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The result was redirect to Sue Records#Symbol Records. Not notable per consensus, the redirect appears uncontroversial. Sandstein 08:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol Records

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Non notable record label company that have no WP:CORPDEPTH and fail WP:NCORP. Celestina007 (talk) 10:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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~~::Oppose, meets notability threshold, Symbol Records had singles chart on multiple charts.~~strike double !vote - Twixister has Keep !voted below HighKing⁺⁺ 12:43, 14 January 2020 (UTC) [reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 08:54, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, I just noticed I didn't sign my previous response. I'm not sure why this article is being considered for deletion when it meets the notability threshold. Symbol released over 40 singles and a few of the records reached the top 10 on the US charts, including the 1963 hit song "Mockingbird." Twixister (talk) 08:57, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- Which means they are doing a decent job in their market, but that's not enough to make them pass GNG/NCOMPANY. Did they win awards? Did someone write a profile of them? Did someone call them significant? If not, WP:NOTYELLOWPAGES, etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:30, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per my comment above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:30, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -Nocturnal306^talk 22:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Notability is not inherited. I am unable to locate any significant coverage with in-depth information on the company and containing independent content, fails GNG/WP:NCORP. HighKing⁺⁺ 12:43, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Sue_Records#Symbol_Records. Missvain (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Please consider improving before nominating again. Thanks everyone for contributing and assuming good faith! Missvain (talk) 16:13, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gregory Bedny

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I don't think this person meets NACADEMIC or NAUTHOR. I was only able to find one review of his books. b uidhe 06:06, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Not sure if that is the criterion. Scholar indicates that 6 of his works have each been cited over 100 times, perhaps someone can find an h-index for him. His work on Activity theory certainly looks significant. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:17, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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According to google scholar Gregory Bedny's work has been cited > 1600 times. Some other relevant information suggesting that this page should not be deleted: Gregory Bedny is a member/Academician of the Russian Academy of Aerospace and Engineering. He holds an honorary Doctor of the University of South Ukraine, he was an editor of the Human Activity series of CRC Press, Member of the Board of the Applied Human Factors Ergonomics conference, Member of the Board of the Theoretical Issues of Ergonomics Journal and in addition to articles, author of 18 scholarly books. It is also worth noting that because G. Bedny is a Soviet scholar and immigrant this needs to be taken into account when interpreting scholarly impact. Gregory Bedny's impact extends not only in US and Wester Europe but also in Ukraine and other former Soviet Union countries. It is important that Wikipedia remain as inclusive of international diversity as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbedny (talk • contribs) 00:06, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Draftify Potentially notable but single reference is insufficient for establishing notability. Three papers with more than 100 cites are pretty decent. scope_creep^Talk 11:36, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Do we have any RS telling anything about this person (when and where he was born, what he did, etc.)? So far, there is one review about his book. If not, I am afraid this is going to be deleted. We must source content to something. My very best wishes (talk) 18:52, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment On sources, the foreword to this book that he coedited is some kind of eulogy; there's also a short biography there. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I see a plenty of sourced info about him in preface to the book. That resolves my concern. However, it does not say that he was the founder of Activity theory. What was his the most significant achievement, exactly, beyond publishing several books? I have no strong opinion to keep or delete. My very best wishes (talk) 04:10, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think his citation record is probably sufficient that he meets WP:NPROF C1, although I'm concerned about the largely-without-references article. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 14:47, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Notability demonstrated with thanks to HouseofChange for some complex source hunting Nosebagbear (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Annmarie Sairrino

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Non notable filmmaker who does not satisfy nor qualify as per WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO. Celestina007 (talk) 22:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Filmmakers like other creative professionals qualify via WP:NARTIST by producing notable work. Sairrino has been a producer or co-producer of many projects that have their own Wikipedia articles, most recently Root Letter but a bunch of other obvious wikilinks in the article. Finding coverage is complicated because (for example) her work with Tiger and Bunny is credited to "Annmarie Bailey," "Annmarie Baily," or in one case "Annmarie Baile" rather than "Annmarie Sairrino." HouseOfChange (talk) 01:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep per coverage found by HouseOfChange. feminist (talk) 01:50, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It appears she's more well known as Annmarie Bailey at this point. Her company seems notable, too. Missvain (talk) 19:18, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Consensus that the family as a whole doesn't demonstrate notability Nosebagbear (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Priddy family (Sierra Leone)

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This article has lacked proper sources since its creation in 2008. The only ref confirms that one individual held the family name but offers no support for the substance of the article. Notability of the topic is not established. Mccapra (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep there are loads of sources if you just search "Priddy family", Sierra Leone. There are also lots of sources about this family elsewhere in the Americas. I don't know however whether they are the same extend family brought back to Africa after abolition. From what I can guarge from the sources, although I haven't examined them in detail, I suspect this might be the case. Either way, I think this article is notable and should be expanded. Senegambianamestudy (talk) 03:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. If I search for “Priddy family Sierra Leone” all I find is this article and its mirror on Wikivisually. If I search for “Priddy family” I come up with a number of ancestry and genealogy sites about a family in Somerset, but nothing about Sierra Leone. If anyone is finding lots of sources from these searches could they please add them to the article? Mccapra (talk) 03:56, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- The article is ultimately the result of the family having one notable member, a medic, who had a fellowship in a British Royal College (professional regulatory association) and an obituary in a professional journal. I am not clear how notable that person was, but that certainly does not mean that the family to which he belonged is also notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:45, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: As not notable and not inherited. The article states "...one of the most successful settler families...", with one source that is used on Ebun Willie Robert Gorham Priddy, so there is absolutely no indication of such "family" notability. Otr500 (talk) 08:29, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:SIGCOV and Otr500's reasons. There's a single source, possibly self-published, about this family. Only one member is notable, and he has an article. Only when multiple members are notable (for example, the Adamses, Windsors, or Jacksons) does the family get its own article. Bearian (talk) 21:38, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to American Idol (season 9). Not enough notability external to the show to indicate notability, and agreement that his positioning in the show notability doesn't warrant an article Nosebagbear (talk) 00:04, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Garcia

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Not enough coverage to meet WP:MUSICBIO. Drm310 🍁 (talk) 08:49, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep top ten finisher on the most notable singing competition. Sources exist WP:V. Wm335td (talk) 21:28, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Redirect to American Idol (season 9) as he's not particularly notable outside his run on the show. Best, GPL93 (talk) 20:18, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:31, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect per WP:OUTCOMES: we usually merge or redirect runner-up for American Idol and such "reality TV shows". If consensus has changed, it would require revising a lot of articles. Arguably, 6th or 6th semi-finalists might get their own articles, but he was 9th. When he gets some independent notability, then a new article could be created. Bearian (talk) 21:42, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Consensus that notability is met (by various routes) Nosebagbear (talk) 00:04, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hannah Godwin

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Fails WP:GNG. Sources are either recaps of the TV show she was on or tabloid articles about her relationship. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:24, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The subject of this article is clearly a notable figure as she has appeared on multiple national television shows and was 1 of the final 2 contestants, which makes her notability more prominent. Hidden Hills Editor (talk) 23:16, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Passes general notability guidelines and she was a finalist on the Bachelor in Paradise. She's also been featured in - significantly - tons of women's magazines and notable publications. Whether she's a YouTuber, Bachelorette, or a celebutante. Missvain (talk) 19:27, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes WP:GNG --Deansfa (talk) 06:08, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Yunshui ^雲 _水 09:27, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tayshia Adams

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Fails WP:GNG. Sources are either recaps of the TV show she was on or tabloid articles about her relationship. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 22:23, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The subject of this article is clearly a notable figure as she has appeared on multiple national television shows and was 1 of the final 2 contestants, which makes her notability more prominent. Hidden Hills Editor (talk) 23:15, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Passes general notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 19:46, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Meets WP:GNG --Deansfa (talk) 06:15, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: We need more discussion about actual sources, not just "meets GNG" or "fails GNG" or "was on TV".
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 08:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, not sure why you relisted after a consensus to keep was decided. A simple Google search will yield more than enough results from a multitude of reliable and prominent sources to back the validity of this article. This person is clearly notable. Thanks! Hidden Hills Editor (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The relisting is very questionnable actually. There was an exactly similar AfD with the same number of votes but wasn't relisted. Is it that she's black unlike Hannah Godwin? What's your problem? Why do we continually perpetuate the same patterns over and over? --Deansfa (talk) 17:16, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. This was a fairly complicated discussion, including various guidelines, some reasoned IAR, and a number of changing !votes, as well as the subject's request for deletion and their involvement in editing.

There is now a clear consensus that notability is established and an IAR argument that the COI(s) were so significant as to necessitate deletion were disagreed with. The discussion about the subject wanting the article deleted, along with the discussion that the author was disrupting the editing of the article/wishing its deletion for an alternate article, are less applicable unless a No consensus decision was being considered or there was firmly clear consensus for an IAR on it.

There is the possibility that the additional sources may allow some additional editing. Several alluded to (but not digitally available) sources may be accessible by use of any and all of Refdesk, Wikipedia Library and Resource request. Nosebagbear (talk) 14:27, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kent Tate

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Article subject has requested deletion of their article, VRTS ticket # 2019122410002207. This is a procedural action; I hold no opinion as to the notability of the article subject. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 22:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment: I've contributed some minor details to this article, mostly because the main contributor limited by COI rules can't directly improve the page. Various awards and other sources establish notability. IMHO the filmmaker is wrong about the purpose of this article, it is not supposed to mirror everything in his self-published bio. Of course this bio (=personal website) is linked in the infobox. Even a stub would be better than nothing and help users (including Googlebot) to figure out basic facts (Canada, awards, vimeo account, etc.) The article is already far better than a stub and further improvements incl. a filmography are planned or discussed on the talk page. This all or nothing AFD makes no sense for me. –84.46.52.190 (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete in no way so notable that we should keep the article against the subject's wish.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:05, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: ongoing relevant discussion at teahouse. This appears to be an overreaction to unsourced info being removed. But perhaps a related notability discussion is in order. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:22, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, the Christmas teahouse discussion with the artist is already archived and presumably matches the OTRS request. –84.46.53.207 (talk) 19:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I accepted this article from AFC, he is borderline notable so thought it might survive an AFD, but if the subject would rather it was deleted, I have no issue with that. Theroadislong (talk) 17:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Request for information: Coffee, is it possible for you to tell us what reason, if any, the subject of the article gives for wanting deletion? Without knowing that we can't assess whether the request is a valid one or not. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 17:04, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @JBW: Unfortunately, per the Wikimedia Foundation's confidentiality agreement, I cannot divulge anything more from the communications system. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 05:25, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Coffee: I rather thought that would be the answer, but I asked on the off chance that it wouldn't. Thanks for answering, anyway. It is difficult, though, to assess a deletion request if one doesn't know the reason for the request. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 12:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - @JBW: I wikilinked the archived Christmas teahouse discussion above, and as there actually was a matching OTRS request later Kent tate presumably is Kent Tate. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 22:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I note the following facts. An earlier article on the same subject was deleted as promotional. Two ~~single-purpose~~ COI accounts have now created two identical drafts for an article on the same subject, much more complimentary about him than the existing article. I would not wish to see the article deleted at the subject's request in order that he can have an article more to his liking posted on his behalf. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 17:22, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I now realise that one of the accounts LorriBrown, is not, in fact, a single purpose account, as I said above. Far more of the account's editing has been related to Kent Tate than to any other single subject, but there have also been many edits on other topics. I apologise for the mistake. The other account, however, Cheri Brown, is a genuine single-purpose account. Among a total of 726 edits (most of them now deleted) I have not found a single one unrelated to Kent Tate. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 12:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
JBW, could you link them please? Thanks. Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:33, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Having looked to find the pages in order to answer Usedtobecool's request, I have found that there have actually been more of them than I realised. There have been at least two articles Kent Tate that have been deleted, both created by Cheri Brown, though one had been moved to Draft:Kent Tate before deletion, which is why I didn't see it at first. Then there is, of course, the current version of the article, created by LorriBrown. Then there are at least four user space drafts for the article which have not been deleted, though two of them have been blanked: User:Cheri Brown/Draft of Kent Tate, User:Cheri Brown/sandbox, User:LorriBrown/Draft page, and User:LorriBrown/sandbox/Kent Tate. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 12:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The "far more" summary measured in edits does not match "spent time" in articles created about Canadian artists (incl. various WIR) and film festivals, triggered by a teahouse question on one of my bold days I submitted a Draft:Susan Hudson as "WP:NPROF" in spring 2019. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 23:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm afraid that the artist or those connected to them may have felt exasperation at the admittedly strict requirements for content inclusion I have effected in a few of my edit request reviews I have performed (shown on the talk page). It was not my intent to alienate them, and I apologize if I have — but the requests have been light on providing what I saw as reliable, independent, secondary sources for some of the claims they've wanted to include, which seem primarily to have been the listing of their artistic output referenced by museum catalog-type publications. Regards, Spintendo 17:37, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to a very helpful link posted at User talk:LorriBrown by Theroadislong, I have now seen two discussions where the reasosn for wanting deletion are given by Kent tate (who claims to really be Kent Tate, and I see no reason to doubt that) and LorriBrown (who has declared a conflict of interest as a relative of Kent Tate). The discussions are Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1039#How to request for an COI article to be deleted and Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1040#how do I request a deletion of a wikipedia page about me?. Obviously anyone is free to read those discussions for themselves, but it is clear that essentially the reason for requesting deletion is that the editors in question were not able to get the article they wanted. LorriBrown is perfectly clear about that: she is quite explicit about her frustration at not getting the edits she wants because of "resistance" (as she calls it) form other editors. Kent tate is bit more equivocal. He claims not to be notable, but he also says "its clear that that author is unable to do anything with the article which keeps getting re-edited (reduced) by third parties" and "Every edit or addition she has tried to make only results in the article being reduced to the point where it doesn't really say anything", making it clear that the same frustration at not getting the kind of article about himself he wants is a substantial reason for wanting deletion, perhaps in fact the reason. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 17:04, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. On the basis of what I have said in my message immediately above this one, I think we can reasonably take the deletion request as being for the two reasons mentioned there.

Notability. While there are many better-sourced articles, the citations in the article do include some which give sufficient coverage to satisfy the general notability guideline.
The subject of the articles and an associated COI editor don't like not being able to get the kind of article they think he deserves. We have probably thousands of articles about people which don't present those people in the way they would like. That is fundamental to the nature of Wikipedia as presenting an independent, third party, view. We don't delete for that reason, nor should we. JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 17:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. It is not a matter of liking or “not” liking the article its the matter of the COI and the lack of notability for a third party to add (or even allow) any additional information about the subject whether properly sourced or not. The “strict standards” applied to this article because of the COI are grounds for deletion and the subject should not have a wikipedia article until a third party without a COI creates an article on this subject. Kent tate (talk) 18:19, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually "The “strict standards” applied to this article because of the COI are grounds for deletion " is not a valid reason for deletion. Theroadislong (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kent tate, That doesn't make much sense at all. You say there shouldn't be an article "until a third party without a COI creates an article on this subject". However, you have elsewhere objected precisely to the fact that the current version of the article is the creation of editors without a COI, and expressed annoyance that the article "keeps getting re-edited (reduced) by third parties". You can't have it both ways. And what would you say if we delete the article because of the conflict of interest, and then a third party without a conflict of interest creates a new article which is substantially the same as the deleted one? If you are sincere in wanting the article deleted "until a third party without a COI creates an article on this subject" you should be perfectly happy with that, but in that case what on earth is your objection to keeping the current article? I could say more about the position you express on this matter, but really it is largely irrelevant, because, as "Theroadislong" has said above, conflict of interest is not a reason for deletion (though it is often a reason for third party editors to clean up an article). JBW (talk) Formerly JamesBWatson 21:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Okay, food for thought @JBW:Kent tate (talk) 23:22, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Passes WP:GNG. If the articles subject wants an article without a conflicted editor, then surely he can just tell her to stop editing and let all the neutral editors get on with improving it? We don't have to delete this one first. Theroadislong (talk) 22:21, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(changed !vote, see below) ~~Neutral~~, also known as "meh". For the Kent Tate article, he fails WP:ARTIST on all counts. Most coverage is of the calibre of this example coverage in Yorkton This Week. He's eligible for an article as there is a lot of this low-level coverage, and there are some articles in old Canadian art magazines like Parallelogramme and Vanguard. On the upside he was mentioned in Performance in Canada by Clive Robertson, although that is the only serious book mention I saw, and that book mentions practically every performance-type artist in Canada. However if this was to be deleted we would only be losing a very marginally notable artist. There are thousands of Canadian artists with similar profiles (showed at one or two decent galleries, had a half dozen published reviews) who do not have articles. The COI does not help either, in the sense that it shows a promotional intent for the article. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:20, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: @ThatMontrealIP:. Yes, I agree with you about this "marginally notable" article. It should be deleted because the subject "fails WP:ARTIST on all counts" as you mentioned with a COI that "does not help either".Kent tate (talk) 04:46, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but we are talking about the GNG guideline now. Might still be notable enough for an article. Also, the article subject's thoughts on their own notability are irrelevant here. We figure that out by independent means, so no need to comment on your own notability. ThanksThatMontrealIP (talk) 05:12, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I tried to help with putting together the edit requests in question although it was mostly on the technical side. I don't remember expressing any strong opinions about anything.
By my reading, what the COI editor wanted to include were a more complete timeline of the subject's career, some direct quotes from among the reviews and a table of filmography. Each of the requests was declined for supporting sources being not independent enough or not independent at all. The discussion about the suitability of non-independent sources is ongoing at the article's talk page. The second question would be, which of the sources in the article unequivocally qualify as independent sigcov to support keeping the article despite the subject's wishes, and which of them don't. The COI editor wants to expand the article. The declination of requests says that the supporting refs are not independent. If any of the refs are not good enough for expanding the article, it follows that these sources do not meet the requirements of GNG, as GNG is built on the assumption that a certain number of independent sigcov is usually required to build a decent article on the subject, irrespective of editor motivation. So, either we delete the article because the subject isn't clearly Wikipedia notable or we identify a few SIGCOVs that the COI editor can be told can be used for building a decent article on the subject. If we are evaulating the subject's notability on GNG basis only which it seems we are now, they should be sources that support expanding the article, at least to some extent, as currently the article is barely start class. Usedtobecool ☎️ 07:43, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to delete, after seeing the massive amount of editor time User: LorriBrown has wasted over at the talk page. This is such a marginal case of notability that the COI editing pushes it over the edge. Not the usual deletion rationale, just a fact. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 18:00, 15 January 2020 (UTC) Struck.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Yes to fact and time, but for comparison I spent 90% of my enwiki time since December 2018 on GA quests for two BLPs with two auxiliary AFCs. Pending reviews + GOCE + GA1 were also time consuming not only for me, that has nothing to do with the deletion policy. –84.46.53.255 (talk) 23:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC) (added for comparison after the following reply, sorry: 84.46.53.255 (talk) 04:39, 17 January 2020 (UTC))[reply]

IP, I was going to leave a message on your talk page, but since your 84.46.*.* IP has changed five times on this page alone, I wasn't sure you would see it. The above comment was not about you. It was about how much editor time User LorriBrown wastes on the minutiae on Ken Tate.23:39, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'm going to relist this as the actual !voters are relatively balanced and there is a huge amount of discussion, including recently. If it suddenly becomes clearly one-sided in the next couple of days, I'm happy to be contacted for an early close
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear (talk) 00:07, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I am sorry but I really don’t see a lot of policy discussion here other that you can’t delete the article just because you don’t like it. Isn’t that a policy of Wikipedia that an article and the editors should be neutral? How is it possible for an article to be represented neutral when so many of you have arrived at the consensus that this artist is marginally notable and that I have a COI and therefore not capable of being neutral. One person that initially voted neutral was anything but neutral and I perceived the comment as being intentionally disruptive for reason that I really can’t understand. This has not been a policy discussion it has been a defamation of the subject and I believe an unfair assessment of the subject out of hand. The subject of this article has 30 films distributed in three non-profit internationally recognized artist film centres in Canada which have also archived these films into their permanent collections. This artist has six DVD’s that he authored and are in library collections across Canada from St. Johns Newfoundland to Victoria, British Columbia. Over the last three years, his films have been officially selected and screened in over 50 juried international experimental film festivals around the world. These are just the facts; however, it has repeatedly been stated in this discussion that the subject is marginally notable, if notable at all. Based on what I ask. Based on this article? Exactly the reason why this article should be deleted! Which after reading this discussion I feel even more strongly that this article needs to be deleted. The article does not represent this artist and I feel I have been treated with bias from the beginning as a COI editor. The latest comment on the KT article talk page was humiliating and quite shocking to see. This process has just ramped up my anxiety and the anxiety of the subject and I am convinced that I will never be allowed to improve or to edit this article. I was also shocked to see the conversation about suspicions of me potentially having SPI and SPA. It just never ends in this platform. I am likely to never edit another article on any subject since it only appears that all of my good faith efforts have only amounted to giving me a reputation of wasting people’s time and if that is all I’ve achieved then my efforts here have been a waste of my time. LorriBrown (talk) 06:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

collapse discussion with COI !voters

@LorriBrown: From your talk page: "I am disclosing that I have a COI with the subject of the article Kent Tate, the Canadian Visual Artist/Filmmaker, as a family member." You should know that the presence of a family member trying to push a POV or position is not really helpful here. We strive for neutrality, and being a member of the article subject's family is not helpful to editing the article, or to the notability debate, because family members of the article subject are not neutral for obvious reasons. You also seem to be presenting arguments for keep, while voting delete because you do not like the state of the article and cannot get it to a version you like via request edit. Meanwhile, Kent Tate above is advocating for delete. We do not need either opinion really, because they are non-neural. There must be five million other articles here that you are not related to; editing those would cause no problems I imagine. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 02:02, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment No you are incorrect. I support the subject's request to have this article deleted.LorriBrown (talk) 02:38, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your opinion is not relevant in this AfD as you are a family member of the article subject, which is not a neutral party. That's the crux of things: it is always best to stay away from articles you have a COI with. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 02:41, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How have your comments here and elsewhere been neutral or helpful to this AfD discussion? In my opinion they have been nether neutral or helpful. Kent tate (talk) 03:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We really do not need the family of the article subject here. Other than the initial deletion request, your opinions will not be taken into account in deciding the AfD. Sorry you do not understand that.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:33, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As the subject of that article I assumed I had rights, I'm sorry to hear that I don't Kent tate (talk) 03:43, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We are an independent thing. You have the right to request deletion and to request that things be changed in the article, but that's it. You can !vote here but it has little effect as you have a massive COI. Don't take it personally, as this is how we stay free of influence. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:57, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a human being, not a line of code, so I'm incapable of not taking this personally. The massive COI is one of the key reasons I requested the AFD in the first place. Thank youKent tate (talk) 04:09, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Back in March 2019, as a non-COI, I reduced length by half, cutting what in my opinion was not relevant or inappropriate. At that time, no concerted effort to add back the content or have the article deleted. Recently, length reduced by a third by other non-COI editors. In my opinion, once through AfC, an article is an article. It can be improved by subtraction and addition. The article that exists today is concise and descriptive. It includes an External link to the subject's website and his Vimeo channel, where he is free to create any content he so wishes. Wikipedia is consistent in that subjects and article creators (COI or not) do not "own" articles. David notMD (talk) 09:13, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: external links to the subject’s “non-neutral ” personal websites is not an argument to keep this article. Any cursory Google search of the subject’s name will will easily find those pages. The COI disclaimer and the huge numbers of deletions (with no additions) from the non-COI editors as well as the link to this AfD discussion will only serve to damage my reputation. If the purpose of a Wikipedia article is to provide information in a neutral way then this article fails on all counts. Kent tate (talk) 17:25, 18 January 2020 (UTC) Striking duplicate vote. ST47 (talk) 17:29, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - meets GNG. There are a number of offline-only sources, which perhaps is preventing others from fully evaluating the sourcing, however these two online sources clearly establish notability under GNG: we have Isolated Gestures Wins Award, while it is a short article, it does talk about the subject's life and work, it isn't just routine coverage. We also have Tate’s ‘Movies for a Pulsing Earth’ offer compelling introspection at Gallery, which is an in-depth article on the subject from a smaller community newspaper. That already passes GNG, and we still have another online article and several print-only newspaper references. ST47 (talk) 17:38, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Sorry, I meant to post this as a comment, my apologies: External links to the subject’s “non-neutral ” personal websites is not really an argument to keep this article. Any cursory Google search of the subject’s name will will easily find those pages. The COI disclaimer and the huge number of deletions with no additions from the non-COI editors as well as the link to this AfD discussion overshadows the article to the point where the reader will likely question the credibility of any content that has remained. I understand that this is not a policy argument but that is a serious concern of mine as the subject of this article. Kent tate (talk) 18:47, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I've voted neutral, delete and now keep. I was initially on the fence as available sourcing is poor. Then delete as I was fed up with the constant intervention of the article subject and his family, which has had the effect of muddying the neutrality of discussion. However I can now see, after hearing good clear arguments and looking a little more at the article and at the promise of sources, that the sourcing, and hints of sources on paper, is more than likely just enough to cover GNG. There are no collections but there were a bunch of articles in the 80s that I am pretty sure are in old copies of Paralleogramme and the like in various libraries. I will try and find more sources. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 00:51, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have added eight sources, several of which are primary fact checks but a couple of which are actual SIGCOV. "Exhibition features filmmaker’s view of the prairie’s beauty and contrast" was found in something called the Prairie Post, and a 1980s review was found in a clipping (thanks, LorriBrown!) from the Vancouver Province. All told, I see two reviews in Vanguard circa 1980s, the item in the Province from the same era, something in Parallelogramme from the 80s, the more recent item mentioned above, as well as the existing sources. I had to scrape very deep into various online databases to find some of these, but it seems to meet GNG.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:50, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks from the IPs, I learned new stuff about BROCHURE, REDACT, BITE, {{vimeo user}}, etc. on this BLP. –84.46.53.192 (talk) 07:55, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Consensus to delete, primarily on notability grounds, but also on excessively promotional basis. I will also Salt the page, given the issues that have occurred to date. Nosebagbear (talk) 00:11, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tyro Gyn Phi

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Non notable, promotional article about a frat that meets no inclusion criteria. I'm doing this in lieu of letting the prod sit since it'll just be recreated. Praxidicae (talk) 21:55, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete’This was tagged per WP:G11. While very promotional, it did not reach my threshold for G11. I did see it as WP:A7, and deleted as such. Creator requested reconsideration of the deletion, so I restored. (Such has been my practice with A7’s in the past.) I attempted cleanup, but was unable to establish significant, independent coverage from reliable sources. So here we are.-- Deep fried okra 22:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete *and* Salt I'm a fairly active member of Wikiproject Fraternities and Sororites and have worked in getting information on Fraternity and Sororities in the Philippines as well. I do not doubt that the organization exists, but I've tried looking even in places that google doesn't like sunstar.com.ph and philstar.com (both are newspaper(media company) websites in the Philippines) and *still* haven't been able to grab enough for an article. It is Geographically local in Zamboanga, but with school and local chapters which would mean that any media in Zamboanga would cover them, but national newspapers would be less likely since it has no presence in Manila. I'm leaning toward Salt given the behavior in moving back and forth from Draft to mainspace and back. I'd be willing to work with the original editor in Draft, but not until after this AFD is finished.Naraht (talk) 14:32, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I just move protected the thing. Creator moved it to draft and Praxidicae moved it back. I think it best if we let this run and determine notability.-- Deep fried okra 17:01, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I feel my G-search revealed an active and vigorous SEO effort. Your mileage may very.-- Deep fried okra 17:18, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Disagree. In the google search once Facebook, tripod.com (for an old site) and tyronians.org were deleted, what was left that wasn't videos was largely chaotic and not really useful to anyone. I don't think the situation with Tyro Gyn Phi on the web changed significantly because of any effort to get it accepted by Wikipedia. Instead, it represents what happens with a group which while Fraternal, is closely geographical by has little corporate organizational structure. I'd call it the exact opposite in the Fraternity/Sorority Universe from a US Nation wide honor society in a field such as Economics or Spanish) There are other similar geographical (rather than university based) organizations in the Philippines. Take a look at a version List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines prior to the great cleanup in October 2018 to get a feeling for things. However, none of that makes a difference on *this* article's status.Naraht (talk) 19:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Non-notable promo article.--Darwinek (talk) 23:22, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Article is promotional, not encyclopedic.TH1980 (talk) 03:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Consensus it's an unneeded content fork that is not independently notable Nosebagbear (talk) 00:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Snizhne incident

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Non-notable individual event that was part of the larger Battle in Shakhtarsk Raion, where it's already mentioned in roughly the same detail. There's only one reliable source, a short news article (archived copy) which doesn't really provide much in the way of information, let alone notability. I don't think it'd be useful as a redirect, since "Snizhne incident" doesn't seem to be used to refer to this event anywhere else. ansh.666 21:47, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete unneccessary fork with minimal RS Mztourist (talk) 06:41, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:FORK, WP:SIGCOV, and WP:SOAP. This is thinly-veiled agitprop. Bearian (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. BD2412 T 05:25, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

European Academy of Paediatrics

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Does not meet WP:ORG. WP:ORG says: "An organization is not notable merely because notable persons are associated with it. An organization is notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." This page needs to be deleted. Topjur02 (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The article is weak, but the organisation is notable. However most of the sources are behind paywalls. Rathfelder (talk) 16:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RL0919 (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notable organization with potential to pass general notability guidelines. The article just needs attention and perhaps folks at the Wikipedia Library can help with access to the databases. Missvain (talk) 18:01, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear (talk) 00:13, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: an international org -- with a 60-year history and representing national pediatrics orgs -- is not a flash in the pan. I've found some sources that support notability notability: Guide to Paediatric Clinical Research and Neonatology: A Practical Approach to Neonatal Diseases. --K.e.coffman (talk) 19:04, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The first of K.e.coffman's two book sources provides non-trivial independent coverage, as does Wyder, Corinne, "EAP – European academy of pediatrics" (PDF), Paediatrica, 25 (4): 25. I think that's enough for WP:GNG. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:36, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Being bold and deleting this one early. Missvain (talk) 18:02, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Guy Phoenix

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Nottingham property developer whose RS is from asking £10m for a house in Nottingham (despite some of the RS, £10m is a long way from the UK's most expensive house); and even that RS is mostly press releases from Phoenix (he added a charging station for an electric flying car). Zero SIGCOV (or really any COV on him, outside of his £10m house) in the main UK papers (e.g. The Guardian, Daily Telegraph, Financial Times, The Times, or The Independant). Article has a WP:PROMO feel (and I suspect some WP:UPE behind this). I ask the community to decide, Britishfinance (talk) 20:43, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Weak Keep. My initial thoughts were the article should be deleted, as it has a promotional tone and lacks significant coverage in reliable sources. However, outside of the news of the £10m home, Guy Phoenix has had some news coverage for his property developing business, albeit mainly in local Nottinghamshire newspapers. There are sources that Guy Phoenix has won some UK architecture awards. It's a marginal decision for me, but possibly newsworthy enough to keep. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 03:17, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment His "awards" are non-notable trade awards (e.g. in return for a fee you can "earn" your award) – they do not get covered in any proper UK RS (unlike the notable UK property awards). Also noting that the author, Silkeop3, has been blocked for spamming. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 09:49, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Thank you for that information. When I voted "Weak Keep" I wasn't aware that the author had been blocked for spamming. I would have no objections to this article being deleted. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 05:28, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The coverage found are merely passing mentions and of the subject, not enough for a page now. A case of WP:TOOSOON. Lapablo (talk) 10:57, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete passing mentions are not enough to show notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:35, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - confirmed paid-for spam written by a sockpuppet. MER-C 02:14, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete not enough in-depth coverage to prove Phoenix passes WP:GNG. Best, GPL93 (talk) 00:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - spam for a local real estate salesperson. I remind the reader that if this were 2008, we could assume good faith, but in face of clear evidence in 2020, this is just abuse of a charity. Bearian (talk) 21:55, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Caramel (band)

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Semi-advertorialized article about a band, not reliably sourced as passing WP:NMUSIC. As always, bands are not automatically entitled to have Wikipedia articles just because they exist, and instead must meet certain achievement-based criteria, and have a certain volume of reliable source coverage about them, for an article to become earned -- but the only notability claim in evidence here is that their debut album was released just a couple of months ago, and there's just one actual source being shown (the article was otherwise liberally tarted up with a lot of offsite links to primary sources, which I've already removed as WP:ELNO violations.) As always, no prejudice against recreation in the future if and when they have a stronger notability claim and better sourcing to support it, but nothing shown here is enough yet. Bearcat (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Agree with nom. I just now briefly worked on the article to clean it up. When I searched for content, it was very difficult because hits for the food kept coming up before the band. That tells me that even as "Caramel (band)" they're not as notable as the food as consumed by bands. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have since included more references to articles. I understand what you are saying but many bands on here that are fairly well known have names that would pull up something else before you'd find them on a search engine. It would be a shame if this was deleted as I was planning to detail a lot more about this group. Forgive me as I am fairly new to all of this. Weeyam (talk) 22:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what Walter Görlitz said; he said that even using "band" as a disambiguator to limit other things coming up in the search this band still got outhit by other things, which is not the same thing as "this band isn't the only thing that would ever come up in a Google search on its name at all". Very few bands would ever pass that latter test at all, because bands routinely name themselves after people and places and things and words. But that's got nothing to do with our notability criteria, at any rate — the notability test is not the uniqueness of the band's name, but the ability to find reliable sources that are covering the band in the context of one or more notable accomplishments.

Please familiarize yourself with our notability criteria for musicians, and with what constitutes a reliable and notability-supporting source. We do not guarantee a Wikipedia article to every band that exists on the planet, and we don't deem bands notable just because they've been covered in blogs — to get a Wikipedia article, a band has to (a) accomplish something that passes the notability criteria for musicians, and (b) receive coverage about that in real media. Bearcat (talk) 16:28, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - WP:TOOSOON. I also struggled to find anything outside of the few sources y'all dug up. Missvain (talk) 18:07, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Consensus that sourcing requirements are met Nosebagbear (talk) 00:14, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lady Margaret Sackville (1562–1591)

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Can't inherit notability as the wife of an earl, especially since she died before he became an earl. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:29, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep. I believe notability is demonstrated. Women of this period tend not to be recognised in the same way as their husbands, because they were nominally less powerful, but it seems to me that she was an eminent member of an eminent family. Deb (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This article on a would-have-been countess meets WP:GNG; this article is well-sourced and detailed for a woman of her station and time. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 21:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment -- Does not being dedicatee of a poem by a notable poet provide some notability? Otherwise the content is mere genealogy. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:49, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Much of biography is "mere genealogy." Do you mean her Family tree? There is more than pedigree present in the article. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 17:29, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep - an incredible number of independent sources for a woman of this period. Cardiffbear88 (talk) 00:14, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Meets GNG and she's doing better than most women in the peerage project from this period! Missvain (talk) 01:33, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - highly notable and connected in her time. I also note she's related to the current ruling house. Bearian (talk) 21:58, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ten Junk Miles

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Fails WP:GNG, with only one (MyChicagoAthlete) source with any potentially significant coverage of the podcast. — MarkH₂₁^talk 20:17, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete I have to agree - this simply doesn't meet WP:WEBCRIT. The vast majority of sources are not independent. Others only mention the subject in passing (such as this). Some don't even mention the subject at all (such as this and this). The source that the nominator mentioned as coming closest to meeting the WP:GNG criteria is local coverage. Maybe it's just WP:TOOSOON for this podcast - but for now, it doesn't meet the criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia. Jmertel23 (talk) 20:52, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Sources include 1 major independent source fully about the Article as noted above, along with multiple other independent sources including ranking in Top Ten Running Podcasts by Apple, a reference by "Canadian Running Magazine", and reference by "Runners World" (a major runners web based magazine). Jkiffmeyer (talk) 21:00, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All of the other sources are just mentions rather than significant coverage, which is what WP:GNG and WP:WEBCRIT#1 are about. So far, the subject falls short of having multiple reliable sources with significant coverage. — MarkH₂₁^talk 07:43, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

— Note: An editor has expressed a concern that editors have been canvassed to this discussion.

