User:IjonTichyIjonTichy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search




Welcome and intro[edit]

Welcome. Please note this is not a Wikipedia (WP) article - this is my user page, reflecting only my own personal views.

My main interests are technology, science, mathematics, applied probability and statistics, rational skepticism, energy, natural resources, sustainability, nature, natural history and outdoor recreation.

Environment Equitable Sustainable Bearable (Social ecology) Viable (Environmental economics) Economic SocialSustainable development.svg
About this image
Scheme of sustainable development:
at the confluence of three preoccupations.
Clickable.
High-resolution photograph of me at home, checking my watchlist
The black flag is, among other things, the traditional anarchist symbol
The white and black bisected flag of anarcho-pacifism
A purple and black flag is often used to represent Anarcha-feminism
Diogenes of Sinope saw the officials of a temple leading away a homeless person who had stolen a bowl of food belonging to the treasurers, and Diogenes said, "The great thieves are leading away the little thief." (Diogenes Laërtius, vi. 45.)
Diogenes of Sinope: "Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Painting by Jean-Léon Gérôme (1860)
Albert Einstein on war

I hear you say 'Why?' Always 'Why?' You see things; and you say 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say 'Why not?' -- George Bernard Shaw, Back to Methuselah, Pt. I, Act I (1921)
The reasonable human adapts himself or herself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable human -- George Bernard Shaw, Revolutionist's Handbook
All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom. -- Albert Einstein, "Moral Decay" (1937); Later published in Out of My Later Years (1950)
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. -- Albert Einstein, Letter to Morris Raphael Cohen, professor emeritus of philosophy at the College of the City of New York, defending the appointment of Bertrand Russell to a teaching position (19 March 1940)
Knowledge is important, but imagination is more important than knowledge. -- Albert Einstein
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when contemplating the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of the mystery every day. The important thing is not to stop questioning; never lose a holy curiosity. -- Albert Einstein, Statement to William Miller, as quoted in LIFE magazine (2 May 1955)
The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. -- Albert Einstein, Mein Weltbild (My World-view) (1931)
He who would be a human, must be a nonconformist. He who would gather immortal palms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind. Absolve you to yourself, and you shall have the suffrage of the world. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self Reliance, from Essays: First Series (1841)
This I believe: that the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: the freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual. -- John Steinbeck, East of Eden, Part 1, Ch. 13
Humankind is so much one family that we cannot ensure our own prosperity except by ensuring that of everyone else. If you wish to be happy yourself, you must resign yourself to seeing others also happy. -- Bertrand Russell, "The Science to Save Us from Science," The New York Times Magazine (March 19, 1950)


Peter Kropotkin (1842-1921), the most important theorist of anarchist communism: "Anarchist communism represents an attempt to apply results achieved using the scientific method within the natural sciences to the evaluation of human institutions."
Peter Kropotkin's friend and comrade Emma Goldman delivers a eulogy before crowds at his funeral, accompanied by Alexander Berkman.
Peter Kropotkin: "Anarchist communism is an attempt to apply to the study of human institutions the generalizations gained by means of the natural-scientific inductive method; and an attempt to foresee the future steps of humankind on the road to liberty, equality, and fraternity, with a view to realizing the greatest sum of happiness for every unit of human society."
Occupy Oakland, November 12, 2011, Howard Zinn quote.
Zinn, May 2007: "... anarchism [is] an idea which today still startles us like a bolt of lightning because of its essential truth: we are all one, national boundaries and national hatreds must disappear, war is intolerable, the fruits of the earth must be shared ... the ideas of anarchism: the obliteration of national boundaries and therefore of war, the elimination of poverty, the creation of a full democracy."
Author Stanislaw Lem: Good books tell the truth, even when they're about things that never have been and never will be. They're truthful in a different way.
Peter Kropotkin: When we ask for the abolition of the State and its organs we are always told that we dream of a society composed of men and women better than they are in reality. But no; a thousand times, no. All we ask is that men and women should not be made worse than they are, by such institutions!
Jean-Jacques Rousseau: Men and women are born good, society corrupts
Jean-Jacques Rousseau: Men and women are born free, and everywhere they are in chains
Peter Kropotkin:
Governmental Communism, like Theocratic Communism, is repugnant to the worker.
Kurt Vonnegut:
Socialism is no more an evil word than Christianity. Socialism no more prescribed Joseph Stalin and his secret police, gulags and shuttered churches than Christianity prescribed the Spanish Inquisition. Christianity and socialism alike, in fact, prescribe a society dedicated to the proposition that all men, women, and children are created equal and shall not starve.
Peter Kropotkin: We know men too well to dream such dreams. We have not two measures for the virtues of the governed and those of the governors; we know that we ourselves are not without faults and that the best of us would soon be corrupted by the exercise of power.
Rudolph Rocker: I am an Anarchist not because I believe Anarchism is the final goal, but because there is no such thing as a final goal.
Rudolph Rocker: For the Anarchist, freedom is not an abstract philosophical concept, but the vital concrete possibility for every human being to bring to full development all capacities and talents with which nature has endowed her or him, and turn them to social account.
Errico Malatesta: Violence is the whole essence of authoritarianism, just as the repudiation of violence is the whole essence of communist anarchism.
Errico Malatesta: We anarchists do not want to emancipate the people; we want the people to emancipate themselves.
Errico Malatesta: By anarchist spirit I mean that deeply human sentiment, which aims at the good of all, freedom and justice for all, solidarity and love among the people; which is not an exclusive characteristic only of self-declared anarchists, but inspires all people who have a generous heart and an open mind.
Henry David Thoreau: There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.
Charlie Chaplin: I'm sorry, but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone, if possible, Jew, gentile, black man, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other's happiness — not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another.
In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls, has barricaded the world with hate, has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge has made us cynical. Our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost.
The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these inventions cries out for the goodness in men, cries out for universal brotherhood, for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world — millions of despairing men, women and little children — victims of a system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people. To those who can hear me, I say — do not despair. The misery that is now upon us is but the passing of greed — the bitterness of men who fear the way of human progress. The hate of men will pass, and dictators die, and the power they took from the people will return to the people and so long as men die, liberty will never perish.
Soldiers, don't give yourselves to brutes, men who despise you, enslave you, who regiment your lives, tell you what to do, what to think or what to feel. Who drill you, diet you, treat you like cattle, use you as cannon fodder. Don't give yourselves to these unnatural men — machine men with machine minds and machine hearts! You are not machines. You are not cattle. You are men. You have the love of humanity in your hearts. You don't hate! Only the unloved hate — the unloved and the unnatural.
Soldiers, don't fight for slavery. Fight for liberty! In the 17th Chapter of St. Luke it is written: "the Kingdom of God is within man" — not one man nor a group of men, but in all men. In you! You, the people have the power — the power to create machines. The power to create happiness. You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure.
Then, in the name of democracy, let us use that power. Let us all unite! Let us fight for a new world, a decent world that will give men a chance to work, that will give youth the future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power, but they lie. They do not fulfill their promise; they never will. Dictators free themselves, but they enslave the people. Now, let us fight to fulfill that promise. Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness.
Soldiers - in the name of democracy, let us all unite.

