any possible reject vote of your proposal dismissed. Shall we assume on the basis of your comment on Fusedmilk’s reject vote that only full-time Wikipedia editors, (who could not possibly have the time to do any other job when they make over 60,000 edits in over two years), do qualify to make comments in Wikipedia? Very interesting thought but I want to hear also the views of other administrators on this, not just yours and the couple of your editor friends.165.120.27.172 (talk) 08:45, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
  • There's nothing wrong with "part-time" editors commenting here, but it is slightly unusual for an editor's fourth ever edit to be to a noticeboard such as this and to demonstrate knowledge of the dispute resolution process. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
    • • And let's not forget that this editor came back after a 4+ year break, to edit Democracy and Nature with their 2nd edit during the dispute. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 12:24, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
    • And there's nothing wrong about not being "impartial" towards editors that engage in tendentious COI editing and personal attacks. --Randykitty (talk) 10:05, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
      • Excellent. Taking for granted what we have to prove is a very convenient way to dispense 'justice'.165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:06, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
        • Not at all. I have been steadfastedly NPOV in my edits to articles. Nothwithstanding my clear POV against disruptive editors like you. --Randykitty (talk) 11:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, but don’t pretend to be an impartial observer, a kind of a fair judge because you obviously are not, unless we talk about a complete travesty of justice. You are obviously very much involved in this and you simply cannot decide whose view should be taken into account and whose not. I HOPE OTHER TRULY NON-INVOLVED ADMINISTRATORS WILL EXPRESS THEIR VIEW ON THE MATTER WHICH, DUE TO RANDYKITTY’S VENDETTA, HAS ALREADY TAKEN THE FORM OF A W/P SCANDAL165.120.27.172 (talk) 11:57, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• I couldn't agree more! --Randykitty (talk) 12:04, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support, per above the editors and IP in question have shown repeated and unrepentant uncivil behaviour, including various personal attacks, and have shown they cannot edit neutrally and level-headedly in light of their conflict of interest. WP:SPA certainly apply. Even on this ANI, half the content is an uncivil tirade. Pincrete (talk) 22:04, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I think we should be cautious when we characterize the others as having a Conflict of Interest. Particularly so since as I tried to demonstrate above I feel the accused editors acted bona fide and while the debate was taking place tried to address the -considered as sensible- issues raised in the entry by the "punisher". As about the behavior, the history of his deletion attempt and the recurrent rush by our accuser to ask for debatable dictations "accidentally" only to that entry, I think are enough to show who acted on bad faith and who not.Panlis (talk) 12:14, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• John sargis's user name suggests that he is the assistant editor of the current version of the journal. That's a pretty big potential conflict of interest. When he then adds unsourced material on big-name contributors to the journal to the article, we have a COI problem. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• Cordless Larry, what exactly do you mean with unsourced material? As I can see in the diff you sent, editor John Sargis just added a list of the "International Advisory Board up to the last issue of D&N" and at the same time rightly removed the reoccurring names from the list of Contributors. I think it's very common sense that a Journal's Advisory Board can be straightly and easily deducted from the Primary Source itself (i.e. the Journal). Adding straightforward, non-interpretive material from the primary source is a clear case in which there is no need for another source to support it, per WP:PRIMARY as well: "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." Panlis (talk) 14:29, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
• No source was cited, despite the fact that he had already been reverted with a request for sources. Perhaps the more relevant point is that there is a clear COI here. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support The behaviour of Panlis, John Sargis and the IP in this thread alone makes me put aside my usual oppose on principle against sanctions proposed by an involved party. Blackmane (talk) 13:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Blackmane and Pincrete. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Blackmane and Pincrete, based on issues related to editor conduct. As some may have seen, I have added an edit to the article talk page recently, after seeing the discussion here, but I was basically too damn lazy to read through this whole thing here. But the conduct seems to be getting worse over time, unfortunately. John Carter (talk) 16:57, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Bad Conduct is an easy thing to generically blame someone for, but could you please indicate some genuine instances in which my conduct became a negative substitute for argumentation and justification of my sayings or edits from the moment the whole debate began up to now, and how it seems to be "getting worse over time" (!) ? Unless you mean that I should not make any poignant comments or expose a user's recurrent frantic multi-tagging editing tactics and historic bias on a subject, just because he happens to be "popular" because of his many edits, or else I will get a bad conduct discharge..! Panlis (talk) 18:15, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Responding to disclosure of a conflict of interest by heavy filibustering and attacking the messenger instead of taking a step back demands a response, and this seems more proportionate than a block. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:39, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Dolovis and page creation problems

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

User:Dolovis must get mentor approval prior to creating new articles or requesting undeletion of article histories for a period of six months. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:22, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

---

Apologies for the length of this report. The tl;dr version is that I believe Dolovis (talk · contribs)' page creation habits routinely ignore policy, guidelines and past consensus, and represent a drain on community time that far outweighs what little value they provide. I recommend this be stopped. Resolute 23:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

---

Dolovis is an editor with whom myself and a few other editors have had a long and contentious history with regarding article creation. He first came to ANI back in 2011 in which he was creating and/or moving pages and gaming the system as part of a diacritics war that was brewing at the time. He was briefly banned from moving pages, and later re-banned from moving any pages related to diacritics after immediately breaching a promise to reform his behaviour in that area. To the best of my knowledge, that ban remains active. (He is also under a BASC imposed one-way interaction ban with Djsasso, whom Dolovis has targeted more than once, and most recently with scrutiny-evading sockpuppet - that condition placed as part of an unblock request that a clearly divided ArbCom reluctantly granted.)

I have long been an extreme critic of Dolovis' habits of creating one or two sentence sub-stubs of marginally notable or completely non-notable hockey players, often relying on the bare minimum allowed by the WP:NHOCKEY SNG (recent example: Simon Suoranta; literally a couple thousand more examples available) - inevitably using just a stats sheet or player profile page from a league site as the sole source. His other big habit is to create redirects for non-notable players to any random article that might kind of fit, pretty much just on speculation that said player might become notable someday. I have long felt that these creations are ego-driven efforts to simply grab the first edit for as many new pages as he can, and not done out of a true desire to improve the project. Or, as Ravenswing recently put it: "This isn't any attempt to improve the encyclopedia; this is a manic rush to Game High Score for article 'creation.'" Dolovis' only real goal with Wikipedia is to create as many new pages as he can, and he has shown complete and utter contempt for virtually every policy or guideline that stands in his way. The result is that editors who also monitor in this space have to spend an inordinate amount of time curating and reviewing these articles, while his contempt for policies has caused a great deal of wasted time for editors and admins at WP:AFD, WP:REFUND, WP:RFD - By my count, Dolovis has had over 100 articles deleted at AFD alone; Ravenswing targeted about 75 articles of his for AFD in January 2014. Only ONE ended up as a keep. Four others were no consensus closes, the rest deleted. This represented a massive waste of time for those of us who had to do the research after creation because Dolovis clearly and obviously did not do any research before creation.

The problems with his creations go far deeper than just a disregard for notability criteria. He has created two speculative articles on NHL teams that don't exist - Quebec NHL team and Las Vegas NHL team - that, aside from being failures of WP:CRYSTAL, I have realized are unattributed copy-paste jobs from Potential National Hockey League expansion. In short, Dolovis is creating copyright violations because it is easier to rip off someone else's work to try and grab that first edit for any future NHL team. Another of his recent creation, 2014 KHL Junior Draft, is likewise an unattributed copy of someone else's article (in this case, 2013 KHL Junior Draft). He has also previously tried to speculate on future NHL teams as well - in this case, ironically, one of the few examples of his putting real work into something (assuming it wasn't likewise just ripped off from someone else's work).

Dolovis has deliberately created articles on non-notable players and failed to defend them when PRODded (most recent example: Pavel Karnaukhov), because he knows he can just run to WP:REFUND and request a history undeletion to get that first edit back if the player later becomes notable and someone else recreates the article. This is something that has been picked up on by others. This only wastes the time of three separate editors: whomever reviews the article, who deletes it at PROD, and who restores the article later. This is blatant gaming the system. In that thread, Ravenswing also shows numerous links of Dolovis misrepresenting sources to try and claim a player meets an easier criteria of NHOCKEY or misrepresenting NHOCKEY itself to try and justify these creations.

Dolovis is even worse when it comes to redirect creation. When he knows there is no chance of an article surviving more than a few hours, he just redirects pages to random, somewhat related targets with no regard for the fact that his actions actively hinder the search function. In fact, despite having these redirects deleted at least five times in the past two years, I STILL had to take two more to RFD this week, which are again heading to a delete. As of right now, he has 17 redirects listed at RFD, and every single one is leaning delete. And I am preparing to RFD dozens more for the exact same reason.

His non-hockey creations are no better, This article was clearly created as a synthesis of Van Gogh self-portrait (1889) - Dolovis obviously does not have those sources and never read them. He simply copied them from the latter article and reworded a couple passages to "create" his version. And then there is this. That might be the laziest article creation in Wikipedia history. He only expanded it (likely a cleaned up version of Google Translate) after someone else reviewed and prodded it.

All of this is just a long winded way of saying that Dolovis' page creations are of such a low value, that his continual disregard for policy and guidelines - including policies on copyright violations - and that the time wasted in cleaning up, PRODding, AFDing and RFDing is so high, that allowing Dolovis to continue creating pages like this represents such a drain on the community that I believe it needs to be stopped. This has been going on for years. As such, I would like to propose that Dolovis be indefinitely banned from creating any new pages in Wikipedia main space. Given he brags that he has started over 5800 pages, I would suggest that he could direct his future time into expanding those 5800 two sentence sub stubs. Resolute 23:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• Ah yes, Dolovis. Indef-blocked after a drawer full of socks and unblocked with a minor edit restriction--see this note by Thryduulf. That seems to have come about quite easily. Drmies (talk) 03:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• I completely endorse all Resolute has said and support an indef ban on new article creation by Dolovis. Dolovis is not only a disruptive presence, who's created an appalling amount of work for those who've had to clean up his messes, but he's been extremely tendentious over the years, filibustering at great length to keep his edit count high ... often at times in complete contradiction to arguments he made the week before. As you can see yourself from his edit history, he's far less interested in improving the encyclopedia as in racking up his new creation count, and has found the creation of implausible, desperately obscure redirects an easy way to do it.

  Honestly, I would really appreciate hearing from those in the BASC process who felt that Dolovis' well-merited indef block ought to be reversed. Leaving aside the minor edit restriction to which he agreed (and which he just last week sought to overturn), what led them to believe that he had changed his ways, what assurances did they receive that he would do so, and what monitoring did they undertake to ensure that he did? Ravenswing 06:16, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Can someone give some background here? The block log only says that it was a block evasion block (which seems odd to create new accounts since they wouldn't inflate your edit count) since the 2012 block and thus the standard offer that was the main basis for the unblock was for sock evasion and this doesn't seem to be the problem here. Is there a discussion about a redirect or article-creation ban (I think there's at least one other user with an ARBCOM ban with that kind of wording)? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

From the sockpuppet investigation, you can see that another account was being used to request deletion of articles created by Ravenswing and Djsasso, using the same rationale used in requests for deletion of articles created by Dolovis. isaacl (talk) 07:07, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so still nothing related to this specific problem (ignoring that the only response seemed to be "look at my edit count, I couldn't have done this"). Again, I'm not seeing a history of the new article abuse problem so examples of recent antics (there isn't a huge deleted edit history so there actually aren't a lot of editing articles that became deleted) would be helpful and then we're back to potential solutions: a proposal that Dolovis be banned from six months from creating a new article or redirect without the approval of an admin? (I'd suggest AFC but requiring admins would be a higher standard and one I've seen here before). Is so, suggest that and see if there's a consensus supporting that. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I didn't want to go too far into his SPI stuff since it is tangental to his article creation problem, and this was long enough as it is. But that was a hypocritical example of Dolovis using a sock in bad hand fashion to revenge target some of DJSasso and Ravenswing's oldest articles created using the exact same rationale as Ravenswing presented in nominating seven dozen of Dolovis' pages for deletion. Part of the reason why his deleted contributions list is deceptive is the fact that he knowningly creates articles that won't pass a PROD or AFD, but wants the first edit in history so he can request a history restore at WP:REFUND when someone else re-creates an article after the subject does become notable. But in short, he's had over 100 articles deleted at AFD, he's got about 100 redirects at RFD right now - he continues to create redirects of the type that have been consistently deleted at RFD for a few years now even though he is well aware of the consensus against them - and god only knows how many have been deleted through PROD, only to be restored later at REFUND. The long and the short of it is that we are at several hundred pages deleted or about to go, and what does stick, sticks only because they meet NHOCKEY or other SNGs by the skin of their teeth. Even then, those sub stubs themselves offer no value. Given his history of misrepresenting sources, it would honestly take more time than what any of us has to investigate and verify all of those pages as well. Ravenswing spent close to a month last year reviewing and AFDing less than 20% of his creations, at that time. And Dolovis is now getting into creating copyvios, which was the final impetus for this report. He's damned lucky I only picked up on those after his ill-advised request to have one edit restriction removed was archived, otherwise I would have presented this to arbcom in that process. As it is, it wastes our time to have to review this junk, it wastes an admin's time to deal with PROD requests on articles he knows won't stick, it wastes an admin's time at REFUND and it waste's everyone's time at AFD and RFD. Resolute 13:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Break

• At the moment, there are 103 such redirects up for "discussion" (read: deletion) at RfD:
  • Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 August 28#Pier-Olivier Pelletier (2 pages)
  • Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 August 31#NHL Draft redirects (13 pages)
  • Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 September 1#NHL team draft pick redirects (88 pages, not all Dolovis)

as well as

• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2013 December 23#Victor Rask (1 page, deleted)
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 January 4#Eamon McAdam (1 page, deleted)
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 January 4#Yan-Pavel Laplante (1 page, deleted)
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2014 July 6#Anton Karlsson (ice hockey, born 1996) (2 pages, both deleted)
• Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 June 22#Tommy Vannelli (3 pages, all deleted)

Anton Karlsson is archetypal of the page creation problem. Dolovis created this as an empty redirect to a page with no information about the player on 20 February 2014. It was prodded; Dolovis removed the prod; it was listed and then deleted at Rfd. Another editor created a page about this player some time later, when they became notable. Subsequently, Dolovis requested the history of their redirect be merged with this page, and is now credited as the creator of this content, even though they contributed exactly nothing to it. This is an WP:EDITCOUNTITIS problem, but a problem nonetheless.

The bigger problem, of course, is that of the 111 pages listed above, none have survived a deletion discussion (counting the 103 currently listed which are very likely to be deleted shortly, their discussions are really formalities at this point) and this wastes the community's time (it takes, by my count, 312 edits to list the 103 currently listed, not counting the actual discussion, plus subsequently taking up admins' time closing those discussions and deleting the redirects, plus time wasted when Dolovis requests history merges when someone else creates an article). Banning Dolovis from creating pages will not harm the encyclopedia at all, and will give other editors the opportunity to be given appropriate credit when they create pages about notable hockey players, which will further encourage the creation of those articles, which greatly benefits the project.

Thus (tl;dr) I support banning Dolovis from creating pages in any space, because I'm sure they'll just find a way to game a more limited ban. I have no comment on the socking issue as it seems unrelated to the page creation issue, and doesn't seem to be a current issue anyway. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 13:51, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support I am going to keep this pretty brief because Resolute has done a very good job of summing up the issue. Dolovis continually creates articles he know will be almost instantly deleted. And when he can't even remotely argue an article is valid he creates a redirect to some random remotely related page that often has no information on the subject. He has been an extremely disruptive editor in all manner of ways from his ban on diacritics editing to the sockpuppeting to the creation of clearly non-notable pages that are a waste to the communities time. I actually support a full site ban. But I am happy to accept a page creation ban as a first step to see if that helps the situation. -DJSasso (talk) 16:37, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support a six-month topic ban against Dolovis creating articles or redirects without having it approved by an administrator. Proposing a dozens redirects will just annoy someone but if there's a new article, there's a chance to get it approved. I'm going to give a bit of leeway to see if Dolovis can propose articles of any worth to be created which would give us support to remove the ban in the future. Otherwise, there's no way to tell if the problems have been resolved or not. If there's no examples or new articles of the right quality to base this on, we can evaluate extending this in the future. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a very reasonable response; certainly Dolovis should be allowed to create articles if they are worth creating, and not just redirects or stubs on players which they admit are non-notable. However, I propose that this restriction be placed for 14 months. Why 14? Because this will actually prevent Dolovis from creating the mass of redirects from players drafted in the next year's draft. Otherwise, it's not really a sanction, they will pretty much automatically wait it out. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 00:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

In six months, Dolovis can either show that this restriction is no longer needed (by pointing to actual articles created after approval by an admin) or we'll see that Dolovis has done nothing in that way because Dolovis only wants to create stubs and redirects. If there are literally zero edits because this topic ban is essentially a de facto ban for that person (for a lot of editors, a minor topic ban causes a complete meltdown, but we'll see here), then we'll all better off I guess. The personality type that sockpuppets that much and argues that much just after agreeing to restrictions tells me it won't take six months for another problem to surface that this restriction won't matter much. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

On the face of it, this sounds reasonable. My worry, however, is that at no stage in his Wikipedia career has Dolovis embraced the premise of "You're right. I'm wrong. I recognize that I broke the rules, I'm sorry and I won't do it again." Over and over again, he argues for delay -- that some other appeals process be brought into play, that he'll agree to an entirely voluntary, short-term (and unenforceable) moratorium on objectionable behavior, that deadlines be extended for further comment. What would a six-month restriction solve that his nine-month block didn't?

Beyond that, who's the poor bastard admin who's going to get saddled with doing all the notability research on dozens of new articles, an area in which Dolovis is notoriously indifferent? Ravenswing 06:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Mentorship, is the route to take. We can't just destroy an editor, merely because he/she may annoys us. GoodDay (talk) 23:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• No one's advocating "destroying" anyone. Nor is any editor prevented from being a productive contributor to the encyclopedia by being enjoined from new article creation. Not counting redirects, I've created fewer than a half-dozen articles a year, and I've only created two in the last three years. Over 40,000 edits in, I figure I've found other ways to contribute. Ravenswing 08:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry for butting into such an important discussion — I followed user:Resolute here. So this is where all the editors on Wikipedia are spending their time? Wow!

Anyway, I won’t stay around long (don’t want to get in trouble), but the opening statement by Resolute got me worried, because I also create a fair number of wp:stubs that end up in the wiki-garbage-can, but did not realize that this could put me on the wrong side of the wiki-law. I hope I am taking things out of context, but sorry, I don't have the time to investigate. Ottawahitech (talk) 14:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Response by Dolovis

• Response by Dolovis: When I joined Wikipedia in 2010, I came across thousands one line stub articles about professional ice hockey articles. I found these articles helpful as they encouraged me to become active as an editor to work to improve such articles. One editor in particular, User:Patken4, had created thousands of stub articles about hockey players, (see Roy Mitchell (ice hockey), Randy Murray (ice hockey), and Darrell May (ice hockey) for just three of such examples) and I could see that much more such work was needed in this area. Following the example of Patken4, I volunteered myself into the IceHockey Project to create and improve articles about notable hockey players pursuant to WP:NHOCKEY. Working diligently as a GOOD FAITH editor, I created starter articles for not only NHL players, but also for other major and “Top level” leagues as defined by WP:NHOCKEY and WP:NHOCKEY/LA, including Swedish Hockey League, the Finnish Liiga, Kontinental Hockey League, Czech Extraliga. I dedicated myself to creating articles for all 808 major league players who played in the now defunct World Hockey Association, completing this task on June 4, 2014 (see talk page “thanks” for my efforts). Along the way I have also made many thousands of edits to improve other existing articles.

I believe in and have remained loyal to the Wikipedia Project, despite what I have perceived as bullying from some editors, including Resolute and DJSasso, who I feel have been harassing me since first joining the IceHockey Project. I have certainly made mistakes. I used to be involved in discussions, and often found myself disagreeing with Resolute and DJSasso – but following such discussions, I always tried to follow the consensus - whether I agreed with it or not. I now try to avoid such discussions.

I firmly believe that creating stub articles encourages others to add, build, improve, and work collaboratively on on this never ending project called Wikipedia, and yes, I am proud that I have contributed over 5,800 new articles to Wikipedia. I am not concerned if some have been since deleted, because I do not own them and I welcome the efforts of others to contribute to Wikipedia. The harsh welcome felt by most new editors discourages the creation of new articles, but I believe that new articles are the life-blood of Wikipedia. If one takes a look at my edit history, you will find no disruptive editing (yes, I have made mistakes, but I have never tried to disrupt Wikipedia). Despite Resolute's numerous and loud claims that I am a bad faith editor, I am not. Following Resolute's criticism that I was making one line “stub-stub” articles, I tried to take his criticism constructively to improve my stubs to be better. A look at my recent creations will show a pattern of making stub articles for notable subject pursuant to WP:IDEALSTUB, as a starting point for other editors to build upon. Resolute is trying to make the claim that I am disruptive because I am creating too many articles, so therefore I am creating work for the other editors. Following Resolute's thinking, if there were nothing there, there would be nothing to complain about. Look at his uncivil comment following my creating an article for CalgaryNEXT where he writes “As usual, someone else is left to clean up a lazy mess created only as an ego trip” [10]. This was not created as an "ego-trip". It was created because it is a notable subject pursuant to WP:GNG and deserves to have an article. That is but one example of the incivility that I have been forced to accept from Resolute for many years.

Concerning the redirects I have created: The redirects under discussion here were created over the past 5 years by a number of different editors including myself, User:Alaney2k, User:Canuckian89, User:One95, User:Shootmaster 44, User:Uncleben85, and User:USA1168. What was once considered an acceptable and even helpful edit pursuant to WP:RPURPOSE as a ”sub-topics or other topics which are described or listed within a wider article”, are now vilified as “bad faith” edits. I don't believe any of these redirects were created in bad faith. If there is a new consensus and guideline stating that it is wrong for players to be redirected to a list of players drafted by NHL teams, then I would happily follow it. Dolovis (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Just so you know, stating that you have created 5800 new articles doesn't do much to tamp down on the concerns that you are game-playing everyone by creating nonsense stubs that get deleted and trying to jump back in when someone else eventually does create the page. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I was just addressing the issue of “5800 articles” as raised above by Resolute above. These are not “nonsense stubs”. These are deserving articles created pursuant to WP:Stub. Resolute claims that I have had “over 100 articles deleted at AFD alone”, but what he doesn't say is most of those were AfD'd only after the IceHockey Project lowered its WP:NHOCKEY bar and then targeted such articles for deletion (only articles created by me, not the hundreds created by others). He also doesn't say that these articles were brought directly to AfD where they were summarily deleted pursuant to the new standards for inclusion (when a PROD likely would have been more efficient and less time consuming). I do not create article knowing they will be deleted. I create articles so others can build upon them. Dolovis (talk) 22:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

They were AfD'd because they lacked any substantive coverage so as to pass GNG. We raised the bar on that one section of NHOCKEY because you were abusing the hell out of it and trying to use it as a shield to justify creation of articles on non-notable subjects. If you actually looked for sources to ensure a GNG pass before creation - rather than make the rest of us do it for you - the number of games a minor league player had in his career would never have entered the equation. Resolute 23:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry Dolovis, not buying it for a second. It is hilarious for you to claim there is no bad faith editing in your history given you have two active edit restrictions already, one for bad faith editing in the realm of diacritics, and the other for bad faith use of sockpuppets.

You claiming now that you will suddenly follow any "new consensus" about not redirecting to draft articles now is curious given I hauled you to RFD FIVE TIMES in the last 18 months or so with such redirects deleted every single time, only to have you come back with yet another run of such creations afterward. This promise today is only being made because you are staring down a page creation ban, not because you respect a consensus that has existed for a long time.

You have failed to address your cut and paste copyvios. You have failed to address your history of misrepresenting sources. You have failed to address the problem of you creating articles on subjects you know are not notable so you can have history restored later via REFUND. You have failed to address the fact that you will always do the absolute minimum per NHOCKEY - and in most cases, how you never even make the barest effort to look for sources beyond a website that is nothing but a stats page. I haven't mentioned it yet in this complaint, but in the cases where more stringent criteria has forced you to put bare effort in, I would also like you to address your habit of using blogs and other unreliable sources, WP:ROUTINE sources and sources with obviously trivial mentions while making little to no effort to find substantive coverage. This goes well beyond your habit of creating one or two sentence sub-stubs that are of no value, virtually never even bothering to look for sources that cover players in non-trivial, substantive fashion that WP:GNG requires. I gave you the benefit of the doubt when you started here and offered to work with you. And even though you were creating conflicts with others right out of the gate, I still tried to offer constructive advice - the very same advice you are being given four and a half years later and still ignoring four and a half years later. If my attitude towards you is negative today, it is because I have five years of bad faith actions to judge you by. In the end, the ultimate question is still to ask why the community should be forced to spend so much time cleaning up after you. Don't you think five years of having to fix the messes you create is more than enough? Resolute 22:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Resolute's argument is false deductive reasoning. He argues that because he has taken my edits to RfD, therefore I have made disruptive edits. Again, what Resolute fails to mention is that out of the hundreds of existing redirect edits, he targeted only my edits for deletion - even going so far as to apologize to another editor[11] who he inadvertently RfD'd with my edits. If there are any copyvios, they would inadvertent and minor, and should properly be be addressed through copy editing or appropriate attribution. Clearly, his RfD campaign is a personal vendetta against me and not against my editing, which falls within the standards of what other editors are doing. Dolovis (talk) 00:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

No, I apologized for Alaney for failing to notify him that one of his redirects was taken to RFD. My error there was simply assuming that they were all yours. As to the rest, you're just lashing out in desperation - much like you did the last time you were hauled to SPI and tried to accuse me of using a sockpuppet that voted against myself in deletion discussions to try and distract the discussion. I will once again note that you have failed to address any of the points I raised above, and you failed to answer the questions at the end. So I once again ask: how long should we be expected to fix the messes you leave behind? Resolute 01:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Dolovis, can we resolve the current issue here now? Would you be willing to agree to even a temporary ban on creating articles and redirects? Resolute's argument is that he has taken your edits to RFD which has deleted the redirects in the hundreds, you have an incorrect version of policy. The point is that the redirects and articles you created before (even years before) have been brought to RFD and a number have been deleted. My proposal is simply that you get an admin to approve of it which isn't a terrible chore if you've completed a decent drafts. If the issues with hockey redirects have resolved with your acknowledgment of the current policies, then I see zero issues at all here with my proposal. Else, you currently came back from an block for sockpuppetry, with an edit restriction, which I see that you're currently arguing to remove already and for which the few ARBCOM members who allowed you to return have said you either need to follow or you can retract the agreement and go back to the ban. So if you want people to think that you've seriously reformed, it would be a good idea for you to pre-emptively agree to resolving the problems that got you in trouble before. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

That is a rather gross oversimplification of my argument, actually. His redirects are only one part of the overall problem which, in short, is to do as little work as possible while trying to gain a "high score" for article creation, and leaving behind a morass of sloppy work that achieves so little value that it cannot hope to make up for the time spent cleaning up after him in multiple venues. Resolute 01:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

The only person who appears to be concerned with my edit count is Resolute, and I will be happy to remove the “Userboxes” from my user page if they are annoying to Resolute or any other editors. Until now, my understanding was that editors should be aware of WP:REDDEAL when creating redirects, and that RDs to draft lists were otherwise acceptable for nn players. But if this is no longer the consensus, then I will refrain from redirects to NHL draft lists, and even help to start tagging other such redirects for deletion.

As for article creation, I have long since demonstrated the ability to create sourced articles on notable topics (which is the benchmark for article creation). Viewing my edit history will confirm this. If there are exceptions, then please PROD them or otherwise bring them to my attention so the shortcomings can be addressed. Expecting me, or any editor, to create WP:Good articles on the first draft is not reasonable. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. As discussed at WP:Article development, creating sourced Stub articles is an encouraged activity. If the notability of a subject is disputed, then it should be properly PRODed, or otherwise dealt with pursuant to Wikipedia:Deletion policy. Requiring Admins to move my drafts to main space will just create extra work for everyone. Dolovis (talk) 02:00, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

That is all pure BS. You know damn well that his argument isn't about the edit count on your page. It is the actions you are taking to boost it that are the issue. Creating articles that you know don't meet the notability requirement. That you have been told time and again don't meet the notability requirement. That are sourced to stat pages and blogs, which don't meet WP:GNG. All of this has been pointed out to you by a number of editors, your standard response to most people when they point it out is "Its not my job, its up to other people to come along and do it later". Except that it is your job, if you are creating an article you are expected to source it with reliable sources and to make sure they meet the WP:GNG. You have not demonstrated the ability to create sourced stub articles, a quick look through your created pages show that the vast majority are sourced to non-reliable sources. Then when the articles are inevitably deleted for non-notability you wait until you can ask at refund to restore your edit history once the person meets notability. I have even seen cases where you copy and pasted the content of deleted at afd articles (created by other people) where you then pasted the exact copy a month or two later as a "new creation". -DJSasso (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Resolute, I agree that it's a simplification of the concerns but given that ARBCOM very recently unblocked Dolovis and the little evidence that the actions are ongoing now, you'll be unlikely to find any admin will to block on that basis so I'm focusing on a resolution as to what can be shown now. Otherwise, Dolovis doesn't believe it's a problem at all. Just want everyone to be clear. We'll see from others but I still support the proposal as it provides the least amount of disruption to the project overall in exchange for resolving the largest number of concerns at the moment. And Dolovis, are you actually checking these sources in your hurry to create these articles? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Very easy to see it going on right now. Here is one he created within the last month. Only added to it (weeks later) when notified of a prod. [12]. Resolute also showed current examples of his lack of attribution on copy pastes which are current copyvio issues. You can't just focus on the here and now, because that is what the problem has been, here and now we issue a new minor restriction of some sort and he goes on and finds a way to circumvent it or some other policy to flaunt. Perhaps its at the point where it needs to go to Arbcom for a full case. -DJSasso (talk) 02:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I agree but it's not totally objectionable for people to create basic stubs and to pull the information from cross-wiki. ARBCOM is really the place for that kind of thing not ANI. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:13, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• No pulling cross-wiki is fine. But his creation of the article consisted solely of "Marek Sikora is a Polish astronomer." with the only reference being his staff profile. Fine if that is the first edit in a series of edits. But he didn't go back to it until weeks later and it was about to be deleted. Either way I was just using that particular one as an example of its on-going nature. -DJSasso (talk) 03:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Marek Sikora (astronomer) was a listed as a hat note on the Marek Sikora article. Given that he appeared to be notable per WP:NACADEMICS, and had a Polish Wiki article, I chose to create the article rather than just wash the hat note (as I first thought to do). I agree it was a very weak start, and I have since expanded the article with text translated from the corresponding article in Polish. It is currently facing a PROD, and will be deleted unless another editor takes an interest in keeping it. Dolovis (talk) 03:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Yeah so that's basically you guessing that there's enough notability, copying the Polish wiki text (without you independently verifying if it's true at all) and then leaving the really hard work for others, which is why I support the temporary six month topic ban from creating new articles at the moment. Do something else rather than create new stubs as it does sound disruptive. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:21, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Exactly, and that therein is the problem. Guessing at notability without going to the effort of actually providing the sources necessary to prove it. Wasting other editors time who have to prod it, then admins who have to do their own research to see if it is notable and then them deleting it. Even worse if it ends up at Afd where then multiple editors have to do that. If you can't source it to reliable sources then you shouldn't be creating it, if you don't know its notable then you definitely shouldn't be creating it. -DJSasso (talk)

• @Ricky81682:. I'm not asking for a block - though I believe Ravenswing did. I am asking for an end to the time wasting caused by his mass creation of negative value pages. Due to his history, we already have to routinely check for both the existence of sources to meet a GNG pass, and to check that he isn't misrepresenting the paltry sources he does use. And now, given his cavalier response to the copyvio issue, we will have to check for that as well. And this rabbit hole still goes deeper than I have presented here. He routinely creates WP:CRYSTAL articles on potential draft picks a month or two before each year's NHL Entry Draft even though most of those players are not yet notable. For me, that is one instance where I just don't bother because I hate wasting the time of admins and editors at PROD and AFD when some of those articles would just be re-created a month later when notability IS achieved, but it is just another example of Dolovis looking for page creation high scores. In my view, the solution here is an indef ban from creating pages, to be lifted only when he demonstrates - via expanding a good number of his past creations - his willingness to (1) look for and accurately use sources that meet GNG before creation - meaning no more one-reference substubs relying exclusively on a stat sheet or blog ans (2) stop gaming the system via deliberate creation of bad redirects and of topics he knows aren't notable. Ravenswing, DJSasso and myself have been trying for years to hammer home the fact that GNG means non-trivial, substantive coverage in multiple reliable sources. Perhaps once he demonstrates that he will no longer ignore that via expansion and referencing of his past articles, and perhaps once he commits to follow that process going forward, such a ban could be lifted. Resolute 13:27, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support a six-month topic ban of Dolovis creating articles or redirects (uninvolved non admin) This is insane. It creates tons of work for others. Its inconsiderate and is simply gaming the system. I would also Support an indef ban on history merge requests of deleted pages more than a month old to stop the disruption in the future. AlbinoFerret 03:51, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Pursuant to WP:Notability a topic is presumed to merit an article if it meets either the GNG or the criteria outlined in a subject-specific guideline (i.e WP:NHOCKEY or WP:ACADEMIC). Once created, an article may still face deletion pursuant to the deletion policy. This is how Wikipedia works. The Marek Sikora article is the exception to the majority of the work I do on Wikipedia. That article was well-intentioned, and I did verify the sources used in the Polish article, and I still believe he is notable. I fully intended to go back to build the article, which I have done. I believe that my good work far outweighs the weak, and in the interest of resolving this issue I will make a proposition; I will take a voluntary one month break from creating articles, with the hope that Resolute and DJSasso will stop their uncivil comments and harassment towards me. I am a good faith editor who is doing my best to build and improve Wikipedia. Dolovis (talk) 04:02, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

You need more than a month off for those games. Your denail of a problem and trying to lessen the ban time is just IDHT. I think anyone who reads this section will support the bans. You are making work for editors and disrupting the project. AlbinoFerret 04:12, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

So, Dolovis -- you are admitting to doing nothing wrong, and you make no stipulations that you won't start the same behavior all over again 32 days from now ... nor does anything enjoin you from doing so 32 hours from now. What leads you to believe this would be an attractive offer? Ravenswing 06:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Per AlbinoFerret, I likewise support an indef ban from the WP:REFUND process. For anyone following this discussion seeking evidence concerning Dolovis' motives, he doesn't have merely several dozen requests at WP:REFUND, he's featured in several dozen archives. [13] I am very hard put to find an unselfish reason for such Wikilawyering, nor one justifying the time and energy spent by those active in that area to go through his requests. Ravenswing 06:20, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Isn't that a possible contribution history problem? I mean, that's assuming there is actually is a connected history, a refund request would have to required. Isn't the issue that WP:REFUND policy be so liberal (just any request) rather than asking if the request is actually related on a separate editor from the current history which is a different problem? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

If it was a article that had some long term editing that was recreated maybe. But whats being merged is redirects and tiny subs. It takes away the incentive to create them in the first place. To make sure that he is creating articles likely to survive an afd. If it looks like a problem the exception can be added that he ask an admin and point to this section as the reason for asking and an admin can decide if its a real article or just more "Im first" games before asking for a merge. AlbinoFerret 07:11, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support temporary article creation ban, also endorse indef REFUND ban. It looks like Dolovis has a long history of creating articles that have some serious issues with notability, so I think that a temporary ban from creating any new articles in any space (draft, mainspace, redirects, etc) is reasonable. Dolovis, I see you trying to justify your article creation but at no point do I actually see you really owning up to the fact that you've made several articles that had a lot of major issues with them. I feel that giving you a temporary ban will give you the incentive to go over policy and learn how to properly source articles for notability giving purposes. I'll be extremely blunt with this: this has been a long running problem and if things don't change after the temporary ban, you'll likely be facing a permanent ban from creating new articles - if not from editing altogether. I also endorse a permanent ban from requesting article history from REFUND, as I do think that the others make a good case showing that you're really only requesting the article history so you can have the article creation credit - not so you can improve the article. The thing is, numbers mean absolutely squat on Wikipedia. You can make a lot of pages but that doesn't necessarily make you a good editor or even really an asset to Wikipedia if the article quality is poor and others have to run behind you in a struggle to prove notability or delete the articles. Case in point: I remember a user named User:MoonMetropolis that created multiple pages that had serious notability issues. While they were ultimately blocked for sockpuppetry, their poor article creation history definitely gave people another reason to indef them. This is not your first time at ANI, as you've been reported multiple times in the past - and you've already been banned from moving pages. Heck in in 2013 you tried to ask for a topic ban to be removed but everyone successfully argued against giving you these permissions back. You really need to shape up because right now all you're doing is giving yourself enough WP:ROPE to justify someone arguing for you to be indefinitely blocked from editing. To be honest, I'm actually mildly surprised that they aren't asking for an indefinite ban, considering that you've repeatedly been reported at ANI and other boards since you signed up. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:49, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'd actually endorse a longer article creation ban than six months. I'd actually endorse a year, followed by a year's probation where he's only able to create articles via AfC. Considering that this has been an ongoing problem for years now, I'd actually also support an indef ban on mainspace creation and then after a year, he can create articles via AfC. As far as REFUND goes, that's still an indef since it looks like he's only doing this to grandstand, not to actually improve the article - a process that I think could really, really be disheartening to the people who took the time to create a newer version of the article that did pass notability guidelines. If someone other than him requests restoration then that's fine, but I don't think that Dolovis should be allowed to request article restorations any longer. But yeah... the more I think about this the more I support an indef on mainspace creation until he can prove via AfC that he can make a quality article. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Well a new indefinite ban is unlikely since ARBCOM just unblocked Dolovis back in June. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 09:04, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• It looks like he was unblocked from an indefinite block, but I don't think that this would prevent us from giving him an indefinite block from creating articles in the mainspace. From just what I've seen here, it looks like there's plenty reason to justify restricting Dolovis to AfC for the time being (after the year's block is up), until he proves that he can responsibly create articles. The way he's going, if he keeps getting reported at ANI like this then I'd like to think that ARBCOM would likely approve a new block. (BTW, do they need to approve any future blocks on this user? I always got the impression that if the user kept causing trouble and refused to play nice, they could always be re-blocked.) But seriously though, we've restricted other editors to AfC for far less than this and I think that an AfC restriction and a block from REFUND is a reasonable outcome here. He's abused the system and now we need to make sure that he can edit responsibly before giving him the keys to the car/mainspace. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 13:09, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Tokyogirl79 Keeping in mind that a previous editor we referred over to AfC for remedial page creation scrutiny eventually gave up the topic space that they were precieved to be disruptive in and give up new article creation entirely because AfC didn't review the submissions fast enough for their taste. Hasteur (talk) 13:22, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• I'm aware that this might be a problem, but I'm not sure what else will really be beneficial overall. I think that they need to have their work scrutinized before it goes into the mainspace and a temporary ban from mainspace article creation might not solve the issue. I think that turning him to AfC is probably one of the best case scenarios here. On a side note, if he wanted to ask for people to review his submissions (and anyone would be willing to volunteer for that), I have no problem with him asking qualified editors to review his work after he completes an AfC article. The way he's going, I think that a little one on one will likely be quite helpful. I'm willing to volunteer to shoulder part of this load, if he's limited to AfC only for the time being. I'm just worried that if he's allowed back into the mainspace he might do this without actually having learned anything, given that he doesn't seem to really understand why people find his editing habits problematic and even in violation of part of the spirit of Wikipedia. (IE, the landgrab nature that you referred to below, since Dolovis seems to feel that there's a contest for who gets the most entries created.) Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:05, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Note to Delovis: Basically while I know that you're trying to say that you're operating in good faith, if a large amount of people believe that you're doing this for your own personal glory, then that should be a sign that you should stop, pause, and look to check to see if maybe you're doing something wrong. You've been on ANI a lot for various things, all of which tend to center around the same things: creating poor articles and potentially unnecessary redirects and the general consensus seems to be shifting to the idea that you're creating these because you want your article creation numbers to shoot up, not because you're here to edit in a beneficial manner. At some point you really just need to take a look at your editing pattern and ask yourself "maybe it's not them - maybe it's actually me?" Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 15:10, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'd support your version willingly, Tokyogirl79. And as Ricky81682 suggests, the art of the possible is what's in play. Ravenswing 10:41, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Support If we're going to be shunting this editor over to AfC, we probably should make sure they're aware of the influx they're about to get. Also I'd like to see some way of allowing editors reviewing this to have a pre-approved "This submission is not qualified for inclusion" deletion process to deal with these in a more rapid timeframe than CSD:G13 (6 months unedited) or many WP:MFD nominations. If we're going to put pressure on the editor to change their behavior with respect to these creations, we need to not allow the editor to keep the crystal ball collection and then make the land grab of "created the article" once someone else did the work of properly creating the article. Hasteur (talk) 13:28, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

AFC allows pretty much any autoconfirmed user to move articles and numerous articles have been accepted with very questionable results. As such, I propose that Dolovis be restricted to six months unless an admin approves of any drafts in the user's draftspace. It's a higher restriction and a greater burden but it then creates a single point of accountability after the fact. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• It is unfair and punitive to ban me from using WP:REFUND when I was only following the lead of Admin Djsasso who demonstrated to me that such was the encouraged practice when he undeleted the histories of several recreated articles including Anthony Nigro (he now argues such practice is gaming the system). I have never been warned against using WP:REFUND to restore edit histories, and in fact I was under the impression that it should be done for proper attribution. Dolovis (talk) 15:47, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• Restoring an edit history, and creating articles you know will be deleted only to just so you can have the history undeleted to claim the first edit are two very different things. If nothing on the page is from the old version of the page then there is no attribution necessary as I am sure you know. If you are not copying anything why would you need to attribute to authors who didn't contribute to that version of the article. -DJSasso (talk) 16:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• Beyond that, Dolovis, I'll bite: why would you care? What is the benefit, to the encyclopedia, for one name over another to be cited as creator of an article? Our interest should be in complete articles, not in the original one- or two-sentence sub-stub that might have been there in the beginning, right? We're not in this for the glory, after all. Just out of curiosity, how many times have you sought to restore an article history that wouldn't wind up having your name listed as the first edit?

  That being said, "unfair?" It is not "unfair" for us to check your abuse of a process. No one gets gets a free pass to abuse a process just because someone else suggested it to us, in good faith, and expecting us to employ it in good faith. Ravenswing 06:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• It matters because there's a userbox on Dolovis' page to Wikipedia:List of Wikipedians by article count (and as a "tool"). Currently at 111 although the userbox claims to be 43rd. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose a ban on creation of new articles, based on my random look at five creations: 1. Stig-Göran Johansson is a Swedish hockey player in the national hall of fame [14]. Nice find. 2. Sergei Yemelin is a young fully professional Russian hockey player. That's an auto-keep at AfD, no problems. Single sourced but there are two links that could have been made into sources as easily. 3. Dallas W. Anderson is a medical devices entrepreneur. The piece has a bit of the gross paid editing smell and would be less than 50-50 at AfD, in my estimation. 4. Mikael Saha is a fully professional Finnish hockey player. Another auto-keep at AfD. 5. Lukáš Jašek is a fully professional Czech hockey player. It was created without diacritical marks, and I suppose therein lies the rub with some people.. Still, this looks like a legitimate content person who is helping Wikipedia and I see no issues either with the creations or the sourcing, at a glance. Carrite (talk) 15:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• His mass creation of two sentence sub-stubs of European elite players is annoying, but ultimately not at the root of my complaint. Also, given he has created thousands of these two sentence sub stubs, the odds of you finding many of them at random are high. To give you a good idea of my complaints, and perhaps the scope of what you need to look for should your offer to mentor come to be, I would point you to his most recent creations:

1. Santeri Vuoti - Source does not explicitly support the statement it references. Probably would be WP:ROUTINE anyway. (Player is barely presumed notable for having played 15 Liiga games last year, however. No indication a search was done for substantive coverage in reliable third party sources though).
2. Vladimir Eminger - Source is basically the hockey team's main page. In short, source does not support the statement it references.
3. Quebec NHL team - Plagiarism, internal copyvio, crystal balling. Blatant attempt to score first edit on a proposed hockey team that does not exist.
4. Las Vegas NHL team - Plagiarism, internal copyvio, crystal balling. Blatant attempt to score first edit on a proposed hockey team that does not exist.
5. Chris Durand (ice hockey) - WP:XY-violating redirect of a non-notable player, created to get a first edit, and despite having links of this exact type deleted multiple times at RFD. This is routine.
6. Pier-Olivier Pelletier - Same as above; 100 more at RFD now, and I'll be nominating 33 more later today (Mostly, but not entirely, created by Dolovis)
7. NHL coach of the year and NHL Coach of the Year - not a great concern as they are marginally plausible search terms. He may not be aware that the search engine ignores capitalization, so didn't realize he didn't need to create both.
8. 2017 Stanley Cup playoffs - Unnecessary redirect created massively prematurely and only to score a first edit. This is routine.
9. Self-portrait without beard - WP:SYNTH as he clearly has not read or used the sources, and only copied from another article while rewording statements from that one.
10. Flower Beds in Holland - Standard redirect to an alternative title. No issues there.

• Going a little farther back, we have the one-sentence, CSD A1 eligible creation of the astronomer that he was shamed into expanding via a PROD tag. Without people there to PROD him into putting bare effort into things, he does things like this, where he simply throws an {{Update}} tag on one of his own articles because he can hardly be bothered to update his thousands of creations himself. And given he creates articles on not-yet-notable players (like Pavel Karnaukhov) and then fails to defend them at PROD because he knows he can just abuse WP:REFUND later, I would say that bans from various processes, including and especially REFUND and redirect creation, are strictly necessary. But as demonstrated above, even when he creates articles on players that strictly pass SNGs, he misrepresents sources and makes no effort to find substantive coverage. That is something I would like to see him demonstrate he is capable of without being watched before I would back down from requesting a page creation ban entirely. Resolute 16:31, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Not wanting to spend my whole day on this, #2 above (a clear SNG Keep) could have the fact of first season documented from one of the external links showing just as easily. #3 above (and presumably #4) could be de-crystal-balled with a retitling to 2015 Quebec City NHL bid, which would be a GNG pass. Agreed that the "2017 Stanley Cup playoffs" is massively premature, but all this all smacks of gross exaggeration of the actual problem presented by what seems to be a good-faith editor... Carrite (talk) 17:46, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Passing a SNG does not automatically mean a keep. If they fail to prove the notability when challenged (and a player that close to the bare minimum likely would be) they still can end up getting deleted. It specifically lays this out in the SNG. Not to mention the external links to stats pages are not reliable sources to proove notability. But as Resolute points out he creates thousands of articles so its not surprise you would find some two sentence ones, no one is claiming every single article is bad, just that a significant percentage to the point of being disruptive are. -DJSasso (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd be entertained if you could show me a couple times when a bio of a hockey player in a fully professional league has ended in deletion at AfD. It simply does not happen. If he was doing stubs of professional croquet players, those might be close. But hockey? Uh, no. Carrite (talk) 22:39, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Sure I will look some up. Dolovis, himself has had a number deleted. Non-North American professionals are very frequently deleted due to the varying coverage of fully professional players in different countries. -DJSasso (talk) 00:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I respect that you wish to AGF, Carrite, but I've been seeing these for years. These mistakes are not new, and they are not going away because Dolovis does not care. He is not here to improve the project, he is here to get his high scores and leave the clean-up to others. And that has been his MO for the entire time he's been a Wikipedian. And for the entire time he's been a Wikipedian, the only times his behaviour has been altered is through either community imposed restrictions, or a block for sockpuppetry. Six separate RFDs were not enough to cause Dolovis to stop creating bad redirects. It was only after this report and the risk of shutting his game down entirely became apparent to him that he suddenly decided that he would honour "a new consensus" - which is actually a year and a half old, at least. Ravenswing, DJSasso and I have been dealing with the mess he makes for years, and we'll all tell you the same thing: He will abuse any process he can as far as he can abuse it. And I think Arbcom recognizes this as well, given his attempt to have one of his restrictions lifted ended with a blunt "you can be restricted, or you can be blocked" response. To respond to your comments above: #1 and #2 above could be fixed by finding non-trivial sources that properly cite his claims and then properly inserting those sources, but he won't do that. #3 and #4, could have just waited until teams were actually announced - but that risks his not getting the first edit (and the expansion bid stuff is already covered at Potential National Hockey League expansion). They are also plagiarism. And his massively premature examples are ongoing and annual. It's all about getting first edits. Always has been. Resolute 19:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Carrite, you're missing the forest in favor of picking out a handful of stumps. Quite aside from that notability is a dynamic process -- someone who hasn't achieved notability might well do so years down the road -- of course Dolovis has created some articles that pass notability muster. It would be astonishing if, with the several thousand articles and redirects he's made, he hadn't scored the occasional hit. And I know this as well as anyone; when I filed those 75 AfDs on sub-stubs he'd created a year or so back, there were several stubs I didn't file on, because I judged they passed notability muster.

  That's not the point. You've been around the block, and you know that any number of banned or indeffed editors made some productive edits along the line. Some have had many thousands of productive edits -- people like Betacommand and Mick McNee come to mind. They were sanctioned because the disruption their antics caused not only outweighed the productive edits they made, but caused good editors to quit the project out of frustration.

  Never mind the effect they have on editors who don't quit. Take a look at my contribution history from January of 2014 [15]. I made over 500 edits that month, and easily two-thirds of them involved AfDing non-notable sub-stubs Dolovis created. That time spent didn't count, of course, research I did to ensure the ones I AfDed weren't notable. That time spent constituted time I didn't spend building the encyclopedia; it was time spent cleaning up after messes. Frankly, I don't consider the occasional sound contribution Dolovis makes worth that much time. I don't consider it worth your time as a "mentor," or worth the time it's going to take you to review a subject's notability, not when it takes away from article creation you could be doing. I don't consider it worth the time it sucks from the likes of JohnCD at REFUND. I don't consider it worth the time we've had to spend tightening the NHOCKEY guidelines you cited because despite overwhelming and frequent consensus in a number of discussions, Dolovis routinely ignores consensus where there isn't an explicit black-letter rule.

  I'm unhappy enough at a six-month ban, because just like every other time, we're going to have this all to do over again seven months from now. I think he's had too many chances as it is, over too many years. Ravenswing 05:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support ban on article creation, unless pre-vetted for notability as Carrite has helpfully offered below. From working at WP:REFUND, I am aware of much time wasted on the following often-repeated cycle: (1) Dolovis creates an article about a hockey-player, (2) it is discussed at AfD and deleted as non-notable, (3) months or years later the player becomes notable and an article is created, (4) Dolovis comes to REFUND to ask for his deleted edits to be restored to the history beneath the new article. Steps 1,2 and 4 of this cycle are pure waste motion and do nothing for the encyclopedia. Examples here (3 instances) and here (another 4) on just one archive page. JohnCD (talk) 21:48, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I've been through the ropes at AfD and if it is judged that Dolovis needs a pre-check on notability of new creations from a mentor before being able to launch them, I hereby offer to serve that role for a six month period. I will report back at the end of that period with the results. Ping me if you wish to go this route. Carrite (talk) 15:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Quick reference to the Special Notability Guideline for hockey might be of use for this debate:

Ice hockey players are presumed notable if they
[1] Played one or more games in an existing or defunct top professional league;
[2] Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant;
[3] Played at least 200 games (90 games for a goaltender) or achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, First Team All-Star) in top-level minor leagues or second tier national leagues;
[4] Achieved preeminent honors (all-time top ten career scorer, First Team All-Star, All-American) in a lower minor league, in a major junior league, or in a major collegiate hockey league (Note: merely playing in a major junior league or major collegiate hockey is not enough to satisfy inclusion requirements);
[5] Were a first-round draft pick in the NHL Entry Draft;
[6] Played on a senior national team (such as at the Olympic Games or World Championship); or

[7] Are an honored member of a national or multinational hockey Hall of Fame.

A large percentage of the recent work by this editor has involved the creation of stub bios of young professional players and prospects. There seems to me to be good faith, given how low the SNG bar is set (just one game played in a fully pro league is a Speedy Keep at AfD). Carrite (talk) 00:12, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you understand how SNGs work. They do not cause a "Speedy Keep". It lays out right at the top of them that meeting these does not mean an article must be kept. Not to mention these particular ones don't mention "fully pro" as a number of fully pro leagues do not meet them as explained in the note below the list which you didn't copy over. Some fully pro leagues require 200 games, other fully pro leagues require a first-all star award win etc. -DJSasso (talk) 00:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, no, that's not reality. SNGs are special "low bars" to inclusion (or "high bars" in the case of politicians) to be considered in conjunction with GNG. And trust me when I say that a nomination which clearly passes a SNG criterion is almost invariably shut down at once with a Speedy Keep. One NHL game played and the debate is shut down, regardless of what it says at the top of the page. This is also true for baseball, soccer, American football, and basketball — one game in a top professional league and we're done... Carrite (talk) 14:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Which is why I'm unsure as to the relevance of the point. We're not talking about sub-stubs that Dolovis has created for players who've played in top-level professional leagues -- although I grit my teeth that he seldom, if ever, bothers with anything more than the two sentences of fact and the bare reference or two that's the irreducible minimum required to clear WP:BLP. We're talking about articles he creates of players who do NOT qualify, over which there's been many a tussle over the years, followed by the inevitable PROD, followed by Dolovis' inevitable removal of the PROD with a bald "Is notable" (if he bothers with an edit summary at all), followed by the inevitable AfD, followed by Dolovis going straight to DRV or REFUND should the subject achieve notability down the road.

And here's the effect on our workload: in the last two years, judging solely from the edit summaries on his talk page history, he's received notification of seven CSDs, seven copyvios, nine prods, 81 RFDs, 131 AfDs ... and despite his suggestion that the fuss is due to a vendetta a couple editors have against him, these have been filed by over two dozen different editors. After five years, over 50K edits, six blocks, multiple topic bans and edit restrictions, and several hundred articles going through deletion processes, at what point do we admit that this isn't a case of him not knowing any better as opposed to a massive IDHT? Ravenswing 15:26, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

It has been pointed out on my talk page that I inadvertently omitted the word "top." We are speaking of TOP fully professional leagues: NHL, not AHL, for example. Carrite (talk) 14:54, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• I think that there is general agreement that there is a problem. I do think that a process of "pre-approval" of new starts for notability which does not tax the bogged down Articles for Creation queue should be sufficient rather than destroying the editor's usefulness to the project, which is making sure that our hockey coverage is as complete as it can be. There is a pretty clear consensus that his redirects of drafted players with no biographies needs to stop. The inclusion rules are fairly definite for specific hockey biographies and AfD outcome can be projected with great accuracy. Carrite (talk) 16:45, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I suggested he get an admin's approval so it's not just one person and it's not just a giant slog at AFC (which lets some problematic things though anyways). I can't recall where but that's been done before. It's mostly been redirects being created anyways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 00:25, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support six-month article creation and REFUND ban, mentorship notwithstanding. This has some unpleasant similarities to the events leading up to this Arbitration case: wildly prolific creator of stubs refusing to work in a more cooperative fashion, long-running, apparently trivial dispute, and well-meaning but ineffective attempts at outsider intervention, which ended in disaster. This goes well beyond the question of "are most of his articles notable or not?" It's about the strain being placed on community processes like REFUND, PROD, on the hockey project due to litigation over guidelines, and so on. In the big picture of hockey coverage, it's more important to keep the project healthy and editors in general happy and active than it is to write a lot of poor-quality stubs, because they're much less likely to get expanded if the people who could improve them have reduced their activity or quit in disgust. Dolovis says he became "active as an editor to work to improve such articles". Great. Let him do that for six months and let's see where we stand. Carrite, I know your desire to help is sincere, but I suspect that as a mentor, you're going to wind up being drawn into the role of champion for Dolovis, ("But, see, that turned out to be barely notable when I dug up a bunch of sources. Don't pick on my mentee! He needs help!"), which is only going to increase the emotional temperature here. (This isn't a reflection on your personality, but on the difficulty of mentoring in these situations.) Having Dolovis stand down on the stubs for a while won't prevent the articles from being created, and it looks like it will save a whole lot of process wrangling and/or administrator time. Choess (talk) 15:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support ban in either AlbinoFerret or Tokyogirl's version. Drmies (talk) 00:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Closure?