No evidence of canvassing that I see. Facebook post does not appear to be placed by or at the request of an editor, did not call for any action, and has not resulted in any impact here. Based on my review of wikipedia canvassing page I recommend the canvassing notice be removed. - Jkiffmeyer (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Per Jkiffmeyer. _SUPER ^ASTIG 07:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1 source does not make GNG. — MarkH₂₁^talk 02:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GNG has no requirement for more than 1 major source. Having 1 major source and a few other mentions by sources means this discussion for deletion is valid, but not a clear indication for deletion. - Jkiffmeyer (talk) 14:41, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Does not pass general notability guidelines. I could not find multiple reliable secondary sources in which the subject is given significant coverage. There is also not enough coverage for the podcast - from mainstream resources - to warrant WP:BASIC at this time. Perhaps it is WP:TOOSOON. It can always be drafted if the creator of the article is concerned and wishes it to be. Missvain (talk) 18:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Draft:Braden Mitchell. I went ahead and moved the article to Draft:Braden Mitchell. Thanks everyone for contributing and assuming good faith! Missvain (talk) 16:12, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Braden Mitchell

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Fails WP:NMOTORSPORT. Only sources cited are press releases that do not establish notability. An external search did not find meaningful WP:SIGCOV. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 20:08, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep. Cavanaughs expanded the article with some useful information and reliable sources. NASCARfan0548 ↗ 23:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Those "reliable sources" are press releases, which aren't considered WP:RS. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 05:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Make it a draft, I think what's on there (the sources I found) can be kept, but I agree that there really isn't enough info about him on the page. Nothing else could be found because there's nothing else out there online about him when Googling. Mitchell has only ever attempted one race which was a DNQ. The racing series he competes in is so small that there's no news about him. If Mitchell attempts a Nascar race again (like Eldora in 2020) or whenever we find out more info about him, then I'd say add the page back. Moving it as a draft would be a good compromise here. We don't lose any of the existing info, which is still something but not enough for an article. Cavanaughs (talk) 04:58, 10 January 2020 (UTC)Cavanaughs[reply]
Draftify per Cavanaughs reasoning. Best, GPL93 (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I just added a reference to a reliable source to make the AfD more likely say "keep". NASCARfan0548 ↗ 04:16, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The source is directory-style sourcing that does not demonstrate WP:SIGCOV. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 13:10, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shanice Marcus

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Totally non-notable. Page was created in 2011 and immediately tagged for notability. Creator removed notability tag. I came across this as a random article and made some edits. In particular, I removed two claims that do not add up. Firstly, "Her first major movie role was in Franco-Canadian's Nos 18 ans." She is not listed in a major role or anywhere else as far as I can see. (And what/who is "Franco-Canadian's"?) Secondly, she is "known her portrayal of Nicole in the film Nos 18 ans"; ditto, plus there doesn't seem to be a Nicole part in the film!. The only reference given, to the NY Times, is not specific. Her website is all but blank. Which leaves that she went to an audition and appeared in a video - no refs. Total non-entity in a page that lacks substance and sources and appears no more than a (poor) attempt to promote a career that is at best lacklustre and more likely non-existant. Worth keeping in mind that there is no corresponding article in French Wikipedia. Emeraude (talk) 20:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as per above arguments by nominator Theprussian (talk) 20:08, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete when you most notable film role is a part that is so minor there is no clear evidence it exists you are not notable. And that is assuming the truthfulness of some claims that are nota actually proven.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails general notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 01:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Clearly fails the WP:GNG and WP:NACTRESS. -- LACaliNYC ✉ 22:00, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: as per nomination. Dflaw4 (talk) 13:43, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. BD2412 T 23:25, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Timothy Machin

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Fails WP:NOTABILITY due to a single soruce which is the person's own personal website (Which is inaccsessible due to a subscription being required for verification) and also the fact that he seems to have provided little contribution to cricket. Theprussian (talk) 20:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Speedy keep - the website isn't my "own personal site". That is a lie. Please do not send articles to deletion just because you don't know anything about the reference. Can someone please help by adding a reference to CI and reformatting the references accordingly, as I've forgotten how it's done these days. Links do not need removing simply because they "require subscription". If you wish for the references to be checked and/or amended, please ask in the appropriate place. For someone who is "fed up" with the userbase and their "stuck up nature", who don't help editors who wish to "edit or create articles", who has only created five articles in the last two and a half years, and would rather send them to deletion, this is an odd frame of mind to be in. Please do not post the AfD notice in the wrong place, either. Bobo. 20:32, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoa, calm down. I never said this is your "own personal site", by that I meant that the only reference for the person discussed in the article is their own personal site. Secondly, I looked up any sources on this player and got nothing. Also the fact I have created only 5 articles in 2 years has nothing to do with the AFD, please keep the argument relevant to this discussion. I am not personally attacking you, I created this AFD as a way of discussing whether it is appropriate to continue to keep a record of this person on Wikipedia - a democratic and fair process. You are welcome to argue why/why not but please provide reasonable discusssion. Ps. DO NOT accuse me of dishonesty.Theprussian (talk) 13:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - he is a notable cricketer ... --Roisterer (talk) 03:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fails WP:NCRIC, played only minor counties cricket and therefore fails the "played at the highest international or domestic level" criterion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.69.22.80 (talk) 09:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is factually incorrect, please read the article more carefully, and please log in if you want your !vote to count. Bobo . 11:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:Bobo192 how is it factually incorrect? He played a single match between Bedfordshire and Northumberland, both of which are minor counties. A match between two minor counties is not the "highest domestic level". That's like saying anyone who plays in the first round of the FA Cup is notable for Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.69.22.80 (talk) 15:04, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The match had List A status, doesn't matter if they were minor counties or not. StickyWicket (talk) 19:29, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Has played in a List A match, therefore passing WP:NCRIC. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 10:03, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Does NCRIC cover this even if this match was over 40 years ago? Theprussian (talk) 13:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, as notability is not temporary. There are thousands and thousands of sportspeople on WP (not just cricketers) who've made one start in their sport from 40+ years ago (and more). Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 15:19, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And I wonder how many of those one-appearance names have been deleted in comparison with cricketers who meet the same criteria. For that matter, I bet there are hundreds of initialed names in those lists too. But you know. Life wouldn't be fun if we ran by clearly definable rules, would it? Bobo . 20:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"the meeting of any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept." WP:NSPORTS we are sort of clutching at straws here. Tbh, I think most of these token articles should be purged from this site or merged into one super list. But alas. Democracy Rules :/ Theprussian (talk) 22:29, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ever noticed how every single word of that guideline is a weasel word? "Does not mean"? "Must be kept"? You mean we're going to randomly go off our own opinions rather than actually having workable criteria or even working to indefinable and indefensible criteria like GNG? This is how Wikipedia becomes destroyed and worthless. Bobo . 23:01, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Has played List A cricket, the highest domestic level of one-day cricket. StickyWicket ([[User
Comment. Anyone else find the random appearance of an IP just slightly suspicious? No, just me? StickyWicket (talk) 19:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the random appearance of an IP which is suspicious, it's someone randomly taking an article to AfD without knowing anything about the topic that saddens them so much. Bobo . 20:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just because a 2 line article passes the arbritrary regulation set by WP:NCRIC (which is funnily enough, set be these Wikiproject in charge of the cricket project and not be an indepndent group) - it does not mean we need to keep 6 million 2 line articles about some non-important players. Why can't we just have a list? This issue has been raised before many times and any civil debate is pretty much shutdown. Theprussian (talk) 22:33, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

:If you believe, with your knowledge of the subject and its sources, you can improve these articles, go ahead. Complaining that other people haven't done the work that you're protesting against, when most of the work I did was ten years ago or more, is slightly contradictory, and, frankly, insulting to the work I've put in and the aims and goals of the project. People randomly deciding to become exclusionists purely for the sake of destroying the goals of a project, means Wikipedia can no longer attain its goal of being the sum of all knowledge. As for CRIN, it is identical to every other competitive team sport guideline. If this debate were going on in any other team sport, the exclusionists would probably be topic-banned... Bobo . 23:03, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be assuming this is a personal attack on yourself - it really isn't. Every person who has edited Wikipedia has had bits written out or deleted entirely, it part of being apart of this project. I'm just sharing my view on this matter - that's all.Theprussian (talk) 23:12, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Exclusionism is an insult to the cricketing project and its members who have spent the last 15 years expanding knowledge of the subject. I will continue to maintain over and over that the conversation where we determined that NSPORT was too inclusive and should be beneath other "guidelines" was a complete mess and without any form of consensus, as I have suggested here. Note Herostratus' comment regarding the sense that any article should have "sufficient good sources" - please feel free to remove every single reference to CA if you wish - "some reasonable number of people would be interested in the article" - why else do we have a dedicated project - and that "somebody can be bothered to actually create the article". When I look back at the articles I created in my early days, there was so much "low-hanging fruit" in terms of footballer articles. Of course I "can be bothered". "Could be bothered", I should say. I can't any more, my work is being attacked and deemed unwelcome. Bobo . 23:17, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but only because he played a significant number of minor county championship matches. This convinces me that there will almost certainly be sources which deal with him in a reasonable level of detail - year books, newspaper reports etc... I certainly don't believe that his single List A appearance makes him notable in itself - and if that was all we knew about him I would argue for a redirect to the list of Beds cricketers. From a technical point of view there are a number of reasons why WP:NCRIC is flawed in cases such as this.

None of this is a criticism of the nominator. The paywalled source is difficult to access and it's from there that I was able to see how much minor counties cricket he had played which is the only reason for my keep vote. Blue Square Thing (talk) 09:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I could always expand on details of his Minor Counties career, but frankly any material other than his career details is just excess bumf. As is the case for every other first-class cricketer. But still people expect an article to be full of excess flowery nonsense. Without facts an article is useless. And if people expect more than facts, then they're in the wrong place. The article still remains identical to how I created it eleven years ago. If anyone is upset with the prose text of an article, then... um... fix it? Of course it's not a criticism of the nominator. I still can't help but feel victimized. And please convince me I should feel otherwise. If this has been randomly sent to AfD, you might as well do the same with 80 percent of my article creations. Bobo . 11:09, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to see some level of detail sourced from prose sources rather than being obvious statistical synthesis from scorecards and the like. Or the hope that this might be possible to do at least. Which is why, in this case, I tend towards keep. Blue Square Thing (talk) 20:07, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete minor counties competition is exactly that minor, and we should not keep articles just because someone somewhere wrote down about minor sports competitions. Any reasonable standard for inclusion would delete this article, and a lot of other sub-standard cricket articles that we have. Cricket and football are both crying out for us to rid outselves of the huge number of articles on people who in any other place we long ago would have recognized were just run of the mill and do not merit an article. There and alos we have a lot of articles on run of the mill actors we need to scrap.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:53, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The match had List A status, regardless of whether the team(s) involved also played in the Minor Counties Championship. You are either voting on a false premise or not understanding the status of the match. We cannot simply remove every article of every player from Beds, etc, etc, just because these teams also happened to play Minor Counties cricket. Otherwise there would be no categories for these players. If you wish to complain that the brightline criteria of some subject(s) allow for more defined rules than the fluffy criteria of others, an AfD conversation is not the place to do it, and this should be raised on their pages, not ours. Why are people so keen to state that a "reasonable standard for inclusion" should exist without suggesting what it should be? Is that because everything happens to be fine as it is? And is your complaint that the articles are "run of the mill" or the people themselves? You seem to be trying to make two points at once and failing at both. Bobo . 08:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Passes WP:NCRIC and WP:GNG. Nom's claim that citations are from site run by subject are patently false, and the bit about a subscription needed is completely irrelevant. Smartyllama (talk) 18:36, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes WP:NCRIC played in List A cricket, and passes WP:GNG with reliable sources. Wm335td (talk) 21:31, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Passes WP:NCRIC which provides a presumption of notability. Johnlp (talk) 22:07, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Monica's Aca & Alla

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A restaurant that does not appear to have anything but local notability. All of the sources currently being used in the article are from local, Dallas publications, and searching for additional sources, both under the original name of "Monica's Aca & Alla" as well as other names it has gone by, only turns up more of the same The small blurb in the New York Time's travel guide for Dallas that is listed as an External link appears to be the only real coverage it received beyond the Dallas region, which does not appear to be enough to pass the WP:GNG. Rorshacma (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete I write regularly about restaurants and this one has received little to no coverage outside of local media. They do have one dish (lasagna) published on the Food Network website, but, at this point even I can get a recipe published on it. Missvain (talk) 01:50, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - This restaurant no longer even exists (under this name of owner); Monica left, and another owner/operator took over the location, effectively running a new Mexican restaurant in its place now. I think it’s possible Monica has enough notability to warrant her own page (and I might look at pulling together enough sources to create one), but this restaurant wasn’t notable and there’s not enough coverage of it to justify or salvage this page. Shelbystripes (talk) 03:22, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The sourcing for this article is essentially nothing but local "best of" lists and a travel guide-like blurb in the NYT. Ultimately fails WP:GNG. --Kinu ^t/_c 20:58, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Does not meet WP:NMMA or WP:GNG. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:30, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Danny Kingad

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He has no top tier fights so WP:NMMA is not met. I don't believe that the GNG is met since the coverage is typical sports coverage or is not from a reliable independent source. Sandals1 (talk) 19:22, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Subject fail WP:MMABIO without having any fights in top tier promotion or any major achievement in top tier fights and fails WP:GNG fights are routine sport coverage. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 12:49, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep ONE Championship is notable according to WP:MMABIO. PenulisHantu (talk) 16:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ONE is not a top tier MMA organization so WP:NMMA is not met. Papaursa (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: PenulisHantu, ONE championship is NOT a top tier MMA promotion as per WP:MMA or WP:MMABIO. I suggest you to go back and reread the pages. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 00:16, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Has no top tier fights the coverage is insufficient to meet WP:GNG. Papaursa (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Per PenulisHantu. Kingad has earned several wins, notably in ONE FC. He has been in the headlines this month. Therefore, the article is good enough to pass WP:NMMA. _SUPER ^ASTIG 23:51, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Thousands of fighter wins many fights just like many soccer players win matches, but in Wikipedia majority of them would not pass the notability guidelines. In AfD it is not enough win fights but pass notability guidelines and unfortunately he doest not. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 00:16, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Yunshui ^雲 _水 09:28, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Information Harvesting

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This appears to be original research about a product which is not notable. PROD was endorsed by Bearian and removed by DGG. SITH (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment removed prod because I doubt it's OR but it needed a more comprehensive check for references in the field than I could do. DGG ( talk ) 19:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I originally created this article but I'm not going to advocate strongly now for its being kept. This is an old article about an even older product. It seemed somewhat notable when I originally created this article, but as the product has receded further into the past, it seems less so now. I haven't edited this article in 13 years; if others who have edited it more recently wish to add to the discussion I may participate in this discussion. But I'm not going to be the primary advocate for keeping it. Dash77 (talk) 02:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Based on DGG's expertise as a researcher, I'm willing to hear what was said about it. Once notable, a thing is always notable. Bearian (talk) 17:38, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree and this is exactly why I'm not going to be a strong advocate to keep the article. Once something is notable I agree that it is always notable. However I created this article early in my 'career' as a Wikipedian, when I wasn't as familiar with Wikipedia's notability guidelines as I am now, so my having created the article is not strong evidence for it ever having been notable. I haven't touched the article since. I understand that multiple references from multiple sources are needed to establish notability. I was aware of the one reference that DGG provided but am not aware of any others as yet, so I'm not sure on whether this product is now or was ever notable. I'll also be interested in any further thoughts that DGG has. Dash77 (talk) 19:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would also add that I recall that Ralphe Wiggins, the creator of this product, had an article in the May 1992 issue of AI Expert entitled 'Docking a truck: A genetic fuzzy approach'. That was how I originally learned of Wiggins' work. However I don't recall whether the AI Expert article mentioned Information Harvesting or not, and I can't find a PDF of the article online. Even AI Expert itself, which was an important AI publication in its era, doesn't seem to have a Wikipedia article. Dash77 (talk) 20:05, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I added the old AI Expert reference to the article but I'm not sure if that is enough to establish notability. I would hope for a bit more in terms of references but can't find much out there. Dash77 (talk) 18:08, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Keep as the sources were found, but please add them to the article. Tone 20:11, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Game Theater XP

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A PROD was added on the basis that the product appears to be non-notable. A citation was added and the PROD was removed by DGG, however, I do not believe the cited coverage is significant enough alone to consider the product notable. SITH (talk) 14:41, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment removed prod because it needed a more comprehensive check for references in the field than I could do. DGG ( talk ) 19:10, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep 3-page review on Tom's Hardware, another 3-page review, IGN review, long review in the Globe and Mail. I think this is just what adaquate sources for a piece of notable hardware are going to look like, they'd all be fine to cite to build up a pretty good article here. And that's just from the first page of Google results. --Here2rewrite (talk) 19:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to Football Association of Maldives. Sandstein 12:50, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bassam Adeel Jaleel

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Promotional article on a non-notable football executive. BlameRuiner (talk) 14:52, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Redirect to Football Association of Maldives as possible search term, but no evidence of independent notability. Giant Snowman 18:26, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep I see room for improvement, there are sources on the internet and I see WP:GNG could be met. Also doesn't he qualify for an article via WP:POLITICIAN for his position? Govvy (talk) 21:31, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Wow, that was a headache to review. I'm deleting this one. Folks can bring it up at deletion review if they disagree. Thanks everyone for assuming good faith. Missvain (talk) 00:03, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

T. G. Mohandas

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A non notable worker of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and Bharatiya Janata Party from Kerala. The subject fails general notability guidelines, because there is no significant coverage of them. Also, the subject clearly fails notability guidelines for politicians. Kutyava (talk) 01:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment : See the Discussions Talk:T._G._Mohandas that the admin kept after the result of long discussions ,Please Remember Kutyava,Wikipedia is not the place to play your dirty politics. Padavalam Kuttan Pilla Talk 06:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Mr. Padavalam Kuttan Pilla the Wikipedia not a political party's platform. Bcs you explain the notability of the person as you are the creator of the article. Kutyava (talk) 09:43, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kutyava:You got it wrong, I didn't create it .but the notability of this article was once discussed.Check out his talk page- Talk:T._G._Mohandas -- Padavalam Kuttan Pilla Talk 10:51, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Padavalamkuttanpilla: Nothing explained on the page about the notability of the article. Kutyava (talk) 11:51, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kutyava: Please Watch this discussion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/TG_Mohandas — Preceding unsigned comment added by Padavalamkuttanpilla (talk • contribs) 12:26, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Padavalamkuttanpilla: Tell me what is the notability of the man as a lawyer, politician or sangh parivar worker. Authordom (talk) 04:42, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2020 January 9. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 18:25, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
KEEP There is no change in notability from eight months ago. Why is this here again so soon? GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 17:33, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@GenQuest: Is the lack of changes a cause of notability?Authordom (talk) 07:48, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Nothing has changed since the last deletion nomination. Still meets WP:GNG. ([1][2]) --RaviC (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@RaviC: Is the lack of changes a cause of notability? Some sources are notable but not a subject for his notability. Authordom (talk) 07:48, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment a review about the sources used in the article.

LINK 1; Source: The New Indian Express: Date: 09th August 2016 - This link is the source for establishing that he was Kerala state convener of Bharatiya Janata Party's Intellectual Cell. Are the position is notable? The Intellectual Cell is a wing of the Kerala state committee of the political party. The political party not a major in the state, only one seat in the Kerala Assembly and no any seat in Loksabha from Kerala. The source was used three times in the article separately.
LINK 2; Source: Haindava Keralam; Date: 28 October 2010 - This is a promotional release by a Sangh Parivar linked portal. Not a reliable source.
LINK 3; LINK 4; LINK 5; Sources: Non Reliable Malayalam portals - These are tag links not that sources.
LINK 6; LINK 7; Source:vod-videos.janamtv.com - These are links of a Portal linked to RSS and BJP authority of the state and these are not working properly, but redirecting to a YouTube channel.
LINK 8; Source:Janam TV; Date: 2017-03-09 - This a link of a Portal linked to RSS and BJP authority of the state.
LINK 9; LINK 10; LINK 11; LINK 12; LINK 13; Source: Some Malayalam portals - non reliable sources.

Some other sources like: Deccan Chronicle, The Hindu and The Times of India are good but they are not support his notability. Authordom (talk) 08:42, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A review about the "review":

TNIE is a highly reliable and independent source. TGM is not a politician and RSS is not a political party, even for a politician notability does not depend on whether his party is major or minor in a particular state. No problem in citing a source 3 or 15 times.
It's a website, NOT a portal. And from where did you got the information that it is linked to Sangh Parivar, your source?
NOT "portals". Mangalam and Chandrika are "newspapers", reliable and are among the oldest Malayalam dailies, with established reputation. Asianet News is a reliable and among the oldest news channels in Kerala, also THE most watched Malayalam news channel, per data from BARC.
Again, NOT a "portal", Janam TV is a news channel. Redirecting means it was once live, such sources should not be removed because of its current status. No matter BJP or INC, reliability depends on the specific content being cited. Do you find any problems with the content? If so then provide counter sources for justification.
Same as above.
Give me a break. Portals? Madhyamam is a reliable Malayalam newspaper, Asianet News and MediaOne TV (subsidiary of Madhyamam) are news channels. Not to mention that Madhyamam and MediaOne are Jamaat-e-Islami newspaper and channel, just noting.

He was already found to be notable. You can challenge it though. I support to Keep. 137.97.92.43 (talk) 19:41, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and Close:@Authordom:What do you mean..?? The major National and Malayalam news media are not reliable sources..??-- Padavalam Kuttan Pilla Talk 10:44, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why close? Authordom (talk) 11:59, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Subject fails WP:NPOL, WP:JOURNALIST. Also, there is no in-depth coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, so it fails WP:GNG too.- Akhiljaxxn (talk) 19:18, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He is NOT A POLITICIAN and he is not currently a journalist. He is a social critic and television personality, for which there is sufficient coverage to establish that. 2409:4073:83:D6EB:FCC8:DFE8:8EC1:CCFC (talk) 14:48, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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~~Comment~~ Delete

Does Intellectual Cell of BJP is notable?
Does Bharateeya Vichara Kendram notable?
Does Ayodhya Printers notable?

What makes a person of a non-Notable cell/organisation Notable? -❙❚❚❙❙ JinOy ❚❙❚❙❙ ✉ 12:25, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and Close *Comment

Does Intellectual Cell of BJP is notable? : The intellectual cell provides ideological inputs to the ruling party of India and has a considerable say in policy making : Please use new Indian express article 27th May 2017 By N V Ravindranathan Nair as reference, TG mohandas heads the ittelectual cell in Kerala which is a pan india support organisation for BJP

Does Bharateeya Vichara Kendram notable? : P parameshwaran the founder of Bharateeya vichara kendram was awarded with Padmavibhushan the second highest civilian honour in India , does that make him and his organisation notable ? : Ref Wikipedia : P. Parameswaran

Does Ayodhya Printers notable? : Ayodhya printers is the establishment which brings out Janmabhumi daily which is noted for it's fight against emergency . refrence Janmabhumi dialy : about -— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahit23 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mahit23: Intellectual Cell of BJP- I cannot find sufficient independent or third-party coverage to meet GNG for this. Bharateeya Vichara Kendram - The Wikipedia article was previously deleted because it fails to prove WP:GNG. See the deletion log here. Ayodhya Printers- No Sources available to Verify and no Significant coverage.-❙❚❚❙❙ JinOy ❚❙❚❙❙ ✉ 14:08, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your perception is wrong. He is not notable because he is the convener of BJP's Intellectual Cell or secretary of BVK or manager of Ayodhya Printers. He is notable because he's a well known social critic, public litigator, and television personality. Look at the opening sentence: T. G. Mohandas is an Indian orator, social critic, writer, lawyer, journalist and television presenter from Kerala. The rest of the positions all are additional data as it is his biographical article. 2409:4073:83:D6EB:FCC8:DFE8:8EC1:CCFC (talk) 15:43, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, the article seems to be more biased as well as here in Afd. So many Ip users and newbie users voted here. When gone to sources in the article, there is no independent sources to prove notablity of the Subject in all the cases mentioned above. Well known? Wikipedia is not a place to creates hoaxes. No sources has been provided in opening sentence to prove notability. The sources cited on Opening paragraph fails WP:NPOL. So i decided to support Delection.-❙❚❚❙❙ JinOy ❚❙❚❙❙ ✉ 12:10, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Non notable politician and journalits.Fails WP:SIGCOV. Kumblani (talk) 14:03, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He is NOT A POLITICIAN and he is not currently a journalist. He is a social critic and television personality, for which there is sufficient coverage to establish that. 2409:4073:83:D6EB:FCC8:DFE8:8EC1:CCFC (talk) 14:48, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep:T.G.Mohandas is a familiar figure to all and famous in different arenas. A lot of news articles are available about him.94.129.90.165 (talk) 15:04, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Non notable politician and journalits.Fails WP:SIGCOV. Mywikiupdates (talk) 07:24, 28 January 2020 (UTC)Mywikiupdates[reply]

Strong Keep He is a well known media personality and the sources are reliable WP:GNP clearly meet Anilp68 (talk) 16:30, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep: (or perhaps suggest no consensus with option to re-nom in 2 months) Going through early sources in the article I am just finding WP:SIGCOV but I observe possible bias in content lifted from the those articles and failing to give fuller context. While WP:NPOL appears failed there is some merit in cover otherwise. The AfD seems disrupted by by !votes by accounts little history or perhaps a vague wave at trying to accumulate a little history. I was going for Weak keep but the keep arguments don't counter the delete arguements well. Poor citations don't help; and if non-English language with poor incomplete citations (no trans-title or english quotes and of key points) are being used to cover content. Along with the bias of content taken from the article this is probably just about a delete. but there are real issues with people interfering with the article and having battles behind the scenes here. In fact I've looked at the previous AfD and with that I've enough for a weak keep, just. This AfD has been severely afflicted by Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process and I'd suggest peoples take a break.Djm-leighpark (talk) 00:47, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per GNG Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 05:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Iamreallygoodatcheckers: Can you explain about the notability of the person. Authordom (talk) 06:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The multiple reliable sources in the article establish notability. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 23:18, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can explain please. Authordom (talk) 03:03, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Procedural close. Procedural close. Delete discussion at Rfd (non-admin closure) scope_creep^Talk 21:59, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

F Line (Los Angeles Metro)

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LA Metro has tweaked the letter assignments and will no longer establish the "F Line." RickyCourtney (talk) 18:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Procedural close as this is a redirect not an article. Use RfD instead. Ajf773 (talk) 18:49, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:11, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Idle Theme Park Tycoon

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Non-notable game. No signs of significant coverage; fails WP:GNG. Spy-cicle💥 ^Talk? 17:49, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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KEEP Follows all guidelines and is correct in information Thursby16 (talk)

@Thursby16: The Idle Theme Park Tycoon has not met the General notability guideline. This is because the topic has not received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. If you could demonstrate how it does I will happily change my mind. In regards to your second point, I suggest reading this essay: WP:BUTITSTRUE. Regards Spy-cicle💥 ^Talk? 22:46, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete it does not meet all the guidelines since with the only references being an about us section for the developer and links to the App Store and Google Play Store it fails WP:N which calls for significant coverage by multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject.--69.157.252.96 (talk) 01:56, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Article only consists of primary sources, no secondary sources provided to establish notability. TheDeviantPro (talk) 00:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:11, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FearlessRevolution

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Non-notable website; no signs of reliable significant coverage. Fails WP:GNG. Most references used are unreliable forums. Spy-cicle💥 ^Talk? 17:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Does not seem to meet WP:NWEB --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:47, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Does not meet general notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:11, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keisha (actress)

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Sourcing is terrible. Doesn't meet current standards for a BLP Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per the depreciated WP:PORNBIO. Porn awards are no longer a free ride to notability. Wm335td (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete sourcing is terrible. I remember back in 2012 when someone lobbed an attack on Wikipedia for having more articles on pornographic film actresses than women poets. I am not sure even then that was actually true, it may just have been women poets were less likely to be categorized as such, while pornographic film actresses were always categorized as such, poets were often just in geneder neutral cats but pornographic actors never were (even when for unfathonable reasons we did not seperate non-pornographic actors by sex, despite this being the term where the male/female terms have survived the most, actress is still a word, poetess has been dead well over a century).John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:02, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete on account of subject failing WP:GNG. Porn awards, after the deprecation of WP:PORNBIO, no longer confer notability attributes on a person. -The Gnome (talk) 13:23, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: No sources at all in one of only four content sections is bad, but the AVN Hall of Fame and the XRCO Hall of Fame are not some unclear former WP:PORNBIO awards. The latter article literally says "some of the most notable adult entertainment works and workers", that matches WP:NARTIST "The person is regarded as an important figure" or "(c) won significant critical attention". –84.46.53.207 (talk) 07:35, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the independent indepth coverage of them being in the HOF showing these awards are meaningful within the wider world? Spartaz ^Humbug! 13:09, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I also can't tell why a Nebula award or Turing award are meaningful within the wider world, but whatever a good answer might be, it should not depend on a former enwiki-internal guideline or policy. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 05:56, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

i invite you to look at all the discussions relating to the red links in the list of project porn deletions and see how many were members of a HOF. Spartaz ^Humbug! 18:58, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to say that surviving ten years in the sex industry is automatically notable, I'm trying to say that it's not the same idea as those hilarious "sex toy" + Adultcon "roll of honor" awards I've removed from Sasha Grey. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 19:54, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nebula and Turing Award winners get mainstream press attention for these achievements (the very basis of wiki notability). The affected secondary guidelines (WP:ANYBIO, WP:NACTOR and WP:CREATIVE) rely on independent reliable sources that attest to the significance of the person's achievement. Porn awards, including hall of fame inductions, generally don't have that kind of independent support. • Gene93k (talk) 19:41, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw that you fixed the Adultcon {{notability}} tag, thanks, and a better answer than only an ACK in an edit summary: Out of curiosity I tried a BEFORE on 15th AVN Awards, there is one independent Adult Cinema Review source for this award. No MSM, but MSM (mis-)representing the wider world also don't always cover Nebula + Turing + Postel award + Hugo award + Fields Medal. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 21:44, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Despite my best efforts to dig up reliable secondary source material outside of non-mainstream porn sources, Ms. Keisha does not meet general notability guidelines. And alas, AVN is not a mainstream award - you can't even compare it to the the Nebula Awards, which get covered in mainstream publications. Basically, if you aren't into porn or in the industry, you likely don't care. You don't see the Los Angeles Times writing about the AVN awards like you do the Nebula Awards. We're working hard to cut out the cruft for WP:PORN and focusing on quality content about truly notable subjects. Now, once I gain access to Porn Journal and dig up some hard copy sources I'm trying to purchase and I find something about Keisha that helps her pass, I'm all about working on it... but for now, delete. Missvain (talk) 18:23, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:01, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nude weather reports

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Some topics are good ideas for encyclopedia articles. This doesn't seem like one of them. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 17:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Article topic lacks notability. SunCrow (talk) 19:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. I have been able to adequately reference the two existing examples, and after I walk a dog I'll be adding this one-time instance—sample quotation: "Elle a interrogé une habitante [de Poil], lui demandant si elle vivait 'à Poil toute l'année'. I'll feel more confident after I find some article talking about the phenomenon in general, but it is apparently A Thing. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Broaden and rename Nude news broadcasting. It appears to be a tiny genre, with broadcasters going on the air in the buff on Naked News and elsewhere. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:57, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. In my view the article lacks sufficient notability. A few non-notable examples were provided in the article, included a French lady streaking in a field, filmed from a distance. I'm trying to avoid using the contentious word "unencyclopedic", but the article lacks lasting notability and importance in my opinion. I don't think it's even important enough to include in the "Popular Culture" section of the article Depictions of nudity. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 03:40, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I like Clarityfiend's idea of broadening and renaming, if someone wants to do the work (or "research" lol) Missvain (talk) 18:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Lacks notability for stand alone article. Trivial. Kierzek (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete - a bit of a bizarre choice for an article if you ask me. Foxnpichu (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Broaden as per Clarityfiend.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete Frivolous, trivial subject.TH1980 (talk) 04:49, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:11, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aja (actress)

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Aja (pornographic actress)

Articles for deletion/Aja (actress)

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Notability is not inherited and the sources discuss films not her as an individual. This is thin gruel for a BLP. Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete not notable. Fails GNG. Porn industry awards do not confer notability per the depreciated WP:PORNBIO. Wm335td (talk) 18:52, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails the GNG. Industry awards are a PR push front.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:13, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Winning porn awards (WP:PORNBIO) was the only rationale for keeping this article at the previous AfD discussion despite the lack of good sources. Won-porn-awards-but-the-sources-are-crap porn biographies like this one were deleted even before PORNBIO was taken down. An independent search for sources yielded a brief book mention. No real claim for meeting WP:BASIC and WP:ENT notability needs more reliable support than Adult Video News. • Gene93k (talk) 16:52, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete on account of subject failing WP:GNG. Trying the inheritance angle does not fly. And porn awards, after the deprecation of WP:PORNBIO, no longer gift notability to a person. -The Gnome (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I was unable to find any reliable secondary sources on which I can build an article that meets notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Chasey Lain

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Only real world notability is in relation to The Ballad of Chasey Lain. Suggest a redirect after deletion Spartaz ^Humbug! 17:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete we no longer keep porn star bios unless there is SIGCOV. In this case there is not and we have recently depreciated WP:PORNBIO. Wm335td (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Lacks significant RS coverage needed to satisfy WP:BASIC or WP:ENT. Sources in the article don't qualify as significant coverage by independent reliable sources. An independent search for additional coverage gets a brief mention in an article concerning the After Porn Ends series. Lukewarm on a post-delete redirect over BLP over porn BLP concerns. • Gene93k (talk) 16:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete there is not enough significant coverage to justify a stand alone article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:18, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete since subject fails WP:GNG. Porn awards, after the deprecation of WP:PORNBIO, are simply not enough. -The Gnome (talk) 13:27, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect Subject does not meet general notability guidelines. Redirect to "The Ballad of Chasey Lain" Missvain (talk) 18:30, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Yunshui ^雲 _水 09:28, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mike Monroe

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Disambiguation page between four entries, three of which appear to be relatively minor fictional characters without articles of their own. One character is not even listed on the page that his link goes to. Only the fourth entry, Michael Monroe, is notable, and a disambiguation page is not needed for only one entry. Delete. JIP | Talk 11:26, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete we do not need such a page for 3 fictional characters and 1 real person, with only the last actually having an article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:12, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep we have a need and room for such a disambiguation page to aid the readers. WP:D " It is necessary to provide links and disambiguation pages so that readers typing in a reasonably likely topic name for more than one Wikipedia topic can quickly navigate to the article they seek." Wm335td (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, then redirect to List of Northern Exposure characters#Recurring characters. The EastEnders character isn't even on the linked list, we don't usually include characters from obscure, one-shot movies, and Michael Monroe is a non-Mike stage name. That leaves the Northern Exposure character, who has a story arc in the TV show, so a redirect seems acceptable, possibly with a redirect hatnote to Michael Monroe. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Disambiguation pages are essentially indexes that show readers where on Wikipedia that can get information on 'Mike Monroe'. That could be a brief mention or a lengthy article, but either way, we show the reader how to navigate there. If a link meets MOS:DABMENTION (i.e. a Mike Monroe is mentioned in an article), then that link should be there. The first entry was no longer valid as the EastEnders character was deleted from the list. The rest all meet the criteria laid out at MOS:D. Whether there's a primary topic is another question, although the musician would be the most notable, he's also rarely known as 'Mike'. I also added another entry. Boleyn (talk) 16:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The "minor" status of entries which have a mention in an article is not a policy reason to delete. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 20:11, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Wm335td, Boleyn and Shhhnotsoloud. Anyone typing the name Mike Monroe or even mistyping the name of the Australian TV presenter Mike Munro should be immediately able to see the current dab page layout of names and not be faced with a redlink or even with a redirect to List of Northern Exposure characters. Such a setup would only hinder Wikipedia's accessibility and help no one. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:17, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hug^syrup 17:25, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 09:01, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Harmless. Could be helpful to someone who hears the name and wants to shake it out of their brain. BD2412 T 02:23, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Tone 20:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Big World of Little Adam

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Doesn't appear to meet WP:NOTABILITY - it existed and had some coverage in non-notable publications. Boleyn (talk) 11:32, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep: The show is listed in the print books The Encyclopedia of Animated Television Shows and Television Cartoon Shows: An Illustrated Encyclopedia, as well as the website Don Markstein's Toonopedia. It packaged NASA documentaries for children, and has some relevance to the American public's understanding of the space race in the late 60s. Toughpigs (talk) 16:48, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep notability is not temporary for this 1960s cartoon. WP:NTEMP Toughpigs has demonstrated that sources exist. WP:NEXIST Wm335td (talk) 19:51, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Nothing to add to the discussion, but I find the opening keep argument convincing enough to lean that way for consensus. -2pou (talk) 14:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Deleting per HighKing's rationale. Thanks everyone for assuming good faith. Missvain (talk) 00:02, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comsec Consulting

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Non-notable consulting firm. There’s no reliable sourcing available on this firm; every source is a press release or other information directly from their website or a brief blurb on an internal industry newsletter, which is not something that can be used to establish notability and is probably not reliable. Michepman (talk) 13:14, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. No non-trivial coverage in reliable independent sources. Guy (help!) 13:28, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I can find things out there in reliable sources showing they are notable, certainly enough to pass WP:GNG and WP:42. [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], etc. --Jayron 32 13:31, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I saw those sources as well, but my thinking was that they fell under the definition of “trivial coverage” as defined by WP:NCORP.

for example, the third source you listed is about cybersecurity at the World Cup. A Comsec employee is quoted only once, as a source about the amount of phishing related spam emails sent during the Germany World Cup. That is not “significant coverage” since the article contains no information about Comsec and is just citing it for information about an unrelated topic.