Some observations on editing Wikipedia[edit]

This section of my user page contains resources intended to assist Wikipedia (WP) editors.

Warning: This essay is in draft form, and thus somewhat rambling.

This essay contains my personal advice and opinions as an individual Wikipedia contributor, and represents my own viewpoints. Consider these views with discretion, and don't interpret this essay as a Wikipedia policy or guideline. And if you have a significantly different - or even a completely contradictory - set of viewpoints that you would like to share with me, please post a note on my user talk page listing the data/ evidence/ facts in support of your personal insights.

My views are based on browsing many user pages, user and article talk pages, the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) archives, Administrators' Noticeboards archives, and various additional discussion boards (e.g. civility board, etc). There, I observed the behavior of some editors exhibiting nasty, hostile and disruptive behavior, including: lack of respect for other editors, personal attacks, disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, casting aspersions on others, using offensive language (including, but not limited to, abusive, rude, insulting or derogatory language), gaming the system, stonewalling, spurious argumentation (e.g. special pleading), creating and spreading Wikidrama and World Wrestling Federation-style melodrama, using wordplay formulated to mock users, WikiBullying, WikiBaiting and other forms of disruptive editing and disruptive behavior --- some sophisticated, subtle or indirect; some more crude.

I hope the material below would help you understand why you should refrain from violating the spirit, principles or letter of Wikipedia policies, and why you should not behave disruptively towards editors. I am personally opposed to all disruptive behavior. I strongly encourage you to be respectful and civil to the utmost in all your endeavors and to always strive to exhibit solidarity, camaraderie and generosity in all your interactions on WP. The best way to enforce civility is to model it in one's own interactions. But I also hope to discourage you from expecting that, just because you may act civilly towards others, they are obligated to reciprocate. Don't expect that others must behave courteously just because you acted in a friendly, polite, respectful fashion. More generally, you will be a considerably happier editor if you stop expecting Wikipedia to be rational, fair, coherent, consistent, or anything like that. Additionally, if you find contributing to Wikipedia isn't enjoyable, I'd log off until such time (if ever) you find that it might be.

On WP articles with contentious subject matter, a small group of full time editors with a more-or-less commonly shared ideology, beliefs or viewpoints can successfully push their POV in the article (in covert and/or overt ways). In the majority of cases these editors don't even need to coordinate their efforts or intentionally collaborate or cooperate in any substantial way (nor are they members of a conspiracy, cabal or cult); nonetheless, they may be likely to prevail in some editorial and behavioral disputes with those who simply can't afford the enormous time investment. These issues (as well as many additional insights on Wikipedia) are developed more fully in various user-contributed essays on WP (e.g. in the extended quotes I provide below from WP: Expert retention and from the user pages of User: The Devil's Advocate, User: NE Ent and User: Beyond My Ken ).

Wikipedia is based on loose collaboration between WP community members. However, high alignment of the participants is essential. Overall, there is a high degree of alignment among WP community members. The alignment is provided by the core policies of NPOV (Neutral Point of View), V (Verifiability), RS (Reliable Sources) and Wikipedia:NOR (No Original Research), as well as many additional [important, although somewhat less important] policies, guidelines, rules etc, as well as a small army of administrators willing and able to enforce the alignment. The administrators also have the willingness and ability to temporarily block the access of abusive users to editing Wikipedia articles, i.e., the access of users whose article editing actions and/ or behaviors towards other users fall significantly out of alignment with Wikipedia’s core tenets and are disruptive to the continued development of the encyclopedia. Administrators’ actions on Wikipedia are not intended to punish abusive users – they are only intended to bring violators back into alignment with the letter – and more importantly the spirit - of Wikipedia’s core philosophy/ tenets/ goals/ reason for existence (raison d'être). Thus, it is correct to emphasize the loose collaboration of the members of the community, but we should not risk glorifying loose collaboration too much, without sufficient emphasis on the fact that a moderate amount of structure/ coordination/ enforcement is essential to ascertain members of the community remain highly aligned with Wikipedia's most basic, most fundamental vision/ tenets/ goals/ objectives/ spirit/ philosophy/ reason-for-existence/ foundational policies.

In the sequel, I discuss some issues related to editing WP. As always, don't accept my words unquestioningly. Read critically and skeptically, and verify all data/ evidence/ facts for yourself based on your own research and your own reliable sources.


I am extremely, extremely frustrated with my recent edit experience. I edited the Mazda article yesterday to add a little information about keiretsu. (See [1]) My edit was deemed 'irrelevant' and was quickly reverted. It seemed to be a judgmental call and editor(s) refused to engage in any serious discussion.[2] My attempt to draw in attention at the Administrators' noticeboard was quickly shut down, by the same editor [3]. My question is: is there a place in Wiki for editors like me, who lack time and experience, to contribute, and to reflect the ideas of many? Or the Wiki community would only accept those few with more experience and time. The outcome would mean whether this was my last participation into this (once) great project of you. Sincerely,--Now wiki (talk) 19:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Step #1 is discuss at Talk:Mazda, not the user talk pages. Try that first, but be aware it may take a few days or a week to attract enough users. Step #2 is Be patient. Otherwise, the next steps to take are listed at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution (i.e., WP:3O, WP:RFC, WP:DRN, etc.). If your edits are correct and appropriate, they will eventually prevail in some form, but be prepared to accept compromise and/or rejection. Rgrds. --64.85.215.214 (talk) 20:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
Try editing 20 different pages before getting demoralized: It is easy to imagine WP having degenerated into a hostile place which rejects all newcomers; however, try to update several articles, and compare the experiences when working on each page. If a person only visited the beaches at Nice (France) they might conclude all beaches have stones, or only swam at Mombasa then conclude all beaches have seaweed, or only walked at Virginia Beach, VA then might think all beaches have extensive white sand. Edit 20 articles for a few days and compare a variety of results. -Wikid77 21:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


I take no strong view on the wisdom of the original topic ban, nor on the wisdom of lifting it now. As a general principle, tendentious and speculative editing can be wrong, even if the editor is proven right in the long run about the underlying facts. But on the other hand, and also as a general principle, we ought to be kind and forgiving and always willing to give people a chance to learn and improve. It is up to the community to sift through the facts and come to an informed judgment call about particular cases. The main reason I'm posting here, then, is to suggest that blocking someone based on a post to my talk page raising the general issue of lifting a topic ban (and engaging in part with the topic itself) strikes me as unwise in the long run. One of the important principles of Wikipedia is that we ought to be open to thoughtful disagreement and dissent, and my talk page has by long tradition been somewhat of a haven for people to come and raise broader philosophical issues. There are limits to this, of course - it wouldn't be wise to allow my talk page to become a useless battleground for editors who have been excluded elsewhere! But the occasional post there, which would not be welcome elsewhere, strikes me as a useful safety valve, and also a good way for me to keep in touch with edge issues in the community.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Support. I've the impression that the general editing climate on the relevant pages isn't so good, you have to look at the behavior of all editors in that context. Sceptre has had a time out from that area, I think Sceptre's return will improve the editing climate. Count Iblis (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Why exactly would unbanning someone who was topic banned for a large amount of disruption improve the editing climate? To me it looks like it would just add more fuel to the fire. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Being inside a group where there are tensions can over time cause someone to lose a reasonable sense of perspective, you can get dragged down into a mindset where you feel the need to prove your point in various unproductive ways (you don't see that it is unproductive yourself, of course). If you have left that group, it may well be the remaining editors whose behavior is now less than ideal (e.g. BaseballBuggs has been mentioned on Jimbo's page). So, the person returning will have regained a more reasonable perspective and will be able to have a more positive impact on the group. Count Iblis (talk) 16:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