Discussion seems to have reached an end point. Is there perhaps an uninvolved admin that might close this one way or another? Resolute 12:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Dolovis has accepted mentorship, so hopefully an administrator will close this report on that note. GoodDay (talk) 13:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I think consensus has clearly gone to some sort of restriction. But yes, an uninvolved admin will make the call. -DJSasso (talk) 13:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

That an admin another editor has offered to mentor Dolovis, and that he has accepted the offer, is very well and good. For my part, I'm not mollified. An offer of mentorship from a non-admin -- especially in reference to overseeing an admin-dependent new article approval process -- is scarcely grounds to say "Well, that's alright then" and forget about the whole thing. I stand on my support of an unconditional six month (or, if possible, indef) ban on new article creation and a permanent ban on using the REFUND process, which I believe remains the consensus opinion. Ravenswing 06:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

That, and he's only jumping at mentorship to try and skate by any sanctions. Resolute 18:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

If Dolovis were to ignore or go against his mentor's advice? a ban on article creation can always be imposed. GoodDay (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Or the ban on article creation can happen now, and he can work with his mentor to improve his editing overall. Personally, I think his interest in having a mentor would rapidly diminish if his games were ended against his will. Resolute 03:00, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Darn, beat me to it, Resolute. Honestly, GoodDay, if this was just a matter of him needing to be trout-slapped in order to edit in an unselfish and productive manner, this would be an entirely different proceeding. But Dolovis is a smart guy who's been around for years. I'm firmly convinced, through years of seeing his interactions and how these conflicts spin out, that it's not a matter of him not knowing any better; I give him more credit than that. It's that he doesn't care, when consensus, guidelines or the spirit of the law conflict with his goals. Do you really think he's going to be any better six months from now, when he's still up to the same gamesmanship just a couple months after coming off of an indef block? When he's already operating under two topic bans, an interaction ban and an edit restriction? Ravenswing 05:58, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree. The mentorship is fine but I still believe Dolovis should still be banned from creating any articles without the approval of any administrator. Since his mentor is an admin, good that's works out but I don't want to hear in six months that the mentor took a break or didn't say "NO" and there was nothing else Dolovis could do as an excuse. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

If the reference is to me, I will point out that I'm not an administrator and have no intention of becoming one. Carrite (talk) 15:05, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually ... this might work to our advantage. While I'm of a mind with Resolute that Dolovis' interest in a mentorship will vanish quickly if it doesn't come with a softening of sanctions, this is his chance to prove us wrong and demonstrate good faith going forward. Putting the work in on his end for six months, without any direct tangible benefit, would go some way to convincing people that there's been a genuine change. Ravenswing 05:32, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Can someone close this, discussion has been pretty much dead for awhile now. -DJSasso (talk) 03:30, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, Dolovis hasn't been around for over a week, now. GoodDay (talk) 19:41, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Any uninvolved admins around to formally close this thing? Canuck^{89 (have words with me)} 04:46, September 14, 2015 (UTC)

I have asked for a close on WP:ANRFC here is a link[16]] AlbinoFerret 06:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. -DJSasso (talk) 12:37, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Restoring history of deleted articles

This discussion has made me think about our practice of restoring the history of deleted articles on request when they are re-created. That is clearly necessary when the new article is based on the old one, but different author(s) of the old one need to be attributed; but where the new article is not based on the old one, or where its author is the same as the only author of the old one, it seems pointless.

I suggest that we should restore histories only when necessary for attribution. That would remove the incentive for the practice described above, of writing premature articles about non-notable players in the hope of getting "first-author" credit if the subject eventually becomes notable. Unless there is strong disagreement, I shall propose this at WT:REFUND. JohnCD (talk) 16:08, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

One of the challenges there is that Dolovis was abusing a combination of PROD and REFUND. Without changing the policies around the former, I'm not sure how you mitigate issues such as this with the latter. This is one of the reasons why he whined earlier in this thread about Ravenswing's AFDs and said they could have been PRODs instead - PRODs are easier for him to have restored. Resolute 18:26, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Restoring PRODs at REFUND is not a problem - they must be restored on request (unless they are speediable as copyvio or attack), but they can be taken to AfD. If one knows the article author is likely to dePROD, the answer is to save time by going direct to AfD. The issue I am raising is about requests to restore the history of deleted premature articles about non-notable persons who later become notable. A discussion has been started at WT:REFUND#Denying refund requests to avoid gamesmanship. JohnCD (talk) 20:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Robert Martinson problems

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs) has long been banned from article creation for his massive disregard for copyright. He has a great number of subpages on his user page, all intended as potential articles for others to move into main article space. Recently a new editor copypasted one of these subpages, creating the article Robert Martinson. The first thing I noticed about the page (unaware of its provenance) was the obvious copyvios, numerous quotations in the references. I deleted the copyvios, thinking they were rookie mistakes, and then I added information and sources. In the meantime, Richard had asked a third party to fix the article's history by moving his original subpage over the page, leading the third party to restore the copyvios and erase my changes.

Now it's a very minor mess, and I'm not sure what the proper way forward is. Plan A is to just revert and move on. Plan B is asking here, and I've opted for Plan B. I'll mention the new editor created some other pages that may have the same copypaste/copyvio issues, I just briefly looked. Richard's other subpages may also be problems, I have not looked.

I have not named the two other editors, both seem to have acted GF, and if either needs to be told something constructive, presumably their Talk pages suffice. While Richard also seems GF here, this looks like he still does not seem to get copyvio. (And I have no idea of the fine points of his ban.) Choor monster (talk) 15:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• If you think using the quote parameter in the citation templates is "obvious copyvios" and you "deleted the copyvios" you really need to study the fair use policy at Wikipedia fair use policy page. The policy currently reads: "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea." The only violation of Wikipedia copyright policy and plagiarism policy was by the user who copy and pasted my work and attributed it to themselves. They contacted me when they realized they had made an error, and I contacted Sandstein to correct it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I was the admin whom Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) asked to fix the copypaste article creation by another editor by moving the article history from his user space into mainspace. I was then not aware of his article creation ban, but another admin pointed me to this request and linked to WP:ARBRAN. I am now deleting the article Robert Martinson as an arbitration enforcement action: The ban was apparently made because Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) has previously violated copyright, and therefore the prohibition extends to all articles based wholly on his work, whether or not it was he who moved them into mainspace. This should settle the matter as far as I'm concerned, unless anybody wants to consider sanctions for any involved editor via WP:AE.  Sandstein  18:09, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Deleting it was improper, if you had doubts, you should have migrated it back to User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Robert Martinson and not delete it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:59, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Copyright violations are not allowed anywhere on Wikipedia, so if an admin finds sufficient copyvios in a mainspace article to delete it, sending it back or restoring it to userspace would be irresponsible. BMK (talk) 04:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Using the quote feature built into the citation templates is not a violation of copyright, it is the definition of the Wikipedia sanctioned fair-use policy. You are welcome to argue about how much material constitutes fair-use at the Wikipedia fair use policy page. The policy currently reads: "Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea." If you think that the definition of Wikipedia fair-use is wrong, then you should lobby to have the quotation feature contained in over 100,000 citations removed from all of Wikipedia. Removing them adhoc from one article is not the way to do it. While I am blocked from moving articles into mainspace there is no restriction from others moving them into mainspace at my request or by me giving permission for someone asking to move it. However, it is a violation of copyright and a violation of rules against plagiarism to copy and paste my work into a new article under the name of another author. If you think that me quoting the New York Times and properly attributing it is a copyright violation, then you also have to believe that me quoting Wikipedia policy above is a copyright violation, weird world isn't it? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Except that you don't actually need the extended quotations in the footnotes at all. Footnote quotes should only really be used where the source is large and/or difficult to navigate (i.e. no page numbers) so that the reader may struggle to find the source for the citation, or the source contains differing viewpoints so that it is necessary to pinpoint the actual sentence you are using as a source. In this case, neither applies. Black Kite (talk) 19:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

That is your personal interpretation of the policy and you should should state that it is your personal interpretation. You are presenting it as fact. The exact wording of facts from the original source prevents semantic drift, we have no idea if the source material will be available in 10 years, 100 years, 1,000 years, or 10,000 years. The original article may read that someone was "from a farm near Fooville", the next editor may rewrite to read that he was "born on a farm near Fooville" and the next editor may change it to "born in Fooville" and the next "born in Fooville, New Jersey. Each small change causes the information to drift slightly and that drift may or may-not be correct, every editor does this when they change wording. The reader has no idea that drift is taking place, unless presented with the original source material. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:49, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• What you're saying is that including the copyvio quote simply saves editors from looking up the RS. That's not an acceptable reason. Choor monster (talk) 19:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

No, what I am saying is exactly what I wrote, re-read it. Once again you are using the inflammatory "copyvio" for fair-use as defined by Wikipedia policy. If you cannot discuss it in neutral terms you are purposefully being inflammatory. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Response to RAN/ec) In the article in question, you had more full sentence quotation from five NYT articles than you had written in the body of the article. That in itself is ridiculous. Worse, your quotations met none of FUR. Nothing except laziness or incompetence prevented you from summarizing the contents of the NYT articles and leaving out the actual quotations. We're not here for pull-quote journalism.
• The quote parameter is for responsible usage.
• I recently created an article Kelayres massacre, over 20K, with fifty footnotes, and I incorporated a grand total of one quotation, from an editorial, since the exact tone seemed to be just as essential to the whole story as the factual content of the editorial (which may, in fact, have been very little). (And there were two FUR pictures, and one PD picture which I asked about on WP:MCQ, just to play it safe.) You? You're not even trying. Choor monster (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Well you are awesome that is why your articles do not use the quote feature. However, using words like "obvious copyvios" and "incompetence" makes you less awesome. You are inserting your opinion and personal style as as Wikipedia law. If you do not like using the quote parameter, do not use it. If you think it should never be used, lobby to have it removed globally at the talk page for fair-use policy. Also, Wikipedia:FUR policy is for images. Also, we are not journalists, so I am not using "pull-quote journalism", we are writing a reference-work. Journalists use primary sources, reference-work writers rely primarily on secondary and tertiary sources. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 19:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

My opinion seems to be the consensus opinion. I think it should be used. As I said: responsibly. I'll point out I use it frequently over on Wiktionary, since presenting exact quotations over there serves an accepted educational purpose. Choor monster (talk) 20:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• If it was Wikipedia policy you would have already quoted me the chapter and verse where it is specifically stated as I have already done above. We all have high opinions of our own opinions, but that doesn't make them Wikipedia policy, it is just magical thinking. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• RAN: Given that there's still a lot of work left to do at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20111108, and WP:ARBRAN specifically states "in order for appeals of this remedy to be considered, he shall be required to submit evidence of substantial work on his part towards resolving the Contributor Copyright Investigations filed against him, most particularly the one focused on his text contributions" (referring to the ban on article creation), why are you not doing that before you create articles? —SpacemanSpiff 19:34, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• (ec) So now RAN is creating draft articles with the same kind of copyright problems he will not acknowledge to even exist. Copyright infringement in the Draft space is the same as copyright infringement in the mainspace. It's certainly a violation in spirit, if not the letter, of ARBRAN. Is it time for an amendment to that case? KrakatoaKatie 19:45, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your outrage, but again "copyright infringement" is incorrect, you clearly have a limited understanding of fair-use as defined by the United States Supreme Court or by Wikipedia policy of fair-use. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:02, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

What SCOTUS permits is irrelevant to us. Citing it is a red-herring, and a serious sign that you don't get WP and WP:COPYVIO. We hold by our own stricter policies. What newspapers and journals and the like do under Fair Use is not something we're supposed to imitate. Choor monster (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Once again, please stop saying it is in the Bible, just read the Bible. If you are quoting exact Wikipedia policy quote me the exact chapter and verse. This is not the first time I have asked you to quote policy, and not express your opinion as if it were policy. Note that I quoted you the exact text of the Wikipedia policy on fair-use and put it in quotations above, which under your opinion, is a copyright violation. I directly quoted a copyrighted source. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

First, I'm not outraged. Nothing on this website gives me an emotion that remotely approaches outrage. Second, when you've spent the hundreds of hours I have cleaning up copyright problems, we'll talk about who understands copyright and who does not. The NFCC policy clearly states that Wikipedia uses a more stringent standard than does US copyright law. Either you get that or you don't. If you get it, you'll stop what you're doing now. If you don't, you'll be forced to stop what you're doing later. Up to you. KrakatoaKatie 21:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Cleaning up a pile of poop off the bathroom floor does not mean you have the equivalent of an M.D. in proctology or have a Ph.D. in scatology. If you think the "more stringent standard" applies, then work to define it. You can lobby that quotes can be no more than three sentences, or two sentences, or one sentence, or three words. You can lobby that the title of books, and the title of news articles, be restricted to the first three words or the first three letters. You can lobby to have the quote parameter removed from all the citation templates. Until then you are just expressing your personal opinion of how you interpret the Wikipedia fair-use, which is fine. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:43, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• Of course Wikimedia policy is based on United States case law, to deny it is just silly. Every image loaded to Wikimedia commons that is in the public domain in the source country must also be in the public domain under United States law because our servers are based here in the United States. We decided that images from the National Portrait Gallery loaded to Wikipedia followed United States law despite being served with takedown notice in the National Portrait Gallery and Wikimedia Foundation copyright dispute. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:22, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
  • A non-sequitur. WP:CIR for articles and Talk discussions. Choor monster (talk) 20:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Now you are quoting essays, at least that is a step up from saying that your personal opinion is Wikipedia policy, but you are still telling people to read the Bible, again cite the chapter and verse or quote what you are referring to. "Go read the Bible, the answer is there" is never useful. If you found something relevant in the essay WP:CIR, then quote it to me, don't tell me to read it and guess which sentence you found relevant. Thank you. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

More to the point, you haven't answered the question posed by SpacemanSpiff above. There is still a huge amount outstanding at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20111108. Why are you not cleaning those issues up before creating new articles? After all, that's exactly what the sanction stated. Black Kite (talk) 21:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I have not found any, that is why. Spending the next ten years certifying that the previous ten years of edits do not contain any copyright violations, is a waste of time. If there are any more clear examples, a bot can find them, and I will fix them. Copyright isn't subjective, if a bot cannot find them, how can I be expected to? When we have people who think they understand copyright and fair-use, that do not ... as per the comments above, there really is no way of satisfying their manufactured outrage. During the ANI someone said that my quoting a 1905 New York Times article was a copyright violation. And, by the way, my new articles in my user space are awesome. The people I write about deserve no less. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 22:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

While CorenSearchBot flags any new articles that contain copyright violations, there is no bot that checks existing Wikipedia articles for copyright violations. That task has to be done by hand, one diff at a time. -- Diannaa (talk) 01:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

It just needs to be modified to run against the current state of an article and not the first edit of an article. And of course it needs to be run against all of Wikipedia and rank articles on a scale from 1 to 10. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:41, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

No, that's not possible. First, we pay for CSB to do its searches, and the burden of doing this against all articles is astronomically higher than the burden of doing this against new articles. Also, new articles are considerably less likely to find Wikipedia mirrors (legitimate or otherwise) and, when they do, that often highlights another problem - unattributed splitting. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• I suggest the nuclear option. Since the only possible reason for RAN to create new articles in his user space (there are scores of them) is so someone will move them into mainspace, thereby circumventing his article-creation ban, I would think, following Sandstein's point, that they should all be deleted. If RAN is interested in editing Wikipedia, there's plenty of work to be done on existing articles, or, as SpacemanSpiff and Black Kite suggest, he could stop bitching that it will take "10 years" to fix all his copyright violations, and just get to work fixing them. It's not as if he started to do so and then gave up, he's never helped to fix his copyright problems, ever. If he had spent all the time between the institution of the ban and now helping to fix his copyright violations -- instead of creating new articles in his user space with more copyright violations -- he might not be finished, but he'd have a damn good case for having his ban lifted due to his services in cleaning up the mess he had made. Instead, RAN continues to refuse to concede that there are any copyright violations, despite the very clear community and ArbCom consensus that there are, and a major form of them was his extensive misuse of the quote parameter. BMK (talk) 02:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Struck statement per Sphilbrick's comment in the section below. BMK (talk) 18:00, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Please stop the manufactured outrage and please do not libel me with "he's never helped to fix his copyright problems, ever." Anyone can see all the work I have done simply by looking at the first 100 articles I created in 2005-2006 and then seeing the post ANI changes I made to them. I removed the hidden text of the source documents that I was using to write the biographies. I trimmed long quotations and reworded Air Force *.mil biographies which may/may-not be government public domain. User:Beyond My Ken and I have been antagonistic for years, and he uses every opportunity to try and get me banned permanently. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

No outrage -- is that going to be your standard attack on your critics? -- just a possible solution to the problem you have made, which is to delete all your user space articles as straight-forward violations of your topic ban to not create articles. I recognize that there are other possible solutions, such as your being indef-blocked, or some combination of the various choices. BMK (talk) 08:24, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• If there is some doubt whether the articles in his user space are typical RAN creations -- which is to say. abusive of the quote parameter to an extent that they are copyvios, I would suggest that Moonriddengirl or some other admin well-versed in copyright matter take a look at a random sampling of his user-space articles, and use the result of that examination to determine if the nuclear option is a viable choice or not. Alternately, they can all be tagged with G12 speedy deletion templates, and individual admins can decide on a case-by-case basis. Either way, I have never understood why RAN has been allowed to take the path he has, which is to clearly thumb his nose at his topic ban - one that was first put in place by the community, and then endorsed and taken over by ArbCom. BMK (talk) 03:10, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Awesome that you can read minds too: "clearly thumb his nose at his topic ban". --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:38, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't have to read your mind, it's easy enough for everyone to read your actions, and your words speak for themselves. BMK (talk) 05:52, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Pinging @Moonriddengirl:, which I forgot to do above. BMK (talk) 03:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• The quotation parameter is a fine parameter when used in moderation (and completely unproblematic when used with public domain or compatibly licensed material), but the idea that it should be used to archive the content in case the source becomes unavailable in the future is not supported by WP:NFC, which tries in simple language to explain the transformative use of quotations. Capturing the content for fear that it won't be available later is not on that list - if anything, that's far more likely to be seen as competitive with the original publication, as we eliminate the need for our readers to access the original. In terms of reviewing the drafts, I think it would be better if somebody with less history dealing with RAN's copyright issues undertake this, BMK. :/ --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 14:44, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• That's understandable. BMK (talk) 18:37, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• RAN: Please explain how this is in line with our fair use policy. This is now becoming a case of having to update the original CCI and waste yet more time of other editors and as KrakatoaKatie suggests above, it's time for an amendment to the case to stop any more addition of content, period. Given that this is a two day old violation and that our fair use policy is more strictly implemented in user space, any admin is welcome to take an AE action here (I just don't have the time or inclination to looking at the history right now to do so myself). —SpacemanSpiff 03:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• You need to explain how it violates fair-use policy, since you are making the accusation. "Our fair use policy is more strictly implemented in user space." Where is that rule coming from? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 05:00, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• WP:Non-free content criteria#Policy

  9. Restrictions on location. Non-free content is allowed only in articles (not disambiguation pages), and only in article namespace, subject to exemptions. (emphasis added)

  BMK (talk) 05:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

That is image policy, it states that the file has to be deleted. No fair-use images on user pages. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

No, once again you show your ignorance. WP:NFCC isn't just about images, it's about any non-free content, visual or textual. Someday you ought to read the policy so that you can actually follow it.

Policy

There is no automatic entitlement to use non-free content in an article or elsewhere on Wikipedia. Articles and other Wikipedia pages may, in accordance with the quotation style guideline, use brief verbatim textual excerpts from copyrighted media, properly attributed or cited to its original source or author (as described by the citation guideline), and specifically indicated as direct quotations via quotation marks, <blockquote>, or a similar method. Other non-free content—including all copyrighted images, audio and video clips, and other media files that lack a free content license—may be used on the English Wikipedia only where all 10 of the following criteria are met.

#9 I quoted above comes directly after this in the same section. It applies to all non-free content. BMK (talk) 08:30, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• What's strange is that the quote is totally unnecessary. It does not provide any pertinent information that's not in the article, except for the name of the Governor, which is in the title of the article cited. BMK (talk) 03:36, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• WP:ARBRAN has this to say: Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) is strongly admonished for creating multiple copyright violations throughout Wikipedia and failing to adhere to the project's expected standards and policies with regards to non-free content. He is warned that continued violations of this nature are likely to result in an indefinite block from editing. I don't see anything restricting that remedy to article space; perhaps it's time for an indef block? Whether through AE or ARCA I'm not sure. GoldenRing (talk) 04:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Lest we forget, although it doesn't come into play in this discussion, RAN is actually subject to twin topic bans. The one we've been referring to here disallows him from creating new articles, and its twin disallows him from uploading images to en.wiki. The reason for this was also copyright-related, as part of the restriction is that if he uploads a copyright-violating image to Commons and uses it on en.wiki, it will be treated as a copyright violation to en.wiki. Clearly, when ArbCom made these restrictions -- which can be found at WP:Editing restrictions -- they had absolutely no faith that RAN understood what is and isn't a copyright violation, which is a powerful reason for ignoring his commentary here regarding copy-vios: he simply doesn't know what he's talking about. BMK (talk) 06:01, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

By your definition we cannot use the title of news articles, remember they are also copyrighted. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:12, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

No, you see, once again you've shown that you don't know what you're talking about, since titles are specifically not copyrightable. BMK (talk) 06:15, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Short phrase headlines are not copyrightable, however headlines such as: "Gen. E. A. M'Alpin Dies At Ossining. Former Adjutant General of New York Stricken at His Country Home in His 69th Year. Long in National Guard. Tobacco Merchant and Republican Leader Owned Land on Which Hotel McAlpin Stands." It would not constitute a "short phrase" because it contains original expression. "General McAlpin Dies" would not be copyrightable as a headline since it states non-copyrightable facts under the "short phrase" rule. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:16, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, SpacemanSpiff quotes from WP:ARBRAN above, where ArbCom endorses and take up the community ban. It refers to this AN/I thread, in which it was decided to make permanent the initial temporary ban. That initial ban can be found here, where it is phrased as: "[H]e is banned specifically from creating new articles and from page moves". (Note that there's no specification of where the new articles are created.) So, given this clear ban, why, when I look at RAN's talk page, do I see that he is submitting his user space articles to WP:Articles for Creation? Does he somehow think that the fact that someone else pushes the button to make his article appear in mainspace absolves him of his restriction from creating new articles, and that asking other people to make page moves for him doesn't mean that the page move is essentially his? What he is doing is clearly Wikilawyering around his sanctions and pushing hard against the boundaries of his bans by enlisting other editors and AfC as his proxies. That he has gotten away with this behavior for so long is pretty amazing, actually. BMK (talk) 06:23, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• My summary: A properly attributed quote is not a copyright violation either under United States copyright law or Wikipedia !law. If you want to restrict all quotations to a single sentence or a single word, then lobby to make that so. The only clear copyright violation was by the user that cut-and-pasted my nascent user-space article and put it in mainspace and attributed it to themselves. It was corrected, when the cut-and-paster contacted me, by Sandstein and there was with no ill will toward the cut-and-paster by me. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Your understanding of US copyright law, the fair-use doctrine, and Wikipedia's NFCC policy (which is deliberately more restrictive) is fundamentally flawed, as shown by your past history, your current actions, and your commentary in this thread. You appear to be making it up as you go along, without truly understanding the real issues, or why your actions contravene your sanctions. You have, in a variety of ways, violated your topic bans, apparently very deliberately so -- just as you violated your community-placed ban before the case went to ArbCom, where you were not slapped on the wrist, but given a last chance instead of being indef blocked. You did not take that last chance, which required you to help clean up your existing copyright violations, choosing instead to continue to create new violating articles in your user space. There really is no excuse for any of these actions on your part. BMK (talk) 08:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

While I can appreciate the use of AFC to verify the contents of drafts, the topic ban is pretty clear that he is banned from article creation / creating new articles. This doesn't specify in what manor, so he's bypassing the direct approach by creating articles through AFC (or by having other editors moving his drafts), which is still in violation of the topic ban. (striken in relation to Choor monster's note relating to this. However, in addition to that, the topic ban included a ban on page moves, yet his page move log is pretty full. - Happysailor ^(Talk) 15:18, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Without actually seeing the article in question, it is rather hard to tell if there were copyvios there. I will note simply that there is no rule against quoting, even extended quoting of newspaper or book sources. Indeed, it is rather common in historical areas. The other example given from RA Norton's space (I assume that refers to footnote 2) has a quote consisting of one and a half sentences, which is rather hard to judge as copyvio and not fair use. Whether a quote of such a length is necessary or not, it is rather a stretch to call it a copyvio. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:57, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

That example is from 1912, so it is PD. Assuming a later date as in many RAN articles, note that there was no need to refer to the article by every last subheading—the first heading suffices—the quotation is longer than the article in question! Note too, it's not US Fair Use which is relevant, but WP:FAIRUSE. Note also RAN's defense of his quotations: he seems to very strongly believe in close paraphrasing and nothing but close paraphrasing, and the point of including the quotation is to seemingly discourage anyone from rewriting one of his close paraphrases. It certainly serves no other purpose here on WP. Choor monster (talk) 18:13, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

(ec) @Kingsindian: Please keep in mind that we don't actually follow the normal "fair-use doctrine", we have our own rules, WP:NFCC which are deliberately more restrictive than fair-use. One can make the argument that we should just follow fair-use doctrine, but the fact is that we don't. Because of that, any use of a quotation, of whatever length, needs to be necessary for the article, and should not simply repeat information that has been written into the article in a non-quoted, non-plagiarized manner, which is the preferred way to deal with sourced information. There have been any number of times when I determined that any re-writing of a source's statement was going to water down, misrepresent or too closely follow the quote from the source, and I chose to directly quote the source to get the correct flavor and attitude it conveyed, but the quote didn't repeat something I wrote, it replaced it as being the best representation of the cite. RAN's use of the "quote" parameter in his citations is, instead, repetitive and, generally, totally unnecessary.

Our policy says quite specifically "There is no automatic entitlement to use non-free content in an article or elsewhere on Wikipedia", but RAN operates on the opposite basis, that he can use quotes whenever he wants to, even when they are repetitive and unnecessary. Such usage would mostly survive scrutiny under the fair-use doctrine, but it is not in line with out NFCC policy. That RAN cannot or will not recognize this (or indeed the intent of his topics bans) is why we are here discussing this. BMK (talk) 18:19, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Whatever standard of "fair-use" one uses, one and a half sentences surely qualifies. I would barely be able to write any content if such a restrictive standard is used. For instance, I quoted two whole sentences here (at the very end). I hope I am not going to get banned. Kingsindian ♝♚ 18:56, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I assume an official government committee's statement is PD. Even if it were a private committee making an official statement about some investigation, its exact wording would typically meet NFCC. In contrast, the exact wording of a newspaper summarizing for us what some committee said, or even any PD document, would typically not meet NFCC. Why is this so difficult to understand? Choor monster (talk) 19:03, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: Please also keep in mind RAN's history. He's on an official short leash because of his past infractions, you're not. BMK (talk) 19:36, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Kingsindian, with respect only to the note "there is no rule against quoting, even extended quoting of newspaper or book sources", I just wanted to clarify that there are indeed such rules in both Wikipedia ("Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited." WP:NFC) and the US copyright law that governs us.  :) As our article on fair use notes, amount and substantiality of copied content is a determinative factor. (cf. http://copyright.gov/fair-use/more-info.html) Prudent use of quotations is not only permitted but good practice, but extensive quotations of any text that is copyrighted and not compatibly licensed is forbidden on Wikipedia. Unfortunately, "extensive" cannot be identified here any more than it is in law, since what qualifies as extensive is defined by a number of factors, including the centrality of the content and its original length, as well as a review of the other factors of fair use. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 20:03, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• When the source is not an official actor regarding some content being written up (if it were, the exact wording is inherently significant), I personally apply the "everybody quotes it" test. Strong editorials and reviews and so on are often the most interesting reactions to something, and tend to get quoted by later writers trying to capture the flavor of initial reactions. In contrast, routine journalism rarely gets quoted by later writers, and is normally never part of the story, then or later, so we should avoid quoting it too. Choor monster (talk) 20:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

@Moonriddengirl and Choor monster: The two sentences which I quote are not from a government statement, but from a book (actually the book is cited by a journal article, and I quote the journal article). I am of course aware that very long quotations are not a good idea, but as "extensive" is not defined exactly, I apply common sense here. One and half sentences (in the case of RAN) and two sentences (in my case), are surely within the bounds of "brief" and not "extended". Kingsindian ♝♚ 09:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

You appear to be quoting one Mohammed Hyder, just not directly from his own recently published memoir October Coup. So far as I can tell, Hyder was a government official, or a high-up NGO functionary, or the like. He wasn't working for the Indian government but for the Hyerabad state, and as someone on the losing side, he could not get official standing for his version. I see absolutely no comparison between your inclusion there and RAN's quotations elsewhere. You are doing things the right way, he is not. Choor monster (talk) 16:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

@Choor monster: Hyder's memoir, October Coup is as much subject to copyright as the New York Times is. As is the academic journal which quoted his book, which I quoted myself. If quoting one and a half sentences from the New York Times is copyvio, so is quoting two sentences from his book. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:58, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

You don't seem to get it. Hyder himself was a participant of some importance in the events described in the article. That elevates his words from random journalism to likely NFCC acceptable. Quoting the NYT verbatim regarding the US scandal Watergate or the UK scandal Hackergate would lean to being not allowed here. However, quoting Woodward and Bernstein, the two journalists most associated with Watergate, or any of the Murdoch News journalists, both guilty parties and shocked coworkers, would probably be fair game. Same thing here, not the same thing regarding RAN's use of NYT quotations. I'll mention that in the original Robert Martinson article that sparked this discussion, there was simply a stub of three sentences or so, five footnotes, and all five quoted a full sentence from the NYT, one a bit long. In the new version, not one single quotation appears. There may be some forthcoming, from Martinson or a colleague. But random journalism? No benefit whatsoever. Choor monster (talk) 12:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

• Kingsindian, my comment to you here has nothing to do with what source you're using or how many sentences you're quoting. :) It is purely confirmed to responding to your comment that "there is no rule against quoting, even extended quoting of newspaper or book sources" - I want to be sure that you and others realize that there is such a rule. Better to be clear on that than to inadvertently run afoul of it! --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Not to defend or deride RAN but either I'm misreading our Fair use policy or several people here are. Articles and other Wikipedia pages may, in accordance with the quotation style guideline, use brief verbatim textual excerpts from copyrighted media, properly attributed or cited to its original source or author (as described by the citation guideline), and specifically indicated as direct quotations via quotation marks, blockquote or a similar method. Other non-free content—including all copyrighted images, audio and video clips, and other media files that lack a free content license—may be used on the English Wikipedia only where all 10 of the following criteria are met. Brief Quotes don't need to meet the 10 criteria. They just need to be cited, they don't even need to be necessary or justified. By the letter of the rule. SPACKlick (talk) 14:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

While unfortunately the link to the MOS (added a few months ago) seems to have introduced some confusion, the guideline has explicit information on the use of text - including the necessity of them. The policy at Wikipedia:Copyrights says "Wikipedia articles may also include quotations, images, or other media under the U.S. Copyright law "fair use" doctrine in accordance with our guidelines for non-free content." That guideline, incorporated by reference in the copyright policy, has an entire section on text. By the letter of the rule, quotations must accord. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 01:19, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposal

Delete all articles in RAN's userspace and block indefinitely with the block only to be removed for the sole purpose of clearing up his existing copyvio issues and for no other reason.

Support as nom. Too much time and energy has been spent on RAN already. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:59, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a multi-million dollar installation. You can't make that kind of decision. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 10:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support After reading through all of the above and taking a peak at some of RAN's work I see an editor that is unwilling to work within community norms even after having them repeatedly and over time explained to him. That he is unwilling to take on board criticism of his methods and conform to community norms regarding copyright indicates to me he is not competent to judge copyright issues or add material to the project.

  Since the whole purpose of Wikipedia is to document knowledge without infringing on copyright we take an extremely cautious line on the use of non-free materials so as not to put the project's reputation at risk or open it to legal action. Based on RAN's unwillingness to address the community's concern with his work and his obstinate refusal to even recognize there is a problem I support not only the deletion of his articles, which were created at the very least in violation of the spirit of his ban if not in fact, I also support an indef ban block from Wikipedia until such time as he is willing to recognize and fix the community's concern with his work. Jbh^Talk 15:31, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Although I am the editor who brought up the "nuclear option" in the first place, I would actually much prefer that RAN acknowledge his errors and pledge himself to help undo them before we go there. As I said below, I think that his skills make him potentially a net positive, and I'd like to see him make some effort to make that happen, perhaps working with a mentor, before we go nuclear. So I look forward to seeing some indication from RAN as this discussion continues that he understands what went wrong and will help ameliorate the problem. So... I'm going to continue to monitor his comments, and will decide about this proposal based on that. BMK (talk) 19:29, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
• Comment Note that RAN's user subpages were permitted under the creation ban (see the Talk page) in order to demonstrate that he can create content without violating WP's terms. So talk that these articles' very existence violates the spirit of his ban is out of place, but I'll notice that so long as they stayed in his user space, nobody seems to have paid them any attention regarding copyright issues. Whether the request to move the one article to "fix" someone else's copy/paste to main space was a violation is another question. Choor monster (talk) 21:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• That's a long talk page! Is there a particular place where it's specifically stated that creation of articles in his userspace is permitted, or are you going on the fact that almost all the participants in the various discussions assumed that was the case? Because what's interesting is that the topic ban seen on ARBRAN doesn't go into details, it simply says that the community ban is endorsed and taken over by ArbCo,, and the wording of the community ban is as I posted it above, that RAN was prohibited from "creating articles" and "moving pages", without any specification of where that article creation was prohibited. It may be that having been accepted by so many people for so long, it's too late to retroactively enforce the actual wording of the topic ban, and not people's understanding of it, but unless you can point to something on the user page that I missed (which is quite possible, I couldn't read the entire thing), I don't think there's anything there that proactively says it's OK for him to do that, it's just assumed by all and sundry.
  In any event, RAN himself says in one of those discussions that the creation of those articles was designed to show that he could create non-copyvio articles, but here we are again with the same kind of NFCC-violating quotes he got in trouble with before.
  The other interesting thing about the talk page is that, fairly recently, ArbCom rejected RAN's bid to have his restrictions amended, based on an examination of his work to that point, a sign that -- at least in their opinion -- RAN is still not editing up to NFCC standards. BMK (talk) 21:40, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support sadly. Whether creating articles in user space is permitted or not seems at least plausibly a grey area; whether those articles are permitted to contain copyright violations is most definitely not. I've got a lot of sympathy for giving an editor another go and giving him a chance to demonstrate that he's understood the problems and is ready to remedy them; that chance has been offered, at great length, and the demonstration has categorically not been made. My only amendment would be that the standard offer should still be open; if he can convince someone that he's actually understood the problems and is ready to change, then he should be given another chance. Until that time, the editing privilege should be forfeit. "But there's nothing wrong with what I'm doing," in the face of overwhelming consensus that there is something wrong with it, is not a viable attitude for editing. GoldenRing (talk) 02:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support too many ban-evading and copyvio concerns Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:34, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

  I'm still waiting to hear from RAN, who was all over this discussion earlier, accusing critics of manufacturing outrage and making cracks about poop and proctology, but who seems to have disappeared now, when it comes time to provide some kind of pledge of cleaning up his act. BMK (talk) 03:29, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

  Why? He hasnt actually contributed to cleaning up his past problems in any significant manner. He has repeatedly over YEARS and multiple venues shown that he has no regard for others, wikipedia policy, community consensus or the restrictions placed on him by arbcom (who erred in not making him work solely on his own mess in the first place). I am not suggesting we nuke his userspace out of any punishment for him, I am suggesting we do it because no other editor should have to put up with his crap and vet it all to check its ok. Are you going to do it? Should we ask a specialist like Moon to have a look? Why would we wish that on someone else. There are likely loads of copyvios there *now* that will not have been looked at, because RAN thinks what he is doing is ok. Look at his responses to you above, he is a fanatic, he doesnt care about any other opinion or interpretation than his own. You want him to make some sort of commitment to being a better editor, but time and experience has shown whatever he says, whatever restrictions he is under, he will do what he wants regardless. Why are we wasting everyone's time? Given that he *will* continue the same pattern, any action we fail to take now is only making more problems in the future for other editors. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:11, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

  .....Nor should he. His problematic editing took place in the period 2005-2008, for the most part, when Wikipedia's standards for footnoting and snitching stuff from websites were looser. It's ridiculous to expect him to "clean up" ten year old editing, much of which has long since been changed and changed and changed again in the editing process. Yet that is the expectation of some people. It's absurd. Carrite (talk) 10:16, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support - BMK (talk) 20:23, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Articles such as Robert Martinson and eccentric dance are perfectly fine and deleting such notable topics would be disruptive – cutting off our nose to spite our face. Quotations are standard practice in our articles and it seems quite bizarre to suggest otherwise – the current FA contains numerous quotations, for example. Andrew D. (talk) 22:38, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• The only reason Eccentric dance is an adequate article is because of the work you put into it (and my copyedits didn't hurt either). The version from RAN's user space was terrible. Robert Martinson was recreated from scratch, you are not looking at RAN's version, which was deleted and can therefore be seen only by admins. You're perfectly within your rights to oppose the proposed sanction, but your rationale really isn't accurate. BMK (talk) 03:31, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef block, neutral on deletion I have not thoroughly examined the articles in his userspace, but they should be individually assessed. Hopefully some of them can be salvaged with revdel to excise the copyvios (and I use copyvio here in reference to the NFCC policy). As to the indef block, RAN has been warned over and over and he simply refuses to comply with the community standards. It is one thing to place a brief quote in the body of an article and properly reference it. It is another to fill the reference section with unnecessary copied material and call it 'fair use' in every instance. I believe RAN has exhausted the community's patience here. KrakatoaKatie 03:27, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support the whole kit and kaboodle, indef included: We've been around the block with RAN before. A lot. His block log reads like the rap sheet of a lifer, he's got a hundred hits on the ANI archives [17], and I bet there are longstanding productive editors with fewer edits than are totaled in those archives. He not only has proven he's more trouble than his contributions are worth, he proved it years ago. Ravenswing 15:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose: See my comments in the previous section. I can see some of the points being raised by people, but bringing out the pitchforks is a huge overreaction. I already dealt with one example in my comments above, another example (this one in RAN's userspace) has a long quote from a jazz historian/critic. I can't really see why Beyond My Ken considers that version a copyvio, but not the current version, since this also includes the same quote. It is a wholly proper and relevant quote, as far as I am concerned. It perhaps could be made shorter, but I don't see it as ban-worthy. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:32, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose is the only option here: Considering that RAN's user space exists with ArbCom's knowledge, I don't see how there is any scope for discussion here beyond the Robert Martinson article. His request to User:Sandstein was apparently improper, but Sandstein's deletion as an Enforcement Action (not logged, btw) presumably ended that particular issue. Since ArbCom decided to leave the fixing of his articles on a case-by-case basis, our options seem to be limited to that. Dig in or bring the issue back to ArbCom. Nuking and/or banning are almost certainly off the table at the moment. Choor monster (talk) 12:24, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• I disagree. RAN was strongly admonished in ARBRAN to stop what he was doing before he faced an indef block (the quote is up above); that block can certainly come from consensus. And RAN is still at it - yesterday he added the same reference with the same long 'quote' from a New York Times opinion piece to five different articles. It's as if he goes through the NYT every morning looking for opportunities to add its material anywhere he can. This is beyond an article creation problem. If consensus fails here, we can certainly go back to ArbCom, but they like to see us try to fix it ourselves first. I think that applies here. KrakatoaKatie 13:15, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• And it's all happening in his User space, and has been ongoing with almost no concern anyway. And suddently now there's a fire? I don't buy it. I see instead that this current thread came from a comedy of good-faith errors, including one actionable request on RAN's part that received AE, while the bigger long-range problem is exactly what it was a week ago. In other words, I don't believe it's proper to make up for the community's negligent avoidance of short-term efforts with one easy cumulative better-late-than-never response. That's just dirty pool. Choor monster (talk) 14:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• No - it's not all happening in his user space. These edits were made to existing articles in the space of seven minutes:
  • first addition of reference to Hit to lead
  • second addition to Lead compound
  • third addition to Pre-clinical development
  • fourth addition to Approved drug
  • fifth addition to Clinical trial

This is the issue about which RAN was strongly admonished. It's not dirty pool. We've been around and around with him over this for years and he will. not. stop. KrakatoaKatie 20:10, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• It's also being overlooked that RAN's ban includes not making page moves. Check WP:ARBRAN or WP:Editing restrictions, and you'll see that ArbCom did not fashion a new topic ban, they simply endorsed the community's topic ban and took it over as their own. The community's ban, which can be found here says that the topic ban is "from creating new articles and from performing page moves" (underlining added). This is quite clear, and since ArbCom simply accepted, endorsed and adopted it, RAN's ban definitely includes page moves, and yet RAN's page move log is, as pointed out above, crammed with page moves. We can argue over whether the article creation ban was meant for everywhere, or just in articlespace, but the page move ban is clear, which means that each and every one of the page moves in his log is a violation of his topic ban. BMK (talk) 22:45, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I stand corrected, and have struck my oppose. But I still don't like it all blowing up at once. The alternate proposal below is a step in the right direction. Choor monster (talk) 11:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose blocking Richard Norton. Oppose messing with Richard Norton's user page or any subpage of Richard Norton's User page. Look, he is not circumventing ANYTHING by listing new starts on his page. That is how he is SUPPOSED to be starting new articles on WP: launching them there, to be taken into mainspace by others UNDER THEIR OWN AUTHORITY AND PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR COPYRIGHT CLEANLINESS. It's an idiotic system, he should be free to create new articles like anyone else, but we've been around the mulberry bush three times and it is what it is. I've told him five times, minimum, to STOP USING THE FUCKING QUOTE FUNCTION OF THE CITATION TEMPLATE and he fucking won't listen and if that's what's getting him in trouble here, I have very little sympathy. But, for the record (and you can check on this if you doubt me) it is NOT a violation of any topic ban, in spirit or de jure, for him to be launching new articles in user space for others to take to mainspace. Anyone who has voted for action against him on that basis needs to educate themselves on the matter. Carrite (talk) 10:08, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
  • While his user pages are sitting there *not being checked* they probably (a good bet given his history) still include violations, while you are correct it is the responsibility of anyone who then puts it into mainspace, a user-draft is still a copyvio even if its not in mainspace. The problem is no one is going to go through them all (unless you are volunteering?) so they could have been sitting there for months and months with no oversight apart from RAN's. Which he is not competant to judge. If someone is willing to stand up and say 'I will check all of his user drafts for violations' then fine, I am happy to remove that part of the proposal above. But you freely admit he wont listen to instruction on the quote function despite repeatedly being told he is wrong by numerous people over an extended period, by the community, by Arbcom, by yourself. Everyone has tried escalating deterrants, there is no where left to go apart from an addition to his (already lengthy) sanctions stating he may not make any edits other than basic prose. No quotes, citation templates, nothing. If you think that will work feel free to post it as a counter? (-edit- I see you did) However at this point perhaps his entire userspace needs to go to MFD Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

  I don't think the "solution" of having other people mule his starts to mainspace under their own authority works. That's a matter for Arbitration Enforcement or ArbCom, ultimately. I ported one or two over long ago but have pretty much decided not to do any more owing to RAN's use of the "quote =" parameter, which I object to on the basis of aesthetics and general uselessness. All that shit should be stripped out of the footnotes by RAN himself and he should be allowed to make new starts, bearing in mind that any copyright violations are gonna result in a very lengthy block. That's how to fix the problem (while improving the encyclopedia), for the record. The current system is not working, on that we can agree. Carrite (talk) 10:50, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

  Given that my original proposal was 'blocked until and only he clears up his own mess' I dont see that you actually disagree with my proposal :D Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Another proposal

Richard A. Norton is hereby expressly prohibited from using the "quote =" parameter of the citation template in any edit that he makes after Sept. 15, 2015. While it generally falls within the definition of Fair Use under American copyright law to use this parameter, we have a right to demand the very highest standard of copyright cleanliness in his work. There is too much controversy with some, too much grey area, for him to continue to use this parameter. He has been asked nicely to stop, told emphatically to stop, he needs now to be formally stopped from using the quote parameter. Carrite (talk) 10:26, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. Carrite (talk) 10:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support I've been half following this for a few days (since it was pretty much the first Arbcom case I dealt with as an Arb). I don't want to see Richard removed, but I couldn't think of a decent solution. That there's such a simple solution available that I missed makes me feel quite foolish. I'm glad Carrite mentioned it! Worm^TT(talk) 10:35, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

  To be clear, I'd also be willing to go further and stop Richard from using quotes of any form anywhere in any article, but I do think the above solution is sufficient. Worm^TT(talk) 10:36, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support However I still favour the above. This just puts us into a situation where someone will have to monitor him regularly. He was banned from page moves above and that didnt stop him. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:42, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support Note that there is still the problem that Richard likes very close paraphrases. Choor monster (talk) 11:08, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support I too would be willing to ban him from using any quote of any kind in any article, but this will do for now. KrakatoaKatie 13:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support 2nd choice I too would support a ban from using any quote. I think such a narrow restriction as not using "quote=" is open to finding ways around and we will be right back here with no other option but a site ban. RAN has shown an obstinate case of IDHT when told his quoting strategy is not acceptable and has shown that he is lax at best about following community sanctions cf. the page move part of his ban mentioned above. Jbh^Talk 13:18, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support - Even though this does not entirely address the behavioral problems. BMK (talk) 17:52, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support we'll have less to worry about this way, blocked or not Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support as per explanations above. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support. NE Ent 00:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I don't recall the ArbCom case, in which I was involved, discussing RAN creating articles in draftspace, so we didn't explicitly ban it. There was a later clarification on the matter, in which the outcome was that use of draftspace wasn't banned, but that anyone who moved one of RAN's article's into mainspace would assume full responsibility for it. I would be uncomfortable if RAN were asking people to move his articles into mainspace without making them aware of the consequences, so in addition to the prohibition from using the "quote =" parameter, I feel we should add a requirement that all RAN's draftspace articles carry a clear notice at the top that he is under a topic ban for copyright violations, and that anyone who moves the article into mainspace needs to check the article thoroughly first, and takes full responsibility for any copyright violations they introduce into mainspace, which may result in sanctions. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:20, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• That is an excellent idea. BMK (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Gamaliel (talk) 16:59, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. Jimbo recently stated that "extended quotes, properly sourced, are not generally a violation of copyright. ... We have never, to my recollection and knowledge, had a legal complaint or threat of any kind about a properly sourced quote." RAN's use of quotes is therefore not a significant problem requiring such sanctions. Andrew D. (talk) 17:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
  • No one has claimed otherwise. The criticism is that he violates WP:NFCC. We commonly call this "copyvio", short for "violation of WP policy regarding copyrighted materials", and not short for "violation of US law concerning copyright". Choor monster (talk) 12:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Supplementary proposal to add a move notice to RAN's draft articles

So users are aware of the situation, the following notice should be added to all RAN's draftspace articles:

RAN is to ensure that any article he creates or has created in draftspace should have the notice attached at the top. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support Excellent suggestion. KrakatoaKatie 18:29, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support Great idea. BMK (talk) 21:11, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
• Comment - SilkTork - Change "due to excessive copyright violations" to "due to problems in the past with copyright violations" and I think such a thing is reasonable. His copyright violations in the past were almost completely limited to a concrete block of time (2005 to 2008 for the most part, with a few somewhat problematic instances up to 2010). The "excessive" part relates to the fact that he is an extremely prolific content writer — and problems with 3% of a huge number (making a percentage up from thin air) amounts to a very large number. Carrite (talk) 16:52, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I have boldly made the change I suggest above. Pinging KrakatoaKatie and Beyond My Ken, in case they have any objections, Silk Tork having already been pinged. Carrite (talk) 15:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

  Fine by me, I still support. BMK (talk) 17:15, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

  Okay with me. KrakatoaKatie 18:05, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support modified version of the flag, which gets potential movers up to speed in a neutrally-phrased manner. Carrite (talk) 15:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Other problems

The articles Stuyvesant Polyclinic and Eccentric dance began in RAN's User space. Choor monster (talk) 13:22, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

That's fine. The people who imported them to mainspace are PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE that they be copyright clear. Carrite (talk) 10:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

But see the above section, which would help insure that people know what it is a they're importing. BMK (talk) 21:12, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Comments

I wish I had seen this thread earlier although I see it is not all that old. I see some black-and-white statements to describe a situation which in some cases is not that clear-cut. I am very sympathetic to BMKs frustration, but I wish they had not made the strong statement that RAN has never helped clean up some of the copyright issues. I may be one of the few editors who can say I have worked with RAN to resolve some articles. That said, my involvement ended because we could not reach a resolution of the use of the quote feature in references. It is not quite fair to suggest that RAN is deliberately disregarding copyright rules. I think he accepts that we cannot violate copyright but he believes his use of the quote feature is in compliance with the rules. I fully get that we have tried multiple times to explain that we do not agree with his position, but there is a distinction between a difference of opinion about the application of a role, and a blatant disregard for rules.

I tried, very hard, to resolve the quote in reference issue. I don't have the links handy but I can find them if someone thinks they are relevant.

I think it would be an unrealistic expectation that he do know content related work until all copyvio issues are resolved. However it might be reasonable to propose some compromise, for example, some percentage of edits over some period of time have to be devoted to resolving open copyright issues.

I will volunteer to spend some time working with RAN to resolve some of the open issues. We will have to identify items other than the quote within reference articles, but I'm sure there are many such examples. I think we will still have to resolve the quote within reference issue.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

My prior attempts to solve the quote in reference issue are here:

Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 32#Use of quote parameter in footnote - a proposal to provide better guidance--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:20, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

If I am incorrect that RAN has never helped to clean up his copyright violations, then I withdraw the statement and apologize for it, but it cannot be denied that his involvement has been minimal at best, and that he now consistently rejects suggestions that he continue that work with the "10 years" canard. As for "content work", the AN/I discussions specifically shied away from saying the RAN couldn't do content work, so he is free to add content to existing articles, even to expand sub-stubs to full-blown articles, what he is not allowed to do is to create articles which has been his primary focus for quite a while, albeit in his userspace and not in mainspace. BMK (talk) 17:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I have the impression that RAN simply does not understand this Internet thingie. Many of the examples I've seen probably pass US Fair Use, and he believes that ends the discussion, when of course, the only rules that matter are WMF policies/guidelines, which are much more stringent. That, and his employment of an endless succession of time-wasting Wookie defenses (look, over there, somewhere there's a issue in which WMF took an expansive view of public domain!) is simply a complete failure of competence. Choor monster (talk) 18:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I think the RAN is an excellent researcher, that he comes up with information that many other editors would never find. His skills as a writer aren't quite as good, but still much more than acceptable, and his ability to nose out subjects that haven't been covered by the encyclopedia is very good indeed. Where he fails is, I think, in judgment, as exemplified by his sticking like glue to his misinterpretation or misunderstanding of Wikipedia policies, and by the choice of which of those subjects he finds to write about. With some frequency the notability of the subject is fairly borderline, but, just as with the use of the quote parameter, once RAN has decided to do something, he digs in and resists all attempts to change his course. That is unfortunate, as such a modus vivendi for a person in his delicate position (3 topic bans and a strong admonishment from ArbCom) needs to be more flexible and to understand the rules he is supposed to live by, because failure to do so would seem to inevitably lead to an indef block or even a site ban. That would, I think, be a shame, because he has the potential to be a net positive if he would only be more reasonable, give up the idea that his judgment on these matters is infallible, and listen to what other editors are telling him. Despite his statement above, I don't want to see him kicked off the site, I just want him to be able to improve the encyclopedia and at the same time follow policy and his restrictions. BMK (talk) 18:33, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid I disagree. He doesn't have the potential at all to be a net positive; what he has are the skills to be a net positive. We've had years' worth of observation, many blocks, a blizzard of ANI complaints and multiple bans to demonstrate that he just doesn't have the temperament for it. He isn't going to be more reasonable, isn't going to listen to other editors when their words conflict with his worldview, and isn't going to accept that someone else might be right if it means that he's wrong. People like that just don't slap their foreheads one day and cry out "My God! I've been so horribly blind! I shall change my ways and become a civil, non-tendentious editor," and we should abandon the fantasy that this ever happens. Ravenswing 02:08, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

People need to assume good faith with Richard. He is not an unreasonable man — just a bit crabby, as very many of us hardcore content people are. He's cognizant of what he did wrong in the past and is wiling to meet the community's reasonable expectations. I will also point out that in his latest creation — Michael X. Mockus (which I have been also editing on and will be moving the mainspace shortly on my authority and at my risk), he has dropped use of the "quote=" parameter on his own based on the debate above. Don't characterize him as fanatical and unable to cooperate or work collectively — he's not. Carrite (talk) 16:59, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. He joined in on the new Robert Martinson article, and besides making improvements, responded to one revert over non-RS by finding RS, and over a minor detail where I called something he put in a "pointless wikilink" in my edit summary by asking on the Talk page for a fuller explanation, and so on. In short, it's been normal editing the way we're all supposed to proceed. Choor monster (talk) 12:36, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Robert Martinson article recreated

I have recreated the article that sparked this thread from scratch. I had planned to give it some more content first, but hit the wrong button. Choor monster (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Request for clarification filed

I have filed a request for clarification from ArbCom as to the meaning and scope of RAN's topic ban. This discussion should not be closed down because of it, but the discussion will, I hope, be better informed by the clarification. The request can be found here. BMK (talk) 21:39, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

A related technical question

How exactly does one move an article from user space to mainspace while preserving the edit history? Doing a big copy-paste into a new article form is essentially plagiarism... Carrite (talk) 02:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

by using the move button? - Happysailor ^(Talk) 16:28, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Yup. BMK (talk) 03:02, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

User:ThorLives and the Heathenry (new religious movement) page

In the almost ten years that I've been active here at Wikipedia I've never suggested that any editor be banned or blocked, but unfortunately I've come to the conclusion that it may be necessary in the case of User:ThorLives in order to prevent continuing disruption to the Heathenry (new religious movement) page. A self-described "Odinist" – and thus a practitioner of the religion that this article is about, a possible Conflict of Interest of sorts – it is clear from ThorLives' contribution list that this is one of very few articles that they actually edit, and that they have been active on it since opening their account in October 2011 (and thus they've had four years with which to familiarise themselves with policy). Thus, I do believe that their intentions are good, even if their behaviour of late has repeatedly and seriously violated a number of Wikipedia policies, including those on disruptive editing, edit warring, no personal attacks, and "outing", with no sign that they intend to stop.

The article in question was formerly titled "Germanic neopaganism", but in August 2015 a Requested Move resulted in the group decision that the page would be renamed "Heathenry (new religious movement)". Several hours after User:Sovereign Sentinel had orchestrated the move on 2 September 2015, ThorLives (clearly unhappy with this decision) created a fork redirect back to "Germanic neopaganism". Within the hour I had realised what they had done and undid their edit, thus restoring the page to "Heathenry (new religious movement)", pointing them to the recent Requested Move discussion in my edit summary. Unfortunately, they ignored that and simply restored their fork redirect. Only after being warned about their actions by both User:Brianann MacAmhlaidh and User:Sovereign Sentinel on the article Talk Page did they then undo their edit. This reflects not only an initial refusal to accept group decisions and a willingness to unilaterally act against them, but also shows that they are prepared to wilfully engage in edit warring.