The other sources (such as the first and second) fall under NCORP’s standard notices, brief announcements, and routine coverage, such as [...] of expansions, acquisitions, mergers, sales or of changes in share or bond prices (such as the Haaretz link you provided). As the guideline states, this type of coverage is not enough to establish notability. Michepman (talk) 15:01, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Except the Haaretz article is not just a change in share price. Sources are not invalidated simply because they mention share prices, sources should be assessed on the totality of their coverage, and the Haaretz source also discusses the organization of the company and some of its background. It's not a lot, but it is not merely a change in share price report. It's that and more information, which the and more information which is useful for notability purposes. Those sources are also not comprehensive. This dutch documentary appears to discuss the company in some detail. This computer weekly article discusses the company as well. This Times of India article, and This Ghanese news source, This other Haaretz article, etc. --Jayron 32 17:00, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Appears to have received no significant coverage other than self-published sources (press releases and website) and only incidental references outside of that. I agree that WP:NCORP controls. Alicb (talk) 15:03, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It appears to have coverage in a number of reputable sources. Keep. Rathfelder (talk) 18:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Jayron's sourcing establishes sufficient notability to pass NCORP. ——SN 54129 19:06, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Jayron has produced sufficient sources to establish notability. The Times of India piece in particular is convincing. Now some of that should make it into the article - current sourcing is indeed an abomination unto the Lord. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 19:10, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the sourcing found above. Meets WP:GNG. Jayron32 has located many. By a preponderance of evidence we can see notability. Wm335td (talk) 19:40, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, on balance. The Times of Israel piece and the Dutch documentary are probably enough to get it over the hump. --valereee (talk) 13:37, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the Times of Israel, Haaretz, Ghanese, and Dutch documentary as sources. I'm completely ignorant of cybersecurity issues, so anyone who does know them please check my work. --valereee (talk) 14:27, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Sources are low quality, rewritten press releases or mentions in passing. There is not much we can do with that. WP:CORPSPAM. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:54, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete The test is not merely for "reliable sources" or "independent sources". The criteria for establishing notability for companies/organizations as per WP:NCORP is for multiple sources (at least two) of *significant* coverage with *in-depth* information on the company and (this bit is important!) containing *Independent Content* which is defined as follows: "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. The "independent" "reliable" sources produced above by Jayron32 fail to meet the criteria for establishing notability as follows:
- Times of Israel reference is based entirely on press conference/interview/quotations from the CEO and CRO and does not contain Independent Content, fails WP:ORGIND
- Globes reference is based on a Press Release from Convertix, has no Independent Content, fails WP:ORGIND.
- EMERCE reference is entirely based on a company posting which is clearly stated at the top of the page, fails WP:ORGIND
- Security Intelligence reference is a mention-in-passing to a Comsec blog post on "Keep one eye on the ball and the other on the NET!", fails WP:CORPDEPTH, WP:SIGCOV and WP:ORGIND
- SC Media source in based entirely on an interview with the CEO, contains no Independent Content, fails WP:ORGIND
- Haaretz source is based on a normal quarterly announcement by the CEO/Chairman. It is stated above that "the Haaretz source also discusses the organization of the company and some of its background" but none of that comes from an source not connected with the company nor is the content clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. Fails WP:ORGIND.
- Cybernation reference is based on a company announcement from Eldav on its acquisition of Comsec, fails WP:ORGIND
I am unable to find any sources that meet the criteria for establishing notability, topic fails WP:NCORP/GNG HighKing⁺⁺ 13:19, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: To further discuss the quality of the sources.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 06:54, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Jayron on basis of gng. 2604:2000:E010:1100:6CE7:D625:5B30:1B91 (talk) 08:53, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per lack of multiple reliable sources as cited above by HighKing --Adamant1 (talk) 01:09, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, per HighKing's in-depth analysis. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:03, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

KIU System

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WP:PROMO for non-notable company HouseOfChange (talk) 16:53, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Article is indeed WP:PROMO, blatantly so.TH1980 (talk) 03:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bill Sipper

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Doesn't meet our standards for notability S Philbrick (Talk) 16:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are some thorny issues not immediately obvious if you look at the current version of the article. They are the subject of the confidential ticket:2020010810007402 , although some of the issues are directly and indirectly discussed at User_talk:Sphilbrick#Place_for_ResponseEditor_to_post

I will openly concede that I see arguments on both sides of the inclusion of this very negative information, and I'm ducking that issue by suggesting that the entire article should be deleted.

While you will note that it currently has no sources, that's a little misleading. If you look at a prior version:

here

You will see that some editor tried to add sources but did so improperly. They were removed in a recent trimming of the fluff.

After the removal of the fluff, even if someone went to the effort of coming up with sources for the claims in the article, this doesn't appear to meet our usual standards of notability.--S Philbrick (Talk) 16:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Doesn't meet WP:GNG either. A quick google search doesn't provide much to add. Lunar Clock (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this is an unsourced biography of a living person.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:14, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not close to meeting notability no matter how hard I look and I do try. Collect (talk) 22:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No sourcing and a further search didn't come up with much to establish GNG. Best, GPL93 (talk) 21:13, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was soft delete. WP:REFUND applies. RL0919 (talk) 03:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GameDev.net

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Non-notable website with no independent sourcing, and my own search turns up nothing but press releases. Fails WP:GNG, WP:WEB and WP:NCORP. Hug^syrup 16:20, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was soft delete. WP:REFUND applies. RL0919 (talk) 03:09, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cinephile (band)

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Despite being featured on CSI (which I suspect has featured an awful lot of bands over its hundreds of episodes), there's no real evidence this band is notable. No independent/secondary coverage I can find at all. A redirect to Kenny Inglis doesn't seem like a good solution as that article appears just as bad. Hug^syrup 16:15, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Amoebic Dysentery (band)

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Non-notable garage band signed to a non-notable label. Their claim to notability is amusing but doesn't quite cut it. 0 references in the article and my search turns up nothing further, although admittedly it's a little tricky searching given the name. Fails WP:GNG, WP:BAND etc. Hug^syrup 16:09, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. I have not found anything that indicates notability about this band. As I mentioned on the Neurovisceral Exhumation and Pathologist deletion page, goregrind is a very underground style. I have only found databases and trivial mentions. The only reliable source I could find was on Blabbermouth, but that article is not about the band's history (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/deathgasm-to-release-perverted-coloring-book-concept-album/). Even though Blabbermouth is a reliable source, there aren't any more sources that indicate notability. GhostDestroyer100 (talk) 13:27, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Does not pass general notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 18:31, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Draftify. Will move to draft space under the same title. RL0919 (talk) 03:18, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2021 Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters

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WP:TOOSOON. Only one cited source even sayes anything about what might happen in DTM 2021 with latter sources confirming that it won't actually happen until 2022. A google search to determine if this article could be expanded yields only sources which state that DTM might change its name (WP:CRYSTAL). In these article 2021 is only given a passing mention. Therefore this article fails WP:GNG.
SSSB (talk) 16:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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SSSB (talk) 16:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move to draftspace or author's sandbox. I think it will be better solution. Corvus tristis (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cpt Anarchy

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Video gamer showing no real evidence of notability. Sources are PR or primary, and my WP:BEFORE turns up nothing. Hug^syrup 16:06, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete No sigificant coverage; fails WP:GNG. Spy-cicle💥 ^Talk? 20:45, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Does not pass general notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Hug^syrup 16:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Saint Michael the Archangel Church (Monroe, Michigan)

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Non-notable church. The article is one big advertisement with text from its own website, and there is very little secondary information available online to support its importance. —Notorious4life (talk) 15:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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[9]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NotButtigieg (talk • contribs) 17:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep--this is considered a historic house of worship by the Detroit Historical Society. Here is a news article with in depth coverage about a special church service at the church. Along with references #1 and #3 from the article, this means the article is notable...also, here are three news articles about their employees[10] [11][12]Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:08, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The link provided above by NotButtigieg is a self-published source listed on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources as an unreliable source to be avoided when making references. This link (historic house of worship) simply lists the church on a Historic Houses of Worship tour, while providing no other information at all. Appearing on a list of four other Monroe churches for a commercial tour does not create notability. This news article is about a little girl's first communion with no additional information about the church itself. These three links, [13] [14][15], merely describe three employees at the church with no other descriptions about the church itself, other than the name of the church appearing as their new workplace. —Notorious4life (talk) 02:53, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"no additional information about the church itself"-the information about the parish is about half-way through--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 05:38, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep articles about buildings of historical and architectural interest are usually kept. It is passing the Earwig tool copyvio test and any promotionalism can be edited out, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 16:21, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Building of historical and architectural interest, this probably of NRHP quality. Article may need work, but not a reason to delete.Djflem (talk) 21:04, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per my standards for notable churches. "The building is more than 100 years old ("The present building was built from 1866-1867") ... "It ... is notable for its architecture" (see two images), and "It has been notably large for its denomination, either in the size of the buildings or its congregation numbers" (1,200 congregants). Bearian (talk) 22:18, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per others. Its parochial school adds to notability, too. About NRHP listing, many churches which would be eligible choose not to participate. --Doncram (talk) 14:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy keep. Nomination withdrawn. (non-admin closure) NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 16:08, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tobi Bakre

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Subject of the article clearly fails WP:GNG, WP:BIO and WP:ENTERTAINER, with the article written in a promotional tone. He participated in a popular reality TV show, Big Brother Naija (season 3), but failed to emerge as the winner. With all said, I don't see why we should have a standalone article about him at this time. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 15:53, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep: I think original editor wasn't aware of Wikipedia manual of style. I've made some changes including copy editing and adding new references. Removed promotional content. Looks notable now. Lunar Clock (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Lunar Clock: on what basis are you voting keep? On the basis of Wikipedia manual of style or removing promotional content?? NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 17:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nnadigoodluck: thank you for inquiry. I found some indepth converage and added few more citations as well. These includes Legit, The Punch and Guardian Nigeria. All of these are notable sources. And yes, I've remove promotional content and did some copy edit too. So yeah, they count as well. Lunar Clock (talk) 17:53, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: That he didn't win doesn't make him unsuitable for wikipedia, after all Ebuka Obi-Uchendu, DJ Bally, and Miyonse Amosu all have wikipedia pages but didn't win the show too. What matters is what he has been able to achieve. Tobi Bakre is a well known and grounded name in the Nigerian entertainment industry and by all means, notable for Wikipedia. Kojomo (talk) 17:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kojomo: As I noted, the subject of your article fails WP:GNG, WP:ENTERTAINER and WP:BIO. Being just known as you claimed doesn't warrant a standalone article for him at this time. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 17:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with @Nnadigoodluck: here. Just because others have pages doesn't mean he qualifies automatically. He has to pass through notability check too. Lunar Clock (talk) 17:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - under WP:ENTERTAINER I could see criterion #2 been satisfied as per WP:THREE i’d say there are more than 3 solid references which are are definitely WP:RS. Per WP:GNG in-depth significant coverage in reliable sources are not necessarily met but Wikipedia has a policy whereby multiple sources could be used to substantiate the notability of an individual. In all there’s no real reason for it to be deleted.Celestina007 (talk) 23:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. --Bongwarrior (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jenna Haze

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Sources are not good enough to meet the gng and porn awards no longer provide notability. Spartaz ^Humbug! 21:06, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per the deprecated WP:PORNBIO guidelines. Wm335td (talk) 21:15, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - Congratulations for nominating a GA-class article for deletion.[16] Is this a first? Haze passes WP:ENTERTAINER given that CNBC wrote that she was "arguably the most popular performer in the porn" in 2011[17] and was also rated as one of the 12 most popular porn actress in 2012[18]. She has the following coverage passing the GNG.[19][20][21][22][23][24] Her scenes have been the subject of academic criticism.[25][26][27] Oh, she has also won the usual multiple awards and hall of fame status that triggered the nomination, evidence toward WP:ANYBIO and WP:ENTERTAINER. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:14, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Are you serious considering this article for deletion? The subject person's really relevant for the twentieth century culture.u v u l u m (talk) 04:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete: She has had minor non-porn roles and her success in porn and notability is quite routine and unencyclopedic.--NL19931993 (talk) 23:01, 5 January 2020 (UTC)~~[reply]

User blocked for sockpuppetry. ミラ P 22:37, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Article fails both WP:GNG and WP:NACTOR, with almost all sources being porn mags. Inclusion in a list alongside many others and a single sentence does not qualify as a "significant cult following". The sources provided above are not reliable, with the exception of one, which is not enough to pass GNG. Devonian Wombat (talk) 05:15, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete since subject fails WP:NACTOR. An editor claimed Haze is "really relevant for the twentieth century culture." Since this is indeed, if true, a most significant attribute, our fellow editor is invited to help the AfD process by providing sources supporting the veracity of their claim. For my part, I could not unearth anything in the Britannica, any Art in America back issues lying around, or the Philosophy Today archives. -The Gnome (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As none of those publications are known for any coverage of porn-related topics at even the broadest cultural level (e.g. more than acknowledging it exists), that's hardly relevant. This argument is like claiming a a basketball player is non-notable because no specialist soccer, hockey or American football publications have covered him in depth. The Drover's Wife (talk) 18:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A claim was made, The Drover's Wife, that our subject is "really relevant for the twentieth century culture." To establish this, a Wikipedia editor's unsupported claim is, of course, not enough (not acceptable, actually). We need sources. There have been persons from all walks of life that have been assessed by Wikipedia-acceptable sources (not necessarily the ones I proffered, in way of example) as, indeedd, "culturally relevant," be they sculptors, painters, writers, actors, athletes, etc. Among porn performers, at least one porn film, the one starring Linda Lovelace (another often cited cultural icon), has been assessed as having wide cultural significance and we have major media sources as well as books and academic papers establishing this. If we cannot find many other persons or works related to the porn industry as having "cultural relevance" that is not some evidence of "anti-porn bias", but simply what sources contain.

In sum, we have no sources whatsoever supporting the claim made about the cultural significance of this AfD's subject. -The Gnome (talk) 00:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

She doesn't have to be considered "really relevant to the twentieth century culture" to have a Wikipedia article. She has to pass WP:GNG. These attempts to set up bars that have no basis in any Wikipedia notability guideline or policy whatsoever for the sake of finding something you can declare she doesn't pass are unique, to say the last. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:29, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You continue to comment in haste, The Drover's Wife. I'd suggest you slow down a bit and view things from a distance to gain some perspective. I did not claim that our subject person must be relevant to the culture of the 20th century or of any other century in order to have a Wikipedia article. What happened is that a claim was made by fellow editor Uvulum to that effect. (Uvulum wrote: "The subject person is really relevant for the twentieth century culture".) That has been the sole reasoning Uvulum gave for their Keep suggestion and I merely asked wherther we could have sources supporting that quite significant claim. Is it clear now?

This is a rather legthy AfD and people can be excused if they do not read through the whole thing. But they should do so if they intend to comment in it. Saves time. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 10:33, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You made an absurd argument suggesting that the lack of mention in Encyclopedia Britannica, an art publication (!) or Philosophy Today had any bearing whatsoever on assessing her cultural significance. I pointed out the fallaciousness of that reasoning. The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:41, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I gave examples of publications (and there are myriads of them) that we can use to show a person has "cultural significance". Jenna Haze does not have any such significance whatsoever. Uvulum claimed she has, but the claim is without any substance. And what you're doing here now is totally wrong! Admit that you grossly misunderstood the situation, and let it go. It's truly high time. -The Gnome (talk) 10:45, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't misunderstand anything: you, in your own words, right there, suggested that an absence of material in those sources was in any way relevant to a consideration of the cultural significance of the subject, knowing full well that neither of them deal with more than perhaps the broad existence of her line of work. People can always disagree about sourcing, but these ridiculous attempts to avoid having to have that discussion by trying to establish impossible bars or make up imaginary guidelines in the hope no one notices are going to get a predictably derisory response. The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - The article is listed as a good article. I believe the best procedure would be first discuss your good article condition and then a AfD. For respect to the process of defining good articles.Guilherme Burn (talk) 13:34, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. An article appearing on Wikipedia has to verifiably meet certain criteria of notability. And after it appears, the article may rise to become a great one, as far as presentation, sourcing, photos, language, etc, are concerned. But when the criteria for inclusion change, then we do not assess inclusion by "how well the article is written" but by whether or not its subject meeets the new criteria. WP:PORNBIO is out, folks! Articles, from stubs to GAs, that only meet WP:PORNBIO (a dead & buried criterion) are to be defenestratated. -The Gnome (talk) 13:44, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Morbidthoughts. Lots of references on this article. No, porn actors don't end up in Philosophy Today, but pornography is an interesting subject, and I think you should judge the notability on equivalent people. -- Toughpigs (talk) 17:56, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pornography is no longer a subject assessed by the criteria you personally set with your comments, . A porn related subject may well be notable in daily/everyday life but Wikinotabiolity is something different. Does our subject meet WP:NACTOR? This is a question we would not, of course, ask in real lie, but we do ask it here. -The Gnome (talk) 13:44, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He didn't refer to WP:PORNBIO, which was the only thing that was abolished; he argued that it met normal notability criteria, as he's perfectly entitled to do (and which it does). She's not an actor, so WP:NACTOR doesn't provide us helpful guidance here; rather, like for millions of other articles with no subject-specific criteria, we assess notability through the sources. The Drover's Wife (talk) 18:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have to show that our subject person meets the notability criteria of any other person. If to show that we only use porn-related sources, all wed be doing is establishing that the person exists and is related to porn; yet, there is no inherent notability in that! Invoking only or mainly porn-related sources, porn awards, multiple appearances on porn movies, and so on, in order to crash through WP:GNG is essentially proceeding as if WP:PORNBIO is still with us. And I'm saying, let it rest in peace. -The Gnome (talk) 10:42, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, if we only use porn-related sources for someone who is primarily notable for being involved in porn, we'd be doing what happens in every other area, specific criteria or not, and using the most obviously relevant sources for the subject. Any article on any subject that doesn't have a subject-specific guideline and has to be assessed via WP:GNG is probably going to heavily feature sources generally focused on that subject. Porn is not different because you'd like it to be. As Wikipedia:Notability says, "Subject-specific notability guidelines... may provide information on how to make these editorial decisions in particular subject areas": if you deprecate the subject-specific information on how to make those decisions, it just means that one goes back to general guidelines. What you clearly want is a guideline that specifically excludes consideration of the factors that used to constitute WP:PORNBIO in making decisions about notability, but that's not in any sense what that RfC asked, was argued, or was closed as. If you want that, then I'm afraid you'd better get writing and get a new RfC underway. The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:50, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You may carry on in your mistaken understandiing that porn-related persons possess inherent notability by being, for example, prominent porn actors. And that using porn-related sources is all it takes to keep them up. That is your prerogative. What you cannot do is make personal judgements about your fellow editors, as you have done throughout the discussion (e.g. "porn is not different because you'd like it to be"). You are kindly requested to adhere to WP:AGF. Mistakes are free and all-you-can-eat; boorishness is a no no. -The Gnome (talk) 11:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You still seem to be confused about the difference between inherent notability and notability: she can't be inherently notable as there's now no subject-specific guideline, but her prominence certainly is a factor in considering general notability, as it is for anyone else. (The reason many of these AfDs are succeeding with minimal if any opposition is because WP:PORNBIO led to a ton of articles on people who just weren't prominent enough to pass WP:GNG.) But let's take a step back: please point me to the specific wording in an existent Wikipedia guideline that supports the interpretation that porn-related sources or claims to notability are irrelevant for consideration under the WP:GNG. You can't do that. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:08, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep - Notability has already been established by the GA process. Morbidthoughts has proved that claims that the article fails WP:GNG and WP:NACTOR are unfounded. Another vexatious AfD from the anti-porn brigade. --John B123 (talk) 18:46, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Claiming ulterior motives behind the AfD process amounts to a serious violation of our obligation to assume good faith and a personal attack. Let's focus on the discussion and leave home the unnecessary roughness. -The Gnome (talk) 13:44, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you think I have violated guidelines take to to the appropriate Administrators Noticeboard, if not don't throw mud to try and discredit opposition to the nomination. --John B123 (talk) 16:57, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, John B123, I do think you are in violation of Wikipedia guidelines by throwing around accusations of conspiracy but I won't bother with ANI. If you think your behavior is good in this exchange, carry on. -The Gnome (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Let me reveal this: When the criteria change things get changed! If tomorrow, for example, the consenus is that hockey players are not notable as such and they have to satisfy some other, general criteria, we would see a tsunami hiting the articles of hockey players. It's important to underatand this!

And that would happen NOT because some editors have an "anti-hockey" agenda or whatever, but because when the criteria change, Wikipedia changes! The deprecation of WP:PORNBIO denies porn related subjects the Wikinotability it previously afforded them. It is normal (nay, it is to be expected) that porn related articles will start getting deleted. So, please, let's all try to get along, without any aggravation. AfDs are enough work as it is. -The Gnome (talk) 13:44, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's very interesting, but the simple fact is that the anti-porn brigade started to AfD these article before WP:PORNBIO was depreciated, and in fact the same editors were the front runners in PORNBIO being depreciated. --John B123 (talk) 16:50, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Gnome fundamentally misunderstands Wikipedia notability policy re: subject-specific guidelines" The deprecation of WP:PORNBIO does not "[deny] porn-rleated subjects the Wikinotability it previously afforded them" in any sense whatsoever. It denies them the inherent notability it previously afforded them, which is a completely different thing. Since nobody arguing to keep the article is relying on the deprecated inherent notability arguments bu, we need sources;t rather going back to general notability guidelines, The Gnome's comment isn't relevant to this AfD at all. The Drover's Wife (talk) 18:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I actually misunderstand precisely nothing, The Drover's Wife, since what you're saying is what I just said. The deprecation of WP:PORNBIO indeed dEnies porn-related persons the inherent notabilty it previously afforded them, as you put it - or the (inherent) Wikinotablity it previously afforded them. And, I extend the rationalization, therefore, we have to assess those persons' notability by other, specific criteria, i.e. WP:ENTERTAINER, WP:CREATIVE, WP:GNG, and do on. (What has changed via the deprecation of WP:PORNBIO abt sources & awards I explain further below, in response to another remark you made.) -The Gnome (talk) 00:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ENTERTAINER and WP:CREATIVE aren't relevant to porn performers, so, as with many areas, we've got to rely on the WP:GNG. The deprecation of WP:PORNBIO said absolutely nothing about sources: any question of sources wasn't put in the RfC, wasn't discussed in any significance during the RfC, and there was no mention of it in the closer's remarks about the RfC. The attempt to stretch the very clear and unarguable outcome of that RfC to that desired outcome is trying to take two and two and argue that you've got twenty-seven. The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:41, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear that you do not understand the consequences of having WP:PORNBIO deprecated and particulary the relevance of what it contained that has now been stricken off. Continue to believe that we can treat porn-related subjects as if WP:PORNBIO is still with us. There has never been an argument from my part as to WP:GNG, since this is the set of criteria to which the notability claim of porn related persons has gravitated. You may .continue to use porn-related sources, porn awards, and the like, to establish WP:GNG notability. Do so and see how far this gets you. -The Gnome (talk) 10:54, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no clearer way to say this: deprecating a subject-specific guideline does not mean that anything that was previously referred to in that guideline is explicitly excluded from any consideration regarding notability. You need to actually amend the guidelines to say that, and that requires an RfC of itself. It doesn't happen because you wish really hard. You could actually propose this, or you could repeat the extent to which you've misunderstood how subject-specific guidelines work on failed AfD after failed AfD when notable people get nominated and your entire argument is based on imaginary guidelines. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do not know about this alleged anti-porn conspiracy in Wikipedia (and, frankly, this sounds a bit ludicrous). What is certain is that even is such an "anti-porn" crusade was underway before the deprecation of WP:PORNBIO, each case would have been assessed, as I'm sure it was, through taking WP:PORNBIO into account. Now, not any more. Quite simple, really. -The Gnome (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Gnome: It is true that the deprecation of WP:PORNBIO means that some porn related articles will get deleted. However, that does not mean that every porn related article nominated for deletion will get deleted. Looking at Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography/Deletion, in the last month there were about 30 articles about people involved in porn that were deleted, with 7 Keeps. There are currently 9 active deletion debates about people involved in porn, and this is the only one that's facing significant opposition, probably because of the Good Article status. I agree that getting along without aggravation is a worthwhile goal; the easiest way to achieve that might be to let this particular article stand, and be content with the 30-40 articles that are or will soon be deleted. -- Toughpigs (talk) 19:12, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings, Toughpigs. The AfD process is not an invitation for trade. If one article must go, it must go. If one hundred articlesmust go, they must go. There is no room for error here, i.e. no room for "pet projects", "sentimental attachments", or simple personal preferences. If the deprecation of WP:PORNBIO means that one thousand articles must go, because they nolonger meet the current, post-deprecation criteria, then they must go. It's truly very simple, as simple as it can get. -The Gnome (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Gnome, whether one, a hundred or a thousand articles "must go" is not up to one person to decide; it's decided case by case in these discussions. I think your passion for a clean sweep in this subject area is weakening your case for this individual discussion. If it truly is "very simple", then why do you have to work this hard to accomplish your goal? -- Toughpigs (talk) 01:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Who said anything about one person deciding the fate of articles? Who said anything about actually deleting hundreds of articles? Who said anything about "sweeps", clean or not so clean? Certainly not me. AfDs are decided by editors' consensus. The possibility of many ("hundreds") of articles getgting deleted arises every time such a drastic change in criteria happens, but possibility does not mean certainty. Each AfD should be examined on its own merits.

All I'm doing, Toughpigs, is elaborating on the new status of criteria for porn-related subjects (persons, in particular). The change itself is very simple. The resistance to the change is not, which is understandable since there has obviously been a lot of work in creating and maintaining many of the affected articles. At the end of the day, all that I'm "passionate" about is having the extant criteria applied. Which, again, is as simple as it gets. Mistaking this for some kind of "anti-porn" agenda is a serious error, though it is your privilege. -The Gnome (talk) 10:22, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for lack of significant coverage in reliable secondary sources. The fact that the article is GA is not material to notability. In any case, the article was promoted in 2008 when the standards were much more lax. For example, most citatitions are from promotional industry publications (WP:SPIP), non RS web sites, IMDB, and so on. Arguments such as WP:INTERESTING are not helpful in deletion discussions. The annual listicles from a CNBC journalist (?) do not provide significant coverage for the subject: [[28]]. I'm not seeing notability here under WP:BIO / WP:ENT. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:43, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, RL0919 (talk) 15:45, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Clearly meets GNG as demostrated above. This is getting ridiculous. I cannot believe this was even considered. It is impossible to fully tell the history of the porn in internet age without giving significant attention to Haze. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings, Coffeeandcrumbs. Could you please provide verifiable evidence that our subject is so important that she meets Wikipedia's notability criteria? As always, I'm willing to change my mind when the facts change!

-The Gnome (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete If the best source I can find is a tabloid journalism piece explaining her association with Tiffany Trump, then that's just not good enough - WP:BLPSOURCES takes priority. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 18:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. There's more than enough here to pass GNG. A couple of editors seem to be taking a position of "excluding sources discussing what she's notable for, she doesn't pass WP:GNG" which is not how that works. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:09, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings, The Drover's Wife. Please note that sources demonstrating notability in the porn business no longer qualify as supportive of notability, not after WP:PORNBIO has been conclusively deprecated. This is why all the (numerous) sources showing that our subject is a well known member of the porn industry are excluded from the evidence; not for any other reason. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 12:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is a mischaracterization. The only thing that deprecation of PORNBIO indicates is that the awards do not count for notability. If you want to deprecate the AVN as an unreliable source for porn subjects, that consensus needs to be established at WP:RSN. As of now AVN as a source counts toward GNG. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 17:50, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As Coffeeandcrumbs says, that's completely untrue. Deprecating a subject-specific notability guideline means that there is no longer a pathway to automatic, inherent notability for articles within that subject and articles within it then are assessed according to WP:GNG; it does not mean that articles within that subject are assumed to be non-notable unless they also have notability in another subject. There is no basis in any Wikipedia policy or guideline or even reasoned WP:IAR argument about that one, just a couple of people with very strong opinions getting overly hopeful. As I said originally, that's just not how this works. It's also a position that's going to harm your case sooner or later: I'm someone who thinks we had way too many articles on people in porn for many reasons and would have supported the deprecation of PORNBIO if I'd seen it, but if the same couple of people keep going after actually-notable people on this obviously-incorrect misconception of the deletion process it's likely going to inspire a move to replace it with something instead of just using GNG. The Drover's Wife (talk) 18:33, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'll state again that a person in the porn industry needs to meet the criteria to which WP:PORNBIO redirects us - nothing more and nothing less. A person who has worked exclusively within the porn industry need not possess Wikinotability elsewhere to have an article about that subject merit an inclusion. That's as clear as it can get! We should be having very easy discussions about the porn-related subjects put through the AfD process but insread we get arguments about this or that porn award. Well, when a criterion is stricken off, The Drover's Wife, the text that we deprecate is significant in helping us understand what precisely has changhed. Here's the relevant text of WP:PORNBIO, as it once stood: [The subject must have:] won a well-known award such as an AVN Award; received nominations for well-known awards in multiple years; received nominations for well-known awards in multiple years; made unique contributions to a specific pornographic genre, such as beginning a trend in pornography; starred in an iconic, groundbreaking or blockbuster feature; or been a member of an industry Hall of Fame such as the AVN, the XRCO or equivalent. All that is now gone. -The Gnome (talk) 00:55, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The RFC that deprecated WP:PORNBIO said nothing about any claim that those it applied to would instead have to meet WP:NACTOR: the vast majority of people arguing for its deprecation didn't make that argument, accordingly, the closer said nothing whatsoever that would support that claim. The redirect was made as later as a WP:BOLD move by some random user after a brief discussion had resolved to do something else entirely with the redirect and has no basis in policy, guideline or even any past discussion whatsoever, so no, these articles do not need to meet the criteria to which WP:PORNBIO redirects.

Again, WP:PORNBIO deprecated the notion that the criteria you listed were grounds for inherent notability - that is, grounds for an automatic keep regardless of sourcing. It did not, in any sense, mean that they are irrelevant to notability - it just means that they need to be considered on the same basis as every other claim to notability that isn't specifically prescribed (either as inherently notable or as definitively not relevant to notability) under a subject-specific guideline (which includes a huge proportion of Wikipedia biographies). Again, on both counts this demonstrates some fundamental misunderstandings about how Wikipedia notability guidelines work: people might well disagree on sources, but your arguments here are based on a belief that is objectively wrong. In short, what you're advocating would require a completely different and likely much more contentious RfC to actually change guidelines to incorporate that belief; there's no basis whatsoever for it in current guidelines. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:29, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again, porn-award-rendered notability has been defenestrated. With WP:PORNBIO in place, porn awards were assigning to a person notability; after its demise, they do not. As to the deprecation RfC saying nothing about persons now having to meet WP:NACTOR, etc, hitting the link to WP:PORNBIO now, see where it takes you.