  • From this subsection of Wikipedia: Arbitration --- The Arbitration Committee is the ultimate dispute resolution method. Although disputes usually arise from a disagreement between two opposing views on how articles should read, the Arbitration Committee explicitly refuses to directly rule on which view should be adopted. Statistical analyses suggest that the committee ignores the content of disputes and focuses on the way disputes are conducted instead,[1] functioning not so much to resolve disputes and make peace between conflicting editors, but to weed out problematic editors while allowing potentially productive editors back in to participate. Therefore, the committee does not dictate the content of articles, although it sometimes condemns content changes when it deems the new content violates Wikipedia policies (for example, if the new content is biased). (Comment: the committee may (directly) rule that a content change is inappropriate, but may NOT (directly) rule that a certain content is inappropriate.) Its remedies include cautions and probations (used in 63.2% of cases) and banning editors from articles (43.3%), subject matters (23.4%) or Wikipedia (15.7%). Complete bans from Wikipedia are largely limited to instances of impersonation and anti-social behavior. When conduct is not impersonation or anti-social, but rather anti-consensus or violating editing policies, warnings tend to be issued.[2] (Comment: this needs to be clarified. Anti-consensus behavior appears to be defined mostly as "edit warring".)


  • Paraphrasing WP:Don't assume: If you don't feel like assuming good faith about another user's actions, you don't have to. You can still give the benefit of the doubt by simply not assuming, one way or another. As User:JeffBillman put it: If I may offer a bit of unsanctioned advice: Assume nothing. Don't assume good faith, even though that's something of a rule here on Wikipedia. Don't assume another editor has a particular intent, whether "good" or "bad". Don't even assume another editor is a human rather than a dog. Why? Because when you make any assumption, even one of good faith, you are creating for yourself an illusion from which the truth may disappoint you. More pertinently, you expect a series of interactions from your fellow editors that may or may not be fulfilled. Ultimately, you reduce your fellow editors to your own prejudices and preconceptions. If instead you assume nothing, nobody will ever correctly accuse you of assuming bad faith, and you will never fall short of the ideal of assuming good faith. Indeed, it's the best way out of that thought trap. Cheers, JeffBillman (talk) 03:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
"What do I think? Well, at the risk of sounding rude, I couldn't care any less. Let's put it this way: I don't assume there's any truth to Niteshift's claim of being a member of the "vast right wing conspiracy". I don't assume that it's a lie, either; or a joke, or anything else. It is to me, simply a statement Niteshift wished to share with readers of his userspace, for reasons I'm rather disinterested in knowing at the moment. Because of this, I don't assume anything about Niteshift when I read his contributions here. I find this to be a much more tenable position than the assumption of "good faith" Wikipedia asks us to maintain. Because I don't assume good faith per se, it's also difficult for me to assume bad faith. I'll admit this is a fairly recent discovery of mine. Up until recently, I tried to assume good faith of my fellow editors, and failed miserably at times. This seems to be working out for me thus far. Just a suggestion ..." JeffBillman (talk) 16:00, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
From Wikipedia: No angry mastodons: "A related mistake is to speculate about the intellectual capacity or the mental health of other editors. People do not rise to their best selves when they are reminded of their worst selves or accused of faults they do not possess. Editors who make these accusations exhibit poor self-control. Leave the angry mastodons in the Ice Age and focus on the article."
Ijon Tichy note: In other words, don't assume any user attributes at all, e.g. whether they are intelligent or not, whether they have integrity or not, whether they are a "good" or "bad" person, etc. Furthermore, don't speculate or claim to know that an editor has or has not read a source, read the article, or read a policy or guideline. Don't focus on users, focus on the sources - make statements similar to these examples: "As noted in the (source, WP guideline, etc) it is the case that X, Y and Z." Your comments, whether on edit summaries or talk pages should address the sources, Wikipedia article content, structure, policies and implementation of policy in accordance with the WMF mission rather than the habits, knowledge, skills, abilities, or lack thereof, of WP editors.


  • As the TLDR essay notes, "As a label, [TLDR] is sometimes used as a tactic to thwart the kinds of discussion which are essential in collaborative editing." So is TE. One of my favorite sections from WP: Too long; didn't read (TLDR): --- Maintain civility --- Sometimes a person might feel that a reader's decision to pointedly mention this essay during a discussion is dismissive and rude. Therefore, courteous editors might, as an alternative to citing WP:TLDR, create a section on the longwinded editor's talk page and politely ask them to write more concisely. A common mis-citation of this essay is to ignore the reasoned and actually quite clear arguments and requests for response presented by an (necessarily or unnecessarily) wordy editor with a flippant "TL;DR" in an attempt to discredit and refuse to address their strongly-presented ideas and/or their criticism of one's own position. This is a four-fold fallacy: ad hominem, appeal to ridicule, thought-terminating cliché, and simple failure to actually engage in the debate because one is supposedly too pressed for time to bother, the inverted version of proof by verbosity.


  • From Civility enforcement: (a) Inconsistencies in civility enforcement - Throughout the project, breaches of the expected level of decorum are common. These violations of the community's standards of conduct are unevenly, and often ineffectively, enforced. ( See this, and this). (b) Difficulties in defining civility - The civility policy has been the subject of ongoing debate since its creation in 2004, with over 1700 edits to the policy and more than 3400 edits to its talk page (both of these data points retrieved in Feb. 2012). This ongoing debate highlights continuing disagreement on what constitutes incivility, and particularly sanctionable incivility, and makes it difficult for editors and administrators to apply the policy.