The very next day, on 3 September 2015, they then proceeded to engage in a range of edits that removed much academically-referenced material and introduced content that was in part poorly sourced – consisting of self-published and other non-reliable sources – and in part not sourced at all. This was always going to be controversial. On 4 September I undid these edits, seeking to bring about the Bold, Revert, Discuss Cycle. However, ThorLives then engaged in edit warring by restoring their edits. Also acknowledging the problematic nature of ThorLives’ content, User:Bloodofox then restored things to how they were, but ThorLives simply undid that too. On 6 September I once again restored the article to the established revision, but fearing that the edit warring would continue and that I myself might be accused of violating the three-revert rule, I successfully requested a three day full protection for the article, which was kindly administered by User:NeilN.

During this edit war, on the talk page I repeatedly requested that ThorLives engage in dialogue so that their proposed changes, which were both sweeping and controversial, could be discussed with other editors first. They ignored my requests, and in their response instead broke Civility policy by attempting to expose my identity, which is an attempt at "outing" and thus in very clear violation of our Harassment policy, which states very plainly that "attempted outing is grounds for an immediate block". Since then, they have posted some rather odd comments on my talk page trying to "out" me further by linking me to a different user (and wrongly, as it happens) and making pretty uncomfortable accusations regarding my gender, and then most recently they've done it again on the talk page, this time making a personal attack by libelously accusing me of sock puppetry.

All in all, ThorLives has exhibited a pattern of disruptive editing, edit warring, and outing with no sign that they admit their errors and intend to cease. Attempts have been made to engage in constructive dialogue with them on the article talk page, all of which have proved fruitless. This has all been highly detrimental to the quality and stability of the article in question, and frankly has been unpleasant for me, and it has led me to the unfortunate conclusion (which I most certainly do not take lightly) that a block and/or ban (temporary or otherwise) on this user's ability to edit is necessary. Midnightblueowl (talk) 00:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I am completely uninvolved with this other than carrying out the requested move, and therefore I am abstaining from this discussion. sovereign°sentinel (contribs) 05:05, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Update (14 Sep): As soon as the three-day full protection on the article ended on 9 September, ThorLives proceeded to make a number of additions to the article, including of non-reliably referenced material, which had to be removed by others. On 14 September, ThorLives again engaged in edit warring to restore information on pre-Christian religious movements, despite a Talk Page agreement from myself, User:Bloodofox, and User:Ogress that this information should not be included within the article. On the Talk Page they have also begun making accusations of "bullying" against myself, and accusing me of being unfamiliar with the subject matter (in clear violation of our Wikipedia:No personal attacks policy). This is getting to be a real disruption for the article and the editors working to improve it, so it would be appreciated if administrators could take action. Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:34, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Second update (16 Sep): Surprise surprise, but ThorLives is edit warring on this page again. As I specified above, on 14 September they restored a contentious reference that was being discussed on the Talk Page. Given that most editors involved in that discussion thought that this was damaging to the article (for various reasons), later that day their edit was undone by User:Ogress. On 15 September ThorLives simply restored it, ignoring Talk Page warnings that they should not do so. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Third update (18 Sep): Unsurprisingly, ThorLives has continued their edit warring over at the Heathenry page. Earlier today they added a Tag stating that the article's factual accuracy is disputed, and opened up a Talk Page discussion in which they repeated this accusation, without sufficient supporting information. User:Snowded, who has been otherwise un-involved in the article and its content disputes, removed that tag, explaining why it had to be removed. ThorLives simply then added it back in, (erroneously) accusing Snowded's removal of having been Vandalism. Yet again, the edit warring and incivility continues. Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

ThorLives' response

From ThorLives — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThorLives (talk • contribs) 04:52, 8 September 2015 (UTC) Sorry, I suspected a "sock puppet." Midnightblueowl and Bhlegkorbh made the same edits and same arguments and disrupted the page in the same ways. If you check my edits, I was not deleting material: I was restoring material he deleted.

Both editors insisted that "heathenry" is the ONLY term for Germanic neopaganism. Folkish types do not like "pagan" because it has Latin and French roots.

Both editors deleted academic references dealing with medieval Norse Paganism. For example, who could object to the following, but both constant;y deleted it:

Our most complete sources for reconstruction are from Iceland. On the alleged existence of a collective Germanic paganism in medieval times, Professor Lois Bragg makes this observation: “But we have no persuasive evidence of any common cult, belief system, or even pantheon that might ever have been recognized among speakers of various Germanic languages across geographical, cultural, political, and dialect boundaries. While there are obvious commonalities, for example in the names of some deities (Odin, Woden, Wotan), these point to common origins rather than common praxis or belief. Compare present-dy Jews, Lutherans, and Mormons who share common myths (the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, the Moses cycle, the Patriarch cycle ) and who similarly name their children after the heroes of these myths (Adam, Aaron, Judith, Rebecca), but maintain distinctive cult practices and identities and even disparage and attempt to convert one another.” Lois Bragg. Oedipus Borealis: The Aberrant Body in Old Icelandic Myth and Saga Fairleigh Dickinson University Press. 2004. ISBN 0838640281

Both editors deleted saga, Prose Edda, and Poetic Edda references.n

Both editors deleted links and references to mainline pagan groups. This is the lede before the two removed it:

Heathenry or Germanic neopaganism,[1] also known as Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr, Wotanism, Theodism, and other names, is the contemporary revival of historical polytheistic Germanic paganism.[2] Dedicated to the ancient gods and goddesses of the North, the focus of Germanic neopagans varies considerably, from strictly historical polytheistic reconstructionism to syncretist (eclectic), Jungian, occult or mysticist approaches. Germanic neopagan organizations cover a wide spectrum of belief and ideals.

Much of Germanic Neopaganism's origins are in 19th century romanticism, as the aboriginal cultures of Northern Europe came to be glorified. In the early 20th century, organised groups emerged in Germany and Austria. In the 1970s, new Germanic Neopagan organisations grew up in Europe and North America, although a broad division in the movement emerged between the folkish movement, who saw it as the indigenous religion of the Nordic peoples, and the universalist movement, who opposed strictly racialist interpretations. As present, established Germanic Pagan communities exist in Europe, North America, South America, and Australasia. A few adherents can even be found in South Africa.

References to the Odinist Fellowship, Odinic Rite, Ásatrú Alliance, Asatru Folk Assembly, and so forth were constantly deleted by both editors.

Both editors constantly deleted references to Valhalla, a curious "conceit" on a page about Germanic paganism. (It makes sense, however, in a certain context. One small American group, who always uses the name Heathen exclusively, denies that Valhalla exists, and they argue that the dead continue to live in the grave mound)

Both editors deleted all references to modern Norse pagan leaders and their books, people such as Stephen McNallen, John Yeowell, and so forth.

I could continue, but you understand the point.

I should add that, in my opinion, an article on Germanic Neopaganism should be comprehensive, and should not promote a single agenda. It also should contain numerous links and discussions to help readers find related articles. --ThorLives (talk) 05:04, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. --Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThorLives (talk • contribs) 04:51, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

This isn't the place to discuss content dispute, which seems to represent almost the entire gist of ThorLives' response here; they have neither acknowledged nor apologised for their repeated gross violations of various Wikipedia policies. All I can say in response to their above post is that I (and others) had good reason to delete the non-reliably referenced, in some some cases not referenced at all, often sectarian, sometimes irrelevant, and at times factually incorrect statements that ThorLives had insisted on repeatedly adding to the article (at the expense of concise, academically-sourced information on this new religious movement which they repeatedly deleted). Wikipedia has clear guidelines surrounding Reliable Sources which ThorLives disregarded time and time again.

As to the claim that I am sock puppeting and that myself and Bhlegkorbh are one and the same individual, I completely and utterly deny the libelous accusations 100%. I am not, and never have, edited Wikipedia using the "Bhlegkorbh" account (Bhlegkorbh appears to have thrown in the towel and left Wikipedia in July 2014 anyway). ThorLives' claim rests in its entirety on the basis that, at different times, myself and "Bhlegkorbh" have expressed similar arguments and opinions about how the article can be improved (primarily by adding in material from academic studies of Heathenry and deleting un-referenced and poorly-referenced text). However, similar opinions (which would, IMO, be held by anyone familiar with Wikipedia's Manual of Style), have also at times been backed by the likes of User:Bloodofox - so by ThorLives' reasoning I guess that that must be simply be another of my accounts too! Frankly, I suspect that the accusations of sock puppetry launched against me by ThorLives are in part an attempt simply to distract attention from their own behaviour. Midnightblueowl (talk) 09:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

ThorLives, why would anyone want a long quote about medieval or ancient beliefs (or in this instance lack of consistent beliefs) in the lead of an article about a modern revival? That kind of material MIGHT belong in later sections comparing modern/ancient or on the articles about the 'old'. I fear you are arguing from a different 'base' from WP guidelines. Pincrete (talk) 09:49, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Comments

This looks like a content war with some edit warring and mild incivility. Outing maybe, possibly but its not clear. I don't see any 3rr warnings on ThorLives talk page and you should exhaust process there before coming to ANI for a ban ----Snowded ^TALK 13:46, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Ordinarily I would have waited until the edit warring got worse before bringing up the possibility of blocking/banning or anything like that, however when ThorLives started engaging in outing, which according to Wikipedia:Harassment is "grounds for an immediate block", I came to the opinion that the situation had become more serious and accordingly required a more serious response. (Also, in the spirit of disclosure for all readers, it probably is fair to say that myself and Snowded have had recent disagreements over content at Talk:UK Independence Party, which at points has become a little heated. That certainly doesn't invalidate their comment, but perhaps it is a factor that should be made clear - to use a colloquialism, we have history, as it were). Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

It just means I notice if your name comes up an ANI Midnight, its the way wikipedia works. Given that you seem well intentioned on the UK Independence issues I looked at this one to see if you needed any help, hence the comment ----Snowded ^TALK 00:56, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Reading the talk, I get the impression that 'Thor' doesn't fully understand how WP works, in the event of nothing happening here, might I suggest this is a candidate for dispute resolution. Pincrete (talk) 09:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Forms of dispute resolution, such as RFCs, have already been employed. ThorLives simply continued with many of their actions regardless, hence why there was the need to turn to the Administrators' Noticeboard. I agree with the statement that ThorLives doesn't appear to understand how Wikipedia works, however they have been repeatedly pointed to policies such as Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources over at the Talk Page, so I do not believe that they can legitimately defend themselves through claiming an ignorance of policy. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 12:27, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

It's been over a week since I posted this issue and the problem is simply continuing. Can an administrator please consider doing something so that the article can advance without disruption? Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Could we perhaps get administrative support for a Topic Ban, which would be less extreme than a wider ban yet would put a stop to the constant disruptive behaviour which is damaging the article? Midnightblueowl (talk) 18:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

At the moment its a low level content dispute with some incivility from Thor who evidently does not understand how wikipedia works. I'm not sure he can be bothered finding out either but lets see how it plays out. This has come to ANI prematurely and should be closed. Normal process can handle it ----Snowded ^TALK 00:13, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Slanderous accusations by user Lute88

On 29 August 2015, I read the sentence "Politkovskaya was found dead in the lift, in her block of flats in central Moscow on 7 October 2006, the birthday of Vladimir Putin” in the ‘Murder, investigation and trial’ section of the article Anna Politkovskaya. I felt that the implied connection between the murder of Politkovskaya and Putin’s birthday was an innuendo bordering on libel and thus had no place in an encyclopedia. Therefore, I deleted it. It was immediately reinstated by user Lute88. I deleted it again with an explanation, but it was again reinstated by Lute88 without explanation. After this went on for some time, I brought the matter to the talk page of the article in the section ‘Putin's Birthday & the lead’. There, I found the support of an admin,Drmies. There ensued a heated discussion with another editor,My very best wishes, later joined by Lute88. Drmies explained why the mention of Putin’s birthday was inappropriate and said she was going to delete it. She did so and was immediately reverted by Lute88. After that, Lute88 made a post where he asked why he "was smelling something" and provided a link to a CNN article about Russian trolls paid by Putin. Drmies remarked that this was not funny and I asked her to convince him to stop because I would hate to take the matter further. He replied with this new post: "No fun intended. Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant…"

I asked him to take his words back, but he made no response. That decided me to bring the matter here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Againstdisinformation (talk • contribs) 22:50, 7 September 2015‎ (UTC)

Although I agree that, absent some strong evidence of a connection, the death should not be linked to Putin's birthday, this is essentially a content dispute and should be dealt with on the article's talk page. BMK (talk) 03:10, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

BMK I may be wrong but I believe that Againstdisinformation is here to for Lute88 to "take back" the comment 'No fun intended. Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant' - it seems the content dispute has been sorted. Flat Out (talk) 03:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I see that, but Antidisinformation threw around words like "libel" and "slander" in the discussion from the very beginning, which is now getting pretty darn close to violating WP:NLT, so he's not really in a position to demand anything from anybody. BMK (talk) 03:24, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Againstdisinformation there is no possibility of slander when no-one knows who you are. Both you and Lute88 have been edit warring and this is no way to solve a simple content dispute. The best way to resolve these kinds of disputes is to walk away and work on another article. As BMK notes above, you should read WP:NLT and I would add WP:3RR Flat Out (talk) 03:27, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Certanly no edit-warring on my part. Antidisinformation however is an SPA that has been edit-warring with a lot of people on Russia-related articles, with total disregard for consensus, RS, 3RR, with legal threats, and now - this. Simply preposterous.--Lute88 (talk) 22:50, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

This is the article that piqued my vigilance - http://news.yahoo.com/wikipedia-blocks-accounts-linked-paid-edits-200646137.html;_ylt=AwrC0wwVZ.9VMkQAeCPQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg-- .Lute88 (talk) 22:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with "vigilance". You just threw that at me as an insult out of frustration when you realised that sensible editors were on my side and you were prevented by an admin to reinstate your preposterous innuendo connecting Putin's birthday and Politkovskaya's murder. Your Russophobic passion has blinded you to the point of believing that anyone who doesn't share it is necessarily paid by the Kremlin. I sincerely hope you come back to your senses. Againstdisinformation (talk) 00:03, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

• And this is precisely what I warned you about in my previous comment here: groundless personal accusations. What "Russophobic passion"? Why? Any reasons for blaming Lute88 of this? It is an ethnically-motivated slander by you, much worse than expressing suggestion that someone might be a COI contributor. And you came here to complain about slander... My very best wishes (talk) 02:17, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

BMK, Flat Out is right, the dispute has already been sorted by the felicitous intervention of Drmies. However, I cannot agree that User:Lute88 can throw any kind of insults at me, just because he does not know my identity. I cannot agree either that I violated WP:NLT because I called a spade a spade. Yes, his accusation is slanderous and I am certain of what your reaction would be if it were thrown at you. Now, you say that I "threw around words like "libel" and "slander" in the discussion from the very beginning". I am afraid that your reading has been cursory. I didn't say at the very beginning that I had been libelled, I just tried to make my opponent aware that, the innuendo he made about Putin would without any doubt be considered libel in a court of law, unless he had incontrovertible evidence. Therefore, I think this has no place in an encyclopedia, which must remain neutral. He can always write this in The Daily Mirror, if he so wishes. Besides, I am not asking for a sanction, I would just like him to take back his words, which, I am sorry to say, I take as an insult. In any case, it's a great comfort for me to see that you agree with me on substance. Againstdisinformation (talk) 04:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Againstdisinformation are you saying you have been libeled? Flat Out (talk) 04:39, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Flat Out Yes, I consider that accusing me in no uncertain terms of being paid by the Kremlin for editing WP is slanderous. Againstdisinformation (talk) 13:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Againstdisinformation - they aren't withdrawing the comment, which is why you came here, so might be best to move on. Flat Out (talk) 00:39, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The more that is said here, the more confused I become. It's becoming impossible to tell who is supposedly being libeled, slandered or whatever. Since the dispute apparently has been sorted it would be best to drop the matter. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I'm fairly confused as well. Saying that person A murdered person X on person 3's birthday is clearly not libel for the person 3 unless it's also implied that person 3 supported or sanctioned the murder. While I can't recall any examples offhand, there have definitely been cases when nutty person A have done something (whether murder or whatever) out of their "love" for person 3, where person 3 is horrified by the actions. It may be libel for person A who did the murder to give them incorrect motiviations, but while we should get these things right, I'm not sure libel is ever our biggest concern for murderers even if it's theoretically there. (Of course calling them murderers when they are not would raise more serious libel concerns.) Nil Einne (talk) 05:53, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Short Brigade Harvester Boris, Nil Einne, I undersand why there may be confusion, there are two cases. The object of the dispute between User:Lute88 and me is the sentence: "Politkovskaya was found dead in the lift, in her block of flats in central Moscow on 7 October 2006, the birthday of Vladimir Putin”. I mentioned to User:Lute88 that, in a court of law, this would without any doubt be considered libel, and I added that, moreover, it was preposterous. This was my argument why it should be removed from the article. A number of editors have agreed with me and this matter is now settled. Note that, at that point, i did not accuse him of slandering me, of course, I am not Mr. Putin. However, he was unhappy with the decision taken by admin Drmies and lashed out at me on the talk page of the article, a first time asking why he "was smelling something" and providing a link to a CNN article about Russian trolls paid by Putin. That was already very offensive but, after he was admonished by User:Drmies, who told him it was not funny, he added "No fun intended. Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant…". This is this direct accusation that I am paid by the Kremlin for editing WP which, in my strongly felt opinion, is slanderous. I asked him to take his words back, but he wouldn't. This is why I took the matter here. As I have already said, I am not seeking a sanction against him, I just would very much like that he be told to take back his words. If he did, that would be the end of the matter for me. Againstdisinformation (talk) 12:37, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• What say we save ourselves a lot of time and angst and ban Againstdisinformation as being a painfully obvious Warrior For Truth? Guy (Help!) 13:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Good idea. However, it would also be important to zap the part about Putin's birthday from the article in question, unless there's a reliable source demonstrating that it's a notable fact. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:23, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

There's actually more than a dozen of such sources. It is a notable fact given the circumstances and that's how sources treat it. Volunteer Marek  20:39, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Guy If you want to ban me for "being a painfully obvious Warrior For Truth" as you elegantly put it, you should leave the innuendo about Putin and give a medal to Lute88 for slandering me, at least that would be consistent. 13:37, 8 September 2015 (UTC)Againstdisinformation (talk)

• Ah yes. I did in fact support the removal of that one clause, and I gave my reasons on the talk page, though it may be difficult to find between all the mud-slinging. I don't see libel or slander, just a couple of editors with their own POV bitching at each other. This is NPA territory, as far as I'm concerned, and I urged the two editors to tone it down, clearly to no avail. Drmies (talk) 14:07, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
• User Againstdisinformation is clearly engaged in WP:BATTLE and WP:SOAP by starting irrelevant and contentions discussions like here, demanding an apology like here and by edit-warring on multiple pages. I think this is a textbook example of WP:NOTHERE, a "disruption only" account. My very best wishes (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree, but! if it weren't for them that silly "coincidence" would still be in the article. Gadflies are irritating but sometimes necessary--if only this one wasn't so loquacious. (First time I wrote that word! Woohoo!) Drmies (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

As should be clear from sources already provided on the talk page by VM and others, this is not a silly coincidence, but something considered significant in multiple RS. Yes, this must be better described and better sourced - I agree. But here is the question: even if you consider his removal on this page a positive contribution, did it worth wasting other people time by starting this ANI thread, other soap-like discussions (link above) and edit wars on a number of pages? However, this is probably a question only WP:AE can answer. If he/she will not be blocked now, I would expect a prolonged drama and waste of time on numerous page. This is already a pattern. My very best wishes (talk) 15:19, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

My very best wishes, now you agree that there was a problem with the page but, never mind that I pointed it out (like a number of others) and got insulted by Lute88 for it, he is making us lose time. Let's just ban him and these pesky issues of inaccuracies will disappear. Why then did you, volunteer Marek and Lute88 consistently refuse to discuss the issue with me on the article's talk page, if your only concern was to save the community's time? On this waste of time, I beg to differ. There should be a whole team of editors dedicated to tracking inaccuracies (disinformation) if instead of using WP to further an agenda, we want to preserve it as a repository of knowledge anyone can trust.

Lute88, My very best wishes, Volunteer Marek and Ymblanter are all defending the same POV, roughly stated: Russia is evil. This is their right. However, my goal is to help (as much as my capacities allow) to rid Wikipedia of inaccuracies or, worse, disinformation. I knew this would not attract much sympathy but I did not expect a witch hunt. Now, there is a whole group who share a strongly felt common point of view on everything that concerns Russia and they are hellbent on having me out, because I am an irritant to them. It's very funny that I am accused of WP:BATTLE wwhen Lute88 has erased, without trying to discuss with me, any single edit I made in the last ten days. Now, My very best wishes promised him to help him on the ANI and, of course, here he is trying to put me in as bad a light as he can. This is very sad. I would have preferred, as I have asked many times, a reasoned discussion on the substance of the issues I raised, but I have been consistently dismissed by them.I think this is a loss of time. Why could he not just acknowledge that he went a bit too far when he accused me of being paid by Putin? I would just have said ok, that's alright and all this would not even have started. Againstdisinformation (talk) 15:14, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

"Volunteer Marek and Ymblanter are all defending the same POV, roughly stated: Russia is evil" - Didn't you just show up here to whine about how you're bring "slandered"? Volunteer Marek  20:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Making factually incorrect statements and accusing others without evidence on the ANI is a very bad idea. In particular, (a) no one refused to discuss anything with you (there are very long discussions on article talk pages by numerous users), (b) none of the users you mentioned have "evil" POV you stated, (c) at least three users (including me) on the article talk page did not agree with your removal of this info (this is something debatable), (d) I did not promise Lute88 to "help" on the ANI, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 16:17, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Who is making factually incorrect statements. Let me quote you: "I know these subjects and might be willing to help with sourcing, but discussing anything with such guys again is something I would rather not do". This is taken from the 'A comment' section of Lute88' talk page, which is entirely devoted to me. It's absolutely your right to come to his defense, but this shows also that you were, let's say, reluctant to discuss the issue with me. And where did I ever state that any user had an "evil" POV? Everyone of us has a POV and it would be ludicrous to describe any POV as "evil". It is precisely through the confrontation of POVs that we can hope to achieve impartiality or, at least, consensus. Againstdisinformation (talk) 16:37, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to continue this discussion here. As others have said, there's no point demanding someone apologise, and ANI isn't the place for that any way. The rest is a content dispute which can be resolved either on the article talk page, or via some other method of WP:dispute resolution. Nil Einne (talk) 03:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Nil Einne, I think you are right. This has gone on for too long now and we might as well leave it at that. However, I am not asking an apology from Lute88, I am just asking him to take back his claim that I am paid by the Kremlin. He does not have to apologise, he can just say that he didn't really mean what he said and all would be forgotten. Againstdisinformation (talk) 04:41, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Still not something for ANI, at most a single request on the editor's talk page. Nil Einne (talk) 05:06, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Given the short amount of time Againstdisinformation has been actively 'editing' here, there's been an awful lot of community time sunk into "I've been hard done by" agitation, and "I'm here to right great wrongs" (i.e., WP:NOTHERE). It grew very WP:TEDIOUS some time ago (see this and this ANI). Jangled nerves, hurt feelings, and complaints every time there's a personality clash do not make for useful gadflies but, rather, a needy entity who confuses experienced editors over what the real issue at stake is. There's been no lack of patience been shown the user by other editors, yet the ICANTHEARYOU attitude persists. I truly believe that Againstdisinformation needs to gain more experience in editing articles s/he doesn't feel emotionally invested in before jumping into contentious areas of Wikipedia. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy I agree with you on one point. ANI was not the proper venue for the dispute between Lute88 and me. I have come to realize this. It is unhelpful and a great loss of time, especially for me. I am reluctant by nature to report anyone as I have already told Lute88. This is the first and last time I do it. However, Lute88 has been erasing almost every edit I made in the last ten days, without any explanation. I did not complain. He only entered the discussion on the talk page of the article Anna Politkovskaya after an admin agreed with me and deleted the contentious phrase. He also reverted her but she told him she would have none of it. Probably not happy with this, he suggested I was paid by the Kremlin. The admin told him that this was not funny and I asked him to take back his words. His response was: 'No fun intended. Againstdisinformation has been pushing the proRussian POV envelope here for some time. And there has been recent media coverage of some professional (and paid too) POV promoters on Wiki. Just being vigilant.’ Is this civil behaviour ? Now, I don’t see why you provide links to two ANI, which are supposed to shed a bad light on my behavior. The first one was brought against me by Reaganomics88 about misplaced quotation marks. An edit already long since corrected and for which I had apologized (talking of wasting the community’s time). The second ANI was brought against Reaganomics by a third editor and I have nothing to do with it. It's true that, in trying to improve what I perceive as biased articles, I have attracted a lot of animosity, but I challenge you to find a single instance of rudeness, threats or complaints on my part. I have always tried (without much success) to discuss the content and I have never made any ad hominem attack. Againstdisinformation (talk) 13:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

@Againstdisinformation: You're working on the premise that being uncivil is easily identified by personal attacks. No, it is not that cut and dry. Read WP:IUC on Other uncivil behaviours. Introducing this to the talk page of the "2014–15 Russian military intervention in Ukraine" was not determined by your wanting to 'improve Wikipedia', but to behave in an intentionally disruptive and provocative manner (aside from canvassing/advertising for fellow 'righteous' brother and sisters in arms to join you in your battle for the truth). After this was removed from the talk page, you reinstated it twice after two editors had already removed it. There's no small irony in the fact that you've painted yourself as being the victim of Groupthink, yet you're trying to enlist like-minded editors to create your own Groupthink battalion... and all after you have had numerous editors patiently (escalating to impatiently) trying to explain Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and your responding with what have become obviously ingenuous apologies for the error of your ways, and that you now know better and won't repeat them. Is stuffing beans up your nose just a compulsion you can't shake, or is this evidence that you're WP:NOTHERE in any shape or form, and have no intention of trying to be HERE? 'But I've never made any personal attacks' does not make you a civil editor: it just means that you want to WP:GAME the system by hook or by crook. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:54, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Indef block Againstdisinformation until such time that they can understand the difference between a snippy remark and a full on personal attack, until such time that they understand that badgering the opposition (through repeated and loquacious postings) does not make for a collaborative editing environment, until such time that they have familiarized themselves with wikipedia rules/policy/practices/guidelines including WP:RGW. Reading this complaint provides nothing more than a single editor doubling down on doubling down on a content problem. We've already expended enough time/energy on this editor without extracting certain guarantees of improved behavior. Hasteur (talk) 17:32, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef block for Againstdisinformation. The reason: she/he continue making factually incorrect accusations against other users right on this noticeboard, even after being warned about it. In particular, Againstdisinformation complained about being followed by Lute88 who allegedly refused to discuss. But in fact just the opposite occurred on this page. As clear from the editing history, it was Againstdisinformation who came to revert edit by Lute88, not the other way around (unless another red-linked account was an alternative account of Againstdisinformation). And it was Lute88 who started discussion on this article talk page [18], but received no response from Againstdisinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 19:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

If you think that it is OK to frivolously accuse an editor to be "paid by the Kremlin" and that not understanding that it is just a "snippy remark" deserves being indefinitely blocked then, please, do it. I am used to polite academic debate, not to trading insults. This is the last post I make to explain my perception of what happened, I am growing tired of an almost palpable aggressivity on the part of some editors. Againstdisinformation (talk) 20:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

I never said it was OK. This is not OK. Once again, you accuses someone of something he never did or said. My very best wishes (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

• My very best wishes is mistaken in saying that Againstdisinformation is "a 'disruption only' account"; he/she contributed usefully at Talk:Yulia Tymoshenko#Allegations of torture. As for whether he/she is paid to edit, I can only suggest the WP:Duck test.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:53, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

I can see only one minor edit by Againstdiscrimination on this page. Is it all one can tell in favor of this user? I am not even sure this edit was an improvement because it has been reverted later by FPS. My very best wishes (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

@My very best wishes: your link is to the article page; look at the talk page.-- Toddy1 (talk) 05:04, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, here is my reading of this. Timoshenko was put in prison by Yanukovich government for political reasons. That is what sources tell. Againstdisinformation is trying to minimize significance of this by referring to a remotely relevant primary source. I can't blame FPS who reverted this in the article (diff above). This is not a positive contribution by Againstdisinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 11:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• I agree, I do not think that Againstdisinformation is a disruption only account but they have shown a long term pattern of disruptive editing that appears to push a pro-Russian agenda. They have a tendency to twist the truth for their convenience and portray themselves as a victim of aggression whenever they do not get their own way (I personally found myself accused of being part of some kind of shady conspiracy that had been formed to act against them). I think some kind of admin intervention is needed as the rules have been explained to them countless times yet they show no signs of improving their behaviour. --Reaganomics88 (talk) 21:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

I note that ADI is talk page harassing people who are opposing them on their talk pages Hasteur (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• Ah, slander and libel, that's not really what is happening here. If Againstdisinformation is indefinitely blocked, it's probably because they talk too much. The posts on the talk pages of Hasteur and Reaganomics are a bit silly, and unwise, but it doesn't rise to the level of harassment. Lute88's comments aren't really sanctionable, but they're very uncollegial, and thus also unwise. Now, that I happen to agree with Againstdisinformation on that birthday thing in that one article doesn't mean I don't consider their edits to exhibit a pro-Russian slant. So I'm torn a bit, not in the least because the stubborn resistance to the birthday thing revealed a similar contrasting POV from the other side; I can't help but wonder what would have happened if I hadn't come along and played the admin. I'm pretty sure that Againstdisinformation wouldn't have been able to solve that problem by themselves, since their comments are simply too wordy and their tone too sarcastic, besides having that POV. So yeah, I'll break a lance for them, just a little bit, but that's also because I am a bit disappointed with the opponents. (Not Volunteer Marek, of course, who I despise for football-related reasons.) Drmies (talk) 03:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, I talked with him, but did not see anything encouraging. For example, the way he mentioned you here is troubling. My very best wishes (talk) 05:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

It is not troubling that he/she wrote that "it didn't convince Drmies either". Nor is it troubling that he/she asked you sarcastically "do you believe that she [Drmies] too is on the Kremlin's payroll?"-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, he/she made this edit. I asked what they know about the subject from secondary RS [19]. They did not respond to the question, but said that sources are not important because he/she knows everything already ("Even if I was an alien and I didn't know anything about Russia, the story would still sound preposterous to me" [20]) and implicitly accuses me of supporting claim by Lute88 that I do not support at all [21]. His/her problem is not being "too wordy", but inability (or lack o desire) to contribute constructively to the project. Hence indeff. My very best wishes (talk) 11:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support: I dislike indeffing a new editor who's made productive edits, but after a decade-plus on Wikipedia, I don't think I can recall as many as a half-dozen cases where an attitude problem like this calms down to be a productive, civil editor. (I can recall quite a few of the MickMacNees of the world, where a large enough edit count somehow allows them to make hundreds of uncivil edits with impunity.) Better nip this one in the bud. Ravenswing 11:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
• I will not comment on the indefblock, but the claim that I defend[ing the same] POV, roughly stated: Russia is evil is laughable. Last time I was dragged on ANI it was a troublesome Ukrainian user claiming I am a strong pro-Russian POV pusher.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
  • So either you're an equal-opportunity offender or just a pro-Slav activist. Or you can't make up your mind and should read Dante's Inferno, Canto 3, as a warning. Drmies (talk) 17:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

    If I sum up all accusations in power-pushing in my 8 years here pro-Slav sounds too narrow: I am also pro-Armenian, pro-Azeri, pro-German and I think it was smth else. Inferno, Canto 3 I definitely read several times (in translation; now I should try the original). Sounds the closest to my situation.Ymblanter (talk) 17:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Support an indef block for Againstdisinformation. They show no signs of improving and the key issues have been dragging on for months now.

They appear to be on Wikipedia chiefly to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS (or at least perceived wrongs).

They have responded in a combative manner to multiple editors and behaved in a manner that violates WP:WQ. This in particular has caused me a great deal of grief personally, just recently I was asked "can you behave like this and still look at yourself in the mirror?" I have lost count of the number of attacks this user has made on myself and other users. If these were isolated incidents then I would believe that just a warning would suffice. However it is clearly a greater trend and is causing damage to the community. This user has to be stopped. Reaganomics88 (talk) 19:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• Yeah, indef him!!! Good idea! And then we give a medal to Lute88! Sorry, just joking. In my view Lute88 is trying to enforce a specific non-neutral point of view, which btw, is strictly forbidden according to the behavioral guideline of gaming the system. Keep in mind that reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. However, Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. Erlbaeko (talk) 19:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I am afraid I agree with Ravenswing , we ought to nip this one in the bud. This is not just about the issue with Lute88, this about a greater civility and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS issue. This user has been warned countless times yet continued to persist with their behaviour. Reaganomics88 (talk) 20:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I think admins might be willing to give Againstdisinformation a little more "rope", however, without having any promises that he will stop making irrelevant political rants (like here [22], [23]) or ridiculously confrontational comments (like here), I am afraid this is going to continue. My very best wishes (talk) 18:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• I also think that's what happening. Note that I am not swinging my admin tool (yet) here since I am interested in more opinions; clearly too many admins are already bored by the topic and aren't weighing in. That's a shame. As for those three diffs, I think I read AD the riot act about that forum post, and the personal accusation ("go see your shrink"), if I had seen that I might have blocked for it on the spot. More of that, since it does add up, will no doubt lead to a block and they better beware. I mean, Putin is paying me some serious cash (actually, he's paying me in confiscated Dutch cheeses), but there are limits to my loyalty. Drmies (talk) 22:42, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I my opinion Lute88, should be blocked for disruptive editing. He is clearly trying to enforce a specific non-neutral point of view. Ref.

• Revision as of 21:57, 7 September 2015
• Revision as of 23:31, 1 September 2015
• Revision as of 01:44, 1 September 2015
• Revision as of 00:25, 31 August 2015

Volunteer Marek and Skere789 should be warned too. Ref:

• Revision as of 20:25, 13 September 2015 Updated 13 September 2015
• Revision as of 19:25, 13 September 2015 Updated 13 September 2015
• Revision as of 06:51, 7 September 2015
• Revision as of 19:17, 7 September 2014

Erlbaeko (talk) 10:09, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Here is the difference between Lute88 and Againstdisinformation. In the diff you provided [24] Lute88 restores a fair summary of something that a reliable source tells. It is enough to make translation of the title from Russian: "Politkovskaya and Putin. Day of death and day of birth." (Политковская и Путин. День смерти и день рождения.). The source does make such connection, and for a number of good reasons. Author of the publication is a well known and a highly respected journalist. A lot of other RS tells exactly the same, as has been already noted on the talk page [25]. On the other hand, "Againstdisinformation" is a perfect "warrior for the truth" who removes this info only because it seems "preposterous" to him [26] and without providing any sources on the subject he does not know and does not want to know (the diff is response to my question on what they read about this). Yes, I agree that Lute88 was wrong. She had to remain civil and rise concerns, if any, on an appropriate noticeboard, such as WP:COINB in this case. Does it warrant this long ANI discussion? No, I do not think so. This long discussion had happened only because of the highly problematic behavior by user Againstdisinformation. My very best wishes (talk) 12:48, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

There is also another difference. Againstdisinformation use the talk page. Lute88 does not. That is true until an admin intervene. First post on that talk page by Lute88 is this: Revision as of 22:00, 7 September 2015, three minutes after the users fourth revert.

And no, a translation of the title is not enouth. Maybe you can translate this part? "Был ли это подарок ему, или, напротив, кто-то хотел напакостить? Или это мистическое совпадение? Мы не будем гадать сегодня.". This is nothing but speculations and it does violate WP:NPOV to include it. Erlbaeko (talk) 14:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

After reading the entire publication it is abundantly clear that it does make such connection: someone killed her on Putin's birthday because she criticized Putin personally. Same claim appears in a large number of English language RS (diff above). As, about "contributions" by Againsdisinformation on this article talk page, here they are (in chronological order): 1st comment, 2nd comment, 3d comment, and so on. It would be much better if he did not take part in this discussion with such comments. My very best wishes (talk) 15:32, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

If you don't want to translate it, maybe you can verify the Google translation of the article? Does the part I quoted translate to; "Was it a gift to him, or, on the contrary, someone wanted to play a prank? Or is it a mystical coincidence? We will not speculate today." or is Google wrong? Erlbaeko (talk) 16:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

This is not a place to discuss translations and sources. Please see discussion on article talk page. My very best wishes (talk) 02:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, you brought it up here. Erlbaeko (talk) 07:14, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• Againstdisinformation just received a topic ban, however his problem is not a bias in a narrowly defined subject area, but telling something that is simply not true about other users (and he does it even during standing ANI request [27],[28]), and irrelevant political rants [29]. BTW, he did receive previously an official WP:AE warning [30]. My very best wishes (talk) 13:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• @My very best wishes: Where did Antidisinformation receive a topic ban? I can't find it. BMK (talk) 22:33, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Here, at the bottom. He/she removed the notice from their talk page. My very best wishes (talk) 22:40, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't realize it was a AC/DS sanction. BMK (talk) 22:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Fyi, Volunteer Marek was also warned. He/she also removed the notice from their talk page. Erlbaeko (talk) 08:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

You've gone completely WP:OFFTOPIC here, Erlbaeko. Stop finger-pointing in order to play out your personal animosities: or are you just shopping? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:26, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I believe that warning was connected to this case, and so is this edit warring report against Beyond My Ken, which btw, was closed without any action against him. Erlbaeko (talk) 08:26, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Erlaebko, as Iryna points out you are only here to pursue grudges, and in your attempts to shop for blocks you've completely managed to hijack this thread (putting aside your false statements). Keep going please - in my experience that's a pretty quick way to get yourself blocked. Volunteer Marek  15:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Please, stop speculating about my motives for commenting here. It may be seen as a personal attack. Erlbaeko (talk) 19:26, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I see. Yes, under such circumstances I feel compelled to take it on good faith that you have absolutely no 'personal' agenda per this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this on another Eastern Europe article you've never been involved in before and, presumably, forgot to read through its 9 talk pages. Your lack of POV interest is duly noted. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

That is just another personal attack on me, and totally off topic. Btw, you are welcome to comment on the discussion I started regarding the verifiability of that info. It's here. Erlbaeko (talk) 07:29, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Persistently invoking 'personal attack' does not make it so. I am making a candid and verifiable observation as to your behaviour. Again, looking at the discussions (plural) you've started on that article's talk page merely confirms that you haven't read the current talk page, nor the archived talk pages. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:07, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

My edits on the War in Donbass-article are in no way related to this dispute, which essentially deals with the behavior of editors in a content dispute (whether Putin's birthday should be linked to the murder of Anna Politkovskaya, or not). Please, restrict your comments to that case, and stop commenting on the contributors to this discussion. Note that repeated "personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks." Erlbaeko (talk) 10:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Boaxy behavior at Sailor Moon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This whole drama started when Boaxy attempted to add several LGBT categories to Sailor Moon and Sailor Moon (anime). However, several editors, including myself, disagreed with the broad interpretation of the categories and opposed the addition. Boaxy then began to edit war over the categories' inclusion until the articles were protected. An RfC was opened at Talk:Sailor Moon by Sjones23 about whether LGBT was a main theme of the series, which concluded that it was not. Boaxy then immediately opened a second RfC about the categories, during which Boaxy threw fits and began attacking other editors for being anti-gay and insisting that Wikipedia be "politically correct".[31][32][33] AlbinoFerret closed the second RfC as no consensus for including the categories.[34] However instead of excepting the outcome of the RfC, Boaxy throws another tantrum, attacking other editors opposing his position, and add the categories despite the closing of the RfC.[35][36][37][38] The editor is clearly here to push a political viewpoint on this particular set of articles and is unwilling to accept that consensus was not in his favor. —Farix (t | c) 12:31, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

• Hmm, second time this morning that the word "petulant" comes to mind. This is obviously editing against consensus and needless cussing. If Boaxy has been here this long they should know the difference between a block and a ban--the former is what they'll get if they continue. Boaxy, drop the stick please. This is silly. Drmies (talk) 14:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
• I'm not dropping the stick. I am going to permanently infuse it to my hand. I'm sorry for going off, but I'll give a cooling down period before I venture on with this again. This is far from over. I apologize for not controlling my temper, but I still feel those categories should be added to the page. That's like not adding a US Presidents category to Obama's page. It just doesn't make sense. You have a pop culture television series in which four of the eight or so main characters are homosexual, and you don't add LGBT categories? This is some Twilight Zone crap. Boaxy (talk) 05:27, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
  • @Boaxy: Argh. Instead of threatening to edit war indefinitely, why not find a few reliable sources that discuss LGBT themes in Sailor Moon and add them to the article? According to a quick Google search, there is discussion of them. Since you know the show, I'm sure you could find even better results than I found. Don't get yourself blocked over this. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:48, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
    • It is what it is at this point. I'm not going to sugar coat my attitude over something I feel strongly about. I apologized for disrupting the talk page and that is that. This is the place where I plead my case and justify my actions, so I need to be sincere. If you challenge a geologist on the Grand Canyon article, he will be defensive about it. You challenge a pop culture enthusiast, (which is myself) on an article related to a television series he grew up watching and is a big supporter of, he will be defensive. To me there is already enough sources and references on the article to back the categories being added. But for the sake of Wikipedia, I will try to contribute more. In the same token, I have to go through this all over again, and again it has to be in consensus to be included which even then they still might not be. Ugh. Do you see the issue now? Boaxy (talk) 06:57, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Boaxy statements above and complete refusal to accept the outcomes of two previous RfC should be enough to warrant a topic ban on all Sailor Moon-related articles. This editor has clearly crossed over into WP:TENDENTIOUSness. —Farix (t | c) 18:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban: Boaxy is becoming both tendentious and point-y. Dragging people to repeated RfC's that are bound to have the same outcome as the previous. Their own words ("I'm not dropping the stick. I am going to permanently infuse it to my hand.") indicate that he will not stop disrupting the project until they get their own way. A topic ban seems more than appropriate. Azealia911 _talk 19:57, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• In this message left on Boaxy's user talk in July, someone said that to include the categories would give readers the impression that all Sailor Moon fans are gay. Also, when he attempted to add a WikiProject banner, it was reverted. I don't think it excuses his tendentious behavior, but I can understand some of Boaxy's consternation and frustration over this matter. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:19, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban: enough is enough. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:22, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Whether you feel strongly about it or not is irrelevant. You are yet to present reliable sources to back your claims and an RFC produced a consensus not to include the categories. Until you can produce sources that will convince the other editors that your have a point, your refusal to drop the stick is only going to get you blocked. Blackmane (talk) 11:21, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support Enough is enough, we spend more time than we should hand holding and babysitting users who refuse to edit in a collaborative manner.--Adam in MO Talk 11:29, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Boaxy immediately violates topic ban after being informed of it

After being informed of his topic ban by TomStar81, Boaxy immediately posts to the talk page of Sailor Moon complaining about the ban. Seriously, this guy has no clue. —Farix (t | c) 14:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

From that post, he is asking whether or not the TB applies to the talk pages too, and is threatening to leave Wikipedia if it does. AFAIK, topic bans apply across all space, unless specifically excepted, don't they? Mjroots (talk) 17:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

As per WP:TBAN, "Unless clearly and unambiguously specified otherwise, a topic ban covers all pages (not only articles) broadly related to the topic, as well as the parts of other pages that are related to the topic," so, yes, article talk pages are also included. I've left a message to that effect at Boaxy's user talk page here. John Carter (talk) 17:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Seems the message still didn't get through this morning: [39] Wildthing61476 (talk) 13:35, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Still posting to Talk:Sailor Moon after he was directly informed that doing so was a violation of his topic ban. Still complaining about the same topic for which caused his topic ban in the first place. Still name calling other editors that disagree with him.[40] —Farix (t | c) 13:47, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposed sanction on Boaxy

Sorry for starting this as a separate section, but it looks like Boaxy ain't got the message yet, and some sort of block seems required to keep him from further violating the topic ban. I'm not going to say how long I think the block should be, but I would think a slightly longer one would be at least reasonable. John Carter (talk) 14:35, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked Boaxy for 24 hours. Given that this is the first violation of a very new topic ban, and that they have a clean block log (outside of a name change issue from 2010), I don't see how a longer block is warranted. I did, however, leave a warning that further violations would lead to increasing block lengths.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 15:15, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Threat of Outing / Personal Attacks

Oliv0 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Lebob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Azurfrog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Schlum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Hello, 4 users from the French Wikipedia (single purpose accounts on the English Wikipedia to "gain control of the page") are threatening to disclose my identity. This come after an edit war that was closed in my favor and the other side bannished for H24. They can not discuss changes in the articles with edit justification so they have to go through personal attacks. One user warned them about that personal attacks are useless to justify changes, but they continue their threat on that other user. Please note that these users have pushed until 4 times (See here and here!!) of the deletion of the related article of Asselineau and finally changed their position to maintain the article but to influence as a group on the content for the article (by azurfrog who lead the team).

• Oliv0 (talk) threatening "[[User:D0kkaebi]]=[[User:Lawren00]], who is well-known as a high-ranking member and activist of this micro-party" revealing my previous nickname that was changed for privacy issue
• Lebob (talk) threatening "As such this would not disturb me too much if it would also not appear that he has endorsed medium or high level responsibilities in the UPR organization, which he has never disclosed (at least to the best of my knowledge)"
• Azurfrog (talk) threatening "shouldn't we, after all, state who D0kkaebi/Lawren00 really is? Shouldn't we disclose his exact rank [http://www.upr.fr/responsables within the Popular Republican Union organization, since he never did it himself?" and "shouldn't D0kkaebi/Lawren00 have immediately disclosed (on his talk page and in the edit summary accompanying any paid contributions) that he is a high ranking member of PRU"]
• Oliv0 (talk) justifying his personal attacks by doing other personal attacks after being warned that his personal attacks dont help solving the edit war
• Azurfrog (talk) continuing on personal attacks against user who warned them
• Schlum (talk) who is the origin if this personal attack something tells me it’s D0kkaebi aka Lawren00, member of UPR team
• Lebob (talk) saying my I get approval from UPR party to participate in Wikipedia

I will wait the result of this request before requesting an oversight. D0kkaebi (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

The behavior of those users is ridiculous (apparently they don't know or care about WP:OWN); however, in none of those diffs did I see anyone threaten to out you. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 23:54, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

@D0kkaebi: I see on your user talk page that you are asking that others not refer to you by a prior user name. Is that the outing of which you are speaking? If so, providing a diff to when someone referred to you by that name, or whatever other name you consider outing, would be helpful. John Carter (talk) 00:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

• Erpert, I don't know where I stand on this one yet, but "shouldn't we, after all, state who D0kkaebi/Lawren00 really is? " is pretty damn clear. Drmies (talk) 00:30, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Oops, guess I missed that part. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:32, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

How should D0kkaebi's suspected Conflict of Interest be best dealt with?

Erpert, Drmies and John Carter: my remark, "shouldn't we, after all, state who D0kkaebi/Lawren00 really is?" meant nothing more than what Schlum just stated below, with appropriate public links showing that Lawren00/D0kkaebi is indeed a very senior lieutenant of François Asselineau within his organization. At the very least, there is enough readily available information to authorize legitimate misgivings about D0kkaebi's "neutrality".
Reminder: "references to still-existing, self-disclosed information is not considered outing"..
From which I gather that this entire discussion on these so-called "Threat of Outing / Personal Attacks" is groundless, since they are all based upon "still-existing, self-disclosed information". --Azurfrog (talk) 08:44, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

So did you check the link you are posting? Did you read the first sentence? Let me quote that for you just in case you missed it: "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person had voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia." Now can you give us a link where Laurent Pawlowski from UPR is claiming being member of Wikipedia under the nickname D0kkaebi? And vice-versa, do you have a link where user:D0kkaebi is claiming being Laurent Pawlowski from UPR? Unless you give us a link that expressly shows that, those information are not voluntarily posted. You are threatening of outing and this, "whether any such information is accurate or not". D0kkaebi (talk) 23:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

You are outing yourself here, nobody mentioned your name, only your well-known affiliation to the party when you are the main contributor to the articles about the party and its leader. Oliv0 (talk) 05:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, well, well, D0kkaebi... Thank you for coming out at long last, just as I recommended.
As for myself, I abstained from ever mentioning your personal information, even though you should have.
Now then, you still have to state to which degree you fall within the scope of Wikimedia Foundation: Disclosure of Paid Editing.
And please keep in mind: Many believe that users with a potential conflict of interest should engage in transparent collaboration, requiring honest disclosure of paid contributions. Making contributions to the Wikimedia projects without disclosing payment or employment may also lead to legal ramifications --Azurfrog (talk) 17:31, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I am not convinced this kind of "affiliation" (local party leader) is what is meant in WP:DISCLOSEPAY, but in WP:COI certainly, and I now discover (sorry for not being an experienced editor here) that WP:COIN is the right place to go and then allows use of {{Connected contributor}} {{COI}} etc. So since you know best about your conclusion of COI in the French AfD for the party leader Asselineau (and you may remember the results of the simple Google search you mention which then gave more useful results from social networks), maybe you could do it? Oliv0 (talk) 19:45, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:COIN certainly seems an appropriate place to report such a conflict of interest as the one we have to deal with. However, I am not convinced either that it does not fall under WP:DISCLOSEPAY: after all, it is difficult to claim that that a local party leader is not an "affiliate" of his own party, even as defined by WP ("Affiliation refers to other connections that might be relevant"). But you are right, we should probably start by reporting on WP:COIN. --Azurfrog (talk) 08:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

 Note: I will have no or little Internet access (in the mountains) for 6 days starting this afternoon, so I will not be able to answer here or help on COIN. Oliv0 (talk) 08:47, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

 Done: Oliv0 - Lebob - D0kkaebi - Schlum

I just started a request on WP:COIN here.
So, D0kkaebi, I finally fulfilled what you called my "threat": that is, not "out" personal information about you, but simply disclose your close connection with François Asselineau and his party, as you should have done in the first place.
Now, on WP as well as anywhere else, I do not think that threatening to place a legitimate request disclosing this connection and the resulting conflict of interest - as I just did - can in any way be considered as a "personal attack". --Azurfrog (talk) 09:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

General discussion

All 4 users notified. Userlinks added to top of thread. Blackmane (talk) 02:21, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

I listed all the personal threats above. There are several. If you need additional explanation or links for evidence, let me know. By the way, shall I request for oversight, or shall I wait the result of this incident? I do not feel comfortable seeing my previous nickname and that I am paid by UPR for my contributions on wikipedia D0kkaebi (talk) 03:15, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

No personal attacks or threats in the 2 diffs by me above (I put a nowiki in the first one since it did not display the diff). Outing would mean personal details not already known, but the French AfD I refer to in the first diff mentions at a prominent place as an important fact that Lawren00 is the Lawren00 that could at that time (much less now) be seen on social networks as an activist from the micro-party Popular Republican Union (2007) and among those shown as local leaders on the party's website. The correspondence between D0kkaebi and Lawren00 is something I saw in "What links here" on User:D0kkaebi after I noticed an edit war in which D0kkaebi, who first started undoing disputable changes by Francis Le français, then used the opportunity to modify even more with a definite POV. So I believe this mention of a "POV by D0kkaebi/Lawren00" in the talk page is useful to editors, so that they can have a better view of his frequent arguments and of the possible edit wars on Popular Republican Union (2007) and François Asselineau. As for Wikipedia:Paid-contribution disclosure mentioned in the talk page, I do not think he is paid anything by the micro-party, his POV is rather out of personal conviction. Oliv0 (talk) 06:24, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Your diff mentions half a sentence and your comments on the talk page about personal attacks is 4 lines + 20 from your crew. You justified your revert on several topics and summarized by " addition of "gaullism", "centrist" and removal of section about Internet activism certainly goes against NPOV, article improved by undoing this". Just to discuss one claim, Centrism has been extensively discussed on the talk page here and the only undoubtedly neutral user participating in the page, Ravenswing , concluded that the proper translation for English native is "centrist". I did not agree neither as I preferred "syncretic" but since Ravenswing is neutral, I apply his proposal as a proper consensus. I do not understand why your opinion should prevail on previous discussions and consensus reached on the talk page. Is it because you are admin on the French wikipedia or related to many of them and used to impose your POV without prior discussions? I hope not, and thus, please discuss on the talk before imposing your opinion. D0kkaebi (talk) 07:29, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My edit summary you quote just above was clear, and your assertion is false that on the talk page in the link you mention @Ravenswing: would have said that "centrist" is a good English word for what the micro-party calls "neither left nor right / above left and right" (that is, focusing on anti-europeanism and not on left-right divisions).

And you should certainly not be the one demanding that any modification from other users should first get your approval on the talk page, given your known POV as a local leader of this party (btw, I just had a look at WP:DISCLOSEPAY and it is not clear to me if this counts or not as an "affiliation" that has to be disclosed). Oliv0 (talk) 08:20, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

So you say Ravenswing did not say "centrist" is the proper word to describe UPR's political positioning? It does not look like you even checked the link. Rather than interpretation, I'll just quote his words "We need pay no attention to what a Frenchman would call "centrist" -- what matters is what your average English-speaker would think of as "centrist".". This is the best evidence that you just impose your POV without even checking prior discussions and even ignoring others' input. I did not agree with him, but I agree on the logic he brought for the sake of the consensus. So who is not neutral here? D0kkaebi (talk) 22:46, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Here you are being non neutral, @Ravenswing: only said that the English word is not to be avoided because of the French meaning, which does not say it is the appropriate word in English. In fact, "centrist" and "gaullism" mentioned in my edit summary quoted above and probably even "syncretic" are all a POV attempt at a more positive vocabulary than the sources. Oliv0 (talk) 06:46, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, so let's summary. The sources says "neither right nor left", so I write this in the article but that's a POV. Another user suggests that syncretic would be more understandable for English Native but that's a POV. Then Ravenswing write instead "centrism" in the article, then it is debated on the talk page, but that's also a POV. In brief, everything not inputted by yourself is a POV. Do we understand correctly the logic of Oliv0pedia? D0kkaebi (talk) 23:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Stick to the independent sources, that is not POV. So far you did not mention Ravenswing wrote "centrism" in the article, the talk page is more important and does not conclude "centrism".

Also please stop saying everybody else has a POV, wants to impose the French WP on the English WP and wants to control the article that they think their WP:OWN, since everybody now saw your POV and COI as a local official of the party who wants to control the article that you think your WP:OWN. Oliv0 (talk) 05:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

No personal attacks, and nothing which is not public here ; User:Lawren00 is a redirection to User:D0kkaebi, Lawren00 having public Twitter account with his name ([41]), and this guy telling everything about him and his relations with the UPR on Facebook public page ([42]). Btw, as he is in the board team of the UPR and is quite heavily implicated in the redaction & maintenance of François Asselineau and Popular Republican Union (2007) (with strong Wikipedia:Conflict of interest), doing edit wars with many users on both articles, he should provide the information on his user page by the WMF rules (at least if he receives financial compensations for his activities). Schlum (talk) 07:51, 9 September 2015 (UTC) PS : my contributions list on en WP show that I’m far from being the WP:SPA User:D0kkaebi is on the PRU & F. Asselineau subject… Schlum (talk) 11:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Come on now, D0kkaebi! Is it a "personal attack" or a "personal threat" to suggest that you disclose your relationship with François Asslineau and his Popular Republican Union, as it is central to understanding the reason behind your ongoing claim that most of the other contributors are "not neutral"?
On the other hand, you are now accusing me of being "a single-purpose account on the English WP"... Well, this is definitely not the case, even though I spent an undue amount of time recently on this matter.
Moreover, you are deliberately misquoting me as having said that we were trying to "gain control of the page"(please provide the exact wording), whereas practically all of your own contributions revolve around François Asselineau. Who's an SPA now?
Beyond that, I am a bit tired to see that everytime a thread on a talk page develops into a consensus against your opinion, you resort to administrators: as far as I am concerned, I can assure you that I have plenty of other interests beyond François Asselineau, and would be glad to leave the matter, were it not for the sustained edit-war raging around "his" articles (edit-war in which I have no part, as evidenced by my recent contributions to these articles, which have been extremely limited, or even non existent). --Azurfrog (talk) 08:16, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

All right, here is another thing. You have no interest for Asselineau topic, and you would like to move on. I guess that is the same motive that pushed you to go on the Lombard Wikipedia, not even respecting the users there since you do not speak "lombard" by requesting in English to suppress the page of Asselineau. Same thing on the Esperanto page or on the old English page. Do I need to list more to show your non-interest for the topic?