But do carry on arguing that only the automatic keep of porn-related persons has ben lost and that AVN (for example) render notability. The whole thing is getting absurd. -The Gnome (talk) 10:22, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please point me to the specific wording in a Wikipedia guideline that supports the interpretation that porn-related sources or claims to notability are irrelevant for consideration under the WP:GNG. You can't, because it wasn't the subject of the RfC, few if any people argued it and the closer's comments didn't refer to it whatsoever. WP:PORNBIO now takes you to the page the discussion at the time actually agreed on, which was simply a page explaining that it had been deprecated and pointing people to the discussion. As for needing to meet WP:NACTOR: you cannot simply make up stuff because you think it's convenient when both the RfC discussion and the closer's remarks are clearly available to anyone wants to read them. Again, few people raised the issue, the unambiguous close notes accordingly provide absolutely no basis for that interpretation, and the only discussion that's ever been had about the shortcut did not support even the technical matter of redirecting it there let alone making any conclusions about requiring meeting WP:NACTOR. The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:33, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

look at the project porn list of deletion discussions towards t he top of this discuss ion and look the discussions relati ng to the red links and you will cle arly see your argument has absolutely no.basis in what we actually do. Spartaz ^Humbug! 19:03, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you're suggesting or even who you're responding to. The Drover's Wife (talk) 22:36, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~Delete~~ Keep Changed my mind after seeing the evidence presented. Looks like I'll have another project! Great work. Missvain (talk) 18:49, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"I couldn't find any really good, solid material about her that would make me convinced she's notable, outside of making a video for a rock band and staring in pornographic films" You are making a WP:VALINFO or WP:NOTVALUABLE argument. You and I may not think what the sources are covering is important,[29] but the point is they do. There are three academic journal articles that provide criticism of her scenes. They could have chosen any scene, but they chose hers. Morbidthoughts (talk) 04:46, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, cool! If that is significant coverage (I could not access the journals) then right on. Trust me, I'm the *last* person who wants to see women who should have Wikipedia articles deleted. I also edited my comment, I do not want to be ever belittle sex work, to reflect that she has been in many pornographic films, but perhaps many have not been significantly covered in reliable secondary sources. I'd be delighted to see the article kept, I just struggled to find anything I considered significant. Thanks for your contributions! Missvain (talk) 18:19, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Minor thing, but re: [30] - per WP:REDACT better the strike rather than replace if anyone has responded/time has gone by (keeping context for other people's comments). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 19:57, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

~~On the fence~~see below - It's a difficult one. I started with a typical search, then looked into the academic sources linked above. I can only access two of the three, but neither of them are significant coverage of Haze. They talk about particular films she's in and mention her only insofar as to refer to what her character does without saying anything of substance about Haze herself. That contributes to the notability of those films, but doesn't do much for Haze herself. The other part of the equation here is more interesting, and that's what to do with someone who has received a lot of coverage/recognition within an industry, but largely limited to that industry. We have mainstream sources making claims about her being particularly popular/successful, but they take the form of listicles and go into very little detail about why she's popular/successful beyond listing industry awards. We need significant coverage in reliable sources. That it's a GA doesn't matter. The GA review is 12 years old, when many of our policies and guidelines were interpreted differently, especially notability. It's not a free pass to further scrutiny. I'm probably coming down on weak delete, but will sit on the fence to see if anyone can dig up significant coverage from a reliable source (not an item in a listicle, not claims about numbers of videos/awards -- in depth coverage in a good source). — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:56, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep - Updating per the sources Aircorn dug up. They're not all great, but there's enough across all these sources to meet GNG. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 22:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Note to closer. Notability is not a requirement of a Good Article. Have no opinion on the merits of keeping or delisting. AIRcorn (talk) 09:53, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'd disagree there, from Wikipedia:Featured article criteria: In addition to meeting the policies regarding content for all Wikipedia articles .... Notability is one of the "policies regarding content". --John B123 (talk) 17:57, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have much to do with Featured content so won't speak for them. I am however very involved in the GA process (that's how I saw this AFD) and we do not assess notability when reviewing. A non-notable subject is unlikely to meet the broad requirement, but it does happen. Being a good article does not prevent it from being merged, deleted, redirected or undergoing other major changes anymore than any other article here. AIRcorn (talk) 22:26, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Did some more...ahem research... and there is enough references out there. [31][32][33][34][35][36][37] AIRcorn (talk) 10:18, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per WP:GNG based on sources found by others in this discussion. TJMSmith (talk) 03:18, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: @Aircorn: found sources, but they need to be analyzed to prevent this WP:GA from being deleted, so a second relist is needed.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ミラ P 18:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep a few editors did some work here and discovered that the person has some notability. I initially rejected the article based on Pornbio. Wm335td (talk) 20:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The result was delete. Tone 20:13, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lviv Convention Bureau

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No claim to any notability. Fails WP:NORG. Deleted in Ukrainian Wikipedia. Mitte27 (talk) 15:27, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Mitte27 (talk) 15:27, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. Mitte27 (talk) 15:27, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Fails general notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 19:41, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. One review does not meet WP:NPERIODICAL or [{WP:GNG]], even if it was written by E. Gary Gygax. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:25, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dankendismal

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A short-lived fanzine (8 issues) that got one short review in a short-lived magazine (7 issues). The full review is this: "DANKENDISMAL is a mimeo D & D ‘zine from John Morrison, 327 MaylandAv., Moorestown, NJ 08057. It contains some interesting ideas, though it is ratherlacking in organization. It is well worth the bargain price of 10¢ plus a SASE, butuntil we see how it grows, we rate it UNDECIDED"

No idea how this is supposed to be a notable magazine, and the abundance of 10 Google hits[38] didn't really overwhelm me either. Fram (talk) 15:06, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep One correction to the OP: Strategic Review only has seven issues because it was retitled The Dragon, the pre-eminent games industry journal for almost 30 years. The review in the pages of SR #6, while short, is by none other than Gary Gygax, co-developer of Dungeons & Dragons. For industry giant Gygax to take note of Dankendismal, however brief, is notable. The fact that Bowling Green University made the decision to archive a collection of the 'zine also suggests notability.Guinness323 (talk) 17:49, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the correction. That a university library keeps some ephemera is standard practice and is not an indication of notability (heck, they may have been part of a large collection that was donated in toto, no indication that the uni went out of its way to get hold of this fanzine in any case). They have quite a few of these D&D fanzines in any case[39]. Hardly an indication of notability, just like an extremely short note about this, even by a notable (but not independent) person. Fram (talk) 05:32, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per input from Guinness323, and per WP:PRESERVE and WP:ATD. BOZ (talk) 00:00, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment WP:PRESERVE is not a catch all to just keep all content, regardless of notability or sources. And what WP:ATD are you proposing here? I don't think you can just cite an alternative to deletion, and have your alternative just be not deletion. Rorshacma (talk) 16:34, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Regardless of who wrote the review, it is still an incredibly brief, three sentence blurb. It is also, seemingly, the only source available regarding this minor publication. That single, brief source is, alone, not enough to come close to passing the WP:GNG. Notability is also not inherited, so the fact that Gygax wrote three sentences regarding it does not confer any special bonus notability to those three sentences. Rorshacma (talk) 06:32, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hug^syrup 16:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Not enough media coverage however if it was a pricey collectible it might be notable but the is no evidence of that, doesn’t help that it was a short run of publications. Jaxbrother (talk) 17:05, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting one more time to encourage more participation by the community. Thanks everyone for your participation and assuming good faith!
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, one review is not enough to establish notability. Devonian Wombat talk) 01:59, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Deleting per the rationale presented by the nominator and Rorschacma. I used to actually play Vampire back in the day. I loved the Dark Ages... Missvain (talk) 16:22, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vampire: The Dark Ages Storytellers Screen

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So, this is a screen you could by for a game, which had no other value than hiding the "storyteller" in a slightly more decorative manner, but played no further role, made no difference, had no impact, won no awards, ... It got a "review" in an apparently extremely completist niche magazine, the kind that reviews everything in its niche, and has sunk to oblivion since. Comparable to last years Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unitrays by the same editor it seems. Fram (talk) 15:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - That single source is not nearly enough for this product to pass the WP:GNG. I'm not finding anything else of any substance regarding the product, so unless further reliable sources can be found, I can't see this being considered to be notable at all. Rorshacma (talk) 17:23, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep if more sources can be found, otherwise merge the review to Vampire: The Dark Ages. BOZ (talk) 15:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Per WP:UNDUE, this has no place in the general Vampire: The Dark Ages, as it is a piece of pure trivia. And if you, as article creator and with knowledge of the topic, don't know of further sources, then the chances that anything but the obscure would exist seems minimal. Fram (talk) 08:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hug^syrup 16:50, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per BOZ. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 01:46, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a "delete" then? Since, well, no more sources have been found, so the "if" part of their keep is not fulfilled... Fram (talk) 05:33, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Draftify.. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ahnenblatt

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Ahnenblatt is a commercial software. The page has zero independent sources that cover the topic. It is written as a blatant product description.

Source analysis:

1 https://www.ahnenblatt.de/abinfo.htm Company site. Not independent, and broken

2 https://github.com/matthiasbock/python-ahn No prose

3 https://www.ahnenblatt.com/why-is-it-called-ahnenblatt/ Company site. Not independent

In some places it is described as freeware, but it is a for-profit product. [40]

Searching, I can find some very thin reviewing, and no independent coverage. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

17 October 2008, the article was PRODded by User:12.76.131.164 with
"concern = This article was written and edited by the developer of this software. It is nothing but a billboard for his product."
--SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:31, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 00:16, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Delete - Fails software notability because the article is about what its manufacturer says about it, and not what third parties say. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I found an independent source covering this.^[1] I don't know if it's reliable, but it's something. Glades12 (talk) 14:56, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Henrik Kalling (30 July 2015). "Programtips: Ahnenblatt 2.88" [Program tip: Ahnenblatt 2.88]. Datormagazin (in Swedish). Omsoc Publishing. Retrieved 2 January 2020.

Datormagazin is a RS, but few phrases certainly do not constitute broad enough coverage to establish notability. My search in German and Czech online sources was unsuccessful so far. Too bad, it is really a nice application - fast, with simple UI and powerful features. Pavlor (talk) 08:47, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I've added more references — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiBase (talk • contribs) 14:14, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

None of the sources you cited (excluding Tech Advisor) seem independent and reliable; thus, they do not demonstrate notability. Glades12 (talk) 20:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tamura Jones is a world-wide recognized technology expert in the field of genealogy software and he annually publishes an online award called GeneAwards. A mention by name is a kind of major international award.^[1]
Ahnenblatt is the only German software among four others who is asked for to integrate the search technology of MyHeritage (which is one of the big three international online genealogy services in the world)^[2]
Ahnenblatt is the most popular genealogy software in Germany, is available in more than 20 languages and has users all over the world. Here is a link to an errata German pdf file with the result of a user poll in 2018 of Germans biggest computer genealogy society called 'Verein für Computergenealogie' (normally they publish the results only in a printed magazine - this is only an errata file): ^[3]
Ahnenblatt has top ratings on online review portal GenSoftReviews, where over 1.000 genealogy software are listed and only a few get an user choice award. Ahnenblatt got this annually since 2012. ^[4] ^[5] — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiBase (talk • contribs) 00:54, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Very popular in Germany: Most uploads in 2019 to biggest Germany-located family database (called GEDBAS) came from Ahnenblatt.^[6]
Very popular in Poland: one of the most popular free genealogy programs in Poland.^[7]
Yet another software review^[8]
Some more information about Ahnenblatt's user choice award on GenSoftReviews^[9]^[10] — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiBase (talk • contribs) 12:22, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DiBase: None of those are reliable sources, and popularity is irrelevant to on-wiki notability. Please read the pages I linked here. Glades12 (talk) 16:30, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see "pages you linked here". There is only one link to download page of (commercial) Datormagazin with only a small text. And this is a more reliable source than a software review of an independant blogger or techexpert? And to have a partnership with one of the biggest world-wide genealogy online services (MyHeritage) is not notable? Yes, I wrote "popular", but this means also a big number of users. Is a big market share not notable?

I meant in my reply to your first post on this page. Glades12 (talk) 07:44, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some (German) links similar to Datormagazine. Perhaps they can convince you ... ^[11]^[12]^[13]^[14]^[15]^[16]^[17]^[18]^[19] — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiBase (talk • contribs) 19:14, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And here are some links to scientific publications found with Google Scholar ^[20]: ^[21]^[22]^[23]

This AfD is being WP:Reference bomb-ed. Some are not worthless (eg http://www.geneapress.com/search?q=Ahnenblatt showing that it is one of multiple similar programs being regularly reviewed, but it is arguable whether review data constitutes secondary source coverage), and others are very likely disallowed "Native advertising", the main sign being download links in the middle of the coverage. I also choke on sources that include hatnotes such as "Ahnenblatt is a free program for genealogy research, with which you can create your personal family tree." This is skirting around the fact that it is for-profit software using the freemium model.

Please, if you think it is notable, meeting WP:GNG, give the WP:THREE best notability-attesting sources, or point to specifics in WP:NSOFTWARE. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:07, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for reference-bombing. This was not my intention. But I am unsure what you would see as notable or as a reliable source. So far I gave references to awards, blogs, reviews with/without download button, research and education publications. Nothing made you happy so far ...
- Sorry? You are certainly reference bombing. It takes more effort to explain why each weak source doesn’t demonstrate than it takes for you to list it.

For notability, the source needs to be:

* Reliable, like any source. Not a blog.

* Independent. Independent of the software, it’s authors, distributors, associated company.

* Comment directly on the topic, say something qualitative about the topic.

A reliably published independent review of the software that compares it with similar software would be great.

Please list three (3), not more, that you think seriously meet the above.

Please sign your posts with four tildes (~), which auto converts into a linked dated signature.

—SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:12, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I give up ... you always will find a reason why a source is not good enough (e.g. Advertising what you forgot to mention in your last posting). DiBase (talk) 22:55, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DiBase (talk · contribs), don't give up. I have looked at your sources, and some of them are worth serious consideration. Did you read these sources? If yes, surely you had some idea about which included independent commentary. If no, are you admitting to robotically dumping search hits on this discussion? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:49, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have read all the articles ... from the scientific papers only a few excerpts ...DiBase (talk) 20:07, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A review I forgot to reference (without any advertising or download button): ^[24]
About license model: Ahnenblatt was initial released 2001 as freeware. In May 2019 (after 18 years being free) the new version 3 was published commercial, while the last free version 2.99 staid still available for download for free. If you find older references, Ahnenblatt is called freeware - and that was true at that time.

^ https://www.google.de/search?safe=active&ei=tjERXtDgEcnQwALb2L2IBg&q=site%3Awww.tamurajones.net+ahnenblatt&oq=site%3Awww.tamurajones.net+ahnenblatt&gs_l=psy-ab.3...17750.19095..20430...0.0..0.70.322.5......0....1j2..gws-wiz.J4zu6zYFVfg&ved=0ahUKEwjQk6_mnevmAhVJKFAKHVtsD2EQ4dUDCAo&uact=5
^ https://blog.myheritage.de/2018/08/ahnenblatt-fuegt-myheritage-matching-technologien-hinzu/
^ http://www.computergenealogie.de/downloads/CG_PDFs/[2018-03]_Linkliste.pdf
^ http://www.geneapress.com/search?q=Ahnenblatt
^ http://www.gensoftreviews.com/awards.php
^ https://www.compgen.de/2020/01/gedbas-jahresrueckblick-2019/
^ https://yourrootsinpoland.com/blog-en/genealogy-portals-and-programs-where-to-build-your-family-tree/
^ https://sanet.st/blogs/casper03/ahnenblatt_a_multilingual__portable.2684950.html
^ http://www.beholdgenealogy.com/blog/?p=2449
^ http://www.beholdgenealogy.com/blog/?p=3181
^ https://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cb-Aktuell-Software-Ahnenblatt-1393889.html
^ https://www.chip.de/downloads/Ahnenblatt-letzte-Freeware_16394063.html
^ https://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cb-Downloads-Hobby-Freizeit-Ahnenblatt-Tipps-Anleitung-5976952.html
^ https://www.heise.de/download/specials/Unsere-Besten-3-3169020
^ https://www.pcwelt.de/downloads/Freizeit-Programm-Ahnenblatt-554287.html
^ https://winfuture.de/downloadvorschalt,3681.html
^ https://www.fotohits.de/software/detail/ahnenblatt/
^ https://www.pc-magazin.de/download/ahnenblatt-555947.html
^ https://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/datenverwaltung/artikel/ahnenblatt-48285/
^ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Ahnenblatt%22
^ František Hlaváček (2013). "Softwarový nástroj pro tvorbu a správu genealogických dat" [Diplomová práce 2013] (PDF) (in Czech). UNIVERZITA PARDUBICE, Fakulta elektrotechniky a informatiky, Katedra softwarových technologií. Retrieved 5 January 2020. {{cite magazine}}: Cite magazine requires |magazine= (help)
^ Tomáš Vogeltanz (2010). "Applications for genealogy support" [Bakalářská práce 2010] (PDF) (in Czech). UTB ve Zlíně, Fakulta aplikované informatiky. Retrieved 5 January 2020. {{cite magazine}}: Cite magazine requires |magazine= (help)
^ Amir Reza Asnafi, Selma Farmers (2018). "Introduction to academic genealogy" (PDF) (in Persian). Shahid Beheshti University. Retrieved 5 January 2020. {{cite magazine}}: Cite magazine requires |magazine= (help)
^ "Free Family Tree Software Review: Ahnenblatt". Genealogical Musings. 31 October 2014. Retrieved 6 January 2020.

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 _{(spin me / revolutions)} 14:49, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 21:17, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move to draft, pending addition of sources that meet the standards of AFC reviewers. BD2412 T 03:57, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with this. Most of the offered sources won’t do, but I haven’t systematically reviewed all 24, and the proponent doesn’t seem to understand the request to nominate the best. It could be that in choosing the best, he agreed that the best aren’t good enough? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:12, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Sandstein 06:55, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Visual Artists Ireland

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No apparent substantial sources. The ones in the article are either mere notices of press releases. DGG ( talk ) 23:10, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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DGG I've added a few more sources and information about their activities and will continue to do so. The organsiation is very important and longstanding in Ireland with a significant membership base and numerous publications. Hesperian Nguyen (talk)
Delete The coverage is all minor. The trivial and minor sources Hesperian Nguyen has added do not help notability. as they say on their talk page, VAI are their own publisher of most things, and newspapers don't write articles about them. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 03:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I've added many better citations tonight – I admit this article needs work – from major news sources. [41] a quick search in the Irish Times shows how frequently they are relied on and talked about on key issues affecting Irish artists. Further, I don't think it is fair for ThatMontrealIP to use casual conversation from my talk page out of context to support claims for deletion. I was asking for advice on a nuanced topic. Hesperian Nguyen (talk)

It is not out of context, you were talking about the article subject.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 04:47, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I maintain that it is out of context in what I was saying about the article subject which is that despite a clear history of publishing books, documents on policy, and their own newspapers, there remains a scarcity of articles solely on the organisation. Further I was saying that individual artists pages are not held up to the standards this page is being held to, and that I have experienced similar problems trying to improve gallery articles. I was asking for your help in navigating this dilemma. This context was entirely missed. I'd appreciate it if you don't misuse my words in an effort to undermine a reasonably proposed article about an organisation with a lot of credibility and influence. Hesperian Nguyen (talk)

Like you said, there remains a scarcity of articles solely on the organisation.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 14:10, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And as you said: "You should be carefully synthesizing statements form several discrete sources"... which is what I've done/am doing :-) Hesperian Nguyen (talk)

Keep, the page is now well sourced. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:33, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at WP:ORG it is clear this article qualifies. I will add some more details about the artist welfare work and the artists payments work as both constitute continued influence, impact, and coverage of the VAI. Hesperian Nguyen (talk)

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Keep, the body is real, active and known in arts and policy circles, if not with a strong public profile, and there is now enough referencing to support this.SeoR (talk) 09:42, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Passes general notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 19:42, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. MBisanz ^talk 22:59, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Zagnut

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Yes, it exists. Yes, I've heard of it. However, I am unable to find any independent reliable sources that have enough to say about it to support a reasonably detailed article. SummerPhD^v2.0 14:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Weak Keep/Redirect to List of products manufactured by The Hershey Company where it is already included and briefly described. There are plenty of results that come up with searching, but as mentioned by the nom, they are all pretty passing and mostly just describe what the bar is made out of. It seems to be a product that is mentioned a lot in sources, but without anything actually in-depth said about it that would allow for much of an article. About the only coverage I'm finding that really goes beyond mere mentions are a couple of articles reporting on an anecdote that John Smoltz recounted last year about his belief that Zagnut bars are unlucky. I'm fairly undecided about whether I think the article could be built up or not, but, as there is a good target for a Redirect if nothing else, deletion is not appropriate here. Rorshacma (talk) 17:52, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. A brief online search turned up a large multitude of sources on this subject, and searches on Google Books and sources like Newsbank/Lexis indicate there are many offline sources about this topic as well. Since this type of candy bar predates the Internet but multiple decades, it makes some sense that there isn't a lot of new coverage easily Google-able sources, but that shouldn't be taken as an indication it hasn't received coverage in sources. The sources are out there for anyone inclined to do some digging, and while the article as it stands right now it needs work, that in itself doesn't mean it's not notable or should be deleted. — Hunter Kahn 14:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Passes WP:GNG.-Splinemath (talk) 02:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Historical candy bar. Mentioned in Sweet Tooth: The Bittersweet History of Candy, page 244 and passing mention as part of Hershey's brands in Candy Bites: The Science of Sweets, Page 13. Numerous mentions in gBooks, mostly in passing, but giving the historical context for the once more ubiquitous candy bar. Passes WP:GNG and note that notability is not temporary. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 18:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete. While I gladly welcome coverage about sex work around the world, this specific type of promotional list belongs on maybe WikiTravel, if anything. Missvain (talk) 02:18, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of Brothels in Vienna

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wikipedia is not a directory and this looks a lot like advertising or a "best of" list i'd expect to see in a local magazine. There is only one notable entry here, so it's useless as a list. Praxidicae (talk) 14:28, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I understand your problem, but there are many well-known places on the list what will have articles soon. If you don't need a such extensive list then do we cut down the list part and mention only the most important places? There are 20-30 well-known places in Vienna. -- Csaszar.viktor (talk) 14:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Strong delete. Obvious fail of WP:NOTDIRECTORY and also WP:NOTADVERTISING. Any grounds for speedy deletion? Ajf773 (talk) 17:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Quick delete Entirely WP:OR, directory of non-notable businesses. Reywas92^Talk 20:18, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. Only one has an article, so NOTDIRECTORY applies. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:00, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Arguments for keeping the page revolve around the uniqueness of its existence in Tehran, but this is a) not a factor in determining notability on en-wiki and b) thrown into doubt by Pontificalibus source and the fact that we have a list of synagogues in Tehran. No policy-based arguments have been offered for keeping the article, but several commentators have pointed to the lack of sources, which is a policy-based reason for deletion. No prejudice to recreation if more sources can be provided. Yunshui ^雲 _水 09:23, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bagh Saba Synagogue

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One single source, lacks any notability as far as I can tell. Being a synogogue in Tehran is not exactly notable by itself. Theprussian (talk) 14:24, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Strong Keep. On the contrary, although perhaps being a synagogue in the continental USA would not be notable in and of itself; however, being a synagogue in Tehran most certainly is notable.

I certainly feel that myself and others from this community would greatly like to know of this wonderful institution's existence. We need to keep this here at Wikipedia. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Being a functioning synagogue in Tehran in the Islamic Republic of Iran is exactly what is notable. The sourcing is adequate but can be improved. Alansohn (talk) 17:47, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep for reasons discussed by above editors Postcard Cathy (talk) 17:57, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The fact that there is only one source in the article is a sign that more sources should be sought, but does not mean by itself that there are no more sources, which would cast doubt on notability. I agree with previous editors that this synagogue would probably be notable because of its location alone. Apart from other reasons it may be notable. Debresser (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The keep votes above assume an inherent notability for being a synagogue in Iran. However this source states there are more than forty synagogues in Tehran, so this reasoning appears flawed. Sources to satisfy WP:NBUILD and/or WP:ORG are needed.----Pontificalibus 13:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- So, this article is now clearly in breach of WP:Notability, this in my view is grounds for deletion.Theprussian (talk) 13:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Snow Keep. For the reasons discussed above by all editors, combined. 2604:2000:E010:1100:C813:882A:A64C:761D (talk) 00:02, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Fails general notability guidelines. I did my due diligence and failed to find reliable secondary sources in Hebrew and English, and didn't see much in Arabic (but that could use another review by an Arabic speaker) and did not see anything but passing mentions. I did learn (from a non-NPOV blog post in The Times of Israel) it was built in 1951, but, that's about it. Everything else is a self-published source or a passing mention on an event taking place there. Missvain (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: The discussion is somewhat balanced in a numbers sense, and the Keep !voters are *partially* (but specifically not entirely) making an IAR-esk reasoning, which has been disputed. Between them, further discussion seems warranted
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nosebagbear (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep--More than enough third-party sources to prove notability on the Persian language wikipedia article about the same synagogue: [42]. It is ironic that the English-speaking world is looking at to reducing the number of blue links on List_of_synagogues_in_Iran, while the equivalent page in the Persian wikipedia is willing to keep them.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:48, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete- Pls note each sister (different languages) Wikimedia site has it own guidelines and operates independent from each other. For English Wikipedia notability is based on the content is supported by significant coverage by independent, reliable sources where by the sources talk about the subject in length and in depth and not passing mentioned. Sources can be in any languages. The editors who voted keep have not yet present how the subject pass notability guidelines here and no sources independent reliable sources currently are found to support the content claimed at least in EN. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 12:23, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Since this is in Tehran, I would think a search for Farsi sourcing would be needed. On the other hand religious buildigns are not default notable, we need to find actual sourcign to justify having the article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:12, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. RL0919 (talk) 05:52, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Magic: The Gathering Totally Unauthorized

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Two books, the first Magic: The Gathering Totally Unauthorized is not notable but clearly exists, the second Advanced Magic: The Gathering Totally Unauthorized is utterly non notable or even really verifiable.

Even dividing the search term in two parts only gives 93 results (for the two books combined)[43], and only one author, Titus Chalk, mentions these books in any later books. One review at the time of publishing, and a near total lack of lasting impact. It looks as if the titles of the books are in reality both "Totally Unauthorized Magic: The Gathering" and they have the subtitles "Player's Guide" and "Advanced Player's Guide". Fram (talk) 14:16, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Correction These are two separate and distinct books.

Magic: The Gathering Totally Unauthorized is a basic guide for new players on how to play the game.
Advanced Magic: The Gathering Totally Unauthorized interviews a number of professional players about building a killer tournament deck, card by card. Very different books.Guinness323 (talk) 06:33, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- Not really that distinct, they are clearly marketed as being two parts of the same series, with the exact same layout and lettering of the cover. And they share the same problems, which is what matters most here. If it would turn out that one is notable and the other isn't, then one gets deleted and the other not. So far, neither is shown to be notable though. Fram (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Both - Neither book have any information in reliable sources beyond a single review in Arcane magazine which is not enough to pass the WP:GNG. Rorshacma (talk) 00:21, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. RL0919 (talk) 05:38, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shell Professor of Chemical Engineering

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One source and i don't see why something such as this needs a wikipedia article, the article fails to provide any information on this subject or convey its importance or relevance. Theprussian (talk) 14:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have also just noted that the only source this article is based on is inaccessible due to a paid subscription being neccesary. This is not good enough to confirm the existence of this entity.Theprussian (talk) 14:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is utterly irrelevant. You not being able to look at it certainly does not equate to it not being a valid source. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:59, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have as yet no opinion on keeping or deleting this article, but must point out that there is no requirement for sources to be available online or without charge. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:02, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or redirect to List of professorships at the University of Cambridge - I don't have experience in determining notability of these topics. I'll note that there are many other articles of this ilk linked from List of professorships at the University of Cambridge (yes, I know about WP:OTHERSTUFF). At the very least this should be redirected (to List of professorships at the University of Cambridge), not deleted per WP:ATD. ~Kvng (talk) 15:30, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Redirect to List of professorships at the University of Cambridge. There are thousands of colleges, many with hundreds of named professorships. Virtually none have coverage outside internal university fundraising documents and lists of faculty and this does not appear to be an exception. The source here isn't even about the professorship, it's a biography of the first holder, wtf...

Here's the quote from the bio: "Fox's great opportunity came in 1945 when Cambridge University accepted the offer from Shell of about £450,000 for a chemical engineering department. His appointment in 1946 as Shell professor caused a stir in the small world of chemical engineers, as it was then. The appointment was in many ways remarkable: Fox had published no research papers, nor did he ever; he was not at that time an established member of the chemical engineering profession." Reywas92^Talk 04:52, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. This seems to be somewhat famous as a standard example of cozy ties between academe and industry. See, e.g. [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52]. Those are all passing mentions rather than non-trivial coverage, but from many times and places. There is more in-depth coverage in [53] and [54]. I think that's enough to hint that this particular chair stands out from the thousands of others enough for an article. (Incidentally, "Shell Chair" seems to work significantly better as a search term than "Shell Professor" or "Shell Professorship".) —David Eppstein (talk) 06:20, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
David Eppstein, seems like a better place for this is Department_of_Chemical_Engineering_and_Biotechnology,_University_of_Cambridge#History then, which already lists the chairs anyway. These are more about the department or the concept of corporate sponsorship than the position itself, and I don't think a lecture presented by a Shell professor himself counts as independent coverage. Reywas92^Talk 20:58, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
When considering whether a source is independent, you have to consider what it is being used to source. I think a lecture presented by someone who held the title some forty years later, when used as a source for the initial founding of the title, is sufficiently independent of those founding events. Also, it is false that the department web page lists the holders of this chair. It lists the department chairs, which haven't been the same thing as the Shell chairs for over 20 years. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:01, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, I significantly expanded the article based on these sources. The version as nominated and as viewed by the previous commenters was significantly sparser and only had an in-passing source, now removed. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:23, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per David Eppstein. XOR'easter (talk) 17:38, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of professorships at the University of Cambridge. As said above there are countless endowed Chairs many of which have been held by a string of noteworthy academics. In this instance, the Chair doesn't appear to have yielded any Nobels thus far, though i'm not doubting the calibre of its holders, I just feel this opens the door to many somewhat superfluous similar articles. Uhooep (talk) 04:04, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Named chairs have to have Nobel prize winners to become notable? Are they giving Nobel prizes in engineering nowadays? Can you point to where in Wikipedia's notability policies or guidelines this opinion is based? —David Eppstein (talk) 04:42, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Keep given the history of the Chair. Uhooep (talk) 06:54, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep. Established chairs at Oxbridge are generally regarded as notable. And 1945 is an early foundation date for a chair of chemical engineering. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:58, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: sufficient sourcing for a stand-alone article. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:07, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was soft delete. Deleting this one, the sources surely don't help the subject pass GNG. However, WP:REFUND applies if anyone can find the right "type" of sources. Thanks everyone for contributing and assuming good faith! Missvain (talk) 15:54, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Frysk Puzelwurdboek

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I can only find one, one-paragraph review of this book (see here). b uidhe 13:55, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Page creator added two sources. The first source has only two sentences about the subject:
Yn 1992 is it Frysk Puzelwurdboek fan Douwe vander Meulen ferskynd. Dat wurdboek is út soarte ornearre foar puzelders, martrochdat it in soad synonimen jout en ek wurden oarderet neffens rubriken lyk-as fartugen, klean en lichemsdielen is it Puzelwurdboek in tige wolkommeoanfolling op ’e hânwurdboeken fan ’e FA

The other source also only has two sentences:

In 1992 is het Frysk Puzelwurdboek van Douwe van der Meulen versche-nen. Dat woordenboek is uiteraard bedoeld voor puzzelaars, maar door-dat het veel synoniemen geeft en ook woorden ordent volgens rubrie-ken als vaartuigen, kleding en lichaamsdelen, is het Puzelwurdboek een wel-kome aanvulling op de handwoordenboeken van de FA.

These are just passing mentions, not significant coverage in my opinion. b uidhe 07:17, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- Actually, they mean exactly the same thing, the first in Frisian and the second in Dutch. b uidhe 07:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep more references have been made, based on the reliable source coverage. Meets WP:GNG. Kees Swart (talk) 07:39, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- All of the significant coverage combined makes three short paragraphs from two sources. Not enough for GNG imo. b uidhe 07:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Two more references/sources are added.Kees Swart (talk) 06:30, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Unless I'm missing something, this looks like passing mention in a reliable source and this is a self-published website (not RS). b uidhe 06:37, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Other sources exist, specifically the Netherlands Wikipedia article has fours sources available to verify the article. scope_creep^Talk 12:35, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, if you check you would see that the four sources are the same ones cited in this article. b uidhe 13:49, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Regrettably. Wikipedia is not a library catalogue, and this book does note meet GNG. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Sandstein 06:55, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ashley Maynard-Brewer

AfDs for this article:

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Has not played in a fully professional match between two fully professional clubs. Swansea City U21s is not a fully pro team. Simione001 (talk) 11:30, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment - this was only recently nominated for AfD and allowed to be moved to draft to be improved. I suggest some good faith is needed here to allow the article to be improved, rather than multiple nominations. Bookscale (talk) 11:50, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Its been recreated without improvements so should be Draftify again. Simione001 (talk) 13:06, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should not be draftified, because there are always people who wander around draft space and "reactivate" articles that seem ok. (Like this one.) It also doesn't need improvement in itself, we would rather be waiting for the guy's career to take an upturn. Instead it should be userfied. Geschichte (talk) 19:37, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Either 'delete as non-notable or move to draft as per previous AFD outcome. Giant Snowman 12:43, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per nom. --BlameRuiner (talk) 15:26, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm happy for it to be userfied to avoid multiple recreations until the article is ready. Bookscale (talk) 08:38, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Sandstein 12:11, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Isi & Ossi

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needs to be cited properly, as the articles is not cited as per wp:gng and wp:rs Shubhi89 (talk) 13:50, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Additional references, and a cast and production section added. - Thornstrom (talk) 03:38, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep Its claim to notability is that it's among the the first thre Netflix Original Films from Germany, and it's covered by some German news outlets, the best I could find was from Stuttgarter Nachrichten.[55] However, I don't know if this would fall under "local news" and is too much in the "press release" territory, therefore my "weak" !vote. – sgeureka ^t•c 08:43, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Meets GNG. I was able to dig up [56] [57] [58] [59]. Notable film. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 17:19, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Sandstein 12:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

John Karel

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tried finding some coverage and foud that clearly fails wp:gng Shubhi89 (talk) 13:46, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete halls of fame have reached absurd levels. Membership in one is no longer worth what it used to be.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:43, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Parks was a Municipal department head who's only possible claim to notability was being inducted into a Hall of Fame that doesn't confer notability in the slightest. Best, GPL93 (talk) 18:56, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Passes general notability guidelines. Sources include:

I will also drop these on the talk page of the article. Missvain (talk) 20:16, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Fails WP:BIO. The articles listed above discuss Tower Grove Park in detail, not John Karel. [60] has a bit more detail about him but it's a press release.----Pontificalibus 13:47, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Sources presented above are all local to the subject, which fails WP:AUD. Absent a delete close, I wouldn't object to a very selective merge to Tower Grove Park. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:41, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete and redirect to Institute of Physics#Awards. Sandstein 06:57, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lawrence Bragg Medal and Prize

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Minor non-notable award. Of the current version's 19 sources, most are not independent, being either from the Institute of Physics own website or press releases from institutions of awardees. Solely references 3, 11, 13, 17, and 18 are somewhat independent, but all are only in-passing mentions (and most are mentions of the award in obituaries of former awardees). Note that the IoP has a huge number of awards (43 if I counted correctly), with no less than 5 in the category "education", of which this is only one. No evidence that this meets WP:GNG, hence: Delete. Randykitty (talk) 13:10, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete, unenthusiastically. Not the kind of article I would normally hasten to prune, but the sourcing here really isn't great, and mostly consists of institutional publications being pleased about faculty achievements. The IoP prizes are notable and important in the aggregate, but for most of the individual prizes (excluding the Dirac medal and a couple of others) I think we would struggle to establish sufficient standalone coverage. - On a side note, Institute of Physics now has three dozen circular redirects, which probably ought to be straightened out. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 22:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect - I'm the creator of this article, but after careful searching online those are the best references I could find, so I'm happy to concede this particular award is not sufficiently notable for it's own article. On a side note, which would also handle the various circular redirects on the main Insitute of Physics article too, I propose the IOP awards overall have their own spin-off article. This would also stop the main article getting too long. And just keep the very limited number of notable awards with their separate pages too. Kj cheetham (talk) 12:21, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added another couple of refs in any case, but they aren't really significant. Kj cheetham (talk) 19:23, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. This very much appears to be an individual that roughly falls into a grey area in certain notability guidelines, given that he's clearly an important part of a highly notable project, and has received some coverage in reliable sources only in that context, while also receiving some moderately significant coverage (primarily in obituary form) in other sources of less certain reliability. Many calls for improvement have been made, though actual improvement from sources has so far been somewhat limited. This is certainly an individual that could be notable under our guidelines, but there is significant opinion in this discussion that as it stands it may fail the general notability guideline, and more evidence is needed to show he passes it. Reliably-sourced improvement is likely required if this article is to stay around long term, but there is not a consensus to delete it in this discussion. ~ mazca ^talk 17:16, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph Karr O’Connor

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Non notable computer scientist who does not satisfy WP:GNG & WP:ANYBIO. Celestina007 (talk) 13:02, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I don't know if this is the right place to do this, but I think I've demonstrated "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field."

I'm not sure how to best demonstrate this in a way that will satisfy wikipedia, but certainly on Twitter there has been a global acknowledgement of his contribution. Lots of folks have testified about his contribution to their work in the last week on Twitter @AccessibleJoe - he had a big impact on a sector of the accessibility community for sure. I can't link to it here because Twitter seems to be blacklisted by Wikipedia.