  • From User: The Devil's Advocate --- My editing philosophy: In my editing I strive to take the approach of a Bohemian Wikipedian. I draw my inspiration from the values espoused in the film Moulin Rouge! of Truth, Beauty, Freedom, and Love. These also reflect the kind of values I try to uphold in life. As it pertains to Wikipedia I apply these values in this way:
    • Truth - Too often people take the dictum of verifiability, not truth too far by presuming that if a reliable source can be found to make the claim then it is ok for Wikipedia to say it in the editorial voice. Usually this occurs because of an editor's own bias seeping into his or her editing process. At times because there is an absence of contravening sources editors similarly feel confident in using stronger language than that of their sources. However, I believe this goes against an unspoken rule that Wikipedia should always strive for factual accuracy. I seek to counter the systemic bias that often works its way into contentious topic areas in pursuit of the greater truth. That means using the most neutral wording the sources support and, save for "sky is blue"-type situations, in-text attribution should be the norm. The goal is making the project a place to find the whole story with eyes unclouded by prejudice, contrary to the more controlled sources of information in the world.
    • Beauty - When it comes to any article one is likely to find more than a few instances of repetition and less-than-engaging wording. One of my objectives in contributing to Wikipedia is to improve the stylistic appearance of any article I come across. That means, to provide an example, trimming down the instances of paragraphs starting with the same letter, and especially the same word. Another big issue is avoiding the timeline-like style certain articles about ongoing events tend to take on out of a general apathy of editors. By beautifying the project wherever I can my hope is that more readers will be engaged with the repository of knowledge Wikipedia represents.
    • Freedom - This project is first and foremost an experiment in information democracy. Submitting the whole of human ingenuity and knowledge to the task of building a source of knowledge for all requires great care and consideration. As predicted by the iron law of oligarchy, Wikipedia has fallen prey to the same abusive tendencies of any governance system. Rule by consensus may appear to be a policy to cherish, but it is all too often misused by editors to impose their own will on the project. Assuming good faith keeps us willfully blind to some extent about what is taking place. Look through any article in a contentious topic area and you are liable to find a consortium of editors from the same ideological persuasion who have become the page's self-appointed gatekeepers. Enterprising users who go against their will often find themselves driven away, whether it is by falling into a revert trap or simply becoming frustrated with endless stone-walling. Unfortunately, Wikipedia looks more favorably upon the gatekeepers as they greatly outnumber their opponent. Always looking for a way to satisfy all parties without compromising my principles and drawing attention to the biases of all sides is the best way I can think of to insure this experiment remains open to as many people as possible.
    • Love - Above all things I believe in WikiLove. WikiLove is like oxygen. WikiLove lifts us up where we belong. All you need is WikiLove. For me it means keeping an open mind on all things. Were more editors to leave themselves open it would be easier to defuse most disputes. Remain open to having your edits rewritten. Remain open to changing your mind. Remain open to changing your actions even if you won't change your mind. Too much potential is lost in the ideological rigidity of groupthink and confirmation bias. Pursuit of WikiLove means that the only things we should try to take seriously are the feelings of others. Sometimes it is hard to stay cool and we have all been there at one point or another. We should thus not let an occasional lapse determine someone's fate as none of us are perfect. Keep in mind that we do this not for ourselves, but for all those who may witness this body of work.
    • To sum it all up, my goal is to try and uphold the idea of what Wikipedia can be, while dealing with the reality of what Wikipedia is at this moment. More than anything I want this project to be a great service to all truth-seekers in the world. It should be a light of knowledge in dark places when all other lights go out. One could say that I am a true believer when it comes to this idea and, even if it leaves me battered and bruised, I will strive to defend the principles of this project above all else.


  • Some reflections on WP:Randy in Boise: It is interesting to learn how some editors enable each other and systematically take the side of members in their group in the disputes with which they inevitably become involved (disputes with editors outside their group). Frequently, they discover behavioral problems with every editor who opposes the POV pushing of a member of their group. Meanwhile they ignore or minimize their own behavioral problems.


  • From User: The Devil's Advocate: --- Things to Do --- "... Write essay on "camping" at WP articles; Write essay on "railroading" by groups to potentially link with camping; Write essay on "echo chamber" to discuss groupthink on Wikipedia to link from camping and railroading; Write essay on "doubling down" in contentious disputes ..."


  • Jimbo Wales on disruptive editing: "In the old days, I would have just personally blocked the troll on sight, and that would have been the end of that. One of the things that makes wikis work is precisely the ability of the community to tell people to knock off the nonsense or get blocked. If you go back to the disastrous culture of unmoderated Usenet groups, you can see what happens if it is too difficult to block trolls from participation. What happens is that good people reach the end of their good humor and lash out. The social environment degrades to people screaming at each other and it becomes quite hard to tell the good people from the bad. If someone says that they "consider Wikipedia to be an intrinsically evil concept" then the solution is not to get emotional and lash out at them in anger, but to realize that telling them to fuck off is not nearly as satisfying as maintaining a good sense of humor while making them fuck off (with a permanent ban). We have better things to do!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:00, 28 August 2012 (UTC)


A classic case of WP: BOOMERANG, from Administrators' Noticeboard:

Uncivil discussion by User:Sean.hoyland -- User:Sean.hoyland appears to be wikihounding and violating WP:Civility. He has made matters worse by impeding honest efforts at dispute resolution. He appears unable to control his battleground behavior. His comments are in clear violation of civility, namely, by "making snide comments, making personal remarks about editors, and being aggressive." He recently put me in the same category as "advocates of Intelligent design, Holocaust deniers, and others who "deny the existence of evidence." (See WP:NPA: "Comparing editors to Nazis, dictators, or other infamous persons. [See also Godwin's law.]") I have done nothing to deserve such attacks.
  • As can be seen, I have voiced concerns politely and made an honest effort to engage in discussion in Talk:Israel#Palestinian state, but he has responded aggressively to dispute resolution of a reasonable disagreement. It is an honest discussion that does not show any signs of WP:NOTADVOCATE, for which he cites as his reason for rejected any form of DR.[redacted]
  • He said I and another editor lack "basic behavioral attributes," but never explained what he means, for his reason not to resolve the dispute.[4][redacted]
  • In a search for guidance, I looked for editors who are willing to volunteer to help resolve disputes. I found an admin and made a polite request for advice for this situation. User:Sean.hoyland, apparently by wikihounding, made an aggressive, uncivil, and rude comment on the editor's page after my request:

    I am not refusing to "cooperate in any form of dispute resolution". I am refusing to cooperate with you. ... I also don't cooperate with advocates of Intelligent design, Holocaust deniers, a variety of editors who deny the existence of evidence, because it is a waste of time.