Now, when you and your crew have [nominated for the 4th time (!?!) the suppression of the Asselineau article], would you like me to remind the words of undoubtedly neutral English native users?

# Silverseren^C: "oppose French Wikipedia control AGAIN? Are you serious? The previous two AfDs ended in Keep and now people from French Wikipedia are, yet again, trying to control English Wikipedia." or "This is just French Wikipedia editors and administrators' trying to control content on other Wikipedias for subjects that they dislike and these actions are appalling."

# S Marshall T/C: "Keep per my detailed reasoning at the many previous AfDs and DRVs at which French users tried to get this article deleted on various spurious grounds. Also, while I'm doing the thing where you summarise your opinion using words in bold, I need to add surely not this AGAIN and this is not fr.wiki."

# Carrite (talk): "This entire nomination seems to me a POV-driven exercise and is highly disruptive."

In addition, note that that your WP:OWN and POV have discouraged the only undoubtedly neutral English contributors to the article, Ravenswing , quoting his word when invited to share his opinion here " given that this kind of nonsense is going to go on barring a big change, I don't have the mental energy to spare to play permanent watchdog for them."

And the cherry on the cake for the conclusion, here is the evidence that one member of your crew gathered people on the admin noticeboard to rule Wiki:en. Quoting the words of your friend LPLT: "Un courageux pour aller porter le fer sur cette wiki ? / Is there any courageous person to start a war on en:wiki?" I guess, that close the case regarding your neutrality. D0kkaebi (talk) 00:47, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Aller porter le fer (lit. "go and carry the iron [sword]") is not "start a war" but "go to fight", here in the interest of neutrality against your well-known POV, a noble task for an admin but which unfortunately needs much "mental energy to spare to play permanent watchdog" indeed. Oliv0 (talk) 07:50, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Of course, aller porter le fer does mean wage a war (and your explanation shows it perfectly clearly, by the way). You are wasting your/everybody's time here. The only issue discussed in this thread is: Did the users in question threaten to out D0kkaebi (on this Wikipedia)? The answer is obvious. It's a blatant yes. (Some of you even had the nerve to do it again in this very thread!).--Wr. Sr. (t) 09:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "Wage" (Oxford compact: "Carry on (a war or campaign)"), not "start".

I certainly did not threaten to "out", only warned about a user's WP:COI and "affiliation" (WP:DISCLOSEPAY: "Terms of Use prohibit (...) misrepresentation of affiliation", "Affiliation refers to other connections that might be relevant" which is not very clear, I am not sure it applies to the local leader of a party if he is not paid). Oliv0 (talk) 10:22, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, it's amazing to realize that I am now accused of being a single purpose by someone who has devoted a substantial part of his time on WP(en) to contribute to the articles François Asselineau and/or UPR. Just to get facts clear I am on WP(en) since November 2006 where I have 1144 contributions on 484 different pages. I don't think this is a shows the behavior of a single purpose account.

He is now telling that I would have threatened him but is unable to provide any evidence for this allegation. Unfortunately this is a recurring behavior with this contributor. Once he cannot enforce his POV in the articles he tries by any other mean to get his contradictors out of his way. During the last months/weeks he has started

• started a sockpuppet investigation against Francis Le français
• started a request for mediation on Popular_Republican_Union_(2007)
• looked for https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Aya_Laglare&diff=prev&oldid=678241295 support for other procedures against Francis Le français
• started an [edit warring procedure on the administrators noticeboard about Popular_Republican_Union_(2007)]]
• started an other procedure on the administrators noticeboard against Francis Le français
• and, last but not least, started yesterday this new procedure with unsubstantiated allegations.

I might have forgotten or not noticed other procedures started by this user but for those who got the misfortune to cross him on the French WP it is very obvious that he is using the same kind of tricks he used end of 2011 early 2012 where he was making much noise in order to try to impose his POV about Asselineau (this must be a mere coincidence). I have the feeling that the only purpose of this new procedure is to avoid to answer to the question we have raised, i.e. his blatant conflict of interest on the pages François Asselineau and Popular_Republican_Union_(2007). --Lebob (talk) 10:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

In addition to my previous message I also noticed that when writing "Lebob (talk) saying my I get approval from UPR party to participate in Wikipedia", D0kkaebi is misquoting what I have really written, which is also not acceptable. I have in fact written that D0kkaebi has a POV that makes him disagree with any comment about the PRU or Asselineau that would not have been duly approved by the RPU of fall within the official position of the PRU, which means that he fully endorses the view of the party where he has official responsibilities and tries to impose them on the articles relating to the party and his chairman. Again there is no wonder here as he has a strong conflict of interest and should refrain himself from contributing to the articles François Asselineau and PRU. I have however never written, as he wrongly (as I assume good faith here I will not write "falsely") alleges that he got approval from UPR to participate in WP. --Lebob (talk) 10:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Says a freshly created WP:SPA obviously from UPR as well… I guess it is with good reason that UPR activists are well known in France for their entryism strategies. Schlum (talk) 13:28, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, reading your last comments, looks like your barrel is empty. Lebob, it is true that you did not threat of outing me like the 2 others, you did personal attacks. If you have missed the evidence that I brought, you just need to scroll-up to the beginning of this topic. Then you try to qualify me as a harasser of Francis le Francais. Well, you might have missed those I guess:

1. [edit war on page with some IPs], I invite them to discuss but my request is ignored that leaded to [page protection by admin against IP contributors].
2. [After forcing them to explain their motive on the talk page, except first topic, all discussions are to explain to the other party the reasons the changes are not proper]. Sometimes, their request were justified and I integrated the change in the article.
3. [Discussions went on my talk page from this topic and all following]
4. Due to their persistence, I filled a request for 3rd party opinion. But it was declined.
5. [At the same time, I had a strong doubt on socketpuppet usage], since several IPs and Francis le Francais had same complains, and same style of contribution half in French, half in Frenglish which was concluded with an advice on behavioral monitoring
6. [RFC opened] but the other party refuse the comments brought by experienced user "focusandlearn"
7. [RFM, but refused] due to lack of French understanding of the board
8. [DRN opened but refused] because the proper place to solve the issue should be admin board according to Jaaron95

Then all my warnings to Francis le Francais:

1. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (You need to read accurately the sources and not interpret as you want WP:POV. You need to respect the consensus before changing things as you feel like)
2. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (Change upon RFC result, thank you to respect consensus)
3. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (If no consensus then it should return to the state before the claim happens and until decision is taken)
4. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (Since there is dispute, until resolution is done, basic principle is to stick to version before the claims. Edit war is useless and time consuming)
5. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (You have been warned by another user, Aya, one more, on your non-collaborative behavior)
6. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (Undid revision 678312643 by Francis Le français (talk) last warning)
7. D0kkaebi (discussion | contributions) (Reporting to Edit war page and admin noticeboard)
8. Still he reverted again after Francis Le français (discussion | contributions) (Undid revision 679332880 by D0kkaebi (talk) war edit by you)

And then you are again accusing me to get approval of UPR for any changes I provide to the article. Do you have any evidence for that? None, right, that's a personal attack. I have here just some example of revert I made against "suspected UPR militants" who try to update the number of membership:

1. (UPR website can't be a reliable source)
2. (Please use independent sources)
3. (Please provide valid source)
4. (Unknown personae and unsourced information)
5. (Please find a reliable source for this info)
6. {Please find a reliable source for this info)
7. (Removed the facebook source (!?))
8. (Reverted source not independent of subject not allowed) and more ...
   

I guess everything is now on the table, admins can judge the outing threat and personal attacks. D0kkaebi (talk) 00:12, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

And still no comment about your blatant conflict of interest, dear? As a matter of fact raising the CoI question is not a personal attack as you wrongly allege. Beside, you are repeating the false accusation that I would be you "to get approval of UPR for any changes I provide to the article", which is not what I have said. The first time I could think this was a reading mistake, this time it is clear that you dishonestly put under my keyboard things I did not write. I have said that what you do on the concerned articles is to make sure that their content matches which the official position of the PRU and that critical comment about the party or its chairman are not quoted in the corresponding articles. Finally I have never written that you were harassing Francis Le français, you came to that conclusion alone. I wonder why... --Lebob (talk) 06:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

D0kkaebi why do not you express yourself on a conflict of interest? Why you write the wrong things (eg ip opened subjects talk page which you do not answer or very late - historic demonstrate that - % 29 # 2970 _-_ 5000 _-_ 7000 opened February 1, 2015 by an IP, you answer that on May 29, four months after !)? Why you mix editorial disagreements with this procedure ? Why not say that some informations (aka your old username or mail of the upr's officials) are public and accessible to all on the internet ?--Francis Le français (talk) 08:32, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment from an uninvolved user:

I've been reading up on this saga; it's quite a tale, years in the making, with some fascinating subplots: an article subject who partially derives Wikipedia notability from making a stink about not being notable enough for Wikipedia; a spamming campaign met with an equally rabid "cross-wiki anti-spam spamming" campaign (a lovely expression I borrowed from the German AFD); frwiki AFD's that include pie charts and trend-line graphs of !votes; small armies of the same cast of canvassed and/or coi editors throwing bombs at each other through Google Translate and various degrees of linguistic ability on a number of wikis; endless charges and counter-charges; 4 AFDs, a DRV, RFC, ANI, COIN and who knows what else in enwiki alone... the only thing missing for me is an AFD in Catalan, that really would have made my day (although it was speedy-deleted twice from cawiki so I'm not too disappointed, gotta show cawiki a little love...). It would take weeks if not months to unravel it all. In the interest of sparing us a massive migraine, I suggest everyone drop the stick and go back to their home wikis where they can safely attack each other in the relative comfort of their native language. (Not that I think there is any realistic chance of that happening, heck it's only been going on for five years, and the article still exists in Occitan, quick send it to AFD!). Vrac (talk) 05:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Rather a good summary of this ridiculous and overlong saga ;-). "Dropping the stick" would be the reasonable way out, starting with closing the current request, which was rather a big stick to raise, unlikely to bring Wikipedian love to the subject. But this wouldn't solve the main practical issue, namely the acute conflict of interest at the basis of the recurring edit wars on the two English articles. --Azurfrog (talk) 12:02, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Dropping the stick(s) would necessarily require the participation of both parties in order to be successful as both are exporting disruption across the Wikiverse. Threatening to out someone is a big stick as well. I find it unlikely that getting one user blocked or restricted for COI will solve the problem given the number of pawns in this game. I don't see you or your companions acknowledging the dodgy aspects of your own behavior, behavior which strikes me as decidedly unhealthy. Another brilliant term from the German AFD is "Wiki Jagdfieber" (what we might call a WP:WITCHHUNT). My suggestion is that you all find a way to come to an understanding at home, in a place where you can best comprehend each other, rather than trying to make enwiki or some other wiki decide it for you, or continuing the dispute endlessly to the detriment of the Wikiverse. Of course that would require a healthy dose of WP:COOL. Vrac (talk) 20:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

My my! "Dodgy and unhealthy", nothing less :-)...
I'll leave it at that, just regretting that en:WP has de facto accepted to be used as some sort of fallback soapbox, in spite of such an obvious case of COI. --Azurfrog (talk) 13:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I should clarify that I am not opposed to looking at COI in this case, what I am trying to do is suggest that some attention be paid to the war and its collateral damage instead of just concentrating on this specific battle. Vrac (talk) 16:25, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello Vrac (talk), thank you for your comment. I think all the discussions have shown that English native users who had to take a look at this saga are a bit amazed by the level of stupidity this whole had reached so far. My hope would be that someone like Ravenswing or you (or anybody else, not French native) would be the one to edit the article and that French natives (including me and the crew of French Admins and related) would be de-facto banished from editing. We could provide the new sources via the talk page. So that we could contain any conflict of interest. I am not sure if that reflect what you mean by dropping the stick.
By the way, I think someone can judge the case since everything was said, even one of the party accused, seeing that his logic of attack did not help at all for his defense, is admitting "his errance" and even though a very experienced user, he did not know the process of COI (needs violin with this sentence). D0kkaebi (talk) 01:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok that is a good place to start. Yes, that is more or less what I meant by "dropping the stick". It actually has a translation in frwiki: fr:WP:CHEVALMORT which is true to the English version but we also use it as a general euphemism for stopping fighting, like "bury the hatchet" (an expression which has a very close cousin in French). I don't want to sound patronizing, but, to be specific, I mean not making strong accusations (even if you think you are right), not threatening, and not pointing out the mistakes and foibles of others in an aggressive manner, etc.... doing so naturally has a tendency to start the war all over again; basically following WP:AGF, WP:CONSENSUS and the whole alphabet soup of guidelines. If everyone was limited to the talk page, could you agree to that? Vrac (talk) 02:53, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I was sleepy and not thinking clearly when I wrote the above. Never mind. Vrac (talk) 12:15, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello, if this proposal has to translate into an indefinitely protected page against modification except for a native admin who will be in charge of completing the article with the sources brought by each party on the talk, I would agree. D0kkaebi (talk) 22:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that if you don't stop your (collective) incessant squabbling, no one is going to want to deal with it. I can see from the history that a number of editors tried but gave up. Who can blame them. Vrac (talk) 23:42, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

So the proposal above is not enough? Let me know any other suggestion. I see that Ravenswing and Aya Laglare gave up participating, but I do not feel like it is due to me. Seeing at the discussion with Ravenswing regarding his change on the political positioning, I gave my point of view explaining why I disagreed, and since he didnt buy my explanation, then I stick to his version of the article, end of story on my side. Note that is the other side who endorsed the changes of Ravenswing to me and then taxed me of POV. I don't know what I could have done better. D0kkaebi (talk) 01:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Any suggestion other than stopping the fight? You (collectively) don't seem to be getting the point of what I have been saying. Some capacity for self-examination would be helpful in this situation. Vrac (talk) 14:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

 Note: I am back and I see this is going the same way as the absence of decision on WP:AN/3RR, so let me summarize. The articles about François Asselineau and his party PRU are subject to PRU's activism on all Wikipedias (at one time the article about Asselineau existed in 102 Wikipedias), keeping them neutral needs more time than these little-known party and party leader are worth (this was one of the main points in the French AfD). Now

• D0kkaebi's accusations of "outing" when showing his COI, made here and at WP:COI/N, are probably groundless, else admins would already have removed the corresponding descriptions and links, but anyway if the limits of "outing" have been reached when saying he is a local party leader and using Google links that may lead to his legal name (interviews and social network accounts which he of course willingly published), then the solution is easy: remove and oversight these words (including mine now) and send them to functionaries-enlists.wikimedia.org, which would not mean any change in the reasons for the COI.
• If admins are willing to go deeper to the root of the problem, after determining D0kkaebi's COI will have clarified things about his predominant role on the corresponding talk pages, now keeping the two articles neutral against the predictable arrival of new PRU activists will suppose keeping constant watch that new accounts or endless digressions on the talk pages do not impede the neutralising/trimming work made by native English speakers in good standing, like recently Drmies (talk · contribs) and Aya Laglare (talk · contribs). Oliv0 (talk) 09:39, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra opposed to terrorism

Sandra opposed to terrorism has been making a lot of unnecessary and controversial edits on the 2015 Thalys train attack article, which have been reverted by me, Pincrete, Mezigue, and a number of other users. However, she continues putting those edits back into the article, and she has continued to do so despite ongoing discussions about them on the talk page. She also been making overly assertive comments in support of her positions regarding the edits. In addition, she needlessly criticized the quality of the article even though it's obvious she's the only one who has a real problem with what is being accepted as content. This is getting to the point of ridiculousness now and I think this problem needs to be addressed. Versus001 (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• [included user name Drmies (talk) 23:38, 10 September 2015 (UTC)]

• You're going to have to be more specific. Which edits? I looked at a dozen, and while I can find fault with some of them, maybe, I don't see the problem. Drmies (talk) 23:40, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

The edits regarding the inclusion of Chris Norman being born in Uganda and the flags in the reaction sections, to name off the top of my head. Versus001 (talk) 00:10, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Please provide diffs. That will be the easiest way to get results. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

There were so many incidents, and I've lost track of the history. Sorry. Check the article's talk page; there are a number of discussions relating to these conflicts. Versus001 (talk) 01:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. I can't go fishing for what I think you may think was against policy. Drmies (talk) 02:09, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I need to bring attention to what's happening in this article somehow. Sandra's showing no signs of giving up on these useless edits she's been making! IF you talk to Pincrete and Mezigue, they'll agree that she's been a source of trouble as of late. Versus001 (talk) 02:29, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

To me, Sandra is an inexperienced editor, with not very sound judgement, who has nonetheless succeeded in alienating most editors on the article by capricious, rather than vandalistic or PoV editing or behaviour. Individually, the edits (and edit reasons), are largely 'silly'. Sandra appears to get 'a bee in her bonnet' about an issue and invents spurious arguments to re-insert the wanted text. As an example, the majority opinion about a French actor, who happened to be on the train and who cut his hand trying to raise the alarm, but who was in no way in contact with the train attacker, was that he should be in one section of the article, where he is mentioned extensively, because of defending this argument, editors were accused of being 'anti-French', pro-American' etc.. Sandra was not winning the argument (she had none really, apart from caprice), so this message was left on French WP:Mort - Les Américains détestent M. Anglade . Ils ont retiré son nom de la liste des passagers. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, aside from the absurdity that a large number of are not US, but French or 'other' why 'Mort' ?

I could provide many other diffs, but will not do so, as I don't believe any 'ban' is called for at this stage. What would be useful is if someone could remind Sandra that if other editors object to an edit, one should engage on talk until at least the majority are persuaded, not simply leave a message on talk or in the edit reason that justifies the edit to oneself, especially as the messages and edit reasons make no sense to most of us much of the time.Pincrete (talk) 08:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I echo Pincrete's comments. The problem is that SotT's contributions to discussions don't make much more sense than her edits. I suspect this user might be a child, in which case I am not sure what the appropriate reaction is. (If they are not a child I know even less!) Mezigue (talk) 09:17, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Mezigue, individual comments would suggest to me 'young adult' or older in terms of age. Pincrete (talk) 10:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Either way, Sandra opposed to terrorism is a WP:SPA. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 13:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Not in the 'classic' sense of an editor who came here with a single PoV purpose. Pincrete (talk) 17:07, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly. :) Versus001 (talk) 21:46, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Pincrete's statement in that I don't feel that any ban or action is required at this tine. I couldn't find any edits made by Sandra opposed to terrorism on the article to justify that any action is required. All users involved should be reminded to discuss the matter on the article's talk page. On a side note, Sandra opposed to terrorism - you should not close ANI discussions where you are involved, as you (did earlier) to this discussion. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to suggest a ban. I just wanted the higher-ups to be aware of the problem and give an appropriate response. Versus001 (talk) 02:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring again!. Where on talk is the discussion that justifies this Sandra? Where is the evidence that this info has consensus as being relevant? Because at least 4 seperate editors have expressed the view that it is NOT relevant, and only you think it is (though your reasons remain a mystery to all of us). You really do seem determined to prove to everybody that your editing is simply capricious, and that you are unable or unwilling to learn. Pincrete (talk) 17:43, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I merely restored then improved on another editor's improvements. SEE Green Cardamom here [43] Your complaint is not an ANI (administrator's incident). Also supported by a third editor from Canada. [44] Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 19:03, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, unless they can verify their reasoning on why the edits should stay, we're going to continue opposing it, because so far, you're the only one actively defending your edits and you're not making a good case for yourself. Versus001 (talk) 19:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Smear?

nb Sub-section heading added retrospectively Pincrete (talk) 13:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra, the 'editor from Canada', at the time he left his post, had been an editor for had edited for the first time less than 4 minutes before, he had made no article edits and this was his 3rd, very minor 'talk' edit. Green Cardamom, has expressed no opinion on this subject either way, except that he thinks Daily Mail is RS on this (which isn't really disputed, especially as Gdn etc also say the same thing) - I don't know what GC thinks. Are those really the best justifications you have? Because, if so, I repeat what I said 'You really do seem determined to prove to everybody that your editing is simply capricious', and indifferent to the arguments of other, (mostly more experienced), editors. 'Ugandan' or 'African', is factually wrong, 'Born in Uganda' is mildly interesting, not very relevant, and I have no strong feeling either way about its inclusion. I DO have strong feelings about editors who aren't prepared to co-operate and respect others and argue their case in a rational way, and who instead edit in an 'I'll make a point now' way. It makes you look foolish. On WP, being inexperienced is no sin, neither is knowing less than others or making a few mistakes or … … BUT, not listening, IS a sin. Pincrete (talk) 21:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC) amended slightly, I was previously approximating Hickley80's inexperience, but have been challenged about the inaccuracy. Pincrete (talk) 14:52, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Pincrete is wrongly smearing another editor, saying he has been here for 4 minutes. No, he was here since November 2014 but may have had some contributions deleted due to the article being deleted. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Log/Hickley80 I have written to Hickley so he can defend himself. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 17:06, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, your link is crap. Could you relink please? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 17:12, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Link works for me. It shows the log showing the creation date of the account. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, Hickley80's contributions link is here, IF Sandra has access to proofs that I don't, then this is clearly an error on my part, not a smear. My suspicion is that Sandra is simply wrong (again) and desperately defending an untenable position. Sandra has not simply 'written to Hickley', but made PAs about me to this 'newbie'.

This is precisely the sort of foolish/careless behaviour that has alienated Sandra from almost all the editors Sandra has been dealing with. I, who came here defending Sandra, but hoping an admin would 'have a quiet word', now think that she is determined to prove herself 'beyond hope'. Pincrete (talk) 17:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Re:Nat Gertler, now this makes sense, Hickley80's account was created in November 2014, but the only edits so far were made on 11th September this year. I hardly think that changes my comments about Hickley80's inexperience by one iota. He had registered as an editor 10 months before, but actually edited for the first time 3 minutes before! ... or what??

Now what exactly does Hickley80 have to do with Sandra editing capriciously against consensus? Because it looks like a rather inept attempt at deflection. Pincrete (talk) 18:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra, what're you getting at? I just searched everywhere for the smearing you claim Pincrete gave this guy, and I have found absolutely ZIP. Could you provide the diffs, please? Otherwise, I will have to agree with Pincrete that you're trying to deflect the argument/make your detractors look bad. In addition, if you think Pincrete was indeed smearing this guy, couldn't you have started a completely separate discussion on here, or at the very least urged him to do so? Because this is EXTREMELY off-topic; we're talking about YOU and YOUR EDITS, not what Pincrete said to another user. Versus001 (talk) 02:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Versus001, clarification, I haven't said anything pertinent to Hickley80, I described Hickley80 above as an editor for 3/4 minutes (based on the edit history). In fact Hickley80 has been an editor for 10 months, and either never made any edits till 11 Sept., or all the edits have been deleted from the record. Either way, I don't believe I slandered Hickley80 by pointing to his/her inexperience. Pincrete (talk) 09:10, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I was merely saying that she needs to provide concrete proof that you were indeed smearing Hickley80, and that if she has it, she needs to begin a completely separate discussion. I do agree with you that this is anything but helpful to the discussion. Versus001 (talk) 19:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra Can I ask you please to delete this post on Hickley80's user page?, for his/her sake as much as mine. This person has hardly ever edited and doesn't need to get sucked into an ANI before they have started. I hope it is clear that YES, Hickley80 has been registered for 9 months, NO, as far as we know Hickley80 had not actually edited before a few days ago. Therefore there was no 'slander' or 'smear' on my part. Pincrete (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

ONCE AGAIN has Sandra disregarded the current discussion on the talk page and made a few edits suiting to her own needs. On her first edit, she has also stated "as discussed in talk page, moving chronological events so they are together", but the aforementioned discussion had YET to reach any sort of consensus at the time of those edits. Versus001 (talk) 19:47, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

AND it's not the first time with this edit, but she did send me a cookie, which I guess makes everything OK. Pincrete (talk) 22:57, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

AND AGAIN !, virtually the same edit, already covered later in the article, despite clear opposition on talk to presenting the info here, or in this way. Pincrete (talk) 09:45, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

AND AGAIN !, virtually the same edit, same objections, meanwhile we have WP:Canvassing over on an unconnected article. Pincrete (talk) 19:44, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

forum shopping

I brought this to DRN (dispute resolution noticeboard) and some of these complaining editors declined to participate. Them bringing an issue here is, therefore, forum shopping. Editors who forum shop should be blocked.

I explain my edits. I do not edit war but look for better references and give in to some ideas when a convincing reason is given. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 23:52, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I was unaware that such a discussion had been opened there at the time. In fact, I am sure I was blocked from editing during that time. Also, if you wish not to edit-war, then I urge you to stop what you are doing and discuss it with everyone else first on the talk page, so we can reach a consensus and THEN the edit can be accepted. Versus001 (talk) 01:58, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra ott, I alone declined to take part in the DRN, not 'some editors', and gave clear reasons, which I and others have explained. Briefly, they were that DRN should not be used till extensive 'talk' had failed to reach a solution. DRN is simply mediated discussion and it is slow. I have not brought this here, but even here you seem indifferent to the fact that 5 or 6 editors have exhausted their patience at times, because many of your edits seem simply capricious, though you are happy to re-insert them even when you know that they go against the broad consensus. You closed this ANI, because YOU decided it was 'forum shopping' (which it isn't). Even while here, you re-inserted 'born in Uganda' in the article (at last you understand the difference with 'Ugandan') giving a spurious reason (Daily Mail is NOT a better source thsn Gdn), the reason other editors don't want it is not because of the quality of the source, but because they think it is irrelevant (I don't care either way, but object to the behaviour). Your 'reason' for including this? Because 'African lives matter', that would be silly if he WERE African, but he isn't. Pincrete (talk) 09:29, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Reasons to close this discussion

1. Forum shopping by the original posters of the ANI complaint. It was in DRN and can be reactivated simply by Pincrete giving the OK.

2. It is a content dispute. Luckily it is not acid yet. There is multiple disagreements by multiple authors. GreenCardamom just sided with me as well as several other editors on at least some points. One issue is very basic. When writing a bio of a few sentences, their country of birth is important. One passenger who fought off the terrorists on the train was born in Uganda (Africa). Try deleting President Barack Obama's birth country and you WILL have a huge fight, from good Wikipedia writers, to Kenyan birthers, to occasional Wikipedia students, etc.

3. We can agree in time. The content disputes are minor compared to the issues that other Wikipedia articles face. These include the use of flags, listing the country of birth, short bios, national reactions, etc.

Let's have fun and write for Wikipedia and not create an acid environment. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 16:05, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra, good advice is when you are in a hole - the first thing to do is stop digging. Good advice when you at ANI, is to show the slightest understanding of WHY, criticisms are being made.

The DRN cannot be reactivated by me, not simply for procedural reasons, but because the issue has been (fairly) amicably resolved on talk, what would we be disputing? Besides I'm not Versus who started this, if he and I and others agree about some things, that doesn't mean we are 'acting as one'.

You don't seem able to understand what 'forum shopping' is, if Versus didn't get the result he wanted here, and went to another noticeboard arguing much the same thing, THAT would be forum shopping, but Versus didn't initiate the DRN, nor is he using this ANI to solve a content dispute. If you REALLY want to start a new DRN about whether 'born in Uganda' should be included, no one can stop you, but why not wait to see what the arguments on talk are?

As far as I know, Obama was born in the US (unless his detractors have been right all along!), his Kenyan father/ siblings/ aunts/ visits, would NOT be mentioned where they were not relevant … … just as spending part of his childhood in Indonesia wouldn't suddenly make Obama Asian. Pincrete (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Try removing President Obama's birth city from his article and there will be a huge fight against you. In the content dispute, some editors (not just me) have put back that one passenger patriot was born in Uganda. The article mentions where others were born, too, like USA or France. You are picking on me because you have already chased away others who made contributions to the article. Please don't keep doing this. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 22:09, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra, Obama's personal article is about Obama. An article about something else Obama was involved with wouldn't mention his place of birth unless relevant to that subject. No one has defended the inclusion on 'talk', not even you except for reasons that make absolutely no sense. I don't care much either way but do/did object to it being represented falsely (Ugandan) and do object to edit-warring based on spurious analogies and foolish arguments. I don't know what the word 'patriot' refers to here. The article mentions where ONE person was born, for good reasons explained many times, which you don't seem able or willing to understand. Pincrete (talk) 08:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra, what in the world does OBAMA have to do with the attack article? His scope of relevance doesn't extend beyond him calling those three Americans for a pat on the back. Versus001 (talk) 19:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra I also believe you have been a unintentionally disruptive editor. I think you mean well, but are continually making changes that are questionable. For example right after we had a article rename closure, you started a new discussion about renaming the article to something totally different (not previously discussed). I personally reverted every edit you made in a 60 minute period (it was like around 4 or 5) as they were so unnecessary. Many editors have expressed frustration with your editing. I would suggest limit the number of edits you make each day and take time to think about them beforehand. -- GreenC 21:33, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I'm going to ask again but is it possible for someone to actually provide diffs and summarize the issues here? We'll all volunteers here but if you won't spend the time to organize a simple summary it will likely be ignored. Disputes about general competence require a lot of evidence generally. It looks like the dispute is about 2015 Thalys train attack so would protection be a better solution? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Ricky81682, to summarise, Sandra opposed to terrorism, is editing against consensus over about 3 weeks. At least 4 editors here, User:Green Cardamom, User:Versus001, User:Mezigue, (and to a lesser extent User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi & User:Mathglot), and myself have repeatedly had to revert edits which just seem capricious or foolish. The only pattern/PoV to them is an apparent determination to place an actor-witness at centre stage of the article. I have put a sub-heading above "Smear" where the most recent diffs are listed (from 'ONCE AGAIN'), some of these edits happened after User:Drmies expressed agreement with the majority view on talk and later Drmies cautioned Sandra. We all came here prepared to have an admin advise Sandra, however, since being at the ANI, her apparent determination to act against consensus and to not meaningfully engage on talk has increased. There are also PA issues above in 'Smear' above and elsewhere, and minor BLP issues, but they are more 'silly' than anything. I'm afraid this has become an WP:IDHT, and WP:CIR situation because of Sandra's inability or unwillingness to meaningfully engage. Pincrete (talk) 10:32, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi, @Pincrete: I'm as frustrated (1, 2(fr), et al.) with Sandra's edits as anyone, but you have to understand what Ricky81682 and others are saying about respecting process and providing diffs. Now I'm not an administrator, and I don't speak for them, but as frustrating as the situation is over at Thalys, you can't expect admins or other third parties to follow vague comments about an article they're not familiar with, without following process to the letter, and a large part of that is specific claims, backed up with diffs as evidence--lots of them. Most of the words expended here have been a lot of venting on both sides, and almost nothing the administrators can really help with. As this has become rather lengthy with almost nothing actionable here, I think you really need to step back and either close it and reopen another one, or ask the admins to hold this one open for a bit, while you take a breather to marshal your forces, read up on ANI process, and gather your evidence.

In the meantime, I'm not so familiar with ANI myself, though I've looked at a few of them, and I remember seeing some very well organized ones as far as process is concerned (though no less contentious, and sometimes a lot more so) so I'd like to ask @Ricky81682: if you would be so kind as to link a couple of "sample" ANIs (either open or closed) that you think are fairly good examples of process, wrt clearly stated arguments, proper use of bulleting, claims, evidence, and diffs, and so on, and link them here. Not looking for perfection--the nature of this beast is that they are messy, but something that might provide editors here a guide to process so they can better present something the admins can address, which is what we don't have, now. This might help all concerned. Cordially, Mathglot (talk) 11:40, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Mathglot, my prev. message was written in a hurry, and quite a few diffs are given above, though the ones that concern me the most are those SINCE the ANI opened, since these show not simply inexperience, but a perverse dis-regard for consensus. The problem is that no single edit constitutes vandalism, rather a pattern of 'WP:IDHT, and so I'll just do what I want', regardless of what others think. I'd still be happy with some sort of admin oversight rather than 'punishment'.

I didn't open this ANI, so it would be inappropriate for me to close it. Though I have no objection to someone else closing it, perhaps with a reminder to those concerned, that when an edit is challenged, consensus needs to be established on talk BEFORE re-inserting virtually the same text, not simply by leaving a message on talk 'justifying' one's latest re-insertion to oneself. Pincrete (talk) 13:00, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Not true. People other than the opener of the thread can close it. However, I agree that this thread should be closed. Unfortunately, I believe a few editors here are opposed to my edits because they want to attack me. Many of my ideas are very sound. One idea is to include things chronologically (some editors seem to dislike the French actor, Anglade, and want to exclude his account of the train crew running away). That's just one of many examples. Closing this ANI is the right choice. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 17:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra, the reason editors want to move Anglade's account of the crew running away down the page, (not exclude it), is because he himself has withdrawn the accusation and partly apologised for making it. Knowing this, your representing his account as FACT, is grossly irresponsible and borderline libellous. Not even the (out-of-date) sources you cite, state it as fact. Pincrete (talk) 14:29, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra, we are not trying to attack you. This is not personal or anything (if it was, all of your edits across the board would probably be reverted, not just the ones you're providing to the Thalys article). Your edits on that article are usually not helpful and seem to be made out of your own personal interest, you have been disregarded simultaneous discussions on the talk page when consensuses are not yet made, and your attitude has just made things worse.

As for the discussion about the diffs, at the time I made this section, there were just too much to count and I didn't want to scroll through an entire history archive to search for all the diffs. However, judging by what I've seen from the first couple of pages of the history as well as the talk page, it seems that the problems started since the beginning of the article (when I wasn't present), with Sandra's first attempts at implementing an irrelevant reference to The Wounded Man. Here is the discussion. Versus001 (talk) 03:03, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• No, what I'm saying is something like: Sandra is ignoring consensus because Sandra is conducting the same edits here[diff1][diff2][diff3] or is just being argumentative without thought as seen at discussion [here]. Provide the edits showing reversions. Are you saying it's one particular issue or just a series of Sandra wants the article to look a certain way and the other editors disagree? Are the edits vandalism? Blatantly against policy? Are they bad English, incoherent? There's a discussion about the fact that the article was allegedly "split" and Sandra attempted to merge them. There's consensus against that so the next step would be something at WP:DRR if Sandra wants to try that. Otherwise, there's issue regarding the insertion of a particular paragraph I see. Same thing: again, is this being discussed at RSN (I don't see it). Again, try to help me out here more than "here's a list of people, go review all their edits and somewhere in there you'll see an issue" and simply because Sandra is a lone individual in disagreement doesn't necessarily mean there's a conduct dispute here. It's not normally this difficult to discern where the problem lies. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 20:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Ricky81682, copying from above, and ignoring all behaviour PRIOR to the last few days we have 1) ONCE AGAIN has Sandra disregarded the current discussion on the talk (left by Versus001) In all the cases, 'next', will show one of four editors reverting the edits, as they are against consensus and at times borderline libellous.

2) AND AGAIN !, virtually the same edit, on a topic already covered later in the article, … … 3)AND AGAIN !, virtually the same edit, same objections, … … 5) meanwhile we have WP:Canvassing over on an unconnected article and yet another article. Talk page shows there is widespread opposition to these edits, and no rationale for including these edits, nor in 'Ugandan' nor in an edit war over the spelling of 'spelt/spelled', (which I was not part of). Pincrete (talk) 22:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC) … … 6) the same edit … reinserted again since my post (note source says 'claim' the edit states 'fact'). Pincrete (talk) 23:56, 16 September 2015 (UTC) ... 7) and AGAIN, a shorter version of the same text, (based on withdrawn claims in out-of-date sources, yet presented as fact).Pincrete (talk) 15:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

The obvious problem is a content dispute and many the participants are behaving substandardly. Best to protect the article for a time; and advise no changes additions/deletions unless consensus for them. This has devolved to absurdity, with edits like this [45], where one editor reversed the addition of the year in the lede, with an edit summary that it is in dispute. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Carlossuarez46, the editor was not reverting the year, if you scroll down, he was reverting the disputed section, which is highly contested as to whether it is fact, and which is already covered, in context, further down the article. Removing the year was the accidental by-product of his revert, and his edit reason was correct. The accusation presented as fact IS disputed, has mainly been withdrawn by the accuser, besides being already covered in a neutral fashion later.

Also, I cannot see how 6-7 experienced editors broadly agreeing on content, with one repeatedly ignoring that consensus, can be described as a 'content dispute', rather than behaviour. To the extent that it is, it is up to that editor to establish (RfC or wherever) that they HAVE a legitimate case. Do you see any sign on talk or here at this ANI of them doing so? Pincrete (talk) 00:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• The year was ALSO reverted under the same explanation: a clear error. Indicating to me that edits are being made without due care and reflection because the editors involved are too quick to "undo" first and examine what they've done later. Page protection will solve that and enable the discussions about consensus to take place on the talk page. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 00:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes the year was ALSO removed, and I try myself to be careful in such matters, however, the removal of the year (not essential in the same year as the event), is 'small fry' compared to removing the substantial, discredited, text. When one has had to revert the same edit/or umpteen times, explained why fully umpteen times, received no (intelligable) response umpteen times, I think making the small mistake of not noticing the year going is forgivable. Other editors are also human and eventually exasperated. Most editors here are, and have been very cautious, careful and responsible. Pincrete (talk) 01:11, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, Carlossuarez46, Pincrete, the removal of the year was intentional on my part. I thought it was unnecessary at the time, so I removed it along with the discredited text. My apologies, I probably should've been clear in the edit summary. Versus001 (talk) 03:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Versus001, apologies for misrepresenting the 'year' removal. I don't know myself whether its presence was necessary/normal. My main point remains, that your 'error' - if such it was - is trivial compared to repeated, disruptive, edit warring with no comprehensible logic to it and no defence offered either on talk or at this ANI, and that therefore making all editors responsible for the problem is unjustified. Pincrete (talk) 10:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• I wasn't weighing whose editing and edit summaries were worse than who else's; I was merely pointing out that there is more emotion here than necessary. I am also not inclined to accept the invitation to move any discussion to my talk page, as has been offered. This is the right forum. As for why I haven't page protected the article myself, as asked on my talk page, the suggestion doesn't seem to have any traction. IMHO, perhaps the community is more inclined to allow you guys to waste your time edit warring than to read all this mess to figure out how or whether to stop you all, but who knows. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 17:09, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, with Sandra's attitude towards all of her edits being removed and her "reasoning" for her edits, I wouldn't be surprised if it's rubbing off on the rest of us. I for one have gotten pretty frustrated with Sandra when I have been trying my best to be neutral about this. But this seriously can't just be resolved like this. If left without a proper response, I can see this whole situation escalating into a bigger cavalcade of edit-wars than what is going on right now. Versus001 (talk) 18:53, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I added that Stone was awarded the Purple Heart medal and it was removed. This is an important fact and not a content dispute (anymore that it would not be a content dispute if editors were debating whether the George Washington article should mention that he was President of the United States). A content dispute is whether to include flags or not by the list of countries. It is lunacy when a debate on whether to remove the fact that the Purple Heart medal is being awarded. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 20:12, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

The information was removed on the basis that it was not cited. It is always important to cite information once you put it in, otherwise it will be assumed to be useless information (probably even original research) and removed. Fortunately, you did cite the information again on the second try (albeit in a bare URL that I had to fill in), so it should stay up this time around. (I, for one, do think the Purple Heart's pretty important to note.) Versus001 (talk) 20:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Point of information, all the awards have been/still are in the article, the only information removed is a present of a 'Chevy' by a talk show host.Pincrete (talk) 21:10, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Taunting at 3RRN

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Some admin please take a look and stop this. Thanks.--TMCk (talk) 21:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Classic WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. AlbinoFerret 02:53, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Classic WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT by whom? QuackGuru (talk) 02:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

That you ask that question says more than anything I could say. AlbinoFerret 03:06, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I asked you a direct question, yet you are unable to provide a specific response. Can you try to be specific? Thank you. QuackGuru (talk) 03:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The AN3 request mentioned is quite a mess. First of all, I see no talk page discussion on Fat embolism, nor much of one on Hypocalcaemia (CFCF did post one here). The diffs provided, as well as the history of both articles, don't show a gross violation of 3RR. However, seeing no talk page discussion on either article is concerning. Looking at the evidence, I believe that there was, but I do not believe that any action is required at this time so long as a discussion is started on each talk page before any more reverts are made to either article by either user.

Looking at this AN3 from a taunting/arguing perspective: When Ozzie10aaaa was confronted about the possibility of restoring primary sources against WP:MEDRS, he avoided answering the question when asked to clarify, and even resorted to discrediting QuackGuru by mentioning his block log, when asked repeatedly to review his article reversions. QuackGuru, despite being given the same answer multiple times, continued to keep pressing, asking over and over, when it was clear that Ozzie10aaaa didn't want to interact with him or answer his questions, and instead wanted an uninvolved administrator to review the AN3 discussion. QuackGuru - I think it's time to step away from that discussion and discuss your concerns on the article's talk page. Your consistent poking at Ozzie10aaaa in that discussion is obviously not going to get you the answer you're looking for. Ozzie10aaaa - Instead of resorting to the argument methods that you did, remember that it's best to focus on content. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:03, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• Reading over that "discussion," it sounds like both of them could use a good trout slap. It reads like the bickering of children: "You answer first." "No, you answer first." "Nuh-uh, I asked first." "Well, I'm not gonna answer you." "I want an answer!" Etc. Ravenswing 08:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Now thats funny, and anyone with more than one child can see the similarities.AlbinoFerret 14:11, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah. Without touching the merits of anyone's argument, they're both acting uncivilly. Ravenswing 15:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

There was also absolutely no reason for TracyMcClark to bring it here, since an admin was going to deal with it sooner or later at ANEW anyway. Not everything needs to come to AN/I. BMK (talk) 22:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps WP:AN would have been a better place. AlbinoFerret 01:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

There was a damn good reason for posting - It stopped the taunting, saved some time over there and gave those with too much time here the opportunity to waste the same. Outsourcing inside!--TMCk (talk) 16:31, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Nah, petty bickering like that is silly and childish, but it's not an AN/I matter when it takes place on another admin noticeboard. Somewhere else, maybe, it depends on the amount of disruption. BMK (talk) 19:47, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sigmund Freud

Hello, sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a sockpuppet of blocked user User:Kingshowman named User:FearlessTruthTeller recently edited Sigmund Freud, providing a rough explanation of the Oedipus complex [46]. Soon after, User:FreeKnowledgeCreator reverted his edits, only on the grounds of sockpuppetry [47]. I reverted their edits, claiming that they were beneficial to the article, only to be reverted by both FreeKnowledgeCreator and User:Jim1138 [48] [49] [50]. My question for you all is, should the edit be allowed? While it may defy WP:DENY and may be from a sockpuppet, the edit isn't vandalism, and thus I believe that the edit should be upheld. Thank you. --Chevvin (talk) 02:11, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The edit was part of a pattern of disruptive editing by User:Kingshowman and should be disallowed on those grounds alone. Kingshowman has consistently shown poor judgement about what sort of material is appropriate to the leads of articles. This really isn't ANI-worthy material. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:21, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, this is absolutely ANI-worthy. It's obvious that both of us have different views on the edit, and our attempts at working it out through talking have seemed to failed. --Chevvin (talk) 02:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Chevvin - I agree that the edit was not vandalism. But, instead of reverting, why not just edit the page and manually add that article content back yourself :-)? It'll satisfy WP:DENY (since the edit will be from you, not the sock) and the contribution will stay on the article. I really don't think that an ANI is absolutely needed here. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

If I did manually edit the page, it would be reverted by FreeKnowledgeCreator instantly, and he would have no reason not to. If he can undo my revert, what's stopping them from reverting my edit? --Chevvin (talk) 02:33, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

No Chevvin, this is a routine content disagreement that you should have first discussed at the talk page of Sigmund Freud - as I requested. The only possible reason for raising any of these issues on ANI is to get the latest Kingshowman sockpuppet blocked promptly. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

FreeKnowledgeCreator and Jim1138 - What is your basis or proof that this user is a sockpuppet? FreeKnowledgeCreator, your edit summary on this edit only says that you are "very familiar with this user". Jim1138, you also reverted an edit saying that the user is a "blocked sock" - I don't see a WP:SPI filed for this user, and FearlessTruthTeller is definitely not a "blocked sock". ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

His connection with Kingshowman was immediately apparent from the edits he made at Sigmund Freud, and with all respect, Oshwah, he effectively admitted to being a sock at the requests for article protection page, before denying he was a sock here. I provided a link to the de facto admission below. De facto admissions of socking seem to be this user's style, as witness the comments by the sock account Parrhesiast at its talk page. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, FreeKnowledgeCreator. I just now read the discussion below. To address the root of the ANI discussion: Chevvin - just edit the page and add the content manually (so long as the content itself is not disputed). If there's proof of socking, then it should go into a SPI case to be investigated. In normal circumstances, reverting edits made by accounts evading blocks or bans, or edits made in violation of such bans do not count against 3RR. However, there's no WP:SPI; the account has not yet been appropriately determined to be a sock. I think we just need to choose our battles here and evaluate priorities. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Oshwah, I understand that you are trying to be even-handed, but the evidence that the account is Kingshowman is overwhelming at this stage. Why do you think a not-yet-blocked account would talk about the reason it got blocked, referring to a past dispute in doing so? Not blocking the user right away is only delaying the inevitable. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi, FreeKnowledgeCreator - I think my timing got mixed up in edit conflicts earlier, so I'll explain here. You are 100% correct; I didn't see your edit diff below until after my previous response. Self admission is pretty much a slam dunk as far as proof goes. I wanted to make sure that the root of this ANI was discussed, in that manually adding the material back to the Sigmund Freud article would satisfy WP:DENY and avoid an edit war. Since there was proof of socking, the reverts were legitimate. I apologize if I created any confusion. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:23, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Can we get an admin notice going on FreeKnowledgeCreator, for attempting to act as the dictator of the Sigmund Freud, Martin Heidegger, and Friedrich Nietzsche pages? This guy pursues personal grudges above encyclopedic content! The user in question, whom I have no relation to, was only banned for making fun of FreeKnowledgeCreator, playfully. All of his edits were constructive, as you may also have found out purely by researching, as I did. Thanks for reading, friends!FearlessTruthTeller (talk) 02:40, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

See this edit by the editor above, where he effectively admits to being Kingshowman ("I am not "disruptive" or a vandal- the only reason I even got blocked is because I said you'd never read Heidegger and later you admitted I was right and you hadn't read Being and Time"). The editor's comment above shows that he can't even keep his story straight. Wikipedia needs to stop indulging him and follow the good advice at WP:RBI. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:49, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Who can even recall what those users were even blocked for, and this user has only been productive! Let us give the fearless speaking of truth a chance. These edits are plainly constructive, and therefore the true vandals are they who revert them. Sometimes, serving the Truth is difficult. FreeKnowledgeCreator must someday Learn the hardest lesson of all: to put his love for knowledge above his petty personal animuses. I trust you will do the right thing. FearlessTruthTeller (talk) 02:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

That user is Kingshowman and needs an immediate block. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

FearlessTruthTeller blocked as a sock. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, NeilN. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

User:NeilN - Thank you for seeing through the haze of confusion that I probably contributed to above and for taking quick and appropriate action on that account. Now that this matter is taken care of, Chevvin - do you still have any questions or concerns regarding the initial reason that you opened this discussion? Or can we go ahead and close this? ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Not any more. As long as FKC doesn't revert the edit, which we've generally agreed upon to be constructive, I think that we can leave this topic to rest. --Chevvin (talk) 03:42, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• Wait up. We're not closing anything until FreeKnowledgeCreator comes clean: did you, FKC, or did you not read Sein und Zeit? And if you didn't, what makes you think you're good enough to even make routine edits to Meghan Traynor articles here? We have standards, you know, and as true Heideggerians Bishonen, Favonian, and I can make your life a living hell. So get to reading--and not in translation, lazybones. Dzjerman only! Drmies (talk) 03:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
  • I assume your comment is meant to be humorous, Drmies. Personally I find it an ill-judged attempt at humor. Kingshowman accused me of being an ignoramus who has not read either Heidegger or Freud. I have no interest in hiding what I do or don't know. I admitted on the Heidegger talk page that the only Heidegger I have read is Introduction to Metaphysics (in contrast, I count myself reasonably familiar with Freud). Other admins can let me know whether there are any serious issues here. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:43, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The content may be restored by any editor in good standing editing in good faith. Once that happens, 3RR exemptions no longer apply. However if the material itself is under dispute or adds little to the article then the talk page should be used first. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:36, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The material definitely is under dispute; I don't consider it a good addition. Chevvin needs to discuss the matter on the talk page of the Freud article, as I originally requested. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:50, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

NB, Kingshowman is still at it, now editing as User:EminentScholar. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

• @FreeKnowledgeCreator: you cannot just claim WP:DENY in an edit war and expect to be immune from WP:EW if you fail to pursue your claims in the proper forum (SPI). That is just not how it works. Even if you feel the evidence is overwhelming, even if you feel you're unequivocally right, you either handle the accusation appropriately or refrain from making it. Not doing this and choosing to "DENY-revert" the edits instead still disrupts the project and creates unnecessary drama for everyone (as evidenced by this very thread). Furthermore, if a different editor re-adds the content, you cannot legitimately remove it per DENY. If DENY is the only reason you're citing for reverting a third editor who has stepped in, the action is tantamount to an unexplained revert since your rationale is inapplicable. Please keep this in mind should the situation arise again. Swarm ♠ 05:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The first edit by brand new editor EminentScholar was to restore an edit made by a Kingshowman sock. Respectfully, how likely do you think it is that the account is not another Kingshowman sock? In the (unlikely) event its not a Kingshowman sock, it would be a meatpuppet. It's quite common to point out obvious socks at ANI, so why the anger? You might also have noticed that this thread was not started by me, but by another editor, so why would you accuse me of creating unnecessary drama? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 05:40, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The issue has nothing to do with whether or not you're right about sockpuppets or meatpuppets. The complaint was that you also reverted editors who *weren't*. And again, if you think there's obviously sock or meat puppetry going on, just start an SPI. Swarm ♠ 06:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

If it's an obvious WP:DUCK case, you can also bring it here or grab an active admin. SPI can become backlogged. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I had assumed that Swarm's comment was a response to my posting about EminentScholar; I see now that it wasn't (I misunderstood, but Swarm's comment was very confusing). My reverting Chevvin at Sigmund Freud was an example of the routine disagreements between editors that occur all the time, and I did not invoke WP:DENY as a reason for it. I'm currently trying to discuss the matter at the article's talk page. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 06:25, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

This looks more or less resolved to me, anyway. John Carter (talk) 14:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I think this matter is resolved as well. ~Oshwah~ ^{(talk) (contribs)} 16:29, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment: Swarm, they were WP:Socks, and I would have repeatedly reverted them as obvious WP:Socks as well. And as for Chevvin, I wouldn't be so quick to state that he is not a WP:Sock. But since you have no evidence that he is one, while I do have such evidence, it's understandable that you would WP:Assume good faith as far as his editing goes, even though he edits like a non-WP:Newbie. He has the "I edited Wikia" excuse on his user page, but that doesn't come close to explaining the seasoned level of his Wikipedia editing. He's not Kingshowman, but he's not a WP:Newbie either. I'll gather more and more evidence, and eventually report that matter. That is, unless Chevvin wants to go ahead and come clean.