I've pulled from several independent sources so the ""Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it. For example, advertising, press releases, autobiographies, and the subject's website are not considered independent.[4]" doesn't seem to apply either. I'm not sure what is missing. I've reviewed the links you sent and do not see what is missing. Mgifford (talk) 15:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and improve being a major contributor to WordPress's accessibility seems like a biggish deal. Worth trying to find more secondary sources that point to his achievements and wrangling the article more into a wiki-style format.Jessamyn (talk) 00:00, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Joseph was a very notable figure in web accessibility for over a decade. His effect and reputation affected a generation of developers. Digital accessibility as a whole is a field that hasn't gotten as much attention relative to its contribution to the development of technology, and O'Connor was influential in that community. There are existing Wikipedia pages for other people who similarly participated in W3C or web standards who don't seem to meet the criteria for WP:ANYBIO. Perhaps rather than deletion, we could work a bit more on the article to make the case for inclusion? Shepazu (talk) 02:03, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm all up for improving this piece.. I am uncomfortable with it still being marked under Articles for deletion. I've added references from IMDB, from the official journal from the California State University, Northridge as well as an acknowledgement from a book. Certainly it can be improved to be closer to the Wikipedia guidelines, but there are a lot of references already to indicate that this is someone who contributed. And yes, for folks outside of the web industry, contributing to WordPress's accessibility is a big deal. It affects 30% of the entire web. Celestina007 can you look at this again? Mgifford (talk) 04:49, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete as it stands. There appears to be a clear conflict of interest here, and some apparent advertising intent. Deb (talk) 10:32, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry Deb advertising for what? I'm a bit confused here. Also unsure where there is a conflict of interest. Mgifford (talk) 14:11, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - You keep calling him "Joseph", which people don't normally do with someone they don't know. If you were closely connected with him, that would be a COI. Also, you've included two external links in the text, which people generally do for advertising purposes - for example, referring readers to an Amazon page where they can buy one of his books or to a site where they can sign up to a conference. Deb (talk) 14:14, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - I call lots of people by their first name. That said, I've already said I probably met him once. In no way would I say I was closely connected with him. I am happy to remove the external links. I was just trying to add references in a different way. I do not know that anyone will financially benefit from any of the links. I certainly didn't think it was a big deal to link them one way or another. I will change it though if it makes a difference. Mgifford (talk) 02:01, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- You've offered zero evidence of conflict of interest; and the CoI you allege is far from "clear". Do you have any evidence, or would you like to retract the allegation? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:51, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — Mgifford What Deb is saying & what I’m voicing very loudly is that your article is quite promotional & that you may have a possible conflict of interest with the subject of your article.Celestina007 (talk) 01:36, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, what is it promoting? It may be badly written, but I do not understand what it is a promotion of? I do not have a COI. I did meet him once (I think), but am pretty confident that this is not sufficient to block me editing the article. I am stubborn, but that again isn't a reason to block participation. Mgifford (talk) 01:49, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The subject fails WP:GNG. A Google search of the subject doesn't show him being discussed in reliable sources. None of the sources in the article are reliable. Versace1608 ^{Wanna Talk?} 01:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete- Not notable. Very poor sourcing. IMDb and various blogs (including wordpress) are not reliable sources. Rusf10 (talk) 04:09, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- WordPress's own blog is a valid source for the voice of WordPress; and permissible under Wikipedia policies. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:47, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - while it may be permissible to use some content from wordpress as a source, it is still a primary source. We need multiple secondary (not primary) sources to establish notability. Wordpress cannot be used to establish notability. Rusf10 (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - Since when was a company, writing about one of its former employees, in an official company organ, not valid for establishing notability? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:07, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - Since always. Otherwise every time a company hires someone and issues an official press release, that person would gain auto-notability. We need sources from outside the company where the person used to work.--Rusf10 (talk) 22:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and improve Since Wordpress is 35% of the web https://kinsta.com/wordpress-market-share/ his focus on getting accessible templates definitely improved the web. As well, a podcast is roughly equivalent to a newspaper column and appearing in as many as he did as well as running them? Keep this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.67.77.241 (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment — It should be noted by the closing administrator & all fellow editors that the IP address above has its first edit as the “Keep & Improve” !vote and as of this comment hasn’t contributed anything outside this. Preety strange. sock puppetry at work here?Celestina007 (talk) 18:16, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - ...or Dynamic IP address allocation. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:43, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm an Accessibility Contributor to WordPress: this request for deletion was pointed out during our last week meeting and I'm writing because I'm probably the only one in the group with some knowledge of Wikipedia policies.

The problem with this request for deletion is twofold: there is a problem of possible conflict of interest and a problem with the content of the article.

- Possible conflict ot interest

I started contributing to WordPress a couple of years ago and I didn't know about Joseph Karr O’Connor himself before his death, since he left the group in 2016. As such, my point of view is not biased by having known him personally.

Mgifford is a Drupal Core Accessibility Maintainer; he has a profile on WordPress website, but he doesn't contribute to WordPress. As such, I don't think there's a conflict of interest because WordPress and Drupal are independent projects. Instead, the fact that Joseph Karr O’Connor contributions to web accessibility are recognized outside the WordPress community may be an indication that "The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field."

Also, when talking about WordPress, there is a difference between WordPress and WordPress.com: the latter is a blogging/hosting platform managed by Automattic Inc., the former is an open source project/software (naming can be really confusing, if you don't know the difference). Joseph Karr O’Connor was a contributor to WordPress open source project (as I am), not a former employee of WordPress.com. I know Wikipedia doesn't consider commercial promotion as the only form of promotion, but I don't think there's any form of promotion.

If there's a conflict of interest, it's about web accessibility (Mgifford also added the accessibility section to the WordPress article), but in this case I would like contributors that claim about a possible conflict of interest to better explain that, as requested by Mgifford.

- Article content

Here there are two problems.

Web accessibility experts are widely recognized as such inside the field, but work is generally done in groups and personal contributions are very difficult to register: as such, apart from personal blogs and social medias, it's very difficult to find sources to support the relevance of a single person. Also, Joseph Karr O’Connor was an expert on cognitive and learning disabilities, which is an even more specialized field inside web accessibility. Making a quick search, the only independent, but solid source I was able to find is the draft of this document on the World Wide Web Consortium website, where he is indicated as an "Invited Expert". I would say that this might be a good starting point and that with time it'll be possible to find more independent sources about him.
The article was first written a few days after Joseph Karr O’Connor's death, probably in the attept to honour his memory and his contributions to web accessibility in general and WordPress accessibility in particular. There have been some improvements since, they are probably not sufficient at the moment, but consider that this article is the work of a single person. I'd be happy to help with rewriting this article, so that it meets Wikipedia standards, but there's very little time left before the deletion will take place (if it takes place) and I can't do that in the next few hours.

In the end, I think that the article can stay on Wikipedia after some cleanup and adding more sources. I would suggest not to delete this article in the first place, but I explained at the beginning that I am involved in the same project Joseph Karr O’Connor was involved in and I don't want this to be considered as a potential conflict of interest. — Ryokuhi (talk) 11:13, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I did try to do some rewrites on the article when this AfD first came in. I did not know the subject so those edits should be okay. Would love to help with a rewrite with more sources, I do think the subject is noteworthy (and I voted keep above) Jessamyn (talk) 03:16, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I would like to see some further input here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tone 20:03, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Still on team Keep and Improve I feel like the criteria this article could meet is

The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors. (Joe is cited by all WordPress accessibility people)
The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique. (Joe was a pioneer in accessible themes for WordPress)

I feel like the problem we're getting into is whether "WordPress accessibility" is a field in and of itself or "important" enough to merit independent acknowledgement of the people who work within it. Secondary issue is that the sources for this sort of accomplishment are largely online and not, say, in major news media or print media. My argument is that they should be and this article has gotten significant enough rewrites that claims of promotion or conflict of interest are no longer relevant (fwiw, I didn't know Joe until helping with the article rewrite, in case that's relevant to my opinions here) Jessamyn (talk) 20:45, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and improve I made revisions to help clarify the significance of the activities and accomplishments that were cited in the article when considering the subject’s notability. I knew the subject of the article, as did many involved in disability inclusion and technology accessibility. I vote to keep and improve the article so that others have the opportunity to further document his vital role in advancing accessibility. Glacialgrandeur
Comment — It should be noted that the account above Glacialgrandeur was merely created three hours ago(from the time I am making this comment) & came directly to this AFD to !vote a keep. Quite a precocious talent if you ask me.Celestina007 (talk) 21:29, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closing admin — An SPI has been opened here — Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mgifford. Celestina007 (talk) 00:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep - He seems to be a notable part of a major project- wordpress may not be popular with netizens, but the normie blogger types still use it by the millions. Still, the keep is weak and there's not a lot of coverage for him.Bahb the Illuminated (talk) 21:11, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. RL0919 (talk) 13:30, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vandebo

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SPA/COI article, no meaningful coverage in any language. Praxidicae (talk) 12:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - Does not pass general notability guidelines. Missvain (talk) 20:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Significant opposition to the article certainly exists, frequently citing WP:TOOSOON which, while an essay, elaborates on many valid points about notability guidelines and the policy against unverifiable speculation. But as trivial as the topic may be considered by many, the coverage in reliable sources has been anything but trivial, and those advocating to keep the article have pointed to the sheer volume of detailed information about this specific event. There's a lot of validity to the complaints about the name of the article; good points have been made that Megxit is something of a tabloid creation, but it's clearly being heavily used, though whether it quite meets the "commonly recognizable name" bar of WP:COMMONNAME certainly can be argued either way. Further discussions can potentially be held as to moving it to a less tabloidy title, but even among those advocating a rename in this discussion, there is no particular consensus at all as to what that title might be. Ultimately, there is an increasing consensus, particularly among later participants as the event has developed, that there is sufficient detailed reliable-source coverage to maintain a separate article on this event. ~ mazca ^talk 12:36, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Megxit

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This is a moment in the lives of two people. One decision. It does not deserve a stand-alone article in an encyclopedia. There is no reason to treat it any differently than, say, Camillagate. Surtsicna (talk) 12:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's also something unprecedented in the history of the royal family for senior royals to step down without discussing with the Queen first. This will continue to get coverage and "Megxit" like Brexit will become a well known term. Even if we don't have a article under this title and move it to "Resignation of Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex and Meghan, Duchess of Sussex" it's clearly something notable. And no doubt this will be getting thousands of searches and people looking for information..♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

An heir apparent likening himself to a tampon was also quite unprecedented and everyone wanted to know about it but people have moved on. Now it is a footnote in his biography. This is no different. We should stop seeing encyclopedic material where there is none. Surtsicna (talk) 13:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're very much a royalist though, admit it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But then nobody would call me a communist anymore. I quite enjoy the variety. Surtsicna (talk) 14:58, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex#Marriage and fatherhood. If more develops, it may be fruitful to create a new section under that titled something like "Resignation from royal duties". BD2412 T 13:29, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As suspected this has continued to get coverage and use of the term. It got 6000 views yesterday, people are looking for it. Eventually I'm certain it will have enough for a full length article as it plays out.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:TOOSOON – Wait until the term gets traction. Can be mentioned briefly in the main biographies of both protagonists, though. — JFG ^talk 13:59, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:TOOSOON Theprussian (talk) 14:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex#Marriage and fatherhood per WP:TOOSOON. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 15:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Notice that we don't have a Retirement of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh article? Honestly, this isn't a world changing event. GoodDay (talk) 16:09, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - per WP:TOOSOON - Just mention the term on their respective articles. Not to mention that this is not important enough to have a standalone article. Especially since their roles in the future are not clarified, and technically they have "not" resigned; they are just reducing their responsibilities. Also, Prince Philip and Prince Andrew have completely stopped working on behalf of their family, but we don't have articles about their so-called retirement; and we shouldn't. Keivan.f^Talk 17:24, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Since a week ago, the term "Megxit" has gone viral and now all news broadcasters are covering the topic. With the existence of reliable sources, the article can definitely stay. Keivan.f^Talk 01:07, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Move to draft is the only logical solution here. It is a notable event (hence why readers came here looking for this article) obviously but still too soon to write a proper, informative article about it. ⌚️ (talk) 20:20, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Which readers are you talking about? Surtsicna (talk) 20:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1800 views yesterday.♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- - All these!

in a few hours the tool will show how many. ⌚️ (talk) 22:04, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note that a "draft" can just as easily be written as a section of the proposed redirect target, and then broken out into a new article if it reaches sufficient independent notability. BD2412 T 02:28, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Redirect to a new section of their articles.Sir Magnus (talk) 21:30, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep It's received significant coverage, and the term is mainstream and widely-used. Sir Magnus (talk) 11:03, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per WP:TOOSOON - Let's address in section on their Wiki pages, and then a separate article can be created if there's sufficient notability established over time to warrant this subject having its own separate page. Until that time, there's no reason to even request a Merge since there's all of one sentence of material on the page... Shelbystripes (talk) 04:42, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but rename. This event represents the formation of a new royal "brand" (Sussex Royal). There will be a great deal of new material as things develop, and it would be better to have it in one place rather than duplicating it at Meghan, Duchess of Sussex and Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex. Netwalker3 (talk) 23:08, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If and when the "Sussex Royal" brand receives WP:SIGCOV, then indeed that would be an appropriate article to incorporate its genesis and the "Megxit" moniker, instead of duplicating such information in the articles of both protagonists. — JFG ^talk 17:39, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sense Check. A couple of points here:

1. This can't be a full delete because the term "Megxit" is now appearing in the headline, and body, of SIGCOV pieces by the highest-grade RS (e.g. WP:RS/Ps), such as 'The Telegraph', 'NBC News', 'The Guardian' - I could list at least 10 more full SIGCOVs with the term; therefore the term "Megxit" will always be a valid Redirect to Prince Harry (and never a delete).

2. The UK and International high-quality RS on this term (and affair), is growing exponentially by the hour, however, Harry's main article says little of it. Therefore, redirecting what is one of the biggest trending stories globally (and therefore worthy of chronicling in some form), to an article that does not yet mention the term, is not yet appropriate.

3. There is a 50:50 chance that this article will always exist outside of the main Harry/Megan articles because there is so much going on, and commentary being written from the affair by the highest quality-RS, and its Megxit's long-term implications for the UK monarchy (and a related racial aspect), and would only clog-up Harry's BLP article.

Therefore, we should close this as a no consensus and let things settle for a month to see how big this affair gets. After then, it will either be a Redirect or Merge into Harry (and/or Megan), depending on how much material from this affair is in their main BLPs; OR, a useful standalone WP article. Britishfinance (talk) 12:46, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Even Trump is commenting with: "Trump on 'Megxit': 'I don't think this should be happening to' the queen", via another WP:RS/P, USA Today. Britishfinance (talk) 13:38, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I wish you hadn't said that, I remember ASAP Rocky... Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:46, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good point :) Note to self for future ref. Britishfinance (talk) 12:50, 12 January 2020 (UTC) [reply]

Redirect for now, but would support a delete too. I don't know about anyone else, but I've been having sleepless nights worrying about how these multi-millionaires will be able to cope in the real world. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 15:40, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Meghan, Duchess of Sussex#Public role for now. I've taken a few days to think about it, and while this clearly is a major news story, there's just not that much to say about it yet other than various reactions and speculation. An article can always be recreated in future (hopefully with a better, more encyclopaedic title, once the media settle on one) but I don't think there's enough content to justify a spin-off article at this time. Robofish (talk) 20:58, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(I would say that, since the term 'Megxit' clearly refers to Meghan, it should logically redirect to her article rather than Harry's.) Robofish (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Britishfinance (talk) 01:28, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I've no strong feelings about whether this event is notable enough for a standlaone article, but if it were kept I think Resignation of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex would be a more encyclopaedic title. Ham II (talk) 11:41, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We have over 10 WP:RS/Ps with Megxit in the title discussing Megxit in the body; we also have Brexit as a standalone article. Britishfinance (talk) 12:46, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article Brexit was titled United Kingdom withdrawal from the European Union for the first 10 months of its existence, and the first request to move it to 'Brexit' closed with no consensus, so it took some time for that term to be considered encyclopaedic. Looking quickly at the Guardian's website, the most prominent articles don't call this development 'Megxit', but a search for 'Megxit' does also produce several results. I'm convinced that 'Megxit' is still slang at the moment (as 'Brexit' was once considered to be), but while I think the way to determine the real WP:COMMONNAME would be to weigh the RSs which discuss this event but don't call it 'Megxit' against the ones which do, I've no inclination to do something so tedious which would almost immediately become dated. Ham II (talk) 13:45, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Per the "background" section of the article, some RS are clarifying that they have not "resigned" from the royal family (for reasons explained), and thus "Resignation of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex" is not necessarily appropriate at this stage. Britishfinance (talk) 21:37, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Spanish Wikipedia has a larger article on Megxit which might be useful for material (not that we need more sources as we are already heavy in the highest quality WP:RS/Ps, with Megxit in the title and body as WP:SIGCOV). Britishfinance (talk) 12:40, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Give it a few weeks and see per user:Britishfinance. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:10, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per (part of) nom('s rationale), Britishfinance, and others. Oppose rename, per Amakuru and Arbil44 below, and also oppose merge with future Sussex Royal Foundation, per part of Drmies's rationale below, as this is much broader than the pair's charitable foundation. Lukewarm to a future merge into one or more articles, assuming one or more suitable merger targets present themselves. It's a very real current event, which will have historical significance given the emergency meeting, dubbed the Sandringham Summit, called by The Queen. It might be too soon, but in this case, that's hardly sufficient a reason to outright delete. ~~I'd be mildly supportive of draftification/userification to add sourcing, but~~ It's an event that ultimately should have an article and we need to respect attribution and the contributors of this article against this article being blown up and re-done weeks later by someone else. --Doug Mehus T·C 18:22, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And note that the creator and a major editor of this article is one of the most proficient FA/GA rated editors on WP. At the moment, when you google "Megxit", you get a Spanish-WP "Megxit" article (per above), with NPOV tags, and not what en-WP has to offer because one of the highest trending news stories globally ... is stuck at en-AfD? Britishfinance (talk) 18:49, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Britishfinance, Great point! That actually also effectively nullifies the "redirect" arguments, too, no, since there is, potentially, no clear redirect target (i.e., the case could be made for redirecting to Meghan, to Harry, or to Spanish Wikipedia). Doug Mehus T·C 18:50, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Britishfinance Not disputing what you said about the Spanish Wikipedia widget as Google Personalized Search is likely at play here, but what I see when searching, from a logged in Google Canada web search, is no Wikipedia widget whatsoever. Using a StartPage, which is essentially an anonymous Google web search overlay, search, I also see nothing. Using DuckDuckGo, I see Megxit from English Wikipedia. Doug Mehus T·C 18:57, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dmehus, just seen that in Europe (my patch), Google has taken the Spanish-Megxit article off there the main search listings (probably given tagging). Parts of it read like a tabloid article in my view. Britishfinance (talk) 19:03, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep with possible rename. Very real current event as agreed with others. TheKaphox T 21:41, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Per my comments above, and now that Dr. Blofeld (one of the most experienced FA-GA rated editors in WP) and I have over 20 refs from WP:RS/Ps using "Megxit" in their title and body to describe this event it is never going to be a delete. In addition, the RS also show that it is not an "abdication" nor (at least currently) a "resignation". Other social media terms like "Sussexit" made much less appearance in WP:RS/P (almost none); however the term "step-back" gets some use (although at a much lower lever). Until we know how this highly notanle "current news event" develops (e.g. maybe they will end up fully and formally resigning), I think "Megxit" is the title for now. We can always revisit any case for a merge in a few weeks/months time. Britishfinance (talk) 22:46, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but consider a title change. A topic of lasting significance. It's certainly not common for senior members of the British royal family to "step back", and this is generating significant, ongoing coverage AusLondonder (talk) 10:53, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, wait for the dust to settle, then consider whether a merger would be a good option. For all we know the two may well be planning further ventures resulting in continued impact/significance down the line. Or perhaps the whole thing may fizzle down, though that appears less likely. We don't know for sure yet, but keeping the content in a separate article for now aids readers compared to splitting and merging the content here to the two BLPs, which would be messy. feminist (talk) 11:21, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Feminist, Well said, I'm not opposed to a future merger or dual merge with the respective Harry and Meghan articles, which, on first glance, seem to be unduly flattering. There was no mention of Harry's youthful playboy escapades in Calgary and Las Vegas, for example, nor really any previous controversies. But, I don't see how either a "delete" or "redirect" are helpful here. Doug Mehus T·C 14:09, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 17:50, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, this is a significant and current event however I agree with other users that a rename may be appropriate Davethorp (talk) 19:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This might not be quite as big of an event in the royal family as Edward VIII abdication crisis, but it is huge. Just about every news outlet has at least one story about it if not more[61]. The event will very likely have a lasting impact, and as well will likely be talked about for years, even decades to come. There's been a suggestion this might be merged "into Harry (and/or Megan)", which highlights a problem. This isn't just Harry stepping back from his duties; it's Megan too. So where do you merge it to? One? Both? I say neither. It's a major event in and of its own accord, and needs a stand alone article. As to the title, I find "Megxit" rather less than appealing, and even offensive potentially. But, on Google it tracks with 44 million+ hits [62]. Interestingly, Google calls it "Resignation of Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex and Meghan, Duchess of Sussex" [63], and the Wikipedia link....goes to Megxit. That title would be a mouthful and is unlikely to become the title. I'm open to suggestions on an alternate title, but I think we have to go with what the public is calling it, regardless of our feelings of its problematic nature. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:53, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Agree with much of the above and the issues of where to redirect/merge (this is really about both of them). The article had "Resignation of Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex and Meghan, Duchess of Sussex" as an earlier bolded term in the lede (which google have probably picked up on), however, as several RS have pointed out, it is not (as yet) a "resignation". It was a fair nom at the outset, however, in the past few days it has become a huge story and every WP:RS/P, from every corner of the globe, is covering "Megxit". The Times, the holy grail of newspaper RS/P, has just run an article about whether it could be a "Hard Megxit" or a "Soft Megxit"? Britishfinance (talk) 19:59, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hammersoft and Britishfinance, Hammersoft, I agree with what you said as well, and I, too, think it's appropriately named as "Megxit." Some Royal watchers and, indeed, the Royal family, may not like our naming convention for this article, but I think it checks all the boxes in terms of concision and what it is being commonly referred to. I do think a couple paragraphs on this is worthy of inclusion in the Harry & Meghan articles, potentially even The Queen as well, with "main article" section hatnotes to Megxit. To be clear, I am very much a supporter of the monarchy, the Commonwealth, and especially The Queen, whom I adore and for whom I have great respect and admiration; however, I have to set aside those feelings. Megxit is the perfect titling of the article; if, in the future, more, different controversies ensue and Megzilla becomes the new common name to refer to Meghan and the myriad future controversies, then we can re-consider renaming such a hypothetical future, multi-issue article.

Britishfinance, I'm surprised to hear you say The Times is the "holy grail" of newspaper reliable sources. I'd have thought you'd have said The Daily Telegraph, as I've heard that's The Queen's preferred daily broadsheet newspaper. Though, I don't disagree with you—I like both papers, and I think The Independent is very good, too. Doug Mehus T·C 20:15, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dmehus, The Telegraph is an RS/P but is a right-leaning royalist slant (the ying/yang to The Guardian (another RS/P) left-leaning anti-royalist slant). The Times is the one in the centre (on all subjects) and the most balanced of them all, imho. If you had to pick one UK newspaper RS/P, I think it would be The Times? thank. Britishfinance (talk) 20:21, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Britishfinance, Ah, yeah, that makes sense, and thanks for confirming that The Telegraph does have more of a royalist/monarchist tint (with The Guardian being roughly opposite). I know The Daily Mail isn't as well regarded, but I do enjoy their "ThisIsMoney.co.uk" personal finance news source, which I find to be a great source of coverage on UK banks and building societies and their branch closures (personal fascination). Doug Mehus T·C 20:26, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – Historically significant and notable. Perhaps a rename. But, definitely a "keep". Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:45, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Already notable. Ramification for years. Plus, it will trigger editors who don't like this kind of stuff. Win win all around. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 21:12, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rename "Megxit" is silly. This'd be media's ploy to involve Meghan Markle as having some negative responsibility on all this happening. Set it as a redirect, perhaps, but the article name should be changed to something more objective that does not involve jargon. Tytrox (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Tytrox, we have Brexit or Wexit/Wexit Canada. It's entirely neutral. Doug Mehus T·C 23:47, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dmehus thanks for pointing that out. TBH I wasn't aware that those articles existed (have never bothered to look for them), but I otherwise stick to my opinion (on general terms) that using jargon as the article title shouldn't be practiced. Tytrox (talk) 00:01, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Tytrox, Sorry, I wasn't meant to be patronizing, and hope no offence was taken. In hindsight, I need not have mentioned it; my point was that I do think Megxit is a perfectly neutral title. Often we tend to perceive things as being slanted in a way that is opposite to our own. Some people, viewing her as behaving in a diva-ish manner, for example, might think Megxit is unduly flattering to Meghan Markle (by its more subtle, neutral tone, and by naming the event after her). As I say, I don't hold that view and think that Megxit is neutral. Doug Mehus T·C 00:05, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dmehus All good mate. I didn't view it that way, so no offence taken. I was just giving an observation that I genuinely didn't know those articles existed. The whole thing you point out about how people view her is a matter of subjectivity, whether it's in good or bad light. I just feel the jargon use in the title somewhat betrays the nature of Wikipedia. I'll also clarify that while I'm not entirely dismissing the notability of it, I just think we can surely come up with a more meaningful title. Tytrox (talk) 00:40, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, but rename. Event is definitely notable, but I don't think "Megxit" is the WP:COMMONNAME (this is not like "Brexit"), and it's a "neologism" anyhow (it's nothing more than a tabloid creation, and we should not be following their lead). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
IJBall, Interesting...I've got to read up on the difference between a "neologism" and a "portmanteau," which is how the article describes it. Can it be both a neologism and a portmanteau? Doug Mehus T·C 01:02, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. It's inaccurate to characterize the word "Megxit" as exclusively a tabloid-created word. Especially if the idea is to make it seem like an illegitimate phenomenon. It was the lowest of low-hanging fruit and people were saying it on Twitter pretty much immediately after the first announcement. (inb4 "Twitter isn't a Reliable Source." That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that "it was made up by tabloids specifically to direct this at Meghan Markle" is inaccurate and not a good argument against the article's name.) lethargilistic (talk) 02:43, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep with possible name change. WikiIndustrialComplex (talk) 08:09, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I'm here because I was looking on the homepage for this article and to my surprise, it wasn't there. I live in New Zealand, which is part of the Commonwealth, but as far away from Britain as you can get. The Australian bushfires are obviously a big thing in this part of the world and despite that being much closer (the sun is often obscured from the smoke, although we are some 2000 km away from the fires; still a lot closer than Europe), Megxit has been the lead item on the main news most evenings since this has happened. So yes, it would appear to be a most notable event, not just a wee bit notable. I don't really care what the article title is going to be and frankly, that should not be the topic of an AfD discussion in the first instance. It is something that can be sorted through the appropriate process. Schwede 66 10:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is usually superb with current affairs, so much that I had expected to see Megxit already created and to see it on the main page too. The "Megxit" title does sound tabloidy but the fact even the most reputable publications are calling it Megxit now, I don't think we can ignore that. They're even making Megxit mugs now LOL. 12,000 views yesterday, interest in this has doubled.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:18, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Blofeld, Doubled on Wikipedia. Interest and use of the Megxit term has ballooned by an unknown factor, probably of astronomical size. ;) Doug Mehus T·C 15:14, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimately their future ex-Royal activity will be under the Sussex Royal Foundation, which will resolve issues of redirection etc. Megxit has become such as massive global term now that it will likely remain the title of the article describing the event and the weeks afterwards (until the Foundation is going in April). Other more formal terms such as resignation etc. are incorrect (per the article). What any reader will search for, when researching this mad period, is Megxit. Britishfinance (talk) 12:47, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Britishfinance, Even then, I still think Megxit as a standalone article from Sussex Royal Foundation if and when Sussex Royal Foundation is deserving of an article. I don't think we should ever condense and merge Megxit to a mere section of a Sussex Royal Foundation article as to do so would be both undue and overly puffery, eh? Doug Mehus T·C 15:17, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, but rename.It's being talked about by many news sources and is starting to become more well-known, though I feel like it should be renamed to something else. Fernsong (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect for now. Way WP:TOOSOON O3000 (talk) 15:34, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If an event that is capable of generating over 50 SIGCOV refs in the highest grade RS (e.g. WP:RS/Ps) is TOOSOON, then we should shut down all "in the news" Wikipedia articles; there have been very few that have ever generated this volume of SIGCOV pieces – even after a year. We have The Times (one of the highest-grade RS out there), saying Hard or soft Megxit? What’s on the table; or on a more serious note, MSNBC (another high-grade RS) saying How racism in Britain contributed to 'Megxit’. Britishfinance (talk) 10:36, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to...well, that's another matter. The Harry article, I suppose, or a general article on the British royal family, it doesn't matter much to me. (No, not to Sussex Royal Foundation--the whole thing is bigger than just a business venture.) That this got 8000 views is not a surprise--it's a happening thing, and a valid reason to make a redirect. That we should have an article under that name is another matter. The article right now, of course, reads like a well-organized selection of celebrity trivia, with half the article dedicated to "reactions" and a chunk on the business aspect of it. Once you take out the NOTNEWS stuff, and once we are done with this in the news cycle, there's not much left, at least for now. Drmies (talk) 18:13, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is, wrongly or rightly, one of the biggest news stories in the world (hence why this article is constructed from the highest grade RS, all of whom have full SIGCOV pieces on the story). It will always be an article. It also has "legs" to it that these RS have raised (and are in the article), around racism and the structure of the UK monarchy . However, all that aside, in a platform whose ratio of articles-to-active-editors/admins is rising relentlessly, having a well constructed article on "Megxit" is a great display to future editors of what WP can do (e.g. parse through all the junk-RS on this topic to capture the most important facts). UK royalty articles are collectively, probably the most viewed articles in Wikipedia by our readers. Unfortunately, because of this AfD, this article appears in few google searches on the topic (some !votes above have registered surprise that they could not find it easily). I think we are scoring an own-goal here. Britishfinance (talk) 10:27, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

- Drmies, I agree with Britishfinance and others that this article is notable on its own, so I'm not sure how redirecting makes sense. We'd have to duplicate the content on each of the articles for Meghan and Harry and, even then, WP:BLP or other policies may constrain us in terms of how much detail we go into on it. The one thing I strongly agree with you on, though, is that Megxit is entirely separate of Sussex Royal Foundation as it's way bigger and broader than that foundation, which may be deserving of its own, separate, standalone article in the future. Doug Mehus T·C 17:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Well, I disagree that it should stand on its own, so for me redirecting makes sense! BTW, don't be mistaken on the BLP: it applies everywhere (including in other namespaces), so whether something is in the article on the person or the article on a -gate or -exit does not matter. There is no difference in how much detail is licensed in one article or the other except by editorial common sense and MoS guidelines. Drmies (talk) 17:23, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Drmies, Thanks for the clarification re: WP:BLP. Though, given the neutral tone of the article and that we have multiple articles on Donald Trump and various controversies, I don't think there is a WP:BLP violation for giving undue weight to this story, right? Doug Mehus T·C 17:26, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per ~~nom,~~ Britishfinance. Their points make the most sense for now. CaroleHenson (talk) 10:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Struck out "nom".–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:30, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per nom, Britishfinance. --IndexAccount (talk) 10:37, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and oppose rename - I'm not sure why so many are invoking WP:TOOSOON on this, which isn't policy or guideline, it's only an essay, and if applied literally would mean we'd never add articles about current events. Much as I personally think the story is overblown nonsense and it shouldn't be a big deal, it's clear that this has enough substance and enough reliable source coverage to easily meet our standards for both notability and having a standalone article. It's a bigger deal than Covfefe. On the naming, although I wouldn't be opposed in principle to a descriptive title I think there's a big problem with defining what that is. For a while the article was titled "Resignation of..." which is inaccurate. They haven't resigned from the Royal family, they've just "stepped back" from some of their duties. As such, the current title which has gained lots of traction in lots of sources, describes the topic in a WP:CONCISE fashion and with enough frequency to justify as a WP:COMMONNAME. In short, leave exactly as is. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 10:47, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru, Here, here. And, well said. I had forgotten Covfefe has a standalone article and you're right, this is way bigger than that. There are potential implications for the British monarchy and, indeed, all Commonwealth countries. It may not be as big as Brexit, but it's arguably bigger than Wexit Canada/Wexit, which also has a standalone article. So, you've made me add to my own "keep" !vote above by both opposing a rename and a merger with a future potential Sussex Royal Foundation article as Drmies rightly points out this is much bigger, and broader, than their charitable foundation. --Doug Mehus T·C 17:24, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and oppose rename This is the most significant royal event since Wallis Simpson and King Edward VIII.Arbil44 (talk) 11:14, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete

-Loaded, non neutral title

-Wikipedia is not a gossip column

-WP:TOO SOON

-The existence of the Wikipedia article is likely to promote the use of the term thereby becoming a self fulfilling prophecy that the term is relevant. Check back in a year and see if anyone is still using it Slywriter (talk) 14:56, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is already a global trending term, and this article does not appear on google search because of the AfD, so it is not contributing to its trending. Rather than being able to read a well structured en-WP article on the topic using the highest grade RS, people have to wade through literally thousands of global RS on it, a lot of which is junk. Britishfinance (talk) 15:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If a reader searches in google under "Megxit site:wikipedia.org" (i.e. show me what Wikipedia has on Megxit), you will get a Spanish Wikipedia article on Megxit, and a Hebrew Wikipedia article on Megxit; but nothing in English Wikipedia as we are still in the AfD quarantine. Britishfinance (talk) 16:40, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Britishfinance, Oh, interesting...Hebrew Wikipedia now has an article on Megxit? Interesting. There's got to be a Wikipedia policy, essay, or guideline, that recommends, where possible, English versions of foreign language Wikipedia articles, for accessibility purposes, too. Doug Mehus T·C 17:33, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Different Wikipedias have different notability standards, and we don't know if other Wikipedias' articles actually fit with their notability guidelines. That would be a very bad idea if it was implemented. BTW Dmehus, on accessibility please adhere to MOS:LISTGAP with your comments. J 947 ^{^{^(c)}}, at 20:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

J947,

Thank you for clarifying the different notability standards for different Wikipedias. As to MOS:LISTGAP, I was not aware of that policy, though I'm not sure which part you were referencing. I have seen many, many editors indent one further level with each subsequent nested reply. Some editors use an asterisk followed by colons, whilst others use all colons. As long as editors aren't inserting multiple bullet points with each indentation, I can see no real difference between the two styles. If referencing extra blank lines, I haven't been? That was Slywriter's post above, so my using reply-link likely ignored the extra blank line below his or her comment? Doug Mehus T·C 20:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I had noticed that you responded to '*' with '::' once (it only happened when you didn't use reply-link). J 947 ^{^{^(c)}}, at 21:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as passes the standard for NOTNEWS by miles and even if TOOSOON was a policy then this is most definitely not too soon. The gist of TOOSOON is that it has to be verifiable by non-independent sources. Of course this is verifiable by non-independent sources. I have no opinion on the rename. J 947 ^{^{^(c)}}, at 20:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
J947, Question: Do you mean verifiable by "independent sources"? Great point referencing WP:NOTNEWS, too, and refuting WP:TOOSOON by rightly noting it's an essay that seeks to offer guidance rather than a hard policy and also that this is not too soon. Doug Mehus T·C 20:58, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for noticing, I meant non-independent sources. J 947 ^{^{^(c)}}, at 21:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, unfortunately. Clearly passes NOTNEWS by spades; there's continued coverage in reliable outlets (internationally), and although the name is somewhat of a tabloid tripe, the story itself is not. And, as if it needs repeating with so many experienced editors in the room: changing a page's title is about as far from a reason for deletion as we can get. That's for the talk page with a cucumber bleedin' crustless-sandwich on the side. ——SN 54129 20:19, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Serial Number 54129, Yummy...you've made me hungry for a cucumber sandwich, but I prefer my cucumber sandwiches with crusts. Doug Mehus T·C 21:00, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Rename, though I don't have a good target at the moment. Note also that there are plenty of articles stating that Megxit is a tabloid creation (for example ‘Megxit’ Is the New Brexit in a Britain Split by Age and Politics at The New York Times, #Megxit misogyny: How Piers Morgan and British tabloids made Meghan Markle a scapegoat at Economic Times, 'Megxit' may seem like a simple portmanteau, but it has far more sinister undertones at ABC News), or that its the result of tabloids "having it in" for Meghan Markle (for example As the Queen calls a crisis meeting over ‘Megxit’, what's next for the British royal family?, and many others). This should be made much clearer in the article. Mind matrix 03:25, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article explicitly says in the first sentence of the section titled Megxit#Naming, that the term was created by British tabloid, The Sun. The article also says that the term “Megxit”, per the highest grade RS, is also notable for its embedded implication that Meghan drove the decision. The highest grade RS also says “Megxit” is notable for its pejorative aspect, which is another aspect of the story (eg animosity of British tabloid media to Meghan, and/or aspects of racism). And, less than a week after the term was created, the RS have been reporting on the explosion in “Megxit” merchandising.