I have acted professionally and collegially and have done nothing to deserve these abrasive comments. I have sought to resolve our disagreement, but this user is making that difficult if not impossible. He cannot control his battleground behavior, and while I have remained civil he is not making an effort to engage in dispute resolution, leaving many cases at a standstill. I kindly bring this to your attention. --Precision123 (talk) 22:02, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment - I took the time to read first 20 edits of this discussion: Talk:Israel#Palestinian state. Precision123 is performing Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing in re-opening the infamous case that West Bank and Gaza Strip would not be Palestinian (occupied) territories but disputed territories per WP:NPOV. I can understand that the way he insists despite the responses that he receives could upset and make many lose their temper. Pluto2012 (talk) 22:28, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
    (edit) And I lost my time. Pluto2012 (talk) 22:33, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely no civil POV pushing at all. There are no fringe theories that I push or give any weight to. I fully support describing the Palestinian territories as the Palestinian territories. My position is against the POV pushing of "State of Palestine" on the borders. I fully support that the Palestinian territories are the West Bank and Gaza Strip. But the reliable sources do not refer to those territories as the state of Palestine. (Same with most WP articles). Please do not make those accusations. --Precision123 (talk) 22:36, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure why Pluto2012 is bringing up an unrelated edit that is a year old, to which I have made no further edits since. Pluto2012's edit was just quickly removed by another editor there just now, so I am not sure what his grievance is. I have made many improvements to articles of political parties (e.g., Hatnuah, Meretz, Likud, Green Movement, Ale Yarok, Yesh Atid, Shas, etc.) virtually all of them uncontroversial and accepted by editors still today. You may see. No accusations of POV pushing before. This is not related, so please stay on topic. --Precision123 (talk) 22:43, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
@Pluto2012:, you want to see civil POV pushing by Precision123 just look here: Talk:Haaretz.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:24, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment This is another case where Precision123 tries to make a case out of nothing against Sean.hoyland. Start being a useful contributor and you will surely get better replies and cooperation. --IRISZOOM (talk) 01:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Please allow the admins to respond and read for themselves. This group of allied editors are trying to discredit me with no explanation. The diffs speak for themselves. A lack of civility and effort to cooperate is apparent. I have always been a useful and professional contributor and have been civil, so please leave your personal attacks to yourself. --Precision123 (talk) 02:37, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Precision123 says This group of allied editors are trying to discredit me with no explanation. WP:WIAPA says Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. What's wrong with this picture?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:46, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
I have used several diffs pointing to specific incidents, unlike the other editors' comments, including yours. Please avoid accusations and let the admins see for themselves. I have acted professionally and have done nothing to deserve rude remarks or aggressive comparisons to Holocaust deniers when I politely request dispute resolution. --Precision123 (talk) 02:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Precision123 needs to be more concise—the opening paragraph is filled with irrelevant links (people here know what "intelligent design" is, and come to think of it, they know what CIVIL is as well). I looked at the first link that appeared to be about the issue, and found a perfectly civil and helpful comment from Sean Hoyland, currently visible here. The comment may be regarded as a little blunt, but all editors who have met WP:CPUSH contributors know that mediation is a waste of time in certain cases. My recommendation would be for Precision123 to examine the message in Sean's comment and evaluate whether any of it may have merit. Wikipedia is not available for advocacy. Johnuniq (talk) 03:22, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. I was trying to be as inclusive as I could, but I will take your advice. My concern is over an editor who essentially acts a stumbling block to dispute resolution as could be seen there. I have not done anything to be put in categories with people like Holocaust denier, intelligent design advocates, etc., with whom mediation might actually be worthless. Rather, I want to pursue dispute resolution, and this editor just responds abrasively and rudely to me. --Precision123 (talk) 03:32, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Precision123, can you please stop editing your remarks after people have responded to them? It's extremely confusing for everyone who's trying to follow the conversation, if anyone still is.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 03:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
I am sorry if it was confusing for you. I put a note that says [redact] because I took the advice to make it more concise. I do not want my statement to be misconstrued. Never would I do anything like POV push (civil or otherwise), and there is no evidence that I have. Dispute resolution is between editors who do not agree, not between those who do. All I ask for is an honest discussion, and an editor should respond in a manner that is civil. Responding so aggressively to a polite request for DR is disruptive and unfair. --Precision123 (talk) 03:52, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Not trying it get involved in admin matters or even know if I'm allowed to post here. If I'm not my apologies. Sean Hoyland isn't patting anyone on the butt and tucking them in good night but he's hardly breached civility. I'm involved with this dispute or or least the one involving regarding Israel. Sean maybe a stumbling block for dispute resolution. But all avenues of dispute resolution used have been optional. I hate to assume bad faith but that is all can assume here. I have to ask you Precision if this is an effort to get Sean out of the way temporarily so that you can have a better chance at forcing a consensus. Again my apologies administrators if I shouldn't have posted here. As party involved in the dispute that lead to this I thought would be appropriate. Echo me if I'm required here for anything.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 04:28, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely not at all, Serialjoepsycho. I would love to cooperate with him or any other editor in dispute resolution. I have never requested that he be blocked. As you can see I am understandably offended by such abrasive comments; I did nothing to deserve them and it is disrupting an honest effort at dispute resolution. But I did not want him to be blocked or banned. We have a reasonable disagreement that is best guided by an admin or mediator. I think that would be great for all of us if he were to engage, and did not impede, dispute resolution. I am sorry if that was not clear before. --Precision123 (talk) 04:37, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Having reviewed the talk page, Precision123's behavior here and elsewhere, I have imposed an ARBPIA Discretionary Sanctions 1-week article ban on Precision123 editing Israel and its talk page. He is acting politely and within administrative channels, but in a persistently disruptive manner in which he is acting as if the others around him cannot have a valid differing viewpoint. This is not collegial; we do not require everyone sing Kumbaya and agree on the real world positions, but we do require that you respect that others can have differing opinions and that those are valid and need to be respected. Merely holding a differing opinion is not grounds for administrative challenges or disruptive behavior, even if those are done very politely. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Not previously familiar with WP:ARBPIA, or if I were in the past, I've forgotten it. Are you doing this under the "Standard discretionary sanctions" section, the remedy 6)? Not challenging, just seeking to be clear, especially since Arbcom's repealed some findings and provisions as well as enacting others that weren't originally included. Nyttend (talk) 04:59, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, standard discretionary sanctions are now enabled on all PIA articles. They enable any uninvolved administrator to warn any editor who they believe is editing in a disruptive manner in the field, which was done twice earlier this year for Precision123. Once warned, any uninvolved administrator can article or topic ban, etc. etc. Arbitration enforcement DS admin actions are not subject to one-admin overturn, but can be appealed or reviewed and overturned subject to a reasonable consensus on any appropriate noticeboard (which I think is AN, ANI, or AE). Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:10, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Boomerang. I think from looking at those differences that Sean hoyland is the cool-headed person, besides being overall a constructive editor. Precision123 on the other hand appears to be a POV pusher and his overal behavior in my opinion warrants a topic ban of some sort. Pass a Method talk 16:17, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