Thanks to NeilN for handling this matter, and all WP:Sock matters, well. John Carter handles WP:Sock matters well too. So I also thank him. Flyer22 (talk) 22:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Not sure why you're pinging me about this, but you're hitting on two separate issues. Regarding WP:DENY reverts of 'obvious' socks: if you want to edit war with socks, that's your prerogative and I couldn't care less. It doesn't change the point made in my first four sentences at all. And regarding Chevvin, the second point I made still stands too. You're claiming that Chevvin may be a sock but given the fact that you need to gather more evidence before even starting an investigation tells me that this is not an obvious case of WP:DENY. If you're going to accuse someone of sockpuppetry, put up or shut up. If you're not going to assume good faith, collect evidence and file a report in good faith, but don't sit here blowing hot air at ANI about how you have evidence that one of the users is a sock. It's still a personal attack. Suspected sockpuppetry is not remotely an excuse for the behavioral guidelines to go out the window, which is something that you and FKC obviously still need to learn. Swarm ♠ 00:59, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

To me it was obvious from the outset which accounts were Kingshowman socks. Reverting them seemed appropriate. What do you suggest I should have done instead, Swarm? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 04:44, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Swarm, I WP:Pinged you because you are acting like editors should forgo common sense. Forgoing common sense when it comes to obvious WP:Sockpuppet cases results in matters such as the Jdogno5/Michael Demiurgos disaster. WP:Assuming good faith, when editors should not have been assuming it, in that case came with the price of a year of disruption/damage, as noted by Betty Logan. Reverting WP:Socks is not WP:Edit warring; it is pretty clearly stated as an exemption at the WP:Edit warring policy. Any WP:Administrator who chastises people for accusing editors of being WP:Socks when they know those editors are WP:Socks, or blocks editors for "edit warring" with editors they know to be WP:Socks, does not deserve to be a WP:Administrator. I don't need to learn anything about how to deal with WP:Sockpuppetry cases; my track record for catching them is pretty solid, as many people at this site know. I couldn't care less if you disapprove of my style for catching them. I certainly couldn't care less for you defending them, unless that defense harms Wikipedia. But while we're on subject of people who need to learn things, you could learn a lot from NeilN. Flyer22 (talk) 06:01, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

And I always eventually "put up," by the way; it can take days, months or a year, but it happens. It took me months to finally get around to officially reporting Michael Demiurgos, but the job got done nonetheless. Flyer22 (talk) 06:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what the hell your problem is but nowhere do I defend socks or suggest they can't or shouldn't be reverted, or suggest that editors can't use common sense, nor have I chastised anyone for doing so. I'm not sure what exactly it is you're projecting onto the points I've raised, but please don't try to twist my meaning or try to discredit me via some bizarre straw man. My points are incredibly straightforward and they're not wrong. Swarm ♠ 19:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Swarm, I similarly don't know what your problem is. From what I've read in this discussion, you were indeed suggesting that editors forgo common sense, and acting like we shouldn't revert WP:Socks on the spot or call them WP:Socks when they are without a WP:Sockpuppet investigation taking place. You stated, "FreeKnowledgeCreator you cannot just claim WP:DENY in an edit war and expect to be immune from WP:EW if you fail to pursue your claims in the proper forum (SPI). That is just not how it works. Even if you feel the evidence is overwhelming, even if you feel you're unequivocally right, you either handle the accusation appropriately or refrain from making it." That, and your stating that FreeKnowledgeCreator was being disruptive, is incorrect on so many levels, and shows that you don't deal with these types of editors (WP:Socks) as much as NeilN and I do. NeilN, for example, will claim WP:DENY and revert a WP:Sock on the spot, more than once if necessary; he did that even before he became a WP:Administrator earlier this year. His experience with such matters gave him the sense to act swiftly and appropriately in this case. That is what we need our WP:Administrators to be doing in WP:Sock cases when the editor is so obviously a WP:Sock. WP:Socks are to be reverted on the spot when an editor familiar with the WP:Sock master knows it's a WP:Sock and feels that the edits are best left off Wikipedia, or wants to enforce the WP:Block evasion violation. The same applies to cases where the person is an obvious WP:Sock to others. The WP:Sockpuppet investigation can come afterward, if it's needed at all. Like FreeKnowledgeCreator, I also came up against an editor who simply didn't understand what should be done in cases of an obvious WP:Sock, and suggested I should be waiting for the WP:Sockpuppet investigations to conclude in such cases instead of reverting; see User talk:Vanjagenije/Archive 9#Something you said..., and what others disagreeing with that editor stated. So I don't agree that what you've stated in this thread is correct (not in its entirety). This is certainly one of those agree to disagree moments for me. Flyer22 (talk) 22:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I get the impression here that there is a disagreement regarding the definition of an "obvious" sock, and how to handle such. I also get the impression that what might be obvious to one person might not be obvious to another. It is also, of course, possible for something which is "obviously" true to, occasionally, be factually wrong. But it seems to me that there is a bit of leeway built into the system on this matter, at least until such time as the phrasing is changed. John Carter (talk) 22:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, John. This discussion and the one I had at Vanjagenije's talk page show that. What is an obvious WP:Sock is also different for me because of my significant experience recognizing them. For example, in the recent BigSportsUnion case, I knew he was a WP:Sock, but I played it cool by pointing to reasons why I know he is not a WP:Newbie, and by making it clear that I would be interested in knowing what his previous account was. I didn't have to wait for long; he was indefinitely blocked soon afterward by Ponyo. I discussed obvious WP:Socks with JamesBWatson, who found my user page section about WP:Socks helpful; see User talk:Flyer22/Archive 19#A small point, but an interesting one. Also see Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Archive 56#G5, where JamesBWatson and I have the same or similar takes on dealings with WP:Socks, and where there is also disagreement. Flyer22 (talk) 22:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

As a regular editor, I practiced what I thought was common sense. Revert the obvious sock and report to the appropriate venue which may be SPI, ANI, AIV, or an admin's talk page. The sock had to be reported anyways to get blocked and the report indicated I was claiming a 3RR exemption for any future reverts. There's been the occasional suggestion here in the past that editors refrain from going over 3RR until the report has been processed. I reject that as persistent socks can cause a good deal of disruption before an admin takes notice and acts. However, you need to have clean hands (i.e., uninvolved editors can see why you thought it was an obvious sock) and be aware when you can no longer claim the exemption (e.g., another editor keeping the sock's edit or blatant BLP issues overriding socking concerns). I don't think anyone (admin or non-admin) would disagree with this practice. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 00:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• @User:Swarm I know exactly what (or who) the hell her problem is. @Flyer22 After we crossed paths yesterday, it seems that you felt the need to lash out. Here then is my response to your "my style for catching them" link that you came here to advertise. You claim that you "put up"; but you are still claiming on your user page, in the link at the start of the linked section, (as is emphasised by the duck picture), after well over a year, that I am a sockpuppet - with no evidence to support that. This proves that you are full of shit. You insinuate, in the very next sentence on your page, that I am a "returning/indefinitely blocked pedophile". This casual assertion, again concealed with absolutely minimal ambiguity that would never pass as such in any forum outside of Wikipedia, reveals that you are a completely vile and worthless human being. Please remove the section immediately (as you were obliged to do over a year ago). zzz (talk) 23:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Y'know, I'm kind of wondering whether the over-the-top personal attacks in the above comment might qualify for some sort of action on their own. John Carter (talk) 23:21, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Y'know, you'll have to try harder than that. It's clearly not a comment - it's a fair and measured observation followed by a request. Thank you. zzz (talk) 23:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

If you consider calling someone a"completely vile and worthless human being" a "fair and measured observation," may I say that there are serious questions regarding your possible competence to edit in a collaborative setting. John Carter (talk) 23:43, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Obviously you didn't read the message (or you have some very strange ideas). zzz (talk) 23:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

And you obviously don't know what you are talking about. My commenting in this thread has absolutely nothing to do with you. You stated "After we crossed paths yesterday, it seems that you felt the need to lash out." You make it seem like we had a WP:Edit war the other day, or that I focused on you. I did not. And if I "lashed out" above, so did Swarm. I have not been thinking about you, and nowhere on my current user page do I state or imply that you are a WP:Sockpuppet. I learned to stop interacting with you because of your obsession with me and your WP:Disruptive behavior. Others cited you as clearly obsessed with me and as unhinged, and you have wonderfully displayed that again by trying to start a fight with me in this thread and by making it about you, despite the fact that it's common for me to comment on WP:Sock cases here at WP:ANI and identify WP:Socks here. But good luck with your vendetta against me; you'll need it. Flyer22 (talk) 00:13, 16 September 2015 (UTC) And one more thing: Let's be clear that the only reason you keep obsessing about me or others thinking that you are a WP:Sock (yes, I certainly was not the only one to conclude that you are one) is because you feel threatened by it. Actual non-WP:Socks do not feel threatened by people thinking that they are a WP:Sock (not usually anyway); they do not go on a war path to try to prove their innocence; doth protests too much. Flyer22 (talk) 00:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, you deny it. I invite anyone to look at the section entitled "WP:Sockpuppet watch" and put their mouse over the link "some Wikipedia editors sought to have it changed" with a picture of a WP:DUCK craftily added to it. And then say with a straight face that you're not "stating or implying" that I'm a sockpuppet. That is just more lies. And it was just a stunning coincidence - of course - you suddenly turning up here and advertising the section. You've already been told, at great length, to remove the section, so I don't see what "luck" has to do with anything. zzz (talk) 00:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Changing your story then, from "I always put up". No one ever called me a sock except you, not to my face anyhow. Your arguments are weak - see Law of Holes. zzz (talk) 00:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect on all accounts. Your skills for interpreting matters are as flawed as they ever were. For example, stating that I insinuate that you are a pedophile in that section? Absurd. I removed the other section, as you very well know; nowhere am I required to remove the current section, and I won't be removing it. You are free to try to get me to do so, as you no doubt will, given your obsession with me and your doth protests too much warpath. But that won't be happening. Do stop talking to me unless absolutely necessary. Flyer22 (talk) 00:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked User:Signedzzz for one week for the above blatant personal attacks. I'm a bit amazed that no one apart from John Carter seemed to find such comments unacceptable here. If in my absence the standards have slipped somewhat and "you are a completely vile and worthless human being" is no longer considered a blockable personal attack, then feel free to unblock the editor of course. Fram (talk) 10:23, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

As noted in the #User:Signedzzz and WP:Personal attacks and WP:Harassment section below, thank you, Fram. Flyer22 (talk) 11:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the timely block. In my defense, I definitely saw the appalling personal attacks, but -- as I am not involved here -- I felt no need to comment. I have dealt with (one of) Kingshowman's socks in the past, and I welcome the efforts to wrap up the rest of this sockmaster's disruption. GAB^Hello! 19:32, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Violation of NPA, POLEMIC, POVPUSH, CPUSH of by Nishidani

WP:NPA Personal attack – "arguing on behalf of organizations with an ethnic cleansing programme" and after I continuously asked him to delete. [51] [52] [53] [54] His answer was "it is impersonal, and does not name you" which I find more insulting then the original. Who was it directed to then??? It hasn't been deleted yet!

WP:POLEMIC Quotes such as "a convenient political story to allow people from Brooklyn or Moldavia with no historic connections to the area..." or "...the assumption that a non-existent God was a real-estate tycoon dispensing favours to non-historical figures like Moses and Joseph whose fairy6 tales..." might not be personal but I find them very offensive. To say they expose extreme bias would be an understatement.

Repeating violations of WP:NEUTRAL (WP:POVPUSH)

• Morally wrong POVPUSH – [55] [56] [57] [58] The assailant is presented as the victim. How about this – Two brothers, Saïd and Chérif Kouachi were shot dead after (allegedly???) killing 11 people at Charlie Hebdo.
• Severe POVPUSH – "Regavim (רגבים) is an Israeli NGO, one that, according to its critics, is described as a 'settler-colonial NGO'.[1"] - I believe it speaks for itself. Completely off of any imaginable line.
• In editorials on Jpost two NGO members falsified Yaakov Havakook book. While the Regavim person was 'demonstrating the unreliability of Regavim', B'tselem person was found to have 'impressions of reading Havakook's book'. I can see no reason but PPOV.

Repeating violations of WP:CIVIL (WP:CPUSH) Is there a good way to give evidence for CPUSH beyond asking one to read the talk page?

• Demands other editors to quote policy for removal of material[59][60] but himself support removal removal based on lengthy explanations not based on policy.[61][62][63]
• On Susya#WP:OR again.Settleman for example I asked Nishidani help build consensus ("You are a big boy. Make a constructive suggestion") instead of removing material. Then again started a whole conversation about Regavim which was discussed on the talk page and RSN.
• Havakook's book (Hebrew), quoted by the UN, scientific publications and NGOs on both sides, was questioned again with some allegations of no oversight etc'. (This is from an editor who uses all kind of NGO material published on their site). At the end I had to translate for him an additional part of the book.
• In regards for Havakook (again in Hebrew which he doesn't read), He pushed me again and again on whether the chapter talk about Susya, which I had to answer several times. Then here he just drops in text that doesn't even mention the subject of the question (status quo on Temple Mount) and when asked about it give some lengthy explanations[64][65].
• Oppose 'pro-Settlers' info b/c it is 'generic'/'political statements' and edit-in 'anti-settlers' info b/c it 'has also been mentioned'.

I was debating whether to file this before or not but the double standards Nishidani has are just impossible to work with. He hold other editors to one strict standard, but don't hold himself nearly to the same demands, meanwhile, he just wasted my time. Then comes the NPA which he refused to delete and POLEMIC statements which really do not belong anywhere on wikipedia. Some of POVPUSH he exercise isn't just pushing a point of view but like the example above, presenting attacker as a victim is IMHO immoral.

Note - I prepared this for WP:ARBPIA3 but was told by one of the admins that it doesn't belong there but here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Settleman (talk • contribs) 16:31, 13 September, 2015 (UTC)

Sigh, if anything, a WP:BOOMERANG is in place. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you ...Settleman, who first start an article about said (hardly notable) "Yaakov Havakook" (Havakook does not have a PhD, and has never worked for any academic institution), then proceeds to push him as an "academic". This, while at the very same time "branding" David Dean Shulman (a professor at Hebrew Uni., ) as a  mere "Ta'ayush activist": here here, here, here, here and here. It is simple, really; if you support Israeli settlers on Palestinian West Bank and the expulsion of Palestinians from their land: then you are instantly hailed as a genius. If not: Booo: you are a "Ta'ayush activist" ..or worse. So predictable. Get over it, Settleman: however offended you are: it is still a fact that many (most?) people consider Israeli settlers on the West Bank as absolutely nothing better than thieves. Yes: thieves. And if people don´t want to be called thieves; that´s simple: don´t steal. (And don´t give me that history part: unless we want, say Romans to come to London, and kick Londoners out of their homes because "London was once ours!". Sorry, it doesn´t work that way.) Huldra (talk) 22:25, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Huldra, instead of so many words in a forum manner: let's be more simple and read his author page:

• "David Shulman is the Renee Lang Professor of Humanistic Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and an activist in Ta’ayush..."

already existing in a "Huldra, Nomoskedasticity & Pluto2012 reverts" topic where you are nebtioned too. :) --Igorp_lj (talk) 00:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Settleman is WP:NOTHERE. He is on wikipedia only to defend the image of Israeli settlers as proven by his edit war here or his pro-Arutz Sheva pov-pushing (here, here or here). He was warned for this. He also accuses other editors to be hypocrite at the ArbCom despite he was asked to avoid such attacks. There are sevral other exemples of WP:POINT and WP:POV pushing directly linked with this issue of pro-settlers [paid?] editing. At best, he has a deep conflict of interest. I add that I am amazed by the number of policies Settleman knows as well as the arcanes of wikipeida, this just after 6 weeks of editing. Pluto2012 (talk) 05:34, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

FYI: the answer of Nishidani to this WP:AN/I request (Added by Pluto2012 (talk) 05:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)).

I strongly endorse Huldra's suggestion to consider this a case of WP:BOOMERANG. Zero^talk 00:40, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: A time-honored tradition here is that people who report someone have their own behavior looked at too. I honestly believe that you would not come out looking good from any dispassionate comparison of your editing with Nishidani's. Zero^talk 09:11, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Is it your private opinion or as administrator's one? --Igorp_lj (talk) 14:34, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Under the rules I don't have extra authority as an administrator in areas of the encyclopedia which I actively contribute to. So my comment should be taken as the opinion of an ordinary editor with experience of both people under discussion. Zero^talk 02:21, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

To all who criticizes Settleman: do I understand right that you have no claim to Nisidani (i.e. he did not break any Rules)? --Igorp_lj (talk) 14:41, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This user obviously doesn't understand the policies and guidelines he linked to above. I also support a WP:BOOMERANG for Settleman. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: @Pluto2012: @Zero0000: @Sturmgewehr88: - This has nothing to do with Shulman or WP:BOOMERANG. Except for 1 comment on Huldra talk page, he wasn't even part of the discussion (I accepted and remove similar LABELs from Arutz 7). This has everything to do with I wrote wrote above about Nishidani's behavior towards other editors. You comment are nothing but an attempt to derail the discussion from the real issues. Settleman (talk) 05:52, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: per WP:BOOMERANG, if an editor comes to ANI with unclean hands, they can also have sanctions imposed on them; i.e. It's not "derailing the discussion", it's pointing out "the real issues". ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 10:03, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Pluto2012: I'm not pro-Arutz 7, I just think it is as reliable as Ma'an which Nishidani uses quite often. You are most defiantly anti-Arutz 7 as you falsified a source to title it Neo-Zionist (even on a good day it wasn't just OR. The source doesn't even mention A7 and neo-zionism in the same paragraph). For anyone who looked for a WP:BOOMERANG, here it is. Settleman (talk) 06:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: Huh? The interview is called "An interview with Arutz Sheva´s Yishai Fleisher", where Fleisher is introduced as their "director of programming"...and he defends "neo-Zionism"....and you claim it has nothing to do with Arutz Sheva?? Huldra (talk) 08:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: Again, you *really* needs to address this. You accuse Pluto2012 of one of the worst wiki-crimes there is (in my book): falsification of sources. But your diff does not back you up. So please explain, or withdraw your allegation against Pluto and apologise to him. Huldra (talk) 21:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: I stand by my accusation. A question in an interview with one staff member of Arutz 7 about another organization, Kumah, is completely irrelevant to A7 and thus consist of falsification of the source. Do you really argue it isn't? I removed it 3 hours before stating 'Not supported by source' and Pluto's answer 'Is there really a nuance ? That was supported by the source' which is false.

@Settleman: That is not how I read it at all. The way I read this, with that headline, was: here we get the official Arutz Sheva´s view. At most, the mistake was to say "In the media, Arutz Sheva defends the Neo-Zionist ideology by opposition to Post-Zionism," instead of specifying: "In the media, Arutz Sheva´s Yishai Fleisher defends the Neo-Zionist ideology by opposition to Post-Zionism." (Btw: your "ping" did not work: I have no idea why) Huldra (talk) 23:56, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Your proposal fails OR, SYNTH and probably more policies I don't even know about. Settleman (talk) 22:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: I honestly do not agree. But I would like to hear "outside" opinion on this, Huldra (talk) 22:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: You opposed titling Shulman as Ta'ayush activist when the book name in Hebrew is "Dark Hope: Journal of a Ta'ayush Activist" but you propose titling a whole organization b/c of the opinion of a staff member? And opposing post-Zionism does not equal neo-Zionism. By all mean, take this to WP:ORN. Settleman (talk) 22:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: If I saw an interview, in say jewishpress.com named "An interview with Ta'ayush's Shulman", I would assume that the opinions voiced were those of Ta'ayush (and presumably also Shulman), yes. But you are telling me that assuming that a jewishpress.com interview called "An interview with Arutz Sheva's Yishai Fleisher" has nothing to do with Arutz Sheva; more than that: you actually accuse Pluto2012 for falsification for making such an assumption. I think people can draw their own conclusions from this. Huldra (talk) 23:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: You might have been able to make such excuse if this was the 1st time the source was entered. We all do mistakes. But Pluto's edit was made 3 hours after I have removed the source and my edit summery says "Not supported by source". Pluto have read enough to come up with "Is there really a nuance ? That was supported by the source". Please, lets not be naive. Settleman (talk) 19:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: Again: I repeat; I find it a totally legitimate edit, even the 2nd time around. But then I share one thing both with you, and with Pluto2012: none of us, (AFAIK), have English as our "native tongue" (it is my 4th language) ...and none of us, (AFAIK), live in a English-speaking country. I would therefore like to hear what one of "the natives" (eh, native English speaker, that is) has to say about it, before I draw any final conclusion. I still think your claim of Pluto´s "falsification" is way, way over the line. Huldra (talk) 21:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I have left Settleman an A-I alert warning; discussion here made the need for that clear. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 06:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

As for tendentious editing, look carefully at this, from Settleman: he use google books for finding books which have *both* the words “taayush radical”", (see here), and then puts the result into the Ta'ayush -article. Now, that an editor, who searches the net for certain biased info, accuse other editors of being biased; what is the word for that? Ah, yes. ---- Huldra (talk) 08:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Let's not kid ourselves, stating that editors in PIA article has bias is almost like saying they are breathing air and your settlers=thieves comment above is an evidence for your own bias. I don't think this is an issue if you respect the encyclopedia and other editors. Even for Susya where I was very involved, I presented text that supported Palestinians (Albeck+int'l law) and on al-Tuwani (proof of village existance).

This complaint isn't about Nishidani's bias but conduct. So derailing the conversation to our different biases is just that, derailing. If anyone wants to give comments on my own conduct, I will be happy to get the criticism and hopefully, explain. Meanwhile, I didn't hear one comment on Nishidani's behavior. Settleman (talk) 13:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Settleman: you see, that´s the difference between us: I have never, ever searched the net for, say: Israeli+settler+thief ..and then inserted the result into Wikipedia articles. But YOU search the net for taayush+radical and then insert the result into a Wikipedia article. Huldra (talk) 21:01, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Just one comment. ‘Theft’ is how an expert on international law like (John Strawson) with Middle Eastern area competence describes the practices. That virtually all practices of dispossession in the West Bank contravene the Fourth Geneva Convention is well known. They are not acted on because of a technicality. UN Security decisions regarding the conflict are passed under Chapter VI of the UN Charter, and hence not binding, as they would be were they passed under Chapter V11, due to a 'political arrangement'. We justly do not use such language in wiki articles, because it does not look neutral and Israel disputes this. But it is not a ‘bias’ to consider the colonial enterprise in these terms: far too much of the technical literature supports that view. The Susya article, where you are so active, is an exemplary case-study of the Kafkian rules: there, the Palestinians have legal title dating back to 1881, title recognized as valid in Israeli law. The justice of that title was acknowledged by the military run 'civil administration' in 1982. It was reconfirmed by another CA expert in 2015. Notwithstanding this water-tight case, everything they have has been smashed, cemented over, stolen, with the complicity of the authorities, and they have been uprooted and trucked out and dumped on roadsides, because the settler project wants them to disappear. Law even in Israeli terms is not binding in the 'Far West' Bank, where as that idiom implies, the natives are Injuns: deemed by an aggressive colonial constituency you support to be aliens in their own land. It takes considerable serenity to handle these issues fairly, with justice, even if it really works out to balancing Israeli myths and the Palestinian realities. Wiki demands neutrality even in the description of a clash between a violent party and its victim. That does not mean that everything relevant to the conflict, if injurious to the aggressor's self-esteem, must be underplayed. The sources you are habitually pressing to have recognized as RS, Arutz Sheva and Regavim (NGO) don't recognize international law or human rights. And now, I am off to Ireland. My absence should not hinder administrators from making any judgement they feel due, against my behavior or otherwise. Nishidani (talk) 16:34, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman who writes: "Let's not kid ourselves, stating that editors in PIA article has bias is almost like saying they are breathing air (...)."

Once more, you prove you don't understand what is wikipedia.

We all have opinions outside wikipedia, and of course these opinions has consequences on the way we edit wikipedia.

But having a 'bias' is more than this. It means that our personal involvment in the topic is so strong that we cannot comply any more with NPoV.

Having opinions IRL doesn't prevent somebody to put WP:PILLARS above his own opinions because he is there to develop a project of free encyclopaedia first.

But when you edit areas in which you can be involved IRL, it is nearly impossible to put your interest above wikipedia principles.

You have been given several chances but you proved you are in the bad category:

• when you introduce material in an article in order to blame some Muslim women about their (fanatic) actions on the Temple Mount whereas you "forget" what is done on the other side (suggesting to bomb al-Aqsa)
• when you insist deeply to make A7 WP:RS despite its background
• when you add sentences defending the image of a group to which you seem to be affiliated (settlers).

It would be my decision, I would ask you to make 100 edits in introducing pro-Palestian and anti-settler material (only). But what is asked you is on any topic, to sort everything by yourself and add everything alone.

@Settleman who writes: "Meanwhile, I didn't hear one comment on Nishidani's behavior."

Nishidani is a excellent contributor who has been the target of many biased editors and as anybody who can lose temper but I don't see where he would have done it in the current case.

Pluto2012 (talk) 16:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@Pluto2012: I believe my edits are NPoV and I welcome changes as long as they aren't just removals in order to hound me. What you describe is irrelevant content dispute that nobody prevented you from fixing. I added some later.

@Nishidani: The title for the land is far from proofing the existence of the village but this is a different discussion. I didn't removed any well sourced info that supported Palestinians and actually added some that supports Palestinian's position. But this complaint isn't about some content dispute but mostly the way you interact on the talk pages in addition to a few NPoV violations that go far beyond the definition of POVPUSH. Settleman (talk) 23:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Could we please have an admin issue a BOOMERANG for Settleman ASAP? WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, etc., etc., etc. What a fiasco! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: I have no problem with being checked myself. I believe I will come out in pretty good shape though obviously not perfect. Everyone does mistakes.

• I can present the many times I took issues to the talk page when other editors disagreed with me and tried to build consensus. I have agreed to other editors suggestions even when I wasn't completely happy with them. Compromised.
• I initiated complete and well deserved overhaul to Susya from the state it was for some years.
• I went to the library to look at a book at Huldra's request.
• I presented photos of offline books and translated parts from Hebrew.
• I made a phone call to an NGO to ask for their source which then I used in the article.
• I started a new section at Temple Mount about status quo at Pluto's request, edited in 6k which by now grew to ~9k by other editors.
• I actively participate on WP:ARBPIA3 as though I am a relatively new editor, I believe there are many changes due.
• I have added meaningful pro-Palestinian information and on long text, I tried as much as I could to adhere to NPoV. For small facts like Ta'ayush being considered radical left (by Ta'ayush activist Neve Gordon and well know fact in Israel), my edit comply with WP:DUE.

I will probably not be online for the next 12 hours. Shana Tova. Settleman (talk) 06:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Huldra, sorry, but I deprodded the Havakook article--there's plenty of citations that prove the guy is notable. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
• Drmies, no need to say sorry, (I never edited the article): I just object to "promoting" a person with a MA to "academic"....while at the very same time "demoting" a professor to "activist". (I just don´t count just a MA as an "academic". Though this might be different in different countries: I recall as a mere Master-student, ordering some articles from Germany, and getting them, addressed to "Professor Doctor" me. Now, the Germans take titles seriously!) Huldra (talk) 21:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Academic or not, Havakook book is RS. Settleman (talk) 22:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. I also have found myself repeatedly at odds with Huldra, Nishidani, Zero0000 and Pluto2012, as well as IRISZOOM, who is so far absent in this discussion, usually with more than one of them at the same time. Would there be anything uniting these editors? Fairness forces me to admit, that I have been both right and wrong, although I always try to make the right edit and think I usually succeed in that goal, and I still feel that in some instances I was forced into a situation where I had to agree to a less than optimal version. I would dislike the idea of a group of editors teaming up and dominating certain articles or a specific issue simply by numbers. Debresser (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Would there be anything uniting these editors? Yes, probably: They're not here to promote a maximalist ethno-nationalist political ideology.Dan Murphy (talk) 22:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

But are they here to demote it? Settleman (talk) 22:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Stop playing at "there's a cabal". It's the last bastion of editors with a childish attitude. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy As an editor who was once himself accused of being part of a cabal, in a ArbCom case many years ago, I want to stress that there is nothing illegitimate or childish about worrying that Wikipedia should not be unduly influenced. Otherwise, ArbCom would not hear such cases.

I am not saying thesse editors constitute a cabal. At the same time I must admit that, having been opposed at times by 2-3 of these editors, one can not avoid the impression that there is strength in numbers. Debresser (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

The evidence presented shows nothing like what is alleged, as others have already noted. My own feeling is that such issues cannot really be legislated. Settleman's first "case" at ANI resulted in Pluto2012 getting blocked unilaterally by an admin - without a single editor supporting a block, let alone having a consensus. My feeling is that this has given Settleman some distorted ideas about how ANI works, and if this litigiousness continues, he will only get himself into trouble. This will only lead people to conclude that he has a WP:BATTLEGROUND mindset Kingsindian ♝♚ 11:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: I asked Pluto to self revert not once but twice before reporting him, same as I asked Nishidani 4 times to delete his NPA. Can you say you see nothing wrong with what I listed above? I appreciated your interjection and overall focused editing and to-the-point discussions but put yourself in my shoes, where another editor insults you and have double standards for the way s/he edits or you edit.

I'm yet to see one editor who actually justifies how Nishidani conduct is sensible and doesn't violate policies instead of putting a smokescreen by focusing on me. Settleman (talk) 14:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: I don't want to re-open the other case: the sanction has already expired. However, as anyone can see with the naked eye, there was no consensus, or even support for a block. As to people "focusing on you", that is standard procedure at WP:ANI. The conduct of all parties is investigated. Perhaps the reason people don't "justify Nishidani's conduct" is because they see nothing which requires justification. As a final thought, consider the following fact: In my whole editing history in WP:ARBPIA, I can't recall a single RfC where we both participated, and I didn't agree with Nishidani (roughly). Yet you have very different opinion of us. This suggests to me that the differences are in minor matters of style rather than anything major content-wise. In the talk page at Susya, often Nishidani made a long point with much background and digressions, and I simply rendered the main thrust in WikiSpeak. Kingsindian ♝♚ 15:06, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

So you believe it is OK to insult another editors? Use polemical language? Present attackers as victims? have double standards? etc' etc'

You defiantly didn't think Nishidani's edits on Regavim was sensible since you changed the lead. I enjoyed working with you b/c you were clear, spoke to the point and didn't have double standards so even when we didn't agree (and I don't expect people to agree with me all the time) at least you were reasonable and consistent. Settleman (talk) 15:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: I was talking about RfCs above, not general edits. It would be hard to not disagree with someone over the course of a thousand edits (unless one is a meat/sockpuppet). As to the Regavim lead, I simply rearranged it, without any change in content, to be more coherent. It is generally a good idea to define a subject before tearing into it. While we are at it, let's look at the version which existed before Nishidani's edit. Regavim is an Israeli NGO dedicated to ensuring the legal, responsible, and environmentally friendly use of land, sourced to nothing, but presumably is a self-description. That's very neutral, isn't it? The article was a stub, had no criticism, no funding details, no background, no mention of connection with settlers. Almost all of the above relevant content has been added by Nishidani. I am not knowledgeable enough to do this, I recognize that what I did was mere WP:GNOMEing: anyone could have done what I did. Kingsindian ♝♚ 16:07, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: The article was created less than 24 hours before Nishidani joined the party. It was a matter of (short) time before the pile of criticism/smear (some of which is due) will hit the fan and my experience from Susya told me, it will be done soon and with enthusiasm. I wasn't wrong!

Sometimes WP:GNOMEing is where the WP:WEIGHT is hiding. Lets repeat a trick that worked for us before - Can you look into my (virtual) eyes and tell me that putting criticism in the first sentence, even before a neutral description, isn't a glaring violation of WP:NPOV (and probably a few more guidelines I'm not aware of). How about the rest of the list. If anyone would have made the slightest attempt to explain why I'm wrong, why Nishidani's pratices are within the policies and guideline, I would have withdrawn this request but so far, nobody did. And we both know why? Settleman (talk) 16:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: This is a fundamentally wrong way to think about things. You yourself edited the article before Nishidani did, yet you did not see fit to change the unsourced, wholly misleading and hagiographic first sentence. Was that not a violation of WP:NPOV, by the same criterion? It is not the responsibility of other editors to dig up basic, but unflattering information on an organization and add it to the article. That way lies the WP:BATTLEGROUND. The information Nishidani added was well sourced, basic and relevant (almost all of it remains in the article). If you find Nishidani's edit jarring, just rearrange it as I did. Kingsindian ♝♚ 16:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: Call me an eventualist if you want and in this case, it was an absolute certainty someone would show up. I made a minor contribution to Regavim and moved on. When I created Murabitat which most sources about them write about clashes with visitors and the police, I believe I made a pretty good job of WP:NPoV before another editor took over. Settleman (talk) 17:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: Eventualism is just a fuzzy label, while WP:NPOV is policy. What I said above is simply a paraphrase of the following quote: Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. I assume we agree that the current state of the article (it seems relatively stable now) is better in respect to NPOV that the older one. Given the initial state of the article, Nishidani's edit (since almost all of the content remains) moved it towards this state. If you feel that it overcompensated, just rearrange it as I did. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:45, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: You blame me for an edit I didn't do b/c I contributed once to an article while protecting Nishidani's edit that even you, who usually agree with him and have very different (if not opposing) POV than me, felt it was violating WP:NPoV. We have interacted long enough for me to believe you don't really think that way. I respect the camaraderie but sometimes it is good to tell a friend - "Hi bud, you went too far". Settleman (talk) 19:15, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Just note the "policies" Settleman links to

• WP:NPA: not about Settleman: not an NPA-violation
• WP:POLEMIC—>WP:UP ..which is not relevant (.aaaaaand if you think what you quote there is insulting, try reading Donkey punch! (Warning: NSFW))
• WP:POVPUSH —> essay
• WP:CPUSH —> essay
• I think we can all(?) agree that this report from Settleman was without merit. I have not made up my mind about WP:BOOMERANG yet; what sort of "boomerang"? And Settleman: about Ta'ayush being considered radical in Israel: have you heard about Confirmation bias? Try googling for "respected+Ta'ayush": is not Tanya Reinhart Israeli? Oh, and Settleman: please don´t ever write "pr Huldra" again: when you have done that, you have mostly totally misread me. Please don´t hide behind me again: I´m perfectly capable of doing my own edits, thank you very much. Huldra (talk) 21:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: I have removed the NPA and POLEMIC claim. I think think they both extremely unsuitable in a discussion between people, just like your comment about settlers=thieves. I do not think that all Palestinians are terrorists, but how would you react if someone wrote that. is that constructive? Settleman (talk) 07:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment - The way I saw it, POVPUSH and CPUSH were code names to excessive violation of expected behavior from a Wikipedia editor. WP:Wikilawyering over what exactly are the violation is missing the real point. When editors act like WP is the Wild West and they can do whatever they want, admins need to realize, there is a problem. Several uninvolved editors who responded seem to see nothing wrong with Nishidani's behavior which is beyond me but maybe I'm naive. Right now, I feel like I'm editing in a Zoo. I can be pushed around with nonsense claims by people whose protested bias is as strong as mine if not stronger (I voted to the center these last elections). Again, WP:ARBPIA3 might address some of this.

WP:CPUSH has detailed suggested remedies and is basically part of WP:CIVIL. POVPUSH means excessive and repeated violations of WP:NPOV. If this isn't enough to look at the case and see the WP:WikiViolence, I don't know what will. Settleman (talk) 08:09, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: You've been quoting a lot of policies/guidelines/essays for a new user, but you've missed the mark. Take NPA and POLEMIC for example (and gladly you've struck them out). NPA equates to personal insults directed at other editors, i.e. "you are an ass hat". Talking about the subject of an article critically isn't a violation of NPA. POLEMIC would be gathering "evidence" or slander on other editors and storing it on-wiki. You yourself "violated" POVPUSH, and how could someone be a civil POV pusher and commit NPA? You need to reread WP:NPOV and think of how it relates to your actions, and maybe even WP:WWIN. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 19:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman:Thank you for removing this two first "charges" against Nishidani, but I´m still tearing out my hair in frustration about all the time we have to waste with your various allegations, Huldra (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: Now all left for you is to explain why presenting a terrorist as a victim or why having double standards in order to remove material one WP:DONTLIKE are sensible and do not constitute of WP:Disruptive editing. Settleman (talk) 21:39, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: Why, oh why, should I waste my time on this? Each time you have cried "wolf" before, and I have come running, looking for that horrible wolf, all I have found is at most a small dog. Or a *picture* of a wolf. Enough, Huldra (talk) 21:47, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Huldra: No Wolves and no dogs. You have avoided the main subject issue here since the beginning and instead turned the table on me. Well, it worked. Congrats. Apparently you support Wikipedia being a place where a request to look at the highly questionable conduct of another editor is punishable. At the same time, the original complaint get virtually no attention. Settleman (talk) 07:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Settleman: are you kidding me? The entire reason your report became a WP:BOOMERANG is because your "original complaint" was looked into and found to be comepletely baseless, while you, on the other hand, had unclean hands. Stop playing the victim. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 14:39, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Sturmgewehr88: I understand then, you embrace having double standards or presenting terrorists/assailants as victims and think it is completely sensible to edit that way. I really hope WP:ARBPIA3 will deal with it. Settleman (talk) 16:04, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

As for my unclean hands, do you compare not contributing enough in a new article to the terrorist/victim example? And looking for "Radical Ta'ayush", search for it on google or maybe even better, in Hebrew and you will get thousands of hits. The article was (and still is) completely undue presenting the activists as a bunch of Kumbaya singers when they routinely clash with the police etc'. Instead of bringing some low-RS source, I found a book that has a quote by Ta'ayush member, high-RS. If this is unclean hands, I'm at fault. Settleman (talk) 16:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposed WP:BOOMERANG for User:Settleman

• It's hard to see who it was who added this as a separate section, but it is more logically a subsection of the section immediately above, and I have adjusted accordingly. John Carter (talk) 14:34, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

It was added here. Settleman (talk) 15:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Which, presumably, means that Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi supports such a sanction, as it is generally the case that someone supports their own proposal unless otherwise stated, but I guess clarification might help. John Carter (talk) 15:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I think I gave you 'public thanks' for your edit User:John Carter, when you made this a subsection (well-spotted) assuming that would alert you ("Tis I Leclerk!" style). I am not directly involved in the discussion, but it has had much discussion. A new section for the proposed sanction would keep things tidy. I do think that User:Settleman was perhaps ill-advised to raise this here; but it's for the community to decide eh? It also provides an arena for the editor to argue otherwise? _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 15:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Like I wrote earlier "I have no problem with being checked myself. I believe I will come out in pretty good shape though obviously not perfect. Everyone does mistakes."

• I can present the many times I took issues to the talk page when other editors disagreed with me and tried to build consensus. I have agreed to other editors suggestions even when I wasn't completely happy with them. Compromised.
• I initiated complete and well deserved overhaul to Susya from the state it was for some years.
• I went to the library to look at a book at Huldra's request.
• I presented photos of offline books and translated parts from Hebrew.
• I made a phone call to an NGO to ask for their source which then I used in the article.
• I started a new section at Temple Mount about status quo at Pluto's request, edited in 6k which by now grew to ~9k by other editors.
• I actively participate on WP:ARBPIA3 as though I am a relatively new editor, I believe there are many changes due.
• I have added meaningful pro-Palestinian information and on long text, I tried as much as I could to adhere to NPoV. For small facts like Ta'ayush being considered radical left (by Ta'ayush activist Neve Gordon and well know fact in Israel), my edit comply with WP:DUE.

I Joined wikipedia b/c the Susya article was embarrassing!!! No structure whatsoever! False information! Two completely separate communities have their information mixed, not to mention, nothing about Israeli view of Susya and more. I was faced with so much resistance and bias on legitimate information that I was amazed. I hope WP:ARBPIA3 will resolve some of those issues. Settleman (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support - Nishidani has done nothing that Settleman accuses him of, the "policies" that Nishidani supposedly violated are either not policies or not at all relevant to Nishidani's actions, and it appears that Settleman is just a POV pusher who hides behind "eventualism" and ignorance. This whole report is a WP:CIR issue. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support This is a strange section and even stranger accusations. What the Boomerange should be, I have no idea. But it shouldnt be drastic. The account is about a month and a half old. They need to broaden their editing and learn more about WP. AlbinoFerret 03:33, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps a warning along the lines of what John Carter recommends would be enough of a sanction. AlbinoFerret 18:11, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose sanctions, given the very recent establishment of the account, pending evidence of sockpuppetry from other previous accounts of course, if that is found to be the case. I would however strongly urge him to either seek some form of mentor or otherwise get some assistance in dealing with the policies and guidelines here, particularly considering he seems to edit in a very heated, contentious area which has discretionary sanctions in place. John Carter (talk) 17:21, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@John Carter: Why did you bring up sockpuppetry? No one else has made that accusation. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 19:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Just covering all the bases. I have no reason to think that this individual is a sockpuppet, but there seem to be a hell of a lot of them around lately, and some topics seem to get more of them than others. John Carter (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support 3 month topic-ban, from ARBPIA-articles. Yes: User:AlbinoFerret is absolutely correct, Settleman needs to "broaden their editing and learn more about WP." Though I would keep the pages connected to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel articles 3 outside such a ban (it seems unfair that he should not be able to voice his opinion there, if he wants to.) Besides the fact that Settleman goes around, actively searching up sources which supports his views (see above), I am frankly sick of him "assuming bad faith" about everyone who do not share his views. The fact that he accused Pluto2012 of "falsification of sources" (an extremely serious charge, IMO), on the most flimsiest of evidence (see above), was the last straw, coming after the fact that he accused Nishidani of WP:NPA- when there was obviously no such thing. Enough. Settleman: please go and edit other parts of Wikipedia for a while, Huldra (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• Support 3 month topic-ban (per Huldra) with the provision that s/he actually works on other articles in order to gain valuable experience and knowledge of policies and guidelines. Working on the assumption that Settleman is a newbie, it's hardly uncommon for new users to come in swinging their 'righting great wrongs' batons in any of the ARB sanctioned areas presumably due to lack of experience. While it's uncommon for them to evolve into good editors, I've certainly seen this occur... but some things should be left as 'enough rope' issues. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• Mentoring and three month trial period where Settleman proves he is capable of editing in a more moderate fashion. I would take up such a role with all party agreement, although my last mentoring attempt met with mixed results. Irondome (talk) 22:42, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• Wholehearted support from me. I am not much good as a mentor myself, but I would be willing to offer any assistance I can as I can at his request. John Carter (talk) 22:47, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Moreover, I'd ask again (see. my "14:41, 14 September 2015" above) to escape for a moment from condemnation of Settleman and to give a specific analysis (yes / no / why) of his examples for the (possible) Nishidani's violations. Unfortunately, at the moment, this discussion seems me another attempt of the same "judges" to punish an editor who dared to criticize one from a current Wiki-establishment. That's the pity, but it isn't a first such case. If I am not mistaken, the last such Case against Nishidani lasted 37 minutes (!) till its 1st condemnation, and 10 hours - until its final closure.):) As I think, the current Case will be a good example too for a Palestine-Israel articles 3 discussion, because it characterized well a current situation in IP sector. I hope that has to be a way to repair its current status when Wiki isn't NPOV, and being only a spokesman for one of conflict's parties, only distorts an existing reality in the region. Sorry, but it's how I see it. --Igorp_lj (talk) 01:02, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a pointless dispute. Settleman is inexperienced, had piled Pelion on Ossa itself founded on sandy foundations, and the whole mess is unreadable. There is far too much wild citation of policy in obscure content disputes. Since he is new, he should be told to refrain from throwing round policy tags without showing much evidence of understanding how the guidelines are used in practice; to desist from using A/I frivolously. Simon, one of the steadiest men around here, has offered to mentor him, and that should be enough. I don't speak of a normal upfront control: but merely to ask Settleman to talk some issues through with Simon via email, and the occasional request on his page. If something like this can be organized this should be closed. Either that or just a warning to exercise more care and attention, and to focus on issues without multiplying them so that things get out of hand, as they have here.Nishidani (talk) 20:25, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I have no problem with taking some mentorship though editing Susya was quite a crush course. This whole procedure is like a reverse of case of If the judge said to a man, 'Take the splinter from between your teeth,' he would retort, 'Take the beam from between your eyes.Baba Bathra 15b My example of misconduct are like speeding through a red light and other editors throw at me violations of rolling stop. Shabbat Shalom. Settleman (talk) 07:43, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Broter misrepresenting citations and pushing an Islamophobic POV

Broter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

All of the user's edits relating to Islam have had the singular purpose of making the religion look like a religion of terrorism, particularly in trying to portray Muhammad as a bloodthirsty warlord, usually using WP:PRIMARY-based WP:OR instead of mainstream academic sources. This included starting off with an edit war at Depictions of Muhammad ([66], [67], [68]).

As can be seen on his userpage, he does plenty of work relating to Mormonism and some to Christianity, and is generally able to ignore sectarian differences there. When it comes to Islam? His only book is titled "Islamic terrorism." Do I deny that that's a thing? Obviously not. But I am no more under the delusion that it represents Islam any more than polygamy represents Mormonism.

Recently, in the article Muhammad in Islam, Broter has taken to trying to add a cherry-picked quote to present Muhammad as forcing the conversion of Abu Sufyan, next to a bunch of sourced text describing Muhammad as sparing Abu Sufyan's life. He initially tried using a primary source, at which point I explained that we require non-primary modern academic sources. He then tried citing a obviously unacceptably sectarian work. When I explained that sectarianism of any form is not allowed here, he tried citing a Muslim source, as if that was the issue.

Here's the kicker: the secondary source cited, The Jurisprudence of the Prophetic Biography, does not contain the quote it's being cited for. Search for "apostle of God" (in quotes), and none of the entries that come up begin to match the quote. It's not that the section isn't available to view. Page 227 (the cited page) is available, but doesn't even contain the words "apostle of God." The phrase "before your neck is cut off by the sword" appears no where in the book. Even the individual words 'neck' and 'sword' do not appear together in the book. I don't know whether this is because Broter is only getting his info from sectarian sources that would lie about their sources, or if it's because he's just decided to use any means necessary to present WP:THETRUTH about "the enemy," or if he doesn't understand that the quote actually has to be somewhere in the book for the citation to be valid, but the quote in question is not in that book at all. He has also added this false quotation to other articles. I'd've gone through the usual WP:DR if it wasn't for the witting or unwitting misrepresentation of sources.

Now, if someone who doesn't have a history of an Islamophobic bias wants to add modern, mainstream academic sources that discuss warfare and forced conversions carried out by Muhammad, fine by me. If Broter wants to keep working on LDS related articles, cool. But sectarianism of any sort has no place here. Broter has undeniable POV issues when it comes to Islam and/or Muhammad, and needs to back off from articles relating to either. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm. The same quote is on our Abu Sufyan ibn Harb page, and appears to come from [ http://www.answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/ ]. That site is used a lot on Wikipedia.[69] I suggest for someone with more knowledge about Islam and the Quran than I have to bring this to WP:RSNB. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The quote is on page 277 of The Jurisprudence of the Prophetic Biography, according to the sources, which I provided. You Ian.thomson, do not quote my sources correctly. I can not view the page 277 of this book on google books.--Broter (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The page you wrongly quoted Page 227 (not the cited page) is also not availabe on google books. So much for your search. Anyway the quote is on page 277 of this book.--Broter (talk) 16:07, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Ok, here's page 277, which is quite visible in that link. Where's the quote? Oh, not there, either. Probably because you got it from a sectarian source. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:16, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The quote is in the book [70], there they quote the work by Dr. Buti. I changed my source only because you ,Ian.thomson, wanted a modern muslim source. A modern non-muslim source is equally valuable! If the quote is not in the muslim source in the english translation, the non-muslim source is as valuable. The first modern source called Behind the Veil: Unmasking Islam was written by a nativ arab speaker. He translated from the original arab version of The Jurisprudence of the Prophetic Biography. Probably you know the Middle East Media Research Institute, they report about speeches in the arab world which are not shown on western TV.--Broter (talk) 15:07, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I never said "cite a Muslim source," I repeatedly told you to cite a modern academic source. That you can only think in terms of "Muslim vs non-Muslim," don't seem to understand that Behind the Veil is a sectarian source, and don't seem to understand that it is sectarianism that is the problem (no matter how many times it is explained to you) are signs that you should not be editing articles relating to Islam. As I have asked you before, do you want us to start basing our articles on Mormonism on the opinions of imams? Do you want us to write the article on Joseph Smith from the perspective that he was an advocate of occultism, pedophilia, and polygamy? If not, then quit acting out the same behavior in articles on Islam. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I admit that my only source was [71] and hope that I will not be punished. The said quote is anyway removed everywhere.--Broter (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

My work on Islam was generally well received with the exception of this instance. So please do not punish me for this mistake.--Broter (talk) 16:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

"Overlooked" =/= "well received." Ian.thomson (talk) 01:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• I think this editor, Broter, is clearly using Wikipedia to advance extremist views in violation of WP:POVPUSH and WP:NPOV. The misuse of sources and the denial of such misuse is astounding. The inclusion of hate speech from non-reliable sources is worrying. AusLondonder (talk) 02:14, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I will grant that his work on Mormonism seems to be in line with policy. A topic ban (even if just an informal voluntary one) from articles concerning Islam or Muhammad seems more in order than a WP:NOTHERE block. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Problem can add

I ask help on the item First Italo-Ethiopian War,

I tried to have an agreement but we have not understood.

Now I added a photo of Wikimedia Commons relevant to the item [[:File:Two Italian soldiers survivors.jpg|thumb|Two Italians soldiers captured and prisoner after the Battle of Adwa.]]

and I have added not troop to specify the not involvement of a Russian army in this war.

Talk:First Italo–Ethiopian War

only these two things.

Mr. Bgwhite continues to delete my added. --Mulugheta alula roma (talk) 08:43, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

This could be a WP:Boomerang. The Average Wikipedian (talk) 11:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Mulugheta alula roma. This board is not the place to solve content disputes. Please have a look at the options at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. -- Diannaa (talk) 13:06, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

ok, thanks--Mulugheta alula roma (talk) 13:35, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• I think this was sent on too quickly; the user needs to argue their point on the article talk page first. The problem lies in the "with not troops" phrase. First of all it's not proper English, but second, the comment is not supported by the footnoted source that follows. Thanks to Google Books I can complete this poor reference: pages 27-30 make it clear that throughout that period Russia did indeed supply military aid to Ethiopia. Drmies (talk) 14:00, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
• There actually is some discussion, but it is severely hampered by Mulugheta alula roma's poor English. And that Russian stuff, the sources are pretty clear, so I don't see what there is to dispute. Drmies (talk) 14:21, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Maybe http://ru.wikipedia.org is a better place for him/her? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:31, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Reporting user:Springee for Hounding and Tendentious editing

user:Springee has been disruptively editing and wikihounding individuals over the past few weeks. Springee has wikihounded user:HughD by following him to multiple articles and reverting his edits in part or in whole, as well as disruptively tagging his edits. [[72]][[73]][[74]][[75]][[76]][[77]][[78]][[79]]. In all of these articles, you can extend the list to 500 edits and see that Springee only became involved immediately after an edit by HughD and Springee's involvement was either to revert HughD's edit, or tag them under the guise of "undue" or "notability". You can do a simple Ctrl+F search for "springee" to see exactly where the user became involved in the article and see what their first few edits were. Springee had no previous involvement on these articles and it's clear he only became involved to disrupt the edits of another user.

Springee has also tendentiously reverted edits under the premise of "no consensus", which is a direct example of WP:TEND. As per wp:TEND "You delete the cited additions of others with the complaint that they did not discuss their edits first. There is no rule on Wikipedia that someone has to get permission from you before they put cited information in an article." It's one thing to object to material for RS, weight, or NPOV purposes, but to remove reliably sourced additions because "they didn't discuss it first and get consensus" is a direct example of tendentious editing. Here are multiple instances of these types of reverts by Springee [80][81][82][83][84][85][86][87]. What's even more concerning is that Springee applies his "no consensus" reasoning selectively. It appears that edits he/she agrees with don't get reverted for reasons of "no consensus" and Springee even goes out of the way, in some cases, to thank and welcome the addition of material added without consensus [88]. On top of that, the user protects information added without consensus by citing "no consensus" for removal. This inconsistnecy and selective application shows that this isn't just a matter of not understanding Wikipedia policy, but a matter of selectively disrupting disagreeable edits. I have discussed this matter with Springee here [89], yet the user persists in this type of behavior. Scoobydunk (talk) 17:55, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• [Note, this is a later edit. Please note the date and time vs edits below. It is placed here to directly reply to the changes listed in the ANI accusation above]
• The first list of 8 references are simply links to page edit histories. I'm not sure how I am supposed to reply to that material. Yes, I edited on all those pages for various reasons.
• The second list of 8 references are to edits that Scoobydunk claims are WP:TEND. Note that this is a somewhat vague description and not a WP guideline. Scoobydunk claims I'm reverting (presumably solely) with the justification "no consensus". I'm putting forth that his claim is not true. I will go through all 8 of the edits in question to explain why.

1. [90] This is an edit in which I reverted a removal of content by Scoobydunk. Another editor had added the material and I agreed with its inclusion. The related talk section is here[91]. Note the discussion regarding the edits in question began before the Scoobydunk reverted Rjensen's edits which I added back to the article.
2. [92] This edit, like many relate to the changes HughD made to the Chicago-style politics page. On Aug 26th, 2015 an IP editor tried to return the article to the subject it had from its creation in 2011 through April of 2014 when HughD changed the topic to concentrate on a POV fork. The IP's initial edit is here[93]. I noticed HughD's involvement with this topic because this was during the same time period when he was attempting to insert a controversial Mother Jones article into a number of global warming related pages. In edits below I explain(ed) why I was involved in the MJ related content dispute. Since I am from near Chicago I decided to investigate the changes. That is when I saw that HughD had turned the article into a POV fork with no justifications on the talk page. The tag claiming the article was about a meme was simply not true historically and was added to justify removing other content. Thus I did have a reason for removing it that was related to the topic, not the editor. The topic shift was questioned in April of this year with no reply from HughD. The tag in question was only added after the IP editor tried to restore the earlier article topic sentence.
3. [94] Removal of the same tag as above. This time HughD added it back in without responding to questions about the topic redirection on the talk page. Here is my question regarding the article redirect[95]. The tag was restored by HughD at the same time [96]. Restoring a questionable tag when other editors have made it clear that the existence of the tag should be discussed is not constructive editing.
4. [97] This one is laughable. The editor in question was an "undercover" diarist at the Daily Kos. He was indefinately blocked shortly after this exchange [98]. The editor had added ~8k worth of content in a mass addition. Several editors, myself included objected to such a large and not well balanced addition. Several of us engaged in a discussion with the editor regarding the edit he was trying to make [99]. Prior to getting consensus and over the objections of the consensus of the talk page VVUSA/KochTruths added the content. I reverted it. For my trouble I was accused of being on the Koch brother's payroll on the Daily Kos.
5. [100] This was disputed content which had already been added by HughD then removed by Capitalismojo then restored by HughD before he even joined in the talk page discussion regarding the content. I was following the edit history of Capitalismojo (not HughD) when I saw this content dispute. I agreed with the reasons for removal and hence joined in the editing. Note that this Mother Jones content was added to nearly a dozen article and thus what seem to be a range of unrelated articles are all part of the same content disagreement in which several editors were involved.
6. [101] In this case, while there is an active AFD discussing both the Chicago-style politics and Chicago-style politics (meme) (the later a POV fork article created when HughD couldn't get consensus to keep the older article focused on the POV subtopic) pages with a likely outcome that the articles (the parent and the POV fork) will be merged, HughD adds a tag from the parent to the likely to be removed via merger POV fork. For the sake of article stability this sort of editing should be avoided hence I removed the tag. Note this was done after Fyddlestyx did a great job of restoring not only the older content that HughD had removed (see the article's recent edit history) but also did a good job of including mention of the meme content Hugh wanted to focus on. I don't think it was unreasonable to ask that we not put such edits into the article until the AFD and article mergers are complete.
7. [102] This tag (no material was removed) is related to the Chicago-style politics and associated CSP meme article. Another editor tagged the newly created meme page as an orphan. Hugh then proceeded to add questionable "chicago-style politics" references to several articles including this one. The additions were questionable and I put both questions on the talk pages and in the article each time the content was added. As an example, in the Halftime talk edit list you will see I am the second editor [103]. Thus the article tag was an invitation to justify a questionable content addition. The tags were not stand alone.
8. [104] This is an article which was discussing the Southern Strategy. An editor made a large 2.1K removal of sourced content. I reverted that removal and added a discussion page comment asking for justification for such a large removal [105].

• While I can see Scoobydunk doesn't agree with my POVs on various subjects I think he was looking for a reason to claim WP:TEND and thus when he found posts that appeared to fit the pattern he went with it and we are here. I would question how he can claim this isn't about the content when it appears he isn't actually following the content discussions. I will also reiterate my claim from below that I believe Scoobydunk has an axle to grind. Consider this accusation of dishonesty on my part that he posted in reply to my comments [106]. Springee (talk) 03:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

2. (above) This particular edit is as clear an example of the reported user's blatant edit war baiting and tendentious editing as any. Several editors including the reported editor and an SPA IP were understandably confused about the relationship between our Political history of Chicago and Chicago-style politics articles and were approaching Chicago-style politics as a POV re-telling of Political history of Chicago, so an {{about-distinguish}} article hat was a completely appropriate, constructive, helpful approach to building our encyclopedia. Within the hour, with no talk page discussion, the reported user reverted the addition of the article hat with his favorite edit summary, "no consensus," which to the reported user means "I don't like it." The reported user characterized their motivation as "Since I am from near Chicago I decided to investigate," but WP:HARASS includes no exception authorizing harassment of editors from the same geographic area as one's self. By "I noticed HughD's involvement" the reported editor means of course he was digging through my edit history looking for contributions to political, but non-Tea Party, articles. My edit history goes back to 2006 including some 15,000 edits, 70% article space, and multiple good articles so respectfully if the reported user's harassment behavior is not addressed we should expect the harassment to continue for a good long time. I agree with the reported editor's strategy, I am a deeply flawed human and reverting my edits on articles from my history very likely should have induced a reportable edit war, and advanced the American politics ban he sought, but it did not this time WP:GAME. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd also like to note that Springee's edit above is another example of tendentious behavior since he clearly disregards proper threading, as I've previously mentioned on this notice. Springee is clearly trying to justify the fact that he was wikihounding and reverting editors' comments for the reason of "no consensus" which is an explicit example of tendentious editing. I'd also like to point out that Springee regards this ANI notice and the over 16 examples of his wikihounding/tendentious editing as "jokes" [107]. Scoobydunk (talk) 00:54, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Seriously? It seems like you are trying to attack me because of a content disagreement on the Southern Strategy article and perhaps left over resentment because I disagreed with you and argued against your claims on the Americans For Prosperity RfC that recently didn't go your way (RfC[108] and your frustration that it was not decided as you had wished [109]). You have disagreed with myself and a few other editors on the Southern Strategy talk page recently. Today I proposed making some changes here [110], the first edit on the talk page since Aug 30th. You personally haven't edited that page since Aug 27th. I proposed adding to a section that you have strongly opposed since it's inception. So today when I proposed additional changes, changes you oppose, you quickly reply (your first content related reply to any article/talk page since Aug 27th). Note that your only edits between the 27th and today were to attack me attack me on Sept 3rd/4th. In that case you were siding with a blogger who initially joined here under the name "KochTruths" and filed an ANI accusing myself and three other editors of being paid stooges of Koch Industries[111]. It seems odd that as soon as I propose some changes to an article you appear to be watching, changes you wouldn't agree with, an ANI pops up, an ANI almost exclusively about edits to articles that you aren't involved with. It seems to me you are trying to game the system by using a ANI to block edits you don't agree with. Springee (talk) 18:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

That's not entirely fair, the concern that you were following HughD was raised by both Scooby and myself more than two weeks ago, in our comments on your edit warring report against Hugh. FWIW, there is pretty clear evidence of your following him too: especially to the Bernard Stone GA review, to Political History of Chicago, to Donor's Trust and to Chicago Style Politics. I was also concerned that you were one of several editors who seemed to be following Hugh, which is why I urged you (and Hugh) to avoid working on the same articles just a day or two ago. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The evidence of your wikihounding and tendentious editing is plainly clear. Please focus on the actual merit of the complaint instead of raising red herring arguments in the form of argumentum ad hominem. To address those concerns, I've raised these issues with you over the course of our discussions, and they've gone ignored. Now that the weekend is done and I have time to dedicate to addressing this issue, so I've raised a complaint here. It was specifically this edit [112] that prompted me to raise this issue. Again, you listed "no consensus" as part of the reason for removal, even after you were aware that removing material for that reason was tendentious behavior. Upon further review, I noticed "no consensus" in many other reverts of your's that I was unaware of before. This is continuing and prolonged behavior that needs to be addressed. I suggest you speak to the accusations levied against you, instead of trying to "shoot the messenger".Scoobydunk (talk) 20:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• In regard to the "following him to multiple articles and reverting his edits in part or in whole, as well as disruptively tagging his edits accusation the wide range of subject areas covered are: Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change, Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, Political history of Chicago, Halftime in America, David Axelrod, Mitt Romney presidential campaign, 2012, Karl Rove and Chicago-style politics. It seems reasonable that HughD is being followed but I am unsure in which direction tend is supposed to be in operation. GregKaye 19:20, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• I mentioned this in a previous edit below but I will add it here for better clarity. There are two recent topics in which I and others engaged with HughD. The first related to the edit warring report I created related to a series of edits by HughD [113]. The pages in question were: Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change,American Petroleum Institute,ExxonMobil,American Coalition for Clean Coal Electricity,Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley,The Heartland Institute, and FreedomWorks. You will see there were multiple discussions related to the attempt add a single Mother Jones article to all of those articles. As I said in the ANI there were at least three other editors who disagreed with the insertion as HughD had made it and as he reinserted it. One characteristic of HughD's editing is repeated insertions even as people are discussing the topic. That and the fact that he undid multiple reverts, not just by myself but by other editors who objected to the same article.