In addition, per both google search stats, and use by the highest grade RS (per the article), “Megxit” is by some distance, the WP:COMMONNAME, and the most likely search term a reader would use.

And of course, AfD is not for naming articles. Britishfinance (talk) 09:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Britishfinance, Megxit now has half has many pageviews as Google Search in the past 30 days, and it's not even been 30 days. Doug Mehus T·C 09:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Even today, just 7 days after the announcement, the three highest grade newspaper RS in the US, all have SIGCOV pieces on "Megxit" (e.g. COMMONNAME), with the NYT exploring the meaning of the term in more detail and its links with the same voter split from Brexit (e.g. the term is itself becoming the topic).

New York Times (15 January 2020): ‘Megxit’ Is the New Brexit in a Britain Split by Age and Politics

Wall Street Journal (15 January 2020): ‘Megxit’ Causes Global Uproar. Canada Shrugs.

Washington Post (15 January 2020): How Megxit put Queen Elizabeth II in the role of crisis manager once again

I had my doubts originally, but Megxit has undoubtly become a standalone WP-notable topic now. Britishfinance (talk) 10:23, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 20:17, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rupak Sapkota

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Subject of article is a non notable scholar who has no in-depth significan coverage in reliable sources hence does not qualify as per GNG. Celestina007 (talk) 12:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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A tough one. It's true that GNG is not unequivocally met. But I would usually vote KEEP appealing to systemic bias on this kind of borderline cases relating to Nepal but for some additional considerations. This, this and this are the SIGCOVs we have. My search didn't reveal anything else and I'm inclined to think this is all there is, considering the article is almost certainly WP:AUTO or at the very least WP:PAID. The first source is just a poor man's second source covering the same event, while the third one, the very existence of which is impressive contributor toward presumption of notability, doesn't itself bring much to the table by way of potentially supporting new content. Additional arguments for Keep include the facts that

the subject seems to be one of the foremost Nepali scholars on Nepal-China relations not to mention actually knowing Chinese and having a PhD, and therefore the go-to expert for news media, print and otherwise, national and international.
the subject seems to be a prolific contributor to newspapers, although the google scholar stats are unimpressive.
the subject is the son of Agni Sapkota and therefore, WP:CRYSTAL alert, is only going to move upward and onward (incidentally also an argument for DELETE (WP:TOOSOON)). As we have enough independent SIGCOV to maintain a stub, we might as well keep it to save trouble of recreation.

The argument for DELETE would be:

As with creation, the only interested party in maintaining/updating the article is likely to be a WP:COI one. An undisclosed COI editor let loose on an article no one else is interested in maintaining, does not an encyclopedic entry make. The article itself requires a lot of cleanup already, almost to the point of qualifying for a WP:TNT. So, it's preferable to nuke this one and wait for the subject to become truly notable enough for an independent editor to recreate the article.

Weighing everything, it's a WEAK KEEP from me if the article creator discloses their COI and commits to following policy, before this is closed, and otherwise a

DELETE until such time as the subject attains unquestionable notability (1.5 to 2 more SIGCOVs meeting the criteria). Usedtobecool ☎️ 15:52, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete Wikipedia is not a platform for self-promotion. We need to quickly destroy any articles that are such or we will be flooded by it.John Pack Lambert (talk) 06:42, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Delete Fails WP:BIO. scope_creep^Talk 13:39, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Sandstein 12:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ebenezer Norman

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Utterly non-notable individual. This might be the product of a Santa Monica College course, but I am not 100% sure. An editor with the subject's name appears to have been involved in the editing too. In any case, there is no coverage at all. Only source I could find was this one, where he was mentioned once in passing. PK650 (talk) 04:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete not even close to meeting any inclusion criteria.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:27, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Actually it looks like there are a fair number of reasonable feature articles about Ebenezer Norman that are cited in this article--for example, this, this, this, and a number of others. Philepitta (talk) 02:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree they're a start in the right direction, but they're far from SIGCOV. Firstly they're about his school, not himself. Secondly, they're very local outlets, and I'm unsure if they would be considered reliable, or at least I would question their reliability unless someone experienced in the matter can attest to their weight and validity. Thirdly, one of the sources you elicited is a Denver Catholic publication, which obviously raises independence issues as well, given his initiative is at least in part a Catholic one (financially speaking, for one). Best, PK650 (talk) 04:29, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The sources in the article already seem sufficient in that they deal with him directly. Many deal with his organization or projects in more detail, but even in these he's discussed sufficiently (even if he isn't the primary subject) to indicate to me that he passes WP:GNG. --Jayron 32 16:40, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Re the "sufficient" sources listed in the article, and excluding citations to Facebook, Youtube, Catholic and University non-independent press (he works with Catholic organizations and got press from the University he attended, for example), as well as what appear to be blog posts, we are left with the following:

[64] A local community radio article that briefly discusses "Young Women Survivors of War in Liberia", and mentions Norman twice.
[65] A press release titled "Nobel Peace Prize Winner Receives Award In Arvada", mentioning him being at the event.
3 local Colorado KUSA articles I could access (another returned a 404): [66], [67] & [68] - these are the most solid, albeit local sources yet.
[69] An interview on the same local radio.
[70], [71] & [72] Lastly these 3 that again are about speeches by other people.

Now, if you think this satisfies SIGCOV, then I think we have very different ideas of what satisfies the GNG. Best, PK650 (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fails WP:GNG.-Splinemath (talk) 01:01, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: There's no adequate consensus to either keep or delete the article, thereby I'm relisting it.
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The result was keep. BD2412 T 05:16, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alexandra Eala

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Non-notable tennis player who fails to meet WP:NTENNIS and WP:GNG. Some promising results as a junior but nothing major yet to indicate any significant notability yet. Adamtt9 (talk) 12:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete a non-notable 15-year-old tennis player.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:51, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Definitely passes WP:GNG and WP:ATHLETE. I found some good and indepth media coverage and I've added to article as well. Lunar Clock (talk) 17:48, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Per Lunar Clock. Media sources which are recently added indicate that Eala has participated in several major Tennis tournaments. Article is good enough to pass WP:NATHLETE. _SUPER ^ASTIG 07:21, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep Per Lunar Clock. And age has nothing to do with notability! She's an amazing young woman! Missvain (talk) 02:24, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Clear delete. With sports, articles that only cover tournament results are considered WP:ROUTINE coverage and do not count towards WP:GNG. The only article that goes beyond that is by Globe Telecom, one of her sponsors and therefore not independent enough to count towards WP:GNG either. To the editors that say keep, which sources do they believe count towards WP:GNG? Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:36, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Eala is 14. Seeded 4th best of 64 players in Australian Open Juniors. When she's playing at Wimbledon next summer, you'll have to put her page back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.212.169.119 (talk) 14:37, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GNG, I found https://www.foxsports.ph/tennis/1047277/alex-eala-the-phenom-the-prodigy/ from Fox Sports (Philippines) which is definitely significant coverage from a reliable source. Don't let the weakness of the other keep !voters fool you, there's enough coverage here to get this article over the line. Iffy★Chat -- 19:45, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. RL0919 (talk) 12:54, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikka

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Promotional article for a non notable organization falling short of WP:NCORP. Celestina007 (talk) 12:02, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - non-notable promotional article. --RaviC (talk) 01:24, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - spam from a self-confessed and now blocked spammer (Special:Undelete/User:Viyyom, Special:Undelete/Rakesh v Mishra). MER-C 03:04, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete non-notable promotional article. scope_creep^Talk 14:24, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - not-notable. --SalmanZ (talk) 23:15, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Tone 20:18, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2S15 Norov

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I couldn't find much about this in the Google search index. The article just solely rely upon a single source and that too is in Russian language. Abishe (talk) 12:00, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - I'm not seeing any valid reason for deletion. It's to be expected I think that references to a Soviet weapon are in Russian, and there is no prohibition against using Russian sources for articles, or indeed for an article to be wholly based on non-English language sources. It crops up in other Russian language sources, the Russian wikipedia's article on it is at ru:2С15, and a search in Russian will reveal images of it as well as further sources. The fact that mentions are scarce in English sources are understandable, it was apparently a development of the 2S1 Gvozdika developed by the Stela works, but after a long and torturous design process, it was eventually shut down with only a few prototypes built. From the pictures are available, some of these still exist in various states of disrepair. As with many articles, it could use improvement and expansion, but Wikipedia:Deletion is not cleanup. Spokoyni (talk) 04:01, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Seems to have sufficient coverage in RS. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:52, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Google searches are not reliable sources. Reliable sources are reliable sources. Sandstein 10:10, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Khelo India Youth Games 2020

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We don't have articles for the first two seasons of Khelo India Youth Games. This us about the third edition and it may not be necassary to keep a national junior level competition in the encyclopedia. It clearly fails WP:GNG. Abishe (talk) 11:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Many India media is covering it including Newspaper, Online, TV News etc it is youth games but have generated more coverage than National Games. The article should remain in wikipedia. (talk) 17:58, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:23, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Just do a Google News search and you'll find plenty of coverage about this specific 2020 event to build out an article and pass GNG. Missvain (talk) 21:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Clearly passes WP:GNG. The nominator's argument is based on WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST and is quite weak IMO. Bharatiya29 14:48, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Sandstein 11:56, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Darius Dobre

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The subject is non notable and WP:TOOSOON. It misses out on WP:GNG. Abishe (talk) 11:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. No evidence of notability. Mccapra (talk) 04:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. There is a fair consensus for keeping the article, after extended time for discussion. Advocates of deletion note that notability is WP:NOTINHERITED, but the extent to which this applies to the notability of a company that manufactures notable products is unclear. Examples suggest that the notability of the manufacturer does not render its product notable, but it does not appear to be as well-established that notability of the product is equally ineffective with regard to notability of its manufacturer. A rename has been proposed after other editors presented their opinions, and should be re-filed as a WP:RM. BD2412 T 03:52, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hypex Electronics

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Prod removed with some new references, but I am afraid they are still not in-depth about the company and/or press releases or based on such (WP:ROUTINE business as usual). So I am still concerned this fails WP:NCOMPANY/GNG. Let's discuss. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep A Google News search for "hypex ucd" brings back many detailed sources that can be used to expand the article. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 13:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Ritchie333: You should now better that WP:GOOGLETEST is not sufficient. Which sources are good? "AVHub (press release)"? "AVHub (press release)"? Also, those are reviews of a product (Hypex UcD). A product can be notable while its parent company is not, per WP:NOTINHERITED. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:46, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I think the IEEE Spectrum article has quite substantial coverage. The wiki article had some marketing language, but that is now removed, and the wiki article has been here since 2005. Apoc2400 (talk) 14:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Apoc2400: You know that WP:NOTINHERITED? The article is about a specific product (Philips UcD Audio Amplifier) which may be notable. That article contains about one and a half sentences about Hypex: "One of those early licensees was an audio startup called Hypex Electronics. Hypex soon began producing a version of the UcD...". This is not in-depth, significant coverage as required by GNG and like. Seriously, how can you argue that one and a half sentences represent "quite substantial coverage" coverage? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:46, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The article is about a specific product (Philips UcD Audio Amplifier) which may be notable" - As you can see, I have expanded the article to include other products mentioned in audio specialist magazines. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 12:22, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 19:58, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep for now the company products gets reviewed in the places where one would expect, like Guitar World Magazine, Audio Express, their components used in other products like this one at Sterophile Magazine. Wm335td (talk) 21:12, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and rename to Hypex UcD. The article is currently mostly about the company's UcD products and the reliable sources noted above by other editors are also mostly about the company's products, so morphing this article via a rename to focus on the notable content and available sourcing seems a reasonable way to preserve, rather than delete, verifiable information per our policy WP:ATD. --{{u|Mark viking}} {Talk} 01:49, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete There are no references that provide significant coverage with in-depth information on the *company* and containing independent content on the *company* and while a lot has been written about the products (as noted by the Keep !voters above), this does not translate as notability for the company. Topic fails GNG/NCORP. HighKing⁺⁺ 19:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"There are no references that provide significant coverage" .... "while a lot has been written about the products" - surely without the former, the latter would be impossible. The review of the Hypex NCore 400 kit (that I just added to the article) would certainly seem to be "significant coverage", and neutral, giving it criticised the lack of inputs other than XLR on the module. The assertion that writing about the products cannot be done in an article about the parent company seems incorrect based on other articles I have improved to rescue from AfD, including Kelly's of Cornwall and Lees of Scotland. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 12:06, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the guidelines, there's nothing specific that says a review of a product/service/etc cannot be used to establish notability of the company but in my opinion, for that to occur, the review must provide information on the company itself that meets the criteria (significant, in-depth, independent content). WP:PRODUCT makes it clear that information on a product may be included in the article about the company but that if the product is notable in its own right it may also have its own separate article. In summary, while we have references that discuss the products of this company, we have still not found any references *about the company* that meet the criteria for establishing notability. As such, the company fails the criteria for notability and articles about their products (that do not provide coverage on the company) do not confer notability. HighKing⁺⁺ 13:01, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I concur, with stress on WP:YELLOWPAGES/WP:NOTINHERITED. A product can be notable while its producer is not, just like a notable book does not make its author notable automatically, etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:03, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a good example? Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:18, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Most architects firms (who worked on famous buildings), record labels (who have famous artists), art galleries (who exhibited a famous art work), some manufacturers of popular consumer goods such as the Rubik's Cube ... there's loads of examples. Hang around AfD long enough and you'll see for yourself. HighKing⁺⁺ 18:25, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have separate articles on Ernő Rubik, Rubik's Cube and Ideal Toy Company (manufacturers of the cube). Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 19:25, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I saw a lot of articles about video games (or board games) that are notable but their publishers are not. Of course, sometimes it may mean the article needs to be created, but for most small companies, it's rather hard. For example, Scythe (board game) is a major board game title, but I doubt its publisher is notable, ditto for the designer. Or consider GMT Games. A bunch of titles it publishes are notable, but frankly, that article does not suggest the company is (but I haven't researched it yet). Or Polanie (video game), a cult Polish video game, whose publisher is certainly no notable... Or the publisher of Bleach: Brave Souls that I recently stubbed, through again, I haven't researched the company yet. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 20:23, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep as a navigational list for the many articles about decades. The nomination statement seems to be suggesting that all the individual decade articles should be deleted, but none of those are properly nominated. RL0919 (talk) 12:52, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

List of decades

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Delete or reform.

Users went very far down a rabbit-hole in creating all of these articles, but failed to consider the logic or necessity of them.

Decades might make sense for the 19th/20th century, but the phrasing gets increasingly nonsensical as you look back in time – "the 1150s", "the 330s", or "the 0s BC". Almost nobody would ever refer to time in these terms. They're not notable.

The bulk of these 'decade' articles are only duplicated content from the 'year' articles. If this list contained only the noted decades with proper articles, that would be fine but the same function could be fulfilled by Category:Decades.

A special mention for the invented pre-AD decades... "the 1010s BC"? (That's 1019 BC – 1010 BC.) -- Demokra (talk) 11:31, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete as per abive argument, lmao this is such a silly article to have. Why do we need another meainginless list of a different way of meauring time?Theprussian (talk) 14:31, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Valid organization/navigation page for time periods; a merge with List of years or List of centuries could be appropriate though. Are you suggesting deleting pages like 1010s BC and 1150s? No, that's a standard way to organize historical events though merging the former into 11th century BC seems like a good idea, as well as merging some year articles into their decade articles. Reywas92^Talk 20:15, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as a navigational aid or merge to List of years (a new column at the head of each row of ten years seems ideal). Clarityfiend (talk) 21:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep As long as there are that many articles linked to, this list is valid. If you want to get rid of all of the many decade articles, then do so first, then the list has no purpose. Until then it aids in navigation. Dream Focus 01:29, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Dream Focuses' good argument. Hog Farm (talk) 04:14, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The nominator is talking specifically about all the articles linked to this one, which isn't what the AfD is about. This one, is for navigation, and perfectly valid. Ajf773 (talk) 17:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Is there a guideline for, "we can have categories and lists both"? I see people claiming we cannot so often. Anarchangel (talk) 02:38, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete DELETE: It is ridiculous listing groups of ten years as decades but excluding years 1 to 9 because they do not constitute a decade. Do it properly from year 1 to the end of year 10 = the first decade, followed by the other decades to produce a consistent result. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pvadasz (talk • contribs) 05:57, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, this page provides useful navigation and provides a good place to showcase the logical conflict between cardinal/ordinal decades, where in our current counting system the first span can't be a real decade. That is useful information to have visually available and discoverable to readers searching for information about decades in general. This should not be deleted or limited to pages about other topics or specific decades only. --Krinkle (talk) 18:51, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Dede2008 (talk) 11:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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The result was delete. Sandstein 11:56, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GreenFiber

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Non notable organization that has not been discussed in reliable sources. It possess no WP:CORPDEPTH & fails WP:NORG. Celestina007 (talk) 11:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Celestina007 (talk) 11:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Celestina007 (talk) 11:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Management-related deletion discussions. Celestina007 (talk) 11:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete as there’s no evidence of notability. Mccapra (talk) 04:40, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus, after a discussion that has generated a great deal more heat than light. —S Marshall T/C 16:04, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bachelor Lake (Brown County, Minnesota)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Lake is not notable. All that is known is its location (and hence also elevation) and uninsightful assertion, from its name, that it is named for a bachelor who lived nearby. I presume that was either a) simply made up by the commercial author of a typical place names book, which just asserts "Bachelor lake, in Stark, was named for a lone homesteader there, unmarried" while in fact it was named for a childhood pet or a song or a place where someone grew up or in honor of their uncle or whatever; or maybe b) there was a bachelor there, but in either case it is not interesting or encyclopedic and does not suffice to open a Wikipedia article. Note, there has been a fairly wide misapprehension that Wikipedia is a gazetteer about lakes, while that is not true. This does not meet wp:GNG or wp:GEOLAND or any other criteria for existence. This is similar to recent Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Halifax Lake, where all that was known is the location and an assertion it was named for where someone came from. Doncram (talk) 04:55, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2019 December 6. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 05:16, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Minnesota-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 09:37, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 03:53, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 04:57, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Brown County, Minnesota, where the lake is mentioned. I can't find any information about this feature except a couple of brief mentions that only establish existence. If the lake is not deemed to be a likely search term, then I'm fine with deletion. Hog Farm (talk) 18:15, 6 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that redirect idea; we should consider alternatives to deletion. I see the county article does, oddly, have a Geography subsection "Lakes", with a list of names of lakes and the only reference being a link to Google maps. I am inclined to simply delete that list there; it makes sense for county articles to list towns and other populated places, but about lakes, it could merely be said "As can be seen from looking at a map, the county has a number of lakes." Which is true for any county in Minnesota. There is no subsection for rivers or forests or anything besides "Major highways" and "Adjacent counties". Substantial rivers seem more interesting to me, and are covered in prose discussion in the geography section, where it is also given that "611 square miles (1,580 km2) is land and 7.4 square miles (19 km2) (1.2%) is water"; that alone seems like the right level of coverage about ponds, lakes, whatever, to me. If one were to expand more about geography it seems to me there should be more discussion about the 98.8% which non-water-covered land, instead.

I further see that three of the other listed lake names link to articles similar to this one, with no information besides location and an assertion of naming reason attributed to the same Minnesota place names book. The place names book itself cites no sources for anything, it reads like it is passing along rumors/speculation, in my reading, as I may have suggested above. Anyhow personally I think deletion followed by deletion of that mention at the county article seems appropriate. --Doncram (talk) 03:36, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. ミラ P 04:42, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No evidence of notability for one of Minnesota's 10,000+ lakes. Also delete School Lake (Brown County, Minnesota), Juni Lake, and Altermatt Lake. Reywas92^Talk 08:44, 7 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota. MB 03:58, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep; each of Minnesota's 10,000+ natural lakes are notable as explained in Wikipedia:Notability (geographic features), given that "information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist". Instead of being redirected or outright deleted, the lake articles should be expanded with details like surface area, fishing opportunities, etc.– Gilliam (talk) 16:32, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Uh, surface area is a statistic, not a notability-establishing fact. The idea that merely knowing it has a name and where that name could have come from is notability is utterly absurd. This is not information of substance whatsoever. So can you provide the content it could be expanded with? It's a generic small body of water that no one has ever written anything of substance about apparently. Reywas92^Talk 02:43, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Update - with a bit more research, I discovered that this is not just a natural lake, it is a protected natural lake per the Minnesota DNR which classified it as "Natural Environment (NE)—This classification is intended for those waters needing a significant amount of protection because of their unique natural characteristics or their unsuitability for development and sustained recreational use." NE has the "most restrictive development standards." It clearly passes V and N per geo features. More sources in my iVote below. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:05, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  Holy crap nobody cares. You're acting like this is some great body of water that a bunch of official people decided was worthy and proclaimed to the public "Bachelor is special!" when in fact it was just mentioned in a table on a state report on the Cottonwood River (Minnesota), which administratively determined that since the river is polluted, some bodies in its watershed are at risk. Countless places are "protected" to various extents by falling under a variety of zoning and development rules – things don't get their own articles just because they can't be bulldozed at will. If you wanted to summarize the results of this study in the river's article that could be nice, but the idea that every concept barely mentioned in a routine hundred-page report that is not independently covered needs its own article is nuts. We are WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Or are you going to do this for the rest of the millions of tiny lakes and streams out there? This still has zero sources that meet not just the "significant coverage" requirement but a has-a-single-complete-sentence-written-about-it expectation. Reywas92^Talk 22:43, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  Settle down, please. Per WP:GEOLAND: Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc. The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. If that wasn't the case, I would have assumed a much different position. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:48, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep WP:GEOLAND#4. Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc. The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. Minnesota has a requirement that a lake be at least 10 acres (bachelor lake is 97 acres). Wisconsin has no such requirement. What that means is that lakes in Minnesota are notable, but in Wisconsin any old pond can be called a lake. Looks like a good fishing spot, Here is a 1943 map of Bachelor Lake. Lightburst (talk) 00:40, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, really? Looks like a good fishing spot? Seems like you were fooled by fake news. There is NOTHING valid, besides the location of the lake, in that hookandbullet.com "source" about fishing. It suggests that it has info about fishing at Bachelor Lake, but it does not. Lightburst, I assume you did not read it? That is like other commercial series of webpages ostensibly providing information about lakes, based purely on the coordinates. Why not pad the article out with assertions about weather in the general area, based on just the coordinates, too? I think there must be a "source" for that too. [Later: actually some or all of these ad pages do in fact have junk weather stuff, which I didn't see. However it is either entirely made up or is current weather info from the general area, generated by some lookup of a weather service based on the coordinates alone. It is manufactured, as if it was about the lake, but is not. And in this case it is supposedly current weather, which is not for us to use in the encyclopedia. The other kind of useless weather stuff which could be manufactured would be statements about average weather in the state of Minnesota or other large area in general. --Doncram (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2019 (UTC) ][reply]

And the "lakeplace.com/lakefinder" source, yeah that is another commercial site. It suggests it has photos showing the lake, but clicking brings you only to ... Google maps.

About the 1943 map, well, that is not a source to say anything about the lake, either. From Google maps, we already knew there is a lake there.

Selective quoting from wp:GEOLAND doesn't exactly convince me. How about its statement that This guideline specifically excludes maps and census tables from consideration when establishing topic notability, because these sources often establish little except the existence of the subject (while maps do contribute to verifying existence). --Doncram (talk) 02:35, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The 1943 map shows Bachelor lake and it was certainly notable throughout the history of Brown County and Minnesota. And the links I have provided do not confer notability. However you missed this on the fishing spot link so I will help you So you're interested in fishing Bachelor Lake. As fishermen, we know there are times when our favorite spots are just not active so we built our Hot Spots feature to show you where the fish are biting in the area of Bachelor Lake. Now you'll know where catches are being recorded in the general area, and you can plan your day on the water. Check out our Fishing Times tab to determine when the fish will be most active. To find Bachelor Lake enter the 44.256905 latitude, and -94.651367 longitude coordinates into your GPS device or smart phone. If you need fishing tackle, or are looking for a fishing guide or fishing charter please visit Tackle, Guides, Charters IMO it is plain to see that WP:GEOLAND is met. Perhaps you should have done a thorough WP:BEFORE instead of attacking !voters who disagree with you. You have come at me like a snarly editor. Perhaps you should realize that I too am volunteering my time to address this frivolous nomination. Making snarly comments like this has no place in an AfD. Why not pad the article out with assertions about weather in the general area... Lightburst (talk) 02:56, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still confused what the point of this fishing website is...The data for nearby Zanders Lake is identical to that of Bachelor Lake. This is autogenerated based on this website's model for local weather, not information that could be included in the article or anything providing notability. The 1943 map shows that the lake existed and had been named by that point, not "notable throughout the history". Reywas92^Talk 04:33, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry I guess that Lightburst perceived my comments as "snarly", but I perceive that quote differently: it is one of a few variations of boilerplate text used in all that fish-finder company's advertising pages, with nothing about the individual lake except its coordinates. Sorry, you might think that it is going to provide fishermen's actual comments about fishing in this lake, but it does not. Notice each of the comments is incoherent junk, not a real comment from a fisherman. Each indicates it is continued elsewhere, but if you click you just reach more ads, don't even get the complete (bogus) comment. And the comments are even labelled as being about not-this-lake, and they are repeated others of the series of ad pages. We should not provide links to those ad pages; they are a disservice to readers. --Doncram (talk) 23:19, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

- (edit conflict, still posting duplicative response) I'm confused, what's a single fact in the fishing website that can be included in the article? It appears to be an autogenerated page merely establishing it is a lake that you need a fishing license to fish in. And that's not a map of the lake, it's a map of the township in which the lake is located: "This guideline specifically excludes maps and census tables from consideration when establishing topic notability, because these sources often establish little except the existence of the subject." Sure, in Minnesota it is in fact a lake, but that doesn't mean it's notable. Reywas92^Talk 02:43, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Reywas92: Fishing spot, not to confer notability. IMO a 92-97 acre lake is notable per WP:GEOLAND as a natural feature. It is a major feature of Brown County Minn. Historically named Bachelor lake - not numbered. I respect your opinion in many AfDs. My reading of Geoland differs from yours. Lightburst (talk) 03:01, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's only the seventh-largest lake even in this small county. If it were "a major feature" there would be something substantive written about it by a human, not just existence on an old map and an autogenerated fishing time table. Reywas92^Talk 04:33, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I looked into User:MB's suggestion that the lake be redirected to List of lakes of Minnesota. I acknowledge that now there are 3 pieces of info about this lake, arguably:

Location (coordinates)
An assertion of "explanation" for name of lake. Which I scoff at: I don't believe the source, frankly, which itself cites no sources, and is just making a probable-reasonable guess that it is named for a bachelor. It doesn't provide the name of a person or any other information, contributing to my believing the source manufactured a sentence as part of building a saleable book. We should not manufacture stuff ourselves, or accept manufactured stuff.
Size of lake, apparently 92 acres in 1968. From a 1968 state survey of lakes greater than 10 acres in size, which also reports an assertion of maximum depth and a measure of clarity of water in 1968, too, as can be seen in the table at List of lakes of Minnesota, which is sourced from there. Apparently this is one of the 11,842 lakes in Minnesota that justify the state's claim to be a land of 10,000 lakes. Previous wikipedia editors have sort of chosen to list all of these 11,842 lakes in the list-article, apparently, but [I think] the table there has way fewer than that number. [Because I looked at the 1968 study and saw that] Many or most of the 11,842 lakes were just numbered bodies of waters, without any name, in 1968, and I am guessing that is why listing them couldn't really be done. But there is a row for this Bachelor Lake there.

Okay, I just now inserted an anchor on the row for this Bachelor Lake into the List of lakes of Minnesota.

It would be acceptable to me for this article to be redirected to List of lakes of Minnesota#Bachelor Lake (Brown County, Minnesota). Note that this is actually better for readers, in providing more information to them, because it shows the lake in context: by sorting on the size column one can see its size relative to all the other lakes listed there. (On my computer screen, i can page down 65 times among lakes bigger than this one. [which would be 65 times 10 or 15 or 20 or so, hence 6,500 or 13,000 so comparable to the whole 11,842 size]) --Doncram (talk) 02:35, 9 December 2019 (UTC) [Added some refinements in square brackets just now. --Doncram (talk) 02:19, 10 December 2019 (UTC)][reply]

Here are a few sources for you - how the lake got its name and other such historical information

Minnesota Place Names Book
Minnesota Geographic Names: Their Origin and Historic Significance. Book
Collections of the Minnesota Historical Society Book
History of Brown County, Minnesota: Its People, Industries and Institutions Book
Geology of Minnesota, Volume 1 Book from 1884 commissioned in 1872.
Stark Township mention
History of Brown County mention

I added a few sections to improve the readability, also additional intro regarding location and several references. Lightburst (talk) 03:21, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The first four "books" are reprints of the same line "Bachelor lake in Stark was named for a lone homesteader there". So that is really one source. Collectively these add up to just a few trivial mentions that confirm it exists. As quoted above, Geoland#4 requires enough sources with verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. That has not been demonstrated. MB 04:27, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. There is more out there. But I believe I spent enough time on it. I improved the article; if it is kept I will improve it further. But for now it’s best to for me to move on. Lightburst (talk) 05:11, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for trying to find sources, but in fact those sources provide nothing more. As MB notes, four of them are copies of the same 1920 "Places in Minnesota" type book, just available from different places, and with just the one lame-in-my-view assertion. Numbers 5 and 6 have passing mention of this lake, among other lakes in Brown County, with nothing to add. I brought up the 7th one, the "History of Brown County" one but could not find mention there. However Lightburst identified that one as merely a "mention", too. I do believe several people have spent enough time on this, already, so I am not pinging anyone to come back. And by the way IMHO there was no improvement of the article besides adding assertion of its size (which already appears in the List of Lakes of Minnesota article); other addition appears to be padding with no content. We don't want the same uninformative padding put into 10,000 separate articles that yes, the state conducted a study and this one was on its list, which tells us nothing about the lake. Rather, we have one list-article that does that for all at once, and gives info for each lake in relative context. That's my view, thanks. --Doncram (talk) 23:19, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would say there has been improvement:

*Here is the article before I worked on it. 2 sources, 2 sentences a stub without sections or information about the lake size or exact location
Here is the article now 5 sources, navigation bars, three developed sections. My reading of GEOLAND says this lake is notable. but we will see if a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS agrees. Lightburst (talk) 04:13, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I look at that as having 3 sources. GNIS for location (counts zero towards notability). The one about size of lake being bogus, begging the question of what is the source for the webpage (needs to be deleted). And three pointing to Upham, which you might be thinking are independent, but are not at all. It is the same one sentence about naming, repackaged to be sold as a book again (and i think Upham's unsourced speculation is bogus to report in Wikipedia). Perhaps Upham and his naming stuff is worth one sentence to mention at the list-article, something like "For anyone interested in speculation about the reason for any lake's name, try this unreliable source: [link to one of Upham's books]." We have to agree to disagree about what amounts to an informative article. --Doncram (talk) 04:27, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have discussed the article in this AfD. I have improved the article during the AfD ...I called out our guideline which guides us to keep lakes such as this. For your part you have targeted the article for deletion, and then you have been snarky and dismissive in your responses, ...you have doggedly pursued deletion despite any evidence presented or article improvements. You and I have created walls of texts to reiterate the same positions. You flatly reject the guideline in WP:GEOLAND#4. By now everyone knows your position and my position about the notability of this 97 acre lake. I do hope you do not diminish/fillet the article based on your determination to delete. You should realize we have other actual policies - (the following are not guidelines) WP:ATD WP:PRESERVE and WP:NOTPAPER. I am unwatching this now. Lightburst (talk) 04:56, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I happen to be an "inclusionist" generally, and I do accept GEOLAND, ATD, PRESERVE, NOTPAPER. For my part i have really considered others' points of view and discussed the actual content of the suggested sources. I acknowledged points and was not inflexible ("dogged") in favor of one outcome. It would help the discussion if Lighthouse would acknowledge some things, say that the advertising/fishing stuff is bogus, which they have not. I would acknowledge there is room for disagreement about the merit of Upham's assertions (and one possible outcome which could be discussed would be to add mention of Upham to the row in the list-table, would that meet Lighthouse's wish for coverage of that?). I took suggestions for alternatives seriously and took a step to making "redirect to list" work out better (set up anchor). --Doncram (talk) 15:26, 10 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per GEOLAND, or at least WP:PRESERVE all information in some other way. SpinningSpark 16:10, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am ambivalent about replying, but: All the info, such as it is, can appear in the List of lakes table row. --Doncram (talk) 02:34, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Wikipedia serves as a gazetter-thank you-RFD (talk) 15:24, 13 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not so, not about lakes, not about lots of things. --Doncram (talk) 02:34, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@RFD: Well, it is true we have a policy on that; and since gazetteer is a synonym for "catalog" and "directory", please see WP:NOTCATALOG and WP:NOTDIRECTORY, I think we're probably—policy-wise—WP:NOTGAZETTEER also. ——SN 54129 21:23, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, as a well-attested geographic feature. The nominator makes speculative presumptions about the origin of the name. The name is cited to Warren Upham, whose work on Minnesota place names is cited over 3,000 times in Wikipedia. That source is undisputedly reliable. Kablammo (talk) 12:58, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Reslist due to NAC by sockpuppet.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Guy (help!) 13:26, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota. "It's named after some guy who once lived nearby, and it is in a geological database." is not a basis for an article. Diffusing minimal content over a multitude of dubious, unexpandable microstubs is the worst way to present it. Merge it into a table of other individually non-notable landforms. Reyk _YO! 13:50, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Articles for lakes are kept just like ones for small villages and other places as long as they are on a government database. If you want to change how things are done, then do so in one discussion and change the rules. No sense having the same arguments for thousands of articles like this all the time. Dream Focus 14:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to List of lakes in Minnesota per above. There just aren't enough sources to justify an article, and nothing substantive written by a human. b uidhe 14:27, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota, and per Reyk It's named after some guy who once lived nearby, and it is in a geological database" is not a basis for an article. ——SN 54129 14:29, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota. Obvious WP:ATD, and WP:GEOLAND very specifically does not make the same notability provisions for lakes as it does for villages: lakes/rivers etc are 'often notable provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist' and 'the number of known sources should be considered'. In other words, mere existence on a database is not sufficient. Hug^syrup 15:25, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep WP:Not paper WP:Preserve and WP:Before WP:GEOLAND#4. Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc. Geological Survey (U.S.). Branch of Geographic Names. Minnesota Geographic Names Information System: Alphabetical List. p. 12. Upham, Warren (May 1, 2001). Minnesota Place Names: A Geographical Encyclopedia. p. 12. ISBN 9780873513968. Why is this purge worth anybody's time? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:36, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota for reasons explained by others above. Sad to see the ARS Block Voting Machine again. – Levivich 15:55, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Most KEEP votes were done before this AFD was reopened and I and one other person from the ARS showed up on our own, there no posting there asking anyone to look at this situation. We both gave reasons for our votes. Two people who show up of a lot of AFDs showing up at a single one and agreeing something should be kept, is not a "block voting machine". Kindly assume good faith and focus on the discussion. Dream Focus 16:32, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is one of those WP:AGF is not a suicide pact situations. Normally, yes, I'd WP:AGF that the block voting is coincidental, but a while back (for the VPR thread), I researched it for myself, and I no longer AGF about this. You, and three others, routinely !vote keep as a block, almost always with the same throwaway !vote rationals (like "Keep not paper, preserve, before"). There are other who participate in the blocks occasionally, but there are four core editors in this block. This is disruptive and it needs to stop. Every time I see it in an AfD I participate in, I will point it out, and hopefully you guys will eventually get the hint and change your approach to deletion discussions. – Levivich 17:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to avoid !voting to help the encyclopedia just because it displeases you. Collegial following is allowed, as I have told you on your talk page. Your accusations assume bad faith. And now I see everyone I ever had friction with turning up to sink the AfD. It is a maddening situation made worse by your aspersions. Lightburst (talk) 17:35, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge or Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota as per WP:GEOLAND. There simply is just not enough sourcing to support an article.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:31, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota. There's not enough information to support a stand-alone article. --Jayron 32 17:59, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota; not enough content for a standalone article. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 18:54, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I will be honest, I cannot be bothered to read every word above - (seems like a lot of words regarding the notability of a small lake in Minnesota). I think our WP:SNG is clear in regard to lakes. Per WP:GEOLAND. Named natural features are often notable...This includes...lakes, streams ...etc. We keep lakes. Wm335td (talk) 19:37, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah but one of those "..." is provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist and another of those "..." is The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. If a Wikipedia article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the feature can instead be included in a more general article on local geography. For example, a river island with no information available except name and location should probably be described in an article on the river. I can't figure out why keep !voters citing GEOLAND aren't addressing these parts of GEOLAND. – Levivich 19:58, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How many sources do you want? The article has sources: one source dating back more than 100 years. It is a fact that we have less stringent requirements for GEOLAND. For instance - streams are kept, yet there is rarely any secondary coverage of streams. And we keep small villages and other places as long as they are populated or on a government database. This AfD seems like too much hand wringing over a small lake. Wm335td (talk) 20:12, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not the number of sources, it's their quality. These sources don't let us say anything about Bachelor Lake other than that it exists and its name is Bachelor Lake. As Reyk said, "'It's named after some guy who once lived nearby, and it is in a geological database' is not a basis for an article." In fact, the article has more information about another lake named Bachelor Lake, than about this Bachelor Lake. That's how little information we have about this Bachelor Lake. Populated areas, of course, are treated differently by GEOLAND than lakes and streams, and if there's other articles about non-notable streams, well, you know the rest. – Levivich 20:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Note that Warren Upham's book is cited in several hundred other Wikipedia articles for establishing the notability of other geographical locations. Furthermore, keeping this article would conform to our official set of rules on geographical features. This was noted by others to be covered in GEOLAND #4. Patiodweller (talk) 22:10, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- And the virtually all of those were by the same user who has polluted Wikipedia with thousands of these micro-stubs, which still does not establish notability. This unilateral decision to mass-produce articles without meaningful content or substantive sources is not precedent that the lack thereof is perfectly fine. Reywas92^Talk 06:40, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - I find it very strange that you consider adding thousands of geographic facts to an encyclopaedia to be pollution. Which is more helpful to building an encyclopaedia—adding facts, however minor, or deleting pages because they don't conform to the pedantic details of the guidelines? SpinningSpark 13:34, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - Deleting pages is definitely more encyclopedic than adding minor facts. Semi-automatically-generating thousands of stand-alone stubs about lakes is spam; it has no part in building an encyclopedia, because WP:NOTTRIVIA, WP:NOTEVERYTHING, etc. Deleting pages is curation, which is part of the encyclopedic process. – Levivich 16:19, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      - Named geographic features are not trivia. They are just the sort of information that should be in an encyclopaedia. They just don't compare with minor fictional characters or game items. This is pretty much what GEOLAND is all about. NOTTRIVIA is particularly not relevant here. It is about trivia sections in articles, not article subjects. SpinningSpark 18:40, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        Semi-automatically-generating thousands of stand-alone stubs about lakes is spam; it has no part in building an encyclopedia. Named geographic features can be listed on a table. They don’t all need a stand alone page. There are millions of named geographic features in the world. They don’t each need their own page. And that’s what GEOLAND says. – Levivich 19:42, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect to Brown County, Minnesota (perhaps putting acreage, township, fish in a note - exclude "other" Bachelor Lake info)
and Strong keep as a row in the List of lakes of Minnesota. According to WP:GEOLAND, natural features maybe notable... it doesn't say that by being a natural feature it is notable.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:07, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Changing vote to Delete if the current version remains of the article with failed verification, use of multiple versions of the same book (should use the most recent) and failed verification.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Seems at least as good as Augusta Lake (Dakota County, Minnesota), Augusta Lake (Cottonwood County, Minnesota), Ballantyne Lake, Balsam Lake (Itasca County, Minnesota), Badger Lake (Minnesota), Badger Lakes, Bass Lake (Mahnomen County, Minnesota), Bass Lake (Faribault County, Minnesota), Barsness Lake, Barnes Lake (Minnesota), etc, etc, etc... Station1 (talk) 02:50, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- A unilateral decision to create lots of low-quality non-notable articles does not justify the existence of one because of the presence of the others. These likewise lack any substantive content or sources and should be next to go. Reywas92^Talk 06:40, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've added text and sources. Not the article it was when deletion was first proposed. Under WP:Before, the standard for proposing deletion includes what the article potentially can become. WP:Hey. Given the present state of the article and the sourcing, WP:Before was honored more in the breach, more than in the observance. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 04:04, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still baffled by which of these sources is substantive and provides notability. Goingoutside.com doesn't seem particularly reliable – how the hell does the presence of a campsite at a different lake 5 miles away provide notability for this one?? I've removed that irrelevance, and none of the remaining basic statistics goes beyond what is or can be listed in the main list or Stark Township, Brown County, Minnesota or Brown County, Minnesota. Reywas92^Talk 06:40, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still baffled at your obdurate refusal to acknowledge policy and the present state of the article. WP:Preserve WP:GNG. However, I WP:AGF and your befuddlement (or deliberate blindness) is irrelevant. No matter how much you repeat it, it's not up to you. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:25, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you seem to be befuddled at what "significant coverage" means – which of these sources provides it? This is an utter failure of GNG and an unfortunate refbomb – you added six about the state having lots of lakes and another with the same name. I absolutely support PRESERVING content – all facts specific to this lake are already listed at List of lakes of Minnesota! Reywas92^Talk 18:01, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Reywas. None of these sources meet GNG or provides information that would satisfy GEOLAND. Rather than refbombing, I wish a keep !voter would just post the WP:THREE best sources for us to evaluate. – Levivich 16:44, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to the list. I'm unconvinced by "keep" !voters linking to GEOLAND without going any further. Reading GEOLAND, it says that populated (or formerly populated) geographic features are presumed to be notable, but un-populated features like lakes only if "there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article". Which is exactly the argument that was made by the proposer. ApLundell (talk) 21:13, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Mostly due to Gilliam's arguments. Each of Minnesota's 10,000+ natural lakes is notable because they must meet a criteria. They must be at least ten acres, and I would argue that any article on a lake meeting this criteria should be kept. Eliteplus (talk) 22:45, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Luckilly, the Criteria of the State of Minnesota don't cut a lot of ice against the Criteria of the State of Wikipedia... ——SN 54129 23:00, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with User:Serial Number 54129. The Minnesota lakes are notable as a collection, and they are in fact covered in List of lakes of Minnesota. Yay! --Doncram (talk) 02:29, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment ~~*Redirect~~. A big thing missed by those voting "Keep" is that readers are better served by linking to a row about this lake in a table which provides overall context. The table row has all substantial content that was in the article, and more in fact, and readers can see where this stands relative to other lakes of Minnesota. I nominated the lake for deletion, which would be appropriate due to lack of substantial content included or available, if there were not an alternative to deletion. I have developed content at Brown County, Minnesota and at List of lakes of Minnesota. The reader is better served by being directed to either. --Doncram (talk) 02:29, 4 January 2020 (UTC)as an experienced editor you know you cannot vote twice. Your AfD nomination and many many comments make your position clear. In addition you placed this out of order. In any event we all only get one !vote. Lightburst (talk) 04:28, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If the !vote is duplicated, strike it. But there's no need to strike the rationale, which is a stand alone comment. ——SN 54129 10:58, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't understand how the !vote was placed "out of order". At the time it was made, it was the lowest comment in the thread [73] Nil Einne (talk) 13:05, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I am a strong advocate for keeping articles of geographical features that can be described meaningfully in more than a few sentences, and many articles of Minnesotan lakes aren't even at that level. No need to redirect or merge. Ambrosiawater (talk) 03:02, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- I think there is broad consensus, as documented in GEOLAND, that we should keep articles of geographical features that can be described meaningfully in more than a few sentences. The question is: can this lake be described meaningfully in more than a few sentences? I have yet to see more than a few sentences written about this lake anywhere. Have you seen more than a few sentences written about this lake anywhere? If so, can you post the link? Thank you. – Levivich 04:24, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich: It can of the nominator will stop diminishing the article. I have asked the editor on talk pages, at ANI and here to stop filleting the article. Several editors are working on establishing notability. It is bad form for this nominator to continue to erase the article. Also bad form to !vote twice. I am putting a diff there in case the erasure extends to the AfD. Lightburst (talk) 05:29, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lightburst, the "pre-fillet" version is barely more than 100 words. I've literally not seen the article, or any source, exceed a few sentences, combined. Look, it is an indisputable fact that everything we have to say about this lake can be said in either the list of lakes, or in the county article. There is no WP:PAGESIZE concern here. So the only question is: do we have a stand-alone page about the lake, or just include the lake in the list of lakes or in the county article? I'm not seeing any reason for why we should have a stand-alone page about this lake, whereas I do see a good reason for including it on the list of lakes (the reason being that it gives the reader context for the information about this lake). – Levivich 05:40, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich: you must see that we need to respect the AfD process and the good faith attempts of editors to build. The nominator should take a step back as I have tried to do. This seems to be a no-consensus AfD at the moment. And we are only here because the nominator refused to respect the result of the AfD. Lightburst (talk) 05:45, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Lightburst: I am steadfastly opposed to commenting on AfD nominators' conduct in an AfD. This page should only be used for discussing the topic–not the state of the article, not the nominator, not the nomination statement, but only the topic and whether the topic should have a stand-alone page. There's a related ANI thread where editor conduct is being discussed, and editors who want to discuss that can do so over there. There is no need to make editors who want to discuss whether the topic should have a stand-alone page have to read extra text about irrelevant side-issues. I could go blank the article and replace it with "ha ha f u everybody" and it still wouldn't be relevant to whether or not the topic should have a stand-alone page. – Levivich 06:01, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I added lakes to the Brown County template. Lightburst (talk) 04:27, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - passes WP:NFEAT: On the other hand, sources that describe the subject instead of simply mentioning it do establish notability. In addition to the cited sources in the article, see [74] - important enough for MEQB Minnesota Environmental Quality Board to monitor & stock its fish populations, and [75] - for its historic significance, the preservation of its description in "Minnesota geographic names; their origin and historic significance". ~~this paper: Decrepitation of sphalerite from Bachelor Lake. Progress Report - Temperature-Pressure Research of Hydrothermal Mineral Deposits 2(7): 132, 1950.~~ WP:V is established, and enough sources to establish notability (not fame or popularity) for inclusion as a geographical feature. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 03:45, 5 January 2020 (UTC) ^{Added 2 sources, struck one. 13:56, 5 January 2020 (UTC)}[reply]
- The more research, the more sources I find - Minnesota DNR classifies it as "Natural Environment (NE)—This classification is intended for those waters needing a significant amount of protection because of their unique natural characteristics or their unsuitability for development and sustained recreational use." NE has the "most restrictive development standards." ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:08, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible I misread what came up in the search - human err - so until I find what I actually saw, (or think I saw), I have stricken the source. The rest remains because it still passes as a geograhic feature for inclusion. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:39, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, right. No offense, Atsme, but the more manufactured arguments I see here, the more I lose respect for ... the process or something. I simply do not believe that report is about this Bachelor Lake, rather than the other Minnesota one, the one in Michigan, the one in Florida, the one in Quebec, or any of probably dozens elsewhere. Even if it were about decrepitation of sphalerite in this Bachelor Lake, I doubt there is substantial content about this Bachelor Lake relevant to adding to this article. Please do go ahead and pay $29.95 to get a copy of the report in PDF file, and share a copy to me, and I promise to be fair in commenting about its content. Or if you distrust me because I happen to be critical of other padding that has been added to the article in a biased fashion, then share to someone we could mutually agree is trustworthy in evaluating it. Otherwise, no dice. --Doncram (talk) 05:27, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, sphalerite is found in multiple locations in Michigan per this source but, based on my searching, not in Minnesota. (There is a piece of sphalerite in a University of Minnesota collection, but that was collected in Colorado.) So I think the Bachelor Lake in Michigan is more likely. --Doncram (talk) 05:38, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have access to the article, but absent that I would guess it is Quebec. See Bachelor Lake and Geology for Investors Staff (August 18, 2014). "Metanor Resources Going Deeper at Bachelor Lake Mine". Geology for Investors. Retrieved January 3, 2020. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:09, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My bad - it was past my bedtime, I was on the iPad (which can be hard on the eyes) and it appears I inadvertently conflated info. I struck that one source, and added 3 more that establish V and N. It's not a lake that is famous for recreation, etc. but it is an important one in the watershed; therefore it is being monitored and protected. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:17, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep there is too much peripheral information in this thread. The focus should just be assessing the status of the article in comparison to notability guidelines. I feel this does meet the guidelines for named geographical features. Behindthekeys (talk) 19:45, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

AFD ethics and this discussion

A question of ethics and AFD

User: Doncram and User: CaroleHenson I write to STOP your conduct and make an accusation. I had hoped that we could work through this in WP:AGF. But your conduct requires a response.

We have a twice pending AFD. Some of the editors who want to delete or merge this article have removed a lot of text and references. For a lot of claimed reasons.

In a score of edits you have systematically gutted both the content and the cited sources of the article. While some of these could fairly be said to be arguable at the Talk:Bachelor Lake (Brown County, Minnesota) article talk page – where they can and should be discussed – and I will join the discussion there.

But the whole pattern and timing suggests you are going beyond that.

Here are some of the pertinent edits I am talking about. The reader needs to look at their content:

   High water mark

No. 1
No. 2
here No. 3 including this edit summary: “Please stop destroying the article so that it suits your desire to delete. Several editors are building and you are undoing their work. Wait until the AfD ends. Your opinion is one, and you are undoing the work of several.”

   Low water mark

here No. 4 and

   Present state

here No. 5~~here No. 5~~

You are creating a self fulfilling prophecy to assure a result at this AFD.

Removing the sources from the article does not make them cease to exist. To the extent that WP: Notability is involved in your claims at AFD, you are simply trying to obscure the facts. See WP:Before, which mandates looking at notability in the broadest sense.

All of these books cite to this Lake.

Fritsche, Louis Albert (December 31, 1916). History of Brown County, Minnesota: Its People, Industries and Institutions. Vol. I. Indianapolis, Indiana: B.F. Bowen & Co. p. 75.
United States Geological Survey. Branch of Geographic Names. Minnesota Geographic Names Information System: Alphabetical List. p. 12.
Upham, Warren (May 1, 2001). Minnesota Place Names: A Geographical Encyclopedia. St. Paul, Minnensota. p. 76. ISBN 9780873513968.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
Upham, Warren (1920). Minnesota Geographic Names: Their Origin and Historic Significance. St. Paul, Minnesota: Minnesota Historical Society. p. 72.
Winchel, N.H.; Upham, Warren (1884). Geology of Minnesota. Vol. 1. John Smith and Harrison State Printers, Pioneer Press Company, Printers. p. 560. Retrieved 9 December 2019.

I understand that WP:ANI has parallel matters. I have avoided going there.

The fate of the article should be fairly evaluated. And not based on the Bowdlerized version the deletionists now proffer.

The nominator’s opinion has been made clear by many comments, and the nomination. Now it is up to the community to evaluate and the nominator should take a step back. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:54, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here this comment was removed. I want it here. It pertains to this AFD. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:12, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, but the entire long passage above was posted to Talk:Bachelor Lake (Brown County, Minnesota), and I gave substantial reply there about AFD ethics in general and in this specific AFD. I would like for User:7&6=thirteen to reply back. At this point there are multiple forums open, including an unclosed wp:ANI section and the article's Talk page. Perhaps this section and replies about AFD behavior belong, instead, on the Talk page of this AFD (Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Bachelor Lake (Brown County, Minnesota)? If someone can step in to perform traffic control, perhaps this and my substantial reply should be moved to there. --Doncram (talk) 15:51, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree, we do not remove another editor's comments. Your actions precipitated this section. Good that the participants and the XfD closer see. Perhaps it may be hatted. You are also free to discus it on the talk page. Lightburst (talk) 15:56, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The conduct of the AFD participants and their vandalization/Bowdlerization/destruction/rewrite (if we disregard the pattern and timing and WP:AGF) of the article (and what the article is and should be) are pertinent and fair game on this page. I am willing to discuss the merits of edits on the article talk page. But rigging the system needs to be called out here. Do not remove my comments. We all know better. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:58, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am gobsmacked that the thoughtful edits I made last night to made the article BETTER were reverted. If you look at the history of the edits, the edits corrected the following:

Unreliable sources, like a real estate marketing page with no indication of the source of the material
Using multiple editions, some 100 years old when one recent version works
Failed verification

If you looked, too, you would notice that I also added content. I stand by my edits. My intent was NOT to gut the article, it was put it in the best state of what a "keep" would look like. Unlike a lot of people here, I don't really care which way it turns out. But I believe that the content should follow WP guidelines.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:07, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment No disrespect was intended. Sorry to add to your distress.

Your edit would be

Low water mark

here No. 4 and

My revert was this.

Present state

here No. 5~~here No. 5~~

This is not the

High water mark

No. 1

The readers can make their own comparison.

Getting rid of the books shows the lack of historical perspective.

Whether your "low water" or my "high water" or "present state" edits has nothing to do with whether there is (or could be – see WP:Before – enough to keep the article. This is not a zero sum game where we have to declare winners and losers. The article should be kept on its merits. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:57, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

LOLOLOL "Historical perspective"??? Just because they're old books doesn't mean this is a historical place, and there are not books rather duplicates of the same less-than-a-sentence on being named for a bachelor. The only difference between these versions is how much fluff there is, not what we know about the lake, or what the reader can gain beyond what can go in the main table (which is allowed to have info and linked sources beyond the data). Reywas92^Talk 01:46, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota, where all of the reliably sourced information we have about it will be quite at home. Saying WP is a gazetteer doesn't mean every named object needs its own article as per GEOLAND. In this case, it's not even necessary to get into whether or not it's notable (which is not to say I think it's notable) because per WP:NOPAGE if we don't have much information about it and there's another article that can host it, that's where it should be even if it's notable. People are scraping every possible detail from various databases and primary sources. That's a sign that there shouldn't be a stand-alone article. Also, I'm adding my comment at the bottom of the thread because this is an AfD. If this section is separate from the AfD, move it to the talk page. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 14:34, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment – I think at this point everyone is focusing in on the question of whether information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist per GEOLAND. Here is all the information that I think we know to exist about Bachelor Lake in Brown County, Minnesota:
1. Its name
2. Its location
3. Its area
4. Its elevation
5. Its legal status (protected)

Is there any more? I'm sticking with my merge !vote barring evidence that this list can significantly expand, because those five bits of data would be better-placed for our readers on the list of lakes rather than in a stand-alone page. – Levivich 01:42, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Levivich - there is more that has been sourced, and more sources out there that are probably available from government libraries regarding its importance as an aquatic ecosystem. Here is another I just found: [76] - NPS Survey Results for Cottonwood River Watershed Lakes, and Bachelor Lake is one of 5 lakes listed as threatened. The study explains more. It was also one of four lakes involved in a reclamation project by the Minnesota DNR section of fisheries some years ago, and MEQB Minnesota Environmental Quality Board has monitored fish stocks. It satisfies V and N, and has important environmental significance. Also see the 3 different sources I added regarding the classification of the lake as NE - a protected lake. Granted, it is not some gigantic man-made recreational lake, but it doesn't need to be for inclusion per Geo feature. It is an aquatic ecosystem in a watershed, and it is significant enough to be protected. [77], [78]. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:46, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Atsme, satisfies V, yes, but I don't see N. Assuming arguendo the survey is a GNG source, it supports the notability of Cottonwood River, but not Bachelor Lake–not based on showing it on a map and listing it on one table, out of a 123-page report. Aside from GNG, as far as GEOLAND, I'm persuaded that if all the information can be listed in a row on the table, then it's not "information beyond statistics and coordinates" – that its status is "threatened" (which I think is literally the single fact that the NPS report can be used for) might add a #6 to my list above, but it's still in my eyes a "statistic". Agree to disagree on this one? PS. Did you hear about the wife who finally got fed up with her husband and told him to go jump in a lake? Guess which lake he picked. That's why there are so many lakes named "Bachelor Lake". :-D – Levivich 06:49, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Technical relist because Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2020 January 8 decided to undo the previous non-admin closure. This discussion can be immediately reclosed and does not need to run for another week.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 11:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Having looked at the matter in detail, here's my own view. Deletion is not appropriate as this is a named natural feature per WP:GEOLAND and we have more information than general statistics – details of its naming, its geology, its water quality, its protected status and so on. The alternate view that the topic should be merged into list of lakes of Minnesota does not seem sensible for a number of reasons:

Minnesota has over 11,000 lakes and so the list is correspondingly large and unwieldy. It is especially difficult to navigate and read in the mobile view or using the app; I've tried. But most of our readers use that mode to access Wikipedia. And now we increasingly have people using smart speakers or voice assistants and huge lists are quite impractical for those.
The page in question already has about as many references as the entire list. But lists are increasingly expected to have sources for each entry, especially if the entries are not supported by separate pages. Putting the sources, citations and ancillary details into footnotes will be impractical for a list of this size – the foot is too far from the head because the body is so long.
In due course, we can expect to add an image of the place. Again, this will work better on a separate page, where it can be displayed at a good size, rather then being one amongst thousands of thumbnails.
The list is formatted as a table but this is a Procrustean bed – forcing all the entries into a uniform format. This encourages improper synthesis and OR – extrapolating tenous references to try to fill the cells. And it forces interesting and idiosyncratic details to be suppressed when they do not conform. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and its readers expect articles not spreadsheets. Wikidata is the place for large volumes of structured data and so we should leave that aspect to them.
The information currently exists in article format and there are several editors interested in polishing this. Changing the format would be additional work for no benefit. If it works, don't fix it.

Andrew🐉(talk) 11:53, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Sneaking in while I can before this gets closed again. A named natural feature with more information than just statistical listings, easily passes WP:GEOLAND thanks to the WP:HEY efforts. SportingFlyer T·C 12:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect Jesus Christ, how can anyone think Andrew Davidson closing this AFD as "keep" was appropriate or think HEY applies in a case where the AFD is currently 10 times the length of the article, of which apparently around half the !votes are "keep" but none of them have managed to expand the article beyond six sentences (the seventh sentence was textbook OR that I have now removed). The lake's being a "protected water" doesn't prove notability because the cited source lists a whole bunch of similarly classified lakes that it dubs "Unnamed", nor does being the tenth-largest lake in an area that has only 19 km² of water. All of the information that is currently in this article -- and apparently all that could or ever will, given the amount of enthusiasm among the "keep" !voters here -- would be more readable and useful if included in a sortable table. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GEOLAND. Rlendog (talk) 15:28, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Keeping based on the rationale presented by Mark_viking. Feel free to improve. Thanks everyone for contributing and assuming good faith! Missvain (talk) 15:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Applied Logic Corporation

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Old declined prod. No evidence this company passes WP:GNG/WP:NCOMPANY. Few mentions in passing/old press releases and their rewrites along the 'business as usual' lines. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:31, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:31, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Technology-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 12:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 12:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, I just added a couple of references in scholarly books plus extra material. Peter Flass (talk) 23:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Peter, from what I see here you've added 2 refs: [79]. And the only time it mentions the company is in the section "NEW DECUS MEMBERS". This is not even a mention in passing, but the worst possible google hit (that one or two employees of that company joined that mailing list or whatever that DECUS was). This is not helpful. Second is a bit better ([80]), as in, it's a full sentence... but it is still a far cry from requirement of in-depth coverage. One sentence is hardy anywhere close.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:44, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – kind of stubby, but an important early computing company. Dicklyon (talk) 02:35, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:ITSIMPORTANT is right there on the list of bad AfD arguments. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Peter Flass' good faith attempts at adding scholarly journal references are useful, but scholarly journal references do not establish notability unless they are an at length and in-depth article about this company to write more than a stub- or start-class article, per WP:CORPDEPTH and WP:SIGCOV. No evidence notability is met here. Doug Mehus T·C 03:49, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Concur. The one-sentence mentions that a group at this company developed some novel tech or such is not sufficient to make the company notable, plus the focus of those sentences is about a group, not company, so WP:NOTINHERITED too. That said, does anyone has access to [81]? There is something about the company there, but I can't tell through the snippet view if it's a two sentence PR blurb or an actual in-depth analysis of sorts. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Per Dicklyon ... (I think it was me who declined the prod).Djm-leighpark (talk) 08:15, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:KEEPPER for a bad argument... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:00, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep The company is defunct since 1975. I assume there are offline sources from the 60s and 70s. I found some short news in the Computerworld magazine, so there are at least some RS even for the lazy kids of the internet age. Pavlor (talk) 09:24, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Pavlor, could you link said Computerworld issue/page? It has not been added to the article and my search fails to find anything substantial. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:49, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 19:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Pavlor: We have to prove those offline sources exist. So, I look at it, how substantive is this article? Per the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James H. Stuart, a result of "delete" should be without prejudice to someone, presumably in California or wherever this company was based, going to their local library and looking up on microfilm/microfiche for sources and trying again. Failing that, a draftification or userification potentially could be a reasonable result; however, again, there's nothing in this article intellectually creative that's worthy of preserving attribution history here. Doug Mehus T·C 20:50, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Until someone goes to that library (I can´t as I´m on the other side of the Ocean), I assume there are sources (the few I saw indicate this is really plausible). As there is no harm in keeping this article, keep is my default stance. Pavlor (talk) 08:35, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES is not a good argument. The responsibility to go the library lies no the article's creator or those wanting to keep it, per WP:V. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:44, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep (edit conflict)Company meets our notability requirement WP:BARE. Pre-internet company so sources were hard to come by, however there is Computerworld magazine and some book entries. And notability is not temporary. Wm335td (talk) 20:55, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Please explain how this meets notability, so far you offered just an assertion.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:49, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Closing admin is reminded that WP:NOTAVOTE, given that effectively all keep but the first one arguments so far seem to be taken straight from Wikipedia:Arguments to make in deletion discussions. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:44, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Thoe company is known for its timesharing systems and its automated theorem provers. In the timesharing domain, Auerbach's guide to timesharing, p. 68-69 has about a page on the company and its timesharing services as well as mentions throught the book. Physics Today, SHOPPING FOR A TIME-SHARING SERVICE, p.42-43 also displays them as one of the major timesharing services. In the theorem proving field, [82] by Mackenzie has a few paragraphs about the SAM series of provers and notes the "SAM's lemma" was "was widely hailed as the first contribution of automated reasoning systems to mathematics." A Short Survey of Automated Reasoning (a few paragraphs) noted that the SAM series was one of the first interactive theorem provers and and had influence on subseequent theorem provers. An SEC newsletter p.2 from the time has some basics on the company financials and services. There was one other source, the book "Mathematical Software" by John R Rice, 1971, that looks like it may have some more coverage, but I don't have access. All the sources I had access to demonstrate notability and impact of the company, and I think add up to modest but sufficient notability to have an article per WP:GNG. Research was a part of this company's impact and independent sources noting that are excellent and on target for notability; in this I disagree with some of the above editors dismissive attitudes towards scholarly publications. The article itself is a well-referenced stub and has no problems. A notable topic and an article with no major problems suggests keeping the article. --{{u|Mark viking}} {Talk} 14:06, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank's Mark, good stuff there and seems to have sorted Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process stuff that was going on. Re-enforce's my keep !vote above.Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per Mark Viking. Toughpigs (talk) 17:14, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to IBM Israel#Haifa Research Lab. The editors carrying out the merge need to be aware of the details in this discussion, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:41, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IBM Haifa Research Laboratory

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I prodded it with "No evidence this company passes WP:NCOMPANY/GNG. Could redirect to IBM research, through it's dubious this sub-lab is a likely searchable term." Prod was declined, an anon redirected it later, that was reverted. Time for an AfD discussion. What makes this research institute separately notable from its parent company (IBM Research)? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete very little independent coverage, could just be included on parent company's page. → Lil-℧niquԐ 1 - (Talk) - 12:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge. But we need to see a serious merge proposal and discussion first. The previous so-called merge that I reverted was just a delete, with the merge target article getting smaller when 6 other articles were deleted. This was just wrong. If we don't have a sensible merge plan for the more minor sites, keep them. For the major sites like Almaden and Zurich, just keep. Dicklyon (talk) 02:33, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And what is your keep rationale outside 'previous merge had none', which is hardly a valid one...? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:35, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merge the lead content into IBM_Israel#Haifa_Research_Lab, where the lab is discussed in a broader coontext. I wasn't able to find in depth independent sources sufficient for WP:GNG about this lab in particular, but basic facts about the lab--it exists and works in fields X, Y, and Z, etc., are verifable. The history of the lab is already discussed extensively in History of IBM research in Israel (also with deficient sourcing), so just the lead summary needs to be merged. For verifiable content, an alternative to deletion, such as a merge, is preferred per our policy WP:ATD. --{{u|Mark viking}} {Talk} 11:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per above editor analysis. 2604:2000:E010:1100:6CE7:D625:5B30:1B91 (talk) 08:55, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Sorry for the erroneous third relist. The "keep" opinions do not address the arguments for deletion; they do not discuss why this article is notable or should otherwise be kept. Sandstein 10:16, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IBM Research – Africa

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I prodded it with "No evidence this company passes WP:NCOMPANY/GNG. Could redirect to IBM research, through it's dubious this sub-lab is a likely searchable term." Prod was declined, an anon redirected it later, that was reverted. Time for an AfD discussion. What makes this research institute separately notable from its parent company (IBM Research)? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:12, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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What is going on here, User:Piotrus? You nominated this article for deletion like a week ago, I responded. No "prod was declined". Where did that page go? Please resurrect it so that others know that all that legitimately happened.

Now you are nominating it over all again like it is your first time and I never did. This isn't right. I am going to leave this same message at the other two pages where you are doing the identical thing. Yours, 11:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

My apologies. I checked that page, then the auto-generated notice that was left on my Talk page on December 30, 2019, which indicated an objection could be left in the form of an Edit Summary, which I did: "There is just a date and location for this lab at the IBM Research page. There is relevant cited content here. The page is not simply "clutter" to be deleted." Without consensus you then merged the article into IBM Research, which was reverted by another editor, not at all an anonymous user, it was, User:Dicklyon, who has been with the encyclopedia since 2006 and has over 100,000 edits. My original comment stands on its merits. Don't pretend none of this is happening. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 12:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:Wikiuser100 You seem not to be familiar with WP:DELETION. Prior proposal was WP:PROD, which you challenged, as was your right. I read your edit summary, found it lacking, hence the next step is a discussion at a wider forum (i.e. here). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:39, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not. But that's not what you did, User:Piotrus. Stop being disingenuous - or outright dishonest. You didn't just "go to discussion", as you falsely claim above, you pretended to merge the articles (dishonestly using that term in your edit summaries at those pages), but did not do that. You blanked them, then incorporated absolutely none of their contents at the main IBM Research page. It's all there in the page histories, and confirmed by User:Dicklyon in his post below. In fact, there was less total at the IBM research (where you even deleted helpful preexisting headings there) then before your phony "merges". Which were then reverted, whereupon you have begun a new round of mongering for deletion. You in fact are being completely dishonest here, and must cease it. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 15:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did not such thing. You are apparently also not familiar with the article's history tab, as you confuse actions by some anonymous editor with my actions. Further, you are also not familiar with WP:NPA, since accusing others of dishonesty and such is not nice, and can lead to sanctions. Please learn how the system works before attacking others. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:03, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete very little independent coverage, could just be included on parent company's page. → Lil-℧niquԐ 1 - (Talk) - 12:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Or whatever the proper terminology is. There is valid content at the page. Editor time can be better spent cleaning up gop at "In popular culture" sections or other valuable tasks here than this. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 15:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a valid AfD rationale. AFD WP:NOTAVOTE. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:36, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge. But we need to see a serious merge proposal and discussion first. The previous so-called merge that I reverted was just a delete, with the merge target article getting smaller when 6 other articles were deleted. This was just wrong. If we don't have a sensible merge plan for the more minor sites, keep them. For the major sites like Almaden and Zurich, just keep. Dicklyon (talk) 02:33, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And what is your keep rationale outside 'previous merge had no rationale', which is hardly a valid one...? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:36, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am not seeking to preempt User:Dicklyon's response here, but users please see my response inserted above to dissimulation from User:Poitrus also inserted above. If I knew how to hyperlink you directly to it, I would. It's hard left, separated by carriage returns. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 15:51, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 19:57, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

`

No indication of independent notability and does not meet NCORP. At minimum should be redirected if not deleted. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:38, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete (1st choice) per Barkeep as there's nothing here to merge, really, and no history to keep/Merge or Redirect (2nd choice), as applicable, per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/IBM Research – Brazil. Doug Mehus T·C 23:17, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Tone 22:31, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IBM Austin Research Laboratory

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I prodded it with "No evidence this company passes WP:NCOMPANY/GNG. Could redirect to IBM research, through it's dubious this sub-lab is a likely searchable term." Prod was declined, an anon redirected it later, that was reverted. Time for an AfD discussion. What makes this research institute separately notable from its parent company (IBM Research)? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete very little independent coverage, could just be included on parent company's page. → Lil-℧niquԐ 1 - (Talk) - 12:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge. But we need to see a serious merge proposal and discussion first. The previous so-called merge that I reverted was just a delete, with the merge target article getting smaller when 6 other articles were deleted. This was just wrong. If we don't have a sensible merge plan for the more minor sites, keep them. For the major sites like Almaden and Zurich, just keep. Dicklyon (talk) 02:32, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Only needs glancing mention at IBM Research if at all. 45.19.55.132 (talk) 03:30, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Doesn't appear to be independently notable. the suggestion of redirect and perhaps a merge based on secondary sourcing (which appears to be lacking in the current article) is reasonable, however. Waggie (talk) 01:00, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There is nothing in reliable sources to suggest that this particular location/unit has any standalone notability. --Kinu ^t/_c 23:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete . Its clearly not notable on its own. I'd go with merge, but there hardly seems to be enough even for that. --Adamant1 (talk) 04:29, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to IBM Research. Sandstein 11:56, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IBM Research – Australia

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I prodded it with "No evidence this company passes WP:NCOMPANY/GNG. Could redirect to IBM research, through it's dubious this sub-lab is a likely searchable term." Prod was declined, an anon redirected it later, that was reverted. Time for an AfD discussion. What makes this research institute separately notable from its parent company (IBM Research)? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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What is going on here, User:Piotrus? You nominated this article for deletion like a week ago, I responded. No "prod was declined". Where did that page go? Please resurrect it so that others know that all that legitimately happened.

Now you are nominating it over all again like it is your first time and I never did. This isn't right. I am going to leave this same message at the other two pages where you are doing the identical thing. Yours, 11:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

My apologies. I checked that page, then the auto-generated notice that was left on my Talk page on December 30, 2019, which indicated an objection could be left in the form of an Edit Summary, which I did: "There is just a date and location for this lab at the IBM Research page. There is relevant cited content here. The page is not simply "clutter" to be deleted." Without consensus you then merged the article into IBM Research, which was reverted by another editor, not at all an anonymous user, it was, User:Dicklyon, who has been with the encyclopedia since 2006 and has over 100,000 edits. My original comment stands on its merits. Don't pretend none of this is happening. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 12:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete very little independent coverage, could just be included on parent company's page. → Lil-℧niquԐ 1 - (Talk) - 12:40, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to IBM Research - I don't understand any of the blurb at the top, but this is an easy merge as an alternative to deletion. Some coverage but not enough for its own Australian page - there's plenty of room to put the current text on the main page. Bookscale (talk) 12:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Or whatever the proper terminology is. There is valid content at the page. Editor time can be better spent cleaning up gop at "In popular culture" sections or other valuable tasks here than this. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 15:03, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to IBM Research . Content is so brief. The third reference is broke. The fourth and only independant reference is from 2011. Teraplane (talk) 00:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge. But we need to see a serious merge proposal and discussion first. The previous so-called merge that I reverted was just a delete, with the merge target article getting smaller when 6 other articles were deleted. This was just wrong. If we don't have a sensible merge plan for the more minor sites, keep them. For the major sites like Almaden and Zurich, just keep. Dicklyon (talk) 02:32, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or Merge to IBM Research above. Could also merge or redirect to IBM Research#Australia. Doug Mehus T·C 03:46, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to IBM Research. Suggesting merge into IBM Research. Thanks everyone for your participation and assuming good faith! Missvain (talk) 16:31, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IBM Research – Brazil

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I prodded it with "No evidence this company passes WP:NCOMPANY/GNG. Could redirect to IBM research, through it's dubious this sub-lab is a likely searchable term." Prod was declined, an anon redirected it later, that was reverted. Time for an AfD discussion. What makes this research institute separately notable from its parent company (IBM Research)? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:10, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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What is going on here, User:Piotrus? You nominated this article for deletion like a week ago, I responded. No "prod was declined". Where did that page go? Please resurrect it so that others know that all that legitimately happened.

Now you are nominating it over all again like it is your first time and I never did. This isn't right. I am going to leave this same message at the other two pages where you are doing the identical thing. Yours, 11:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

My apologies. I checked that page, then the auto-generated notice that was left on my Talk page on December 30, 2019, which indicated an objection could be left in the form of an Edit Summary, which I did: "There is just a date and location for this lab at the IBM Research page. There is relevant cited content here. The page is not simply "clutter" to be deleted." Without consensus you then merged the article into IBM Research, which was reverted by another editor, not at all an anonymous user, it was, User:Dicklyon, who has been with the encyclopedia since 2006 and has over 100,000 edits. My original comment stands on its merits. Don't pretend none of this is happening. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 12:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete very little independent coverage, could just be included on parent company's page. → Lil-℧niquԐ 1 - (Talk) - 12:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Or whatever the proper terminology is. There is valid content at the page. Editor time can be better spent cleaning up gop at "In popular culture" sections or other valuable tasks here than this. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge. But we need to see a serious merge proposal and discussion first. The previous so-called merge that I reverted was just a delete, with the merge target article getting smaller when 6 other articles were deleted. This was just wrong. If we don't have a sensible merge plan for the more minor sites, keep them. For the major sites like Almaden and Zurich, just keep. Dicklyon (talk) 02:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or, 2nd choice, Merge per Dicklyon above. Doug Mehus T·C 03:44, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Merge t0 IBM Research as a sub-heading PenulisHantu (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. No consensus after 3 relists as to whether the sources provided are sufficient to support a claim of notability. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:02, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RGraph

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We have a disagreement over whether this meets WP:NSOFTWARE. IMHO the coverage is insufficient: some mentions in passing and few how-to manuals both on the web and in print, but I am not seeing a single in-depth, reliable review. There is no discussion of the importance of this software, its history or such, just a few paragraphs here or there about how to code with it, effectively a manual. No awards, either. Does it merit a stand alone article on English Wikipedia or not? Thoughts appreciated. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:07, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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My point of view: I consider this generally meets WP:NSOFTWARE. Although the article may not be ideal, at least remembering about WP:CONTN a quick search beyond shows the subject looks not too famous but notable according to the known criteria. But it is all IMHO, of course, and I cannot insist as a not yet too experienced editor (always glad to learn, willing to improve everytime), and unfortunately I have little time to look deeper now. Let's find the truth together. Appreciate the discussion and constructive opinions. Thanks Piotr for starting this. Avbgok (talk) 11:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dear User:Avbgok, we need to be specific. If you think this meets NSOFT, can you tell us which criteria from Wikipedia:Notability_(software)#Inclusion do you think it meets, and why? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:43, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Relisting comment: Relisting one more time to illicit more participation. Thanks everyone for your participation and assuming good faith!
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Delete. It would be up to the "keep" side to argue which sources make this pass WP:N, and they have not done so. Sandstein 12:00, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. As a response to User:Piotrus about WP:NSOFTWARE, I quote: It is the subject of multiple printed third-party manuals, instruction books, or reliable reviews, written by independent authors and published by independent publishers. Each of the two book sources provided has several pages of coverage, fulfilling that criterion.

@User:Sandstein: Please see WP:NOTCOMPULSORY. It is not the job of other editors to make the case in either direction in such a discussion, but rather the duty of all participants to do their own due diligence. Modernponderer (talk) 21:09, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Modernponderer: Several pages in a book is not the same as being the subject of the book, which is what the quoted policy implies is preferable. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 21:14, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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@User:Piotrus: And yet manuals are undoubtedly shorter than books on average, but that statement seems to weigh them equally... Given that that page is not policy (as you incorrectly described it as) but only an essay, we shouldn't be paying much if any attention to the precise wording. Modernponderer (talk) 23:02, 31 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Modernponderer: I am not saying those sources should be dismissed, but I think they are not sufficient. Let's see how others will judge them. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:09, 1 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 16:51, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bruna (company)

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Unreferenced claim of having 375 shops is not an official sufficient criteria for WP:NCOMPANY/WP:GNG, but I guess it does merit a wider discussion. Can anyone find any sufficient, in-depth coverage of this company or such? BEFORE shows some mentions in Dutch but google translate suggests they are mentions in passing/press releases. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:50, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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This is a plain campaign to remove a high street book chain from Wikipedia. First an speedy deletion request (denied), than a prod attempt (removed by me) and now an AfD. Why is a chain with 375 book stores not E? Are you using AfD to get the article improved? The Banner talk 10:37, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Size is not a major factor in determining notability; if you disagree take this to WP:NCOMPANY. At present, as stated, this article doesn't have much going for it. Having a bunch of outlets (and we are still missing an independent verification of this claim) is not sufficient to make a company notable. PS. Please read WP:NOTYELLOWPAGES as well. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:37, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If it is to be preserved we need some independent references. Given the sort of operation it is maybe not in great depth, but I'd like to see some external coverage. Rathfelder (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Something like: Meer ruimte voor winkelbeleving, Bruna en AKO-moederbedrijf Audax gaan samen verder, Bruna overgenomen door moederbedrijf van concurrent AKO, Bruna wil meer brunaformule zien, Het nieuwe winkelen ([83], [84]), Aandeelhouders PostNL en ING schieten Bruna te hulp. Yes, all in Dutch. But that is not unlikely with a Dutch book chain... The Banner talk 23:34, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - To speed things up, can you tell us which of those contain in-depth coverage, i.e. at least a paragraph (made out of at least several sentences), and not mentions in passing? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:41, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No notability here, fails on referencing too. The current (one) reference looks to be a primary source, possibly a white page kind of entry—can't tell for sure, as it's in a foreign language. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 12:48, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- There is no need for English languages sources here, as foreign sources are allowed. Replaced the source by an independent source. And added some other sources. The Banner talk 13:02, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yeah...no. A couple of press releases about the take-over/merge that both mainly focus on the parent company Audax (does it have an article?) and the industry as a whole don't really qualify for significant coverage. The financial report article showing the horrible state of the subject's financials verifies the company's existence, but not any notability; the obituary article about Henk Bruna does mention the company briefly, but not notably, and perhaps belongs at his article. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 14:56, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - Did you look at the sources? The Banner talk 15:58, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Dutch is my native tongue, therefor I've little trouble reading the sources. The sources are of high quality. Meer ruimte voor winkelbeleving is discussed the Bruna formula in depth. This is an article in a respectable journal, written by a lector. The highest academic rank at a Dutch University of Applied sciences. Bruna en AKO-moederbedrijf Audax gaan samen verder is written by Floor Bauma, a respectable journalist. The first three paragraphs discuss Bruna in depth. Bruna overgenomen door moederbedrijf van concurrent AKO isn't a press release but an in depth article in a respectable newspaper. Intro and the first three paragraphs discuss Bruna in depth. Bruna wil meer Brunaformule zien is an in depth article in a respectable newspaper, written by the respectable journalist Elisa Hermanides. 13 paragraphs discuss Bruna and their legal trouble. Het nieuwe winkelen is a book written by Cor Molenaar, a professor at the Erasmus University. 1.5 pages in this book are dedicated to Bruna. Aandeelhouders PostNL en ING schieten Bruna te hulp has four paragraphs discussing Bruna. Nu.nl is one of the largest Dutch media outlets. Neither of those sources are press releases. Honestly, calling the work of respectable newspapers and their journalists press releases without merit, is offensive.
To add more sources, Bruna wil 100 nieuwe winkels, ‘we zijn geen grijze muis meer’ written by Peet Vogels. The full article is about Bruna. Nu ook Bruna in zwaar weer in Algemeen Dagblad. Two paragraphs discussing Bruna. Written by the journalist Alexander Leeuw. Natuur12 (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Relisting comment: Relisting so reviewers can check out new sources added. Remember, English language sources are not required to pass inclusion guidelines. Thanks everyone for your participation and assuming good faith!
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 16:32, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the comments of Natuur12. That the evidence of notability is not easily-accessible to most English speakers does make life a bit harder, because I cannot personally read the sources and so have to depend on the representations made by those who can. But the detailed representations above describe exactly the sort of sources we'd demand. Further, although having multiple locations does not inherently support notability, it does suggest that we ought to think hard about notability -- because one of the things that tends to happen when a company has hundreds of locations is that reliable sources start writing about them in some depth. If our initial review doesn't show that to be happening here, then that's... kinda weird, and so we should just be really sure that the problem isn't on our end (for example, that the sources aren't just all in, uhh, Dutch.) TheOther Bob 17:37, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - assuming good faith, this appears to be a large retail chain that passes WP:NCORP. It's written in a neutral tone, and has some sources. Bearian (talk) 16:08, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This one is on the edge but in my opinion just about meets the criteria as per WP:NCORP/GNG. Most of the !votes to Keep above seem to miss the key points when testing for notability. The test is not merely for "high quality" sources or whether the sources are written by a "respectable journalist". The criteria for establishing notability for companies/organizations as per WP:NCORP is for multiple sources (at least two) of *significant* coverage with *in-depth* information on the company and (this bit is important!) containing *Independent Content* which is defined as follows: "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are *clearly* *attributable* to a source unaffiliated to the subject. In my opinion, the first reference discussing a conceptual model for Bruna meets the criteria. The second is based on an announcement and therefore fails WP:ORGIND. This third reference may not be a press release, but it is commentary on a press release and as such, none of the information on the company is Independent Content (clearly attributed etc) and fails WP:ORGIND. The fourth also fails since the information on the company is provided by information released by the company and quotations/interview with a director, Zeegers - therefore none of the information on the company is Independent Content, fails WP:ORGIND. There's an argument that the commentary on the legal troubles and subsequent appeal meets the criteria but in my opinion it doesn't. Also, doesn't matter a whit the "respectability" of journalists or newspapers once it is regarded as a reliable source. I was excited by the fifth (Book) reference but once you remove the information provided by the director Gelauff, there is nothing of significance remaining, fails WP:ORGIND. The sixth reference is entirely based on information provided by the company and fails WP:ORGIND. But there are a myriad of other sources such as Politics of Post Transformation, Franchising in the Economy 1978-1980, etc, which all have short but significant mentions of the company. This, coupled with the one good reference mentioned above, pushed it over the edge for me. HighKing⁺⁺ 13:28, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep quality sources exist. The Volkskrant and NRC Handelsblad are some of the best Dutch newspapers, and the company, in some form or other, (it's complicated) has been around since 1868. Vexations (talk) 14:43, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Appears to pass inclusion guidelines per rationale presented below. Thanks everyone for your participation and assuming good faith! Missvain (talk) 16:23, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jack Doohan (racing driver)

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This is not my area of expertise, but I am afraid this racing driver fails WP:NSPORTS because he has never participated in a fully professional championship. If I am wrong with my estimates what is fully professional and what is not, please let me know, I will be happy to withdraw. Ymblanter (talk) 08:25, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Oppose - F3 Asian, I don't know how fully professional you have to be but he already has a list of participation and with a parent of that stature how long do you think it will be before he does qualify ? Dave Rave (talk) 21:50, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Whilst it is true that Doohan has not yet participated in a fully professional championship (F3 Asian has a mix of professional and amateur drivers), he will be making his debut in the 2020 FIA Formula 3 Championship in March. This is a professional championship in which all other so-far-announced competitors have their own Wikipedia pages, some of which are of similar ages and have competed at a similar level of racing in the past (examples are Théo Pourchaire and Frederik Vesti). I don't believe it is worth deleting the page only to inevitably re-instate it in two months' time. Jestal50 (talk) 00:16, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hug^syrup 16:46, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep While you could argue for a case of WP:TOOSOON, the new season is only a few weeks away and will be part of an important championship which has coverage in Autosport and MotorSport Magazine amongst others. While notability is not inherited, the fact he has a well known racing father and is part of the Red Bull junior program will generate a lot of interest. As a current sportsman who races frequently and will continue to do so, I have no concerns that this WP:BLP will languish in the depths of WP and forgotten about like many others sadly. Mattg82 (talk) 17:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as per Mattg and Jesta150. The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:50, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - per Mattg and Jestal50. I think this is one where, in good faith, given the potential time until Doohan meets notability criteria, the article should be kept. Bookscale (talk) 10:41, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. While a good faith effort was made to create this article and demonstrate its notability, there is a consensus that it is not notable at this time. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:55, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On This Date In Hip-Hop

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I can't find much (if any) coverage of this website. Sources given in the article are all unreliable, self-published, or don't mention this site at all (like the Billboard one). Nothing on Google News, nothing among the 31 Google results[85] or the 91 for the abbreviation[86]. Fram (talk) 08:16, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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I'm fairly new in my page creation, I may have rushed through this process but here are more articles that are not self published. Do I add them here or to the actual page?

Comment: Add them on the actual page. TomCat4680 (talk) 08:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, i've added links. I have more iheart media links but i'm tired. I will add them in the AM

I've also removed some categorizations at the footer. Please advise on what else I can do to improve the page

Comment: I added a tag describing what the nominator means by the sourcing problems. Also please sign your name to your posts on this page with four tildes:~~~~ TomCat4680 (talk) 19:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok thatnks for your help. I will check out your describing tag QTeeLatinaGurl (talk) 20:37, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok as i understand you tag,I need to add sources that speak on/about the website. There are a couple interviews and an L.A. weekly article published that I will post shortly. I just need to locate them QTeeLatinaGurl (talk) 22:55, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: That sounds good. Also maybe cut back on the Twitter and Instagram sources, that's what the nominator means by self-published. TomCat4680 (talk) 01:20, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ok. I will pick the important ones. Thank you QTeeLatinaGurl (talk) 07:48, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Once the issues mentioned are fixed. TomCat4680 (talk) 00:16, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

hello, I took some time to remove instagram and twitter sources. I have a question, if i am detailing following, is it necessary to have cite to back that up? if not then i have more instagram and twitter links to delete. I have also swapped out some for actual news articles. I am awaiting interview links, I should have by Monday. thank you for your time and tips QTeeLatinaGurl (talk) 02:04, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Yes secondary and tertiary sources are always better than primary ones. TomCat4680 (talk) 19:11, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete No independent, secondary and in-depth industry news are available to verify it is notable. Not a sausage. The first 10 references don't mention any significant details about the company as a product, nor a notable website. They are name drops, who is doing what where, some biography details about 2-pac. The second 10 references are much the same. As a corporation it probably falls WP:NCORP or at the least WP:ORG, which fails both is major way. Where are the independent, secondary and in-depth industry source that tell me it is notable. 12 of the refs are instagram or youtube and are non-rs. If I reviewed this on NPP it would post it as G11 as an advertisement. If I had to copyedit I would remove large chunks of it for fails WP:NOTADVERTISING. scope_creep^Talk 13:26, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Being used as a source or breaking news doesn't make it notable unless it is reported on by a secondary source. scope_creep^Talk 13:28, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - I tried searching for references but didn't get anything which can be added. Ghits are mostly social media links. KartikeyaS343 (talk) 21:06, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Şehzade Mahmud (son of Suleiman I)

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Poorly sourced. The subject doesn't seem to be notable, and the only source that has been used in this article does not mention him as a son of Mahidevran Sultan, thus it possibly contains original research. Keivan.f^Talk 08:04, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete The article says more about the subjects mother than about him. Nothing even close to saying anything about him ever doing anything except dieing.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Voicing Johnpacklambert also per nom there isn’t any real evidence of WP:GNG being satisfied.Celestina007 (talk) 20:33, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. RL0919 (talk) 10:10, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fistful

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Fails WP:Disambiguation because these are all partial title matches. b uidhe 06:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. One near full title match (a piped link to fist) and a pile of WP:PTM/{{intitle}} matches don't make a DAB page. See MOS:DABNOENTRY and WP:PTM. A Google search for musicians/songs/albums/films as possible full-title matches with no existing redirect turned up only a WP:NN group called Fistful with no presence in English WP. If formatted as a list, the article would fail WP:LISTN. Narky Blert (talk) 13:57, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, WP:IAR "fistful of [x]" is a notable idiom and it's useful to track what creative titles include them, many of which are derived from one another.--Prisencolin (talk) 18:25, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. All of the entries are partial title matches (WP:PTM. Anyone wanting titles with "Fistful (of)" is better off using Search. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:58, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Doing a search like that brings up matches within articles as well so I'd disagree with your second point.--Prisencolin (talk) 18:16, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete we are not a search index and the article titles are all different WP:PTM. I fail to see how this would help our readers per WP:D Lightburst (talk) 22:34, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Natasha Larry

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Does not pass WP:AUTHOR. The subject has written several books but has not received sustained critical coverage in independent sources. The bio appears to be sourced to the dust jacket of one of her books. No prizes or distinctions, no noteworthy body of work. Mccapra (talk) 06:10, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete ran powerful searches on her name and the title of her apparantly only book, published back in 2007, but found nothing.NotButtigieg (talk) 11:35, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete not enough sources to pass the GNG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:52, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Perhaps a little WP:TOOSOON for the author. Missvain (talk) 02:28, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:48, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stephen Vaglica

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not yet notable. Relatively minor awards and recordings. Apparent written (and approved by AfC ) by paid editor ring. see WP:COIN#Fraudulent_AfCs DGG ( talk ) 06:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Insufficiently notable. Seems to be promoting himself in many places, which is perhaps putting folk off, resulting in sort of failure to launch scenario. Either that or it is very very early career, but certainly sufficiently notable to pass WP:MUSICBIO or even WP:BIO. scope_creep^Talk 21:21, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Per norm. Lapablo (talk) 09:00, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. SPA disregarded. Sandstein 21:11, 30 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Majalahti

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An IP user, 82.198.149.227, attempted to nominate this page for deletion on the following grounds: "Subject does not meet notability standards. Reads like a promo article." See [87]. I am not taking a position on this nomination; it's a procedural nomination only on my part. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 05:01, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep - Notability established through the multiple reliable sources, including Canadian Online Explorer. Concerns about "promotional" phrasing in the article are not a valid reason for AfD. GaryColemanFan (talk) 14:18, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
~~Delete~~ - Canadian Online Explorer, nor any of the blogs cited or the many links to the subject's own social media pages, count for notability. It appears that this page was created by the subject. The subject never competed for any relevant promotions. Never was entered in to the PWI Top 500 Wrestlers in the world. Never mentioned by Dave Meltzer in his figure four newsletter. Simply an unknown hack trying to use wikipedia as a launching pad which he should focus his efforts on his website and social media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.198.149.227 (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Online Explorer definitely demonstrates notability. Your voting rationale appears to demonstrate a vendetta against the article subject. Perhaps you should consider editing other articles instead. GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:26, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Online Explorer (a/k/a canoe.com) was merely the former web presence of a Canadian newspaper chain, which means all of its content was aggregated from that chain's real newspapers. So Canoe is a reliable and notability-assisting source, because it was real newspaper content — it's not necessarily enough all by itself if it's the only reliable source on offer, but it's not nothing. Bearcat (talk) 17:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Struck duplicate !vote above, only one allowed, and the nomination which contains the IP's deletion rationale is considered as their !vote, but feel free to comment all you'd like. See WP:AFDFORMAT for more information. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 05:43, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have never heard of the guy before receiving spam messages on facebook linking to this bloody page. No vendetta here just facts. He is not notable. Never in WWE. New Japan or other notable organisations. ~~DELETE! DELETE! DELETE!~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.198.149.227 (talk) 09:47, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Struck duplicate !vote above, only one allowed, but feel free to comment all you'd like. See WP:AFDFORMAT for more information. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 05:43, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Week keep. I remember him from his time with Smash. He never wrestled in WWE nor NJ, but it doesn't mean he isn't notable. Maybe, the problem is WP:PROMOTIONAL, but it's easy, rewrite the article. He appeared on SLAM Wrestling, CANOE, Eurosport... --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:36, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I edited the article. Included a new source and deleted some promotional material. Maybe the problem it's the same, we focus on sourced from USA, but no from Finland. He is in a band, also a movie about him won awards. His wedding was covered in Romania... BTW, I think the article should be renamed StarBuck (wrestler). --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:48, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Comment 82.198.149.227's entire edit history is on the article subject. Coupled with their behavior in this discussion, it's sounding like a case of WP:SPA. sixtynine ^{• whaddya want? •} 06:01, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Subject does not meet the threshold of notability for musical success, nor for professioanal wrestling. Wrestling as an occasional journeyman wrestler in high school gyms, in non televised matches, are not notable. The article was and remains largely sourced by his own website. The lone source of note is an article and interview with canoe.ca however the quotes and claims made boasting of wide spread success in the interview are not supported elsewhere and appear to be simply part of an "in character" thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wwefanboy68 (talk • contribs) 21:35, 27 January 2020 (UTC) — Wwefanboy68 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
Keep - Notability established by sources. Also fairly sure that User:Wwefanboy68 and 82.198.149.227 are the same person considering their shared vendetta against this article. The Ozzy Mandias (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The odds of an unrelated user just happening to register an account during the AfD and only caring about editing this one article are astronomical. I recommend ignoring the vote and blocking the IP and newly created account for a blatant use of sockpuppets to influence the AfD (or for clearly not being here to build an encyclopedia--either way works). GaryColemanFan (talk) 06:18, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. RL0919 (talk) 04:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

2019 Sheikh Kamal International Club Cup squads

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Not sure if this page satisfies WP:GNG. Anbans 585 (talk) 04:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - not be notable per WP:GNG (no coverage of the topic) or WP:NOTSTATS/WP:LISTCRUFT. We only keep squad lists for major international tournaments like the World Cup. Giant Snowman 16:33, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete What GS said! Govvy (talk) 12:30, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. No evidence of WP:LASTING coverage to achieve notability. Appears to be a briefly reported "water cooler" item per WP:EVENTCRIT point 4. RL0919 (talk) 04:40, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oriental Yeti

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Fails GNG due to lack of lasting notability. Coverage consists solely of unverified reports from 2010 with no follow-up beyond a single news cycle. –dlthewave ☎ 03:15, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nominator. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:21, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep It is a thing and we keep articles which meet out GNG. In regard to the nominator's rationale about continued coverage- notability is not temporary per WP:NTEMP The Guardian, Christian Science Monitor, Huff post, The Sunday Times, and New Indian Express Lightburst (talk) 03:27, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - WP:NTEMP is a bit of a red herring. Yes, notability is not temporary, but that only applies if the subject was once notable. The point the nominator was making is that this is effectively just a single news event with no lasting coverage or impact, and thus was never notable, making NTEMP irrelevant. I agree with them - this article might as well be 'alleged discovery of oriental yeti' and the criteria that most obviously apply are WP:EVENTCRIT. This clearly misses categories 1 and 2 and most neatly falls into category 4: "shock news", "water cooler story" or viral phenomenon lacking lasting value despite briefly receiving substantial coverage in reliable sources. Hug^syrup 16:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:49, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dwayyo

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Not a notable piece of folklore; coverage includes a few sightings reported in local newspapers but there doesn't seem to be any lasting interest. Seems to be something someone made up on a slow news day. –dlthewave ☎ 03:00, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete due to lack of reliable secondary sources. I'm generally an inclusionist, but there really needs to be notable coverage for us to build an article around. :bloodofox: (talk) 03:22, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - It seems non-notable folklore. Nothing of significance found on current online news searches. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 04:10, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep per WP:SIGCOV. [88][89][90][91][92][93][94][95] TJMSmith (talk) 04:57, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The majority of these links are WP:RS fails. Please keep WP:RS in mind when looking for sources—what we need are reliable secondary sources from academics, like we have for all of our quality folklore-related articles. :bloodofox: (talk) 05:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy WP:COPYVIO from here(2003 on Wayback) and last paragraph from here. See this article version.—eric 05:19, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yikes! :bloodofox: (talk) 05:38, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@EricR and Bloodofox: No worries, I've tagged it G12. ミラ P 15:57, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There were versions of this article in its early history that don't violate copyright, so I have reverted back to one. Any copyright violation in later versions should be dealt with by revision deletion, not speedy deletion of the whole article. I have no opinion as yet on whether this should be kept or deleted, but there is no reason for speedy deletion. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:23, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Phil Bridger: I've tagged it for revdel. ミラ P 20:27, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Since no sources have been provided to prove that the page meets WP:GNG, I have to close this in favour of those arguing that it does not. Yunshui ^雲 _水 11:16, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

International Competition of Piano Delia Steinberg

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(Concurso Internacional de Piano Delia Steinberg: Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Lacks notability, notice how most if not all references are primary sources, there's a reason for that, the competition is virtually unknown in the Spanish-speaking world and is mostly related to the New Acropolis organization who has a interest in advertise its activities both for finantial reasons (as it profits from artistic courses) and proselytising (as is also a religious organization). Dereck Camacho (talk) 01:01, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I disagree with this opinion. Googling the names of the contestants is enough to show the quality of the competition. The New Acropolis is irrelevant to the validity of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giladsom (talk • contribs) 02:56, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep Passes WP:GNG.-Splinemath (talk) 23:44, 5 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Note that notability is not inherited. Neither New Acropolis or participants matter for notability here. I'm not sure it passes WP:GNG, since most sources seem to be routine coverage or non-independent. --MarioGom (talk) 16:52, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Delete It appears none of the winners are notable, at least by W{P standards. DGG ( talk ) 04:52, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: per un-notability. --TV Guy (talk) 03:47, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Discussion of a move to a more appropriate name (since there's no clear favourite here) will need to take place on the article's talkpage, but there's obviously a consensus to retain the article under some title or another. Yunshui ^雲 _水 11:15, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Legal history in Honduras

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Per WP:NOTDIRECTORY; literally just a list of linkless constitutional referendums in Honduran history. Though such an article also exists on the Spanish Wikipedia, the articles it links to appear to just be on amendments added to the original constitution. ToThAc (talk) 02:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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REname to List of legal codes of Honduras. I presume that these are in their time, all-encompassing legal codes relating to their subject. If so, many of the individual codes will be notable (if not all) and should accordingly be redlinked. If I am right, then the list of codes must also be notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:29, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and move to List of legislation of Honduras or a similar title. Satisfies LISTN. See eg Schuster, Guide to the Law and Legal Literature of the Central American Republics, 1937, which contains further references to books in Spanish. James500 (talk) 18:43, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but rename as appropriate. Bearian (talk) 22:06, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but rename as per Peterkingiron and Bearian. Bookscale (talk) 12:01, 14 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. RL0919 (talk) 04:25, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stella Rita Awelle Asogwa

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Fails GNG. A non-notable Nigerian businessperson who ran a Chinese food franchise? Only sources I found were a statement listing her among 13 PhD recipients, this interview, and a blog post styled as an interview. PK650 (talk) 01:57, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - per WP:NOTLINKEDIN Wikipedia isn’t a platform to display your CV.Celestina007 (talk) 00:01, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete likely a case of WP:NOTLINKEDIN. Best, GPL93 (talk) 18:29, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I found one reliable secondary source that qualifies from The Guardian, which is a reliable source from Nigeria, but, other than that, nothing else. Missvain (talk) 02:42, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. A Google search of the subject doesn't show her being discussed in reliable sources. The Guardian source cited in this AFD is actually a primary Q&A source that cannot be used to establish notability. Versace1608 ^{Wanna Talk?} 21:08, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Closing per User:Missvain's comment on relist. (non-admin closure) N0nsensical.system^(err0r?)_(.log) 09:16, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Suresh Krishnan

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Non notable movie director who lacks in-depth significant coverage in reliable sources hence falls short of WP:GNG. Celestina007 (talk) 01:18, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep: Has a marginal notability, considering he has directed five films and was an associate director in over 25 Bollywood films. 137.97.154.111 (talk) 16:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: One. More. Round and then I'll close as no consensus if we can't get more feedback. Thanks everyone for participating and assuming good faith!
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Delete Not a notable director as per WP:DIRECTOR. GargAvinash (talk) 04:51, 4 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/T. G. Mohandas

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The result was delete. RL0919 (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Emmanuel Odoi Lartey

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Fails general notability guidelines, as well as WP:POLITICIAN Less Unless (talk) 00:41, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - Nothing of any significance found on news and newspaper searches. Fails general notability guidelines. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 03:39, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The districts of Ghana are a local level of office, not a "provincial or state" level — so the notability bar he has to clear is not "he is verifiable as holding the claimed office", the way it is for state, provincial or national legislators, but "he can be referenced to a significant depth and volume of press coverage, supporting a substantive article that contextualizes his political significance". And that's not what this article is doing. Bearcat (talk) 17:15, 9 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:NPOL as a local-level politician with far little too sourcing to establish a GNG pass. Best, GPL93 (talk) 21:17, 10 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Yunshui ^雲 _水 11:14, 16 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Derek Rasmussen

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WP:BLP of a policy advisor, not reliably sourced as the subject of any significant media coverage for the purposes of clearing GNG. As always, people are not automatically entitled to have Wikipedia articles just because they exist -- but this makes no particularly strong notability claim beyond the fact that he exists, and is referenced entirely to his own bylined writing about other things, where the notability test is being the subject of coverage written by other people. Bearcat (talk) 21:34, 1 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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delete he may have done good work, but there is not enough written about him to support the idea that he is notable.NotButtigieg (talk) 06:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete- No claim to notability.--Rusf10 (talk) 23:36, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - there seem to be many citations on Google scholar. Bearian (talk) 20:24, 6 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete clearly fails WP:GNG, there's not a secondary source in the entire article. SportingFlyer T·C 04:43, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: @Bearian: claims that the subject has many citations on Google scholar, so I'll give another week to see if WP:PROF is met.
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[1] Henrik Kalling (30 July 2015). "Programtips: Ahnenblatt 2.88" [Program tip: Ahnenblatt 2.88]. Datormagazin (in Swedish). Omsoc Publishing. Retrieved 2 January 2020.

[2] ttps://www.google.de/search?safe=active&ei=tjERXtDgEcnQwALb2L2IBg&q=site%3Awww.tamurajones.net+ahnenblatt&oq=site%3Awww.tamurajones.net+ahnenblatt&gs_l=psy-ab.3...17750.19095..20430...0.0..0.70.322.5......0....1j2..gws-wiz.J4zu6zYFVfg&ved=0ahUKEwjQk6_mnevmAhVJKFAKHVtsD2EQ4dUDCAo&uact=5

[3] ttps://blog.myheritage.de/2018/08/ahnenblatt-fuegt-myheritage-matching-technologien-hinzu/

[4] ttp://www.computergenealogie.de/downloads/CG_PDFs/[2018-03]_Linkliste.pdf

[5] ttp://www.geneapress.com/search?q=Ahnenblatt

[6] ttp://www.gensoftreviews.com/awards.php

[7] ttps://www.compgen.de/2020/01/gedbas-jahresrueckblick-2019/

[8] ttps://yourrootsinpoland.com/blog-en/genealogy-portals-and-programs-where-to-build-your-family-tree/

[9] ttps://sanet.st/blogs/casper03/ahnenblatt_a_multilingual__portable.2684950.html

[10] ttp://www.beholdgenealogy.com/blog/?p=2449

[11] ttp://www.beholdgenealogy.com/blog/?p=3181

[12] ttps://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cb-Aktuell-Software-Ahnenblatt-1393889.html

[13] ttps://www.chip.de/downloads/Ahnenblatt-letzte-Freeware_16394063.html

[14] ttps://www.computerbild.de/artikel/cb-Downloads-Hobby-Freizeit-Ahnenblatt-Tipps-Anleitung-5976952.html

[15] ttps://www.heise.de/download/specials/Unsere-Besten-3-3169020

[16] ttps://www.pcwelt.de/downloads/Freizeit-Programm-Ahnenblatt-554287.html

[17] ttps://winfuture.de/downloadvorschalt,3681.html

[18] ttps://www.fotohits.de/software/detail/ahnenblatt/

[19] ttps://www.pc-magazin.de/download/ahnenblatt-555947.html

[20] ttps://www.pctipp.ch/downloads/datenverwaltung/artikel/ahnenblatt-48285/

[21] ttps://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=%22Ahnenblatt%22

[22] František Hlaváček (2013). "Softwarový nástroj pro tvorbu a správu genealogických dat" [Diplomová práce 2013] (PDF) (in Czech). UNIVERZITA PARDUBICE, Fakulta elektrotechniky a informatiky, Katedra softwarových technologií. Retrieved 5 January 2020. {{cite magazine}}: Cite magazine requires |magazine= (help)

[23] Tomáš Vogeltanz (2010). "Applications for genealogy support" [Bakalářská práce 2010] (PDF) (in Czech). UTB ve Zlíně, Fakulta aplikované informatiky. Retrieved 5 January 2020. {{cite magazine}}: Cite magazine requires |magazine= (help)

[24] Amir Reza Asnafi, Selma Farmers (2018). "Introduction to academic genealogy" (PDF) (in Persian). Shahid Beheshti University. Retrieved 5 January 2020. {{cite magazine}}: Cite magazine requires |magazine= (help)

[25] "Free Family Tree Software Review: Ahnenblatt". Genealogical Musings. 31 October 2014. Retrieved 6 January 2020.

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