Request for forgiveness
More than a year has passed since I was blocked for stupidly threatening User:Jayron32. I'm from Argentina and after an edit-war, I said the following: "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian..." or so I said. I well-deserved to be blocked because I was beyond immature and stupid. Then, I created another account to start anew as a respected user. Well, the sock-puppetry accusations began and I couldn't ever again work on Wikipedia. I deny sock-puppetry since I don't, I can't use blocked accounts and I'm not interested in having more than one account. So, I'm now asking to be forgiven and allowed to create another account and start anew. Thank you indeed. --190.178.156.205 (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Don't even remember it, but if you're here to do good work, go do that. --Jayron32 23:04, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
From what I can see, I would support the editor coming back. Dennis Brown |  | WER 23:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Jayron for giving me a second and last opportunity!, I've been working in the shadows and doing well with User:Japanesehelper but I'm afraid of going public (i.e. nominating candidates for Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates) and getting blocked for the alleged "sock-puppetry" that never occurred since I never used two accounts at the same time. Who can guarantee me that "Japanesehelper", my only account, will not be blocked? Thank you.--190.178.183.38 (talk) 23:11, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
No one can guarantee anything, but the person you attacked has given his blessing for you to be back, one other person thinks that is the best unbureaucratic way to deal with the problem (me), and assuming you just edit and stay out of trouble and not war or get into fights, I don't see a problem. Assuming others don't argue against this solution, you could just point to this discussion. Dennis Brown |  | WER 23:16, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Perfect. You can see my record with "Japanesehelper", it's cleaner than a brand new t-shirt. I was immature when that happened. Promise it won't happen ever again. --Japanesehelper (talk) 23:20, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Doesnt sockpuppetry include using new accounts to evade blocks? Howunusual (talk) 00:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes and no. We're not here to mete out perpetual punishment, we're here to build an encyclopedia. This isn't a game. If Japanesehelper wished to be helpful, I am not going to get in their way. --Jayron32 00:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
It is a legitimate question, but again I agree with Jayron. When someone appears to be very sincere, apologetic and sets a clear future path for their behavior, and the person who was on the receiving end last time (Jayron) gives their blessing, I think we owe it to ourselves and them to take a chance. Dennis Brown |  | WER 00:46, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Let's not prevent good work from being done. Probably a bad use of clean start, but WP:IAR - a productive editor need not be a perfect editor, both in content or character. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:42, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Probably worth verifying whether this is an IP sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/AndresHerutJaim/Archive, a racist ultranationalist extremist and sociopathic liar who in the spare time off wiki writes things like "fucking mohammedan apes and baby-killers", "Fuck you !! stupid Islamofascist terrorist ape dressed in rags. I hope you and all your family of monkeys shall receive what you deserve when Israel kick your coward ass. Asshole! ISRAEL WIN", "Don’t worry bitch, nobody wants your fucking Arab Keffiyeh. Nobody wants to look like an ugly terrorist monkey, except for Purim", "¡¡¡God bless Nakba!!! (Jewish victory over the war of extermination that the Arabs brought upon them 65 years ago). Never in history was a "catastrophe" so well deserved! God bless Israel. Keep strong, united, prepared and brave.", ""palestine" does not exist, never did and never will", "Yes, you are in this struggle and you will be defeated like all the enemies of my nation. I'm a Jew from Argentina who soon will make Aliya and join the IDF in order to kick, destroy and fight against bullshit scum like you. Fuck off you fucking marxist. Leave Israel with all your fucking Arab ape friends. We don't want people like you in Medinat Israel. AM ISRAEL CHAI VE KAIAM ISRAEL WIN". Sean.hoyland - talk 04:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I should add that Japanesehelper does not look like AndresHerutJaim, but AndresHerutJaim's persistent socking via both accounts and Argentina based IPs has been such a major problem over the past few years in the WP:ARBPIA topic area and its suburbs that experienced editors will assume that any Buenos Aires based IP active in the ARBPIA topic area that appears to be advocating for Israel or against Palestine or Iran is a sock. Is there a diff for the comment "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian..." ? Sean.hoyland - talk 05:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree some idea of who this editor actually is would be helpful, at least if we are going to give any indication they may be allowed to stick around.
I don't know much about the editor Sean.hoyland mentions above, but Special:Contributions/Japanesehelper is looking a lot like Special:Contributions/Timothyhere who abused many sockpuppets Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Timothyhere + Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Timothyhere + many which were either blocked per WP:DENY or which unblocked but had their contributions deleted). While obviously it was never confirmed by a CU, they did sometimes edit under an Argentinian IP. Particularly in their later stages, they seemed to mostly troll the Reference Desk, Help Desk and Teahouse. But they did hang around ITN at various stages. Beyond simple trolling, they did seem to have a particular interest in Nazi Germany and serial killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dahmer similar to Japanesehelper.
They also claimed to be Japanese at least once Special:Contributions/Kotjap with a corresponding interest in Japanese related topics although I think they showed the same interest even with other identities. Kotjaps claims to be Japanese weren't particularly believable. IIRC they claimed to be living in Japan with some elaborate back story like being a 55 year old former hikikomori who's father beat them [5] yet never showed any actual evidence of understanding Japanese. (I can't recall if they ever explicitly said they spoke Japanese but I think they did repeatedly saying they were not a native English speaker, which may be true regardless, which combined with their claims about their identity lead to an obvious conclusion. And even IIRC when Japanese editors suggested they ask their question in Japanese they never said they didn't actually speak Japanese.) Or really any evidence of knowing that much about Japan you would expect from someone who lived there. (And of course, it's very likely they were editing from an Argentinian IP.)
As stated above, it seemed clear they were trolling. Over time, it became fairly obvious they already knew the answer to many of their 'questions' or otherwise didn't care. Furthermore, beyond the Japanese identity, they pretended to be from all over the world usually mentioning stuff in 'my country' or similar. In particular, in many of their later identities, they claimed to be from tiny island/s nations, or at least small poor places you wouldn't generally expect many wikipedians from.
I don't know if they ever said the stuff about "If I were an Israeli soldier and you a Palestinian" to Jayron32, but I'm fairly sure it wasn't the reason why the Timothyhere round of socks was blocked. It could be that the AndresHerutJaim and Timothyhere group are the same editor and no one noticed before. I would also note that if it's either editor, their indication their disruption stopped over a year ago isn't particularly believable. (I believe there were more recent Timothyhere socks than the late June ones but I'm lazy to look for them.)
I'm not suggesting an immediate block since I'm not seeing an obvious signs of disruption under the new account. And if it is Timothyhere they seem to have given up on pretending to be from places they clearly aren't. But if it's either or both editor/s, lying about their history and why they were blocked is not a good sign. And they should expect to be on a short leash not because of anything to do with forgiveness but because we have good reason to think they can't be trusted to continue to edit.
Edit: The most recent probably trolling from Timothyhere I can find is Special:Contributions/190.178.141.180. It's nothing particularly wrong but given the history it was hard to believe their claim they were "working for a psychology project on the case regarding Kato". Also looking a bit more, I think Timothyhere had an interest in terrorism and in particular Al Qaeda under their many identities, in particular in relation to Canada. But I don't recall much interest in the Israel-Palestinian issue or Iran.
Nil Einne (talk) 06:51, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
This is not the correct process for requesting an unblock. The editor says their account was blocked 1 year ago and they apparently set up a sock account to continue editing shortly afterwards. They have not even told us what the original account was, or how they were blocked. Furthermore, if they continue editing, they are not normally allowed to make a clean start but must keep the old account after it has been unblocked. My suggestion is to close this discussion thread, block the IP and Japanesehelper, and ask them to make the request on their talk page or, if that is blocked, through email. At that time, a CU can be conducted. TFD (talk) 07:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
In a nutshell, it is easier to watch someone when they are in the open, and the liklihood of them becoming productive is higher as well. My opinion hasn't changed. I won't block and would oppose anyone else at this juncture. Wait and see, monitor, hope for the best. Dennis Brown |  | WER 11:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)