The second set of articles relating to HughD's edits all involve the Chicago-style politics article. This article got my attention as I was reviewing HughD's recent edits associated with the then active dispute over the Mother Jones article. Given the range of articles HughD was attempting to put the MJ article into and simply trying to keep up with all the various edits it was natural to check to see what edits he made recently. That is when I noticed the revert of an IP edit to the Chicago-style article (I'm from near Chicago originally so that also caught my eye). Then I discovered the history of the article. April of 2014 you will see that HughD totally changed the nature of the article without a single comment on the talk page [114]. The IP editor was attempting to undo that change. DaltonCastle also noted the change but his talk comment was not answered by HughD [115]. With the support of DaltonCastle I started to revert the article to it's earlier form. The result was HughD creating a second article as well as flooding the original one with edit tags. When an unrelated editor noted that HughD's newly created article was an orphan[116]. TO address this HughD added questionable references to other articles. Those articles include the ones I added "weight" tags to. The articles in question were Halftime in America [117], David Axelrod [118], Mit Romney [119], and Karl Rove [120]. Again these were all related to the same Chicago-style politics content dispute and were added simply to address the article orphan issue related to a newly created POV fork from the older article.

Scoobydunk did mention a few others that are unrelated to HughD (is original post seems to mix and match things). Some are related to the [Southern Strategy] article. This is part of why I think he is going after me as a way to address a content dispute. This one is Southern Strategy related [121]. I guess I'm wrong in thinking removing that much reliably sourced content without a talk page comment is questionable? Again the BRD cycle says if someone reverts it the next step is discuss. However, as that revert related to an editor other than HughD I'm not sure how this counts as hounding or much of anything other than the BRD cycle. Scoobydunk also listed this edit [122]. Well that is a content dispute with me on the Southern Strategy page. Note that I was reverting a removal of his, not adding/readding content of my own.

This final one is a bad joke [123]. That was my ONE revert of content added to all of the Koch Industires page by an editor who, as people suspected was a troll who was almost instantly blocked for the user name "KochTruths" then came back under a new user name and got blocked about a week later (indefinite block) [124]. The editor made a series of article changes, was reverted by another editor and then engaged in something that pretended to be discussion. When he went ahead and made changes that we had not agreed to in the talk section I reverted them. One of the charges made by Scoobydunk is that I was engaged in tagging edits or reverting edits without discussion or cause. That is far from true. I have extensively used the talk pages to try to discuss changes before editing the actual articles. Hence my edit history is heavy on the talk page end of things. For reasons that it can appear to look bad when one doesn't see how the edits I agree that I will avoid editing interactions with HughD once the Chicago AFD is closed out. But I can't help but question Scoobydunk's motives to get involved in something that in which he isn't at all involved. Why join in this boomerang ANI on the side of a trolling editor if you don't have an ax of your own to grind [125]. Springee (talk) 03:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

A couple of things to address. First, it is also outlined in WP:TEND that improper threading can also indicate tendentious behavior. Fyddlestix and I have already responded to GregKaye's post. If you want to respond to it as well, then your response would come after ours and be placed below our responses, in the correct chronological order. As per WP:THREAD "If you wish to reply to a comment that has already been replied to, place your response below the last response, while still only adding one colon to the number of colons preceding the statement you're replying to." If you are going to correct the placement of this most recent response, feel free to move my own response (this response), as well. Second, outlining your reasoning for the behavior is irrelevant. Just like the reasoning for edit warring is irrelevant to the fact that an editor was edit warring. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong in the addition/removal of material in an edit war, edit warring is seen as disruptive and comes with swift results. Harassment and tendentious editing is no different. Here we have multiple concrete examples of your following HughD around to multiple articles that you've never been involved in, and reverting his edits. We also have multiple examples of you trying to force people to get a consensus before adding or removing material from articles. There are valid reasons for reverting other users but the objection of "no consensus" is not one of them as identified and explained by WP:TEND. So it's not a part of the BRD cycle. The BRD cycle includes reversions and discussion that actually have to deal with WP policies, and gaining the approval of you or other editors is not one of those policies, as is directly expressed in WP:TEND.Scoobydunk (talk) 07:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Relevant context here is that Hugh was reported here multiple times (including twice by Springee) for his behavior on Koch and climate-change articles, and was topic-banned for it by Ricky81682 a few weeks ago. Springee has continued to follow Hugh since then, though, most notably to Chicago-style politics, which led to some squabbling between the two of them on the talk page, a spin-off article (Chicago-style politics (meme)) and this AFD. Fyddlestix (talk) 19:30, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're not sure about, so I'll repeat it more plainly. Reverting edits because there is "no consensus" is referred to as tendentious editing. Springee has made multiple reverts almost solely based on there being "no consensus" or "no consent" and has spoken this directly in the edit comment of the diffs listed above. I've addressed this issue with Springee, so he's aware that it's tendentious to require editors get consensus before adding/removing cited and sourced material from articles, yet he continues to do so.Scoobydunk (talk) 20:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it's quite fair to claim Scoobydunk is attacking me due to a content disagreement. His posting of this ANI and the retort to my Southern Strategy talk comments were back to back. As for following HughD claims, well actually I agreed with Fyddlestix that it was looking questionable and thus once the Chicago article was settled I am planning on cutting back on editing in general for a while. I'm still rather frustrated by the external attack on me related to the Koch Industries page mentioned above. However, the claims of following all over are not quite right. In reality we have just two recent sets of edits. The first was the set of edits related to trying to insert a Mother Jones article into potentially a dozen articles. Those were the mid August edits. They all related to basically the same topic. I did accuse HughD of edit waring related to those edits [[126]]. Since this was a case of trying to insert a questionable citation into several articles it looks like I'm following to a number of articles when in fact it's all part of the same content dispute. I discovered the articles in question by looking at some of the activities of Capitalismojo and Arthur Rubin. I agreed with them that the edits were questionable. The Chicago-style politics article was one that I admit I found via looking through HughD's edit history. However, that is hardly the hounding Scoobydunk wants to claim. HughD was making lots of edits to lots of articles as part of what I saw as edit waring (again see the recent ANI). I noticed that he objected to some IP edits and immediately posted a "don't do that again" type message on the IP's talk page (one of the IP edits in question [127]). What the IP editor objected to was the way HughD had taken an article about the phrase "Chicago-style politics" and turned it into an article that discussed attacks against Obama. This was don't without comments on the talk page and against the muted objections of others. Sorry, that article caught my attention and I agreed with the IP editor as well as the editor who objected on the talk page. The details of that interaction can be seen in the following talk pages but they are on the up and up. After creating a new page of questionable value another editor tagged it as questionable for bing an orphan article. HughD added tags in several articles that were clearly of questionable merit simply to create links to the new article. That's the ugly history of that story. Note that I didn't go around reverting HughD's edits. I tagged them as questionable because I do think they are questionable. If editors have specific article questions I can answer them in more detail. Do note that what seems like a lot of different articles are actually related by just two edit/content disagreements, the inclusion of a Mother Jones article listing "the climate change dirty dozen" and the edits to and related to Chicago-style politics page and the POV fork Chicago-style politics (meme) including the addition of questionable links to the latter at pages like Halftime in America, David Axelrod, Mitt Romney presidential campaign, 2012 and Karl Rove.

Regardless, if it will make Scoobydunk happy, I won't join in any new content disputes with HughD for at least 30 days. That should show good faith and address concerns. I still find it odd that Scoobydunk decided to post this ANI right at a time that I'm disagreeing with him in an article unrelated to HughD. Why Scoobydunk decided to posted it instead of the aggrieved also makes me think this is a content dispute. Certainly he has shown strong and vocal disagreement with myself and at least one other editor at Southern Strategy as well as earlier during the previously mentioned RfC. Springee (talk) 20:21, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

The opportunity to step back was when I first raised these issues. This is serious behavior since tendentious editing and knowingly editing tendentiously disrupts the principles of Wikipedia and the enjoyment of other editors. Wikihounding is also a serious form of harassment which is not to be taken lightly. I believe a more serious and long term admin sanction is required to cover the behavior exhibited by Springee.Scoobydunk (talk) 20:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict with above post) Sorry for breaking this up, I have been getting interrupted while putting these posts together, hence things are not as organized as I would wish. Anyway, to further my claim that this is something related to Scoobydunk using the ANI to attack me please note these WP:BATTLE posts to HughD's talk page. Scoobydunk is trying to coach HughD into feeling hounded: [128][129]. Hugh has filed a number of ANIs against other editors [130], [131],[132]. Why encourage this action against me by a third party unless there is a personal motivation given the third party is more than capable of posting the ANI himself. There was also this out of the blue attack on me in the ANI that had nothing to do with HughD (the KochTruth blogger ANI) [133]. Why make such an unrelated statement in that ANI unless your intent was somehow personal or content dispute related. Again, I think this point to an attempt to bully to resolve the content dispute related to my post earlier today. Springee (talk) 20:55, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Without commenting on the other claims in this case, this edit[134] certainly looks like an example of "let's you and him fight". --Guy Macon (talk) 21:08, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Guy Macon, I'd like to point this out as another example of Springee's tendentious editing. In the diff Macon linked to Springee says "Do not add the material again without going through the discuss part of the BOLD cycle." which is another demand requiring consensus and seems potentially threatening. Springee's attempt to turn the subject matter of this post on me is what he typically does against other editors to avoid responsibility for his actions. The real battleground behavior here is exhibited by sPringee in the form of tendentious editing and wikihounding. Suffice to say, I've well witnessed multiple examples of disruptive behavior from Springee towards other editors and offered suggestions to those abused editors on how to address the issue. It's no surprise that they haven't pursued the issue because Springee and others attempt to "shoot the messenger". This is not okay, and though Springee now attempts to levy accusations against me and my motives, none of this should take away from the harassment and disruptive editing he's exhibited on multiple occasions. Scoobydunk (talk) 21:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Why didn't you post this ANI a long time ago rather than just today when I proposed making changes you disagree with?[135] These are changes that you seem to be the lone, vocal hold out against. You could have easily posted this ANI in a more timely fashion. Would you have posted this had I not edited [Talk:Southern_strategy] this morning? Springee (talk) 21:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I've already explained this above and also gave the direct link to the edit that prompted me to raise this issue. Your edits since that last "no consensus" reversion you made are irrelevant to the fact that I've been monitoring this and have been attempting to address this behavior for some time now. I'll also note, that I have raised this issue before in other ANI posts, but it got completely ignored by admins. I've already spoken to this fact and this behavior is clearly something that shouldn't be ignored. I thought my mentioning this on other ANI reports against you would be sufficient, but since those reports have been closed with no action taken against your behavior, I'm left with no option but to raise my own ANI notice. It's quite simple really.Scoobydunk (talk) 21:45, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

So wait, you are now claiming this is a conspiracy between several editors to intimidate more than just HughD? "Suffice to say, I've well witnessed multiple examples of disruptive behavior from Springee towards other editors and offered suggestions to those abused editors on how to address the issue. It's no surprise that they haven't pursued the issue because Springee and others attempt to "shoot the messenger"." Who are these other editors and who are these other people we are intimidating? It was less than a week ago I was accused of being on the Koch brother's payroll.

Your edit that raised the issue wasn't today. You linked to quite a few edits. Which "no consensus" edit are you talking about? This one [136]? That would strongly support my view that this is an attempt to control content in [Southern Strategy]. Springee (talk) 21:56, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Nothing in my comment indicated a conspiracy and you can click the diffs supplied in the original complaint to see the different editors who you've tendentiously reverted due to "no consensus". The previous ANI notices with HughD and that Veritasvenci (SP) show you and other editors ignoring the content of the complaint to pursue accusations against the person who proposed the complaint. This doesn't suggest a "conspiracy", but there is ample evidence that editors have ignored your behavior to focus on others' behavior, and this is what I was speaking to. Also, I made a specific response to one of your comments where I outlined the specific example of your tendentious editing. You can find it here [137]. I'm not sure why I'm bothering linking it for you because it's clear you ignored it the first time to continue to pursue your red herring arguments.Scoobydunk (talk) 23:20, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

That edit was the one that broke your camel's back? Well at least that was only two days ago... unlike most of this stuff, some of which is almost a month old. But why reply just after I proposed edits on the Southern Strategy page? Your ANI and your negative reply to my proposals were just back to back. Regardless, do you think the tag I removed was proper in the case of two articles that are likely to be merged based on AFD consensus? Why add a tag to the article that is likely to be gone in less than a week or from an article which is likely to be gone in less than a week? Isn't adding that, given that consensus is clearly that one or the other will go away it's own form of tedious editing? I noticed that you are the only editor who complained about that edit. None of the involved editors objected. You are of course welcome to join the discussion if you think that tag should have remained. I think if you look into the specific histories of the edits you have cited you will find that they are not unreasonable and I do listen to group discussion and consensus. But if you think KochTruth/VeritasVincitUSA[138] was just here to build a better encyclopedia you are certainly welcome to argue that case. Springee (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not interested in discussing red herring arguments. I think it's more telling that you're attempting to justify your wikihounding and tendentious editing, instead of taking accountability for it. Even worse, you're trying to pass the blame to other editors when you say "Isn't adding that, given that consensus is clearly that one or the other will go away it's own form of tedious editing?" What other editors do is irrelevant to the fact that you're editing has been tendentious. You've been told about it, it's been previously discussed, yet you continue to do it. I'm not interested in content disputes about the tag and we're not here to discuss content disputes. Also note, I'm not complaining about any particular edit, I'm talking about behavior that is evident across multiple articles. So please stop trying to distract from that issue. Scoobydunk (talk) 02:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment The reported user wrote above: "the third party is more than capable of posting the ANI himself." From my point of view it is very clear that the reported user has singled me out, is following me, and digging into my contributions to our project in my edit history in search of articles likely on my watch list, to multiple articles, and reverting and tagging my edits. To me the reported user’s intention is very clearly to cause distress and disrupt my enjoyment of participating in our project. The reported user's stalking is accompanied by tendentious editing and personal attacks WP:WIKIHOUNDING. Whenever I attempted to address this behavior with the reported user (01:11, 12 September 2015; 11:40, 10 September 2015; 20:22, 9 September 2015; 17:19, 8 September 2015; 13:45, 8 September 2015; 13:08, 6 September 2015; 20:24, 28 August 2015) the reported user ignores me or reminds me that I have been warned and name-drops his favorite administrator 01:24, 12 September 2015. The reported user seems incapable of discussing content without discussing editors. The reported user was unsatisfied with a topic ban under Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Tea Party movement, unsatisfied with a hybrid WP:ARBTPM/Koch topic ban, and immediately following the imposition of the topic ban pursued an aggressive program of edit war baiting toward his goal of a joint WP:ARBTPM/American politics topic ban or more. When my contributions to our project dropped off in the wake of the topic ban, the reported user dove into my edit history seeking fodder for his edit war baiting, and found among others a WP:CHICAGO article I worked on in April, 2014. The reported user decided my edits of April, 2014 were without consensus and demanded that I justify the edits. The reported user is not here to work on our project; his project is me WP:NOTHERE. I felt so badly when he took his project to WP:CHICAGO article space that I apologized to my fellow project members on project talk. Respectfully request a review of the reported user's editting behavior and at a minimum an indefinite one-way interaction ban. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The reported user wrote above: "I didn't go around reverting HughD's edits." The report user pursued an aggressive project of edit war baiting across multiple articles, please see 14:18, 9 September 2015; 13:52, 9 September 2015; 10:54, 8 September 2015; 07:46, 5 September 2015; 13:04, 1 September 2015; 21:22, 28 August 2015; 00:32, 28 August 2015. That's just the first page of my notifications. More of the reported user's edit war baiting available upon request. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The reported user wrote above: "Scoobydunk is attacking me due to a content disagreement." This is a report of problem behavior, not a content dispute. The following series of edits is particularly telling in terms of demonstrating blatant edit war baiting behavior: I removed a tagged, unreferenced, irrelevant, original research sentence from a WP:CHICAGO article; minutes later, the reported user restored the content; the next day, a third party editor removed the same sentence; minutes later, the reported user thanked the third party editor at article talk. For me this exchange was particularly dispiriting. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:39, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The above are reverts after discussions were underway and related to material on the talk pages. Given your recent history of disruptive editing (your block log has 4 entries this year including edit warring) and given that your year long topic ban was due to misrepresenting facts as you were attempting to have sanctions brought against an admin, I don't think we can just assume your presentation of the material is at least somewhat self serving. It seems this is becoming a tit-for-tat discussion. That is exactly why I told Fyddlestix I was burned out and ready to take a break [139]. I agree with his last comment (though I realized I didn't actually reply to it at the time). Springee (talk) 16:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The edits above relate to your blitz to remove content that didn't support the POV fork you added to the article. I was asking only that myself and others be given the time to correct the lack of citations in the older content rather than simply blanking it. You didn't bring your disagreements to the talk page but instead made edits without discussion when it was clear myself and others were now trying to get some agreement on the article changes. The "third party editor" was Fyddlestix and again you are misrepresenting the events. The one line I restored was discussion the history of the phrase the article was about before you changed the entire article into a POV fork without a single comment on the talk page. Fyddlestix took the time to really rewrite the article to include the historic information with references. I thanked him for a whole sale rewrite of the article, not for removing or adding a single sentence. It seems very questionable to present the facts as you just did. Springee (talk) 17:04, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

HughD, you were topic banned for being less than honest in your dealing with an RAE you filed. You claimed you stepped back when in fact you were topic banned under protest [140]. I can't help but think your above post is a self serving, opportunist set of claims trying to make you look like a victim. For example, on the Chicago talk page why did you start by attacking my motives rather than justifying your edits ([141], [142],[143])? Why did you attack me instead of answer a topic based question? If you look at that talk section in general you will see that I was trying to discuss the article topic and ask why you changed it. You were trying to avoid that topic. This is hardly a case of you being a victim, instead this is you refusing to engage in a dialog about your edits. Do you think comments such as this [144] are productive or focus on the content?

Anyway, as I said in the Chicago-style politics talk page and will say again here, I'm rather tired of all of this myself and I'm happy to take a step back for a while. To avoid the look of impropriety I'm happy to stay away from any new topics you are actively involved with for at least one month. That should give both of us a welcome rest. [User:Springee|Springee]] (talk) 15:27, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:HARASS: "It is as unacceptable to harass a user ... who has been blocked, banned, or otherwise sanctioned, as it is to harass any other user." Hugh (talk) 17:43, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

But in the same section it IS considered reasonable to "Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles." and "The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason." The edits you were making were very questionable thus there was an overriding reason. I joined the MJ related articles after looking at what others, not you, were editing. The Chicago related articles were to correct the way you created a POV fork in the original article. To claim this was to hound you you need to show that your original edits to the Chicago-style politics article were reasonable. Even when asked on the talk page you never justified the whole sale change you made to the article. Thus WP:HOUND doesn't apply in that case. The same is true of the MJ case where a number of editors disagreed with you and I ended up working with another editor to try to come to a amicable solution to the problem. Springee (talk) 18:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

FALSE, reverting HughD's edits on the basis of "no consensus" is not an example of "fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles." As a matter of fact, using the reasoning of "no consensus" is actually, itself, an unambiguous violation of WP policy as per WP:TEND. So your reversions are not covered in the scope of exceptions for following a user and changing their edits and actually are part of the reason you're being reported for tendentious editing as well. Also, claiming that his edits were "questionable" is a further admission that they were not "unambiguous" because "questionable" inherently implies ambiguity and uncertainty. You also just admitted to having an overriding reason of "no consensus" which,in and of itself, is tendentious. WP:Hound clearly applies and this comment of yours only further proves it.Scoobydunk (talk) 20:58, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposed solution As a means to close this ANI out I propose a self imposed interaction ban between HughD and myself for at least a month. The only exception will be closure of the Chicago-style politics article and related page discussions. As I said to Fyddlestix I was ready for a break and this seems like the perfect time to take it. I hope that will satisfy all involved. Springee (talk) 16:26, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Solution - I believe HughD's suggestion of an interaction ban as well as a 1-3 month site ban should be sufficient in giving Springee enough time to reflect on the disruptive behavior. The interaction ban only addresses a single aspect of the issue, but ignores the fact that he's tendentiously edited against other editors. Interaction ban would be relatively minor considering that other accounts have been indefinitely banned for harassment, which is what wikihounding is. Springee has also demonstrated tendentious behavior here pertaining to not assuming good faith and accusing others of malice, both of which are outlined in WP:TEND. In just this ANI discussion thus far, Springee has implicated my motives are questionable, accused me of bullying, accused me of gaming the system, accused me of battleground mentality, accused me of levying conspiracy theories, and has accused me of having an ax to grind. Even when HughD offers his input on his feelings, Springee immediately attacks him as "self serving" and "playing the victim" instead of reflecting on the impact his own behavior has had on HughD. This is clearly not strictly about the relationship between Springee and HughD, but is clearly about Springee's tendentious editing, harassment, and attacking others instead focusing on the fact that there are over 8 diffs of his wikihounding and over 8 diffs of his tendentious editing. This requires much more than a self-imposed interaction ban.Scoobydunk (talk) 17:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree an interaction ban only partially addresses the serious behavior reported here. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:22, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

1-3 month site ban? Seriously? This again makes me think your intent is vindictive rather than anything else. WP states that blocks are not meant to punish but to protect the site. Thus if I agree to any self imposed limits and stick to them you should have no grounds on which to protest... unless your motives are vindictive. Furthermore, I provided examples of you trying to brow beat an admin with whom you had a disagreement[145]. Here was the last reply to you, "One of us is being aggressive and confrontational. It's not me. ... Guy (Help!) 22:14, 7 August 2015 (UTC)". It seems I'm not the only one who would think you are confrontational and will try to brow beat to get it your way. Since you are attacking me with this ANI I am certainly free to call your motives into question. You did the same to me when I posted an ANI unrelated to you. You also did the same TOO me when KochTruth posted an ANI to attack me that resulted in a boomerang and indefinite block. It's funny that you accuse me of not assuming good faith yet you aren't willing to do the same with respect to the edits I was making. Springee (talk) 17:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, harassment is a serious issue. Also, I didn't question your motives, I simply raised the issue of your tendentious editing and wikihounding, thinking that an admin would be responsible enough to address those serious issues. Sorry, but I'm pretty sure "good faith" becomes a non-issue when there are over 16 instances of wikihounding and tendentious editing combined. I also already explained how your self imposed interaction ban doesn't address the issue of your overall tendentious behavior and harassment.Scoobydunk (talk) 17:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

You did question my motives. When you said WP:HOUND you have to question my motives because part of the test for hounding is this "The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason.". So do you think HughD's MJ and Chicago-style politics edits were "reasonable"? Understand that you weren't involved in those discussions so you probably didn't follow their developments. My "over all tendentious behavior" is a farce. You have only three examples, weak at best, that don't relate to the topic disputes with HughD. The Southern Strategy one is clearly a content dispute with you. One is related to Koch Truth (again, are you defending his edits as valid?) and one is related to a large scale removal of content without explanation. I reversed that removal. I don't see that other editors objected (yourself included). Can you make your case on just the three edits that aren't related to HughD? Springee (talk) 18:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Nope, I never addressed your reason for wikihounding nor even spoke to your motives. I only acknowledged the fact that you were wikihounding and have supplied 8 instances of it with other editors contributing more examples. Also, tendentious editing is not a farce and if you would actually read other peoples' responses, then you'd know that trying to defend tendentious behavior is irrelevant. Just like trying to defend edit warring is irrelevant to the fact that a user was edit warring. Making tendentious reverts citing "no consensus" is a violation of WP:TEND and is disruptive editing just like edit warring is, regardless of whether you think your were right/wrong with those reverts. Again, you continue to make baseless assertions and strawman arguments instead of accepting accountability for your behavior which only further shows that you have no intention on correcting this behavior.Scoobydunk (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I would like to point out that following another editor around Wikipedia is not hounding. It's only wikihounding if you do so with the intent to repreatedly confront or inhibit the other editor's work. There is a lot of disagreement over whether Hugh's contributions have improved the articles he has worked on, or made them worse. There is nothing wrong with those in the latter camp following him around to clean up the perceived mess, as long as it's done in good faith for content-based reasons. I am not watching this page so please ping me if you want my attention.--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:32, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your broad brush assessment of my contributions to our project, I'm sure readers of this report will find your assessment helpful. I understand you would like to see me react in angry to your assessment. I understand to the reported user all my contributions are "questionable." I guess according to you my gross incompetence makes it impossible for anyone to WP:HOUND me and so it's open season on Hugh and I should just get used to it; after all, the reported user has yet to confront me with 2006 through 2013. By the way, I think I may have asked you this before, but I can't recall your answer, how many good articles do you have? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 02:09, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Please assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. This is pure straw man. I never said anything of the sort, and of course you know that. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:44, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

@ Dr. Fleischman - Thanks for your input, but the examples of wikihounding I supplied all showed Springee trying to "confront or inhibit" HughD's work. WP:HOUND does apply some caveats for fixing unambiguous errors, or small corrections, but it doesn't include tendentiously reverting someone's edits for the reason of "no consensus" or because of a disagreement about content. Sorry, but people subjectively considering his addition of reliably sourced information as a "perceived mess" is not excused by the wikihounding policy, and using a reason of "no consensus" is directly an example of tendentious editing, not to mention the repeated removal of reliably sourced information.Scoobydunk (talk) 04:41, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I did not say that Springee did or did not hound Hugh. I simply made an observation about the relevant policy since you appear to be misrepresenting it in this thread (suggesting that simply following someone around and reverting their edits is hounding, in the absence of any intent to confront or inhibit), as well as elsewhere. FWIW, I agree with you that "no consensus" is generally a bad reason for a first revert. It is one of my personal pet peeves. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:01, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

User continually reverts correct edits

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Qed237 almost exclusively makes edits on football player pages reverting the most up to date version of their appearances and goalscoring stats. He does this because other editors have updated those numbers without correcting the timestamp on the page; however, given that he knows the timestamp is incorrect, any reasonable editor would simply update that. Instead, he takes counterproductive measures to ensure that the pages continue to be outdated and incorrect. I cannot fathom why anyone would behave in this manner. Use the Divock Origi page as an example. You can scour his edit history to find similar example. It's almost ALL he does. Admins, you know as well as I do the Wikipedia struggles mightily to retain editors and attract new ones. How can we ever hope to improve that situation if people like User:Qed237 force editing to be as complex and illogical as possible? I don't think this requires any punishment. Someone in a position of authority just needs to tell him to stop. Eightball (talk) 23:02, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment - while I think the person above seems to have a contentious relationship with the reportee, I do think that User:Qed237 isn't necessarily adhering to the principals of WP:ONLYREVERT - i.e. there seems to be lack of assumption of good faith, and a default to reverting as a first resort rather than a last resort, such as [146][147][148]. The intention is probably good, but I think this user is perhaps a little over-zealous with the reverting. --  R45  ^talk! 23:21, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

I absolutely accept that I have not handled this well so far. It is an immensely frustrating situation but I should have reacted more calmly. Eightball (talk) 23:25, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• Reverting good faith updates is arguably not the best course of action, especially if Qed237 can simply contact the updaters to simply ask them to correct the timestamp. However, just in my casual observations, keeping the stats in these types of articles correct, consistent and up to date is a constant and incredibly frustrating crusade in itself. A veritable hodgepodge of editors inserting formatting errors, premature or incomplete updates, vandalism, mistakes, falsehoods, and original research. If he's trying to keep these articles in a somewhat reputable state, updates that change correct information without updating the timestamp, albeit in good faith, are rendering articles incorrect in what they're reporting. It's perfectly understandable if he feels that slightly outdated but uniformly correct information is preferable to confusing and/or incorrect information. Also, he's not wrong. Do what you're supposed to do and update the timestamp, and this issue doesn't even exist. You can't expect Qed to magically know what the correct timestamp for any given update would be, so between leaving the article incorrect and reverting to a correct version, the choice is obvious. I don't see any good faith discussion about a reasonable alternative solution. Swarm ♠ 01:29, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @Swarm: Agree completely on the challenges of keeping stats reputable if folks update them without synchronizing the dates, however edits like this [149] where I'd suggest the revert was not done in good faith as it was clear from the comment what date it was based on. In that specific case, I think a revert was unnecessary and Wikipedia:Editing_policy#Try_to_fix_problems would suggest simply fixing versus reverting would have been more appropriate. Another example (and the reason I was drawn to this) were these two reverts done within a 24 hour period for the same content by 2 different users: [150][151] (that was a venue for a future game, not stats) - in that case, I think based on WP:BURDEN, considering that venues are not always cited in these articles (including a venue in the same article), the reverts were a little over-zealous and could have been handled differently. I'll say though that I appreciate the WP:FOOTBALL can be a difficult place to edit and maintain, so I do understand how someone can probably go a little overboard considering how frequent some of the hasty/unsourced edits are in that area can be very frustrating. --  R45  ^talk! 02:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  I myself have noticed this behaviour from Qed237... I think Qed just needs to slow down and consider his reverts, as has undoubtedly been reverting many good edits because the "timestamp" was not correct. JMHamo (talk) 09:44, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  Agree with JMHamo here. It's the same work just updating the timestamp. I know it's frustrating but it makes it easier. Just update it yourself and talk to the editors in question. If that does not help, seek help. But that kind of reverting is, for me, headscratching. Kante4 (talk) 10:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Now that I have had some sleep and time I can try and give my view of this step by step form what has been written above. First off all am I perfect? No I am not, I am human like everyone else. About the allegation that almost all my edits are reverting caps and goals, that is false (and probably written in rage). Football articles are heavily exposed to vandalism due to a lot of different fans and the nature of rivalries between clubs. Due to the high level of vandalism I update my watchlist when I am not currently doing something else and I revert a lot of detected vandalism, and for that reason it may look like I revert way to much when I in fact just revert vandalism. I do a lot of other work as well and I am one of the editors heavily involved in the creation of Module:Sports table and update a lot of templates to this new module and maintain those, as well as other work (not only reverting).

User:Eightball brought up the Divock Origi page as an example and this edit I reverted because I was tired of correcting the editor when he has done this before and has been notified about timestamps. This is a good example of how editors has been notified, but still keeps on doing the same thing and seeing this over nad over again is frustrating. Even with hidden comments the same editors continue (some has been blocked). I usually did update the timestamp myself, but I guess the feeling of having to correct after the same editors over and over again became to tiring.

Also I would like to explain the diffs from User:R45.

1. [152] was probably one of my less good reverts. Many times I have seen these stadiums being changed back and forth, so I wanted a source (adding it in edit summary would have been enough), but as I said, probably not the best revert.
2. [153] also not the best revert, I should have explained it to the editor, I simply confused this editor with an other editor that had been notified.
3. [154] this revert I still think is good. The matches are never shown when there is a list of matches below and the editor I reverted had not made a single good edit and has been reverted by many other editors after edits like this, this, this and this. All of those edits can be seen as delibirate changing to factual errors when changing results, tables and team names to something completely wrong.

Finally I just want to say that many editors has recieved messages but continues to ignore timestamps anyway (some has eventually been blocked) and seeing this issue every day is frustrating. I can understand that new editors and/or IPs can miss updating it, but not editors that has been aware of the situation and not when there is hidden comments. I have once brought up the idea of an WP:EDITNOTICE do add on articles with this issue (just like I created Template:Livescores editnotice for articles with a lot of live updates) but did not get much response other than "we would need to add it on a lot of articles".

If you have more questions feel free to ask me and I will try and respond. Qed237 (talk) 12:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

He's still doing this. I thought we made it clear here that this was counterproductive behavior. I went to his talk page and apologized for the way I acted initially and kindly asked that he stop reverting correct caps/goals and instead actually contribute by correcting the timestamps. He completely ignore this. I don't what other recourse can be taken by regular users. Eightball (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• @Swarm:, you fail to understand that knowing the timestamp is wrong requires knowing what the correct timestamp is. That's basic logic. You need to step in and intervene here. People like this guy are quite literally killing Wikipedia. Are you SERIOUSLY going to do nothing? How can you be so naive? Eightball (talk) 23:52, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

If Swarm will not take action then we need to know what other recourses are available and what other administrators are around. This is unacceptable behavior. Eightball (talk) 23:57, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• The only reason I got involved to begin with was because you pitched this as blatant wrongdoing and I was fully prepared to take action against Qed if necessary. However, reviewing the situation, his actions aren't nearly as malicious or disruptive as you're making them out to be and his position is hardly unreasonable. I certainly don't think it warrants administrative intervention. Could he go about it a different way to appease you? Perhaps, but he's not required to just because you don't agree with his methods. His concern is pretty direct and easily rectifiable. Keep in mind that reverted edits are always preserved in the article's history and can be easily restored once the easily-fixed concern is addressed. I think you're exaggerating the severity of the problem here. This is about maintaining an encyclopedia, not executing social justice, and Qed seems to have the former point in mind whereas you appear to be more focused on the latter. There's plenty of other admins around who are of course more than free to disagree with me, but you're not likely to be taken seriously when your approach is to flame war and personally attack other editors. Swarm ♠ 05:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Seems like a new quick explanation is needed. Yesterday I was reverting User:Ptfcfan who continues to ignore timestamps despite recieving messages how to update the timestamps and the editor even has a block for failing to update them (disruptive). I did not have the time to look up correct timestamp on all of those articles, but Ptfcfan did not update them on any article so I reverted all of his recent updates. User:Eightball clearly then followed me around and reverted me and in the process clearly re-added the false stats without updating the timestamp himself. All this discussion has been about that I should update the timestamp instead of reverting so why did he not do it himself? He did not update the timestamp despite the fact that he knows about it. All I did was to remove incorrect info as Garry O'Connor did not have 33 caps by 29 March 2015. Then he finisherd of with this inappropriate message on my talkpage calling me a "troll" and saying that "I will not rest until you have been punished or banned". That behaviour is not acceptable in any way, and it is very hard to take someone serious after those kind of messages. User:Eightball is digging himself a hole and as User:Swarm says " you're not likely to be taken seriously when your approach is to flame war and personally attack other editors". Qed237 (talk) 12:28, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Swarm: Then how can this issue be escalated? My concern IS maintaining an encyclopedia, with the most up to date and accurate information possibly. As I have said many times by now, Qed237 is knowingly reverting to incorrect information, when he is FULLY CAPABLE of simply adding the correct information, solely out of malice. How can you possible believe this to be acceptable? Eightball (talk) 12:35, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

And I frankly don't care if you don't like me or don't take me seriously. This isn't about me, this is about Qed237, and if you cannot see the objectively true fact that he has a net negative impact on this website, then I have nothing more to say to you. Someone else needs to get involved. Eightball (talk) 12:37, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Your attitude towards this situation is counterproductive. I don't see how this issue can be resolved in a mutually satisfactory fashion if you dig in your heels on the issue of Qed237 being punished or rebuked or made to change his ways. Qed237's approach of reverting without correcting may not be the best approach, but if you follow him around reverting him, then you are doing exactly the same thing. Gamaliel (talk) 12:47, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

He NEEDS to change his ways. The End. If no one will tell him to stop, what other recourse do I have? I cannot sit idly by and let someone do nothing but make pages worse. Could you? If the admins won't take action then I will have to. I tried to bring this up in WikiProject Football, in the hope that it wouldn't have to come to this, but he reverted all of my changes to the project talk page! Eightball (talk) 13:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

And I haven't once asked that he be punished. I am asking what seems to me to be an extremely simple request: as an admin, as a person with authority, ask him to stop, and ask him to instead dedicate his time to making real contributions. Eightball (talk) 13:11, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

You haven't asked, but you have stated that punishment is your goal. [155] Meanwhile, the burning question is what, exactly, is preventing you from putting in the time stamps? Choor monster (talk) 15:34, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment I'd like to remove myself from this discussion. I know I chimed in earlier regarding the lack of good faith in some of the reverts, but I don't think this ANI is going in a constructive direction. This looks more like a personal dispute between the two parties. --  R45  ^talk! 13:34, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I've handled tit-for-tat AIV reports from these two editors so the dispute is continuing. Eightball, your statement above is easily disproved [156] and your blind reversions are more unhelpful than Qed237's, Qed237 just to be clear so we can move forward, is it going to be your practice to automatically revert stat updates that have incorrect timestamps? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:35, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh yeah I forgot about that statement. In my defense, it was made after the admins here had seemingly decided to do absolutely nothing to fix this obvious problem, and thus continue Wikipedia's slow decline into irrelevancy. Eightball (talk) 13:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Additionally, you guys keep saying this is a personal dispute...how can you not see the bigger picture? Editors like Qed237 actively drive away new editors. They make it difficult to contribute and they make it immediately apparent that Wikipedia is a labyrinth of bureaucracy that is designed, intentionally or otherwise, to focus power on the editors who have been here for years, who have created policy, and to prevent outsiders and new ideas from encroaching on their precious turf. It's embarrassing. Eightball (talk) 13:47, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Eightball, why aren't you reverting Qed237's reverts and correcting the info? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:52, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@NeilN: He did here but without updating the timestamp himself, thus delibirate adding incorrect information to a BLP as he know 33 caps was not true as of 29 March 2014 and he knew timestamp should be updated but he did not do it. It confuses me how he tells me to update timestamp, when he can not do it himself. As an expression I have heard "Don't throw bricks when you live in a glass house" or "Pot calling the kettle black". Qed237 (talk) 15:20, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@NeilN: Are you joking? You won't tell Qed237 not to make incorrect reverts in the first place, but you will suggest that I could follow his activity and correct every mistake he intentionally makes? Again...you are not thinking about how to be most productive. Eightball (talk) 15:26, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Eightball, his reverts aren't mistakes. Changing "7 goals, 3 assists as of Dec 31, 2014" to "10 goals, 4 assists as of Dec 31, 2014" is factually wrong. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hoax hockey articles and an inappropriately granted Reviewer right

Patrickkane88 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Philip Ngo (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Mathew Tran (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
For the administrators' consideration: Patrickkane88 is a recently new user who requested the WP:REVIEWER right a mere two days after creating their account. In a decision which I find stunning, it was granted by Swarm.

The user has come to my attention through what I interpret as a malformed request to semiprotect a page made via edit request here. The page is one which was tagged with {{blp-prod}} by Crystallizedcarbon, which Patrickkane88 removed without adding any sources two minutes later. It was also tagged for speedy deletion for being a hoax (the player does not seem to exist) but the tag was removed by an IP which I may be about to get into an edit war with over my having restored the blp-prod tag, and which has only edited articles which Patrickkane88 has also edited. In very briefly skimming their edit history, I also found Mathew Tran, another entirely unreferenced hockey bio about a player not listed on the roster of the team he supposedly plays for, and have tagged it accordingly. It could be a WP:G3 hoax but I'm not sure if it crosses the "blatant" threshold.

Clearly, this editor does not understand the biographies of living persons policy, a requirement of the reviewer right, or they are blatantly disregarding it, and as such I request that their reviewer right be revoked immediately. Conduct issues can likely be dealt with through discussion/mentoring with the user, but they should not be reviewing in the meantime. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 02:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• A couple of points:

• "who requested the WP:REVIEWER right a mere two days after creating their account" - This is not accurate.
• Pending changes is meant to be given out fairly liberally and I don't think I missed any glaring red flags in granting their request, however, I'm only human and of course I am perfectly open to feedback on any admin actions so that I may improve. I have received absolutely no feedback and I think it's poor form to lambaste somebody for an action without ever making an attempt to discuss a concern with them or reach a modicum of understanding.
• If the user is creating/inserting hoaxes, they need to be blocked indefinitely without question. Whether or not this is the case needs to be sorted out.
• If they've merely demonstrated a good faith lack of policy understanding and not malicious intent, I would of course support revocation of reviewer until they can demonstrate that the problems are rectified. However, I will point out that they are not, and never have been, using the reviewer permission. Swarm ♠ 02:38, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oh, you're right, I didn't check that well. They created their account on 17 July and requested reviewer rights on 19 August. I also didn't diff the request properly, which I have fixed. Swarm, I sincerely apologize for this error, and heartily retract the suggestion of wrongdoing on your part (which I had thought was an honest mistake, never deliberate misconduct). Anyway, I had meant to raise Patrickkane88's conduct, not yours, and ANI is the place to raise userright issues. I have struck part of my edit but it leaves it awkward to do more; you may strike more if you like.

That being said, it has become evident that the articles they created are indeed blatant hoaxes, as another user has remarked (see edit summary) that Mathew Tran is a student at their school. So yes, I would support an indef block at this point. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 03:07, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Understood, stand by, let me do some double checking. Swarm ♠ 03:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I've deleted the hoaxy articles. The other articles about junior league hockey players have now been tagged for WP:A7 speedy deletion. I have also revoked their reviewer rights and placed an "only warning" notice for creating inappropriate pages on their talk page. (It doesn't appear there was ever given a final warning notice.). So further disruption on their part will result in an indefinite block. Thanks for raising the issue, Ivanvector. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 03:22, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I've deleted the A7 tags and also Mathew Tran as a hoax as well. The name was added to a school article by an IP as clear vandalism and was changed multiple times before finally representing an alleged hockey player. No record of his existence can be found by me either and it was removed by a user claiming that he's a student at that school and not a hockey player. This is concerning as it suggests that apart from creating non-notable unsourced BLPs in good faith, that this user is dabbling in vandalizing Wikipedia as well. Whether or not this is the case, there's definitely a problem here. The bad page creations, lack of sourcing in BLPs, and complete lack of collaboration or communication are all red flags, even if every action they've made was in good faith. A warning is fine, but I agree that this user should not get more rope after this. Good catch, Ivan, thanks for bringing this up. In hindsight the granting the reviewer request was a bit too generous :P. I'll try to keep an eye on them too but let me know if there's any issues in the future. Swarm ♠ 03:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

 Question:  : Before tagging the the page as a blatant hoax I had to do some digging. I decided to do so because the page looked suspicious and the author removed the prod by adding three references that seem reliable but did not mention the BLP. I could not find any sources, (just a small questionable mention) the main reason that I tagged it as G3 was that when I followed the wikilinks to the claimed championships won, the alleged player was not even in any of the three roasters listed for those winning teams. I explained this in the edit summary when I tagged it. At that point there was no reasonable doubt that the article was a hoax.

• Is unquestionable hoax equivalent to blatant hoax?
• Since I had to "dig a bit" to verify the hoax does that mean that it does not qualify as blatant?
• Should I just have removed the invalid references and restored the prod even though I knew for certain it was a Hoax?

In my humble opinion, if there is clear proof of a hoax (even if this proof is not intermediately evident by a quick look at the article) then G3 should apply, otherwise we give the author the satisfaction of having the hoax as an article at our encyclopedia for at least one week. If that is not what the current wording of the policy is saying, perhaps it should be discussed and clarified and then edited in either way.

I would appreciate the input of more experienced editors on this matter to help me decide how I should deal with similar cases in the future. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Good question. If anyone would like to move this bit over to WT:CSD that would be fine. In my experience, the CSD tags should only be used when it is very clear that an article will be deleted and there is no need to wait for discussion. In terms of G3, I interpret "blatant" as "the article clearly states that it is a hoax", more or less. I guess that's more of a personal standard, since when it was clearly shown that the articles were hoaxes, they were deleted under G3. Perhaps it is worth clarifying the text in the criterion. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 13:07, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

@User:Crystallizedcarbon When reviewing G3 hoax tags, my approach is to check whether the alleged misinformation is obviously incorrect and is not credible. (For example, the Ricky Yang (football) article stated he was ‘’currently’’ a college football quarterback who played for the Canadian national team, yet the birthdate was for a 15-year-old kid. That set off bells. A quick check revealed no such player on either team roster. And that moved it into obvious misinformation territory.) I appreciate when the tagger specifies the nature of the hoax in the edit summary or on the talk page so that I can confirm their suspicions. But like any CSD deletion, common sense and experience play a role in determining the difference between suspicious and obvious. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 14:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer @CactusWriter: That is exactly how I think it should be interpreted. And what I did in this case, it was clearly a hoax since by looking at the roasters it was clear that the BLP was not even a player for those teams. I did include the explanation in the edit summary. I will continue to use the same criteria, but I also understand Ivanvector argument that a literal interpretation of the current wording for the G3 policy could be interpreted to impose a stronger standard and maybe it should be reworded to include not just blatant, but also unambiguous hoaxes. Thank you again and best regards.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 15:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Putting details in the edit summary is a good idea. At the moment G3 is not one of the criteria which Twinkle allows adding a note to. I'll post a note about changing that. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Patrickkane88 has also edited under the IP 64.114.223.82, (here) and also inserted the names of these fake individuals to other articles (here and here)- although these were all before his last warning from User: CactusWriter. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 13:37, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

On edit: He's also capable of making helpful edits, for what it's worth... _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 13:41, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the edits by Patrickkane88 seem to be a mixed bag -- vandalism with some good edits -- which is the reason I didn't block the account outright without sufficient warning. It's clear that we're dealing with a youthful editor. They can now either demonstrate the maturity required or be blocked indefinitely. — CactusWriter ^(talk) 14:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I also note the editor hasn't come here to discuss it, despite being notified and pinged. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 15:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Unless there are some that I can't see because they've been deleted, it looks like all of their "bad" edits came in the past couple days after a brief break in editing. They're in the same topic area so I don't think compromised account. Probably inexperience as CactusWriter says. Let's see how their editing goes from now on. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Personally, this matter is quite one-sided; both parties involved have violated the WP:NPOV criteria, and have made insensitive remarks to one-another. Another fact, is neither side is willing to accept that the criticism, and edits, respectively were delivered in good faith (meaning they refuse to follow WP:AGF). A person, prior to myself, also mentioned that WP:ARBMAC2 already governed criteria specific to the argument in question, and both side refused to drop it still. However, both sides have backed down, so is this notice still necessary? - ExParte ^{talk | contribs} 02:05, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

190.6.236.60's Editing Conduct

Initially an AIV report, the issue seems to be bordering on "vandalism" and AGF. Moving issue to WP:ANI seems like the optimal solution, all other participants of the conversation are being pinged @R45: @The Earwig: to notify regarding new location of the discussion. Please see below for the initial WP:ANI report posed by R45 and comments following by Earwig and myself, JustBerry:

• 190.6.236.60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) User is making disruptive edits now, and has been for 2 months on topics relating to Nikki Minaj (i.e. going through articles where refer to her as American, and changing it to Trinidadian). Several dozen edits today already that have been reverted. --  R45  ^talk! 03:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: On Beam Me Up Scotty (mixtape) (diff): vandalism after final warning. User came on IRC to try to resolve the issue, did not wish to accept any advice regarding WP:Sources or WP:Consensus, i.e. talk page discussion. User:Dragonflysixtyseven attempted to resolve the dispute by removing the nationality all together, yet IP still added the disputed nationality. User excessively swearing in IRC. It should be noted that no discussion was pursued on any article talk page prior to making these changes. JustBerry (talk) 03:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @JustBerry: Some edits are/were just pure vandalism from a month ago [157][158][159] but unfortunately in areas that are less patrolled - I just spent nearly an hour going through his/her July-August edits and cleaning up articles --  R45  ^talk! 03:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: I started doing the same; however, I'm currently speaking with the user on IRC. The user does not wish to abide by the Wikipedia guidelines and policies we, i.e. helpers in the channels, have presented them with. The helpers have also tried to break it down for the IP editor, but the helpee doesn't seem to wish to listen. If you want, we can work on this project together off-WP:AIV. --JustBerry (talk) 03:58, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  Declined. Content dispute. Remember WP:AGF and do not call good-faith edits vandalism – it is very discouraging to new editors. — Earwig ^talk 04:07, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: The issue is currently being resolved over IRC on an AGF basis. Withholding AIV report for now. Quite frankly, this would most likely not have been assumed had the user not come on IRC. In any event, efforts are being now to create a discussion for the content dispute on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Trinidad_and_Tobago or on specific article talk pages, of which the former would probably be the best right now. --JustBerry (talk) 04:13, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @JustBerry: Frankly this is pure vandalism especially within the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Trinidad_and_Tobago space, and I'll just leave non-T&T edits as is because this is far too time consuming to monitor and address. --  R45  ^talk! 04:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: A potential block would most likely fall under the category of edit warring. However, since the user proactively came onto IRC to resolve the issue, AGF can be assumed, as long as a sufficient discussion of the content dispute is done on an article talk page or WP: user talk space of some sort, i.e. WikiProjects. --JustBerry (talk) 04:20, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: Would you mind explaining how this is "pure vandalism"? — Earwig ^talk 04:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @The Earwig: This edit [160] (changing the land mass of a country) is just disruptive. This edit [161] and [162] changing the ethnic population stat, especially of "white" Trinidadian to 13% (when it is actually 1%, as per the source) would be the equivalent of editing the United States page and changing Blacks to be 50% of the population (i.e. it's ridiculous and absolutely not good faith - the ip traces to Trinidad the user would know better). Frankly if you look through the user's edit history, it's either disruptively manipulating stats, inserting Nikki Minaj into every article possible, and spinning articles to slant pro-Trinidadian (i.e. repeatedly removing references to "American" from Trinidad-Born Americans) is not good faith. There are over 100 of these similar edits. --  R45  ^talk! 04:34, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  Thanks for the response. I admit ignorance of those particular edits; I was only aware of the ones involving Nicki Minaj's nationality. That seems like a debatable subject from my uninformed view: calling her American only does seem possibly misleading due to e.g. this source; see discussion on the talk page. — Earwig ^talk 04:42, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @The Earwig: Putting "Trinidadian-American" or "Trinidad-born American" is definitely understandable. However the IP user was actively involved in removing references to American from all her album pages and other artistes [163] - seeing the trend, my assumption of good faith ended there. --  R45  ^talk! 04:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: @The Earwig: User:Earwig has confirmed that he is going to sleep now on IRC. Requesting another sysop to bring some closure to this report. Multiple additional diffs have been made by the user post-reporting the situation to AIV. On IRC, when asked to justify this diff, user responded "It is reffered to as that by many countries worldwide." User followed up by saying "To be honest, I don't know how to get the sources and references done to articles just yet, It's still a learning process to me." It seems like AGF doesn't seem like a bad conclusion for now; however, the IP may still need to be monitored by a few editors to make sure further content disputes/edit wars across multiple articles related to Nicky Minaj don't happen at this large scale again, as the user appears to be anxious to make edits directly to the article mainspace without sufficient (any) discussion on article talk pages. Interestingly enough, however, this seems to be a previous discussion relating to this content dispute. I'm considering moving the discussion to WP:ANI. What do you think? --JustBerry (talk) 04:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @Swarm: Pinging Swarm for input, most recently active sysop at ANI currently. --JustBerry (talk) 05:07, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  Just to note the user User:PositiveEM looks awfully similar to the IP users referenced above based on the edit history. --  R45  ^talk! 20:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: Then perhaps a resolution on proceeding to SPI needs to be made as well. --JustBerry (talk) 20:20, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

   Comment: @R45:For those reading the ANI report, it should be noted that the user was reported to WP:AIV once again for this despite last warning. No action taken yet, resolution for the editor's editing behavior should be formulated. --JustBerry (talk) 02:12, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

   Additional Comment @R45: Have you noticed any additional accounts that may possibly be linked to the user? The usage of multiple accounts is not a claimable issue for an SPI case, as users are permitted to login and logout of their accounts and edit from their IPs instead. However, if both users are disruptively editing, both users can be blocked. --JustBerry (talk) 02:20, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

  I've taken a look at the users edits following a report to AIV and I've blocked them for 31 hours. To me, the edits were starting to become disruptive.--5 albert square (talk) 02:37, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

  I've also looked at the PositiveEM account and I believe it is the same editor. Therefore I have changed the block and disabled logged in users using that IP. That should resolve the issue but I've also added PositiveEM to my Watchlist just in case.--5 albert square (talk) 02:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: @5 albert square: Thanks. I'm also not entirely sure whether there might be socks related to that account/IP - we'll have to look out for similar editing patterns for that as well. --JustBerry (talk) 09:47, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

  @JustBerry: @5 albert square: Judging by the edit history between the two accounts, they did appear to be socks as the IP editor resumed editing after the user account was blocked. However it also looks like the user has stopped the disruptive edits (at least since September 16th) so perhaps he/she has decided to be a little more patient and constructive with edits going forward. --  R45 </font*::::::::> ^talk! 13:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

  @R45: Quite frankly, I just happen to come by the edit yesterday via STiki. Looks like 5 albert square and I will keep an eye, and I assume you will to. If something comes up, I think what would be best moving forward is pinging the main participants, so we're all in the loop. --JustBerry (talk) 20:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Closure needed of "COI editing and personal attacks on Democracy & Nature and Talk:Democracy & Nature"

The above thread Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#COI editing and personal attacks on Democracy & Nature and Talk:Democracy & Nature has now been open for three weeks and grown pretty huge. The case, however, is actually rather simple. Either the accused persons are correct with their claim that I am biased and harassing them. As I am an admin, that is an absolutely intolerable situation and calls for an immediate block (and de-syssopping, I think, so I will ask a bureaucrat to remove the bit, if this is going to be the outcome). Alternatively, my accusation that these SPA editors engage in COI editing and impermissible personal attacks is correct, in which case a block of them would be in order. I call on an uninvolved admin to close the thread either way. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 09:12, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Renewing request. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 05:16, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Either ... or Nope. Please see Wikipedia:First_Law#not_zero_sum. Read the read of the essay. Then let it go. The fact you went back and forth for days bickering with the other guys and there wasn't a lot of effort by anyone else to step in is an answer in itself. NE Ent 09:34, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Read again, I don't think I bickered and I was very concise. And I'm very sorry, but I don't take attacks on my integrity very lightly. I don't think the same could be said about "the other guys" as you call them. And several non-admins commented, too, so I don't think this was ignored. But as I wrote above, I request that somebody closes this, so feel free to close whatever way you think is just. Thanks. --Randykitty (talk) 21:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Non-admin comment. There are so far as I can see three options here. One is for Randykitty to be sanctioned for misconduct, possibly up to and including losing the bit. I find that option not at all supported by the situation, as someone who had comment earlier.

The second is for the others to be sanctioned. I have supported that myself above, although I can imagine some might want to keep it a few days longer, maybe up to the weekend, to allow further input, considering this new related thread has been opened.

The last is to do nothing. Under the circumstances, considering that there is at least a question of admin misconduct, possibly worthy of de-sysopping if true, I can't see that as being acceptable either. If Randykitty has misbehaved to the extent that loss of adminship is called for, then we should know that as soon as possible. So I very very strongly support the review of the matter by an uninvolved admin soon. John Carter (talk) 16:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Graphic imagery

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This user page contains an inappropriate photograph and should be removed - see(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sexynudesuploaded). I was looking for userboxes at the time and thought that the user was just calling themselves this for fun, or at the very least they took up an interest in pornography, but never in a million years would I have thought that they would upload such a personal image. I don't have pornographic images on my user page and I never will! However if this is considered okay because they own the image, then I guess other users can upload photos of body mutilation and/or beheadings!

From an absolutely disgusted user,

Yours angrily

User:Kő Cloch (talk) 12:44, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Just so I'm clear, you visited the user page of someone called "Sexynudesuploaded" and were surprised and angry to find that they had uploaded nudity? GRAPPLE ^X 11:57, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The user has been indef'd blocked for WP:NOTHERE Wildthing61476 (talk) 12:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

We better archive the pics though. You know. For science. Timothyjosephwood (talk) 14:41, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Remember Wikipedia is Not Censored  :) KoshVorlon We are all Kosh 15:38, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

My ass it's not censored.Anythingyouwant (talk) 16:21, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:NOTCENSORED applies only to articles. BMK (talk) 14:45, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rangeblock?

Any chance a rangeblock could be made to stop these socks of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Justa Punk?

• 121.220.23.33 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 1.136.96.73 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 1.136.97.1 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 1.136.97.67 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• 1.136.97.44 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

These are the IPs I've blocked in the last week. As a complete layman when it comes to rangeblocks, it looks like the last four at least are very similar and a narrow rangeblock would cover them? If there would be too much collateral, that's fine, but I thought it was worth asking. Also feel free to move this to AN if that's the more appropriate venue, I wasn't sure where to ask exactly. Jenks24 (talk) 12:33, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• All Telstra IPs from Melbourne. The last four are a /22 range, or just over 1,000 addresses, probably a little too big to rangeblock. Can somebody run the collateral damage tool and point to it for me? I've lost the bookmark somehow. KrakatoaKatie 18:38, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
  • The one that works is at https://tools.wmflabs.org/xtools/rangecontribs/. It looks to me like this is a busy little range, with unacceptable collateral damage. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:47, 15 September 2015 (UTC) By the way it's Range 1.136.96.0/23 (covers 512 IP addresses) -- Diannaa (talk) 18:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
    • Just a note that the very first post on ANI above talks about rangeblocking more or less all of Melbourne for the continued stalking and online threats to @Huldra:. The first address in the list falls within that same range. The last 4 may well become part of what is likely the biggest range block ever (if it comes to pass, there's an ongoing discussion on Jimbo's talk page about this). Blackmane (talk) 23:26, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the answers. Guess I'll just keep playing whack-a-mole with the the IPs. Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 03:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Complaint against administrator

moved this to align with a related ANI posting. Blackmane (talk) 04:40, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

There is I believe a major problem on the following page;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFL_siren_controversy

Recently I attempted to re-add an incident that had been removed by User Jenks24. I believe this incident is notable and relevant to the article and it is sourced;

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=AFL_siren_controversy&type=revision&diff=680899455&oldid=680823890

I labeled it vandalism and also left a warning on his talk page;

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jenks24&diff=prev&oldid=680899830

I also sought consensus for it on the AFL project page;

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Australian_rules_football&diff=prev&oldid=680900482

Jenks24 reverted all three edits and blocked my IP for 31 hours. He has also protected the AFL siren controversy page preventing any IP correction of his vandalism. In my most recent action I attempted to file an edit request on the talk page concerned, only for Jenks24 to remove it and ban the IP yet again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAFL_siren_controversy&type=revision&diff=681141101&oldid=681137728

I state that I am not a banned user of any description and I believe that Jenks24 is simply using this as an excuse to justify his actions. There should be a consensus established and he has prevented this from occurring. I ask that he be warned for this conduct and that the edit be restored, and/or the consensus seeking edit be restored on the AFL project page. I believe he is disrupting the proper operation of Wikipedia with his actions. I am of the firm opinion that the edit should stay for the reasons I gave on the AFL project page. I note that I am required to notify Jenks24 of this report, but I am hesitant to do so as I believe he will react with another removal and block. Once someone else comes on I would welcome them to make that notification and enforce the retaining of this report. I leave this in the capable hands of other editors for appropriate action. 1.136.96.33 (talk) 03:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

@1.136.96.33: You must notify a user that you are discussing them when you post here. That's what the GIANT orange notice is about when you edit this page. I will do it for you in this case: @Jenks24: (also diff). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 03:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the notification, Nihonjoe. This is just another sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Justa Punk. See also the section slightly above, #Rangeblock?, which is about the same person. WP:RBI. Jenks24 (talk) 03:52, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

My IP has changed as it does quite frequently. Jenks24 is again attempting to divert attention from the core issue, and I note that the above IP has again been blocked. I am not a sock of the banned user, and Jenks24 has failed to prove conclusively that I am. The 121 IP noted above is also not me. WP:RBI does not apply because I am not a vandal. I am attempting to add reasonable information and Jenks24 is refusing to address said information. In other words his actions as a result of my report justifies my complaint. What is he afraid of with the addition of the information to the AFL siren controversy? I ask for another editor for a review of this matter and to please ignore Jenks24's unproven tack of distraction, and if Jenks24 blocks this IP my complaint's justification will be re-enforced. 1.136.96.219 (talk) 04:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I am not allowing this to be closed for the reasons given, because the assertion is not proven. The assertion is disruptive and it would appear that Jenks24 isn't the only administrator not willing to address to content issue. I repeat - I am not a sock of any description and I at least request in this section a full explanation including irrefutable proof of the allegations made. I refuse to be blocked from editing on false and offensive grounds and apparent attacks of paranoia. I require more proof than that and I believe that I entitled to the benefit of the doubt until then at least. This constant "game of whack-a-mole" needs to stop and the matter resolved properly. 1.136.97.48 (talk) 08:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• Definitely block evasion going on here. The content was added back in 2008 (diff) by Check User blocked AFL-Cool (talk · contribs), a sockpuppet of Justa Punk. Also, the sources cannot be checked, as they are books (though some searching turns up some supporting, but by no means reliable, sources). You can try finding support for it on the talkpage of the article, but I doubt you'd find much recognition. (Someone else want to close this now?) -- Orduin ^Discuss 20:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Several points. First, that information is seven years old and can hardly stand up in the mists of time. I note from the Justa Punk investigation page that he stated that one other account was another person using his computer. He later moved to public terminals in libraries, which he could well have been doing at that time as well, and AFL Cool may have been editing from the same terminal and could have been a harmless victim. Unlike me he or she chose not to fight the label for whatever the reason. Side point; Justa Punk is a professional wrestling sock puppeteer. I have never edited any part of that subject on Wikipedia. Second, I have already attempted twice to gain a consensus and have been blocked and reverted on sight by Jenks24 - the core reason why I brought this here to begin with. Third, the sources are in fact newspapers and not books and if you'll check the talk page of the siren controversy they were verified by User Hesperian through Factiva. Fourth, the edit in it's original form (as I was able to work out from the page history) stayed for five years unchallenged until someone removed it over it being a junior match - which is a poor reason for removal as the rules are the same in junior and senior and were applied the same. Fifth (and last) WP:DENY does not apply to me. It applies to Jenks24 because he is the one preventing a consensus from being sought and therefore is the one disrupting the encyclopaedia's rightful operation. (I have $1000 bet on this IP being wrongly blocked as well by Jenks24). 1.136.97.125 (talk) 21:45, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

History of unsourced content by an IP

• 69.248.93.249 (talk · contribs)

Apparently hundreds of edits since June, adding unsourced content and personal interpretations to multiple articles. I'm sure they're meant to be constructive, but many are trivial and it appears that nothing has been connected to a reference of any kind. If that's the case, a broad reversion of the IP's edits may be appropriate. 2601:188:0:ABE6:5DC5:559E:75C4:C241 (talk) 13:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• I reverted some of their edits. Yes, much of it unverified and trivial. Also, competence is required, and that certainly includes English-language competence. Drmies (talk) 17:23, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  Thank you, Drmies. I suspect it all can go. Much appreciated. 2601:188:0:ABE6:5DC5:559E:75C4:C241 (talk) 20:33, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

  By the way, this may be the same user--as is often the case, there may be more where these come from. 2601:188:0:ABE6:5DC5:559E:75C4:C241 (talk) 20:48, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• 100.35.22.145 (talk · contribs)
  • Hmm. I looked at a half a dozen of their edits, and they're not bad. Drmies (talk) 01:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

  Nope. They have the same predilection for unsourced factoids [164]; [165]; [166]; [167]; [168]. I'm reasonably sure it's the same editor, but even if I'm wrong, the edits have the same problems. 2601:188:0:ABE6:5DC5:559E:75C4:C241 (talk) 02:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Shahzada Mohiuddin

I placed a picture in the article Shahzada Mohiuddin. The image shows the man described, being interviewed. Through several ip addresses, all starting with 182.18... (probably located in Pakistan), this picture has been removed seven times, everytime without any explanation. I'm fed up with it, but what should be done? I posted a comment on yesterday's ip talk page, but it didn't work. Apdency (talk) 17:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• It's irritating, but the image is tagged as "missing evidence of permission" (Future Perfect at Sunrise's handiwork). If it hadn't been I would have put it back myself, blocked the IP, and semi-protected the article--but as it is, maybe that's why they removed it. Drmies (talk) 19:46, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The picture is clearly a screen grab from a television program and the subject is a living person. It's a copyrighted image that the uploader doesn't own. The IP was absolutely doing the right thing, aside from. It communicating. Blocking would have been less than ideal. AniMate 19:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Excellent, thanks. Apdency, I don't know if that's an answer since I don't know if that's why the IP kept removing, but it's helpful. Drmies (talk) 19:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Helpful, yes, but I don't know why AniMate says that it is clearly a screen grab. Which characteristics lead to that conclusion inevitably? Apdency (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• You're right. I didn't look closely enough (mobile device). I'm more inclined now to say that it's a picture taken at a television taping. Still it was missing permissions, and until that's done it's probably a good idea for the picture to remain out of the article. AniMate 21:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Also a number of other articles in Wikipedia projects would be losing this picture then. It seems likely that this is going to happen. The uploader (a colleague of the depicted journalist?) has only been editing on Commons on one day in June 2012, and I'm very unsure that this person will provide the information Future Perfect at Sunrise has asked for. Apdency (talk) 08:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Hoaxing/Vandalism

Hi, a few days ago I reverted this edit on The Snowman. Pretty clear case of vandalism by misattributing credit for several production roles. I looked further into the IP's edits and discovered a hoax which was spread over several articles. It's about a show called the Joey & Fido Show which apparently doesn't exist. Here are a few examples:

[169] [170] [171]

I researched this "show" and the only references to it I could find were all related to this user's entries in the encyclopedia. There is one unrelated Deviant Art page. Almost all of this user's vandalism pertains in some manner to Martin Lambie-Nairn. I ended up having to give up fixing this user's edits after around 70 of them spread all over Wikipedia. Please feel free to review my contributions for a full list. It includes several BLP violations pertaining to Lambie-Nairn in particular.

This user has editing Lambie-Nairn's page each of the past three days adding in unsourced claims, and don't appear to be willing to stop: [172] [173] [174]

I'm in over my head trying to deal with this as I have very little expertise and only sporadic time to edit. I'm asking for some of you folks to please watch some of these pages, and am also concerned that if a user like this spread a hoax once they may be tempted to again. I doubt they'd have been caught if not for making the mistake of editing a popular page like The Snowman.

I apologize in advance if I reverted anything I shouldn't have but every one of those 70ish edits looked like vandalism after reviewing them. I'm posting this here instead of at WP:AIV because I'm not sure if the hoaxing aspect requires more attention than normal.

They primarily edit from an IP in the range of 88.104.x.x, but not always. This changes almost every day. I will go and place the notification on their two most recent accounts.

Thank you Zarcusian (talk) 17:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Joey & Fido. here's more Looks like a new-ish animation, utterly non-notable. Not sure if it is the same thing, but it exists. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:58, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi, yes, that is related to the deviant art page artist and is unrelated to these edits, I checked many times. This editor even refers to the show debuting in the 70s and having a feature film, etc.. Zarcusian (talk) 18:03, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I think we need a rangeblock. There are a bunch of IPs that geolocate to Manchester, UK, and if we can get a handle on their extent, we can see how much collateral damage would come from a rangeblock. Here's what I'm seeing:

• 88.104.0.79 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.0.91 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.0.182 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.0.193 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.2.114 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.2.233 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.4.88 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.4.143 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.7.195 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.8.65 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.8.11 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.9.120 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.9.147 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.10.145 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.11.113 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.12.219 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.12.234 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.13.7 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.13.113 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.13.216 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.15.25 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 88.104.15.210 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 81.141.193.150 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 86.150.172.185 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

There are a few outliers which are obviously connected, for instance 86.135.131.130 from nearby Heswell. But the main problem comes from the range 88.104.0 to 88.104.15. I think this should be blocked for a month. Binksternet (talk) 15:24, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• 88.104.0.0/20 (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)) is what you are talking about, 4096 hosts, which isn't so dramatic. I'm not an expert on rangeblocks but I'm more than familiar enough. I've manually checked half the range and don't think there will be much collateral damage, so soft blocking for a month. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

  Excellent work. Thank you, Dennis! Binksternet (talk) 06:19, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Interference with DRN case, possible violation of topic ban

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Energy Catalyzer, an alleged cold fusion device, has been a an area of contention for many years, with multiple trips to ANI[175][176] and the article is under standard discretionary sanctions as part of the pseudoscience arbcom case.

User:Insertcleverphrasehere is under a community sanction topic ban[177][178][179] from making edits anywhere on Wikipedia relating to cold fusion, broadly construed.

On 15 September 2015 Insertcleverphrasehere posted a comment to User talk:Robert92107 which appears to me to be an attempt to escalate the conflict between him and another editor involved in the Energy Catalyzer DRN case.[180][181] I responded here:[182]

On 5 September 2015 Insertcleverphrasehere posted a similar comment to User talk:Brian Josephson,[183] this time in response to a warning about edit warring on the Energy Catalyzer page. [184]

When the community imposes a topic-ban, the ideal situation is that (perhaps after blowing off some steam) the topic-banned user unwatches the banned pages, walks away from the topic, and edits elsewhere. We can't stop him from following the disputes(s) that got him banned, but posting comments to talk pages when someone who is still involved in the dispute gets a DRN or EW notice is, in my opinion, stepping over the line, and encouraging editors involved in the conflict to fight each other is unhealthy for the encyclopedia and for the dispute resolution process. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Whether s/he is trying to get users to fight with each other is debatable; at any rate, his/her behavior indeed seems like violating the terms of the topic ban. (SN: I find it odd that s/he appears to be bragging about being topic-banned.) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:23, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

This is an unambiguous violation of the topic ban. The E-Cat is a purported cold fusion device. Guy (Help!) 10:45, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I was giving advice to another editor on their personal talk page about a topic from which I have personal experience. Having followed User:Robert92107's Edits over the past month or so, I suggested that he might not want to go down the same road I did. (if anyone actually reads my comment I suggested that he back off, and in no way suggested an escalation of the conflict.)  InsertCleverPhraseHere ^{InsertTalkHere}  23:49, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps the exact terms of my topic ban were not correctly relayed to me, I didn't realise that I'm not allowed to give advice to other editors. The guy is a new editor to wikipedia, and might not realise how easy it is, as a new editor, to get topic banned if you get in a dispute on ANI against a very senior editor (I certainly didn't). I have followed my topic ban perfectly up to this point, and have been making other useful edits to wikipedia in the past 6 months, including creating a new article: Joseph Sledge. If this is a violation of my topic ban (I didn't realise it was) then I will refrain from doing similar in the future.  InsertCleverPhraseHere ^{InsertTalkHere}  23:57, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, this is a good time to WP:AGF, accept the above, and close this as no action required. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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User:Signedzzz and WP:Personal attacks and WP:Harassment

In the #Sigmund Freud section above, Signedzzz showed up, looking to pick a fight with me, arguing that my commenting in that thread was about him. He resorted to WP:Personal attacks, and didn't stop there. Soon afterward, he moved my comments, stating that I should not move his comments. I replied (followup note here), "You moved mine; I w[ant] my comments together; do not cut in between them." He reverted again. I understand that editors are allowed to cut in between comments, but, since I still wanted my comments together, I changed the style of my comments by placing them in the same paragraph; I also moved my comments together like that so that it is clear that my "00:43, 16 September 2015 (UTC)" post is in response to both of his latest posts -- the "00:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)" and the "00:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)" comments. I warned Signedzzz not to mess with my posts since I'd changed the style. As seen with this edit, he challenged me on that. I reverted him again, stating, "WP:Disruptive editor engaging WP:Personal attacks, WP:Harassment and WP:Talk violations; will be reported if he continues." He replied, "yes i hope an admin does take note."

I would consider this trivial, even the WP:Personal attacks trivial, if this were not an editor who has a serious obsession with me/grudge against me, as stated by different editors in the past. He has a history of trying to egg me on, and a history of severely antagonizing others. He was hoping to prolong the altercation between us, and even revisited this article, seemingly hoping to annoy me in some way, as if I would care that he is fixing his own typo. He currently wants me to remove the WP:Sockpuppet watch section from my user page, because he asserts that it's about him, and that I imply that he is a pedophile in addition to being a WP:Sock, which is not the case at all. He is pestering me now because of that and our past altercations. He never lets anything go, and misinterprets matters so badly that I never want to discuss a thing with him. If needed, I will seek a WP:Interaction ban with regard to his interaction with me. He clearly followed me to WP:ANI just to pick a fight. Flyer22 (talk) 02:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Update: As seen with this link, Fram blocked Signedzzz. I wasn't looking for a block, and was more so focused on the comment placement matter (so that Signedzzz wouldn't think he could rightly separate my comments after I'd combined them into a paragraph and reverted him on separating them), but I thank you for upholding the WP:Personal attacks policy, when so many other Wikipedians couldn't care less about it except for in extreme cases. That stated, the aforementioned WP:Personal attacks instance clearly is not mild. Also, per what I stated above in this section, and on my talk page, I will restore my two comments to being combined (in a paragraph) as I had them before. Anyone should feel free to close this section; I apologize for the drama-fest. Flyer22 (talk) 11:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Just FYI to any admins watching, the editor in question has been rather carefully sculpting an unblock request on his user talk page for some time now. At least the last time I looked, I didn't see much to indicate that he wouldn't engage in much the same conduct, or, in fact, much of an indication that he even acknowledged having done anything wrong. But he has been editing the comment rather a lot. John Carter (talk) 22:54, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Lg16spears (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - cross posted from WP:AIV

• Lg16spears (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Needs some attention. I'm not sure how they keep flying under the radar with these countless additions of rumors, spam, and tabloids with unreliable sources. Warned many, many times, yet it continues to happen and nothing is done about it. Thechased (talk) 02:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC) - I have forgotten how to quote. This report from AIV is cross posted here. Viridae^{DON'T PANIC} 03:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I picked four edits at random and didn't see anything untoward. Which edits need some attention? Willondon (talk) 11:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

1 2 3 4 5 to name a few. Thechased (talk) 15:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure I see the problem. In the first diff, Lg16spears added news of a reboot to a film article. In this diff, you called The Hollywood Reporter a "non-reliable source" and reverted Lg16spears. However, THR is one of the most reliable sources available for film-related articles. If you're unfamiliar with film articles, you can see a list of reliable sources at WP:FILM/R. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

SPA Accusation

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I have been editing Wikepedia since 2011. If you look at my past history I've edited mostly articles related to WP:JW. I am not much knowledgeable in other subjects, though I have knowledge in one specific field such articles are already brilliant compared to my knowledge. I often have a conflict with these two editors User:BlackCab and User:Jeffro77. In most of the conflicts we usually reach a consensus, though sometimes its bitter for both to accept my changes. See this conflict I had with User:Jeffro77 in past. I been inactive in Wiki because of personal reasons, and I became active recently specifically contributing Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse. During the course of recent edits I often had conflicts with these two editors and the talk often end up going off-topic. (like a theological dispute). I revealed that I am one of JWs recently, and User:BlackCab has revealed in the past that he hates his former religion. After I raised some serious issues in main JWs talk page, they feel uncomfortable with my sourced edits. Or they misrepresent my edits as not what they read in source. I was quick to apologize if I made a misquote. But I feel they threatening me as a SPA to hinder me to work further, or use that accusation to revert edits without a consensus on talk page. I want to be judged whether I am SPA or not. I am willing to be blocked permanently if I am one. Notice that most of my edits in the past are undisputed, even in disputed cases we've reached a consensus.Roller958 (talk) 03:57, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Close as frivolous. Over the years I have not got along with BlackCab on a few occasions regarding this issue in particular. I have gained a respect for this user not only in this area but overall conduct on wiki overall even in disagreement (for full disclosure my family is in the religion and I was raised in it as well). This is a CONTENT DISPUTE which can easily be resolved in places other then here. The same WP:COI you are complaining about him is the same one that you carry as a Witness. Consider that the vast majority of your own edits are also religion based and there is nothing wrong about that. [SPA] are allowed here. You can always ask for a RFC or file Wikipedia:Mediation Committee and if that fails and there is extreme pov pushing you can request arbitration. I would highly suggest not asking for arbitration as it has not been an issue dealt with dispute resolution in the formal sense. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 04:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly, Roller958 is misrepresenting me as someone who is biased because I "hate" my former religion. (This is a blunt and inaccurate portrayal of my attitude towards its manipulative, coercive conduct towards members). I have managed to negotiate with this editor on some issues to reach agreement, but he persists in a course of advocacy for his religion on Wikipedia; his latest suggestion is that a certain claim by a number of authors that is critical of the Jehovah's Witnesses is "highly questionable because adherents never even heard about this rant and (the Watch Tower Society) never felt a need to rebut this conspiracy theory." His usual tactic when confronted by critical matter is that the authors are ex-JWs (and presumably biased), even when they are not. Roller958 does indeed fit the description of an SPA: his editing history is restricted only to articles on Jehovah's Witnesses; the sources he cites are only primary sources of the JWs themselves and his edits are often defensive of the religion and apologetic in tone. (See this, this and this extraordinary one, in which he says it's OK for a religion not to alert police to sex abuse in its ranks when it's only incest.) Beyond that, I am unsure what his complaint is about me. Yes, he is an SPA and I have cautioned him about his conflict of interest as an obviously passionate JW. I am a long-time contributor to JW-related articles (in addition to other non-religious subjects) and I have significantly expanded and improved coverage of some subjects with a range of quality secondary sources. BlackCab (TALK) 05:06, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

There was no accusation of Roller958 as a single-purpose account, only a caution—no SPA tag, nor any report, nor any threat. Single-purpose accounts are not forbidden, but can be a cause of concern where a degree of bias may be perceived. WP:SPA states: "many single-purpose accounts turn out to be well-intentioned editors with a niche interest, but a significant number appear to edit for the purposes of promotion or showcasing their favored point of view, which is not allowed." BlackCab's concern is certainly warranted, since there is no doubt whatsoever that Roller958's position is highly partisan (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jehovah%27s_Witnesses%27_handling_of_child_sex_abuse&diff=prev&oldid=680828519). There is no basis for the claim that edits would be reverted merely on the basis of an editor using a single-purpose account. It is unclear why Roller958 felt the need to cite a discussion from three years ago as an 'example' of the 'bitter conflicts' that happen often.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:54, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

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Mushroomexpertboy1 and Mushroomexpertboy

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(Moving report here from AIV, seems more appropriate)

Mushroomexpertboy1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a vandalism-only account with a previous history of introducing factual errors to mushroom articles regarding toxicity (ex. [185]). Following a several month period of dormancy the account was brought back to life again to vandalize my user page ([186]) shortly after I had tagged Nathan Baptiste, an A7-qualified page created by Mushroomexpertboy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), before the user then proceeded to remove speedy deletion templates at Nathan Baptiste ([187] and [188]). This account's reactivation was seemingly to circumvent Mushroomexpertboy being unable to remove CSD templates from a page they created themselves. After attempts at removing the speedy template were undone by myself and Thibaut120094, the user then proceeded to vandalize my user page twice more ([189] and [190]) before duplicating the contents of my userpage to their personal sandbox. The content continued to be edited in increasingly severe personal attacks (ex. [191]). The user's disruptive editing and personal issues with me have now moved into other projects with the upload of an attack image (for lack of a better word) to Commons.

I should mention that this user has also been reported as a suspected sockpuppet by me at SPI. According to Special:Log/Mushroomexpertboy this account was created by Mushroomexpertboy, and both accounts have been engaging in disruptive edits. RA0808 ^talk_contribs 04:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

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User:Luise1998 DUCK sock in need of block

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Can someone block Luise1998 (talk · contribs) as one of the many Raj TV promotional socks

• David03112000 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jashkknagar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jessumahatma (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Brindavijay03 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

apparently emanating from the main account Jaswanthvijay (talk · contribs) . thanks. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:37, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I know this isn't WP:RPP but if the admin looking into this could semi Raj TV and Raj TV US it could slow down the resumption of the spamming - Arjayay (talk) 16:53, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the account. Note that Raj TV has been semi'ed since September 8th. --Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 17:08, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

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User:Sofa King Insane

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Need an admin to indef block Sofa King Insane. Feel free to pick from the list or add to it. I'd do it myself except that I've reverted some of his trolling and have been personally attacked, so some might question my impartiality. Rklawton (talk) 16:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• user name
• personal attacks [192] [193] [194]
• trolling (see contributions, it isn't very long)[195]

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Disruptive IP

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Resolved

Please take action against this IP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:168.184.14.100. Thank you. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 17:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

One schoolblock applied. These can be reported to WP:AIV in the future. Thanks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 18:07, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

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Help to deal with sockpuppetry

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User talk:Azhar sulfikar was blocked. Then he used this account User talk:Mollywoodmonster to continue creating same useless pages. Used this IP sock to repeadtedly remove deletion tag from Dhananjay CS. I suggest proper action to be taken against this sock Mollywoodmonster. --Action Hero Shoot! 17:33, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Actually there is another registered sock who was editing that very same article (admin access only) and they didn't start an account until someone was blocked, and they are the same as the IP. I don't have time to file, but I did dig up enough to be convinced of this. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:41, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Please delete his auto-biography Azhar Sulfikar created through unreliable useless references . --Action Hero Shoot! 17:50, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Azhar Sulfikar Born in 2001 and became a playback singer??? This is a kid using Wikipedia for fun and mischief. Action Hero Shoot! 17:53, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Careful. The article does have at least two sources, weak as they may be, that doesn't qualify it for speedy deletion. I have sent the article to AfD. Black Kite (talk) 18:03, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• I cleaned up at SPI, two weeks for the master, indef for the sock. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:09, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
  • Should the AfD be closed then? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 01:00, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

No one issue remains.Action Hero Shoot! 05:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Dennis Brown: This article which is a made up story Tarabal Khuiyaan as Google news search results is zero and google book search result is also zero other than the Wikipedia page. I knew that the references given by the page creator has no mention of the topic. Mollywoodmonster came to edit that page. My speedy deletion was rejected and i nominated it for deletion where no comments by other users are posted yet. The entire article is confusing and everything seems to be made up by the page creator. Even if i believe these wells exist, there is no mention why these wells have notability. This is written like a Geography text book.Action Hero Shoot! 05:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Action Hero, looking at your edit history, since anyone's contributions may be put under scrutiny at WP:ANI, it resembles that of one or more other accounts. And despite being a new account, you don't edit like a WP:Newbie at all. Are you sure there is nothing you want to disclose in that regard? Flyer22 (talk) 07:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

No, i am not a pure newbie. The latest Hollywood movie pages get semi-protected, so.... My first edits were to movie pages.

Another problem was that IPs had previous edit history from other users, more then IP user can use the same IP. Some edit history was okay, while some were used to vandalize. I didn't like the Orange message while editing. There were bot warnings and User-warnings in IP talkpages about disruptive edits. You can't ignore orange notification: unless you read it, the orange message won't go. Now, i get talk page messages for my edits, not other's edits. Now why should I read those warnings given weeks, months ago about vandalism and disruptive edits on pages related to politics , British Football club, TV Reality stars and other articles which i didn't even know existed?

Some old users even give welcome message to IPs. You should ask them not to give welcome message to IP users; as those IP users might read the welcome message properly and one Wikipedia page links to other Wikipedia Policy page. In the bottom of those pages there are links to other similar pages. Action Hero Shoot! 08:53, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Your message makes zero sense. Old users give welcome messages to IPs. Nothing wrong in that. I have done it, Huggle does it automatically if you mark a good edit. as those IP users might read the welcome message properly and one Wikipedia page links to other Wikipedia Policy page makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly are you trying to say here? Also, @Flyer22: I had the same doubt as you. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 10:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Action Hero shows some inexperience in his editing. But, from what I see, including that he participated at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Montanabw‎, he is also far more experienced at editing Wikipedia than the typical WP:Newbie. Things he's doing in his editing are things WP:Newbies usually do not do; they just don't. I've also seen editors fake their WP:Newbie qualities. But I'll leave it up to others to trust Action Hero's words on his Wikipedia editing experience. Last thing I need is anyone accusing me of not WP:Assuming good faith for commenting on something I'm very knowledgeable on -- in this case, spotting non-new editors who have new accounts. Flyer22 (talk) 11:55, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Action Hero is a fairly obvious sock from this group. The technical evidence aligns and the behavioural overlap is significant.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 15:55, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Note that I've also blocked Aero Slicer as a sock of Undertrialryryr.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 17:07, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, the Irony. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 20:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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User:Domlesch

Domlesch (talk · contribs) is a sock of Tobias Conradi (see meta:Steward_requests/Checkuser#Domlesch.40wikidata) and should be blocked. --Pasleim (talk) 18:59, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

It looks like s/he suddenly retired. Would a visit to WP:SPI still be necessary though? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:55, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Not unless he un-retires. Checkusers won't do any more work than they absolutely have to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:44, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

o_O That's not right, Baseball Bugs. Anyway, the account is using mobile IPs, so not much can be done. Keegan (talk) 07:45, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, who should I believe? You? Or my own personal experience? What I said is true, and it's also true that they won't do anything with IP's. An SPI is generally a waste of time and effort. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

DUCK sock Bestone

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A not very creative duck.

• Bestone22 (talk · contribs)
• Bestone226 (talk · contribs)

After getting a final warning created a new account removing the 6 from the end to continue , this time adding copyright images. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:02, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the new (puppet) account. This really looks like a case of a wayward noob. I'm hoping someone can help the original account get on track. Rklawton (talk) 19:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Uploading various images he finds on the web of this person and then claiming they are his own image appears to be all he does using either account. He's gotten multiple warnings on both en.wp and commons for it, and both accounts are blocked there (one for being a dup account of the other, and now the other also blocked for ongoing copyvio). DMacks (talk) 14:39, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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Misuse of userspace (NSFW) by User:Croxx036

Despite an administrator (@Anna Frodesiak:) taking action in the past over inappropriate content on his userpage [196], Croxx036 continues to treat their userpage as though Wikipedia were a hookup site, displaying sexually explicit photos and listing their favorite sexual activities. The userpage isn't quite eligible for U5, because it also includes the list of articles they've created and because "only" 47.5% of their edits involve the userpage. But Croxx036 knows the content isn't appropriate (edit summary at [197], sexually explicit image displayed) and is trying to game the system to keep their inappropriate content from being removed. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 20:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Offensive material covers this. WP:NOTCENSORED, but these overtly graphic images stuck on a user's main page are pretty obviously meant to shock, and don't contribute to the encyclopedia except to bring disrepute. These should be removed, and if the user continues to post them, they should be kicked out. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 20:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Removed photo and warned user. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Just to note, WP:NOTCENSORED is only applicable to articles. BMK (talk) 22:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Would a RevDel be appropriate here? I haven't looked at the images (being at work and all). Blackmane (talk) 02:10, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think so. It was a standard dick pic (shaking my head as I write that and muttering, "only on Wikipedia"). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:47, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Probably not, but the image should be deleted. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:20, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Ivanvector, it's on Commons so... good luck? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:55, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Bad image list might be an option, if you really feel like it. ^Avic_ennasis @ 01:09, 5 Tishrei 5776 / 01:09, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Legal threat by IP

Here. --Skamecrazy123 (talk) 20:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I just now warned the user about the no legal threats policy. —C.Fred (talk) 20:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Textbook case. GAB^Hello! 20:33, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

For context, the same blanking came up five years ago at Talk:Tube_Challenge#Record_holder.27s_name: a SPA/socking editor claiming to be one of the record holders and demanding that their name be removed, despite being named in the Guinness Book of Records and in plenty of press coverage. They never explained why. --McGeddon (talk) 20:38, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Palkanetojiala (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has started editing the same topics and created an article titled Andi James. The legal threats have not been repeated, but it's likely the same user now registered. —C.Fred (talk) 20:41, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

...And has been indefinitely blocked by another admin. —C.Fred (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• IP blocked 36 hours for making legal threats after another occurrence. Since it's an IP, I'm reluctant to long-term block for a first offence, since it might be a dynamic or gateway IP. —C.Fred (talk) 20:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

It's the second IP to edit over the same content today, likely same user each time. I've added the pages to my watchlist in case the user continues disruption under a different IP (dynamic, public WiFi, or other means) - hopefully others will be watching it as well. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:07, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

The original account from 2010 is User:Palkanetoijala (with a slightly different spelling to the recent account), if any more socks emerge. --McGeddon (talk) 21:11, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• I'm guessing the blocked IP 90.221.240.163 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is the same editor is 94.117.82.237 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), who is not blocked but who has been removing the same content. Epic Genius (talk) 00:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Spamming user still spamming

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User ‎82.232.81.119 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) had been spamming a video game article with a link he's affiliated with up until recently when his link was blacklisted and the article semi-protected. Now he's adding the link to user talk pages instead it seems[198]. Eik Corell (talk) 08:27, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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Administrator can check the details

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Is it possible that Khayal Abbas AKhtar is the re-created version of Khayal Abbas Akhtar? --Action Hero Shoot! 12:23, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Khayal Abbas AKhtar is different than the latest deleted version of Khayal Abbas Akhtar, but it is about the same person. -- GB fan 12:27, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Same guy, but completely different wording so I'd treat it as a new article. FWIW I'd still A7 this without blinking, as I see no credible assertion of notability. ‑ iridescent 12:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Somebody beat me to deleting it and speedy-closing the AfD. I also (re-)blocked the creator as an obvious sock of the one that created the previous versions, so the deletion would also count under G5. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:39, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

User:KHAYAL ABBAS AKHTAR came with a new account to write his auto-biography. Thanks for wasting my time. Action Hero Shoot! 12:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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Request for review of my admin actions

Hard left suffered an edit war earlier this week. Responding to an AN/EW report, I protected the page for one week and asked all parties to discuss the matter.

Apparently, I protected it on The Wrong Version and should have blocked User:Garageland66. I declined a subsequent {{editprotected}} request on Talk:Hard left because there was not a clear consensus and it was not uncontroversial. This has not gone down well with the main editors of the article, User:Attractel and User:Andy Dingley, as can be seen on my talk page and the article talk page.

I submit all actions for review in the interest of full transparency. Uninvolved admins have full liberty to vacate the protection, edit through the protection, etc. Stifle (talk) 13:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Stifle (talk · contribs), what's that got to do with it? Do you speak for [User:Davidcannon]] now?!?! _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 13:58, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

My bad - it would appear I somehow didn't scroll down enough when I got edit conflicted and put my report in the middle of someone elses. My browser really doesn't like something about this page and it's doing everything very slowly so that was probably how it happened. Dpmuk (talk) 14:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Right! No probs _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 14:04, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this here. No thanks though for the pejorative implication that I'm "a main editor" of this article, thus defending my own merely subjective position. I have had almost no involvement with this article, just followed Garageland here from his (blocked) edit-warring at Communist Party of Britain (and other articles). I have changed no content here, only added references. As it's a somewhat BLP article and was missing refs, I added them. We are supposed to be in favour of such edits. Not that the content is anyway contentious either, although the names will be unfamiliar if you're not a Brit. If this article should even exist (i.e. is "Hard left" a term used in UK politics to refer to a distinct set of people?) then these are the obvious names to associate with it.

Garageland objects to this article. Also to issues about Communist Party of Britain and Morning Star. I don't know why, I can't see past his behavioural issues of simple edit-warring and blanking whatever he disagrees with (see the article talk: pages). The issue here is not "Eric Heffer was Hard Left but Dennis Skinner isn't" or even "Can we get a better source for a comment made by Michael Foot?" Those would be a reasonable and collegial way to move an article forwards. Instead it's just edit-warring and un-adminned attacks on other editors. We see such EW edits as bad because they make it impossible for other GF editors to work around them. That is the issue here, not where the content finally ends up.

Stifle did not pay any attention to any of this, or to any of the ANEW report. He simply saw it as "content dispute" and locked it for a week to "start" (sic) discussion. "nobody has started any discussion yet" rather ignored the three threads that had already started on that very page. If this is the standard of adminship today, it is inept and could well be replaced by a simple Perl script. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:32, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• Support action (Non-administrator comment) - this is clearly a content dispute amongst several editors, not disruption by one user. Protection was the right call. Reverting and edit summaries are not a substitute for discussion. Declining the edit request was likewise appropriate - it is clearly controversial and was not discussed. Attractel swearing they will revert back to their preferred version as soon as protection expires is cause for concern. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:36, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I think you'll find that it's one person (the individual who wants change to the original version) against the opposition of two people and a silent consensus who left it untouched for many years. But sure, we should just leave it at the current changed version where there was zero consensus for change, simply because.. well, there is no real reason, let's be honest. Attractel (talk) 01:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

• Endorse actions Protection was correct. There has been no discussion on the talk page that I would consider to be serious or in the attempt to resolve the issue except for those started by Garageland66. This is even better proof that the protection was needed. Deciding to revert regardless of/without engaging in the discussion is a very poor idea. -- Orduin ^Discuss 17:32, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Garageland66, the only person who wanted to edit it hasn't even replied. He's a one-man band, and quite clearly we've been discussing it in two sections on the talk page. Now tell me, why exactly should the no consensus version not be reverted? You're simply basing your decision on my comment that I'll revert it back myself - I originally refrained from reverting it whatsoever, awaiting a reply; which may I add, Garageland66 has disappeared. I see it's just a little cabal of friends around here, so I wouldn't expect any legitimate opposition to an admin action. Attractel (talk) 01:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Strongly oppose action Never open an ANI thread unless you absolutely have to. If an involved editor has a problem with your action let them open the discussion. (Protection is fine, by the way). NE Ent 01:37, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Admin Davidcannon and AWB

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Davidcannon (talk · contribs)

I came across this user when I noticed several strange looking "kg"s in Battle of Britain Day. In this instance these are the name of of a military unit rather than a unit of mass so "KG" is correct. Davidcannon had changed these from "KG" to "kg" using AWB. Looking at their recent contribution I noticed a couple more instances of this so dropped them a note - and noticed at the time a couple of more, in one case lengthy, thread on their talk page about their use of AWB. Today their user page showed up on my watchlist again and it was someone else complaining about their AWB use so I decided to check their edits since my note. I found two definite errors (this was not a reference to the band Boyz II men and this was a place name, not the word cannot) and one which I strongly suspect was (Luitenant appears to be the correct splling in Dutch). Since they have had several comments on their AWB use and nothing seems to have changed I'd normally just be asking for removal of their AWB access somewhere else. As an admin that's not possible so bringing it here for community review and possible sanction (I'd like to see an enforced break from AWB). Dpmuk (talk) 13:55, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• I give up. Obviously my well-meaning edits are creating more errors than it's worth. I'm sick of all the complaints, some of which are justified. From tonight, I'll take a complete break from AWB EXCEPT for articles that I myself have created, at least until the end of this year. I have no desire to be seen as disrupting this project, for which I have a huge passion. So, from now on, at least until the end of this year, anything I do on AWB will be confined to articles that I create from time to time — to ensure lack of typos, etc. David Cannon (talk) 14:05, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• It would be nice to assume good faith in David Cannon's edits here. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 14:15, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• AGF is not a suicide pact, and WP:CIR applies to admins as well. I was there for the original discussion, and entirely endorse ordering Davidcannon not to use automated tools, and if necessary to desysop him to remove his access to them. (Unfortunately, one can't remove the AWB right from an admin so if he's not willing to abide by a voluntary ban, he would have to be desysopped.) He's been warned, repeatedly, about the misuse of automated tools, and it's clear that he's just mechanically clicking "save"—or possibly running an unauthorised bot—rather than actually checking what he's doing. Pointless minor edit, edit without noticing he was "correcting" a piece of promotional spam, "correcting" the spelling of a proper name, adding a single capital letter in the middle of an entirely lower-case sentence, changing the phrase "boys to men" to "Boyz II Men", presumably thinking it's a reference to the Motown band, all from the last few minutes alone. Given the number of people who have raised concerns about his abuse of automated tools, with no sign of him changing his conduct, I would say the last chance has been passed unless he's willing to abide by a complete voluntary ban from automated tools.  ‑ iridescent 14:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• Agree with User:Davidcannon's own proposition, which if abided by should have the result the community desires (with, presumably, the converse that if such activity were to continue, we have established the only recourse that would be available). Although perhaps the length of time should be longer? -I note that- pace- the 'end of the year' is less than three months away. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 14:21, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• This would be a ridiculous thing for someone to be desysopped over, but I see why. Bureaucracy, eh? I agree with Davidcannon's proposal to voluntarily stop using AWB, and I think that should be good enough. We could talk about whether a user being repeatedly asked to watch their use of the tool for mistakes and consistently continuing to make the mistakes should be forcibly removed from using them, but as others have pointed out this requires desysopping, and we're a long way from admin misconduct here. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 14:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• Just want to make it clear - because I probably didn't originally - that I'm not after a desyopping. I was suggesting a community ban on using AWB for some length of time. As an admin I'd hope, and believe, that they would abide by that. If they ignore than ban... well we can cross that bridge in the extremely unlikely event that it happens. Dpmuk (talk) 14:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
  • I am willing to withdraw for a longer period — whatever length of time the community deems appropriate. By the way, I strongly deny using a "bot" of any kind — throwing that kind of accusation at me is irresponsible. Nor am I just manually clicking — I have made some poor judgement calls, to be sure, but I deny just sitting here and clicking. On the contrary, there are numerous edits on which I've changed more than what was recommended. User:Lugnuts has even reverted me when I've added links! But it's not about personalities. I'm sick of all the arguments and I'll withdraw for as long as the community desires. David Cannon (talk) 14:36, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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Paid editing/impersonation

I have been contacted via email by user:Srtwiki who claims that they payed someone with my name and an email address similar to my username $325 to create a page. The page has apparently now been deleted and this person is not responding to their emails. There was a similar incident in June - details here - where someone claiming to be me was asking for money to reinstate a deleted page.

Srtwiki was registered today and has never edited. I doubt they will tell me what page they created, so it won't be easy finding out who it really is.

Any advice on how to deal with this would be greatly appreciated. Sarahj2107 (talk) 16:54, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Sarahj2107, any chance your experience resembles this set of circumstances? Tiderolls 17:11, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, I missed that one. There are similarities but the email I got only says "Is [I'll not post this but it's not mine] your email address? I paid $325 to Sarah Jane for my Wiki page and it has now been deleted and she hasn't been responding." So I wouldn't want to say it's definitely linked without more information. Sarahj2107 (talk) 17:35, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Sarahj2107: please forward, with permission, any correspondence you have to info-orangemoody@wikipedia.org and please ask @Srtwiki: to do the same. Thank you. Keegan (talk) 05:08, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

ArmstrongJulian nominating articles for deletion out of personal grudges and general editing with personal bias and rudeness

− I have been having a lot of problems with the editor ArmstrongJulian. It began when this editor quite awhile ago got very angry at me over edits made in the article [[199]]. This editor accused me of making purposely false edits and was very aggressive in their accusations and rudeness towards me for no reason. I should have reported them then, but I just ignored them. I stayed clear of this editor after that. Then I saw some edits they made at the article of Michael Bramos, and they were edits that to me made the article hard to understand from sentence structure. I did not even remember it was the same editor. But I simply asked if the editor could please be careful in their grammar edits at their talk page. I also noticed that in several articles of basketball players that I was looking at, the heights of the players in their infoboxes was being changed. This was being done actually in dozens of articles, all by this same editor. So I simply asked at the same time, was there a reason for this? I wanted an explanation really. That was all. I was just trying to have a normal discussion. I normally can do this all the time with other editors and these things are no problem. But ArmstrongJulian was very rude and would have no discussion at all [[200]]. :Then, from there, the next thing that happened was I noticed that this same editor was following my edits, and then they started nominating several of my articles for deletion. Something i was not aware of, because they never notified me of them be ing nominated for deletion. When I asked about them not notifying me, they said they never notify anyone when they put their articles up for deletion, and always get articles deleted because editors are too lazy to notice. When I argued about all of this, I was told they would not discuss any of it with me, but I should take it to the basketball project of Wikipedia Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball. I did not realize at the time, this was their way of stalling me, and getting some others involved that would help them get my articles deleted. I thought this was reasonable, to discuss with other editors, so I did it - Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball#ArmstrongJulian, but I got no discussion from any others there and only Julian continued to be rude and refused to discuss anything. Meanwhile my articles continued for deletion with no discussion. Meanwhile, I tried to ask for opinions of other good editors I know and respect a lot, because they are very good editors and they work very well with others when you ask a question and they discuss everything and always try to help. User:Rikster2 and User:AirWolf Rikster advised me to come here with this, but Airwolf said that he would not personally do so when talking about another editor, so I did not. So I did not and waited.

But since I waited, already my article All-Europe Player of the Year was deleted, with the reason being given that I had no external sources provided in the article. That however is a flat out lie. The article had two external media sources provided in it. And every editor involved in claiming that either is mistaken, or is lying, and yes I am saying that. Because i said it had those sources, it did have those sources, and it did meet the site criteria. Which is why Julian did not inform me when he nominated it for deletion, and which is why he then involved another user User:Bagumba into the discussion of whether it should be deleted or not. I am not making a complaint against Bagumba. At least not yet. Let me clarify that. But i want to make clear that in the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball they are always agreeing with each other and they are always suggesting one thing, with the other agreeing and trying to change things or set new standards. As soon as I told Julian that i would send a complaint against him if he did not stop being rude to me at that basketball wiki project, it was Bagumba that then started talking at my articles nominated for deletion, sending me that discussion invited and then it was he who nominated my latest creation for deletion, a template that I made. I would have to be a complete moron to not see the connection. Just as I would have to be a complete moron not to notice that as soon as I asked Julian about his edits at the Michael Bramos article and why he was changing heights on dozens of articles, that he got very rude with me, and then he nominated my articles for deletion. I tried numerous times to have a discussion with him and he refused and was very rude, and insulting. So obviously this is my only recourse.Bluesangrel (talk) 17:50, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Bluesangrel: - WP:TLDR. Also please include diffs. GiantSnowman 17:51, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, what exactly specifically do you need diffs of? Because every single thing stated here can be verified.Bluesangrel (talk) 18:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

@Bluesangrel: - Just a small notice. Your statement that I have advised you not to "come here" is incorrect. Please, in the future don't make such falsehood.--AirWolf ^talk 18:04, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

That's not what I mean. I am saying that you said you would not do so. Which is what you told me.Bluesangrel (talk) 18:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Just to clarify, there was confusion because of how I worded it when I wrote it, I did not word it how I should have. I meant to say, that AirWolf said he would not take a user to a complaint board, so I did not do it. But what I failed to clarify was that I was using that advice, but from when I was asking him from before, when another editor was being difficult to deal with and rude. It was not me specifically asking him about Julian. So I mean to say, I asked him about another editor. Sorry for the confusion. I did not word that properly.Bluesangrel (talk) 18:58, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, I respectfully ask that I be left out of this. I never asked to be involved and have no grudge or alliance with either party. I'm just trying to get this aired out in the proper place (which would NOT be my Talk page). Rikster2 (talk) 18:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Rikster2, I am merely asking that you confirm that you have been involved in this, going back all the way to when Julian began calling me into a discussion at the Pallacanestro Treviso talk page, to that I tried to bring a discussion several times at the basketball project, after Julian told me that was where he would discuss matters with me. I am not asking you to be involved in anything. Only to confirm what I am saying. I certainly don't think that is asking too much.Bluesangrel (talk) 18:13, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I have a correction to make, it was not Rikster that was talking with me and Julian at the Pallacanestro Treviso talk page. It was Anthony Appleyard. That's why Rikster was confused on that. Sorry for that mistake.Bluesangrel (talk) 18:49, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

• I have the following comments:

• Bluesangrel started the thread Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball#ArmstrongJulian on September 14. I requested that Blueangrel provide diffs supporting the accusations, but did not receive any.
• "... he then involved another user User:Bagumba into the discussion of whether it should be deleted or not" I am not aware of ArmstrongJulian directly involving me. IIRC, I became involved because of the aforementioned WikiProject Basketball thread that Bluesangrel initiated.
• "I am not making a complaint against Bagumba." Quite the contrary, I receive this threat from Bluesangrel at 17:14, 17 September 2015 (UTC): "I know full well that you are cooperating with him in bullying me and also in helping to get my articles deleted. I suggest to you to stop it, or I will include you in my complaint."[201] I'd suggest that Bluesangrel become familiar with WP:NPA: "Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki."
• "I would have to be a complete moron to not see the connection." Not really, you just need to consider that we are trying to apply community standards on notability, and that it is not personal. However, not everyone is comfortable with working with consensus, and there are alternatives to Wikipedia.—Bagumba (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
• XfD background: The following AfDs were recently opened by ArmstrongJulian on articles that Bluesangrel created: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/All-Europe Player of the Year, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/All-Europeans Player of the Year, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/All-Europeans Player of the Year. The first has been closed as delete, and the last two are pending closure. I initiated a TfD for Template:All-Europe Player of the Year after All-Europe Player of the Year had been deleted.

—Bagumba (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

He also opened up one on Greek Basketball Hall of Fame, something you personally are aware of because of this: [202] I read the notability guidelines, and that article did not meet them. So i simply did not contest that. Despite that I was never notified at all of it being nominated like in all the other cases) and despite it git nominated right after Julian got mad at me when I asked him to be careful with his edits at the Michael Bramos article - User talk:ArmstrongJulian#Grammar in your edits and heights and weights of players in infobox templates article. It is interesting that this case is not mentioned, because it did not meet notability, as I read through it, and I did not contest it and i let it go completely. My other articles had/have no reason to be deleted. Including the one that was deleted, in which you claimed it had no external sources, even though it had two external media sources, and was still deleted. So now I am basically being accused of lying, in order to just defend my work here.Bluesangrel (talk) 19:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

"Including the one that was deleted, in which you claimed it had no external sources": If you are referring to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/All-Europe_Player_of_the_Year, I stated that there was "No evidence of independent reliable sources", which is quite different than mere external sources. You can refer to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources and Wikipedia:Independent sources if you are unclear why there is a distinction.—Bagumba (talk) 19:32, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Let's not forget this article either, since you also failed to mention it European Basketball Player of the Year Awards. That's also what Julian called editing like a fan forum. I was told that I source nothing, all my editing is made up, and i edit like I am in a fan forum. Yeah, so naturally let's delete that article also. And why not stop there either right? Of course again, I was not notified of it being nominated, and again, happens after he gets mad at me just for asking him a couple of perfectly normal questions at his talk page, to which he got angry and rude for no reason at all.Bluesangrel (talk) 19:26, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Suggestion If the results of an AfD(s) is being contested, Wikipedia:Deletion review is the proper forum. As I suggested to Bluesangrel earlier at one of the AfDs, pursue WP:HOUND if that is the accusation.[203] And it goes without saying diffs are needed. Otherwise, it's fair to ask if it is Bluesangrel who is the angry one when they posted this at 17:06 before this ANI: "My articles got deleted. Not one person even tried to help in this. I am reporting this to a moderator. This is abusive."[204].—Bagumba (talk) 19:45, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

On your user rights Bagumba it says you are an admin. Is that not correct? I discussed this in detail at that basketball project, and I was under the impression that is correct under Wikipedia guidelines, as these were all basketball articles. And you completely ignored everything. However, you did claim that my deleted article had no external media sources, which was untrue, but that was what you used as justification for it to be deleted right Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/All-Europe Player of the Year https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/All-Europe_Player_of_the_Year&diff=prev&oldid=681406389 "*Delete Fails WP:LISTN. No evidence of independent reliable sources that discuss this grouping. Granted, I might not find these on English websites, and also wouldn't know which ones are reliable. This is the difficulty with dealing with potentially notable subjects covered in predominantly non-English sources. However, no persuasive arguments have been forthcoming either.—Bagumba (talk) 01:04, 17 September 2015 (UTC)" - So what exactly did I do wrong? Shall I give the external media sources here, since now that the article id deleted no one can see them? Or if they were in a foreign language would that not count? The article also had English external sources also as well. You keep giving these instructions from Wikipedia that I am supposed to read and follow, I have already. I did nothing wrong. And is it so much to ask an admin to help a problem? You don't seem to interested in helping this problem.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

"And you completely ignored everything": As I commented above at 19:07,[205] you did not provide the diffs that I request at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball#ArmstrongJulian, and have not provided substantial ones in this ANI yet either.—Bagumba (talk) 20:18, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

"you did claim that my deleted article had no external media sources": Please see my above comment at 19:32 about your mischaracterization of "external sources".[206] Perhaps someone can help facilitate this discussion, because it is unfortunately going in circles.—Bagumba (talk) 20:18, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Bluesangrel Did not need me to make a fool of himself, his accusations are clearly baseless and I'll provide the explanation underneath:

• This started with a discussion on his move (without a proposed move) of the Pallacanestro Treviso article to another (wrong) article, which you can find (here). I politely told him he had been wrong yet he kept arguing without ever providing anything to back it up and I was more straightforward (yet civil) to point out he wasn't making any sense.
• He then came on my talk page to make these accusations about the grammar of one of my edits on the Michael Bramos article when in fact the grammar mistakes were not even mine. At this point I told him to stop creating trouble for nothing as he had also complained about another editor.
• Completely unrelated, I nominated a number of articles for deletion as they did not prove their notability and I could not find any multiple, reliable and independent sources on them. These included articles created by Bluesangrel and other articles, I did not even know he created the articles, just that they clearly did not answer to wikipedia's notability requirement.
• When opposing an article's deletion, he did not provide a single additional reference, instead accusing me (and then others that got involded without me having anything to do with it) of picking on him. His attitude was clearly that of article ownership and WP:ILIKEIT and not in line with wikipedia policy.
• He created a thread making baseless accusations against me (that I was agressive and rude) yet provided nothing to back it up and when I answered to dispel what he had said only replied with hot air (not even providing a single link).
• He has repeatedly created articles or made edits that were based on no sources or a few primary sources, not establishing either notability of the article or providing any other independent sources when prompted (Greece men's national under-21 basketball team and Greece men's national under-17 basketball team for example). And yet he claims, as above, that all his articles are sourced despite everythin pointing to the opposite.