When you deal with civil POV pushers, you will question your own sanity and at times start thinking that you might in fact be the problem. If this happens, IME you should take a step back and think about your true reasons for editing. This should give you perspective. If you are truly here to build an encyclopedia, then you are not inherently the problem. You may have gone about it improperly and made mistakes, but that's okay, it happens, the Wikipedia community tends to forgive people who make innocent mistakes. However, the people who are not here to build an encyclopedia pose the real problem to wikipedia's "system". Often, they do everything right and rarely make mistakes (if they did things wrong, they would have been "weeded out" already).
In my experience, the best way to deal with civil POV pushing is to simply get more experience editing. The problem with civil POV pushers is they happen to be very knowledgeable about the way Wikipedia works and they know how to game the system and WP:WIKILAWYER without getting caught; if they weren't that good at it, they would have been dealt with accordingly by now. They also know the limits, and won't game the system or wikilawyer an unreasonable amount that will get them into trouble. Civil POV pushers have an agenda, and they will manipulate the rules to get what they want. This is what will drive you crazy. They will tell you you are violating all these rules, and they might actually make some seemingly very good arguments. You will likely begin to question your sanity. However, they are wikilawyering, using the "letter of the law" (Wikipedia policies) too strictly while ignoring the "spirit of the law". They are also probably rhetorically skilled, and will find ways to shift the conversation into a topic that better suits their agenda (ie you might find that you are talking about trivial interpretations of policies or other vague theoretical nonsense instead of the actual content). Do not try to rationally reason with them, as it will only lead you off track and drive you further from a consensus.
Once you start to better understand the policies and all the little ins and outs, you can start picking up on the rules that they are twisting and distorting and bending and blurring. Now, when you recognize their tactics, you can call them out on it. This should make a big difference to your editing experience. You will begin to know for certain that you are not at fault and this should ease your mind. You should also be more equipped to hold your ground in the content dispute. Please know that they will not give you any leeway and they will quickly come to understand your strengths and weaknesses. So if you're really lazy about going and verifying material in sources, they will not make any efforts to verify it for you. For example, they might cite "pages 110-170".
I know you asked for a "town sheriff", but unfortunately I don't know the best place to find one. Very rarely will you find a sheriff that cares enough to take the time to hear your case and begin to understand what the POV pusher(s) are doing. At first glance, most sheriffs will think the pusher(s) are doing nothing wrong. However, if someone really takes the time to understand your situation, they will be able to help (assuming they thoroughly know the rules). No matter what you do, if you hold on long enough, someone will stumble by. Things that seem like curses might actually turn out to be blessings. For example, the POV pusher(s) might report you for edit warring or something like that. However, this will get an admin involved. Hopefully, that admin will catch on and if he or she does, he or she may help you.
If someone does come around and helps you out, you will probably find that they are making all of the same arguments you've been making the whole time, but are citing policies while doing so. This should truly put your mind to rest. Personally, I think the reason why Wikipedia is an unreliable source boils down to civil POV pushing. In reality, any person can learn the ins and outs of Wikipedia and will have a relatively easy time pushing any opinion they want. They have no fear for their reputation or their license or their job because editing Wikipedia can be totally anonymous. Furthermore, not only can they push their POV onto articles, but they can do the same to policy pages, which broadens their POV's influence from a single article to every article.
Charles35 (talk), 2013 (UTC)


From Jimbo Wales' talk page:

Editing uncontroversially can be tricky, and most people either run into serious problems sooner or later, or they just quit in despair. Often times, perhaps most of the time, our wiki-processes work very well in resolving problems, but it is not at all uncommon for people to be treated unfairly, even terribly, by administrators, and we should not pretend that this system we've created is anywhere near perfect. Everyking (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
The system is not perfect. Do some administrators have an attitude and misuse their tools? Yes. Is there always a route to overcome and resolve conflict? No, not always. Is that frustrating? Yep. But some editors do try. ... An abusive admin is not a content dispute. Claiming you were unjustly blocked is not a content dispute. Complaining about an admin on AN is likely to be seen somewhat skeptically by most unless a clear cut case and seems to be a dead end to many and don't bother. --Mark Miller (talk) 02:09, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
It's not exceptional. Been editing for 6+ years, with 25K+ edits to articles (a lot of them brought up at WP:ANI and WP:BLP so some degree of controversy is implied), disagreed with established users and admins, and have never been blocked on purpose. The "trick" is to stay calm and civil, be aware of WP:BRD, and make use of Wikipedia's dispute resolution mechanisms (talk pages, noticeboards, WP:ANI, etc.). If no one seems inclined to help you out, perhaps the issue isn't as big as you think it is. --NeilN (talk) 05:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I hope you were never blocked on accident. Many of those routes you mention are strictly content venues, where ANI is for administrative intervention...where an admin has to step in, and BLP of course is to get more eyes and opinions on a situation or article of concern that are not within BLP policy and guidelines (something very important) but not a conflict venue (defining a conflict as being between editors, not directly about content, although indirectly about content). It isn't as much a trick to stay calm, but a trick to know exactly where to take your issue, if you're very sure it is an issue. The best one can do now is find a trusted admin who you can seek some assistance in an informal or formal manner. If your issue is another admin, then you have the AN board where you can formally complain about a specific administrator. But that can make new comers and even some old timers think twice since you are reporting an admin...to an admin. I've worked a good deal through our DR mechanisms, there is no "Conflict" resolution, just "Dispute" resolution. And we define a dispute on Wikipedia as being "content" issues. If two people are simply unable to get along and have active conflicts, we don't tend to deal well with the situation and the personal conflict seems to blow up and end up at arbcom. Everything shouldn't be a "High court" decision and yes...I do see arb com as such, whether that be true or not, but they are our equivalent of a high court of peers. Not a knock against them, just that maybe all such conflicts need not end up on their plate.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
As for me, 26,000 edits, 36% to article space, and I've never been blocked, and not even come close. I've never had an administrator say a mean word to me. My secret? I do my best to follow policies and guidelines, I don't edit war, I try hard to be polite and helpful, I compromise, and I try to resolve disputes instead of escalating them. When things get nasty, I take a break. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:54, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