I am sorry, that you were not able to find a site loophole to claim that those articles should be deleted. But I am sure you will try, and that Bagumba will mark it with an "Agree". Keep claiming none of my work has any sources, can be backed up, or deserves an article. You are proving exactly what I am saying here. As are your comments in the history of those articles you posted. Notice how Julian did not mention this article Greece men's national under-18 basketball team. Look at the history, [[207]]. The way he accuses me of editing, is actually how he is doing some edits. Of course, he won't use that as an example, while he is pretending to be some kind of saint here.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

His attitude has gone from annoying to plain disruptive. I could tolerate his inadequate edits but he has now started a whole campaign against me and anyone (like Bagumba) who's tries to reason with him. I'd argue to give him a warning so he realises that he can't do what he wants on here (which is what he is doing when making edits unsourced), hopefully he can start respecting wikipedia policy and other editors afterwards. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 20:21, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

How about any editor here look through Julian's history at any of his edits and any talk page or discussion he was ever involved with. That should pretty much sum up his attitude towards everything. As far as Bagumba goes, he is clearly biased and trying to help Julian without any question. Suggesting Wikipedia is not the place for me, and claiming my article that had external sources did not. I am not wasting one second with either of them, because they are being aggressive towards me and both should be reading all those things they keep posting. Any other editor that wants any diff, or clarification please ask for it. Any background, please ask for it. For now, I am going back to editing, because no one is involved in this right now. But I am not going to involve myself at all with the people causing the problem, and certainly not the one that has been bullying me. But I do expect this to be resolved, and I will provide anything, including the litany of personal insults sent in discussions from Julian to me, which can be given. I am just waiting for anyone to show that they are going to actually do something about this, which so far, no one has. For now, I am going back to editing, I won't engage with Julian, nor if he posting here.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:37, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

"Any background, please ask for it": For the record, GiantSnowman asked for diffs above [208], and Liz and Tide rolls have encouraged you to do so at your talk page.[209] I can only conclude that you either don't have the evidence, or refuse to provide it. Without evidence, going forward, I ask that you refrain from any further accusations of personal behavior that lack evidence. I think WP:DROPTHESTICK applies to your most recent comment at TfD.—Bagumba (talk) 21:02, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I have specifically said, what diffs does anyone want and I will give it. There is a lot to this. So I need to be asked for what specific example they want, so I can give it. I find it interesting how you can find these examples so easy that support Julian, but you can't find a thing to support me, even though all the examples are there. Why is that? Ask me specifically what example it is you want me to provide. You have not done so. You are being purposely vague as possible, and then accusing me of not proving specific info. That's a tactic you are using. Also, it is not Julian's place to suggest I be given a warning, nor was it right for him to nominate articles without notifying me. He's not an admin according to his user rights info.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:16, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Since Julian suggested I be given a warning, just some examples of his general interaction with me and I am sure many others, [[210]] - just one example of basically every single time he posts directed towards me. As far as I know, this is not acceptable interaction in this site. Yet, it is the only kind of interaction he seems to do. At least, it's the only kind he has done with me. I can list the same, except much more aggressive and insulting of many more diffs. But this is just an example of the ones in the articles up for deletion, to which again, I was never even notified. His interactions in personal discussions tend to be much more rude than that, such as something like this,

"@Bluesangrel:I was not going to dignify your first message with an answer, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, you might want to check the difference between grammar and spelling too" ArmstrongJulian (talk) 00:10, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

"No, I'm implying you should try making useful edits (with things called sources) instead of pestering everyone (I note I'm not the only one you've approached) with nonsense accusations. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2015 (UTC)" at his talk page User talk:ArmstrongJulian#Grammar in your edits and heights and weights of players in infobox templates

Again, I can give numerous more examples of this. Just general normal interaction and conversation I supposes though.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I am done with this. Admin you can forget this since obviously no one is going to do anything about this. Bagumba, Julian's obvious friend is the only admin interacting, and just defending him, and making all kinds of accusations against me. This is ridiculous. One last thing though. If any more of my articles get wrongly nominated for deletion by ArmstrongJulian, I am going to file a formal grievance with Wikipedia.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:22, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I didn't quote Greece men's national under-18 basketball team because I didn't want to quote too much articles, it's another example of a poorly sourced article, thanks for providing it. As for the quote above, I'll gladly own up to it, there's nothing wrong in what I said and while it may be blunt I would not call it rude. It's not my role to give warnings or block people, but this whole thread is designed to answer improper behaviour, I didn't want to go down that road but Bluesangrel did and his attitude here is exactly why he should be given a warning. He makes every single one of his grievances a major issue and opens threads all over the place with no clear goal. Besides he still refuses to admit he is not following wikipedia guidelines (saying he'll just go back to editing), I didn't claim he had no place on wikipedia, I said and still say his style of editing (without any reliable, independent sources) has no place here. I just want to make clear (if it wasn't clear enough) that I never allied myself with Bagumba, our only interactions have been though wikiproject basketball which is how he got involved (along with a number of editors) in the deletion discussions, through Bluesangrel's actions everybody has had to get involved as he keeps posting vendetta threads on the project's talk page. --ArmstrongJulian (talk) 21:46, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Boomerang on Bluesangrel

Bluesangrel (talk · contribs) Even after providing allowances for a cooling off period above, it seems that the originator will not drop the WP:STICK. They were already warned above about WP:NPA: "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence". They refused to provide any diffs above, and claimed "I am done with this." (see above at 21:46, 17 September 2015).

This is unfortunately not the case with continued unsubstantiated attacks against ArmstrongJulian:

• 18:57, 18 September "Yet, there it is completely falsely nominated for deletion by the same editor, and even has others agreeing it should be deleted already. This seems to be a pattern involving ArmstrongJulian."

And there are other WP:POINTy comments reflecting a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality of late at AfDs, seemingly out of spite:

• 18:48, 18 September "Let's please put a stop to this kind of behavior, and not allow it to go on."
• 18:43 "It seems a lot of editors here are not following site guidelines perhaps some people should be reported for that?"
• 18:40 "... he meets the standard and deleted the article is a violation of site etiquette and just trying to destroy other editor's work for no reason."
• 18:38 "Actually contribute something, rather than try to destroy everything others created."
• 18:35 "Keep No reason at all to delete this."

—Bagumba (talk) 19:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

• Just let someone INDEPENDENT review whether or not my articles should have ACTUALLY been deleted or not. I provided evidence of an article Julian just nominated for deletion that is not to be deleted under site guidelines. It meets site criteria totally, and yet he still nominated it. It was provided for nothing in a personal attack, but as an example. You keep interfering in this issue. that is why I included you in the discussion. Just allow another admin to please review the deletion independent of yourself. You need to step back from this and do that. I have already contacted the admin that deleted my article and I am waiting for them to discuss it with me. There is no reason for you to keep involving yourself in this, but you insist on it, always backing up Julian and also always coming at me aggressively. So please allow me and the admin that deleted my article the time to discuss this. Otherwise, you are seriously escalating this situation and you are intentionally doing so. Now, every single person here can see the issue at hand. I have already told you I am handling this with another admin. There is no need for you to keep involving and injecting yourself into this.Bluesangrel (talk)

One more comment, I am no longer engaging in any discussion with Bagumba. He is clearly biased and aggressive towards me from the beginning on this. So any further comments he makes or posts he makes here, is all on him continuing to escalate this issue. As I said, it was being taken care of with me and the editor that deleted the article. So, I will not respond to any posts he makes here, because I consider him to be harassing me. P{lease don't take my ignoring him as any rules violation. Any other admin or editor can discuss with me. But I will ignore anything he writes here or anywhere in the site.Bluesangrel (talk) 19:45, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I was trying to discuss this with the admin that deleted my article User:MBisanz because they would be independent and neutral and Bagumba again had to inject themselves into it User_talk:MBisanz#Could you please answer some questions for me? - Bagumba, I will ask you one more time, please allow me and an independent admin to deal with issue and to follow the site guidelines on this and please stop injecting yourself into this over and over. I am asking you again, please stay out of this. You are not helping at all, and you are just making things miserable for me. Please let me and MBisanz discuss the article of mine that they deleted ourselves. Thank you ahead of time for your cooperation Bagumba, if you will have it in your heart to be able to do this.Bluesangrel (talk) 20:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I have a suggestion for Bagumba, Bagumba, your pal is not going to get in trouble for anything, if it was not understood by you and him, I will clarify it now. I am not making a complaint against the editor, but against the wrongful nomination of my hard good work being so carelessly and nonchalantly put for deletion and then deleted, and the very condescending and cavalier attitude about it, when asked why this was being done. Along with the reactions it garnered from someone like you, defending at all cost those actions, and coming at me like I am totally out of line to even wonder about it. It's nothing personal, and it's not a personal complaint, nor intended to get anyone in trouble (if you doubt that I can show you where I already talked to an admin called Liz here at the start of this, and told them I wanted no one to get in trouble over this). It's just trying to get my articles protected from wrongful deletion.

I am trying to handle that away from you with the editor that deleted the article. So just please, leave this alone. OK? This is nothing to do with getting anyone in trouble. It's a dispute about my articles being wrongly deleted and trying to be deleted. Now, please just have the courtesy, the common decent courtesy to allow me to follow through on the site policy of contesting the article deletion. There is no reason to keep reviewing every single comment I make or every single edit I make in the site. If I see a bad edit or policy, or an article falsely put for deletion, or an editor doing something they should not be doing I am allowed to make notice of that and state a comment on it. Nothing nefarious about it. However, the fact that every single time I make a comment or vote on an issue, it seems almost to be used against me as some sort of doing something bad here, is starting to look suspicious to me. So I don't know what it is that has you so angry and upset with me, but relax. I am not angry or upset with anyone here, but I am starting to feel like you are very angry with me. You need an apology for something you think I did? Say so, that is all you have to do. I am a very nice person, and I don't understand this way of dealing with matters. Maybe it was wrong for me to decide not to converse and talk with you, because you went right to the other admin. I thought you would understand that as let us handle it. So let's take a different approach. Talk to me at my talk page, just the two of us. OK? No Julian, no anybody else. Please don't bring Julian or anyone else into it. Let us just have a discussion with each other and then hopefully you can see I am not doing any of the things you seem to think I am doing.Bluesangrel (talk) 21:12, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Bluesangrel, while it stings to have an article one created nominated for a deletion discussion, the nominating editor isn't responsible for the deletion, the participants in the AFD discussion and the discussion closer determine whether it ends in a delete, keep or no consensus decision. The next best move when an article is nominated is to go to the deletion discussion and argue for your article, stating why it should be kept. Listen to the criticism that editors offer, it can help you make the article stronger and less likely to be deleted. The smartest editors work on building up a nominated article while it is being discussed so they can show that it meets notability standards (since this is often the rationale for deletion). If an editor makes a claim that there are no reliable sources, you can show how there are or you can add additional ones that are more acceptable.

Now that the AFD discussions have resulted in deletions, you can talk to the deleting admin (which you have done) and then go to Wikipedia:Deletion review. Most admins are open to userfying deleted articles and putting them into Draft or User space so you can work on improving the content.

Please think of the result you want here which I believe is for your deleted articles to be reconsidered. You accomplish this not by attacking the nominating editor (who you say you are not seeking sanctions against) but by focusing on addressing concerns about your articles and making them more substantial if the reliable sources exist to support them. 21:52, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful input, it is nice to actually get that from someone. I did try to go to the article deletion pages and argue why I did not think they should be deleted, but Bagumba kept saying I should not be allowed to do so, and kept saying it was against site rules to do that. When I persisted he ended up bringing this complaint against me. So It really isn't that easy to argue for the articles when an admin is doing that.Bluesangrel (talk) 22:10, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

But maybe he Bagumba will talk with me about this at my talk page. Then if whatever Bagumba's issues are with me would get resolved, I can hopefully get the admin that deleted the article to discuss it with me.Bluesangrel (talk) 22:12, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@Bluesangrel: Perhaps you are referred to this comment I made made about multiple !votes? Typically a participant only bolds one !vote. Not that a discussion is done by merely counting votes, but it's just the (unwritten?) norm. Sorry, if you were not already aware. Feel free to add additional comments. I typically just add "<b>Comment</b>" if I have more to say, or you can just not bold anything in front. However, it can sometimes be counterproductive to WP:REPEAT the same argument also. Use your best judgement.—Bagumba (talk) 22:28, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Bagumba, with all due respect, you should not be making an editor feel like they can't defend their article and discuss it and why it is being nominated for deletion, particularly when several of their articles are being nominated at the same time, all by the same editor, and no notice was given for any of them being nominated. Any editor here is going to wonder about that and want to discuss it and defend their article, also when they are told that they edited with no sources, they edited like they were using a fan forum and so forth. So when things like that are happening, I am sorry, but it takes more than just one or two posts, or oppositions. And it's really not fair for you to make the editor with the articles being up for deletion to feel like that are in the wrong for even doing so.Bluesangrel (talk) 22:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment

• Wiki Greek Basketball (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) long ago community banned disruptive editor
• Euroleague Basketball Project (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) sock of above
• Bluesangrel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Using the lab comparison tools HERE and HERE you can see many many overlaps between this set of editors. Both share also a belligerent attitude and focus on basketball with extra interest in greek topics. Coincidences? (NB before anyone accuses me of being a sock, I have a wildly dynamic IPaddr and no account to log into.) --2.96.177.115 (talk) 06:16, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I am being threatened by this editor

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Last warning[edit] If you undo a revert of mine once more without first establishing consensus, I'll have you blocked. Do I make myself clear? Wikipedia, including me specifically as the editor who seems to notice most of your edits, will not tolerate an editor who is not willing to edit in a community-friendly way.

You have all the relevant links to Wikipedia policies and guidelines on this talkpage, I have pointed you to the error of your ways. Now bare the consequences. Debresser (talk) 14:58, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, in case you misunderstand. If you think that you're right, and that your edit is "clearly justified", that does not make it so. The only thing that makes it so is WP:CONSENSUS. Do you fucking get me now?! Debresser (talk) 14:59, 17 September 2015 (UTC) Johnmcintyre1959 (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

It would be helpful to provide diffs substantiating this. GAB^Hello! 21:37, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Never mind, I've found them: [211][212] GAB^Hello! 21:44, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Those warnings were pretty out of line. Maybe Debresser should be sanctioned himself. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 00:36, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Those warnings were way out of line. I know having to deal with newcomers is hard sometimes, and I, myself, struggle with them but not like this. I don't know if a warning is sufficient for such behavior? Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 00:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

A strong warning at the very least. GAB^Hello! 00:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

You would expect an editor with over 80K edits and on the encyclopedia seven years to have both a better rein on his temper and a clue about WP:BITE. Then again, he's got a bit of a block log. Ravenswing 01:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Exactly what I was thinking. However, the block log dates from 2011. We're in 2015. Although, the log does explain a lot about the user's history and it seems to not to be the first time it has happened. I would oblige and give a warning, though I wouldn't know what kind. I am debating on personal attacks or don't bite warning? Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:14, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest Johnmcintyre1959 stop edit warring for a bit and use the article talk page(s). That's highly likely to improve Debresser's response. NE Ent 01:40, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring or not, it does not excuse for using such a harsh tone. An EW warning would had suffice. If it continued, then AN/3RR is the place. There is no excuse to be uncivil like that. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 01:50, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

• The tone was over harsh, someone should trout him. However, I note that the reporting editor has engaged in rather aggressive behavior, which does not excuse the snap but does help explain it. I suggest both cool off and stop reverting each other and let other cooler heads do so if needed. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 02:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Per Carlossuarez, the fact that one person is wrong has no bearing on the wrongness of another person. Merely because the OP edit wars does not absolve other behavioral violations by other users, including @Debresser:. That is, no matter what rules person A breaks, person B is not absolved of their own rule violations. Has anyone notified him of this conversation, by the way? --Jayron32 02:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Debresser has been notified of the ANI thread. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 02:47, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Long reply by Debresser

I can appreciate the fact that Johnmcintyre1959 feels a little less than welcome on Wikipedia, but as my fellow editors have already noted above,[213][214] that is to be expected if an editor ignores what started as friendly explanations of the right way to edit on Wikipedia, and when those were actively and aggressively ignored, evolved into increasingly serious warnings. There is nothing wrong with warning an editor with sanctions against behavior that is detrimental to the project.

Just to show you the history a bit:

Johnmcintyre1959 started with this edit, which I then reverted with a nice explanation in the edit summary. This same explanation I have since repeated on the talkpage, and I believe it is in perfect accordance with Wikipedia guidelines and common sense. That didn't stop Johnmcintyre1959 to insist on his opinion another time. Another editor has already agreed with me, and that issue is now closed, I hope. It is a shame, Johnmcintyre1959 feels the need to disagree only with me.

Please also notice that after his second undo of my revert, I took the trouble to post him a warning about edit warring on his talkpage, and there I noticed that he had recently been warned for edit warring before, and then I also noticed that he had done the same on a few more articles, [215][216][217] so I added to the warning, advising him to ask for community input at WT:JUDAISM before "fixing" things on Wikipedia. Johnmcintyre1959 has stated that he considers that "not very useful advice". Please notice that to this date he has not posted there.

Then he continued on the same article with other edits along the same lines: For example this edit, which I was able to improve here , and then he made another such edit here. Then he made another edit like that here. Now, I am all in favor of improvement, but this editor seems to have an agenda. Please note, that I have not reverted these edits, as they are indeed improvements, but they show a certain point.

After that, the same thing happened on another article, where Johnmcintyre1959 made what he considers to be an improvement, which I undid, with a good explanation in the edit summary, and he reverted again. Note that by this time he had already been warned on his talkpage about edit warring. I even added a whole lecture about consensus here. In the discussion about his edit on the talkpage, another editor has already agreed with my reason for objecting to Johnmcintyre1959's edit (stylistic), calling it "quite raw and not carefully edited".

Now, it just happens to be that this editor edits articles about Judaism, which I happen to have on my watchlist, and about which subject I am quite knowledgeable. I hope that there is no doubt that it is a coincidence that it just happens to be me who is reverting him, since there aren't that many editors who are active in the field of Judaism-related articles as there used to be a few years ago.

After I had noticed the same pattern of edit warring by this editor in three separate instances on two articles, I understood that he needs strong warnings, so I obliged here. That warning was still very nicely worded and referred to the relevant policy of WP:CONSENSUS.

If all of that is not enough to show the picture: a new editor, who does not want to respect the community, but rather prefers to have his own way on Wikipedia, then the following example will show you that Johnmcintyre1959 is not a good faith editor: In this edit, he shows he is stalking my edits (he never contributed to that page before), and reverted my undo of a recent controversial (and in my opinion incorrect) edit, again preferring the edit war over discussion. I think this edit shows the problem of this editor better than any my explanation.

By the way, I agree that my following edit to his talkpage used stronger words, but I have seen that same word on Wikipedia before, and when I complained about it at this very WP:ANI a few years ago, it was explained to me that it is perfectly fine to used this word! If you want, I can look up that discussion for you, but it would take hours. Suffice it to say that one of the admins in that discussion used the f-word himself, so let's not be hypocritical, please.

I apologize for the long reply, however I am confident that only by showing the history I could explain why it was necessary to act the way I did. I am willing to undo my aforementioned edit to his talkpage and remove the f-word, but I stand by my opinion that my reverts and warnings to him were justified and in accordance with all Wikipedia polices and guidelines in view of Johnmcintyre1959's behavior, and think that any other editor would have done the same in my place. In light of this, I would appreciate it if my fellow editors would stress to Johnmcintyre1959, that his behavior was indeed such as to warrant my response (again, with the exception of the one edit I am willing to undo), and that he must change his editing pattern, if he wants to continue contributing to this project. Debresser (talk) 09:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Please do undo the edit; can you like to the prior ANI discussion you reference, or at least indicate the approximate time frame? NE Ent 10:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

This was years ago, possibly as much as five years ago. I remember it clearly, because I found it rather unpleasant at the time, and admit I'm a little ashamed I let my frustration with this editor get the best of me (however much I think he is an edit warrior, at least at this stage of his Wikipedia career). I'll undo it now. Done.[218] Debresser (talk) 10:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Please also notice that Johnmcintyre1959 had recently been warned about edit warring before, as I just now added to the text above (including diff). Debresser (talk) 10:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Comment on the use of "fuck": Ctrl-F for "fuck" on this page gives you right now 7 results in 3 threads. This thread, someone complaining about being called a fuckwit and getting an apology in "I am being threatened by this editor" thread, and (in my opinion) the magnificent sentence fragment from User Carrite: "... to STOP USING THE FUCKING QUOTE FUNCTION OF THE CITATION TEMPLATE and he fucking won't listen and if ..." in the "Robert Martinson problems" thread. No one blinked an eye. The reception of the word seems uneven. ghytred talk 11:03, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Context matters. The use of the word "fuck", as a word, is not a problem. The use of the word "fuck" in the context of aggression or as an attempt to intimidate others is a problem. "Please stop doing that" is fine. "Fucking stop doing that" adds a layer of intimidation and aggression to the interaction which is unacceptable for its incivility. It is not merely the use of fuck, as I am doing here in this discussion of the word, is not in itself a problem, because I am not using to intimidate you or anyone else. If I said "Shut the fuck up, I'll say fuck whenever I want!!!" then I would be. I am not doing that, so it is not incivil. --Jayron32 14:26, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I agree that "context matters", but this is an interesting discussion. Is civility a function of interpretation or is incivility clearly marked by red flags that can't be ignored? Is civility a function of the collection of "community" weighing in on a question or is incivility a constant, unvarying by the vagaries of who happens to be present for the evaluation of possible incivility? I don't know the answer to my self-posed questions. But I think some words should be banned. It doesn't have to be "fuck". It could be almost any word. By banning a word we express to ourselves that context does not necessarily matter. We are almost an entirely verbal community. How can "fucking stop doing that" add a "layer of intimidation"? Rarely does the online world intersect with the real world. "Intimidation" may be intended and "intimidation" may be perceived but intimidation is rarely if ever real. Bus stop (talk) 15:15, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Another question is, how civil do we have to be with editors who ignore the rules of editing? Edit warring is also a form of aggression, and a most detrimental form for Wikipedia. Debresser (talk) 15:25, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

"Please get these logical principles of collective editing into your skull asap, because I am running out of patience with editors who keep insisting that their ideas of what is right and wrong are what should determine the text, rather than consensus." If you were being impatient, why did you even bother with a final warning? Secondly, if the user was edit warring, you didn't bother to report them to 3RR or EW. No matter what the conditions are, your comments were way out of line and uncivil. Using profanity to intimidate a user is bordering to personal attacks and regardless your intentions, which were wrong, it was unacceptable. "Do you fucking get me now?" The solution is to a) back away if tension rises or b) report them to boards. EW is considered agression, but playing with fire with fire gets you a bigger fire. Just because EW is aggression does not mean to be harsh or rude is acceptable. "This is your last warning. Please stop." is the best answer anyone can come up with, as per Jayron32. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 15:35, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Callmemirela—you say "If you were being impatient, why did you even bother with a final warning?" When someone says they are "running out of patience" they are not necessarily saying that they have run out of patience. You are nitpicking. "Impatience" is a general term without specific markings for quantity or quality. Bus stop (talk) 16:13, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not defending Debresser's comment but a few of our most active admins make liberal use of the word "fucking" such as "fucking stop it or I'll block you next time." I'm not posting diffs to report them because I sense the sentiment comes out of frustration, not malice. I wanted to post a reminder that sanctions can set a precedent and given that I see frequent "for fucks sake", "fuck it", "I've had fucking enough of this shit", etc. every week, we might be returning to this issue on a regular basis. Debresser apologized, said he would remove the comment and explained the context of the remark, I think that should be sufficient. I think it would be a personal attack if this was an example of typical behavior towards Johnmcintyre1959 but I see Debresser trying to communicate with him and getting little response except at Talk:Rosh Hashanah#Origins. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:22, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Was: IBAN. Is now: lame edit war

Frankly I think this edit and particularly its edit summary have strayed over the line into WP:POINT (to say nothing of WP:LAME). I can't make up my mind whether this is blockable idiocy or just idiocy though. Guy (Help!) 08:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

So you're calling the editor an idiot, and wonder if you should block them... for what? A personal attack?! Is this thing on? Doc talk 08:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

For iBAN violations, Doc. And his comments were re editing behavior, not re a person. You're not helpful here and seem to want to kick up drama - why don't you shoo!? IHTS (talk) 08:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Not helpful to you maybe. That don't mean much to me. Doc talk 09:03, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Guy your two mentions of "idiocy" should either be clearly substantiated or struck. See idiot, idiot definition and WP:CIVIL. I find it painful that you start with mention of IBAN and then introduce discussion like this. GregKaye 13:48, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Ask yourself this. Who does more to improve the encyclopedia, someone who finds original sources, cites them, and generally puts a lot of time and effort into improving an article, maybe even up to GA standard, or someone who interferes with this work by carrying on a 2 year old feud and sniping from the sidelines? Not to mention admin shopping, you're the third he's tried. Damn right it's lame, as is this thread. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Ask yourself this: do we give a toss? Your edit comes across as petulant and motivated by the identity of the editor not the actual content. And, to be absolutely clear, the idiocy is bilateral: you are both behaving ridiculously. Guy (Help!) 09:14, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

So you don't give a toss about improving the encyclopedia. OK. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

No, I just don't give a toss about self-serving excuses. Every single restricted editor ever has probably thought at some level that they were improving the encyclopaedia. The whole point of restrictions such as IBANs is that the editors are engaged in good-faith editing - otherwise they'd simply be blocked. Guy (Help!) 10:27, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

^ "...the idiocy is bilateral: you are both behaving ridiculously". What a cop-out. Keep calling editors "idiots", as an admin. It will make us all look swell. Doc talk 09:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh good, a one-man peanut gallery. Guy (Help!) 10:27, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

For the record, the edit in question, not only an intentional iBAN violation, was not an improvement but a disimprovement. (I have the hardcover, out-of-print book. I expect few others have it. In it, Lasker says Black's move 15...d2! is "better", not "probably the best". Any chessplayer knows the difference. So the edit actually is inconsistent with the source.) IHTS (talk) 09:25, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

So, despite what Guy says, you are not behaving ridiculously, and MaxBrowne is. That clarifies a lot! Doc talk 09:35, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Wow, IMO, this thread just gets worse. This is not normal for AN/I. GregKaye 13:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

On 26 Dec 2013 IHTS inserted a wiklink to "Checkmate". On 28 Aug 2015 MaxBrowne removes it. WP:IBAN clearly states: editor X is not permitted to "undo editor Y's edits to any page (whether by use of the revert function or by other means);" MaxBrowne has therefore violated a i-ban they requested. NE Ent 09:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

NE Ent! Yay! Thankfully you've come in to save the day. You, frankly, rawk!!! Doc talk 09:50, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Somebody clearly has a lot of time on his hands. MaxBrowne (talk) 09:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

About that particular edit, I saw it too previously, but let it slide because it was so minor (and probably an improvement by the other editor). But the three incidents of overlaying text I added, I did/do object to, they haven't been improvements and now a disimprovement. It's true iBAN was never something I wanted, advising that it effectively can become a roving topic ban. (And duh, that seems to be the frustration at hand, then wanting to have it both ways.) IHTS (talk) 10:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

"I want the terms of the IBAN, and the consequences of violating them, to be very clearly spelled out to avoid any gaming of the system. The terms being: (1) No posting to each others user page or talk page (2) No replying to each other in discussions (3)No referring to each other directly or indirectly anywhere on wikipedia. (4) No undoing each other's edits (but we can edit the same articles so long as we keep to the terms of the iban). Basically as described in WP:IBAN and WP:BANEX. MaxBrowne (talk) 12:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)". IHTS (talk) 10:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Frankly, by this stage I think you are both gaming the system. The IBAN should either be vacated or enforced, and in this case enforcement will almost certainly lead to blocks of both of you. Guy (Help!) 10:31, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

@JyZ/Guy, you openend this ANI on the basis of a revert which was intentional violation of iBAN (which was also, as shown, not an improvement but a disimprovement). How does one go about asking for enforcement of an iBAN they never wanted, when there is intentional flippant violation of it, without being accused by you of "gaming the system"? IHTS (talk) 19:01, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

All the edits complained about were made in good faith with the aim of improving the article, and were certainly not done with any intention of insulting, annoying or in any way "interacting" with the other editor. I don't think it should be necessary to search through the history of an article just in case an edit I'm about to make may overwrite some text written by an editor I'm in IBAN with 5 years ago. And for the record, I won't object (and haven't objected) if this editor in good faith overwrites some text I happen to have written in the past. Because I'm not petty like that. The point of an IBAN is to prevent disruption, not to enable petty point scoring and drama-mongering. The IBAN was imposed at my request because the constant sniping and outright abuse I was receiving from this editor was becoming intolerable. He is now using the IBAN as a weapon to snipe at me. The last edit I made to that article - sorry about that, but when you're working hard to make a good article and someone else just wants to make a nuisance of himself and start drama - it's easy to act hastily. Finally I note that this admin has previously told me "a plague on both your houses", and indicated that he "doesn't give a toss" about my content creation. He previously closed an ANI thread on the present issue inappropriately and prematurely, before it had been properly resolved. He is definitely WP:INVOLVED, and should not be the party to impose any blocks or even warnings. Neutral admin eyes are needed for this. MaxBrowne (talk) 11:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

MaxBrowne Can you see that an edit summary as: "Go to ANI or get lost" would better have been phrased differently? I see a potential here for a block having only considered the issue of civility but in a timespan of hours or days. GregKaye 13:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

A single edit out of context does not tell the whole story. This is an editor who has intentionally violated and expressed his contempt for the IBAN numerous times. Despite the IBAN he has continued to find ways to niggle me. This current excercise in petty point scoring seems to be aimed at getting the IBAN lifted, which I vehemently oppose as I have seen no change of attitude from this editor, just the same petty argumentativeness. MaxBrowne (talk) 14:10, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I'm the one on receiving end of petty sniping in editsum, and in this thread as you can see above, besides numerous times elsewheres, by the other editor, all while an iBAN is supposedly in place. Also the edit at Chess included undos of texts I'd previously written, which I also let slide. IHTS (talk) 18:50, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The edit summary is clearly a violation of the interaction ban between MaxBrowne and Ihardlythinkso, and, thus, on its own, to my eyes is sufficient cause for a block of some length. It seems to be the first violation of the I-ban (correct me if I'm wrong, of course), so it could reasonably be a short one on that basis. Having said that, the at best dubious civility of the comment could not unreasonably lengthen the block. I might say three days in this case, maybe? John Carter (talk) 19:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

If you ignore the revert, which was intentional iBAN violation, then might you be encouraging more of same in future? IHTS (talk) 19:51, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

My apologies for the phrasing. I wasn't ignoring the revert. But, for the first violation of an i-ban, I think the threshold is somewhat lower. In this case, I guess I was figuring one day block for the violation. The language, over and above the factual reversion, is I think cause enough to lengthen the comparatively short first block. Of course, if others think that the "base" block of one day isn't long enough, and I can well imagine I am not current on such things, no longer being an admin myself, I could reasonably guess it might be longer, although I would still think that the language used in the violation is sufficiently concerning to extend the "base" block to some degree. John Carter (talk) 20:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarify. I don't know why these iBAN violations can't be handled by admins independent of ANI. Why is wide participation needed when a single admin can do something to enforce iBAN when there are violations? I asked admin Blade for help to stop the violations. He didn't. I brought to attention to admin JyZ/Guy that the revert was inconsistent with his previous ANI close. In response he opens this ANI about the revert, then without cause changes course to bad-mouth and recommend blocks. When he was at liberty to simply take his own action, or discuss with me at at his Talk. People talk about the virtue of minimizing drama & disruption; however, their actual behaviors seem constructed to maximize it. IHTS (talk) 20:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The ANI thread I raised earlier was to complain about this edit, which was a direct revert of my edit and a clearcut IBAN violation. Despite my calm language, the admin, the very one who raised this thread, refused to take any action and told me "stop bickering". This edit also directly addressed me in the editsum and so is also a clearcut IBAN violation, and was a partial revert of this edit which I'd made. Sorry, I shouldn't have acted as I did, I guess I should have raised another ANI - after my last experience though I didn't have much hope that anything would get done. All of the drama is being initiated by the other party, and unfortunately facilitated by this rather uncivil admin, who should recuse himself from any further involvement in this thread. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:22, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

And you respond by continuing to revert right back. You are clearly an intelligent person, why are you unable to see that all you are doing is making it impossible to say that X violated the IBAN or Y violated the IBAN, but only that both X and Y violated the IBAN and are now behaving like kids called before teacher after a schoolyard fight? It is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Guy (Help!) 23:55, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The word "continuing" is not accurate here since I have not previously done that. You were wrong to close the previous ANI before the issue had been properly resolved; this led me to take things into my own hands instead of raising another ANI like I should have done. You were also wrong to initiate the current ANI given your "involved" status. You initiated this ANI with an incivility, and have continued in the same vain. If anyone deserves to be blocked from this whole sorry business it's you. MaxBrowne (talk) 00:06, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

This forum (ANI) shouldn't be used by an editor in iBAN, to make derogatory remarks about another editor they are in iBAN with. That isn't "gaming the system"?! I'm not allowed "equal time", I have plenty to point out if I were, but also have no desire or taste to get into it. This one-sided slamming should be stopped. The editor did this previously in a previous ANI too, so much so that a neutral editor created a new essay about it, that an ANI about iBAN violation is no excuse for making incendiary comments about the other editor. (I can't put my finger on the essay at the moment.) IHTS (talk) 20:22, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Now the user is attempting to re-hash in this ANI, a topic (revert) addressed in a previous ANI (now closed) that they opened on it. (I'm supposed to respond all over again here, when I completely already responded there?!) IHTS (talk) 23:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

"Please delete my account"

User:Mohamed shafiq mustafa This user seeks only to have his account "deleted" ([219], [220]) and does not seem to be responding to messages at his talk page. As he has never made a constructive contribution and has seven times made a disruptive edit to WP:FAQ, I suggest we should help him by implementing the WP:VANISH procedures, i.e. deleting user subpages and renaming the account, then blocking it: Noyster (talk), 11:11, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:CVUT, a better place for this may be WP:MfD or WP:BN. All the best, Miniapolis 22:04, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Martimc123/LovedGuy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This all started when Martimc123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) kept reposting articles that were deleted via AfDs, namely:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Novus (professional wrestling)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Road to Keiji Muto Tournament
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arukas Cup Six Man Tag Tournament

The first reposts appeared mere hours after the original deletions and were speedily deleted. Now they've re-appeared and have been nominated for speedy deletions again. Some of these reposts have slightly altered names such as Road to Keiji Mutoh Tournument, Road to Keiji Mutoh Tournument (wrestle-1) and Arukas cup six man tag tournament, while Novus (professional wrestling) uses the same name. When I explained the user that he can't repost articles that were deemed not notable (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Martimc123&oldid=681618720), he responded in a talk page of one of the articles that was nominated for speedy deletion (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Road_to_Keiji_Mutoh_Tournument_%28wrestle-1%29&oldid=681619180), basically stating that he would create another account and keep reposting the articles, if he was reported for this, before blanking my talk page. Some ten minutes later a new account LovedGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appeared and he keeps repeatedly removing the speedy deletion tags off the pages. Based off his edit history, this is very clearly Martimc123's new account. I think this calls for an IP block. リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen) (LOLTNA) 11:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

LovedGuy just recreated Arukas Cup Six Man Tag Tournument immediately after it was speedied. リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen) (LOLTNA) 13:05, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked Martimc123 for two weeks and LovedGuy indefinitely. Any further disruptive activity will result in an indef block. Thanks for reporting, -- Diannaa (talk) 14:06, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. リボン・サルミネン (Ribbon Salminen) (LOLTNA) 15:18, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Zoffio

User:Alexf suggested I post here.

Nutshell: Likely viable draft created by master now worked on by socks.

I've spent half an hour on this at least. Could someone please give me some ideas how to wrap this up? Move it to the mainspace to face coi editing? Delete draft (grounds?) ? Ideas?

• Draft:Zoffio
• Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Zoffioindia (see evidence part)
• User talk:Zoffioindia
• User talk:Anna Frodesiak#Rama2050
• User talk:Alexf#Zoffio

Please take any action you see fit.

Many thanks,

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:04, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

User:Zoffioindia is blocked for spamusername, which is asserting both that the user name is bad and the apparent intentions are bad. Socking around the block should be considered disruptive. It's hard to stop the IP socking, but Draft:Zoffio should be semiprotected. If this leads to the person actually paying attention and reading our policies, then some relief could be provided. If not, then an MfD of the draft can be the next step. Under the language of EVASION you can just barely make an argument that G5 applies. The reasoning is ingenious but convoluted. EdJohnston (talk) 16:52, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi EdJohnston:

• I was struggling to make G5 fit, but couldn't. One minute "page", the next "edit". Sneaky. :) I agree with your views on that.
• Eventual MfD may work, but it is probably notable, so not sure about that.
• Zoffioindia blocked and the SPI should wrap up the rest.
• Semiprotect! Of course! This is the genius of EdJohnston (...or maybe the dullness of Anna. For it was right under my nose.)

Thank you so, so much!! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks and harassment from User:Eightball

First I should say this is a "result" of the discussion some sections above at #User continually reverts correct edits

User:Eightball has during this continously used personal attacks and after recieving [221] this final warning. He continued making this edit calling me a "troll" and saying "I will not rest until you have been punished or banned" which is serious. At WP:ARV I was told to go here.

The editor has also called me a vandal, said to an other editor that I am insane, called me petulant baby and more.

Also he has been forumshopping on multiple places to get me blocked (harrassment), for example

• WikiProject Football
• ANI (above)
• User talk:R45
• ARV
• User talk:NeilN
• User talk:JMHamo

This type of personal attacks, harrassment and forumshopping is not okay, I welcomce proper discusssion but when admin said "no" in the discussion he opened above he should not have gone after me. Qed237 (talk) 14:42, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I have not personally attacked you. I firmly believe that you edit in bad faith and without any intent to improve articles or to contribute to the community. I have yet to see an administrator satisfactorily handle these complaints. Eightball (talk) 15:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Okay, Eightball. Any more statements like the above and this admin will block you. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:28, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Try and read info and diffs provided, you can not say that you have not made personal attacks when you have called me a "troll" and "petulant baby" and more. Those are clear personal attacks. Also several editors have not made any action to me after the discussion, so please just drop it and stop harassing me. You can not go around everywhere until you find one editor that agree with you. Qed237 (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

NeilN, I'm genuinely asking: what is wrong with the above? It is in no way intended to be an attack or insulting. It is merely an observation of Qed237's pattern of editing. Eightball (talk) 15:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

(non admin observation) civility is required. Personal attacks have no place on WP. The diffs show personal attacks. If there are issues with another editor bring them to a noticeboard. Dont call them names or comment on them. Stay on the topic of the article and the content. AlbinoFerret 15:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Eightball, in the little over two years Qed237 has been here, he has over 47,000 edits. If he was a vandal ("you edit in bad faith and without any intent to improve articles or to contribute to the community") he would have been blocked a long time ago. Your over-the-top rhetoric has crossed into personal attacks. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:43, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think any of you have any understanding of how frustrating it is to see an editor behave in a manner that so obviously hurts the quality of specific articles, hurts new editors, and damages the wiki as a whole, and see everyone else spring to his defense simply because what he's doing technically isn't against the rules. All I'm asking is for you to look objectively at the facts, ignore wiki policies for a second (are we not capable of developing new ideas?), and truly ask yourself: are Qed237's actions in the best interest of Wikipedia? I fail to see how they possibly could be. I do not think he is intentionally saying, "Heh, I'm gonna make pages worse." But I think he, and many others, are too singularly focused on enforcing the rules exactly as they are written, without any consideration of how those same rules can be enforced in much more productive ways.

I tried approaching this directly with Qed237 and he ignored me. I tried raising this within Wikiproject Football - which seemed very reasonable to me, as it was the affected project - only for him to revert all of my posts. I tried contacting the administrators only to have my real point effectively ignored. Tell me: what do you expect me to do? I'm not simply going to sulk away and have him continue to revert people who are trying to help. Are we not all on the same team here? No one has EVER explained to me why Qed237 can't simply correct the timestamps, educate the editor, and report anyone who is a continual problem child. Why is that not the PERFECT outcome of all of this? Eightball (talk) 16:01, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

I expect you to, or rather strongly suggest that you drop the stick, calm yourself, start listening, and move on, because you're facing a block for your own behavior sooner rather than later. You're not the only one on Wikipedia to ever to reach a complete impasse in a dispute, but most of us are able to let it go when our frustration gets the better of us and we start tending towards disruption. Your crusade to have Qed punished because you disagree with him is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Swarm ♠ 16:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I have had absolutely no interaction with this editor until this afternoon; but when informed that statements such as QED is an obvious troll and people like him desperately need to be purged from this site are unwelcome, he responds immediately with what can only be called WP:BATTLEGROUND behaviour, here. _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 16:45, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
• Note: I have closed the above discussion. -- Orduin ^Discuss 19:59, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

"Your crusade to have Qed punished" I am not crusading to have him punished. No punishment is necessary. He just needs to be told to stop. Eightball (talk) 21:44, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's an idea @Eightball:, why don't you stop and WP:DROPTHESTICK, then this whole conversation can be archived and forgotten about. JMHamo (talk) 22:14, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Your own words contradict that notion. Nobody agrees that such an ultimatum is warranted and it's not going to happen. You're the one being told to stop now, lest you end up blocked. Swarm ♠ 05:06, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Selfie Shoes

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Borcker (talk • contribs) 15:55, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:NOTHERE? Kleuske (talk) 16:09, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sorry if this is carrying bureaucracy too far, but I don't think a block is a vandalism on the account is appropriate. While I haven't checked every contribution, I checked several and did not find a single example of vandalism. That said, my guess is this individual is interested in using Wikipedia for promotion purposes, and up with that we will not put. They may or may not be able to contribute positively (I lean toward not) but they've now been labeled as a vandal which isn't supported by any evidence I have seen. Selfie shoes exist. We aren't here to be their marketing outlet, but attempting to write about them is not necessarily vandalism.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:57, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

You may want to reconsider. The "selfie shoes" in question refers to a 2015 April Fools' Day hoax that went viral. Viriditas (talk) 21:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

According to what source were the selfie shoes clear heels? That was part of the problem: the same barely-cohesive text kept going into an unrelated article. —C.Fred (talk) 21:41, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Their edits don't make any sense. If I transcend my mind and try to see if from their perspective, it seems like they were engaging in OR, trying to compare designs without proper sources. This is more of a competency block, however. Viriditas (talk) 21:53, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

User MisterMorton

I left this report at AVI but was told to come here. MisterMorton (talk · contribs) has a long history of removing standard parameters from infoboxes without explanation, including Natonality and Alma Mater or other educational parameters, even if inclusion of this information is not controversial or challenged. Examples: [222], [223], [224], [225], [226], [227], [228], [229], [230], [231], and this one after the most recent warning [232]. Has edited for four years but never leaves an edit summary and never discusses on article or user talk pages. Has received numerous warnings from several editors about all of these problems, but does not respond. Thanks. Sundayclose (talk) 19:26, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Trying to discuss with the user. — Earwig ^talk 20:39, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Adelelmus of Flanders

As the English article for Adelelmus of Flanders has been a stub for some time and had been suggested to merge with Bernard of Thiron from February 2015, I attempted to start the merger discussion, which was left open for some time, and I also notified both editors who had been most heavily active in the page's process. I was not aware (did not notice, really) that to merge one specifically did need input from an uninvolved editor and Midas02 evidently has strong opinions otherwise but has not contributed substantially to the article in any form to indicate an interested in the article's expansion; and in which case, the article would be less likely to be merged. I do not believe that this editor is open to rational discussion and request input on the projected merger of the stub from an administrator. Ladysif (talk) 21:04, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, it is confusing because there is a notice on Adelelmus of Flanders to merge the article with Bernard of Thiron and another one to merge it with Tironensian Order. So far, there is almost no discussion on either talk page (and the merge discussion should be directed to just one talk page not two) so there is no need to administrator's opinion. Merge discussions usually go on for a few weeks so it's early into this one. What this discussion needs is not an admin but some more uninvolved editors weighing in and it would help if you posted notices about the discussion on the related WikiProjects to bring more editors over to participate in the discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:03, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Mavsfan123

I'm strongly suspecting a lack of WP:COMPETENCE from Mavsfan123 (talk · contribs). Starting in August 2014, they were crapping out sub-stub level articles with no wiki formatting, sources, or categories, such as this. All of their articles since then have had unnecessary disambiguation in the titles, no sourcing, and almost no content; compare this entry over a year later. They previously got an ANI thread in March and promised to do better, but as the Find Me a Baby link shows, they are clearly not learning, nor willing to converse with other editors. They have also had all of their contributions deleted from Commons for repeatedly failing to understand copyright policies; see here. In short, this user is just continuing to make a total mess of Wikipedia, refuses to learn how to edit properly even after promising to do so several months ago, and clearly has zero idea of our policies and guidelines despite having been here for well over a year. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 00:13, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Long-term "destructive" editing by User:Spshu

User:Spshu has been showing severe WP:OWNERSHIP issues in regards to numerous articles and particularly in regards to sourcing. This is characterized by large-scale WP:EDITWARRING and an unwillingness to abide by global consensus, now also joined by a general refusal to engage in reasonable discussion. I have attempted to explain the actual standards for reliable sources on Wikipedia by referring to policy (see the talk pages of the various articles mentioned below) but he simply refuses to listen.

The list of articles this highly disruptive editor has all but destroyed (or tried to destroy) in his quest for "pure enough" sources to meet his impossibly-high personal standards for reliable sourcing is long, but here is an attempt to list the most prolific ones: Template:Corus Entertainment, Disney XD (Canada), Teletoon at Night, Télétoon la nuit, Disney Channel (Canada), and La chaîne Disney. He has edit warred not only against my edits made to these articles, but also those of at least one other established editor (User:ViperSnake151), and additionally a significant number of anonymous editors (see the template's history for that).

His talk page is full of complaints against him from other editors, particularly in regards to collegiality, or lack thereof. I would highly suggest taking a look at the NUMEROUS reports against him at WP:AN3RR and related noticeboards, the latest of which resulted in a block (the relevant ones in this case came from myself and User:ViperSnake151): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Spshu&prefix=Wikipedia%3AAdministrators%27+noticeboard&fulltext=Search

It is extremely difficult to edit constructively when someone just comes along and removes a bunch of well-sourced, highly notable content without much justification, or indeed practically no justification at all as is now the case. (This is especially true given that the user in question had never edited some of these articles before I reverted his edits on some of the other ones... WP:HOUNDING, anyone?) If this user is not stopped Wikipedia risks losing a lot of articles to his disruptive – or perhaps I should say destructive – editing. Mdrnpndr (talk) 00:15, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Even though we've since compromised by using completely different wording, this editor's continued insistence and ownership had also occured on FYI (TV channel) (as there were two seperate pages due to disagreements over whether the network's previous history would be contained within the same article), and American Sports Network (where the editor continued to assert through an interpretation of sources that this was actual television network and not a syndication package). ViperSnake151  Talk  02:46, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Disgusting spammer

Editor blocked by Ed. ElKevbo (talk) 01:24, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Can some please block this disgusting spammer attempting to use Wikipedia to advertise an item for sale that capitalizes on a tragedy? Thanks. ElKevbo (talk) 00:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I fixed your link to something more directly helpful. This diff shows the problem, and the account should be indeffed ASAP. There is no need for a formal notice in a case like this. Johnuniq (talk) 00:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Added a warning in the time being. Callmemirela 🍁 {Talk} ♑ 00:59, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked this user. -- Ed (Edgar181) 01:15, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. ElKevbo (talk) 01:24, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Questionable contributions

Does anyone know what to make of Pureromblomanon's contributions? Right now, s/he has been creating articles by the minute that are presumably supposed to be about different high schools but instead all they contain are the same category with no actual article content. Normally I would file such behavior under newbie mistakes, but all the warnings, etc on his/her talk page seem to suggest that it might just be disruptive editing. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:02, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

The number of speedy deletion notices on their talk page is indeed concerning, but I think the appropriate action for now is to strongly advise the user to read WP:YFA, create userspace drafts and submit to WP:AFC instead. If the user continues to create inappropriate pages following the warning then perhaps further administrative action could be entertained. For the record, I have tagged Corcuera National High School and Mabini National High School (Corcuera) all for deletion under WP:CSD#A3 (no content). (Non-administrator comment) Mz7 (talk) 03:22, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I thought about directing him/her to WP:YFA too, but it looks like that was already attempted by another user last year. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:39, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

You're right, but the link was buried in Template:Welcomemenu, which has at least 60 links in it and isn't specifically about creating content. I think the best way forward would be to compose a message that specifically addresses the point that when an article is published to mainspace, it is expected to meet the standards of mainspace (making sure content is verifiable, context is established, neutral point of view, no speedy deletable content, etc.). Mz7 (talk) 04:03, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

I have added a message to the user's talk page. Feel free to add anything if you feel it's necessary. Mz7 (talk) 04:32, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Copyright violations by User:MaronitePride

I recently noticed that User:MaronitePride had added a WP:COPYVIO to Schengen Area:

copyvio 1
"In Zagreb, political analyst Davor Gjenero said that Germany's move to suspend Schengen could negatively affect Croatia’s hopes of joining the passport-free zone." "In Zagreb, political analyst Davor Gjenero said that Germany's move to suspend Schengen could negatively affect Croatia’s hopes of joining the passport-free zone."

I removed it and left a note on the user's talk page explaining why this could not stay in article space. The user has responded by edit warring to include this content, albeit now including the text in quotations. Ignoring the fact that the edit misrepresents the source (as I explained in the edit summary), slapping quotations marks around the whole thing does not change the fact that it still violates WP:NFCCP. For one thing, there is no WP:INTEXT attribution and it also fails "no free equivalent" (the sentence could be rewritten to make it free, which is what I did but which is what is being reverted).

I subsequently noticed that User:Drmies had recently warned the user for the same behaviour on Kurds in Iran. Further investigation has found that this seems to be a widespread problem in MaronitePride's edits, even since Drmies' warning:

copyvio 2
"First Syrian refugees cross Croatia-Serbia border, carving out potential new route through Europe after Hungary seals borders." "First refugees cross Croatia-Serbia border, carving out potential new route through Europe after Hungary seals borders."

Much of Kurds in the Netherlands appears to be a copyvio:

copyvio 3

"stormed the national parliament building in The Hague on Monday night in a protest against ISIS offensive on the Syrian town ... Dutch police raided a secret meeting of members of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) in the Netherlands ... prosecutors office said, adding that the Kurdish PKK recruits young Kurds in the Netherlands for its armed struggle against the Turkish army ... left-wing pro-Kurdish party, which won 13 percent of the votes in the Turkish parliamentary elections, leading to much joy and celebrations among the Kurds who want more autonomy for Turkish Kurdistan, but Turkey refuses to give it" "stormed the national parliament building in The Hague on Monday night in a protest against Islamic State fighters who are attacking a Kurdish town in northern Syria" .. "Dutch police raided a secret meeting of members of the Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) in the Netherlands ... prosecutors office said, adding that the PKK recruits young Kurds in the Netherlands for its armed struggle against the Turkish army." ... "the left-wing pro-Kurdish party won 13 percent of the votes in the Turkish parliamentary elections, leading to much joy and celebrations among Kurds ... want more autonomy, but Turkey refuses to give it."

as does Syrians in Saudi Arabia:

copyvio 4

"it has in fact given residency to 100,000 people as war rages in their country. An official from Saudi Arabia’s ministry of foreign affairs, cited by the official Saudi press agency, said that Saudi Arabia “made it a point not to deal with them as refugees” but had issued residency permits to 100,000 (One Lac) Syrians who wished to stay in the kingdom" "it has in fact given residency to 100,000 people as war rages in their country...An official from Saudi Arabia’s ministry of foreign affairs, cited by the official Saudi press agency, said ... Saudi Arabia “made it a point not to deal with them as refugees” but had issued residency permits to 100,000 Syrians who wished to stay in the kingdom."

and Polish people in Lebanon:

copyvio 5

"The first mention of Poles in the areas of modern Lebanon was from the time of the Crusades, which were attended by Polish nobles, as well as numerous pilgrimages to the Holy Land. From this period comes the first recorded pilgrim brother Anselm of Bernardine order that contains a reference to passing through Lebanon. First described the Lebanese lands Prince Nicholas Krzysztof Radziwill in his diary of the journey to Jerusalem, which took place in the years 1582-1584. ... In recognition of the regiment was drafted into the Guard and sent to Lebanon in 1865. The first commander of this department was Stefan Gościmiński (Tufan Bey), and his successor Louis Sas Monasterska (Lufti Bey). After 24 years Polish regiment in Lebanon ceased to exist." "First mention of Poles staying in the Middle East ... the period of the Crusades, which were attended by Polish princes, as well as numerous pilgrimages to the Holy Land. From this period comes the first record pilgrim Bernardine - Brother Anselm, who mentions passing through Lebanon. Be the first to describe the traditional Lebanese hospitality of Prince Nicholas Christopher Radziwill in his diary of the journey to Jerusalem, which took place in the years 1582-1584 ... In recognition of his regiment he was drafted into the Imperial Guard and seconded to Lebanon in 1865. The first commander "Polish regiment" numbering about 3,000 Stefan Gościmiński (Toufan Bey); his successor and Louis Sas Monasterski (Lufti Bey)." Note this is a comparison of a google translate of the source, so the copyvio is probably even more serious

I think a WP:CCI needs to be launched to clean up all the copyvios. But more urgently, MaronitePride needs to either heed the warnings and stop adding copyvios into article space, or be forced to stop adding copyvios. TDL (talk) 03:18, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Seems this has been going on for months despite several warnings from different users. WP:IDHT? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:40, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Err, gave them a "respond or be blocked" warning. Either we figure out what to do with their lack of understanding of policies (or their intentional violations) and make sure that it will not be repeated, or no reason to not protect the project from them. Max Semenik (talk) 05:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Unknown threat from editor Kushagraasati.1

In response to my speedy tag on their userpage, this user has posted the following comment on my talk page: "Why? You insert a tag on my page . Remove it or otherwise i will do a case on you guranteed in 5 hours Kushagraasati.1 (talk) 06:08, 19 September 2015 (UTC)"

Kushagraasati.1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nz101&oldid=681740542 Nz101^Userpage_Talkpage 06:15, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

User by the name of ProKro using an untolerable language

Hello I've recently updated the GDP per capita of the Maldives and mistakenly did not shorten the link (of the gdp per capita). Then it appears that a certain user by the name of ProKro repaired the link and used totally untolerable language directed toward me, thankfully, nothing can be erased when it comes to the historic. here is what he posted

Fixed lousy entry, ref fixes, link

I hope ladies and gentlemen, that you will take the necessary measures on this user. My best regards. Signed. NotAlpArslan (talk) 06:16, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Launching an ANI thread over someone being just barely uncivil is a massive overreaction. Best just to accept that not everyone is as polite as you'd like and move on. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:25, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi, regards, Best sir is keeping this encyclopedia civil :)

The user already harrassed me and threatened me and is known for his past violations.

Best regards

Signed

NotAlpArslan (talk) 06:30, 19 September 2015 (UTC).

But it was a lousy entry. -Roxy the dog™ (Resonate) 06:54, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's the diff of the correction to the lousy entry. Accurate description of a bad entry is not being uncivil. GregJackP Boomer! 06:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

This really isn't actionable. Someone should close this. FYI, the kind of civility whereby one habitually addresses others as "sir", "ladies and gentlemen", "best regards", is neither necessary nor usual on Wikipedia; in fact it can be grating. BethNaught (talk) 07:12, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

It seems unusual that someone with an editing history of only 5 days would have been 'harassed' in the past. There may be some cultural misunderstanding involved, but there also appears to be some fundamental misunderstanding of how Wikipedia discussions are supposed to work.[233] I would be very happy indeed if that edit summary were the most uncivil thing anyone ever said to me on Wikipedia.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)