"A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction into a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day." --Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbes. ----Guy Macon (talk) 08:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia attracts people of varying type and situation. Some with different ways of interacting in this medium of text only. Everyone acting perfectly after hours of research, writing, copy editing, etc. is not always going to happen. It can tire a person out quickly when someone decides to challenge something you feel has legitimate value, sourced reliably etc.. We can expect the best, but we have to admit imperfection exists, help guide it and allow some venting. We can only learn and grow when given the room to make mistakes. Mistakes can always be overcome. Mistakes can always be corrected. In the time I have been on Wikipedia I have learned how to avoid content disputes in a number of ways to avoid content issues needing intervention or mediation. It took a number of...less than cordial exchanges that, eventually, everyone was able to apologize for their own behavior...even after what I thought would simply be the end of all enjoyment on Wikipedia for me. But then I realized that if I was not going to have fun, I might as well admit I was being an idiot for my part and leave it to the others to decide how next to reply. Given the opportunity, most people choose peace and forgiveness...even if the situation is never forgotten. It isn't a zen thing. People just have to naturally find their routes and some personalities may clash and need a lot of room to understand where the other is coming from and how best to work with whatever new tilt that editor may be adding. Maybe that just takes imagination to be able to see how something might work or maybe just patience, but I have blocks. I am not ashamed of them. They're there for the reasons they are there whether they were or were not exactly as black and white as "Doing something wrong". I don't hold much weight to a block log. not really. I have worked well with editors who have never been blocked, and why not be proud of never being blocked? However...I have worked with editors very well who have block logs the length of a feature article. If you are really attempting an honest contribution to content, most good editors can see that and find a way to compromise if they don't agree with it.--Mark Miller (talk) 13:29, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I've been blocked by accident (the admin got me instead of the spammer I was dealing with). But I saw the situation for what it was and had a laugh about it. Much better than trying to stir up drama. And WP:BLPN can occasionally turn into quite the conflict venue, with editors disagreeing on how the policy applies to certain situations and each side wondering about the "competence" of the other. Most boards act the same way, with different areas of focus. --NeilN talk to me 14:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, I have volunteered on a lot of the boards including BLP. Yes, I cannot deny that they can all have their fair share of drama. DR/N, RS/N can be as overwrought as AN/I and some of the worse RFAs. But I would not label them as conflict venues. I very much see conflict as between people and disputes being about content. I separate these as I might in conflict/dispute resolution at a job. A conflict is between people, a dispute is about how to proceed on a project.--Mark Miller (talk) 14:41, 3 February 2014 (UTC)


From Administrators' Noticeboard:

A word from the dispute resolution community about the voluntary nature of dispute resolution: I'm a very frequent volunteer at all levels of content dispute resolution. Participation in dispute resolution is always voluntary and no one may be compelled to participate. To say that backwards, failing to participate in DR is never a matter which should cause an editor to be blocked, banned, or otherwise sanctioned. That does not mean, however, that such a failure cannot be taken into consideration by an administrator or by the community in deciding whether or not an editor is editing in a disruptive manner or in a manner which is not in the best interests of the encyclopedia. Failing to take part in DR is not alone disruptive, just as failing or refusing to discuss one's edits is not alone disruptive, but it can be part of a disruptive pattern. On the other hand the reasons for failing to take part in DR can also be taken into consideration: Frustration with another editor's disruptive editing or other misbehavior can certainly justify a desire to simply not engage with it further. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here, just trying to provide a conceptual framework. Regards, User:TransporterMan, 15:34, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


From Administrators' Noticeboard:

(during discussion of a proposal to block user X) Oppose (enthusiastically). He's already been blocked, didn't seem to help. Maybe we should try something else. NE Ent, April 2014 (UTC)
NE ENT, I trust you since you are a reasonable man and not a former enemy drawn to this ANI looking for blood. What do you like to see different from me. Please be specific. I guarantee you'll get it. X (talk), April 2014 (UTC)
The first thing should probably be to stop expecting Wikipedia to be rational, fair, coherent, consistent, or anything like that. Secondly, if you find contributing to Wikipedia isn't enjoyable, I'd log off until such time (if ever) you find that it might be. Beyond that, it would depend on what specific goals you have moving forward. NE Ent, April 2014 (UTC)


From Wikipedia:Village pump:

Gaming the edit counter with edit wars and user's own user pages:
It seems engaging in edit wars though likely to get a user blocked can give users an extra hundred posts every now and again or more over time. I propose these edits me struck from the edit count to prevent inflating the status of wikipedia users who frequently edit war; I'm also not sure if your own user page should count; otherwise someone can just ramble on their page 6000 times in a weekend and become part of the top 10,000 contributors. Technically that would be in accordance with the rules. Cassandra Truth (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Why bother? Nobody with any sense thinks that raw edit count data indicates much anyway. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Per Andy, who gives a shit? Edit counts are a meaningless thing, and no one who makes any decision that matters at Wikipedia ever looks at them. Like pretty signatures and well designed user pages, edit counters are a mild amusement, but ultimately serve no purpose for building the encyclopedia. --User:Jayron32 19:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Edit counts do matter for when you're applying for more user rights (Article Reviewer needs at least 500 mainspace edits, for example), but generally the sysop doing the approving checks through edits looking for edit wars and such. User:Supernerd11 14:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Ijon Tichy note: Please see Wikipedia:Edit count and Wikipedia: Editcountitis.


From Administrators' Noticeboard - Final remark by admin, closing the discussion thread below:

This is not an admin issue. The anon is directed to actually do something about the article if they find the material so objectionable, as long as it is appropriately sourced. Blackmane (talk) 03:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Shame on you. --- I can see on the list of goverment of all the world that you separate cyprus in 2 goverments..CYPRUS and northen cyprus..You have to learn that northen cyprus is not a regognized state and the only country in the earth that regognize it as a state is turky and guess why..Turks made an invasion in Cyprus and claim north cyprus with violent and they made a war ..They killed many people and childrens they made people of cyprus move out of their houses and you put northern cyprus on list as a state??? SHAME ON YOU I THOUGHT WIKIPEDIA WAS A GOOD SITE BUT ITS NOT...You can wrote the story of cyprus and how turks invade in cyprus and claim our half coutry .....I will wait for correct your the misinformations or i will report wikipedia and i will let many people learn about that who thinks wikipedia is a good site — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.220.197 (talk) 12:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, shame on us - we didn't write Wikipedia, people like YOU did. If there's an error on the article, go to its talkpage, suggest improvements, and provide links to sources that support your changes. That's how Wikipedia works, and that's why we ARE a "good site." User:EatsShootsAndLeaves, 12:16, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
The Northern Cyprus article makes it clear (at the very beginning of the article) that it is a "self-declared state", and further says, "Recognised only by Turkey, Northern Cyprus is considered by the international community as Turkish-occupied territory of the Republic of Cyprus." Did you even read the article? We even have an article called Human rights in Northern Cyprus which documents problems that have occurred in that area. Rather than "reporting Wikipedia" (to whom?!) perhaps you should take the time to actually read what you're complaining about. -- User:Atama, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Ijon Tichy note: there is no 'us vs. them' on Wikipedia. According to WP policy, all WP users are equal members of the community, unless and until a user is permanently banned/ blocked from editing the encyclopedia. Even users who are indefinitely banned or blocked are still considered members of the community.


From the user page of User:Verdana Bold

Why I'm not here -- I'm not here to edit content of any article even remotely controversial. I've gazed in horror at what happens to people who attract the attention of the goon squads that own articles. Jimbo ought to be ashamed of himself for not putting a stop to it, but he's too busy making five grand per speech at colleges like mine and fu cking groupies.
Or maybe I'm just jealous because three girls were in front of me at his motel door and he said he didn't need a fourth. I dunno.







Additional resources for editing WP[edit]

Some resources which may aid in contributing to WP conversations and editing WP articles: