Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems. Before posting: Take a look at these tips for dealing with incivility If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page Try dispute resolution Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly. Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight. When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)
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Wikipediocracy doxxing

Wikipediocracy doxxed a couple users, including myself (though who I am is no secret) and a minor. REDACTED NAMES PER ADMIN REQUEST. I'm not sure if they're Wikipedia editors, but if they are, their actions are wholly unacceptable. Is there any way to find out if these folks are Wikipedia editors? If so, I'd like to see action taken against them. Titanium Dragon (talk) 20:51, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not believe that any of them are current Wikipedia users. The Wikipediocracy is an external website not under the jurisdiction of the Wikipedia in any manner. More often than not though, as in this situation, their editorial 100% nails it, IMO. Tarc (talk) 21:32, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, given that you've insulted everyone who was editing that article and trying to include information about the issue as misogynists, I'm not terribly surprised you agree with them. But your ill behavior is not at issue here. Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry that misogynists feel insulted. Tarc (talk) 23:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

you shouldn't be. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:59, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Interestingly, one other thing we have in common is that, unlike the other users involved in the editing of those pages, we both specifically warned @NorthBySouthBaranof: about his/her behavior. Not sure if it is related. Do you know who these people are, North? Titanium Dragon (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I would warn you about your behavior in attempting to smear living people on the encyclopedia, but that's already been done numerous times by administrators who have had to repeatedly revision-delete your scurrilous nonsense about Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. Given your penchant for making unfounded accusations about them, I'm not surprised that you're making unfounded insinuations about me. The answer is no, by the way. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:39, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a pretty serious allegation, or at least implication. You are understandably upset about what happened, but maybe step back and think about what you are saying, and reserve your anger for the four individuals at Wikipediocracy, one of whom is already indef blocked. Gamaliel (talk) 21:42, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know (or care) who the other three are, but if any of them are still active editors here, I'd support blocks for them. The fact that we cannot regulate what happens at other websites does not mean that we have to put up with the consequences of those happenings, here. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm actually not upset, more... grimly amused? I mean, I've never been doxxed before. Its like a rite of passage! People really hate me! Rather than the casual hatred they reserved for me in the past. I suppose I am somewhat annoyed at them on the other user's behalf, because, well, I'm an adult and used to such people on the internet, but they're a potentially vulnerable minority minor who now has their picture posted for the world to see in conjunction with their user name and some other personal information which could potentially lead to identification in real life (as opposed to the Internet, though it becomes more and more real every day, I suppose). I apologize for the implication; I just noticed it off-handedly while browsing user talk pages of people who were involved, in case the folk in question were users who had been on the page. Some people list their real life names on their Wikipedia profiles, or link to where they work or whatever. I'm glad to hear you weren't involved, North; thanks for your input, and I'm sorry I came off as accusatory. I have noticed you have been more civil recently, and I appreciate that. Titanium Dragon (talk) 22:02, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

On this whole bit, since I am one of the individuals who was supposedly 'doxxed' in this article. It's not all that surprising that people--instead of wishing to conflate or actually dissent with actual arguments, have to refer to finding all the personal information about it. It's a bit weird of an obsession, honestly. I am a real person, you can talk to me, I'm not some robot being inputted some commands by some 'higher up' person, so why wouldn't they fight with an actual idea, a post on my talk page, 'Why did you do X' or 'Y' or 'Z' on this page, and get my real thoughts on it. Instead, they have to use bully tactics, doxxing me and posting information about me. That said, it's obviously more safe for me to not comment about the validity of the information posted, for my safety of course. Tutelary (talk) 22:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• No action can be taken here. Wikipedia cannot regulate offwiki attacks, per WP:NPA#Off-wiki attacks. KonveyorBelt 22:49, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• We can certainly block them here if they aren't already blocked, but unless someone is going to propose a specific on-wiki action, we should close this thread. Gamaliel (talk) 23:16, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Then I propose that we block the ones who aren't already blocked, and then close this thread. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:26, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That was all the action I could really expect/hope for. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't get the logic of people who do stuff like this. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 23:17, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

• Wow. People write My Little Pony fiction? Drmies (talk) 00:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Lots of them. FIMFiction has north of a billion (yes, with a b) words of pony fanfiction on it. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• A link to some explanation of what the hell you all mean by "doxxing" would be helpful for those unfamiliar with this neologism. See Doxing. Otherwise we might assume it was related to "becoming a Doxy:" Floozy, prostitute, mistress. Edison (talk) 00:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Don't be such a luddite, Edison, with your old-fashioned "dictionary" full of dead, stupid words. Besides, you're wrong: a "doxy" is clearly a more economical version of User:Roxy the dog, with some metathesis or sumpin' thrown in for good measure. Drmies (talk) 01:06, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Isn't a doxy a little winged creature that Mrs. Weasley was cleaning out of Sirius' house? Btw, @Tryptofish:, you reverted my attempt to wrap this up nicely, so care to explain what you hope to accomplish by keeping this open? Tarc (talk) 01:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
      • I trust that is no longer a serious question. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
        • Why isn't it a serious question? What administrative action are you seeking here? Tarc (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Well, it's obvious to me. Take a look at my 23:26 comment. If you wanted to wrap it up, I wonder why you have continued to comment afterwards, and in any case, you were more than a wee bit "involved". --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hey, I resemble that remark. -Doxy the rog™ (resonate) 03:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

• One of the editors involved in the GamerGate article dispute, Tarc, apparently commented this doxxing article in an edit summary when reverting one of the editors allegedly doxxed: "rv: Good for you to get together some editors who apparently squeezed a non-existent thing out of non-existent sources. It doesn't make t any more real, and it looks like outside eyes are finally getting in on this." I can't interpret that other than an endorsement or approval of the doxxing. Are these kind of shots at the editors mentioned in the article acceptable? --Pudeo' 03:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm pretty sure he's just talking about other editors looking at the article; people often refer to getting "other eyes" on stuff. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Though it should be noted that Tarc deliberately said (On Wikipediocracy, with the same name) I had fun on Wikipediocracy for awhile pretending to be a black conservative. Can’t really say why or when it started, it just kind of came about during some discussion or other, that it’d be fun to be something else and argue as if that was important. So I rolled with it. “As a black man…” can be quite an argument-buster if wielded correctly.

We can smell our own; Tutelary is complexly, Grade-A full of shit.

As for the rest of the rabble at the Zoe Quinn and related articles, it’s a continuation of the original harassment she endured; the overlap of white, single 18-35 yr olds who are both gamers and Wikipedians is sizable. Since Tarc is a Wikipedia editor, can anything be done about this comment? Tutelary (talk) 10:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

How do you know that that wasn't someone who used Tarc's name to get him into trouble on Wikipedia? If we rely on Wikipediocracy comments to block Wikipedia users then Reddit comments are grounds for blocking as well. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 10:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I see that someone made a point about this by imposing as me on Wikipediocracy and commenting about my blocks, and even calling Drmies a 'nutjob' and such and complaining about an apparent 'feminist dominance' on here. This is growing to be quick harassment, only thing that's missing is the harassing phone calls. Tutelary (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is a problem with the anonymous comment section of a blog; anyone can be anyone, identity is not provable. Perhaps this will be one of those proverbial "teachable moments", and going forward you will be less dismissive of the harassment endured by Quinn, Sarkeesian, et al... Tarc (talk) 15:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Nobody on Wikipedia is harassing people. Where do you draw the line between criticism and harassment? Because it's a problem if people are intimidated against calling out shitty/abusive behavior when they see it. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 17:38, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I call BS. Every intentional violation of BLP is an act of harassment, as far as I'm concerned. Ask around about what Qworty was doing: it was harassment. Drmies (talk) 18:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

... and Qworty's little game was exposed by Wikipediocracy and its so-called "doxxing," I remind everyone. Then Qworty acknowledged the accuracy of this on-wiki and only then was the community capable of doing anything. So-called doxxing has its place and Wikipediocracy doesn't engage in it either frequently or lightly. Carrite (talk) 14:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Evidence suggests, TD, that you were outed because you attracted attention by behaving badly in public and by leaving a trail which made it easy to tie your behavior, good or bad, into a single identity with a real-world name. That's your fault, and in the real world, pointing over at Wikipediocracy and bellowing "they outed me!" is either a sign that you don't really care that they did that, or an act of colossal stupidity. Either way, the revenge you seek here is a childishness which should be disregarded in favor of a consideration of your sins at the articles in question, where you apparently are pursuing some sort of vendetta. Mangoe (talk) 12:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you seriously blaming him for getting doxed? Tutelary (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Why, yes, I am. People who don't act like that don't motivate others to find out why they are acting that way, and those who are so promiscuous with their identity do not find such curiosity so easily satisfied. Mangoe (talk) 17:01, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It's an interesting moral quandary, isn't it? On the one hand, WP:OUTING is strongly forbidden by site policy, and it causes people significant distress. Some "outings" appear to have served no greater purpose than satisfying the sadism or vindictiveness of some obsessive grudge-bearer. On the other hand, Wikipediocracy contributors have also successfully identified several cases of serious abuse of Wikipedia, where repellent behavior would have continued indefinitely if not for Wikipediocracy's "outing" (the cases I have in mind are those of Qworty (talk · contribs) and Little green rosetta (talk · contribs), although the latter seems to be active again now with an alternate account). We actually owe Wikipediocracy a debt of gratitude for calling attention to those cases, because these "outings" served a constructive purpose and likely reduced the real-life harm these individuals had caused. So... like most real-life ethical questions, it's not as black-and-white as one would like to believe. MastCell ^Talk 17:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

As someone who got doxxed for "behaving badly" by having opinions about BLPs, you can fuck right off with that. The real world is the real world, but doxxing isn't some proportionate punishment meted out for sins, real or imagined. It's cowardly bullshit designed to chill speech and heap scorn on people from afar. Protonk (talk) 19:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this is a response to me (based on the indenting, I'm guessing it's not), but in any case I'd put your "outing" firmly in the category of "served no greater purpose than satisfying the sadism or vindictiveness of some obsessive grudge-bearer." I'm sorry if I implied otherwise. MastCell ^Talk 19:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It was not directed at you. I was torn between just indenting for threading or pinging, but I figured it was less justifiable to "ping" someone and tell them to fuck off than it would be to just say it. Protonk (talk) 19:49, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

To respond to your comments that it isn't always black and white, that is true but in a really unpelasant way. To the person doing the doxxing, it's often completely black and white. Back in the day BLP apostasy was exactly that in the eyes of folks at WR and other places. BLPs were a struggle for the heart of the project and represented a real potential damage to humans based on anonymous work. We can look at them and say that this manichean view was unfounded, but they don't feel that way. The folks at Wikipediocracy are likewise concerned over sexism and harassment getting "justified" in the encyclopedia. Their concern "looks" better to us (after all, the gamer gate stuff is disgusting, but that's a story for another time), so we might be more inclined to view the outing as a necessary journalistic evil. But I don't think we need to dig too far into the piece to see that characterization as strained. The run down on TD from that article is basically "look at this fucking loser", which is par for the course with outing articles. Protonk (talk) 19:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It's disappointing that nothing besides a lot of talk is going to come of this, but "The real world is the real world, but doxxing isn't some proportionate punishment meted out for sins, real or imagined. It's cowardly bullshit designed to chill speech and heap scorn on people from afar." I couldn't put it any better than that. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Given that none of you are meant to be speechifying in relation to BLPs, either in articles or talkpages, then chilling of such speech would seem to be a good thing and in accordance with this site's principles. John lilburne (talk) 23:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@John lilburne: I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Protonk (talk) 23:12, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:BLPN is that-a-way. Doxxing people is not the way to correct BLP problems. In fact, the spirit of WP:BLP is that living persons should be treated with respect, and even Wikipedia editors are living persons. meta:Privacy is another of this site's principles. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

When it comes to BLPs no one should be engaging in any form of agenda pushing. The talk page of Quinn is an object lesson in agenda pushing, attempts to get inappropriate sources accepted, character assassination, and wearisome arguing. Such speech has, according to the rules, no place here. If no one here will get the house in order and freeze it out don't complain when outside forces do the job for you all. John lilburne (talk) 23:37, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

@John lilburne: I was outed for being an admin and having the "wrong" opinion on wikipedia BLP policy and expressing that opinion in RfCs and on project talk pages. Not discussing subjects or whatever else. My point above was about the entirely bullshit notion that getting doxxed by some random person with an axe to grind is karmic punishment for "bad" behavior. If it is, it is only so accidentally. The main function is to make the outed person look small and feel vulnerable. Protonk (talk) 23:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Well like most anything n the world, it isn't simply black or simply white; "doxxing" itself isn't an inherently evil act. It sounds like your situation was done to you out of vengefulness and spite, which isn't cool at all, and I sympathize if you were doing something good here. There are other situations, e.g. Qworty, where the revelation of an editor's identity was a good thing, as it unmasked some rather nefarious deeds. The right to privacy here isn't quite the same as a right to anonymity. Tarc (talk) 23:51, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

>Well like most anything n the world, it isn't simply black or simply white; "doxxing" itself isn't an inherently evil act.

It kind of is. If you have a specific criticism on someone, make that criticism. But doxxing is dumping a huge amount of info for the purposes of humiliation or intimidation. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 00:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it kind of isn't. Per my example above, Qworty was rightly shamed and driven from the project. That was about a textbook example of "good doxxing" as one can find. Tarc (talk) 01:00, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what Qworty was, but if he was being criticized for a specific set of behaviors that's not doxxing. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 20:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Given that it is my contention that anyone editing BLP content ought not to be anonymous, that at the very least they should have there contact details held on file by the WMF I'm hardly going to be sympathetic about the doxxing of an admin. Sometimes it might be karmic punishment, sometimes revenge, sometimes simply for the LOLZ, it makes no difference. People put controversial things online under their own name all the time without any ill consequences. You deal with any harassment as it happens and the WMF should protect those that are targeted, but having the RL identity of a WP administrator or participant in BLPs isn't harrassment. You are relying on security by obscurity, that is really the wrong way of doing it. Al most all of you can be doxxed by a determined set of people. John lilburne (talk) 09:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@Mangoe:: The real concern with it is A) it is against the rules, B) chilling effects, and C) that they doxxed someone else who, according to them, was underaged and (possibly) transgendered. As I noted, I don't actually care that they doxxed me in the abstract, but if they were Wikipedia users who were engaging in conversation with me on the article (they weren't) and they wrote an outside hit piece on me, that would obviously be an issue, no? Especially if they were willing to do it against people who, you know, did care. The allegations in the article were false in any event; indeed, it was noted that several of the revdels were done in error, because they were, in fact, sourced and thus probably weren't necessary. A couple of them were probably necessary, but they were not done maliciously, and we discussed it on the talk page. The rest of their accusations were... what, exactly? That I was fat and jealous of Zoe Quinn, despite not even working on video game development? Given that the discussions can be seen over on the talk pages for Zoe Quinn and GamerGate, you should really look there to see whether they're, well, just plain old wrong. As they are. They're angry more or less because their POV is that it is all sexist misogyny; they are fanatics. The reality is that the reliable sources paint a much more complicated picture, with claims of misogyny being only one side of the story - the other side being that it is about something else. Actually, it is really about five or six different stories at this point, because the reality is that more or less Zoe Quinn was the ignition point for a lot of pre-existing conflicts in the gaming community, regarding corruption, nepotism, misogyny, the so-called "social justice warriors", insulting gamers, general toxicity of the community, and several other things. It is kind of stupid. But, well, I edit stuff about current events sometimes. It just so happens that this is a particularly dumb one which ended up becoming huge thanks to early attempts at censorship causing the Streisand Effect. At this point, it is being noted by the Taiwanese press as being worrisome because they're afraid that if people don't make nice by the holiday season, it might negatively affect console sales because people will see the nastiness and choose not to buy consoles (whose components are sourced in Taiwan), and instead buy tablets (which are mostly made in China). All this, over a dumb fight on the internet. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:21, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I just read the Wikipediocracy blog piece that gave rise to this ANI thread. I'm no fan of insults to women's dignity, and I think that a lot of what is in the piece does a positive service (as indeed many of the blog pieces there do, in my opinion, because anything as big as Wikipedia can do with some skeptical watching). However, I think a useful thought experiment is to read the piece while mentally deleting all of the actual naming of editors. Go ahead, say someone is such-and-such years old, and they previously claimed to be such-and-such a gender, and so forth – but just leave out the personally identifying information. In terms of investigative journalism, the beneficial effect would have been exactly the same. But the addition of actually identifying private individuals (I wonder if someone could sue Wikipediocracy for defamation?) just makes it look like 4chan. Maybe the people at Wikipediocracy think that they are big impressive defenders of integrity who put Wikipedia's house in order, but to me the naming just makes them look like a couple of teenage bullies. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

This whole conversation almost makes me glad I didn't know better than to use my real name when registered 8 years ago, instead of User:MsSmartyPants or something appropriate. Of course it also makes me wonder what to do when such information is revealed and an editor is being disruptive or POV pushing to the max. I guess nothing, except some how or other let them know that you know? Hmmmmm... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:08, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Pudeo?

Um, regarding this edit, which some unknown "Pudeo" decided to harp on...you have it wrong. "outside eyes are finally getting in on this" referred to other Wikipedians who had never been a part of older discussions at 2014 Isla Vista killings, not anyone off-site. It has nothing to do with "doxxing", and doesn't even have a connection to the Gamergate stuff we're talking about here. Tarc (talk) 12:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. Titanium Dragon already corrected me on that. And heh, don't be so confused if "unknown" editors comment here - that's the reason why issues are posted to ANI in the first place. --Pudeo' 14:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

A question

If such an issue reveals that a Wikipedia user, through looking at their contributions to an external site, has a conflict of interest or other viewpoint that makes them incompatible with editing certain Wikipedia articles, is that sufficient reason to take action here? I'm not entirely sure if this has occurred before, but I'm sure it probably has. Black Kite (talk) 18:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

you're not sure but you're sure? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Well spotted. Typing at the same time as being harassed by daughter#1 to help with her Maths homework. Black Kite (talk) 18:43, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to ping/link and dredge up old drama, but yea, a year or so ago, Arbcom banned a user for edits made to Encyclopedia Dramatica regarding another Wikipedian. BTW, file an ANI on your kid for harassment, they'll send her to bed without supper. (in case there'a any confusion, yes, that is a joke) Tarc (talk) 19:40, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

In 2011, a user was indef blocked for canvassing on the men's rights site antimisandry.com and for using WP:Socks. The SPI was inconclusive but the off-wiki canvassing was too obvious to ignore. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Much as this sort of thing makes me uncomfortable, if the allegations that certain editors are pursuing an agenda against a BLP subject are true (I haven't evaluated the allegations beyond skimming the WO blog post), then I would say we most certainly should take action here. Most of us are here to build a neutral reference work. We get very hot under the collar about "paid editing" or "paid advocacy" but the corporate spammers are usually quite easy to spot and block. It seems to me that we should get much hotter under the collar about subtle, insidious campaigning which undermines our values of neutrality, especially when it is directed at subjects who are real people whose lives and personal and professional reputations could be affected by a slanted Wikipedia article. Or do we have to wait for another Seigenthaler incident and a knee-jerk reaction to adverse publicity? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:27, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

While that sounds wonderful, if we really go after all the subtle, insidious campaigning which undermines our values of neutrality in addition to the more obvious examples then there will be few editors left to contribute to this site.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

It would be a start to restrict BLP editing to editors who have demonstrated that they can edit biographies responsibly. (This could be a separate user right.) As it is, Wikipedia is throwing BLPs to the vultures to pick and fight over. Andreas JN466 03:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Can we take a binding vote on this right now? Also, could WP administrators please start enforcing the WP:NPOV policy? In my eight years here I don't think I've ever seen ad admin step up and openly enforce that policy. Cla68 (talk) 05:23, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Andreas, could that BLP user right be proposed somewhere? We could extend it to all BLPs (though it would stop mistakes from being fixed, including by the subject), or use it as a new layer of protection for any BLP deemed problematic. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 13:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Found your proposal on the mailing list, March 2011. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:04, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

This is an excellent idea. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

An intriguing idea. How does someone demonstrate that they can edit biographies responsibly when they're not allowed to edit them until they've demonstrated it? GoldenRing (talk) 06:12, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Submission of responsibly written and appropriately sourced biographies through AfC, for example, or solid research contributions to BLP talk pages. Andreas JN466 12:57, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, it still smells a lot like the established BLP club marking their turf. How is this consistent with the third pillar? GoldenRing (talk) 00:56, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not about marking turf; it's about making use of the flexibility demanded by the fifth pillar in order not to have fucked-up biographies that make a mockery of the second pillar and aren't consistent with anything in the Foundation's charitable mission. Andreas JN466 06:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You can get in trouble for your behavior off-site, and I think that's absolutely okay. And if you admit to being paid or whatever to edit articles, or otherwise engaging in behavior against the rules, using off-site posting as evidence is perfectly acceptable. That being said, we should not be barring people from articles simply because they have some sort of point of view; editors are allowed to have points of view. You have points of view, I have points of view, we all have points of view. That's fine. What is a problem is when it affects Wikipedia. The reality is that the people most likely to edit articles are people who are most interested in them, which is going to inevitably and invariably mean that they have a point of view on them. The problem comes when they're unable to act as responsible editors of Wikipedia. As long as they are WP:CIVIL, maintain a WP:NPOV in the articles (remember, editors can have points of view, but articles cannot), and otherwise behave within the rules, there's no reason to ban them. In any case, it would benefit people for making false aliases for the sole purpose of editing Wikipedia to make it impossible to trace back their opinions and thus result in such bans, which is highly undesirable - having traceability is both useful and worthwhile. Frankly, if you conduct yourself poorly on Wikipedia and you have an obvious point of view, we can deal with it easily enough - and indeed, more easily than if we institute such a thing.

It also would encourage people to write attack pieces like this if they were "rewarded" by getting revenge on people they didn't like, which would be extremely bad. You don't want to encourage negative behavior.

The fact that Tarc commented on that article approvingly, for instance, should not be grounds for banning him from editing those articles - but repeatedly calling people misogynists on the talk page and elsewhere would warrant action, because at that point, he'd be breaking actual rules (namely, against civility on Wikipedia). I don't care if he is pro-social justice, and neither should anyone else; the problem comes when it results in edit wars, incivility, excessive POV pushing, ect. which are all actions on Wikipedia.

We have rules against outing people and suchlike for a reason, and we definitely should not encourage people to do so. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:57, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

When editors actively push an agenda that could reasonably be construed as misogynistic, in tone or intent, said editors do not get to hide behind civility shields, I'm afraid. Tarc (talk) 12:22, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of anyone's agenda, WP:CIVIL is one of the Five Pillars and those who violate it are violating policy, I'm afraid. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:01, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

What if an editor admits to hacking into others computers? I'd be wary opening links posted by an editor like that, I think it puts other Wikipedia editors at risk --81.129.126.66 (talk) 15:40, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

If someone is admitting to engaging in illegal activity, at that point the police should be involved and I would recommend contacting the police/FBI/whatever agency is relevant in whatever country the user is from. People who post malicious/harmful links on Wikipedia tend to get banned rather quickly; reporting such incidents to admins is very important. Incidentally, if you are referring to the user who I think you're referring to with this, you can relax; the person who claims to be a hacker who uses the same username on various messageboards started using it back in 2007, while the Wikipedia user used a different handle until 2014, and they aren't the same gender; they're almost certainly different people, especially given the Wikipedia user's supposed age. A lot of people happen to have the same usernames on the internet; I may be the most prominent Titanium Dragon, for instance, but Titanium-Dragon (with the hyphen) on tumblr is not me, and there is a WoW clan which uses my name which I am unrelated to, having never even played the game. I've actually spoken to several folks who use my name over the years, making jokes with them about who the real one was. Titanium Dragon (talk) 19:28, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Your name consists of two common words, however. When someone's shared handle consists of a non-English word and exactly the same 3-digit number, and they have clearly the same interests (right down to individual people) on more than one website, then I can think we can pretty much assume they're the same person. Not to mention there has been further links posted off-wiki, which I won't repeat but are 100% convincing. Black Kite (talk) 19:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

@Black Kite:: While I've been ignoring this because the issue has been resolved (and because I've been busy doing other, much more enjoyable things than argue with folks on Wikipedia), I will note that someone sent me a private message on Twitter which more or less confirms that said user is the same person. However, it also confirms that they're telling the truth on their profile; they identify as female, and have done so elsewhere since as of at least March of this year, using the same name and everything. As long as they're behaving themselves on Wikipedia, I don't really care who they "really are" and what they self identify as. If someone says that they're a lobster, I'm fine with that, as long as they don't try and edit all the articles about seafood to complain about the terrors of cooking their people alive and try to put seafood boil into Category:Genocide. Titanium Dragon (talk) 06:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You're sure of that? [1] --81.129.126.66 (talk) 21:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

A new game and a suggestion

Anyone want to guess who User:PseudoSomething is? Black Kite (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

• This is what has become of ANI? - ^theWOLFchild 07:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Yeah, I know it's not difficult. Can I suggest, apart from the full protection and RD2 that is covering those four articles now, we simply indef any "new" editor who heads straight for those articles and starts with the misogynistic crap. There's only two possible reasons for it; they're a sock of another editor, or they're a meatpuppet. In neither case do I see that we're losing anything here. Black Kite (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Who am I supposed to be? Honestly? This is the first time I have ever made an account on Wikipedia. That is why I haven't even tried to touch the edit button on an article. I am trying to speak on behalf of the GG side because of a lot of the crap that has been said about us. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PseudoSomething (talk • contribs) 18:36, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, of course. Familiarity with Wikipedia (i.e. linking, indenting, reliable sources) whilst claiming you don't really know how it works, and then heading straight for another editor with the same criticisms as other accounts. Oh, and a user page that says "I'm New". Please don't take us to be stupid people. Black Kite (talk) 18:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I still have no idea who you think I am. I link to things because you kinda need proof behind it. I indent because I see everyone else doing it, and you add 1 : on each time you want to post under someone. Its just formatting, and every site has different formatting. Why should I post if I am going to fuck up the formatting of a ton of other people? I said my say to Tarc because he was pushing a biased POV and North (I think that is their name), because of my concerns. I put "I am New" in my user profile because I thought you needed to have that made for you to have a talk page, in case anyone needed to post something on there. Your calling me out for studying the formatting of the site before posting, for linking proof behind what I say, and for something I made to try to make sure I am within the confides of communications. PseudoSomething (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Just another sock/meatpuppet arrived to try to ram the "angry gamer POV" into the articles in question, showing up with an instant familiarity with both the Wikipedia and who's who in discussions that precede his alleged "new" arrival. WP:RBI and keep an eye out for the next one. Tarc (talk) 19:05, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

So far, yall have called me a misogynist, a sockpuppet/meatpuppet (I dont even know what the hell a meat pupper is), have said my learning the protocols of Wikipedia before posting were bad, I havent even edited an article and didn't plan on it, and your trying to silence me. Wikipedia can do IP's right? Since you would only find this account on my home IP. Is this how all Wikipedia users are, or just a minority? I would think a minority, because the admin on the GamerGate page actually talked to me last night (or was it the night before), and listened to my say on things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PseudoSomething (talk • contribs) 19:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Meatpuppet: (noun). A person or persons canvassed offsite in an attempt to sway consensus in the meatpuppeteer's favor. Etymology: a sockpuppet made of meat. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 19:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

What, you knew what all these things about Wikipedia were straight away (to which we can add "pushing a biased POV" and a clear knowledge of Checkuser), but you didn't know what a meatpuppet was? That's poor research. Black Kite (talk) 19:13, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I knew what a biased POV is because I talked about biased POV when others try to explain about GamerGate without providing the right info. Its a Point of View that is biased. What is wrong with that? PseudoSomething (talk) 19:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I will note that while PS's contributions are likely from the push from outside WP to try to balance the article (eg a bit of meatpuppetry), they have not tried to edit war , haven't put BLP in the talk page, and are provided some food for thought when the article gets unlocked, which I'm happy to listen to and consider. Yes, some of the behavior is consistent with socks but without other evidence and signs of disruption, we can't do much either. --MASEM (t) 19:38, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for helping Masem, I felt incredibly alarmed when this happened and didn't know what to do, honestly. I am trying to see how I can help balance the article, and I didn't even want to edit the article because of me being on the other side. So thank you for helping, it kinda calmed my nerves on this whole thing. PseudoSomething (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Holy shit guys, this is the reason why Wikipedia becomes a closed garden of old boys and can't get new editors. Am I now supposed to roll my eyes every time the Wikipedia Signpost complains that new editor statistics are going the wrong way? The moment someone new comes along to a controversial topic that's obviously making internet headlines, people are quick to jump on them, use disparaging epithets like "angry gamer" (thanks Tarc), and accuse them of being the neckbeard nazis. Assume good faith, you have no idea whether or not they are a genuine editor or an agenda troll; if they really are new, lead them to the right path (you guys were once newcomers to Wikipedia as well, stop pretending you guys were born with the knowledge of how Wikipedia works), and if they really are trolls, then give them enough rope to let them hang themselves. What I'm seeing here is sickening. --benlisquare_T•C•E 19:44, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, AGF only goes so far. When a brand new editor comes to a - let's face it - in the scheme of things fairly obscure article, displays obvious knowledge of Wikipedia, and takes up a theme of righting great wrongs exactly where another editor hsas left it - to the point of attacking exactly the same people for exactly the same things - then you have to say, either this is the same person, or there is meatpuppetry going on. There is AGF, and then there is naivete. Black Kite (talk) 20:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't call me naïve, and don't spin the situation to make it look like what people here are doing is completely justified. The #GamerGate hashtag was the top trending tag on Twitter for a significant period of time, until it was dwarfed by the #Destiny hashtag for a day (albeit still remaining active, and still has been ever since Adam Baldwin started the trend). Everyone interested in videogames and their dog knows about GamerGate, it's hardly a niche topic. For a scandal of proportions like this, it's a no brainer that people with opinions will come to Wikipedia, create new accounts, and make posts on the talk page about their opinions on the matter. People are using the boogeyman tactic because it's a convenient one. AGF is your responsibility, as a member of this community. --benlisquare_T•C•E 09:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

And those people will immediately pick one of the other contributing editors out (who hasn't actually contributed since their account was created) and start attacking them in exactly the same way as previous accounts, will they? OK then, that's clearly a total coincidence. Silly me. Black Kite (talk) 17:29, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you benlisquare. I really came to try to have the voice of the other side heard because it was a controversial issue, but I didn't even think of editing the article because I am on the other side of the topic. I felt extremely alarmed and kinda felt like crap since I was being told I was a misogynist, sock puppet, and meat puppet days after I created an account, the mocking from them didn't help either. I gonna do my best to get up on the WP guidelines though and see what I can do. Thank you. PseudoSomething (talk) 20:14, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

FYI, between the actual doxxing, and the reporting of said doxxing, there might be a bunch of newbies on the article. So try not to WP:BITE the newbies. They're very likely to perceive it as censorship/harassment, seeing as that is the mentality they're likely coming from. If they don't understand stuff, be gentle. Dunno about this particular user, but people should try to be nice in general. Incidentally, the idea of the point of view and the neutral point of view being important are actually fairly well understood by many random folks on the internet who are completely unrelated to Wikipedia; they teach about it in school in the US. Indeed, one of the reasons that many of the gamers are so upset is precisely because they feel that many articles written by the gaming press do not adopt a neutral point of view. Just an FYI; familiarity with the NPOV is hardly surprising amongst this bunch. We may also see an influx of SJW types, who should be treated the same way as we treat the gamers. Titanium Dragon (talk) 19:39, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Titanium. I actually came before the doxxing, but wanted to make my voice heard about the other side, I didn't even think of editing the article. Your right though, Bias was just easily seen, and it was happening in the article. I didn't even want to edit it because I have bias on the other spectrum. I just wanted to provide the counter point of view.PseudoSomething (talk) 20:12, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

I propose we site-ban Tutelary, Titanium Dragon and anyone else trying to smear the defamation of Quinn over this encyclopedia. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Add PseudoSomething to that list. I've just read through Talk:GamerGate. How much more time of genuine encyclopedia-builders is going to be consumed by these POV-pushers? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I propose that you stop proposing site bans for people who have committed the crime of commenting on a talk page. —Xezbeth (talk) 13:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You say that like I propose site bans all the time. I'm pretty sure it's the second time in 8 years I've ever made such a proposal. And I'm proposing they be banned because they're here trying to defame one of our BLP subjects. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd oppose such draconian bans. You're essentially silencing anyone who wishes to question the current state of the article, under the guise of "defamation". Exactly what defaming posts have these people made on the talk page? Above, there have been allegations by Black Kite that these users spew, quote, "misogynistic crap". Where exactly is this misogynistic crap on the talk page? I don't see it. I haven't seen any hate speech against women at all by these individuals; sure, they may have opinions that differ from other people, but that is not misogyny. I'd like to see you directly address and explain exactly what part of these editors' posts are so defamatory. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:01, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Not their defamation, the defamation and invasion of privacy that is the the root of this piece of misogynistic shit. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:13, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

"misogynistic shit" - again, you're throwing buzzwords at me, instead of explaining your position properly. What words have these editors said that justify a ban? Where have women been attacked? These editors are here because they believe that the page is imbalanced, and are trying to tell their personal opinions on the matter. Discussion is the core aspect of any constructive negotiation, you need to understand what they think while they need to understand what you think. Conveniently silencing them instead of addressing their points and refuting them is one of the most underhanded things you can do. Picture this: You are debating with an Armenian genocide denialist. Would you rather have a rational discussion with him, addressing each others' points, or would you prefer that he screams "AMERICAN IMPERIALIST DOG! TURKISH HISTORY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!" at you over and over again? Because that is exactly what's going on here. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:19, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

There is zero problem if the editors have a clear agenda, one that if they spelled it out, would be completely against BLP, but their behavior on wiki is all within the lines of BLP and they are not being disruptive or the like. If they are trying to back up what they think personally with claims from usable RS that support part of what they think and avoid delving into FRINGE, what is wrong with that? So far, save for a few IPs that were dealth with quickly, while I can easily read who is on what side and point out things we have to be careful with, there's no statements on the talk page against BLP, nor anyone being disruptive. AGF has to apply unless there's clearer evidence of a problem. --MASEM (t) 14:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean like restoring BLP violations on the Anita Sarkeesian page and IP gossip at Talk:Zoe Quinn or adding hearsay about the suicide of Amanda Todd or defending statements like this one about Amanda Filipacchi? I'm not sure if you consider the Journal of New Male Studies for Michael Kimmel's BLP or the ex-boyfriend's blog for Zoe Quinn's BLP "usable" sources, but Tutelary doesn't consider the sources unusable in those BLP contexts just because they're biased. Or how about the Men's Rights Agency? And that's not taking the information about the editor into consideration that would get me accused of "outing" them. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 17:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• I support a siteban for Tutelary per NOTHERE (in fact I was hoping the thread above would produce a consensus as to whether the off-wiki evidence can be used to justify a block). At most, I'd support a page/topic ban for Titanium Dragon because he seems to have an interest n contribution to Wikipedia beyond their slightly unhealthy fixation on this topic (though asking them to walk away voluntarily might have the same effect). I'm inclined to AGF (for now) on PseudoSomething (unless somebody wants to present more evidence), and I suggest we semi-protect all the pages (including talk pages) involved until this nonsense dies down an that admins closely monitor them and be prepared to sanction any editor who does not conduct themselves appropriately on those pages. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Talk pages should never be semi-protected if the mainspace article is protected. A good faith IP editor wants to fix a spelling error, but can't use {{edit semi-protected}}. What then? Wikipedia is supposed to be the free encyclopedia that anyone can contribute to, not your secret club of elite brothers. The administrative team is more than capable enough in dealing with troublemakers should they pop their heads out of the woodwork, blocking drive-by IP offenders who post any BLP-violating material on the relevant pages should be effective enough. --benlisquare_T•C•E 14:22, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• My secret club of elite brothers? If I was running a secret club of elite brothers, I'd have one of my secret elite brothers secretly and elitely remove you from the secret, elite club and secretly and elitely oversight that comment so that I could secretly and elitely get my way. Oh, and they'd go to WP:RFED to ask a member of the secret club of elite brothers to secretly and elitely make the edit for them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Looking at both Tutelary's and Titanium Dragon's long-term edit history, they are not at all limited to this topic and especially in the case of Titanium Dragon I can't see he has even edited this topic before. Calling that an "unhealthy fixation" is simply false and incivil. I might add that one editor, who was in the other POV camp than Tutelary, did almost 500 edits related to Zoe Quinn/GamerGate in a few days. You're not calling him NOTHERE and fixated because...? It is also a bit nasty that doxxing is not taken with due seriousness and the thread is tried to turn into a boomerang just because you seem to personally disagree with their position in a content dispute. Get a grip, HJ Mitchell. --Pudeo' 15:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• What makes you think I gave a flying fuck about anyone's position in a content dispute? Editors should conduct themselves properly, both with regard to other editors and with regard to the subjects of articles, and if they don't, I have no qualms about sanctioning them. Oh, and in the case of Tutelary, pretending to be somebody else so you can push your POV is despicable and (in my opinion) ample grounds for a siteban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have -not- impersonated anyone else, my name is Danielle and I am a woman, and you referring to me by male pronouns is especially offensive given that the only institution to express that view is Wikipediocracy, the institution which doxed me. Please don't do it again. Oh, and how is expressing a different opinion 'POV pushing'? Do you have any on-site proof of this at all? Period? Tutelary (talk) 15:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Where have I referred to you using male pronouns? If I have, it was unintentional—I try to make a point of using gender-neutral pronouns except where I know somebody has a preference. As to "on-site proof", that is precisely the point of this discussion, isn't it? If there was sufficient on-wiki evidence, you'd be indef'd right now; we're currently discussing whether the off-wiki evidence is sufficient presents grounds to ban you. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:45, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Taking into account benlinsquare's sage advice, I'll now support the very wise HJ Mitchell's more modest suggestion (minus the talk page semi-protection, per benlinsquare, again). --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 14:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You're going to support site banning me? If anything other than doxxing me and harassing me, what did the Wikipediocracy state? They looked into where I edited the most. That's -nothing- in support of a sanction. I'm sure that a good amount of people have tons of edits to Barrack Obama's article, yet unless there is any problems with those edits, they should absolutely not be sanctioned for merely being active on those pages. Expressing a different opinion than other editors on an article/talk page is also not a crime that is punishable by death. Obvious oppose by me. Tutelary (talk) 15:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Is that you posting on the hacking forum? What is the risk that you might hack other editors here and steal their bank details in that case? --109.148.125.244 (talk) 16:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary

• Given the extremely convincing evidence posted elsewhere, Tutelary needs, at the very least, a topic ban from any BLP. Frankly a site ban would be easier, but this is a minimum. I do not see an urgent issue with Titanium Dragon at this moment - they have moved away from the problems which led to their previous edits being rev-deleted. If you respond to this with a Support, please identify your preferred sanction. Thanks. Black Kite (talk) 17:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)m

What is the 'extremely convincing evidence' which you seem to have not posted? There needs to be extremely convincing evidence to justify sanctions against me, and I have not seen a single argument presented or a single set of diffs that I am disruptive in any way shape or form. There needs to be -evidence- and there is an extreme lack there of to justify sanctions. Obvious oppose. Tutelary (talk) 18:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban with urging to edit somewhere less controversial. KonveyorBelt 17:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support siteban/indefinite block (as above). If and only if that's not possible, I'd support a BLP ban, though it's woefully inadequate. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:48, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose What an awesome bandwagon. Something that is posted "elsewhere" but is not linked to from here cannot be used as justification here. --Kyohyi (talk) 18:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Wrong, per precedent. Black Kite (talk) 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose insufficient evidence, has a very short block log (one short block that was good-faith unblocked). Just because someone has edited BLP articles and some of that information has been removed on BLP grounds (you know many living persons are controversial, right?) there's no reason and even so there is no pattern here. It is also disturbing that somehow this ANI thread (that wasn't even started by Tutelary) has become an absurd boomerang with no protection for those who were the targets of the doxxing, even using the doxxing article alleged information for borderline-harrassment. Exactly what related to GamerGate would warrant the topic here? How is this vote related to this ANI thread? --Pudeo' 19:15, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. Knowing full well that this will probably only mean they'll be back with another account tomorrow. (Will support BLP topic ban if and only if site ban does not pass.) Andreas JN466 19:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• What evidence or implications there are that this user has been involved in sockpuppeting or would do so? --Pudeo' 20:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - Anything to pry one of the misogynist warriors away from the battleground is a good move, as this user is clearly here to see that their anti-Quinn/Sarkeesian, etc... point-of-view is represented in their respective WP:BLP]]s. Tarc (talk) 20:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

  "One of the misogynist warriors"? You have been already asked to remain civil in this ANI thread by Titanium Dragon and by Drmies but now you have moved into direct personal attacks. Perhaps it's you who needs a cooldown. --Pudeo' 20:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• This Drmies sees no personal attack here. Drmies (talk) 03:51, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. I personally find the off-wiki evidence intriguing but ultimately circumstantial. That being said, Tutelary's on-wiki behavior has been unacceptable, as mentioned by User:Sonicyouth86 above. With defamatory edits like this and even taking someone to ANI for removing similar edits, she clearly shouldn't be editing BLP articles. And her pushing of unreliable sources shows she probably shouldn't be editing at all. Woodroar (talk) 21:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Your first diff was posted by an IP, not by me and the ANI was to make sure that the administrator was within his right to remove the section, and I closed it myself because it ultimately was. I don't see how that is ultimately disruptive to the project and deserving an indefinite BLP topic ban. Tutelary (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Defamatory material was removed on BLP grounds and you chose to restore it, which is no different from adding it yourself. That you had to take it to ANI rather than read WP:BLP is disruption to the project. Woodroar (talk) 21:20, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

This is rather weak. Coming to ANI for clarification and accepting the decision should not be considered disruption. If it were, any administrative action review which gets upheld would be considered disruption and would lead to sanctions for the person bringing up the review. --Kyohyi (talk) 21:23, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

ANI shouldn't be a "is this really policy?" Get Out of Jail Free card, though it often works as a final reminder for editors willing to change. That ANI was in July. Restoring the defamatory material was in August. This is now a recurring issue. Woodroar (talk) 22:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Opposed. WP:HARASS 72.89.93.110 (talk) 21:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban for the reasons stated here. I think that a minimum of trust is required for interactions among editors and I don't know how the community is supposed to react when Tutelary edits particular BLPs and articles about websites like Reddit or when they write about what they – as a woman – were able to "shrug off". Feigning collective ignorance can't be the desired solution. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 21:33, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support per HJMitchell. I'd prefer an indef block/site ban but in the very least a BLP ban for Tutelary needs to brought into effect--Cailil ^talk 21:44, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose The evidence brought here seems to be about good faith disagreements mostly. No evidence is presented of actual editing of articles in an inappropriate fashion. Just say no to lynch mobs.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:04, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Question. I want to ask for the exact evidence for this proposal. There are editors whose judgment I respect who are supporting here, and I have no use for people who intentionally defame BLP subjects or edit in a misogynistic manner, so I am not (yet) arguing against the proposal. But, somewhat per the subsection just below, I'm unclear as to the reasons. First of all, I oppose enacting any sanctions on the basis of "evidence" posted elsewhere. If Wikipediocracy presents evidence of disruption on Wikipedia, please show the diffs here. Beyond that, it seems to me that editors are citing diffs presented by Sonicyouth86, including: [2], which does strike me as containing some BLP violation, but it's the only diff like that that I've seen so far, and by itself it isn't enough for sanctions. The other links provided go either to edits where I don't see a problem (but I might be missing something), or to discussions where I might disagree with Tutelary, but I do not see evidence of working against consensus, just of expressing dissenting opinions. This is a real question, and again, I haven't prejudged this, but I'd like the editors who support bans to provide the exact evidence. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It is likely there are many more, but they have been revdeled. KonveyorBelt 22:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a good point, but please at least point to edit histories where that has happened. If I were to see a whole bunch of edits by Tutelary that were revdeled, I'd AGF that the revdels were appropriate, and that would be evidence that would convince me. But the statement that it is "likely" needs to be backed up. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

The page history of Talk:Zoe Quinn, for example, from 11:05, August 23, 2014‎ to 12:18, August 23, 2014‎ was revdeled. KonveyorBelt 22:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I have just examined the entire edit histories of Zoe Quinn and Talk:Zoe Quinn, from the creation of the page up to the present. There are depressingly many revdeled edits by other editors, which makes me wonder why we aren't looking at some of them (and of course I cannot know about anything that was suppressed/oversighted). On the page, zero of the many revdeled edits were by Tutelary. On the talk page, three of the many revdeled edits were by Tutelary, and in all three cases, the revdeled sequence begins with an edit by someone else, so I cannot see whether Tutelary's edits worsened the situation or not; in one case, I see Tutelary reverting Mr. Stradivarius, so that might have been restoring objectionable material, but I do not know that for sure. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:56, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

It occurs to me that I ought to ask: Mr. Stradivarius, what do you recollect about that revdeled edit? --Tryptofish (talk) 01:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: It was a proposed section for the article entitled "Scandal", five paragraphs long, written by Titanium Dragon. It was mostly well sourced and mostly neutral, but, in my opinion, some of the key phrases about Quinn were not neutral, and some of the sources used were not reliable. I thought that the problems were enough that it should be removed from the talk page. It was not so problematic that I would consider it as a base for any sanctions proposed here, though. I did think that removing it would be seen as being heavy-handed - and I was right - but I thought that it should be removed anyway. The edit itself was revdelled, not oversighted, so I can still access it. I can email it to you so that you can look at it yourself, if you like. (I see that you haven't set email in your preferences, but if you email me, I can email you back with the section.) — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 05:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Mr. Strad, thanks so much. That explanation is very helpful to me. And is it any wonder, in this context, why I don't enable e-mail and I take so many other precautions about my privacy?! No, there's no need to e-mail it to me. I'm seeing a very consistent pattern here, of Tutelary reacting to edits on talk pages by other editors. The other editors make what I think are helpful edits, reverting content that might violate BLP or reverting images that might be offensive, or closing discussions. Tutelary repeatedly objects to those things, and reverts them. If one looks at the incidences in which Tutelary has actually done something objectionable (in my opinion, at least), it always involves reverting someone else in talk space. Always. The obnoxious or BLP-violating material always starts with another editor, and sometimes that other editor is Titanium Dragon. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: Are you satisfied with Mr. Strad's explanation of what was removed? Nothing which got revdeled from me was posted in bad faith, and all of it was sourced (though, as he noted, he didn't like some of the sources - and at the time, which was fairly early on in the whole thing, the selection of sources was fairly mediocre). It wasn't me randomly attacking Zoe Quinn; it was an attempt at improving the article, and it was all done in good faith. I've reviewed the WP:BLPNAME policy and other related policies since and I think we've all been doing a lot better on it. If you aren't aware, a lot of the problem is that the whole thing started out with Zoe Quinn's ex making a very angry blog post about her being involved with other people, but who she was involved with ended up triggering a bunch of very angry gamers to accuse her and those she was involved with of being corrupt (which actually ended up getting an official response from Kotaku, who employed one of the people involved - several sites also later went on to change their ethics policies to address some of the other issues which ended up being raised). Obviously the whole thing is rife with WP:BLP issues, seeing as it is about living people, and a lot of the really nasty stuff is fundamentally a stupid fight on the internet which ended up blowing up to the point of being noted by the wider press due to some attempts at censorship triggering the Streisand Effect, but given that the inciting incident is important to understanding the issue, it is hard to discuss the whole thing without mentioning it. It is obviously a sensitive subject and is a lot of "fun" to word right, but is also attested in dozens if not hundreds of potential sources at this point, and is noted as being the trigger for the whole thing, which probably helps us now as we can cite Forbes instead of a semi-obscure gaming website. Strad felt some of it wasn't neutrally worded and might be a BLP violation and revdeled it; we've since dealt with things a bit better, I think, and managed to see how to discuss said material on the talk page without issues with BLP. It probably also helps that it ended up in a LOT more sources after the initial discussion. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Titanium Dragon, those are certainly arguments that I am open to considering, especially because I think that accusations are being thrown around carelessly and I don't want to see anyone get railroaded here. I'm at a disadvantage, because I'm not an admin and I cannot see the revdeled edits, so I certainly think that there is room for more discussion. At the same time, I didn't base what I said on a single incident. In looking over edit histories (and initially looking in terms of Tutelary), I kept seeing you getting revdeled again and again. It's been happening a lot. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

That was about Titanium Dragon's suggestions, which were based on some reliable sources, though some were questioned. He just did not provide the sources in the initial suggestion and so the section got removed.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as I can tell there was an incident that was about someone other than Tutelary where Tutelary just happened to be caught in the middle. The only other instance seems to have been a rapid Huggle reverting of unexplained blanking by an IP on a non-BLP article where the blanking did have a legitimate BLP basis, albeit not explained. Nothing I have seen suggests the kind of editing warranting such severe sanctions. I actually see one instance of Tutelary reverting alleged BLP violations on Quinn's page. None of this suggests a strong case for sanctions.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:02, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support siteban. Tutelary joined the gender gap task force, then sought to represent a woman's perspective in discussions on various pages (invariably posting against women's interests – e.g. "Fellow female editor here ... People here are getting mad that a woman's breast is depicted and I'm not sure why." [3]), while posting misogynist material offwiki. (This can be deduced from his contributions history and early account name.) If a white editor were to join a group on WP aimed at increasing racial diversity, maintain he was black himself, act disruptively around BLPs about black people, and post racism elsewhere, he'd be site-banned. (But if a siteban doesn't go through, then I support a BLP topic ban.) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• We don't ban people for telling a few off-color jokes on Reddit.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I find the comment at Jimbo's talkpage offensive, myself. Here are all the edits made by Tutelary at the task force: [4]. I've gone through every one of them, and I don't see problems there, although there seems to be a lot of objecting to closing of discussion threads. I think we have to be careful about basing bans on posts supposedly made at other websites. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:25, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per the evidence given, to be fair here a topic ban is not forever if the editor in question can win back the trust of the community over time then I see no reason why it couldn't be lifted in the future. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• About that evidence, what I see so far is [5] and [6]. Is there anything else? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Before the ANI, there was pushing to include gossip at Talk:Suicide of Amanda Todd. And before that, it was the statement that it's only a BLP violation if it happens on the BLP page. Woodroar (talk) 00:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I've done a lot of editing at "Suicide of..." pages. I looked at the Amanda Todd talk page, and although I do see some indication of edit warring, it looks to me like what you call gossip was based on some British news sources saying that the cause of death was hanging, and there was a content dispute about whether the page should include the possible cause of death, or leave it out. And the diff about BLP violation does not actually say what you attribute to it, and seems to me to be more nuanced than that. Again, I still have an open mind, and I am interested in whether I'm simply missing something. And based on the Zoe Quinn page history, I wonder why we aren't looking at sanctions against other editors, because there sure were a lot of revdeled edits there. But each time I ask for evidence, and only get weak stuff like this, I become increasingly concerned that the evidence is pretty thin. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - Per the Private Manning precedent, if this user wants to identify as a woman named "Danielle," then this editor is a woman named Danielle, QED — at least that's the majority view of the nature of gender according to participants in that debate. Not my own perspective of gender but hey, majority: As ye sow, etc. As for the specifics of this incident, based on a diff cited above from the Zoe Quinn talk page, I favor a very narrow ban of this user from the Zoe Quinn biography. The call for a site ban by SlimVirgin above seems a gross overreaction — straight to the death penalty. Carrite (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I said this above, and had an edit conflict, but I'll repeat it here: And based on the Zoe Quinn page history, I wonder why we aren't looking at sanctions against other editors, because there sure were a lot of revdeled edits there. Really, there's another editor whose name came up earlier in this ANI thread, who has had a lot of edits revdeled at the Zoe Quinn page. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, the rev-del was done because the statements about the controversy on talk were not directly sourced, even though numerous sources existed to back the statements. So, if that is the case, then I don't think any action is really warranted.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 01:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose- basically, per Tryptofish. Those clamoring for a ban have simply not provided any evidence that this is necessary, despite several requests. I think the grounds for a ban are very flimsy, and appear to be based on a personal dislike for Tutelary and their political opinions rather than any actual misbehaviour, and I oppose at this time. Reyk _YO! 01:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support' topic ban for Tutelary, Titanium Dragon, Puedo. Most of the time on this page we have a problem with people who are alleged to be good content creators but cannot be civil or collaborative. Here we have editors who, at least in their dealings with me, have been respectful and civil but are unable to create content within the bounds of the rules of Wikipedia. Editors on this talk page have advocated edits that run counter to fundamental rules of the encyclopedia like RS and BLP. They have challenged first-rate sources like The New Yorker and Time using arguments that amount to conspiracy theories based on Tweets while advocating the use of poor sources, blogs, and forum posts. While, to their credit, they have expressed a desire to conform to our rules, an article involving a vulnerable target of harassment and the focus of intense media attention is too important and sensitive to serve as a learning space for editors struggling to grasp our basic policies. It is a mistake to frame this in a legalistic way, as a "conviction" for bad behavior where editors produce or challenge the "evidence" of their "crime" This is just a way of saying "you aren't ready for this article yet, please edit something else while you get the hang of how things work." Gamaliel (talk) 01:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

In the edit history for Zoe Quinn, Tutelary has made a lot of edits, and none of them has been revdeled (I'm not talking about the talk page here). Titanium Dragon has also made a lot of edits, and over and over, they do get revdeled. Puedo has not edited the page. I'm still trying to fully understand this, but it seems to me that Titanium Dragon has been the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think I may have confused Puedo with someone else. Striking until I have time to review the relevant articles fully. You should also look at GamerGate and related articles. Gamaliel (talk) 05:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

What Trytofish said is true, I haven't edited either the talk or article pages of Zoe Quinn/GamerGate at all. I have been commenting things related to feminism/MRM, but very rarely done actual article space edits. To be honest, you probably just support bans for editors whose point-of-view you disagree with. I think it's evident from some of the other support-votes too. --Pudeo' 12:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for mistakenly including you, but one mistaken, unsupported allegation does not justify you making another evidence-free claim. You should step away from this issue if you cannot refrain from making broad, unsupported claims about the motives of numerous other editors. WP:AGF, please. Gamaliel (talk) 14:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Gamaliel. If there is something specific you'd like me to see at GamerGate, please provide a diff. I went through the entire edit history of the page and the talk page, and looked for revdeled edits. Although Tutelary made many edits, none of them appear to have been revdeled (again, I don't know about suppression/oversight). But, again, I do see Titanium Dragon having been revdeled. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban. Claiming to be a woman while posting misogynist comments. [7] Edit warring to restore inappropriate misogynist image. [8] then joining gender gap group. —Neotarf (talk) 01:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Cleavage is not misogynistic and . . . wasn't the whole discussion about the image? Seems like it was put there by a critic literally illustrating the problem with a ridiculously tactless decision by a Signpost writer.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I do not know if this person identifies as trans-sexual so it is best to be careful here, if they don't though which the editor in question gave no indication in this case then I understand why it would cause others to be upset. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

About those two diffs, [9] does not seem to be a problem to me, but [10] does. For me, that makes a third problematic diff. And I've already pointed out that there does not really seem to be a problem at the gender gap page – although I am starting to think that there may be an issue with talk page reverts. Perhaps there should be an editing restriction against reverting in talk space, other than self-reverts. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The person who started the thread on Jimbo's talk and posted the image did it to criticize the usage of the image here. I don't think that is a serious problem.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't, TDA? At this point, I deeply regret supporting your bid for Arbcom. I won't make that mistake again. —Neotarf (talk) 05:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You are suggesting a site ban because someone restored an image of boobs in a discussion that was about said image of boobs and claiming the image of boobs was misogynistic. I find that more silly than serious.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

You should read that whole thread, TDA, there's a lot more to it. But of course we won't be able to discourage women from joining the project by just posting a link to a disputed thumbnail image. In order to convince them that Wikipedia is just a bunch of predatory neckbeards who want to interact with them with only one hand on the keyboard, you have to actually re-post the image at a larger size, on a talk page with 3,169 page watchers, and make locker room comments about it. And above all, just keep arguing and reverting, after the image has been removed multiple times by multiple editors. —Neotarf (talk) 16:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess locker room talk has gotten a lot more tactful than I remember . . .--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Didn't read the edit summaries, didja. Or the in-line comments you can only see in edit mode. Hmm, I see you have typed the word "boobs" three times...—Neotarf (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I read the summaries and saw the in-line comment too. How many locker room conversations have you heard exactly Neo? Anyway, if you want to continue this discussion of boobs, then perhaps you should go to my talk page. There you can feel free to talk with me about boobs all day.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose So we can't out anyone here but if someone else does the dirty work we'll take it at face value and ban people on the say-so of someone who has a blog about wikipedia. Why not just hand the editors over there the mop? If you want to ban someone do it on the merits, not some low rent horseshit from some random website. Protonk (talk) 02:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually the administrators over there have been handing in their mops lately, interpret that as you will. Carrite (talk) 04:54, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support BLP ban only. At an article I was helping help build, Tutelary removed well-sourced content. In my experience, that is one of the clearest indicators of activist editing (please take note of this, administrators, so you can start enforcing the WP:NPOV policy). However, when I opined on the talk page that I thought the section was fine, Tutelary ceased objecting to it. So, I think it's ok for her to continue editing the topics she takes an interest in, EXCEPT for BLPs, because with BLPs there is just no room for activist editing. People's lives are at stake. Cla68 (talk) 05:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose Tutelary does have a problem on talk pages with NPOV can affect her interpretation of sources. That said, I've not seen anything bad faith and I've not seen an active agenda pushing on mainspace. A short BLP topic ban may let her cool her boots but I think a civil explanation of what she's doing wrong, why its wrong and how to do it right would go a lot further to solving the problem. SPACKlick (talk) 08:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support With the additions they made to Zoe and Anitas pages, plus Tutelarys support of The Fappening articles, I find it hard to believe that this person respects the women whose articles they edit. I would suggest a BLP ban, or at the very least, one for the articles for women, as this editor seems to have no desire to break WP:BLP for articles with male subjects --109.148.125.223 (talk) 11:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is further evidence that Tutelary understands how WP:BLP works but only chooses to enforce it when it concerns men [11]. I am sure that a BLP ban for the articles of women only would suffice here --109.148.126.200 (talk) 15:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I was holding off posting this but I really think admins should see this link where a user called Tutelary acknowledges hacking a persons computer and stealing information [12] - you can read one of the images linked here [13]. Tutelary themselves has wrote an article on this website here [14], so I would say it's likely they are the same Tutelary. This is pretty crucial, as often editors email each other using links provided in the user space, a medium which would allow a user to spread malware through email attachments. For an editor who edits in politically charged areas, this could cause problems in the future --109.148.126.200 (talk) 22:09, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Hardly any evidence, people are often wrong in BLP, they happen to add just anything. I would just hope that this proposal would enforce Tutelary to learn some more. Bladesmulti (talk) 14:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong oppose on site ban. People calling for her to be banned for editing based on political beliefs is absurd. Anyone is allowed to freely edit as long as they don't force their views upon other editors and be disruptive. I support a short topic ban on BLP per SPACKlick's proposal above. Wikipedia isn't a political arena. Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 18:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Support per SlimVirgin. Her analogy is apt, and appropriate. Site ban massively preferred. Topic ban (from everything BLP related, not just BLP articles) at the very least. Begoon ^talk 18:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban, per precedent of the Essjay controversy. In case you don't recall, Essjay was a highly trusted user that pretended to be a professor of theology to gain advantage in editing arguments. I have been convinced by the evidence presented by Nw on Wikipediocracy that our User:Tutelary is a male pretending to be a female to gain advantage in a "war against the feminists" on Wikipedia. I can't link to the evidence myself (an earlier support was removed by Tutelary and later oversighted on request from Tutelary although it didn't link to any personal information) but it is convincing that our Tutelary is the same Tutelary who writes about being "a guy" pretending to be a "a girl" in order to insert RATs, specifically Darkcomet. Our Tutelary added information about Darkcomet to our Remote administration software article.[15] It is convincing that our Tutelary, former User:Ging287 is the same Ging287 who complains about the "gyrocentric POV" on Wikipedia. Our Tutelary then claims to be a woman to defend posting a large bosom on the main page.[16] Nothing wrong with holding political beliefs, but per the Essjay precedent, pretending to be a woman to gain advantage in editing disputes is ban worthy. --GRuban (talk) 19:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment for anyone a bit confused at what happened there, Tutelary removed a post which linked to his activities on Reddit and elsewhere. If that's not allowed, I'll just quote this one (bear in mind that he is still pretending to be female on Wikipedia) "The exploit ONLY works for Yahoo messenger, sorry I didn’t mention that. But it’s good for pretending to be a girl, all it takes is, “Hey, wanna see me naked? <3" and you've got another slave.". Cheers, Black Kite (talk) 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Black Kite:, I am a female and I consider it harassment to continue to refer to me by male pronouns. I am a girl, and I'm going to respectfully ask that you refer to me as such. And where did you get that quote? I'm a bit confused by it, namely the terms of 'slaves' and 'exploits and are you supposing I said it somewhere? Tutelary (talk) 19:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

OK - to be clear, are you clearly stating that you are not the person on those two external sites with exactly the same username as your previous one here, and who is interested in exactly the same issues, with exactly the same viewpoints, on those forums as you are on here? If so, how do you explain that astonishing coincidence? I will be quite happy to apologise and withdraw if you can do that. Black Kite (talk) 19:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't answer if you don't provide the names of the sites. But please don't link them here, but say their names. I can do my own sleuthing to find the account links. Tutelary (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Since the title of this section is "Wikipediocracy doxxing", perhaps I can suggest you read their article and the comments on it? Oh hang on, I can see from the above postings that you have actually read it. Which means you do know the names of the sites. Here's a fact for you - we're not idiots here Black Kite (talk) 19:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I have not read the comments since the first day because they were all constantly making salacious and offensive comments about me and my supposed off site connections. Plus, as I mentioned within the 'it should be noted' section my heart pressure was spiked and my heart was pacing every single time I thought about it. It's still bad right now, but manageable. I figured that if I continued looking at the article and subsequent comments I would have panic attacks. So I didn't. I did know about Reddit but not the bit about Hackforums. I have accounts on neither. Also, Is that why everybody is getting their pitchforks? Because there's somebody with the same name as me on Hackforums and Reddit and think it's me? Oh, and because I had that sandbox article? Well I think I can cut this straight right now. I began to write that article because Hackforums is one of those 'underground' hacker forums that constantly gets well-deserved flak when actually written about in RS, yet hasn't had an article as of yet. I also found it somewhat stupid that people would register on it and brag about their illegal activities, and they deserve what they get coming to them. Anywho, I never actually submitted it because I talked to the protecting administrator (who fully protected the title because members of the site were subsequently spamming the site which was obviously not notable at the time on Wikipedia) who said the article was not up to par. The only reason it was on my radar even is because Miss Teen America got hacked by a member from the forum and googling 'Hackforums wikipedia' came up nothing so I wantd to write the article. Tutelary (talk) 20:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Reddit user Ging287 discussed this revert on Reddit 5 months ago with another Redditor, who complained that that edit reverted an addition he had made. Redditor Ging287 said: "Hello. I was the one who reverted your edit. It was due to the specific wording that you attempted to use." At the time, Ging287 was Tutelary's user name here. More such parallels between Ging287's discussions of Wikipedia on Reddit and Ging287's/Tutelary's edits here can easily be found. Andreas JN466 20:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It is worth noting that this Reddit post, where Redditor Ging287 claimed ownership of Tutelary's edit here, has now been deleted on Reddit (though an archive copy is available). This seems like another remarkable coincidence, and I do not believe Tutelary's comment above, "I have accounts on neither", was truthful. There has been some discussion of this on my user talk page. Andreas JN466 19:26, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you seriously baiting editors to restore the diff link for the quote so that you can have their answer oversighted again and maybe have them blocked? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 19:34, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's a loaded question, like 'Have you stopped beating your wife?' I've done nothing of the sort, but it appears that since Black Kite is the one that proposed this whole thing, it should be a given that I should understand their position, including where I supposedly said something. Tutelary (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

One of the two accounts was on Hackforums. You know, the one you're writing a sandbox article about. User:Tutelary/sandbox/Hackforums. By complete coincidence. --GRuban (talk) 19:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary, you deleted the comment that contained the diff for the quote. Then you had the comment and the diff oversighted. And now you innocently request that someone tell you where you said that stuff about pretending to be a woman. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 20:28, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

If you're confused by the term 'slaves', User:Tutelary, you should read the excellent explanation of that term added to Wikipedia by User:Tutelary here. Andreas JN466 20:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I really just forgot about the article since talking to the protecting admin and just let it be. I don't remember things forever, especially things I wrote 3 and a half months ago. Tutelary (talk) 20:14, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I see you write above your first name is Danielle? The user Tutelary on Hackforums actually uses the same name in one thread. Not the thread he writes "I am a guy" in. Uses the last name and everything. The same last name you use in an account on a Wikipedia-related site that I guess you will admit is you. Weird coincidence, huh? --GRuban (talk) 20:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Black Kite, I had asked for clarification, so thank you for expanding on it here. At this point, I can pretty much see what is going on here. I don't know if what it says at Wikipediocracy is true or not, but I'd speculate that the odds are greater than 50% that it more or less is true. What neither Black Kite nor anyone else has been able to provide are diffs of Tutelary actually adding BLP-violating material to mainspace pages. So, for the sake of conversation, let's just suppose that Tutelary is, hypothetically, a horrible person in the real world. When people who are horrible people in the real world come to Wikipedia and act disruptively, we sanction them for the disruption. But if we were to ban every Wikipedia editor who is a messed-up person in real life, based on who they are in real life and not on something that can be documented by diffs here, well, there would be a lot fewer longtime editors here. And if we ban them for not being who they claim to be, well, I claim to be a fish, but I don't make disruptive edits. I do see some things that Tutelary has done that merit some kind of action, but I don't want to base it on WP:ASPERSIONS. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:41, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not Black Kite, but for me, I'm not asking Tutelary be banned for being a horrible person in the real world, just on Wikipedia. I'm asking Tutelary be banned for writing "as a woman I say X", multiple times, in editing discussions where being a woman clearly gave cachet, when it seems Tutelary's not a woman ... (and was expressing an opinion counter to that of most women in the discussion). That's basic disruption of Wikipedia, and it's what Essjay controversy was about. Women have it tough enough on Wikipedia, that having "a guy" pretend to be one of them to disrupt discussion is pretty bad. --GRuban (talk) 20:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

^^^This. We want to remove the gender gap? Well, remove people playing juvenile impersonation games to undermine those efforts. Simple. Begoon ^talk 20:58, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

GRuban, you raise an issue that I care about very much. But if I parse what you said, you object to Tutelary gaining cachet based on what may well be a false persona, and to a lesser extent to Tutelary "expressing an opinion counter to that of most women in the discussion". I hope that it's obvious that we shouldn't ban editors for expressing unpopular opinions, with respect to that last part. As for the main part of your concern, I'm in favor of some editing restrictions in talk space, but I think that there is little likelihood of "cachet" going forward, and "cachet" is in the eye of the beholder anyway. Editors are free, going forward, to assign Tutelary's opinions the same value they might give to a male editor's opinions, instead of a female editor's opinions – and I hope that you can see the pitfalls of even treating those opinions differently in the first place. But, again, I do note that there are talk space problems, noting also that everything cited below by Cúchullain is also in talk space. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:08, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's like saying that someone who is known to use sock puppets to comment 5 times in a discussion under different names shouldn't be banned because from this point forward editors would be free to ignore 4 of them. We should and do ban people for Wikipedia:Sock puppetry, and we did ban Essjay for pretending to be a professor of theology in arguments where that matters, and we should ban Tutelary for pretending to be a woman in arguments where that matters. Discussion is very valuable for us. I have nothing against someone expressing an unpopular opinion, (you'll notice I didn't weigh in on the bosom discussion!) but when that someone says "I'm a member of group X, so my opinion is extra valuable", and they're not, that's just as fundamental disruption as WP:SOCK: "attempts to deceive or mislead other editors, disrupt discussions, distort consensus". It's just the same if they wrote their opinion 5 times under different names, or if they claimed to be a professor of theology in a topic where that would matter. It's a ban-worthy offense. --GRuban (talk) 21:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that your analogy is flawed. A sock-er gains multiple !votes, and that's very disruptive. Someone who says "I'm a member of group X, so my opinion is extra valuable", is only disruptive to the extent that other editors accept as true that claim of extra value. I edit, for example, many neuroscience pages and it just so happens (so I claim!) that I've been a neuroscience professor in real life. But, even though I just said that here, I never say that in talk page discussions on those pages (except one time when I declined a request to comment because of a COI). That's because I don't care if some editor is a Nobel Laureate – if they make a bad edit, I'll revert it. And if a schoolchild makes a good edit, I'll support it. This isn't the same thing as Essjay, because Essjay parlayed the misrepresentation into advanced permissions. And, in fact, you haven't really proved that Tutelary isn't a trans woman. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

!votes? There was no !voting in the bosom photos discussion, there was merely a decision - should we have a photo of a bosom on the main page? And since arguably the main issue there was "is it offensive to women?" - the voice of someone who said they were a woman was easily worth 5 who said they weren't. Same for joining the Gender Gap project - the voice of an editor claiming to be a woman is easily more valuable in getting more women to join than any number of people who don't claim to be women. Sure, we haven't "proved" Tutelary isn't a trans woman; but we can hardly do a DNA analysis. We have proven she's a troll, who happily claims to be "a girl" to install RATs, then says she's "a guy". I think that's plenty indicative she's a similar troll who claims to be "a girl" (this time quoting her above!) to disrupt Wikipedia. See SlimVirgin's analogy of someone claiming to be black when joining a racial diversity project. --GRuban (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the analogy is WP:ASPERSIONS. If it makes you feel any better about my position, I do support restrictions on Tutelary in talk space. Sincerely, I really do care about making Wikipedia a more welcoming place, but I think that you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban (or a fallback to feminism and BLP ban) per Essjay controversy. Pretending to be someone who you are not for the benefit of winning debates and pushing an anti-feminist POV does not engender trust. Although oversighted, the evidence is fairly clear. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:47, 12 September 2014 (UTC) Per a request by Tutelary, I will edit my comment to say that I find this user highly untrustworthy due to off-site behavior. This behavior has manifested itself on Wikipedia as POV-pushing and disruption, some of which is plainly in this thread itself. Continued, stubborn insistence of innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary is perplexing. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Given the seriousness of BLP articles here on Wikipedia is there a way of matching up the IP address used on the other sites with the one used here? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:26, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban or site ban for Tutelary. Here are all of the diffs that have been presented in this wall-of-text in which Tutelary has added BLP-violating material to Wikipedia articles: there aren't any. But I would support a BLP topic ban for Titanium Dragon, who has made enough such edits to justify the sanction. And, I would support an editing restriction on Tutelary, forbidding reverts (except self-reverts) in talk page space, because everything where Tutelary has edited badly really consists of that. And I think we should also caution some of the supporters in this discussion about WP:ASPERSIONS. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support ban. Edits like this BLP violation are just symptoms of a much wider pattern of inserting, or advocating for inserting, poorly supported disparaging material into the biographies of living women. Though individual edits and comments generally avoid violating the letter of BLP, discussions like these[17][18][19] show a clear tendency toward inserting negative material about living people based on questionable or unusable sources. Even if we assume good faith about Tutelary's intentions (which is a big assumption at this point), they clearly lack the competence expected of editors dealing with highly sensitive BLP topics, and they take up a considerable amount of other editors' time and energy. It simply shouldn't be so difficult for Wikipedia to channel problematic editors away from topics where they can cause serious damage, whether it's towards topics where they can be productive (through a topic ban), or toward another hobby altogether. On another note, it's also time to look into sanctions for Titanium Dragon and editors who have been disrupting these articles recently.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying that I shouldn't have the obligation nor the will to report another administrator's decisions up for review? Are you saying that in the terms of that I think wider input should be sought, I should not do a RfC? And to the fact that I 'lack competence', I do not, and that is plainly a personal attack. CIR is cited often when a user does not learn after an incessant amount of guidance, help, among other things, that is not the case here. The two that you cite are months and months old and appear to be only be useful in this discussion because there is shant a shred of recent evidence that I've been disruptive other than that misinterpreted diff. It's plainly obvious of that when you have to cite a RfC that was done when the dispute was still fresh, and a review of an administrator's authority and BLP policy. The diff of me restoring the talk page comment was actually a misinterpreted; I had the impression that NeinL had a problem with specific portions of the comment and that it was salvageable overall. I reverted only once. Indeed, in the next diff, you can see that I removed what I thought NeiNL thought was objectionable and then NeinL reverted again with further clarification and I did not revert again because it was evident that it was not salvageable. Tutelary (talk) 21:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Making a few problem edits and comments and then improving is one thing. Making the same problem edits again and again, over the course of months, and across multiple articles and forums, as you've been doing, is a serious problem. This is incompetence at best, if not outright intentional tendentious editing. In neither case should you come anywhere near a biography of a living person again.--Cúchullain ^t/c 01:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@Cuchullain: - Please note that we actually can go back two revs and see what the content in question was (why it wasn't revdeled, I can't say, but only that particular edit was); the content did not originate with Tutelary, and the content in question was an post about being censored and about how the main gaming journalism websites were biased in their own favor from a third party. The post was probably not the best thing in the universe, but the problem was that some folks had been reverting every attempt to discuss some of the issues involved, which have been, at this point, reliably sourced. Banning them over revving back to something someone else posted, especially given that their reason was "delete the BLP violating information and leave the rest", isn't something I would consider a bannable offense at all. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Restoring some's flagrant BLP violation by edit warring is equally as bad as making the violation yourself. Especially when it's part of a larger pattern of BLP issues such as I linked to. What you "consider" carries no weight given your own various BLP violations. Neither of you should be editing BLPs.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose site or topic ban for Tutelary; though i have the highest respect for Black Kite and others who have commented or opined here, it simply isn't reasonable, in my view, to say, "Oh, there's evidence, but i'm not showing it to you, just take my word for it". Perhaps there is, perhaps there isn't, but if i cannot see it (and, no thank you, i don't care to go searching off-site for it), it isn't convincing to me. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 22:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  Er - it's been posted, deleted, and oversighted. What do you suggest, Lindsay? How shall we show it to you? --GRuban (talk) 22:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  • (edit conflict) Lindsay, we can't show you the evidence because every time someone presents any it gets oversighted away (Tutelary's adherence to policy improves remarkably when it suits Tutelary). The evidence that Tutelary has behaved inappropriately on BLPs is all above and in Tutelary's contributions. The evidence that Tutelary is an agenda-driven POV warier rather than a misguided newbie relies on analysis of their comments elsewhere on the web, and the evidence that they are not who they say they are was posted by third parties to Wikipediocracy. It's not difficult to find, but people who don't care to explain themselves to us mere mortals won't allow it to be posted on the wiki. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

HJ Mitchell, are you really doubting the oversight team here? Oversight is important to the wiki as personal information should just be left to be discovered via page history or even be left on the page itself. Oh, and I've heard of administrators who today only use their administrative actions to read revdeletions, make a post a month to keep their mop, and Oversight even protects against those snooping eyes as well. If you have a complaint, you can address it to Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Audit_Subcommittee. But do read WP:OVERSIGHT, in which one of its purposes is to protect privacy. Tutelary (talk) 23:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very familiar with both those processes. You forget, I was elected as an administrator to protect this project form people like you long before you created your account. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:18, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• • • I've done a bunch of revision deleting on those pages, and I don't have oversight powers, so those revisions are still accessible by mere mortal administrators like ourselves. Gamaliel (talk) 02:16, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. So, the police have found that a person's behavior may be problematic, but the police is not the prosecutor and the prosecutor is not the judge. Based on the evidence so far, first make a strong case that Wikipedia has been edited in an inpropriate way, if this is found to be the case let's discuss with the editor to make sure this won't continue. If this fails, one can start to think about sanctions to protect Wikipedia from problematic editing by the editor. Count Iblis (talk) 22:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose a community site ban based only on evidence provided on Wikipediocracy. Wikipediocracy should not be considered a reliable source. If there is non-public information available that User:Tutelary has in fact engaged in gender misrepresentation, then ArbCom is the appropriate authority to impose the ban. To repeat, I oppose any action based solely on information posted by an unreliable web site whose purpose is to attack the Wikipedia community. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Robert McClenon, the information is quite public. It consists in public posts, made by what is evidently the same individual, on hackforums.net and Reddit. There is no need to involve Wikipediocracy at all. Andreas JN466 23:09, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - I agree that gender misrepresentation does deserve a ban. I just don't see that the evidence of gender misrepresentation is satisfactory. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - It appears that the main BLP issue has to do with Zoe Quinn. So many of the edits to Zoe Quinn have been either redacted or suppressed (a non-admin cannot tell the difference) that it is difficult to determine who the offenders were. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Robert, as one non-admin to another, you can see somewhere above where I went through all the edits at Zoe Quinn, and (at the page, not the talk page), none of the revdeled edits were by Tutelary, but quite a few were by Titanium Dragon. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support siteban per SlimVirgin. Lightbreather (talk) 22:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose for a number of reasons, but mostly per Tryptofish's analysis of the situation. First, temporarily ignore all of the accusations of Tutelary being a man and pretending to be a woman, and look at their contributions to Wikipedia. If another editor had the same set of contributions to Wikipedia, without any of the gender impersonation issues, would you be supporting a BLP ban or a site ban for them, based on those contributions alone? Probably not. I haven't seen diffs of anything so extreme that a ban is required. Second, the gender impersonation issues aren't provable, nor are they a valid reason to ban anyone, even if they were proven to be true. There is no Wikipedia policy that forbids an editor from misrepresenting their gender, therefore there is no policy-based rationale to block someone for it. It's certainly not something that I would do myself, nor would I encourage others to do it, but that doesn't mean that I need to force my beliefs/principles/values on other people. If you get off on telling people that you're an 89-year-old blind albino Icelandic princess when in reality you're a 23-year-old dude living in your parents' basement, then go for it. This is the internet; there is never a reason to trust someone's claims about themselves. Finally, I oppose a ban based on off-wiki evidence that can't be posted on-wiki because the evidence itself violates Wikipedia policies. Such a ban would be a reward to those individuals who spend their time scouring the internet to expose the personal information and identity of Wikipedia editors with whom they disagree, and it would only encourage them to continue doxing other editors (maybe it'll be you next time). Doxing someone can be potentially traumatic and can potentially affect the target’s life, their family, and damage their livelihood. It should not be tolerated on- or off-wiki, and it cannot be rewarded. Exposing someone’s private information is an extremely disproportionate reaction to the transgressions that Tutelary is accused of. I believe that Tutelary has gone through enough, and I believe that this event is likely more than enough to cause Tutelary to behave in an appropriate manner, should they choose to continue editing here. ‑Scottywong| yak _ 23:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

  "There is no Wikipedia policy that forbids an editor from misrepresenting their gender [...] If you get off on telling people that you're an 89-year-old blind albino Icelandic princess when in reality you're a 23-year-old dude living in your parents' basement, then go for it. This is the internet; there is never a reason to trust someone's claims about themselves." Wikipedia "is an entertainment, an annoyance, a distraction, a put-on, a reading experience, a performance, a series of ironies, an inversion that you do or do not get. At times you might read excerpts from these texts in the news and you might take them—at your own peril—at surface value. Which any college English freshman would warn you not to do. And which any graduate student in literature would laugh at you for doing. Ever onward, mate. Andreas JN466 00:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

  I had never seen that before, but it is quite apt and I enjoyed it immensely. "Wikipedia is not reality and nothing happening on Wikipedia—or 'behind the scenes at Wikipedia'—is real. So get the fuck over it." Thanks ‑Scottywong| verbalize _ 14:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm glad it amuses you, Scotty--but what Qworty is saying, of course, is that we should wipe our asses with the BLP policy. "Not real": we're talking about someone who for years abused Wikipedia to settle old scores. Ask those people how not real it was. I would hope that an administrator here would take these matters a bit more seriously, since BLP violations, unlike what that "writer" had to tell us on his soapboxy userpage, are not victimless crimes. Andreas, your point is well taken. Drmies (talk) 15:15, 13 September 2014‎ (UTC)

• Support siteban pr Jayen466 and SlimVirgin, Huldra (talk) 23:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - have not seen demonstration of any strong problems with editing by Tutelary. Claiming real life credentials for something that the users are not including gender, occupation, degrees, race, ethnicity, age, residence, etc. is wrong but it is hardly a bannable offence (maybe deserves a warning). Wiki rules are specifically designed to avoid reliance on editor's claims and the case may be a good reminder for this. Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• I don't know if I'm ready to vote for a ban on anything--but I find Tutelary's editing incredibly problematic. Right now I really doubt their competence, and this after teasing out a couple of diffs on Cunt and some chatter on the talkpage, including quite insulting remarks and an attempt to evade--Gobonobo knows what I'm talking about. Drmies (talk) 04:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't see a competence issue there. That thread is a perfect example of what Tutelary and Tutelary's mates have been doing with considerable success at the gender gap task force: transparently specious "argument" and unfounded opposition to frustrate and demoralise genuine editors. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 03:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose especially per Count Iblis's comment below, and those by Alex Bakharev, Tryptofish, Robert McClenon, and Scotty Wong above. Some folks here clearly wish to silence (via bans/blocks) or WP:Censor editors with whom they strongly disagree (the underlying motivation here). Some are willing to blatantly ignore WP policies to achieve that end. That intolerance of intellectual diversity, and efforts to curb free and open discussion, reveals WP:NOTHERE. This is not what WP is about. WP has never been about who someone is, it is about what they have contributed to the project. Memills (talk) 03:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You mean your kind of "intellectual diversity" and the editing that got you topic banned indefinitely from all men's rights related pages and discussions? Haven't you been arguing that those your consider "gender feminists" and supposedly "feminist" sources should be excluded as RS? Tutelary defended your contributions in that topic area like your problematic BLP edits in Michael Kimmel's BLP where you kept adding negative commentary to the page based on an opinion piece in an unreliable men's rights journal. Don't get me started on the role Tutelary played in enabling disruptive, POV driven editors in the men's rights topic area. By the way, please let me know when that ArbCom case you and Tutelary discussed is on the way. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 11:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

As usual, it is stunning to watch you misrepresent facts, eschew accuracy, and lob ad hominems in an agenda to silence editors that challenge your POV. Exemplifies the very point. And, it is not lost on the editors here who ask: "Where are the diffs? They're aren't any." Memills (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I fail to see any evidence of disruption here on WP, where are the DIFFS supporting a similar request? Unconvinced there is a problem, sorry. And banning on the basis of a wikipediocracy article investigating the off-wiki identity of an editor would be a terrible precedent. Cavarrone 13:58, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• Are you crazy? No. Strongest possible oppose. I don't see a single diff of any disruption. We're going to start banning people for someone at wikipediocracy posting something about her? Cheers, Thanks, L235-Talk Ping when replying 14:50, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The difs in question are oversighted on Quinns page --109.148.126.200 (talk) 15:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Incredibly strong oppose to this discussion as if let's say that she DID pretend to be female, that shouldn't be even able to be used to gain any sort of advantage in a content dispute or any dispute. If I said "As a woman I think my opinions are more important", I don't get how that even boosts my hypothetical actual position on anything. You can't BAN people based on Wikipediocracy postings! IT'S A BLOG! If a blog isn't a reliable source for articles, how is it a reliable source for a site ban? You can't ban people based on off-wiki issues! The points in question is "fraudulently claiming to be a woman" (claimed by an UNRELIABLE source), "off-wiki activities", and "BLP disputes". Correct me if I'm wrong, but "fraudulently claiming to be a woman" can't be in any way, shape, or form, a BANNABLE offence at this time! Who determines that he's a woman? A blog on the internet? Or Tutelary herself? Plus, the arguments advanced in favour of using this as a bannable offence state that she used her position as a woman to get advantages in discussions. How is that possible? The fact that you are a woman shouldn't have any bearing on any discussion, so the point is moot, unless somebody else took that into account in closing discussions, in which it is that person's fault. Off-wiki activities can't have a bearing on your contributions, as you should only be judged in a discussion by whether your position is backed up with reliable sources. She could be a militant feminist advancing the killing of all men off-wiki and I'd be fine with her complying with all policies and being consensus forming in discussions. The so-called "BLP disputes" are disputed themselves, by other editors on this page. The only way there could possible be grounds for a ban is in the area of BLP disputes. That should be the discussion we're having, and according to the strongest arguments, Tutelary is in the right. Other people just call her a misogynist and expect that to win on the sheer number of !support votes. Too bad that Wikipedia isn't a vote. Grognard 123chess456 (talk) 17:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess if Tutelary got banned for his involvement with misogynistic Reddit discussions, you might be the next one looking at a ban. Oh, no, I guess not because you deleted your account last week, didn't you? Did you think no one would notice? Kaletony (talk) 00:04, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose both site and BLP ban at this time, mostly per Tryptofish. We should not be using what may or may not have happened on other sites as fodder for bans here. I.e., If an editor is a good candidate for a ban, then the appropriate evidence must come from Wikipedia diffs. I also suggest that this thread be closed before it wastes anymore of the community's resources. (This has been going back and forth for more than five days now, and no clear consensus will emerge from this thread) Rationalobserver (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• My problem is with what Tutelary has been doing on this site. But I agree, there isn't a concise, coherent and persuasive argument supporting that position in this page - It's there if you follow the right links, I suppose. But I've got promises to keep and don't have time for whak-a-mole right now. So, unless something comes out of left field in the next day or so, I'll support closing this as unresolved. (And maybe setting up a broad RfC on anti-women behaviour here. But later.)

Welcome to Wikipedia, by the way. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Take it to Arbcom As it appears there is "private information" (in the Wikipedia sense) and there appears to be more than one off-site kefluffle going [20] that maybe further being pursued on wikipedia, Arbcom is the place to sort this out. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Protonk. On the Internet, nobody knows that you're a dog, or a male. Any statement concerning themselves by anonymous editors should be taken with a grain of salt. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:37, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

* Support site ban - Tutelary's obvious dissembling should make it clear to anyone with a clue that he has been playing you all along. If I were him, I would be more concerned by the very real prospect of the police knocking on his door than with continuing this charade on Wikipedia. Kaletony (talk) 00:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC) Please see #UPDATE: user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• lol: there's an old interwebs adage: "don't feed the trolls". If you don't know who's feeding the trolls in this situation, it's probably you ;-). --SB_Johnny | ^talk✌ 01:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban , else BLP topic ban. (revised - nah, site ban it should be) More than justified. Volunteer Marek  07:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. As @Mr. Stradivarius: and @Tryptofish: noted above, none of the article space revdels were by Tutelary. Of my own, as Strad noted, they weren't made in bad faith, were indeed sourced (though some folks weren't happy with some of the sources - we had a discussion about them on the talk page, as was recommended by one of the ANIs about the article), and were written "mostly" neutrally (I did my best, but no one is perfect :P I thought it was alright. I have a copy of it still, if anyone is interested, though I'm not sure how to link to stuff like that easily). It wasn't, as noted, a hit piece on Zoe Quinn, but an overview of what was going on; the central issue is more or less that Zoe's ex outed her as being involved with several people involved in the gaming industry, and all of them got accused of being corrupt and promoting each other and attacking each others' enemies by very angry gamers. At this point, we have far better sources thanks to much better coverage.

I can't speak for all the revdels on the talk page, but a previous ANI noted that they probably were a little bit overboard and probably didn't all need to happen. It is water under the bridge at this point, though, and the concerns were over BLP issues which I think have since been satisfied via discussion on the talk page once some folks (NOT the admins) stopped deleting all attempts at discussion. And I'm sure at least some of the revdels were people being angry on the talk page; given Tutelary's general behavior, though, if they restored any of those (and given the ones that I have seen restored, weren't exceptionally bad, and frankly I see worse every day elsewhere on the encyclopedia) I'm not really worried about it. There were concerns about censorship of the talk page by several folks, and eventually that quieted down after the ANI agreed that discussing these things wasn't a BLP vio because of all the sourcing.

As for the rest of it - Tutelary hasn't seemed overly hostile, and has been quite civil compared to many of the other people who have been involved in editing that article. I don't care what gender they are and have actually been sent stuff which pretty much confirms their identification via Twitter (and then had to explain to said person why, exactly, posting that information was a bad idea, because some folks don't understand the concept of "the problem was the violation of privacy, and that is going to further violate their privacy"). I think they've been trying to improve Wikipedia. I haven't seen evidence of any poor behavior ON Wikipedia. If someone has evidence of actual poor behavior, I'm more than happy to look at it, but I'm not seeing anything all that exciting. Certainly nothing warranting a ban. Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban. Tutelary has demonstrated that he/she is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to enact an anti-feminist agenda that includes trolling the editors at the gender gap task force and making tendentious edits to BLPs and women-related topics. Tutelary's actions fit the mold of a broader campaign of disruptive editing waged by MRAs that reddit, A Voice for Men, 4chan, and the like send our way. Women editors and efforts to address the gender gap are just targets for 'lulz'. This noticeboard's ongoing inability to do anything about it or take action against the editors who engage in this behavior is discouraging. gobonobo ^{+ c} 14:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban - +1,000 btc to Gobonobo for being blunt. The fact that too many admins and editors here are naive enough to fall for the 'lulz' and disruption is beyond discouraging. Tutelary should have been indeffed as soon as the information became known. Any editor that has any clue at all can see what's going on here. It's a pity that we continue to allow this silliness to escalate, like fools. Just the disruption and BLP violations can be pointed to for the admins and editors who don't know what 4chan is. Sigh...... Dave Dial (talk) 15:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Question to editors who support a site ban or topic ban: I think that you can see that opinions in this discussion are divided, and it is becoming unlikely that such bans will get consensus (unless new evidence comes out of the sockpuppet investigation). I earlier proposed an editing restriction in which Tutelary would be restricted against making reverts (other than self-reverts) in talk space. If you look closely, all of Tutelary's edits that have come under the greatest concern are reverts of that sort. If the bans cannot be agreed to, would you find the editing restriction helpful, or would you consider it inadequate? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I think admins would regret not making the decision for at least a topic ban, it's not like Quinn's harassers have been receiving good press and Wikipedia already has a pretty bad reputation for being misogynistic. It was Tutelary who added the information about the incident to the article against consensus to wait, with plenty of "allegedly"'s for the harassment she received but none for her supposed "sex for coverage". I don't think some people here realise how serious it is to add information about this to a WP:BLP --5.81.51.98 (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Admins block, but the community bans. Plenty of us understand how serious BLP is, but we don't ban people because of outside press concerns. I've been asking and asking for diffs of Tutelary adding BLP-violating material to the page (not the talk page), and I'm still waiting. But there clearly are problematic reverts on talk pages. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:38, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

BLP covers certain talk page edits. It's not "anything goes" just because it's not in article space.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:15, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I never said "anything goes" – and that's why I'm proposing an editing restriction. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:22, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose. It has been ridiculous to see the Wikipedia gang up on a doxxing victim like this. If you're worried about a misogynistic reputation, then I suggest not going on witchhunts against underage female editors. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 20:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• • Pshhh. What does it matter? If this goes by without admin action, it just shows how clueless admins are. So why would anyone who does have a clue care about more bureaucratic bullshit? Dave Dial (talk) 20:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: no diffs have been provided that clearly show our blocking policy's definition of disruption. As far as misrepresenting one's identity goes, if that were blockable then a huge portion of our users should be banned. By stating that misrepresenting one's identity is a bannable offense, you will be rewarding people for doxxing wiki editors they don't like in order to get them banned. I am sure there are large numbers of editors who misaffiliate their sex, race, qualifications, probably even people in this thread, and I don't want to see witchhunts becoming standard procedures. As always wikipedia should focus on the edit's, and the arguments of editors, and not on their stated qualifications. This isn't Citizendium.AioftheStorm (talk) 20:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment So, all of the egregious diffs that were provided have been revdel-ed, and now some people are basing oppose !votes on the idea that no refs were provided? People seem to be opposing based on basic ignorance of the situation in more recent comments. __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:15, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

We can still see that diffs have been revedeled (not the same as suppressed/oversighted), and none of them in mainspace have been by Tutelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Is there a "non-mainspace" exemption for problematic BLP edits? If they're using the site to spread damaging claims about BLP subjects, it doesn't matter where they do it, talk page, noticeboard, wikiproject, whatever.__ E L A Q U E A T E 21:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

In such cases people can sometimes cross the line due to heated discussions, the proper way to put a stop to that is by first issueing a warning that BLP must be respected also outside the editing of articles. In principle, we are here to help editors stick to the rules we have here and if that doesn't work within the margins of errors we can tolerate, we need to impose restrictions. If people say that they can already tell that this editor is up to no good, then we don't need to preemptively act on that assessment, the outcome of the normal process to deal with editors who misbehave and continue to do so despite warmings will yield the same outcome anyway. So, no need to build a Guantanamo Bay detention facility, the regular justice system is good enough. Count Iblis (talk) 22:01, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This looks like it's post-warnings, post-admin-block. __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:35, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

"all of the egregious diffs that were provided have been revdel-ed,"

I have no idea if a diff is egregious without seeing it. I don't trust the judgement of a site where saying things like "So-and-so has been subjected to misogynist harassment" qualifies as "an egregious BLP violation"...AioftheStorm (talk) 02:18, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Weak Support site-ban. Tutelary and I have been debating about Skyler Page, where ironically he has been removing information about Page's sexual assault accusations. It seems a little strange that he took the the total opposite side on this debate then he did with Zoe Quinn. What bothers me is not that he disagreed with me, but the way he went about it. I reverted the page twice in 24 hours and said that it was the last time I will revert it. He reverts it 3 times and then has the nerve to warn me for edit warring. I am not saying that I wasn't edit warring, but he was just as guilty of edit warring as me, if not more guilty. I only reverted it twice and said I was stopping there while he reverted it three times. Also he bought up discussions he claimed showed that there was consensus to not include the accusations on Skyler Page; however both discussions were about not including it on Clarence (2014 TV series) and one of them only involved him and one other user. Overall, this seems to be a case of WP:NOTHERE. JDDJS (talk) 23:03, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

JDDJS, while I don't think the material in question should be added to Skylar Page, it is indeed distressing to see Tutelary fighting so hard to keep it out, considering his devotion to adding much more poorly supported negative material into articles of women.[21][22][23]--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. As someone who was active at the Zoe Quinn article during the time that most of the revision-deletion happened, I didn't find Tutelary to be disruptive. I may not have agreed with their opinion, but for the most part they were good about not violating the BLP policy. The only two lapses[24][25] (admin-only links) were restorations of comments by others on the talk page. I would say that these restorations were problematic, but not problematic enough that they couldn't be addressed by discussion.

  As for other evidence, the revert at Jimbo's talk page was maybe not in very good taste, but it wasn't a BLP violation, and I don't think it violated the talk page guidelines either. Above, Cuchullain claims that Tutelary shows a pattern of inserting, or advocating for inserting, poorly supported disparaging material into the biographies of living women. I think that the links that Cuchullain uses to back that statement up ([26][27][28]) show that Tutelary has, in the past, advocated for inserting such material. However, I don't see any actual insertion of problematic material in article space, and in my recent interactions with Tutelary on the Zoe Quinn page they have been a better judge of what constitutes a source acceptable for a BLP than is evident in those earlier discussions.

  Based on the evidence I have linked to in this post, I think that site-banning or topic-banning Tutelary would be an overreaction. I have more sympathy for Tryptofish's proposed talk-page restriction, but I personally doubt that it is necessary. Just the fact that this discussion has occurred will likely make Tutelary be more careful about talk page reverts in the future.

  Now, of course, there is off-wiki evidence involved in this incident as well, but we aren't well-equipped to deal with that kind of evidence here on ANI. The outing policy prevents us from linking much of the evidence directly or from discussing it in detail, so it can never be all that clear what the evidence is that we are talking about. And when we can't be sure that we are all on the same page about what is supposed to have happened, it's hard to say that we can find a meaningful consensus about it. If off-wiki evidence is going to be taken into account, it would be much better to bring this to ArbCom, as they have procedures for dealing with material that could violate people's privacy. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 03:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that that's an excellent analysis of the situation. I'm inclined to be persuaded that my suggestion of an editing restriction is not necessary, especially since the editors who are (metaphorically, not literally) calling for Tutelary's head on a plate are making it clear that they will settle for either the head, or nothing less. At this time, a checkuser has indicated that the SPI investigation is going to take a while, and I'm still keeping an open mind in case the results might force a reevaluation. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Concern. Tutelary's behavior as I've seen it and others have described it has been questionable and I figured it was a matter of time before that alone resulted in a ban, so I did not think it necessary to comment. However, in the last day or so I've had a growing concern about the larger issue of their allegedly being a minor who works on sexual topic articles and discusses sex online with adults. According to a 2011 Village Pump discussion - Wikiproject Pornography and Minors: Proposals and Discussion - that sort of thing is against Florida law, and maybe more states (and countries) by now.

It's one thing to not know someone is a minor. It's another to have a strong allegation that someone is a minor being widely discussed. Individuals, no matter how unknowing, who later engage in discussions about sex with that minor might be put in jeopardy. Allowing that alleged minor to post really starts setting Wikipedia up for federal/police surveillance and a federal/police sting. (Consider all those ambitious prosecutors out for big head line busts.) And then one has to deal with the snitches from on or off Wikipedia who might be looking for evidence of such 'crime'. Just something to think about. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 11:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• • You are using a failed proposal to disallow minors of editing pages related to the Pornography project, as a concern about someone discussing about sex. Please don't mix the two concepts. It is not illegal to have a discussion with minors about sex. Please also be careful in your wording, things like "engage in discussions about sex with that minor" have a completely different possible meaning than what I hope you are trying to say. But in any case, you may be concerned as much as you like, but please don't use unrelated (and failed) proposals to support your concern. Fram (talk) 11:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Tell that to a backwoods Florida grand jury... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Next time you believe something violates Florida law, don't pretend that your believe is something supported by a Village Pump discussion. Combining scare-mongering and false arguments to authority are not a good recipe to come across as a genuinely concerned editor. Fram (talk) 12:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Geez, that's a bit harsh, don't you think? Frankly, I have no idea when discussions of sex with a minor become obscenity or child abuse or child pornography in the law of what state or the federal government. And I bet a lot of others don't either. Obscenity#Child_pornography has a definition sufficiently broad to make one wonder. Child_pornography#Sexting might be broad enough to include words and not just images. Maybe this is an area that needs more coverage on Wikipedia and in some relevant Wikipedia guidelines. I bet a few people here have to think back to interchanges they had with Tutelary that might be questionable in some government officials eyes. Maybe I even do. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I did find Online predator had a bit more. "Chat rooms, instant messaging, Internet forums, social networking sites, cell phones, and even video game consoles have all attracted online predators." So I guess the issue would be proving one was not an online predator looking to have sexual discussions with a person known to be a minor who discusses sexual content on Wikipedia. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Your replies indicate that on the contrary, I wasn't harsh enough by far. Your links to "child pornography" and "sexting" indicate that you really have no idea what you are talking about here (or that you do know and are trolling). It would be in your own best interest if you withdrew and dropped this whole line of reasoning completely. Fram (talk) 13:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I freely admit ignorance of the issue. Feel free to tell me and anyone else who might be confused the best place on Wikipedia to get guidance. WP:Editor assistance? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Everywhere but a topic ban discussion on an individual editor for unrelated reasons. You can try WP:VPP. Considering that the proposal you linked to, which was much more focused than sexuality in general, was soundly rejected by the community, I don't think you will get much support, certainly not when you continue to mix "discussing an article about sexuality" where minors may be joining the discussion, with "child pornography", "sexting", and "online predators". If you have any evidence (or strong indications) of actual online predating happening, you can best take the advice you may find in Wikipedia:Child protection. Fram (talk) 13:35, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Tryptofish. Whatever Tutelary is in real life, or whatever political or social opinion he/she holds is irrelevant. I have not seen any evidence presented of bad edits which warrant such a sanction. I have read the Essjay controversy page and that does not seem to apply here, by a long shot. Nobody has accused the editor of lying their way to a paid position. And of course, the use of off-site material to convict people here is troublesome. In any case, I am sure a bunch of people will be watching Tutelary's edits like a hawk from now on. Kingsindian (talk) 15:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many people here really cared about the paid position bit, particularly since it wasn't even WMF or in any way wikipedia related.

The concern here on wikipedia, was IMO (and also how I read the article) primarily that editor concerned used their fictitious claims to support their editing here. While many also felt the claims shouldn't have had an influence, this doesn't negate the fact they may have, and that the person concerned appeared be using them with that intention. That obviously has a serious effect on wikipedia.

There were also some concerns about lying to a reporter. That also affects wikipedia somewhat since it reflects badly on wikipedia and wikipedians, and means people may be reluctant to trust wikipedians; and of course we too may have wrong info if we are relying on reliable sources based on such lies.

The second one obviously doesn't apply here, but the first one does. (To be clear, as I emphasised below I'm not saying the claims are fictitious since these relate to identity issues so are much less clear cut. However I find identifying in a certain way you wouldn't otherwise solely for the purpose of advancing one's position equally troubling.)

Nil Einne (talk) 16:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I am agnostic on the underlying issue, but I wanted to point out that if this person is banned, we're setting a precedent applicable to other situations. In the discussions on COI guidelines and the new Terms of Use on paid editing it is often pointed out that editors cannot engage in precisely this kind of sleuthing to ferret out COI. If this Tutelary is banned, we would be saying that it is OK to ban a person based on sleuthing, which implies that it is OK to identify paid editors and COI editors through similar methodology. Are you sure you want to do that? Coretheapple (talk) 17:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment My feelings are nearly the same as GRuban. In particular, I would emphasise that I don't care how Tutelary identifies, nor do I say there's anything wrong with them identifying in one place in one manner and identifying in another place in another manner. The problem begins when it appears their identification is intended solely to game the system rather than for other reasons (e.g. genuinely feel that way, to protect their privacy) and that when this combined with all the other evidence both here and elsewhere suggests they're not here to build an encyclopaedia.

  Oh and while I don't think we should generally penalise people for stuff they do elsewhere, in this particular case there IMO needs to be consideration of the allegations suggesting misusing others computers. While it may be difficult to know if these are simply idle boasts, if they are true this has implications for us due to the risk the same may be tried here.

  However while I personally support a site-ban or any other sanctions proposed, I'm not willing to do so here because I'm uncomfortable sanctioning an editor based on material (no matter how strong) that we cannot discuss, and they would have to allow open discussion to repond to. For this reason, I feel the case needs to go to arbcom. As much as I dislike wikipediocracy and such doxing, it's difficult to ignore the implications I raised earlier in a case as significant as this.

  Nil Einne (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

  Edit: I've struck out portions of my comment which I'm no longer confident of. I sincerely apologise for any offence cause. I didn't look that well in to the case, since as I mentioned, I do not believe we can come to a conclusion here on wikipedia given that a fair amount of the evidence was outside of wikipedia and not anything Tutelary wishes discussed here. I now appreciate the evidence isn't very clear cut (in particular, I've seen suggestion of identification in cases where it didn't seem to matter before it seemed to be an issue anywhere and other stuff which have given me pause for thought whereas I was previously under the impression the idenfication elsewhere was always clearcut different from here).

  However given the sensitivity of the issue, I should have taken greater care and can only apologise again. I still think that it will be helpful for arbcom to look in to this, particularly given the hacking allegations. (And either way, this is a good example of why. I obviously should have just said to send it to arbcom. Unfortunately, I let my desire to send a clear message about unacceptable behaviour overide that without even properly looking in to the case.) I'm fine with my struck out comments being removed point blank, but suspect it will be more confusing and I don't think I said anything which wasn't unfortunately already mentioned.

  Nil Einne (talk) 23:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Where I differ from you is that I don't believe that an inquiry of this kind conducted behind closed doors as necessarily superior to one that is conducted in the open. If we don't allow doxing, how is it permissible to utilize the fruits of doxing that has taken place outside of Wikipedia? I've seen situations in which people have attempted such sleuthing for COI-identification purposes and been threatened with blocking. Yet here we have the target being considered for banning. Could the COI discussion have been moved off-wiki for identification purposes, and then back on-wiki to take steps against he editor in question? There needs to be a consistent policy on dealing with off-wiki doxing. Coretheapple (talk) 22:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

While I appreciate there are connections, I'm personally not that interested in the COI issue. Frankly, I've never entirely agreed with the far harder line against COI we're taking recently (you must disclose in certain circumstances) and basically stopped following the discussion when it became clear that's where it was headed.

Ultimately, I'm not sure if it's useful to get in to long arguments about whether open or closed discussion is superior. The point is that there are many reasons why a person may not want such open discussions about their personal details. All the evidence suggests Tutelary does not wish for such open discussion in this case. Since we can't discuss this evidence without talking in depth about what it says, and preferably linking to it, and since Tutelary can't reasonably respond without permitting people to do so, an arbcom case would be better here.

As I mentioned, I'm not sure what's going on in the COI space but I presume even there it's recognised that we can't resonably ignore information suggesting a serious problem, no matter our disgust as the process used. In some cases, even if the information was obtained illicitly (e.g. by hacking), if it's serious enough it can't resonably be ignored (as happens in real life). I would also hope there is a recognition of a difference between public doxing, which unfortunately happened here; and privately gathering information which is sent to arbcom where it can then be considered with the person given the opportunity to respond without anyone other than arbcom knowing of it come what may. (As mentioned, the person could chose for this to be a public discussion if they desire, with all the implications thereof. I do recognise arbcom hasn't always been a safe pair of hands with info in the past which is unfortunate, so people may consider that.)

While I'm not saying we should encourage such behaviour, I find it unresonable to suggest people are forbidden from searching for info on a person. It's surely something people do all the time both for editors here, and for others in life. I've been done it on occasion for years, for contributors I admire, contributors I have disagreements with and even contributors I myself have little direct experience with. I usually have sympathy when I find a wikipedicracy thread or encyclopediadramatica or whatever, although sometimes it does seem the person made silly decisions even if this doesn't justify what happened.

Either way, I don't think you'll get consensus that I'm wrong or contributing to the problem by doing these searches for personal interest. And I've never intended to use this information for anything and AFAIK have never done so. However if I did happen to find information suggesting a serious issue from a simple search, I would probably have sent it to arbcom and I'm not going to say (and doubt you'll get consensus) that would be wrong.

In a case where a person needs to do much more careful searching and analysis, like I'm pretty sure was needed for the Tutelary case, I do agree it's concerning, even if the info is only going to be sent to arbcom. But the point is I don't think there's a clear boundary between a simple search for personal interest and an intrusive investigation.

Nil Einne (talk) 12:01, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussions concerning COI policy/paid editing have fizzled out, but when they were active there was much discussion over "sleuthing" of all kinds to uncover COI and a general consensus that it was abhorrent. In fact it was trotted out by paid editing apologists as a reason to not strengthen COI rules (that there would be the very kind of sleuthing we're seeing here). Re offsite sleuthing to uncover COI, I can recall one specific case that came up on one of the noticeboards and backfired badly on the person bringing it. Coretheapple (talk) 13:32, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Maybe, but as I mentioned, I'm not, and I'm not sure anyone here is encouraging sleuthing to uncover anything anyway. I'm more interested in what we do when information was discovered, perhaps fairly innocently, perhaps not. As I've mentioned, this is a complicated issue but considering the possibilities, I don't think it's resonable to suggest any off-site search which happens to find something, regardless of the reasons for the search (whether it was a fairly innocent search or it was sleuthing) and how it was handled after this info was discovered, is abhorent. Actually I think we already recognise this to some extent. If someone has posted a link to their website onwiki and it still exists & they haven't removed the info, it's not generally considered outing for someone else to repost it. So no one is likely to sanction an editor for outing for posting the website, even if the editor wasn't even aware it was posted before. They may be reprimanded depending on the case and there could also be sanctions for harassment etc, again depending on the case. There isn't even likely to be any reprimand if the person knew it was posted before, but only found this out after the search. (Again harassment and other issues could still come in to play depending on how the website is used.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose ban - the editor has done nothing to justify a ban. Instead, blocks or final warnings should be issued to transphobic editors who are defending the WP:OUTING of a minor, and are harassing the said minor by dismissing her WP:IDENTITY. --Joshua Issac (talk) 14:36, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

How do you know that Tutelary is a minor? Do you imply that Tutelary is trans and that everyone who supports a topic/site ban is "transphobic"? What evidence do you have? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 18:42, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed if that is the claim I take great offence. While I didn't support a ban here, I did say I personally supported a ban. Yet I went to great pains in my answer precisely to avoid any such implication. Even for those who didn't, it's likely some share similar sentiments they just didn't want such a wordy comment. Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

The evidence is from the Wikipediocracy blog post that is being used as evidence against Tutelary.

1. How do you know that Tutelary is a minor?

The Wikipediocrats cyberstalked the kid and found "written and photographic evidence which suggests that [Tutelary] is in fact a young man attending a high school in [censored]".

2. Do you imply that Tutelary is trans

The blog claims that Tutelary initially identified as male, and later as transgendered, before identifying as female. This pattern is not unusual among transgendered women who were assigned the male gender at birth.

3. and that everyone who supports a topic/site ban is "transphobic"?'

No, I did not say this. But referring to Tutelary as "he" (which many have done) when she self-identifies as female is transphobic. Using the allegation that Tutelary has previously identified with other genders as "proof" that she is a fraud of a woman is also transphobic.

Of course, it is possible that none of this is actually true, and that the bloggers made everything up.

--Joshua Issac (talk) 17:35, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

You believe Wikipediocracy that Tutelary is a minor but you don't believe them that Tutelary is a man pretending to be a woman (to advance his POV and get access to people's computers)? Why? Didn't Wikipediocracy present evidence for the second claim and none for the first? Who are the many editors who knowingly referred to Tutelary as he? Transphobia is the dislike or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people. Are you insinuating that Tutelary is transgender and that people support a site/topic ban because they dislike transgender people? --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 18:45, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary, allegedly, claims to be transgender, and WO are disputing her identity. 72.89.93.231 (talk) 09:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. In addition to my concerns over doxing, I don't see sufficient basis for banning this person for life. Editors that engage in this kind of misconduct should get an opportunity to reform. I don't like the way this originated and I don't like the way people are piling on here. Coretheapple (talk) 18:32, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

But who's proposing a ban for life? Nil Einne (talk) 18:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

There's quite a bit of talk about a site ban. But I'm against a topic ban too, or any other action against this person (just to be clear). Coretheapple (talk) 16:47, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. I don't claim to understand the Quinn story, but if you want somebody banned you should have to come out with clear diffs indicating misbehavior here, not outing/opposition research. I have philosophical problems with the main charges here. To begin with, we have the peculiar situation where many editors are absolutely adamant about rejecting transphobic attitudes that criticize people who pretend to be a different sex by clothing or partial cosmetic surgery (indeed, it is objectionable even to say they are pretending) yet we are supposed to join a veritable lynch-mob when an editor is caught pretending to be another sex through the filter of online conversation. Riddle me that and come back. I also object to what seems like a suggestion by SlimVirgin and others that feminists ought to object to photos of breasts. I think feminists should be free to take on a variety of political positions, especially those compatible with the activities of FEMEN and those of activists in New York and Canada who have won their right to dress (and undress) in public the same way men do. My position on cyberbullying is that the only plausible way to oppose it is to give those subjected to it some extra latitude, bearing in mind that they are under a microscope so we are hearing more than the usual representation of misdeeds. I have seen something like this happen before with Fae, a far better editor subjected to far worse behavior by bullies, and Wikipedia badly failed him; I hope this time we can set a precedent to do better. Wnt (talk) 21:33, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose If a user is violating BLP, and can't be taught the error of their ways, they will be subject to a topic ban or other sanctions. Off-wiki speculations about an editor and so forth cannot legitimately form the basis of on-wiki sanctions, relating to disruptive editing. Either the editor is being disruptive or not - the rest is hot air. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC).
  
• Support site ban We are here to build an encyclopedia, not look at this rubbish. Op47 (talk) 17:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose a ban based on these vague, political, cobbled together charges. Wincent77 (talk) 20:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

FYI: Oppose= 32 / Support = 23

WP:NOTAVOTE. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted

That the people voting for 'support' have -not- substantiated their claims of my apparently disruptive behavior nor other allegations. Yet they keep mentioning it as if something -did- happen. Yes, I got doxxed, and I got a less than pleasant response, some of the people commenting here on this very noticeboard even implicating that I deserved it. The apparent 'disruptive' behavior (along with gross doxxing) was pointed out at Wikipediocracy...with exactly no diffs at all. The only thing that came close was the link to my user activity, which cites that my highly edited pages are evidence of 'dispruptive' editing. Again, there are no diffs or other on site evidence that points to such. Additionally, the people commenting here have not substantiated their claims either, indeed, Black Kite even stated Given the extremely convincing evidence posted elsewhere which implies that he/she knows there's no onsite proof that I've been disruptive. Tutelary (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't be disingenuous. You'd be whining even harder if somebody posted the evidence on the wiki, and then we'd have to oversight it all and waste even more of everyone's time. If I was in your position right now, I'd go and write a beautiful, properly sourced, neutral article that had absolutely nothing to do with Zoe Quinn/GamerGate to prove that I could be trusted to edit in keeping with the values of this project. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

But that's not what's happening here. You !voted to support the topic BLP ban without a single shred of a diff or evidence on wiki that I've been disruptive. Are you basing your !vote on Wikipediocracy's post where they freakin' doxxed me? And I really wish I could, my heart has been on pace for a couple days now and my blood pressure has spiked, I've been crying and getting emotional as of late and it's plainly obvious that it's Wikipedia that's causing it; even exacerbated by you attributing my concerns to just 'whining', and probably a violation of WP:CIVIL. Tutelary (talk) 21:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps this should be a lesson learned; do not wage campaigns against BLP subjects via a pseudonymous Wikipedia account, or else external forces may act to strip that pseudonymity away. Tarc (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

You've been exposed, elsewhere, for the liar and misogynist that you are. You just don't belong here. Sorry if that doesn't fit neatly enough into the wikirules for you. As for: "Uh, it is all explained offwiki. What happens offwiki stays offwiki." No. Not in Qworty's case. Not in yours. Why don't you just try to preserve a shred of dignity and go away. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:24, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Please be civil. WP:UNCIVIL 72.89.93.110 (talk) 02:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It would be hilarious were it not so embarrassing that we're entertaining a ban proposal on the basis of evidence which, if placed on wiki, would be oversighted away. Can someone just remove the fig leaf and post the article here? Otherwise I'm forced to ask (as a good citizen) what evidence do we have that Tutelary has misrepresented their identity? Obvious you know what the evidence is and I know what the evidence is, but how on earth am I to take a ban proposal seriously where posting the incipient piece of evidence would lead me to have my contributions oversighted or my account blocked? Protonk (talk) 13:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, that is a shortcoming in the Wikipedia bureaucracy...similar to how identifying conflict-of-interest editors can rub against outing concerns...but one that shouldn't prevent the project from doing the right thing if need be. "I can't link it here, therefore I cannot consider it" is hardly a compelling defense. Tarc (talk) 13:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It just makes the whole thing asinine. To be clear, I think someone should cowboy up and actually link the piece so we're not just salaciously suggesting that editors google correctly to find a blog that most of the participants in the discussion have already read. And I think the nature of the topic can lead us to forget just how fucking malicious the article actually is. Read the Excrement will happen section and tell me that's anything besides shitting on someone for not leading an appropriate public life. Questions about Tutelary aside (and I think there's an unfortunate parallel to the specious claims from assholes about how "Gamergate is just about journalistic integrity" to our claim that we're all just so worried that Tutelary passed as a woman), there's no defence for that shit. None. And we shouldn't be supporting it here. That's not some bureaucratic inconvenience, it's an expectation that you should be able to write articles on wikipedia anonymously or pseudonymously without some shitheel telling everyone your name, location and how much you like MLP fan fiction. As I mentioned above, I was outed because like TD I wasn't careful with the use of "protonk" between disparate forums and because WR didn't like my opinions about the BLP policy. We can reassure ourselves that there's a stronger "journalistic" imperative at work than merely pissing off some person with time on their hands and an axe to grind about wikipedia, but we're not making a strong case for that by laundering those claims in service of a site ban. Protonk (talk) 14:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

First, anyone that knows how to search on the interwebs can find the pages in question. One would think in order to be a prolific Wikipedia editor, searching the internet is 2nd nature. Second, we should have a policy based on cases like this, and the many that have came before it. Trolling or pretending to be someone you're not is not new on the webs. BBS boards and Usenet were/are full of that sort crap. Editors should ask themselves if they want that type of behavior to become prolific on this project, without any consequences, because of some circular reasoning about rules. Lastly, of course the editor should be topic banned at the very least, and probably site banned. I would like to see better rules on this project in dealing with this type of situation, no matter who the editor is. But until we do, I guess ad hoc reasoning and common sense should overrule circular reasoning and being forced to look the other way because of ....tongue in cheek pointing to rules. We aren't stupid, are we? Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the thing is, I think the notion of "writing articles on wikipedia anonymously or pseudonymously" is getting to be a bit of an outmoded ideal. For a lot of years that has shield a lot of nefarious deeds in this project. Let's put it this way; if a journalist at a reliable source pens a piece on GamerGate or Zoe Quinn or Anna Sarkeesian, that piece has a byline. An actual person has attached an actual identity to their words, and if there is something factually wrong or controversial or anything, Quinn et al can at least point to that journalist and say "hey, that's not right" and offer a rebuttal to a living, identifiable person. What recourse does Zoe Quinn have when someone known only as "Tutelary" accuses her of infidelity and ethics violations? Or "Titanium Dragon", whose contributions to the Quinn article were so egregious that dozens of his edits had to be oversighted. IMO, people like these two speak as they do about others because they do so under a fake name, just a handle on an internet forum. Strip that away, and have them post something that can be traced back to them personally, by name, just like any media journalist, and you may find that they will choose their words with a bit more care. I'm sorry that you yourself got doxxed by the old WR, but that crew, while there is some overlap with WO, was a very different and very nasty beast that attacked people they simply didn't like. WO is more of a vigilante, an Oliver Queen of the Wiki-sphere. The "Excrement" sub-section was a bit of a low-blow, but y'know, when adults are obsessed with tv shows written for 10yr-old girls, I really don't have a lot of sympathy. Being a teased Brony isn't a civil rights issue. Tarc (talk) 14:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

About using information from other sites: there have been precedents with the Arbcom I believe, with the Phil Sandifer situation, and with the Ironholds and Keifer Wolfowitz case, that off-wiki evidence could be considered in Arbcom cases, but anything with identifying information had to be presented by email. I also seem to remember some kind of policy, which I can't seem to find at the moment, that prohibits posting something that can damage someone's computer. If someone is claiming off-wiki that they are posing as a woman in order to convince users to download something that will introduce a trojan virus into their computer in order to get access to any porn images they may have stored in their cellphones, at the very least, someone should examine that individual's contributions to see if they are safe to leave up. —Neotarf (talk) 17:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

While several people supporting the ban have posted diffs I do think they should have been presented when the ban was proposed. One of the key features of evidence is that it should be evident. Chillum Need help? Type {{ping|Chillum}} 03:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There are a few diffs [redact, has dox links] --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

One of the key features of a ban proposal is that people who are likely to be interested should be notified. Has the gender gap project been notified? I believe Tutelary and Titanium Dragon have both paid them a visit. What about the other talk pages where they have been editing? ——Neotarf (talk) 05:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Notified Gender Gap project. --GRuban (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm noticing my two edits are being rev-deleted yet my comment on here remains? Can anybody explain why revisions are being deleted (mine in particular), or is it an effort to get rid of dox links like Anthony had stated above? Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 19:00, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not sure why this is being called "doxxing". Tutelary's real name has not been mentioned aither here or elsewhere, merely posting made by him at Reddit and hackforums. This, as far as I am aware, is not either doxxing or outing. Black Kite (talk) 19:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm just curious as to what's up with all the rev-deletions. Citation Needed | He cites it for free. 19:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

So am I, and I've asked the admin concerned for an explanation. What was rev-del'd was simply links to comments made on external sites. No personal information was mentioned. Black Kite (talk) 19:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Doxxing: "publishing personally identifiable information about an individual". You don't consider posting (atleast a supposed) picture of a Wikipedia editor personally identifiable information (and studying place)? --Pudeo' 20:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

"... although our standards of publishing prevent us from releasing certain personally identifying information about potentially underage persons." By your own definition, what Wikipediocracy did with Tutelary is not "doxxing". --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't pretend to be silly, a picture clearly showing one's face is personally identifiable, especially given that the university name was released. ("Does anyone know this student?"...) As stated on Mike_V's talk page, the oversight was reviewed and approved by two different oversighters. If you disagree, you should email AudCom. --Pudeo' 19:41, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be hallucinating. There is not and never has been any mention of a university or the name of any other institute of learning on that page, and the page does not and never did contain such an image as you describe (see the editor's note). Andreas JN466 19:55, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You are right about the school, it was just on state level. However, it did contain a personally identifiable picture. The editor's note in fact states they removed the picture. --Pudeo' 20:14, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's just be accurate about this. The post did not contain a picture. The editor's note says, "An earlier version of this post contained a link to publicly viewable photographs (mirror selfies) of Ging287, which he uploaded to an image sharing site five years ago when a teenager. The link was removed upon request by a Twitter user." Andreas JN466 20:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Earlier versions did contain photos, they have removed it. I have an archive link from when they did. I also am sickened by the fact that they still consider me a male, when I've made it quite freakin' clear that I am not. It's insulting and harassment. Also, it wouldn't be able to be linked anywho for it contains dox information of another Wiki editor. Tutelary (talk) 20:39, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Come on, we all saw the post. There was a link to a photo page, but not the photos themselves. Andreas JN466 21:13, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Could you please double- or triple-check that, Andreas? I read the article fairly soon after it was posted and saw no photo of Ging, but perhaps it was taken down early. Tutelary, could you please email me the archive link? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

100% positive on that. Andreas JN466 22:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary just emailed me the archived version of the Wikipediocracy blog post and it did not contain the photo/s in question. It contained a link to another site that hosted photos. That link has since been removed. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:31, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Anthonyhcole. For your own safety, I would suggest you check your computer for trojans, as there is a user Tutelary on hackforums.net who uses the same name and surname that Tutelary has used on Wikimedia sites, and who explains at some length there how he installs Remote Access Trojans on users' computers by getting them to click on links, open e-mail attachments and so forth. Better safe than sorry. Andreas JN466 00:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You're kidding. Link? (I will run a malware scan. Thanks.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:31, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

He is definitely not kidding, and you better use an updated version of Malware Bytes. At the very least. PS: I moved your post so as to keep the thread continuous. Dave Dial (talk) 00:37, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh Lord. I just saw the IP post #above. Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:41, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Dave Dial or Andreas, I've just re-read the links in the IP's post #above and can't see any corroboration for the claim that "Tutelary acknowledges hacking a persons computer and stealing information." I admit I'm very technically ignorant and may well be missing something, but could one of you please explain what those linked pages say about breach of privacy? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:11, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Try this link, they explain in detail how they do it [29] --5.81.51.98 (talk) 02:21, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks 5.81. I think I'm getting it now. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:30, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• For the record, I just indef'd Doxelary (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Whether it's Tutleary or someone pretending to be, I offer no opinion. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Would a possible sock check be worth looking into? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd say yes. If a checkuser were to determine that it was really Tutelary making that post on Jimbo's talk page, that would change me to supporting a site ban. But it could also easily be a so-called Joe job. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC) And it would be worse because Tutelary welcomed Doxelary on talk. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The welcoming is less a matter of me welcoming a sock (I only have one Wikipedia account) but more a fact of some minor OCD going off. Two red links in a row just annoys me so I welcome them; I get rid of that annoying feeling and I welcome a new contributor to Wikipedia. Win win. Tutelary (talk) 23:45, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell:, why did you hardblock the user indefinitely per WP:NOTHERE? What did the user do wrong in any context of disruption? Additionally, you revoked talk page and email access, which is specifically prohibited per WP:HARDBLOCK unless there is evidence of disruption on those avenues; which there doesn't seem to be. Tutelary (talk) 23:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Let me be clear nobody is saying you have socked but given how it is connected it should be looked into. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

At this point though I see no harm in checking, you are right it could be a wrong tree but it is just another red flag going off. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Knowledgekid87 is right here. Someone spoofing a user name only to contribute an edit to discuss that user? You (tutelary) don't see how that could be disruptive? When it's your own user name? We don't need pseudo-twotelary's (or knowledgekid88's or knowledgekid89's) running around, I don't think.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I have my assumption of good faith and to the fact that 1. They could be asked to change their username. or 2. I'm not sure of a site wide policy that bans impersonation of very close usernames (in this case I think it was intentional as googling 'Doxelary" doesn't come up with anything, probably lack of good imagination and decided to use my name but change up a letter) and 3. Hardblocking email and talk page when there is no abuse in those avenues is specifically prohibited per WP:HARDBLOCK. I see HJ Mitchell not responding to my query yet editing other pages...admins are to be accountable. Tutelary (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

A sock check on Doxelary would be apt given the individual's expressed familiarity with Wikipedia and Wikipediocracy. I highly doubt it is Tutelary. GamerGate people are discussing this all over Twitter, 4chan, and Reddit. One of them, perhaps one who has a past here, could have easily popped in to comment.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:20, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Misleading usernames are disruptive and distracting, regardless of origin. If The Devil's Avocado suddenly appeared to participate only in this thread, my opinion would be the same.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:29, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I am tempted to start an SPI on this; I have seen stranger things before than a bad hand account. Even if the account isn't Tulary there is a chance that it is one of the usual suspects --Guerillero | My Talk 04:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

And I was more than just tempted. Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tutelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:43, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, this should clear up this loose end if there is any. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Taking note of some editors referring to "the usual suspects", it might perhaps be helpful for them to comment on that at the SPI, but in a specific manner, rather than leaving it for the rest of us to guess about. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

We should only consider the edits he made to articles here. If assume for argument's sake that all the other allegations are correct, then that's a perfectly acceptable tactic one may use to get a point accross. We can strongly disagree with the point being made, but it's a tactic that has been used many times, often with positive effects. Take e.g. the Sokal affair, or James Randi letting a few of his apprentices pretend to be psychics so that his criticism of the parapsychology field would finally be taken serious (and it indeed worked). If a group of people is right on an issue and Tutelary joins that group, misrepresenting himself and attempting to act as an agent provocateur, then nothing bad can happen. Being right makes the group immune to its positions being debunked. Instead of condemning such actions, we should embrace it. Count Iblis (talk) 03:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Note that I made the assumed that Tutelary is a male only for argument's sake without me personally taking a position in this dispute. Since Tutelary has made it clear that she is a female and she did that also personally to me when she objected to me using "himself" to refer to her above , I need to make clear that unless proven otherwise, Tutelary should be considered a female as that's how she identifies herself. She asked me to change "him" into "her" in the above posting, but I don't think I should do that because above I refer to a hypothetical Tutelary who really is male if one assumes that her critics are correct. Count Iblis (talk) 22:28, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It's the misogyny that's the problem. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I asked you before. Don't call other editors misogynist without good reason. Please be civil. WP:CIVL 72.89.93.110 (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you referring to the edit where you said: Nobody on Wikipedia is harassing people. Where do you draw the line between criticism and harassment? Because it's a problem if people are intimidated against calling out shitty/abusive behavior when they see it.? __ E L A Q U E A T E 20:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference between calling out on abusive behavior and throwing epithets like Joseph McCarthy. --Pudeo' 20:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you calling an editor Joe McCarthy? __ E L A Q U E A T E 21:21, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm pointing to the absurdity of Eric Corbett, a total non-misogynist (though frequent equal-opportunity uncivil dick head) being labelled a misogynist and dragged to "arbitration" for frankly speaking his mind at the gender-gap task force, while the seriously misogynist Tutelary and Tutelary's concern-troll mates all-but extinguish the task force by drowning it in their oh-so-civil "men's rights" word-salad. Classic. Just perfect. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

It's better to stick to the on-Wiki problems. Things like editing disputes, tendentious editing, harassment etc. etc. What Tutelary does elsewhere is neither here nor there, it can only be used as supplementary evidence. If I harass Jews on Wikipedia but in some of these cases you could consider that to be borderline cases of harassment, then me posting on Neo-Nazi forums may be relevant evidence in an ArbCom case to bolster the case against me. But you can't turn this around, a Neo-Nazi can in principle be a good contributor to Wikipedia. Count Iblis (talk) 22:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Did you read what I wrote? Tutelary and friends with their anti-woman agenda and endless specious crap arguments swamped and trashed the gender gap task force. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Godwin? But let me use your analogy this once: In principle, yes. But not if they made unconstructive edits in civil rights activists' BLPs and stressed their supposed ethnicity ("fellow black person here") in community discussions about racism. --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 23:42, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know who Eric Corbett is, but take it up with him, not un-related individuals. Peace. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 23:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

If disruption at the gender gap task force is the main problem then let's just focus on that problem. Count Iblis (talk) 01:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Just close

Anyone else feel that this all manufactured trolling from 4chan and reddit? All "sides" that have created this appear to benefit from publicity whether it's an obscure indie game developer, washed-up hollywood actor, or single cause advocates looking for attention. I see all the political hot-topic buzzwords being hashtagged with the "controversy" as if they are tied (hint: hacking Apple and privacy violations has no connection to gaming or misogyny or feminism unless your trying to troll those that feel strongly about those topics on 4chan or reddit). Wikipedicracy extended the trolling to WP. Given the reputation of 4chan and reddit and the level of discourse - I'm calling shenanigans and we are all being trolled to pay attention to something that is largely irrelevant to the vast majority of people. Don't feed the trolls. Stop, close and ignore. --DHeyward (talk) 05:35, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, dude? If you can't see the connection between misogyny and gaming, you obviously haven't been paying attention because there's been volumes written about it lately. You think that Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian wanted to have misogynist bile endlessly spat at them just so that they could get more publicity? Those "men's rights advocates" on Reddit aren't trolling - they actually seem to believe that vile crap. Editors who hang out in those forums are bringing it here. Wikipediocracy just exposed what has been getting worse for quite a while. This issue has become a festering sore and will only get worse if it isn't dealt with. Kaletony (talk) 15:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)Please see #UPDATE: user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

No, "dude", I see a connection between 16-18 y/o boys that define their view of relationships/girls/sex somewhere between Hollywood fantasy and porn - and the industry that caters to it (Hollywood, porn, gaming). They also cater to their views on violence and crime. The boys act it out on reddit and 4chan, and yes, they are trolling (successfully) if you think "men's rights" is anywhere near reddit or 4chan. Nor is there any non-trolling feminist areas on those sites. I also wouldn't use pathological terms like "misogyny" to describe preformed views expressed by adolescents. These "issues" being flung across twitter are akin to the activists that opposed SpongeBob SquarePants on the basis the cartoon sponge was "gay" and the various "debates" that sprung up. --DHeyward (talk) 17:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

MeMills is topic banned from all men's rights related pages and discussions. They are neither an adolescent boy nor a troll. SPECIFICO was just handed an interaction ban with a prominent female editor. They are neither an adolescent nor a troll. Even if your opinion were correct, why would we ignore adolescent trolls? Some editors here are trying to maintain neutral articles about these subjects - why should they have to deal with trolls and zealots? And what difference does it make if someone is trolling by taking an extreme postion or if they honestly believe it? It isn't the ideas that are the problem here, it's the actions. And the actions speak for themselves. Troll or not, people like Tutelary need to be shown the door. Kaletony (talk) 21:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You are missing it. Topics whose notability is derived from reddit, 4chan or wikipediocracy are simply not notable. It's trolling. There is a difference between administering editor behavior here vs. giving voice to trolling from over there. The fact that you equate what happens on reddit, 4chan and wikipediocracy as notable discourse on feminism, misogyny or men's rights is rather disturbing. None of the items you mentioned is related to each other. For that reason trolls, who come here to fight for/against Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian because reddit or 4chan ridiculed them or harassed them is trolling - and unrelated to editor behavior here. Women are harassed all the time and that is a general issue but reddit isn't a particularly different place that deserves special attention. Your local courthouse has public records of every order of protection and it isn't news or noteworthy and they are worse than what goes on at reddit or 4chan or wikipediocracy. Those sites are the adolescent version of IRL harassment and threats. Being on reddit or 4chan or wikipediocracy doesn't add to their claims or notability but if we feed it, it will surely grow. That's all they are known for - adolescent trolling. Conversely, actresses that are already notable that had personal photos stolen is a real issue outside the echo chamber and they had notability prior to the act. If you knew how many photos were stolen from non-celebrities you would realize that the reddit angle is meaningless. In short, editors that bring trolling from those sites in the form of increasing eyeballs to those sites should be dealt with swiftly and the articles dealt with just as swiftly. Editors that behave badly in general are already taken care of. They are unrelated issues as the bringing reddit/4chan/wikipediocracy here is trolling. Your conflation of Specifico/CMDC interaction with anything other than Specifico/CMDC and specifically related to CMDC's gender is a gross mischaracterization and understanding of that interaction ban as well as being unrelated to this discussion. --DHeyward (talk) 02:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. If you think the things they talk about on Reddit, 4chan and Wikipediocracy have no overlap with Wikipedia then you must wear blinders. Both about those sites and about Wikipedia. Maybe you honestly do think that it's just kids playing around. It isn't. Kaletony (talk) 03:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

"The things" they talk about are too broad a characterization to say they don't overlap. Your connection of CMDC/Specifico to this discussion are an example of the problem of feeding trolls. It appears from your argument that because reddit speaks like adolescents about women and feminists and that it is therefore simply an extension of WP's discussion regarding women editors and feminists and all discussions regarding women can be framed in terms defined by reddit. That is not the case as reddit has no notable views on women's issues or notable views on wikipedia. CMDC/Specifico isn't even remotely related and you've offered no connection other than an observation that one editor is female. Reddit doxxing is the internet version of writing a girls address and phone number with "for a good time call Jenny 867-5309" on the high school bathroom. It's very disconcerting and serious to the girl and the school and provides plenty of juvenile gossip and drama as well as serious discussions of harassment at the school appropriate for adolescents but is not notable. Stealing personal photo's and publishing them is a crime. The current high-profile theft case in the news is notable for WP because the subjects are notable, not just because they are salacious or prurient. Salacious and prurient photos are stolen/published all the time, even among adolescents that live for salacious and prurient, and are routinely prosecuted/punished without even a whisper in the news or Wikipedia. But adolescents that have not developed their own identity and live in a world defined by idealizations/stereotypes because they have an underdeveloped sense of self and others, as all children do, is not the place to look for adult characterizations on interactions between various groups. A fourteen year old gamer whose only real-life "adult relationship" with a women comes from a torn out and sticky page he got from his older brother is not the starting point for complex adult discussions on misogyny, feminism or women (nor is their strategy for winning battles in violent video games a starting point for foreign policy). And while a 14 y/o may not be able to distinguish his relationship with that torn-out picture and a mature adult relationship (or his fantasy relationship with Katniss Everdeen with an adult relationship), adults can, and should. Those sites offer no real insight into anything other than the minds of juveniles and transferring it here only makes WP more juvenile. --DHeyward (talk) 05:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I thought we agreed to disagree? Now you're arguing with me about things I haven't even said. Maybe someone else wants to explore your theories about adolescent boys, but I don't. Kaletony (talk) 13:33, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

"Dude", I thought so too. And then you started to argue about "what I think" that I've never thought nor written. Apparently you want Wikipedia to document encounters of non-notable trolling by adolescent boys. We don't need to explore or document any of it, even your pet interests. --DHeyward (talk) 22:18, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• "Ignore" may work for those who can forget about this matter once it disappears from this page, but it won't help the editors and admins who have spent many hours struggling with these articles and the barrage of new editors. I've never had to use revision delete so many times on a single set of articles before, which should give you an idea of the seriousness of this matter. Gamaliel (talk) 15:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: why have you not used sanctions for "biographical content" problems. The rest of us cannot read what you revdel. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:12, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I am considering issuing topic bans against particular editors under these sanctions if the irresponsible behavior continues, especially since the drama mongering on this board makes it unlikely that it will be able to seriously address this issue. I've already blocked one editor for 24 hours and had to warn another. Gamaliel (talk) 21:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I mean "ignore" the topic, as in sanction editors that are flocking here to "cover" reddit, 4chan and now wikipediocracy as if this is the permanent repository of whatever drama they created in those sites. --DHeyward (talk) 17:59, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I also agree that closing this now wouldn't be productive, 4chan is considered by many to be the cesspool of the internet now that it appears that they are involved some action needs to be taken. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

The EU should impose sanctions on reddit, 4chan, and wikipediocracy for stoking unrest on Wikipedia. Count Iblis (talk) 18:10, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• As much as it would be very nice if all the nastiness on "teh internets" would pack its childish self up and go away, the obvious reality is that we still have some very serious unresolved issues here on Wikipedia, and consensus has not yet been reached. At the very least, we need to keep this open until the SPI investigation is resolved. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:00, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary may be a false flag person created by Wikipediocracy to try to change our policies here

While I'm of the position that we should assume that Tutelary is for real, address her as a woman because she self identifies that way etc. etc., when we consider imposing restrictions we need to consider all the possibilities here including those that when taken seriously may be insulting to Tutelary. There is the real possibility that someone at Wikipediocracy has created an account named "Tutelary" on different forums who behaves in a politically incorrect way, including here at Wikipedia. When that online footprint is made, that person with his regular moniker then starts a discussion about this "Tutelary" on Wikipediocracy, who he claims to have stumbled into and some research he did uncovered that he is not to be trusted, yet Wikipedia looks like tolerating this person. The goal is then to get this person blocked without going through the regular processes here on Wikipedia. A precedent is then set where evidence posted on Wikipediocracy alone is sufficient to ban someone here. The real target may thus not be Tutelary but someone else against whom Wikipediocracy has a weaker case (or just to have the precedent set for the future if this is ever needed). They would then be holding back until Tutelary is banned here. They will then post the evidence about that other case and we may then end up acting on the Tutelary precedent. Count Iblis (talk) 20:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The only thing less plausible than this, is that you were being serious when you said it. moluɐɯ 23:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Tutelary created his account here January 7th 2012. He made no edits until October 27th 2013, but doesn't really start editing regularly until February 2014. Hmmm, no edits for almost two whole years after creating the account? That's kinda odd. When does thsi false Wikipediocracy trail start? Kaletony (talk) 23:59, 15 September 2014 (UTC)Please see #UPDATE: user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Kaletony (talk) created his/her account on 13 September 2014. But when does Katetony's real trail start? Perhaps this sockpuppet investigation will find out. Memills (talk) 00:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Kaletony has been indefinetly blocked by Drmies for 'obviously using an alternative account.' I don't know what other alternative account(s) Kaletony has used, but it should be interesting if the SPI can find out. Memills (talk) 04:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Bullshit. KonveyorBelt 00:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Not sure if trolling, or... Tarc (talk) 03:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• In the Manning ArbCom case you demonstrated that this is easy to do. You didn't do what you did to subvert the outcome of the case and you made public what you did after the end of the case, but in principe you could have done that. Any system that is not governed by strict rules and principles where subjective judgements, people's gut feelings etc. play an imporant role is vulnerable to be subverted by agent provocateurs. That's why my point is that we must not deviate from the fundamental principle that people should only be banned based on clear on-Wiki disruption. Whether or not Tutelary is really an agent provacateur isn't the point, just that for all we know, this could be the case. Count Iblis (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  I would like to throw out there that Tutelary is actually the MediaWiki software, having gained sentience. I mean, we don't know this *isn't* the case, so we should consider it just in case. moluɐɯ 22:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  Well, we can actually rule this out on theoretical grounds, see e.g. here :). Thing is that on the internet it's child's play to create the cyber equivalent of Operation Northwoods. Count Iblis (talk) 01:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

  That's not fair. My theory is exactly as plausible as yours. moluɐɯ 20:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• As long as we're going here, I suppose it's worth pointing out that Count Iblis' argument relies on the controversial claim that Wikipedia and Wikipediocracy aren't both operated by the NSA. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 03:34, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Do'h.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• [30]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have no opinion as to whether this rather convoluted scenario laid out by Count Iblis is correct, but I agree that relying on material posted outside of Wikipedia can be problematic and should be approached with caution. Remember too that if this kind of evidence is to be used to ban people, it can also be used in lesser situations such as COI investigations. Coretheapple (talk) 20:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  Indeed. Count Iblis (talk) 01:44, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• My mind, is blown. What an intense idea! Grognard Chess (talk) Help:Getting rid of Media Viewer 03:25, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• In college I smoked so much marijuana one time that I thought David Bowie was god and that he was communicating with earthlings through the track structure of certain greatest hits albums. I encourage those inclined to adopt convoluted theories to keep the hell away from Colorado. Carrite (talk) 21:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• How do you know the chinese aren't really the ones behind this, @Count Iblis:? Intrepid #GamerGate supporters over at the GamerGate wiki have uncovered evidence of wikipediocracy's shadowy connections to a chinese spy ring. 146.185.183.119 (talk) 20:23, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Three ways this can end

1. Tutelary is banned for any of the above offense ad everyone goes on their way.
2. This discussion closes as no consensus in which case editors would either apologize to Tutelary or just ignore all that has happened and move on their way.
3. Tutelary is found to have done no wrong doing in which case editors would apologize (At least I hope) for everything that has happened.

No matter how you look at it based on how much feedback this has gotton I doubt that Tutelary will come out of this unscathed somehow, something to think about regardless of the outcome. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Either an innocent person has been dragged through the mill at Wikipedia ANI because of a blog at an external site or, if information above is to believed, a beginner 'black hat' hacker, with extremely poor 'OpSec' (Operational Security) has been easily doxed and offered up to Feds on a silver platter for alleged use of RATs, and is facing the sharp end of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act because of it. AnonNep (talk) 12:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm saying the following partly in the context of this part of the discussion, and also partly in the context of the subsection above, about the scenario of a false flag. There is a checkuser investigation going on now, and we should let that go ahead and see what it tells us. Until then, I think that we need to keep open minds, and regard offsite accusations with due skepticism. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Which CU investigation do you mean? This one or this one? -Thibbs (talk) 03:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I was unaware of the second one when I wrote that, but now that I am, they are obviously interrelated. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:40, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't like the idea that someone is going around claiming to be female and making use of that deception to gain advantage, if that is what happened. But there are a lot of people who claim erudition, ethnic background and other traits to gain advantages in discussions, and there is no way of verifying what they say unless they provide verifiable personal information. It's one thing for an editor to refer to himself as a female, a physicist or whatever, but people who believe such claims assume the risk that such claims are false or distorted. Perhaps another possible outcome is to educate people on that fact. I don't like the witch hunt atmosphere promoted by this kind of offsite sleuthing, and we have to weigh whether that is more harmful than the misconduct alleged. Tutelary has already been punished by the publicity. Coretheapple (talk) 14:01, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Well one thing is that the user could stop saying "as a woman..." to win content disputes and start relying more on references --5.81.53.114 (talk) 00:41, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Even better, to disregard any such statements by anybody unless their real identity is both verifiable and relevant to the discussion. That's just basic Internet common sense. Coretheapple (talk) 13:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Who are you addressing that to? Myself? Other users? Admins? That would be wonderful but it's unlikely to happen. If somebody says "as a woman, I have no issue with a cropped photo of Power Girls breasts being the sole image on her article" then they are clearly using their supposed identity to win the content dispute --5.81.52.138 (talk) 17:21, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I was making a general comment. The question is not that it's bad to be deceptive, but whether Wikipedia can or should "outsource" investigations to uncover deception, as in effect is happening here. What I'm suggesting is that we should judge what people say by the quality of their ideas and not the unverifiable statements they make about themselves. Coretheapple (talk) 19:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

UPDATE: user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary

The plot thickens.

An SPI concluded that user:Kaletony is a sock of user:Doxelary II, and, possibly user:Doxelary. Diff. User:Kaletony has been indefinitely blocked. How many other sock accounts this person has is anyone's guess. Memills (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

And thickening it even further, please compare [31] and [32]. We obviously have a case of good hand, bad hand socking here, and clear disruption of this ANI discussion. I am about to strike out all of Kaletony's edits here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, and now that we have that cleared it is looking less likely that Tutelary socked. In the event that Tutelary did not sock the decision I see rests on the other evidence provided. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Without getting too WP:BEANSy, there is another possibility, so let's please let the SPI process run its course. But I hope that you are correct, and if that turns out to be the case, a lot of the arguments for a ban are going to look weaker and weaker. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I thought that all of the original concerns about Tutelary had nothing to do with sock puppetry? That issue was completely tertiary to the discussion. The concerns were about what Tutelary was doing with their single named account vs. what people believed they were doing on completely other sites. The suspicion about a possible sock only developed because a name popped up that was very close to Tutelary's, but that happened after all the arguments for a ban were being discussed. The SPI cleared that one situation, which is nice, but it has nothing to do with the doxxing issues. An SPI can't "clear" Tutelary about anything to do with the original issues. __ E L A Q U E A T E 00:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

It can do one of at least two things. It can turn up further reason to be concerned about Tutelary, or it can discredit some of the arguments against Tutelary. (I realize, of course, that there is no way that it can discredit all or even most of those arguments against, although anyone who came to this discussion with good faith concerns about misogyny and who might understandably object to aspersions being cast on their good faith concerns because of a possible SPI result should consider how aspersions arising from an external website might look when the shoe is on the other foot.) I hope that editors who favor a ban, based upon the original issues, realize that a consensus for such a ban, based upon the original issues, has not occurred. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

But a clean SPI relating to a single sockpuppet case has absolutely nothing to do with the validity or invalidity of the arguments against Tutelary that were discussed. By a light-hearted analogy, if the original charge was "someone stole a cupcake" and then somebody shouted their car keys were missing, and we did a search and found who took the car keys, it doesn't prove or disprove anything whether the person stole the cupcake. __ E L A Q U E A T E 00:53, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that what I said? --Tryptofish (talk) 01:00, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I just wanted to make it bit clearer that any SPI would only help discredit a single specific argument that Tutelary was a particular sockpuppet. That's it. I wouldn't read anything into it beyond that. __ E L A Q U E A T E 01:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

None of this is about the user creating a sockpuppet during the ANI process. How could a user be brought to ANI about something they do during the process. It's about the gaming of the Wiki to promote a sexist ideology and breaking WP:BLP rules --5.81.53.114 (talk) 00:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess some of them don't realize that a consensus has not occurred. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:45, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Whoever shouts consensus first wins, don't you know how Wikipedia works? --5.81.53.114 (talk) 00:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• The two SPI investigations have been closed and archived. Whoever Kaletony/Doxelary was, it was someone who was trying to disrupt this situation, and it definitively was not Tutelary. So I think one thing that is clear is that this entire case has had an awful lot of interference from people outside of Wikipedia, from start to finish, some of it based, apparently, in good-faith concerns about eliminating misogynistic content, but a lot of it just ugly and disruptive. Another thing that is clear, at least to me, is the complete absence of evidence here of Tutelary having added BLP-violating material in article space. This ANI thread might as well be closed now. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Good points, Tryptofish (talk).

" ...whoever Kaletony/Doxelary was, it was someone who was trying to disrupt this situation..." There is currently a sockpuppet investigation to investigate whether Kaldari was "that someone." Memills (talk) 04:58, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any closure until the TBAN/BAN discussion is determined. The focus is on Tutelary, not Kaletony or Titanium Dragon. Tutelary's fate needs to be determined one way or the other before the discussion can be satisfactorily closed. KonveyorBelt 19:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

That's what I meant about closure: determine consensus and close. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:37, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Why? It's obvious too many editors are too naive/ignorant to understand that allowing an anti-feminist MRA advocate pose as transgendered, join a task force, disrupt processes, insert numerous BLP violations, and then use the Chelsea Manning case as a protective coating is very much a net negative to the project. Too many well meaning editors want diffs that can't be provided. Either because of 'outing' or because they have been rev del'd for BLP violations. The process is a joke. Hold on a minute while I look the other way as some dude is yanking my chain. Who did it? There are only two people in the room, but I can't accuse the other guy because he's wearing his Chelsea invisi-cloak. Dave Dial (talk) 17:02, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I am neither naive nor ignorant – nor insensitive to concerns about anti-feminism. It has become abundantly clear that the "diffs that can't be provided" can't be provided because they do not exist, not because they were revdeled. Perhaps too many editors just want to be able to ban editors whom they dislike. I can think of quite a few other editors whom I happen to dislike, in fact. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Sigh......smh. Dave Dial (talk) 6:56 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4)

Titanium Dragon's topic ban

• I hesitate to say anything that will delay the bot from archiving this, but I think that it should be noted that Gamaliel has topic banned Titanium Dragon from the Quinn/Gamers pages under the BLP discretionary sanctions (a decision with which I personally agree). I doubt that anything else is going to come of these discussions, and I hope that an uninvolved admin will close this discussion soon. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:33, 22 September 2014 (UTC) I just want to point out that I did not start this new sub-section. Someone else added the header later. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Hatting inappropriate material. If Devil's Advocate wants to make these serious charges stick, they are encouraged to start a separate thread. Drmies (talk) 01:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Unfortunately, the sanctioning admin, Gamaliel, is WP:INVOLVED up to his nose and shouldn't be issuing any sanctions in that topic area. Seems there is a lot of that going on in the topic area.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 17:56, 22 September 2014 (UTC) That is a serious accusation and I ask that you either substantiate that or strike it. Gamaliel (talk) 18:13, 22 September 2014 (UTC) Being involved purely in an administrative role is entirely in line with policy. Making accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence, on the other hand, is a patent violation of policy.--Cúchullain t/c 18:29, 22 September 2014 (UTC) I'll say two things again. I agree with Gamaliel's sanction, and I hope that this discussion will be closed. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:43, 22 September 2014 (UTC) Sure Gamaliel, I mean, I could point out the extensive contributions you have made to discussion (not merely removing comments you consider BLP violations but challenging multiple arguments), but I am sure you would write off some using some mealy-mouthed interpretation of the policy, but there really is no getting around comments such as these: [33] [34] [35] [36]. Gamaliel is taking sides in the dispute and using his admin tools to further the interests of that side.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 19:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC) I'm not sure how you are defining "extensive contributions", but two of those links aren't even to the article talk pages, and the two that are are probably half of the things that I've actually posted there. I spend most of my time on those articles rev deleting and warning, not discussing. These links are me 1) providing two RSes that were being overlooked in the discussion at time 2) objecting to TD's repeated use of an offensive pejorative in talk page discussion and suggesting an alternative wording for him to use 3) thanking a user for his excellent work in attempting to explain and enforce RS and BLP on the talk page, but not for any edits or positions that he has made or taken 4) suggesting that the community topic ban TD for behavior that would continue and escalate, leading to my topic ban. What is missing from these links is any evidence that I am "taking sides in the dispute", unless that side is the one that says Wikipedia articles should say what reliable sources say and that you shouldn't make up shit about living people and post in on the talk page of their article. I don't know a damn thing about gamers and gaming culture so the idea that I would take sides in one of their disputes is silly. Gamaliel (talk) 20:55, 22 September 2014 (UTC) The Devil's Advocate, I gave you a barnstar last night because I believe your thoughtful rewrite of the Gamergate controversy article made a significant improvement on a very thorny article. Does that make me an involved supporter of your POV? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:12, 22 September 2014 (UTC) Those are the "extensive contributions"? Talk about grasping at straws.--Cúchullain t/c 21:34, 22 September 2014 (UTC) No those are not the extensive contributions to which I was referring, I am just including the things that are clearly suggestive of a POV. I mean, I think actively disputing the reliability of sources and challenging claims disputing the reliability of other sources to the extent that Gamaliel has on the article talk page is problematic overall since it is very hard to separate his actions and comments from that of non-admins engaged in the dispute, but I just singled out the edits that I think are most suggestive of a particular POV on the issue. His statement that "Any discussion of GamerGate supposedly being about 'corruption' should note the reliable sources pointing out the complainers' complete disinterest in actual corruption" is clearly partisan in nature. That he praises an editor on one side while calling to ban some on the other side, including Tutelary whose editing has so far not been seriously challenged as problematic with cited evidence anywhere in this discussion, points to someone with a POV on the issue taking part in the dispute. Admins should not take action in such cases.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 22:34, 22 September 2014 (UTC) First of all, it's absurd to say that Tutelary's editing "has so far not been seriously challenged as problematic" when you are complaining about my post about Tutelary in an ANI thread about Tutelary's problematic editing. Second, I don't believe "actively disputing the reliability of sources and challenging claims disputing the reliability of other sources" is an accurate description of my participation there, which is the occasional chiming in to say things like "Brietbart is a shitty source in any article" and "no, we can't dismiss the entirety of the news media because you think they are biased". In regards to my "corruption" remark, I only pointed out what the reliable sources were saying, I didn't advocate any particular edit or way of using those sources. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, so it's not taking a position on an article to say that we need to take into account what the reliable sources are saying. Were I terribly concerned about the appearance of impropriety, I would have worded my comment about corruption differently, but I'm not terribly concerned about appearances. Mostly my lack of concern stems from knowing that people will accuse you of whatever they've made up their mind about regardless of the actual facts. You seem to have decided long ago that I am untrustworthy, based on your comments on Wikipediocracy and the fact that last year you accused me on this page of deliberate deception because I misremembered what particular Kennedy article I posted a comment about eight years previously. Now you've decided I'm taking sides because of a flippant remark. If we're going to talk about bring a POV to the table, we should talk about yours. Gamaliel (talk) 23:30, 22 September 2014 (UTC) REALLY Gamaliel? Mind if I point you to the the fact you deleted an 1000-word comment on the GamerGate-talk page of mine because an +- 20 word line you didn't like because I referenced an certain hashtag you falsely accused of being 'bashing a certain food chain'? You're up to your neck into POV-editing (I just noticed the closed Delete-talk too). I've got an account here, but because of the verbal abuse I've received from a couple of people here (including a couple of false accusations of being an WP:SPA and wikipedia-talk page stalking) I'm quite hesistant to log into Wikipedia now, especially now I notice the admin noticeboards are populated way too often by the same people who attempt to hijack the GamerGate article (and currently have done so judging by the conspicious lack of some previously used RSes) and other articles. 85.113.249.206 (talk) 02:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC) A "certain hashtag", eh? You mean I wouldn't let people use the talk page to repeat a slut-shaming slur against the subject of the article. I enforced this prohibition with everyone on both sides of the issue, and the evidence is the complaints all over my talk page. Gamaliel (talk) 02:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC) It is not absurd as this whole discussion has been a farce from the outset. No one has presented any evidence against Tutelary that would warrant any action. That you were so quick to get on with the farce, in light of your other comments and actions, strongly suggests you have a vested interest in the outcome of the content dispute in which you have participated and thus are involved.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 03:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC) So my "POV" has now escalated to "vested interest"? Still waiting on the evidence. I suspect in a few days you will accuse me of being one of the guys who slept with Zoe Quinn. Gamaliel (talk) 16:24, 23 September 2014 (UTC) It has not escalated as the whole issue is that you are too involved and I have provided my evidence already. I could point out that you only seem to challenge and threaten people on one side, while people on the other side are showered with praise for their work on the article.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 16:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC) Again, flatly untrue. My talk page is evidence of bitching at me from both sides, while a single barnstar posted on the talk page of a single editor is your sole piece of evidence for my "showering" of praise for one side. Gamaliel (talk) 17:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC) Gamaliel has contended that he is not involved, but is being impartial. The evidence suggests otherwise. Gamaliel feuding with PseudoSomething over sources: [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44]. Mind you, Pseudo appears to be the third editor Gamaliel was suggesting should be topic-banned. The feuding also concerned Breitbart, which is one of the few major news outlets providing a sympathetic perspective on GamerGate. Gamaliel made some pretty hostile commentary about the outlet, which is not surprising given Gamaliel's admitted Democratic leanings as contrasted with Breitbart's more Republican leanings. Gamaliel's dismissive comments regarding allegations of corruption in gaming journalism as a focus of GamerGate has already been mentioned, but it bears repeating because of the entire context: [45] [46] [47] [48]. You see one of the editors directly challenged Gamaliel's neutrality and an IP editor that challenged his sources by pointing out inaccuracies in the reporting or opinionated dismissal of legitimate concerns regarding conflicts of interest was reverted for "attacking journalists" the IP supposedly disliked. One thing Gamaliel states above is that his talk page shows evidence of both sides criticizing him, but the only evidence I can find of that is this exchange: [49]. Which shows exactly one editor generally seen as unfavorable towards GamerGate and one who was favorable to GamerGate complaining about Gamaliel's actions. However, the complaint concerns numerous edits by Gamaliel removing references to the "Five Guys Burgers and Fries" term that was being used to refer to the allegations about Quinn when there were efforts to suppress discussion of the controversy on various online forums. Gamaliel reverted multiple editors using this term by absurdly calling it a "slur" and a "BLP violation": [50] [51] [52] [53] [54]. Far from being bombarded with hate from both sides, he gets praise and affection from the anti-GamerGate side for banning their opponents: [55] [56] [57]. His actions as both an editor commenting on the talk page and as an administrator using his tools or position have exclusively favored anti-GamerGate positions. That he also offers encouragement and praise to the most active editor in slanting the GamerGate article towards a hostile POV on the subject is just further evidence of his favoritism and his partisan adminning.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC) That's because it is a slur. It's a third-grade-level slut-shaming slur which has no place in a serious encyclopedia and Gamaliel should be applauded for his persistence in ensuring its removal. We have no obligation to repeat and amplify anonymous forum gossip and doggerel. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:24, 24 September 2014 (UTC) You are not the most objective commentator on that matter, which is kind of the point. Please see these mentions in reliable sources: [58] [59]. It isn't slut-shaming or a slur. More of a joking way to discuss something when discussion was not being allowed. The term is a legitimate point of discussion on the talk page and removing it from discussions is not appropriate nor supported by BLP.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:59, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose topic-ban. There is considerable evidence that NPOV of the article is seriously lacking and at least he should contribute on the talk page. There are also serious BLP violations in the article about the portrayal of so-called "gamers" that hasn't generated any redactions. Titanium Dragon's contributions are not disruptive. --DHeyward (talk) 00:14, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Topic banned user continuing to edit at Gamergate controversy

User:Titanium Dragon was topic banned by User:Gamaliel two days ago, but he has again started editing the article and Talk page, apparently because "it is going to be appealed". Can something be done about this? Woodroar (talk) 02:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I had assumed that bans were hard-coded. I had spoken to Gamaliel on his talk page about it, and noticed that I still had the ability to edit the article, and had assumed he changed his mind. Apparently I was in error, and such bans simply are not hard coded. The edits have been reverted. I'm sorry, I have little understanding of how such things work mechanically; I had assumed there was a system in place to bar people from editing such articles, but I suppose I can see why that would be difficult now that I think about it, as category tags only go so far. I shan't do it again. Titanium Dragon (talk) 02:02, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

user:NeilN has explained things a bit better to me. That being said, I have a question: @Tarc: has been topic banned from things having to do with transgender issues, and part of the whole GamerGate mess is the fight that Zoe Quinn had with The Fine Young Capitalists, the former accusing the later of transphobia. Does that mean he shouldn't be working on those articles as well? Titanium Dragon (talk) 02:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Nice deflection attempt there, but no; that's be like a prohibition on editing Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil just because a person in the book/movie is a drag queen. Quinn's critique of the FYC over their transgender rules does not make this a transgender topic, but I'll refrain from commenting further on that small aspect of this (and to my knowledge I have not) just to be 100% in the clear. Tarc (talk) 02:26, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Woodroar was correct to bring this violation to the community's attention, but now that Titanium Dragon has corrected his mistake, which appears to have been made in good faith, I see no reason to block and suggest this section be closed lest it get sidetracked into unrelated issues. Gamaliel (talk) 02:46, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Titanium Dragon has violated their topic ban yet again, immediately after acknowledging they know exactly what the ban entails. Enough's enough.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:04, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

That is from Gamaliel's talk page in discussion of this very ban, because I feel that the ban was made in error because the material in question is found in reliable sources which had been previously noted on that page (several of which are presently or have been used as cites by the article). Surely you can discuss being banned from something with the person who banned you on their talk page? :\ Titanium Dragon (talk) 03:15, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You are allowed to appeal your ban and it does seem that is what you are doing on Gamaliel's talk page. See WP:BANEX for a list of exceptions.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I note that the user in question has once again posted unsupported accusations about living people in the process of appealing their topic ban. I have redacted the claim and strongly suggest that it is counterproductive for you to make unsupported accusations about living people when appealing a topic ban imposed because you made unsupported accusations about living people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:47, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

He was plainly referencing this article in Cinema Blend. It does not explicitly identify Quinn, but she and her associates are the ones they are talking about. This claim of doxxing was apparently made due to Quinn responding to a tweet from her PR rep Maya Kramer that contained the TFYC guy's Facebook account. Although the offending tweet appears to have been nuked you can still find traces of the conversation between Quinn, Kramer, and another individual. This connection to Quinn is made explicit in GameRanx. Suffice to say, TD knew Cinema Blend alluded to the doxxing, but did not remember that they left the identity of the culprit unclear. From what I can tell, this is typically where he runs afoul of BLP. He fills in the blanks with stuff he already knows without realizing the sources do not explicitly state what he is stating. Of course, I don't know what he said in these other instances since the evidence has been shredded by various involved admins.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

So he was misusing and misrepresenting the content of reliable sources to present his personal opinions about living people because he didn't like what was actually found in the reliable sources. Good to know we agree. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I am saying that he filled in the blanks in his head and thought that the sources explicitly said it when he really just knew what they were talking about.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:34, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

...which is precisely what is prohibited by WP:SYNTH — we don't allow people to synthesize from multiple reliable sources a new claim not explicitly found in any one of them. The fact that the only reliable source directly addressing the issue intentionally omitted Zoe Quinn's name is significant. It means the only reliable source directly addressing the issue made an editorial decision not to make an explicit claim about Quinn's involvement. If the source didn't make that claim, it is absolutely prohibited to build a chain of primary sources and use them to make inferences about what the reliable source might or might not have said. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:49, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I am saying any "synth" or "unsourced" statement was inadvertent due to him actually knowing what sources are talking about yet not processing that they did not actually say what they are talking about.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 07:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see it as necessary to worry too much here about alleged topic ban violations on Gamaliel's talk page at the moment, unless they're so egregious that they require immediate attention in which case it should only really happen after the material has been oversighted or at least revdeleted (or alternatively by privately alerting an admin). While of course, any admin could block Titanium Dragon for topic ban violations, when they occur in a stated attempt to appeal the topic ban on the issuing admin's talk page and the issuing admin appears to be actively engaged in the discussion, unless said admin asks for help, it's probably best to let them deal with it, notifying them if there's something you think they may have missed. It looks like Gamaliel has already warned TD to be careful in what they post, in particular to focus on the appeal and not in engaging with other contributors. Nil Einne (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Why was he topic banned? 72.89.93.231 (talk) 03:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Because he kept posting material that violated WP:BLP and had to be expunged from the pages' histories.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Flushed down the memory hole? 72.89.93.231 (talk) 04:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Because Wikipedia is seen as having some authority, you can't use it to slander living people, or make wild accusations about what may have happened in their private lives. You can, for instance, imagine what would happen if somebody wrote an article about you in the style that editors like Tutelary and Titanium Dragon were hoping to write for Zoe Quinn. Many people would take it seriously, even though the whole GamerGate thing looks like a mad conspiracy from the outside. That is why we have these sanctions --5.81.54.129 (talk) 09:36, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

But the article already appears to slander living persons like Adam Baldwin. I don't see how discussing which sources belong in an article, on a talk page, violates BLP. You are being WP:UNCIVIL by implying Tutelary or Titianium Dragon are some kind of bully or egregious BLP violators, when let's remember they were both doxxed and the Wikipedia community is voting to *ban them sitewide* as a response.

Seriously. Your reaction to editors getting doxxed is "lets ban the victims!"? Hello? Earth to Wikipedia? 72.89.93.231 (talk) 09:56, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Titanium Dragon was doxxed long before the GamerGate shit happened. Don't conflate the two events. And Adam Baldwin is mentioned once on the article as having made it a hashtag and then not mentioned, again.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Titanium Dragon was doxxed on 9.07 as a reaction to the "GamerGate shit". Whoever did it was trying to intimidate him and other editors from contributing to the article. And it is downright horrifying to see the perpetrators enabled and encouraged like this. 72.89.93.231 (talk) 19:19, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I was actually not aware that the doxxing occurred because of his participation in the GG pages.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It is somewhat worrying to see Gamaliel topic banning someone when they are making reverts like this one with an edit summary of "Anyone trying to get this article neutral will get their edits reverted: BLP" where the mention of the [redacted] hash tag is treated as a BLP violation, and very WP:BITEY reverts like this one where the newbies only error was not to post at the bottom of the talk page. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC).

Just to correct you here, the "anyone trying to get this article neutral" bit was the section heading, not a comment from Gamaliel. He did make other comments that I pointed out in the collapsed section above that you can examine. I agree that he is too involved in the subject to take administrative action.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

You're damn right I'm treating it as a BLP violation, because it's a slur directed at the subject of the article and Wikipedia talk pages are not forums for such slurs. Gamaliel (talk) 00:34, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

How is that a slur. A slur is a bad word. Acknowledging the presence of a hashtag or phrase on a TALK PAGE isn't a freaking BLP violation. How can you discuss an article if you are threatening to ban people for DISCUSSING what to put in the article? If it's a slur why are people like Adam Baldwin being associated with a movement the wiki article describes as anti-feminist and deeply misogynistic? 72.89.93.231 (talk) 19:15, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not a slur. In the past week, it's become plain to see that Gamaliel, Rylong, and NorthBySouth are White Knights for Zoe Quinn -- who shouldn't even have a Wikipedia page to begin with, being that she's as notable as belly button lint. At best, she deserves an inclusion in the GameGate Scandal page and nothing more. Anyhow, luckily for me, my editors from the media outlet I work for have given me the go ahead and write an expose on the whole mess. Users from Wikipedia who decided to make this a non-neutral story will be on blast and my guys will stand behind me after I do it. That's only part of it. I am appalled with this whole situation. I don't believe there's a media blackout so much as the media is not giving everyone the whole picture in this regard. I'm even more horrified with the McCarthy-esque tactics displayed by Wikipedia. TitaniumDragon didn't deserve to be banned just because Gamaliel, Ryulong, and NorthBySouth are going against Wiki policy to keep the full story from seeing the light of day. It's disgusting. I watched a Wikipedia editor (who actually WROTE a policy one of these clowns were violating) get browbeaten over his knowledge. The three guys in question are bullies and nothing more. I encourage anyone and everyone who fights for the truth to keep fighting over this article so that it's finally neutral. TabascoMan77 (talk) 08:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

If you contact me via email with your press credentials, you can interview me for your expose. As a professional journalist, you are of course aware that no reputable publication would run such an expose without contacting participants from all sides of the issue who are willing to be interviewed. Gamaliel (talk) 15:40, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure the Daily DDT at FanSided is a particularly professional or reputable publication. 146.185.140.187 (talk) 17:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't work for The Daily DDT at FanSided. Oh, and I'm not asking for an interview, Gamaliel. I don't need it because it'll just be more pro-Zoe spew. Your actions on this board...they kinda speak for themselves. A good "expose" doesn't need your personal words. They just report and nail their target to the wall based on what you've already done. Big smiles! TabascoMan77 (talk) 02:24, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I am impressed at the level of journalistic integrity on display in your comment. Gamaliel (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Tabascoman77, are you one of the people who were attempting to bother me all evening on Twitter? Also, you should recognize that Titanium Dragon was not banned because he was attempting to push a pro-GG agenda. He was banned because he kept making statements concerning Zoe Quinn that violated WP:BLP which is mentioned throughout this fucking thread.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

No. And, I've heard the WP:BLP excuse. The thing that TD already explained was being misused because you guys don't understand what it is. I have a Twitter and if I wanted to bug you there, you'd know because my username would make it fairly obvious. TabascoMan77 (talk) 18:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Indef Block for USER:Tabascoman77

I believe the words cited directly above provide reason to issue an indefinite block, as it directly is attempting to create a chilling effect within the articles in question as well as here in this ANI. User will be notified immediately after this is posted. Tivanir2 (talk) 06:14, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

User Notified. Tivanir2 (talk) 06:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Forgot to mention the user also advocates disruption to make a point at the articles in question. Also against policy. Tivanir2 (talk) 06:19, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Indef block on what basis? This is the second example I see on this page of some editors trying to make Wikipedia into a battleground with other websites. You don't ban editors for criticizing the Wikipedia community. Kelly ^hi! 09:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Seconded. On what grounds? That I said I was going to write an article (on another site not even RELATED to Wikipedia) about the Zoe Quinn White-Knighting and blockade of the McCarthy-esque behavior and blackout of neutral information found on Wikipedia? ZOMG YOU JUST PROVED MY ENTIRE POINT. Thanks for that. This is why I've stopped using Wikipedia. You guys have gotten so weird. It's like you think you've got your own little government and can hit people with some sort of stick from afar. REALITY CHECK: I haven't done anything to warrant a "block". You have no power. If you block me, I will appeal it and your goofy asses will STILL wind up in the expose article, detailing this sort of bullying behavior. TabascoMan77 (talk) 10:02, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

On what grounds? Simple, as I said above. User is attempting to create a chilling effect[[60]] through threatening an expose after denying actual journalism (aka actually interviewing both sources), further "encourage anyone and everyone who fights for the truth to keep fighting over this article so that it's finally neutral" is calling for individuals to disrupt the articles to make a point. Not to mention his fun filled personal attacks at my user page[61] and general battle ground mentality. Also just because you don't want me on your talk page, that doesn't include mandatory notifications such as discussions at ANI. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Really? Encouraging everyone to write a neutral article is "disruptive"? You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means... TabascoMan77 (talk) 18:20, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Editing repeatedly against policy and concensus is disruptive and tenditious behavior. Further It has been repeatedly shown that WP:IDONTHEARTHAT does not work as an appropriate venue for attempting to protest actions. Maybe you should read policies, it might make it less embarrassing for you. Tivanir2 (talk) 19:37, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. There's a difference between criticism and threats designed to create a chilling effect. Any offsite comments designed to create a chilling effect that also contain personal information about Wikipedia editors fall under the policy WP:OUTING. Gamaliel (talk) 16:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Not sure I'd support an indef block quite yet, but Tabascoman77 should probably be aware that threats to "out" editors count as personal attacks. --Richard Yin (talk) 14:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I guess you could run an expose based on usernames alone, but I'm honestly not sure that would have much of an effect. --Richard Yin (talk) 14:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

If anything he should be blocked for attempting to turn Wikipedia into a battleground and becoming a disruptive single purpose account to focus on the GamerGate garbage.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:53, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

So let's see: this thread has gone from being about an editor who may have been pretending to be female to being about an editor who is pretending to be an investigative journalist. It's getting tiresome, and far past the point where there is actually a dispute to be resolved. I propose starting an office pool on how long it will take until this ANI thread is closed. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I truly don't care if he is a journalist or not. People shouldn't be attempting chilling affects, trying to disrupt wikipedia to make a point, make personal attacks, attempt to out, adopt a battle ground mental state, or fight for the "truth". The user has managed to show they are not here to improve the encyclopedia. Tivanir2 (talk) 18:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh noes. So scared. Seriously. There may be tears. Keep editing the article until it's neutral, folks. That's what this place was supposed to be about. It's obviously not. The rules have been bent by these guys to no end. TabascoMan77 (talk) 18:20, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Way to reinforce exactly what I am providing diffs for. You hit rock bottom and you are starting serious excavation. WP:ROPE doesn't even need to be considered at this point, that is apparent. Tivanir2 (talk) 19:40, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support a block as clearly not here to collaborate. His bluster above that he hasn't done anything to warrant a block and will appeal it (to whom? (to the courts? is that a threat?)), combined by saying that he has stopped using Wikipedia (if so, why is he blustering?) is one of the stranger responses to a block proposal that I have seen. I would support either an indef as not here to contribute or a preventive block to keep him from building the case for a site ban. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Two editors collaborating on biased degrading of Wikipedia articles

I'll keep it as short as possible. Two editors, User:Pincrete and User:Bobrayner are harassing Boris Malagurski-related articles, mostly the article about his film The Weight of Chains. Even though these articles are very well sourced (not many articles on Wikipedia have so many references per sentence), they've expressed their dislike and anti-Malagurski bias very directly several times, and are now ganging up to discourage those who actually want to help contribute to Wikipedia in regards to articles on the matter. For standing up for neutrality, I've been accused of being Boris Malagurski, his friend and on his payroll, accused that I just want to praise him and his work with no criticism, while my main objection is that negative criticism should be well sourced, and that well sourced facts and positive critique shouldn't be removed. In essence, I would like neutrality.

However, whenever I list reputable sources that support any claim, they always jump to say "No consensus!", and thus any serious editing can't be done. Most recently, after I added information and quotes from a review from VICE (magazine), Bobrayner quickly reverted it [62], again citing "clearly no consensus to add this" (not a word dropped on the talk page from him). When I even expanded a review to include more negative criticism of the film, but argued that blog posts can't be considered as reliable sources for criticism, again the screams of "no consensus" to remove the blogger's rants. Pincrete keeps canvassing ([63]) and Bobrayner gladly jumps in whenever needed. This is starting to get very annoying. I've lost my nerve once and engaged in an edit war, I don't want to get into that kind of communication anymore, I would like to see what is it that has to happen so that I can peacefully edit and collaborate with those who didn't come to Malagurski-related articles with an agenda, but with an honest wish to contribute in the spirit of Wikipedia. Editing here was fun when I started, but if I have to argue with people whenever I add reliably sourced content that fulfill Wikipedia criteria, I'm out. If pushing POV, manipulating, canvassing and getting away with it just because some articles are less popular than others is the essence of Wikipedia, please let me know so that I can make my decision on whether to stay. Thanks in advance, --UrbanVillager (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Question from Pincrete, may I ask the time-frame in which this is likely to be heard? I ask as there a very large number of diffs to assemble to answer this properly. Pincrete (talk) 00:25, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no guarantee that anyone will respond. However, if you keep it brief, you'll have a much better chance. Few people will read an excessively long post that details every minor transgression made by an editor. I would suggest you try to keep it to the length of UrbanVillager's post (or shorter). I skimmed over the article's talk page (and a few others), and I'd suggest that you two could probably benefit from content-related dispute resolution, such as the dispute resolution noticeboard, a third opinion, an RFC, or asking WikiProject Film for unbiased input. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's quite a long complaint about a small part of the problem. Let me try to condense the broader story, for the good folk of WP:ANI.

• UrbanVillager is a single-purpose account whose only work is to promote Malagurski, an obscure filmmaker. Tellingly, UrbanVillager writes promotional content about Malagurski's work before information is actually released to the public. Articles on these films have, historically, contained only positive content - and impressive lists of awards (some of which are impossible to reconcile with real-world evidence), and UrbanVillager will automatically revert anyone who tries to fix it. Just look at the history of The Weight of Chains]. Normally I wouldn't bother much with mere spam, but Malagurski's films make some radical claims about recent Balkan history, and UrbanVillager has tweaked content to suit those claims.
• The combination of promotional editing, misuse of sources, and radical views on recent Balkan history, can lead to angry comments by various people, although I've tried to remain civil. In a previous attempt at dispute resolution, UrbanVillager insisted that several editors - the folk he has diligently reverted over the years - are all conspiring to malign Malagurski. It's difficult to reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
• The latest problem is about some reviews of The Weight of Chains. UrbanVillager has spent years adding positive wording and removing negative wording and reverting anyone who disagrees; that's his job. In the last few days, two different uninvolved people (Psychonaut (talk · contribs) and EdJohnston (talk · contribs)) had warned UrbanVillager for editwarring and for "making unilateral changes"; UrbanVillager did it again; I made a single revert, because there was clearly no consensus for UrbanVillager's wording; so UrbanVillager tried asking EdJohnston for support, and when EdJohnston disagreed, UrbanVillager started this thread instead.

bobrayner (talk) 08:04, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Response from Pincrete Bobrayner has expressed very succinctly the broader issues, so I will focus on recent events and UrbanVillager's user behaviour, which is, frequently abusive, wilfully perverse, and shows no meaningful engagement with the guidelines or values of Wikipedia (I can provide MANY examples of personal abuse, several of racist abuse many of wilfully perverse behaviour or wilful mis-quoting, but do not do so here for reasons of brevity). I believe this ANI is little more than a smokescreen by UrbanVillager, to hide his own behaviour and to retain WP:Ownership of these pages.

Firstly, I ask that the recent talk page be read (to the extent that you can endure it), collapsed section here:-[64]. This is talk over less than 2 days (9th-11th Sep) about the 'Criticism' section, of the article. The background is that only 4 days before, both UrbanVillager and myself had been warned against making ANY non-consensus changes to this section of the article (or to one disputed word). On the morning of 11th September, I posted a clear statement that UV's proposed changes did NOT have my consent, and did not appear to be RSs either, here:-[65] nb para 3 of changes panel, 'Where this discussion has got to … 90 minutes later, he replied here:-[66] nb end of para 1 of changes panel 'So, the review goes in the article.' … some 3 minutes later, he made this edit:-[67] which he claims in his edit reason, is 'as per talk page' . This was not ONE controversial edit, but the complete rewriting of the entire section.

When challenged by EdJohnston, later that day, UrbanVillager made the minimum reverts explicitly demanded by EdJohnston, but retaining ALL of the material, which he had sought to insert that morning, some of which - he had every reason to know - was factually wrong about a reviewer whom he wished to disparage, content which he certainly knew did not have consensus. It was at this point that Bobrayner, made the change he did, though I had already approached EdJohnston, asking permission to do so.

UrbanVillager's opening statement contains two - very telling - 'errors', firstly he links to the VICE magazine Wikipedia entry, not to the actual 'review' which I expressed strong reservations about here:-[68], (which one gets to via the VICE site here:- [69] … click on 'details'). Can somebody correct me if this does not appear to be an ad, which is - at best - quoting from a review. Even if I am wrong, was I unreasonable to ask for more than 12 hours overnight between its first suggestion and agreeing to its insertion? Secondly, (on line 4 para 2, line starting 'rants), he says Pincrete 'keeps canvassing ', and he links to HIS lengthy characterisation of the event on the talk page, not to the 'crime' itself here:-[70], (or fuller picture here:-[71]), as for the word 'keeps', I ask UrbanVillager to supply a single other incidence of me making (what could be construed as) inappropriate contact with ANY editor.

I could say much more, the above is a record of only a few days, and not the two years with which I have been (on & off), involved with this page (and to a lesser extent its satellites), any slice of which reveals behaviour by UrbanVillager, which is - at best WP:Wikilawyering and - at worst, intolerable. I am mindful of the need to be brief, so I finish with a simple request, I ask that - as a minimum - UrbanVillager be banned from all Boris Malagurski pages for a period, which will give him the opportunity to prove that his commitment really is to the integrity of Wikipedia, and not to his 'chosen special subject'.Pincrete (talk) 22:07, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• A 'broader' point not made by Bobrayner, is that UrbanVillager also creates and contributes to 'Malagurski' pages on either 3 or 4 other Wikipedia sites, from memory, these include German, Greek and Serbian Wikipedia … I will supply proofs if wished.Pincrete (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller, I hope you don't mind, I've inserted my 'Statement' before your post below.Pincrete (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I took a look The Weight of Chains 2 (now at AfD) and noted it said that production was continuing into 2013. Turns out that was copyvio from [72] - a page archived 3 days before the article was created with the copyvio. Which led me to look at the creator's talk page - User talk:Kepkke which has number of copyvio warnings on it - editor also never seems to communicate, let alone deal with copyvio warnings. No comment at the moment on UrbanVillager. Dougweller (talk) 15:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked Kepkke - too much copyvio. Left him/her an explanation of what to do to get unblocked. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller, what you have spotted is only the 'tip of the iceberg' of copy vio. Almost the entire synopsis of Weight of Chains, is a copy/paste of various versions of the film's website, or press pack, any meaningful attempt to change it has been obstructed for over two years. We have been 'allowed' to correct the more grotesque errors of grammar or meaning (factions, not fractions, critique when criticim is intended, etc.). Little more.Pincrete (talk) 21:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Apart from the copyvio, I have long been concerned about the waves of sockpuppets and meatpuppets editing in this area. For instance, Bormalagurski = TheWriterOfArticles = WikiMB = KOCOBO = Bože pravde. UrbanVillager and Cinéma C both share the same hallmarks of sockpuppets - first edits are made very quickly, first turning their userpage into a bluelink, second turning their talkpage into a bluelink, and a minute later diving into a controversial article to revert somebody. Personally, I'm confident that Bolonium is meatpuppet rather than sockpuppet (although on ja.wiki Bolonium was blocked as a sock of Staka, who is in turn blocked on Commons). Joy set out this sequence of socks:

• Bormalagurski - September 2005 - September 2006
• Bože pravde - September 2006 - March 2009
• Cinéma C - March 2009 - September 2010
• UrbanVillager - September 2010 - today.

But regardless of that ancient history (checkuser would be stale), UrbanVillager's 4 years of promoting Boris Malagurski is a problem in its own right, when it involves article ownership, misuse of sources, edit warring, and so on. bobrayner (talk) 02:06, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that. If UrbanVillager would just chill out a bit, I don't think it would be such a problem. On the talk page, I saw Pincrete offer to compromise, and UrbanVillager flatly rejected it. I'd say, try an RFC to develop a stronger consensus on the talk page. In the event that someone disregards consensus, come back here and request a topic ban for the offending party. So far, it looks to me that it won't be Pincrete that we see brought here next time. As far as canvassing goes, I'd say that it's best to post an unbiased message on a relevant WikiProject, such as WT:FILM; this avoids the impression of canvassing. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 10:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

BobRayner's FINAL sentence above is the key one for me, 'regardless of ancient history … UrbanVillager's 4 years of promoting Boris Malagurski is a problem in its own right, when it involves article ownership, misuse of sources, edit warring, and so on' . While I understand Bob's frustrations, any evidence of 'puppetry' or COI, is almost inevitably going to be circumstantial (I have no opinion on the matter). However, evidence of abuse of guidelines, personal abuse, and abuse of procedure (of which this ANI case is just an example), is NOT circumstantial. Only yesterday - during a time that UrbanVillager is presenting himself here as the 'victim' - the following interchange took place :-[73]. … note, much of the content of The Weight of Chains 2, was deleted 13th Sept for copy vio, as were several paragraphs from The Weight of Chains main article, for the same reason,- ie almost 4 years after The Weight of Chains received its first copy vio warning here:-[74] Pincrete (talk) 11:48, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• I remain utterly unconvinced that the account UrbanVillager is anything other than an egregious WP:SOCK/WP:MEAT violation, per evidence collected in 2012, but discarded on a number of technicalities. Even if others aren't convinced about all that WP:DUCK material, it still doesn't take a lot of effort to conclude that this account by itself is a single-purpose account that is not here to build an encyclopedia, but instead to engage in a shameless promotion of Boris Malagurski, which in turn is a slippery slope into advocacy, propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, and political or ideological struggle. The entire thing has been a humongous waste of time, and this iteration is no different. But thank you for reminding me that something needs to be done - I propose a topic ban for UrbanVillager on the subject of Boris Malagurski, broadly construed. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:00, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

The 'comedy' continues … UrbanVillager, who says 'Pincrete keeps canvassing' , had the following interchange yesterday :-[75] (from, where UrbanVillager 'pings' Diannaa, 'Diannaa, would this be OK'). This is such an inept and overt action, by UrbanVillager's standards, that I am puzzled as to his motives. Pincrete (talk) 09:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC) … … nb minor correction to Diannaa, Diannaa says on the prev. diff that it was Pincrete who removed the 'VICE review', it was actually Bobrayner. added by Pincrete Pincrete (talk) 10:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Postdating this so it doesn't get archived into oblivion. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

And, speaking of a waste of time - I just noticed Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20140915. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

The user Kepkke was blocked a few days ago for copyright violations. This user was previously active in the Balkan topic areas, but I don't recall perceiving him as particularly problematic. Oh well. Anyway, oddly enough, I received an e-mail from an anonymous user today (whom I've never heard from before) telling me that they think that new user RichardWilson78 is Kepkke. The dates seem to roughly match, yet the pattern of editing isn't identical - the new user seems much less timid. It could be an escalation of a grudge because of the block, or it could be an arbitrary accusation, but given the edit warring the new user has been involved in, I'm erring on the side of full disclosure and mentioning it here. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:21, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Looking at two recent edits, Bobrayner deleted [76] large areas of text with no justification, giving just the pov assertion "not a reliable source". And here is Somedifferentstuff doing exactly the same, with the same lack of justification [77]. These editors should not have remove referenced content in this way. Their talk page "justifications" are equally weak. There is no need for "consensus" before inserting referenced content. The Vice Raindance Film Festival review and, even more so, the Gregory Elich review that were deleted by Bobrayner, to me seem acceptable as sources. I do not see any properly presented discussion in the talk page about why they should be excluded, all I see is are attempts at productive discussion being hammered by some editors, along with repeated (since almost day one of the article) allegations of sockpuppetry or vested interests, but with never any attempt to take these allegations further (they seem to be there just to disrupt and to close down any discussion). The article's current wording also has a lots of weasel in it, it even has that classic, the unspecified "some critics". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, the Elich, which you say is an acceptable source for inclusion in the 'Reviews' section of a film article, 1) is an interview between somebody IN the film and the director, it does not pretend to be a review of the film … … 2) the interview is already used as a reference in the article (inserted by me). So yes, nobody disputes it as a source for what the director and one of the 'cast' say about the film, they simply don't consider it an independent RS review.

The VICE is currently at RS noticeboard, at the time of writing NO ONE there has come to the conclusion that it is a review, they have all said it is an advert, and it isn't in VICE magazine anyway, it is simply on their website and has no name creditted to it, merely 'VICE STAFF".

There have been NO allegations from me EVER of any editor being a sock - HOWEVER at least twice today UrbanVillager left posts on WoC talk about ME being a sock - bizarrely, I am supposed to be a sock of an editor who has never been banned and who UrbanVillager acknowledges I spent a long time interracting with two years ago when I first started editing (but as bobrayner says earlier, you can't reason someone out of a belief they never reasoned themselves into).

There IS a need for consensus BEFORE inserting material, referenced or not, when the editor in question has been specifically warned the week before against making changes TO THAT SECTION without consensus. The onus for 'properly presented discussion' surely rests firstly with those who wish to insert material, but it is difficult to see what 'properly presented discussion' there COULD be for justifying an interview between two participants in the film as an independent film review.

The 'weasel words' you refer to were actually inserted by UrbanVillager in November last year. I was not editing on WoC at all at the time (for over a year). Of the other 3 involved editors who wrote that section, one has since retired and two have been permanently banned for abuse of multiple accounts.

I don't think we are supposed to turn this ANI into a battlefield, however, I felt obliged to correct your errors. Pincrete (talk) 22:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that "no consensus" cannot be used to exclude valid content, and issuing "warnings" that anything new in a section first needs consensus is not a position that is sustainable. The issue should be whether the source is an acceptable one, but that sort of discussion seems absent - in the talk page there is too much entrenched absolutism (for example, your own words: "The discussion is over because I say there's nothing more usefull to say"). Saying here that "it is not a film review" is irrelevant: the article section is about critical responses, not film reviews; and the source, Monthly Review, while coming at issues from a predetermined standpoint, is a longstanding publications of some stature. The onus is also on those wanting material removed to justify that removal - just stating "no consensus" in an edit summary is not justification. I didn't say that you had made accusations of sockpuppety, but that such allegations have been thrown around the article's talk page since almost day one. Please accept my apologies if my wording inadvertently implied that you had made such accusations. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

However, Pincrete, this looks (and rhymes) rather like someone implying sockpuppetry: [78] Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, I believe your first involvement with the 'Weight of Chains' page was yesterday, also (I think) we have never 'met' before. This ANI is looking at allegations (made against bobrayner and myself), of long term behaviour. For these reasons, I hope you will understand why I think it would only 'muddy the waters' for me to respond to you here. I'm sure the ANI will take note of your observations, and if they think them relevant, ask me to comment on them directly. Pincrete (talk) 12:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I've made one edit to the article (adding a fact tag against that "some critics" wording I mentioned earlier), and until yesterday I had never heard of this film. I noticed this thread on this noticeboard and decided to have a look. And after looking I feel that your interactions on that article have been very heavy, you and other editors have been really slamming down on the attempts by another editor to add content. I don't actually know whether that content is any good - but I do feel the methods you have been using effectively close-down any chance of constructive discussion, which is not the way things should be, and which is also guaranteed to annoy and antagonize UrbanVillager and make his responses equally unconstructive. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, I am going to ASK you to strike-thru or delete your posts here. You also have MY permission to, at the same time strike-thru or delete my replies, including this one. If you wish (and if I have time), I will communicate through your or my talk page, however, at the moment (probably unintentionally), the effect you are having is probably not constuctive. I will not respond to ANY further posts HERE, not out of discourtesy, but because this is not the place. Thankyou. Pincrete (talk) 14:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Why would I strike through my posts (or any part of them, given that even my accidental implication that you might have made suggestions of sockpuppetry turned out to be correct)? My words addressed the issues raised by the complainant. I don't at all like the title of his complaint, but I think that the core of his complaint - that editors have been "ganging up" to exclude content, and have been using invalid methods to do it - has some substance to it. I am basing much of my opinion on my belief that what I wrote earlier is correct: that just repeatedly saying "no consensus" cannot be used to exclude otherwise valid content, and that issuing "warnings" that adding anything new into a section first needs consensus is not a position that is sustainable. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:09, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield said "Bobrayner deleted large areas of text with no justification, giving just the pov assertion "not a reliable source".". I should point out that this content & source was rejected at WP:RSN. Few people would consider that "pov"; with the exception of UrbanVillager, for whom any edit is vandalism by definition if it tones down his promotion of Malagurski. Some examples: [79] [80] [81] [82] [83] [84] [85] [86] [87] [88] [89] [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99]
For instance, if somebody says that ""Kosovo: Can You Imagine?"'s prestigious "Silver Palm" award - something he has repeatedly emphasised - was actually one of 76 Silver Palms awarded in the student films category of a hitherto unknown filmfest, that's definitely vandalism, as far as UrbanVillager is concerned. If somebody replaced "Official selection for the "International Festival of New Latin American Cinema"" with "One of thirteen Serbian films selected for the "International Festival of New Latin American Cinema"", you'd better believe that's vandalism too, just as much as the words "film student" are vandalism if they appear anywhere near Malagurski's name. UrbanVillager is always reverting "vandalism". Even airbrushed resume on the website that Malagurski's mommy set up for him had words like "intern" and "telemarketing", but our articles - several of our articles - present him solely as a master filmmaker. At some point in the future, the community will be able to fix these widespread breaches of WP:V and WP:NPOV; but that can only happen after UrbanVillager (and socks) stop reverting, or the ability to revert is taken away from them. bobrayner (talk) 19:19, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The above comments by Bobrayner should further convince us of UrbanVillager's complaint. Firstly, those large areas of text Bobrayner refers to were deleted within hours of Pincrete initiating the RS noticeboard discussion [100] over one source. No waiting-time was given for the issue to be discussed. Secondly, there has been no rejection of the Monthly Review source because no RS discussion about it has been initiated. Thirdly, of the five editors who have commented to date on the RS discussion for the Vice source, three of them are Bobrayner, Pincrete, and Somedifferentstuff - editors who already wanted to remove the material from the article. The point of bringing things to the RS noticeboard is to get NEW opinions from uninvolved editors, so Bobrayner has no justification in claiming above that the source has been "rejected". It seems to me to be more evidence that UrbanVillager's allegation of editors "ganging up" to exclude content is justified. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:43, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

When several editors disagree with UrbanVillager's edits - not just the editors you've listed here, but also folk like Joy, Potočnik, Opbeith, Peacemaker67 &c - conspiracy is not the most likely explanation, and constant reverting is not the best solution. bobrayner (talk) 08:16, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Re: Bobrayner's 'conspiracy' post immediately above. At the time I was first accused of being a co-conspirator, I had not even read, edited or 'talked on' 3 of the 4 pages I was alleged to be conspiring to distort. For UrbanVillager to make such a mistake once, might be forgivable, to repeat it on several ANI's therafter (without notifying me) seems somewhat careless at the least, to never attempt to apologise for or withdraw the accusation is … … … well, what we have all (unfortunately) come to expect from him. Here:-[101]. Pincrete (talk) 16:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Corrections to Bobrayner … the film he mentions, was one of 14 winners in the Student's films category, one of 76 overall, and after several very long, hard battles by myself and other editors, the text NOW does say 'one of several winners in Student films category', UrbanVillager has never agreed to this change, but has not - so far - reverted it. … … however other 'festivals', do still seem to be of very questionable note-worthiness, and questionably referenced. These include Ann Arbor Docufest,(until recently described as 'Official Selection, 2011 - for "The Weight of Chains" at the Ann Arbor Docu Fest' [102] which when I eventually tracked down the 'long dead ref.', turns out to be a free monday evening showing at the "Cafe Ambrosia':-Ann Arbor Docu Fest: The Weight of Chains at Cafe Ambrosia, with little evidence that this was meaningfully, a film festival. Pincrete (talk) 17:12, 20 September 2014 (UTC) … … further minor correction, it was PRODUCER, not Peacemaker who was accused of 'conspiracy' alongside myself and the others Bobrayner mentions. added by : Pincrete (talk) 11:18, 21 September 2014 (UTC) … … … Also bobrayner, I believe that NO editor has ever wanted to insert: "One of thirteen Serbian films selected for the "International Festival of New Latin American Cinema"", though there ARE two issues connected with this, one is the 'peacocky' use of 'Official selection' (when this is not a phrase used by the festival), the second is whether we are ALLOWED to mention that it is in 'Serbian/Balkan categories that the film has been chiefly shown.

Bob, you were clearly angry when you answered Tiptoethrutheminefield, and didn't choose your examples well. HOWEVER, I wholly agree with your main point, recent examples of what UrbanVillager has characterised as 'vandalism' or 'not constructive edits', include 1) placing dead link tags on links that had been known to be dead for at least two years, tags which have 'mysteriously disappeared' previously 2) removing a statement about a LP, which had been on the page UN-referenced for two years, because I added a 'ref' to it, and 3) restoring 'culture critic', when I had replaced it with 'cultural critic'. above text added to by Pincrete. Pincrete (talk) 10:08, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Minor correction to Tiptoethrutheminefield I've left no agree/disagree 'comment' on the RS noticeboard, I HAVE left a response to your post, (which you might think is the same). I have also invited EVERY editor (whether they seemed to agree with me or not) to leave a post there. Even if you ignore bobrayner and myself, can you not see that the other 3 are experienced, independent editors making rational arguments, based on WP policy and guidelines? … … the first two (time-wise) of these were WHOLLY independent, then BR, then SDS (very recently involved with this page), then yourself, then my comment … if that isn't us trying to get 'outside opinion' in a neutral way, I don't know what is. Pincrete (talk) 18:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, on a simple factual matter, somewhere between 70 and 90 percent of the text on WoC on the day this complaint was filed, had been inserted by UrbanVillager. The other 8-10 involved editors in the last two years, have managed to slightly amend the rest, (all of it done neutrally, as far as possible). Of that 70-90 percent, a VERY large proportion, is copy-pasted from publicity material created by the film maker, and has NEVER had the agreement of the majority of current or past editors. I myself attempted recently to initiate discussion of the present synopsis, here:-[103], this itself is returning to discussions of two years ago, pointing out that the present synopsis is little more than a 'mirror' of the film maker's website and therefore not only copyvio, but inadequate.

I didn't sign up here as an editor to damage the reputation of public figures or their work, but neither did I sign up to assist them (or their fans) in the creation of vanity pages. Pincrete (talk) 09:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Comedy turns to farce, just to note, that while this 'case' sits on the ANI, apparently unnoticed, UrbanVillager has continued to attempt to edit the article according to his own tastes, in flagrant violation of just about every known value and guideline and without any attempt at consensus, demanding that OTHER editors should 'dot every I', while simultaneously demanding his own right to edit wholly according to his own wishes, and in clear bad faith. Luckily a newly arrived editor has prevented this from happening excessively. I will post relevant diffs when I have time. Pincrete (talk) 23:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)(UTC)

Key issues in this ANI

This section was originally formatted by Pincrete as a series of sub-sections. Reformatted and collapsed the following day under advise from Ricky81682.

List collapsed by Pincrete

I repeat my own opening statement, that it is my belief that this ANI is little more than a smokescreen by UrbanVillager, to hide his own behaviour and 'ownership' of all pages connected to the film maker Boris Malagurski. Rarely, I suspect, have two 'accused' (Bobrayner and Pincrete), been more anxious that the case against them be heard. Collaborative harasment of articles … … Accusation made by UrbanVillager against Pincrete and Bobrayner. Accusation includes persistent biased editing, denying use of legitimate reliable sources and the use of 'bloggers rants' as sources. Repeated Canvassing … … Accusation made by UrbanVillager against Pincrete. Use of single purpose account for promotional purposes … … Accusation made by Bobrayner against UrbanVillager. (supported by Joy) Persistent personal abuse and occasional racist abuse … … Accusation made by Pincrete against UrbanVillager. Wilfully perverse behaviour and misrepresentation of other editors … … Accusation made by Pincrete against UrbanVillager. Disregard for editorial consensus and misuse of procedure, contempt for admin. decisions … … Accusation made by Pincrete against UrbanVillager. Disregard for copyvio and repeated use of 'outlawed' sources … … Accusation made against UrbanVillager. (supported by Pincrete, Bobrayner) Article ownership, misuse of sources, edit warring, bad faith … … Accusation made by Bobrayner against UrbanVillager. (supported by Pincrete) Possible sockpuppetry and/or COI … … Accusation made against UrbanVillager by Joy. (supported by Bobrayner) Counter allegations of sockpuppetry and canvassing … … Accusations of sockpuppetry have been made by UrbanVillager against Pincrete on Weight of Chains talk page since the start of this ANI, ditto 'canvassing' which Pincrete has several times asked UrbanVillager to withdraw or substantiate at this ANI. Pincrete (talk) 23:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

NOTE the discussion which follows between Tiptoethrutheminefield and Pincrete concerns the previously formatted sub-sections (ie the content of the collapsed section) Pincrete (talk) 23:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

NOTE ALSO that it is just Pincrete's opinion that the above are the "key issues" in this ANI. Other opinions may differ. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Above 'Key issues' sub-section

Note to readers - all of the above sections, with the numerous sub-headings, were created by Pincrete. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, I had already explained WHY I added the sub-headings in the para. immediately prior to them. My reason was that this ANI showed every sign of being ignored, I did my best to frame the sub-headings in a neutral fashion and to present the issues/accusations in chronological order in which they were made. Pincrete (talk) 19:09, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Because of the formatting and lack of signature it appeared as if Ricky81682 had made the post. Your text does not read like neutral to me: making a score or more unsupported serious allegations against an editor is not a good thing to do, even if you present them in the form of subheadings. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Sincere apologies to all if the formatting of the headings led to a mis-attribution. My supposed accusations are dealt with below Pincrete (talk) 20:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ricky81682, I am happy to remove the sub-headings, (or for you to do so), if their presence is not constructive. You will understand, I hope why I placed them here. Pincrete (talk) 19:09, 27 September 2014 (UTC) This section is partially out of time sequence and was 're-sectioned' by Pincrete for clarityPincrete (talk) 21:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Empty subheadings with no information are not helpful. They add to the length of the contents page with nothing there. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban for UrbanVillager

UrbanVillager hasn't edited since the 17th. Is there something I'm missing? These complaints were ignored it seems. I'd suggest removing the empty subheadings above. So WP:BOOMERANG time: should we consider a topic ban against UrbanVillager? I'd suggest just to Weight of Chains for the time being. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Repeating what I said earlier - support. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Sanctions against Bobrayner and Pincrete

NOTE: This section heading was added by Pincrete retrospectively to seperate topics as per suggestion by Ricky81682. Pincrete (talk) 01:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

What about Bobrayner and Pincrete? We have seen from them numerous examples of bad faith, as well as blatant abuse by them of concepts like consensus and reliable sources. And some out and out lies too. Pincrete claims on 25th September [104] that "UrbanVillager has continued to attempt to edit the article according to his own tastes, in flagrant violation of just about every known value and guideline" - but UrbanVillager has made no edits at all since the 17th September. Then on 26th September we have the astonishing (and unsigned) post by Pincrete [105] claiming that UrbanVillage is a racist, is a sockpuppet, is running a single purpose account, has a "willfully perverse" behavior (whatever that is), has contempt for administrators, violates copyright, misuses procedures, misuses sources ("outlawed" sources? wtf!), and much more. And all without providing even a single supporting diff! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:43, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield please read more carefully, I have NEVER described UrbanVillager as a racist, I have said that he HAS used racist abuse sometimes and I have offered to provide the diffs.

I have NEVER, accused ANY editor of being a sockpuppet. If you look more carefully at the incident you drew attention to above involving RichardWilson78, you will see another editor asked a question on talk as to whether a completely new editor was a sockpuppet. I took the question OFF the talk page and answered 'very possibly' … I defy anyone to look at the actions of RichardWilson78:-[106] and not have the suspicion that puppetry or single purpose editing were POSSIBLE explanations, I hoped that doing this would 'cool down' the speculation. If you do not understand the difference between ACCUSING somebody and answering a direct question by saying 'possibly', perhaps you would tell me what form of words you think I should have used.

I have left NO unsigned posts here. You will see that I tried to be accurate about WHO is making the accusation and who supports it, that is why you will NOT see my name on some accusations because I did not/ have not/ do not make them. Similarly, you will not see other editor's names on accusations that are made by me alone.

What exactly about my summaries is incorrect about the accusations so far made on this ANI ?

My phrase on the 25th September post you link to is 'while this case sits on the ANI', (ie since Sept 11th), therefore the fact that UrbanVillager has not edited since Sept 17th, is at best irrelevant. However, would you like me to take you point by point through the 17th Sept edit :-[107], explaining WHY it violates BLP, RS and clearly did NOT have consensus (which you will see if you go to the 'next' diff.). I would add that UrbanVillager's quoting of your name on his edit reason, is a minor example of 'wilfully perverse' interpretation of WP guidelines.

Tiptoethrutheminefield, you are mis-quoting me in almost every particular in your last post. I have tried throughout to be clear, accurate and to not say anything which I cannot support. I have even corrected bobrayner when he was 'a bit carried away' in his choice of examples. I do not take very kindly to being accused of lying, on the basis of such a 'careless' reading of what I have written. However, let us assume that you are right for a moment about ME, how on earth do you justify including bobrayner in this sea of supposed 'bad faith'? Pincrete (talk) 20:31, 27 September 2014 (UTC) … … ps since you ask what I mean by 'outlawed sources', these include using IMDb as a source and using Youtube (or other copy vio) as sources, which he continues to do despite having been told by admin that they are not acceptable, nor are sources which are clearly 'mirrors'. … … pps which diffs would you like … I was advised to not provide too many? Pincrete (talk) 21:36, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Pincrete, your formatting makes discussion extraordinarily difficult here. Multiparagraph comments and unsigned subheadings are not standard practice for a reason. Tiptoethrutheminefield, when I said "These complaints were ignored it seems" I meant that accusations against Bobrayner and Pincrete seem to be ignored. If you want to propose topic bans for them as well, by all means put in a new subheading (since it is a new topic that is worth separating discussing) and make the proposal. For all parties, large (multi)-paragraph complaints and responses are going to be ignored as few people are going to wander into this mess. Talk:The Weight of Chains is a mess because editors all around want to spend time attacking other editors rather than actual discussion on the matter. Now, if someone can make a concise one or two sentence idea of the problem and a proposal that should help calm things down, we can try to resolve this. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:41, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ricky81682, I will reformat the sub-sections into a single sub-section identifying the issues, also leaving a record of my actions. Pincrete (talk) 22:50, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Pincrete must start to provide diffs for each individual thing he alleges. In the above he accuses UrbanVillager of copyright violation by using Youtube as a source, but gives no diffs as proof of this. If this [108] is what Pincrete is referring to, it was decided there was no copy violation and the Youtube link was a valid source. In his above comment he also states "I have NEVER, accused ANY editor of being a sockpuppet" but in [109] he does, using the not very subtle "Rhymes with clock!" as an edit summary. And if UrbanVillager stopped editing on the 17th, why did Pincrete think it necessary to wait until the 25th to say that UrbanVillager was still editing in "flagrant violation of just about every known value and guideline"? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, it is now very difficult for me to see any signs of good faith or 'even-handedness' in your posts. You've been an editor for less than 6 months, you have no involvement with the relevant pages. You have withdrawn NONE of the accusations you made about me, apologised for NO mis-quoting. You have not responded to Ricky81682's suggestion that if you want to propose sanctions against me you should start a new section with your reasons. I will leave others to judge which of us is acting in good faith. Pincrete (talk) 00:42, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Pincrete, this ANI case is about you, not UrbanVillager, so there is actually no need to start a new section. The interactions between the various editors on The Weight of Chains article and relate articles seem to have descended into ill-disguised personalized aggression, so I suppose it is not surprising that some of your own aggression is starting to also be directed at me. I have not misquoted you, so no apologies are required. My "accusations" (as you call them) have (I think) been reasonable points presented reasonably, and have always been supported by diffs when required, so there is nothing I feel I should withdraw. It is actually difficult to assess UrbanVillager's place in all of it, such are your increasingly wild and repeatedly unsubstantiated allegations against that editor. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, I defer to the judgement of more experienced editors than either of us as to whether there was a need for a new section here. You do not seem able to understand the difference between 'has ocassionally used racist abuse' and 'is a racist', you do not seem to understand the difference between LISTING that editors X and Y have made accusations A and B and 'Pincrete is making these accusations'. You do not seem to understand the difference between answering 'very possibly' (off talk), to a direct question with the explicit purpose of 'damping down' fruitless speculation and ACCUSING someone. You have not answered my question as to what you consider I SHOULD have replied to that question. You have shown no even-handedness in commenting on the EXPLICIT accusations made against me on talk by UV. You have 'set yourself up' as the final arbiter as to what is or is not a RS, what WP guidelines are etc.. For all of these reasons I doubt your good faith or wisdom. Pincrete (talk) 10:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC) ps of course 'rhymes with clock' is not subtle, it was a JOKE … … 'Shhhhhhh we don't speak about these things on talk' . Pincrete (talk) 10:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, you want an example of 'racist abuse', this is not the worst, but it is recent and among the silliest, here:-[110]. (You will note in the edit reason:-Views are not "controversial" just because Bosniaks don't like someone.). The reason that this is 'silly' is because the offending text has been there since 22 August 2012, here:-[111]. I have NO idea, whether the original inserter is a 'Bosniak', I am certain that the 20-40 editors who have not queried this vague, unreferenced claim since, cannot possibly ALL be Bosniaks.

You want examples of copyvio try this collapsed section:-[112], this is two years after I first pointed out on talk that the synopsis is almost entirely 'cut and paste' from the film's website, and almost 4 years after the first copyvio warning. You want POSSIBLE video copyvio, look at the film maker's page and the 'media and lectures' part of that talk and at recent removal history on that and other pages. (I say POSSIBLE, because I am never SURE when it is either legal, or appropriately 'unpromotional' to use video as source - because I am not sure, I tag or note on talk, but do not remove offending material). Pincrete (talk) 14:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

That [113] edit summary is not "racist abuse", it was just an unsupported statement, a claim that a view is only "controversial" under a particular historiography. Urbanvillager was correct to remove that content, and you agreed that it was correct to remove it - "controversial" is a weasel-word at the best of times, and on this occasion it was unsupported by sources yet was fraudulently claiming to have a source. Urbanvillager should be congratulated for removing inappropriate content that had stood unnoticed for two years. The removed content was originally inserted by an editor who only ever made two edits [114] - a single purpose account if ever there was one. This seems to be another example showing the long-term nature of the attempts to sabotage this article. I'd be interested in knowing who placed the faked reference against that "controversial views" claim. The reference being cited by the time Urbanvillager removed the content, http://www.weightofchains.com/about.html, makes no mention of the person having "controversial views". Regarding copyvio, you have not given any diffs. However, if it is this [115], then it is a very strange copyvio allegation - the deleted content consisted of just dates and lists of places: these are facts and facts cannot be copyrighted. To claim copyvio reasoning for the other removed content, the plot synopsis, is even more bizarre - there is no exact wording like it on the weightofchains.com site. Are you or Diannaa claiming that any synopsis will be copyvio by its nature? If so, how does every other film article manage to have a synopsis? I see no copyvio at all in the deleted material. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

New editor...

• Wikicology (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm caught between WP:BITE and the trail of destruction this editor seems intent on leaving in their wake. Wikicology joined WP a little over 3 months ago and has since made about 1000 edits, 40% of which are to user talk pages where Wikicology likes to provide "expert" guidance and advice to new and established editors alike. I didn't come across them until their most questionable non-admin closure of this deletion discussion. But scanning through their edit history there are some other concerning things like:

• This series of edits to Deb's talk page.
• This equally strange advice to Northamerica1000.
• This doubling-down on WikiDan61's talk page.

I'm all for enthusiasm but attempting to function as a quasi-admin and getting it so consistently wrong is a recipe for disaster. I'm especially concerned about the idea of a non-admin with this sort of AFD track-record closing discussions (and if the currently-open AFD nominations are anything to go by, that record is progressing in the wrong direction). There's an obvious language barrier there (which makes me even less inclined to bring it here) but we're watching a bad situation get worse. St★lwart¹¹¹ 14:03, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

There's also this on Bobrayner's talk and this on his own. But I've since seen he counts Kelapstick and RHaworth as mentors so in fairness I've pinged them too. St★lwart¹¹¹ 14:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• Since I was pinged on this, I'll throw in my 2¢ worth. My take on Wikicology is that xe is unwilling to accept advice from more experienced editors, and has an unnecessarily belligerent attitude. The fact that xe is active in WP:NPP, and thus interacting with many newbies leads to lots of biting that, on balance, does more harm than good to the project. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 14:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• That was a spectacularly bad call in closing the AFD. I'll soon be reverting it. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I have given him the benefit of the doubt for this [116] where an article was accepted from AFC in this current state. Admittedly now Wikicology and several others have helped clean up the article significantly, however I still don't feel it should ever have been moved into the mainspace so I took it to AFD. I think a gentle nudge to be more cautious is definitely in order. CaptRik (talk) 15:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I am particularly glad with Stalwart111 report here as this will significantly improve my edit behaviour. Let me start by correcting an impression of WikiDan61 that I don't take advice from experience editors, that's very untrue. Who else will I take an advice from if not an experienced editor? Deb is not a bot she is an admin. and I had made several comment on his talk pages. If she find it offensive, am sure deb would have taken a proactive measure to curb it, perharps report me here. It is true that I had an issue with Bobrayner (talk · contribs) but i tendered an unreserved apology to him and it was settled. I admit the fact that my comment seemed to be hostile at times and that's usually wit spammers because I found it odd to be polite with spammers. I had no intention to bite new editors. Sometimes I don't even see my comment as a bite. It is easy for Stalwart111 to point out my errors and I will take to correction. It will also be easy for others to point out his error because no one is a perfect editor. But sequel to the above allegation, am ready to takes to correction and it will not repeat itself.Wikicology (talk) 16:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Wikicology: Based on the above, and this advice from an editor, I think it might be best for you to refrain from giving advice to editors, even new editors, for a bit and take some time to observe how editors talk to each other here. Your communication style has been somewhat combative, even if you did not intend for it to be so, and even if you feel like your actions are correct. Speaking from my own experience, there is a lot to learn about Wikipedia even within the first year or two of doing so. It's best to accept that you will make mistakes because you are still learning (as am I, after editing for several years), and that trying to argue every time you are challenged is not going to be productive for you looking ahead. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 17:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't recall any particular interaction beyond this, and this shows as much, certainly not enough for me to consider myself a mentor. Thanks for the ping though Stalwart111. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 16:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• The edits here and here (noted above) are particularly worrying to me. Lesson 0 of any collaborative project is humility. We don't always know everything and we should all be willing to dial back accusations like those when countered rather than ratcheting them up. For Wikicology, here are some general pointers: When in doubt, don't template people or warn them unnecessarily. There's no need to warn editors that they might be blocked (either directly or via a euphemism) unless you're absolutely sure that A: they will be blocked for that behavior and B: that a warning will potentially deter them from said behavior. This avoids two problems. First, you don't end up biting a new editor and second you avoid having to decide whether or not you have to be "polite to spammers". If someone is spamming a link (especially multiple times) then just revert the edit. If you feel that a revert needs to be explained (and it often has to be), then leave a polite explanation noting the problems with the edit and how to correct them. Next, when someone who is not involved with a particular dispute (e.g. a revert or a comment you've left) raises an issue with your actions, your first step should be to stop and evaluate whether or not they could be correct. There's no prize for being right. You don't need to apologize or promise to correct the error every time someone comments but consider the possibility that they may have a point. Finally, while it is fun to patrol new pages and recent changes sometimes this isn't the best path for everyone. Consider just editing articles or participating in discussions for a while, you'll be amazed at how much perspective you get by merely stepping away from anti-vandalism tools for a while. Protonk (talk) 16:57, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• I think one of the problems here is that Wikicology is new, and trying to fit in. In doing so, they are "borrowing" a lot of phraseology and style from those who they see as "role models", such as those folks they list as "mentors". For instance, many of the phrases used are ones which RHaworth commonly uses, and they are listed as a user Wikicology admires. English maybe not being a first language tends to compound this approach. Unfortunately, because they haven't been here as long as those other editors, or gained the experience and respect which those other editors have, they can tend to use those "borrowed" styles in a way that isn't really appropriate. This can then be miscontrued as "talking down" when I'm sure that's not the intention. I have absolutely no doubt that they mean very well indeed, and can make great contributions, in time, but it would, I think, be wise for them to wait until they have listened to, and actively sought, enough advice before being confident in offering so much. A mentor is someone who has agreed to that role, and to whom one should actively go for advice, rather than just copy. They can explain why they do what they do, and at what times it would, or would not, be appropriate for you to do the same, or how you might approach things differently. Begoon ^talk 17:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• From the depth of my heart, i thank all amiable contributors for the useful comments. I appreciates every criticism from Stalwart111. Sincerely I feel victimized by Stalwart111 report here. I see it as a deliberate intention to sabotage my efforts. Protonk, I only issued warning when an editor make an unconstructive edit such as adding unsourced content to BLP, obvious vandalism, test edit, habitual refusal to use the edit summary, unjustifiable remover of content etc. I think am right for doing that. However, I don't see anything controversial in the AfD discussion closure that leads to this report. It seemed controversial to Stalwart111 simply because he reacted to every comments that favours keep. From a NPOV, I don't think his reactions to the comments make the discussion controversial. When he discovered that the discussion was closed as keep, he wasn't satisfied simply because his vote was Delete and he decided to take the advantage of the fact that am not an admin. I think his report is not from a npov. He should have waited for a neutral experienced editor to challenge it, perhaps one of those whose vote reflect Keep or editor that never participated in the discussion. But I have no other choice than to assume good faith. Am pretty sure that this report will help my edit behavior to a very large extent, because I now knew where I got it wrong and I will surely mend my cloth where it torn. But I feel victimized with Stalwart111 report. I feel sad as I type! Wikicology (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology, my objection to your closure has nothing to do with the controversy of the topic (it's not controversial). I didn't "take advantage" of anything and my contribution to that discussion is irrelevant. I didn't challenge the result at WP:DRV, I challenged the closure and would have done so if you had closed as "delete" or (really) anything at all. You simply shouldn't be closing discussions. St★lwart¹¹¹ 21:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology, I'm not really convinced you appreciate the criticism because you don't seem to acknowledge the mistakes you have made (which is all that they are to me, mistakes, and they're not a big deal) and instead continue to make accusations about other editors (which is problematic). Maybe it's a language issue, but that's how I read your response. I think the suggestions that Begoon offers above is something you should strongly consider: ...it would, I think, be wise for them to wait until they have listened to, and actively sought, enough advice before being confident in offering so much. Please understand we're not trying to victimize you, but we are trying to lead you down a more productive path because it's clear you have potential and the energy to do good work here. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 19:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• One very trivial example of Wikicology not getting it, but no harm done either. This Tuesday I set out to create Dzanc Books and was met by a message that it had been previously created and deleted as so much corporate spam. I put off creation for one day, and followed the message's suggested advice, leaving a heads-up with the deleting admin, User:Deb. Wikicology left a pointless message, suggesting I use WP:AFC, apparently one of his pet projects. Choor monster (talk) 19:24, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

• thank you I JethroBT and Begoon. I will learn from my mistake and I will make use of every useful advice. Thanks to you all.Wikicology (talk) 20:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I believe you will. Here's some more advice: Don't copy what other people say or do, word for word - develop your own style and way of doing things. If you're not sure what to do, ask someone you trust. In fact, even if you are sure, ask anyway - it can't hurt. If you don't have people to trust, find some by talking to them. There are lots of people who can help you. Take things slow. When you write a message to someone, preview it, and imagine how you would feel if someone had written it to you. Really imagine that - then write it again, better. You'll do fine. Start with basic things - even formatting, I just fixed all your indents here, for instance; see WP:INDENT. It's lots to learn, and it will take a lot of time. Begoon ^talk 20:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that spending too much time on the internet, and Wikipedia in particular, does strange things to you. For example, I just filled up Concetta the Corolla with petrol, and notice that the price was $AU 1.337. ZOMG! I thought, it's leet a litre. (Just thought I'd share that with everyone). Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 05:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

• Withdrawal of his Rollback Rights will make him a Better Wikipedian: My first encounter with Wikicology was when I voted that one of his article should be speedily deleted (as I frequently give my opinions on Nigeria related AFDs) His response was very fascinating to me because he carefully twisted Wikipedia policies against me. Although he apologized later but since I gave that vote, he continued to disrupt all my articles on Wikipedia. He went further to issue warnings to me on his talkpage.

I believe rollback rights should be reserved for experienced editors with very good track-record. I see no basis for giving him this right, at least until he gets a basic understanding on how the Wikipedia community works. Even though it might look like it, I am not saying all these because of the rift we had but out of my deep respect for privileged (special powers) users on Wiki and I just think him retaining the right is similar to giving a loaded AK47 to a newborn baby instead of allowing him to mature. Darreg (talk) 04:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that ANI is supposed to be where experienced editors contributes to discussion from a WP:NPOV to correct abnormalities based on facts and not on existing criticism. It is so sad that Darreg comment suggest a conflict of interest centered on the past clash we had, coupled with false accusation and allegations. Darreg had created over 50 articles here on wikipedia. He claimed that I disrupted all his articles. From his statement above ...he continued to disrupt all my articles on Wikipedia. I wonder how wikicology will disrupt over 50 articles (without being blocked long ago). I challenge Darreg to provide links, one-by-one to where I disrupt over 50 articles he created on wikipedia. In addition Rollback is an anti-vandal tool. I am glad to say that am an active patroller of both RC and NPP. Since he has comment on my rollback tool which is even out of point, I challenge Darreg again to provide links one-by-one to where I used my tool to make controversial changes or revert and where I used my tool to engaged in edit warring.I think Stalwart111 and other experienced editors will be interested in that. Having admitted the fact that my tone seemed to be hostile and accepted series of advices from different experienced editors, I expected Darreg to come up with useful and helpful comment rather than criticism based on false accusation and allegations. From a NPOV, I don't think this is expected from an editor who claimed a certain level of experienced.Wikicology (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• This is my first unpleasantry on Wiki. On or about 31 Aug 2014 User:Serten left a message in German on my user talk page (see: "Jetz aber"). I responded at Sertens user talk page in German (see: E CLAMPUS VITUS, usw).

Wickology placed a template "Speak english" on my user talk page and Sertens. I believed Wickiology was some sort of Wiki-functionary. I responded at my user talk page because I perceived Wickiologys user and talk pages to be unfriendly and contradictory. I never received a reply.

Wickiology then placed template "Not a forum" on my user talk page.

I presume Wickiology followed Serten to my user talk page. Prior to 31 August 2014 I never heard of either of them.

I feel Wickiologys actions are in poor form. I concede English is probably not Wickiologys primary language. After reading all this here, I have cause to surmise there is something behind Wickiologys editing other than presumptive ESL. I wish at this time to keep these opinions to myself, and never want hear from Wickiology again.

Help stop climate change here: [117] Tjlynnjr (talk) 19:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC) .

Tjlynnjr, the fact that you are getting it all wrong is now my headache. Perhaps you felt here is a ground for criticisms. Your basis for criticism is illegitimate because I was right for my action. There is nothing unfriendly on my talk page, maybe because I don't communicate in german or any other foreign language you love. On that memorable day, during my usual RC patrol, I found this on Serten talk page and this on Tjlynnjr talk page. Based on my understanding of policy and Per WP:SPEAKENGLISH I believed it was necessary for editors to communicate in english language on english wikipedia so that comments may be comprehensible to the community at large. To relief me of typing, I templated the both of them. Serten gave a compliment on his talk page. Tjlynnjr apologized that he was not familiar with wikipedia policy. Here is what he said..@Serten: @Wikicology: I apologise. I will also apologise to User:Serten at his page in case he was offended. I have been here at enWiki since March 2008; a fair time, but I am not technically skilled (in this HTML ? stuff, or what ever it is I am doing now) or well versed in Wiki protocol etc. I only discovered the "Ping User" feature a few days ago (August 2014). That is what he said to cut the history short. Serten responded with Wikicology is formal but friendly. Imma mir da Ruah (keep a stiff upper lip ;) Serten (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2014 (UTC). Am totally lost to see the same Tjlynnjr coming here to criticize again. What a life!!! Wikicology (talk) 22:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sorry for butting in here but I noticed that at much of Microbial growth monitoring techniques that this editor recently created appears to be copied almost word-for-word from this book, starting at "Monitoring microbial growth in culture". I'm still fairly new and I'm not sure what to do about copyright problems like this so I thought I could bring it up here. Thanks. --Ca2james (talk) 23:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for pointing this out, Ca2james. It is thanks to people like you that Wikipedia continues to exist, because Wikipedia does not (mostly) get copyright complaints or lawsuits. I have tagged the page in question for speedy deletion. I await an explanation from User:Wikicology. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks, Demiurge1000. There are two more articles created by Wikicology with copyright issues: Transcription activators in eukaryotes, on which I've placed a speedy deletion tag, and Molecular tools for gene study, where I've made a note on the Talk page. When the latter article was created it was copied and pasted from another source but it's since been edited by others and appears to no longer have copyright violations. I'm not sure that Wikicology understands copyright issues or why it's not acceptable to copy and paste from other sources to create an article, based on their response to my note on the Talk:Molecular tools for gene study page. --Ca2james (talk) 16:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Further, User:Wikicology, please could you explain why you think that this is your first unpleasantry on the English Wikipedia, when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taofeek Olakunle Ajiboye already occurred? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:11, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

It was not Wikicology experiencing their first unpleasantry on Wikipedia, but user:Tjlynnjr. The indentation used by Wikicology's for their reply to user:Tjlynnjr was insufficient. I changed it for clarity. - Takeaway (talk) 07:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Copyright issues is not a discussion for ANI. It can only be mention or reported here if an editor continues to violate the policy. If an article meet any of the criteria for speedy deletion (CSD), it should be tag appropriately and speedily deleted from wikipedia. Thank you so much Demiurge, I respect your ideology. I had decided to be quiet, as a result of blatant criticism and false accusation from certain editors whose comment is not from a NPOV. I can't ignore an editor like you. Regarding your question, that comment was not made by me. It was particularly made by Tjlynnjr above who felt that suggesting him to communicate in english language rather than german is unpleas. As for the AfD/Taofeek Olakunle Ajiboye, I don't have any problem with that because it was obvious that the article fails WP:GNG Thank you Demiurge. Wikicology (talk) 07:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm a bit worried about Wikicology's involvement with this AFC, having declined it as promotional and without sufficient establishment of notability. I don't see either of these issues when I read it myself and after a quick search on Google. - Takeaway (talk) 11:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Takeaway you need not to be worried sir. Am uncertain as to weather you had the opportunity to read the declined version. I want to let you know that the author of the draft has been improving it since on 13, August based on my advice. Infact he has also worked on it in the last few minutes today. I am sure that you only read the recent improved version as suggested by the link you provided above which actually pointed to the most recent improved version, contrary to the older version that was declined by wikicology here. In the older version, the first few lines claimed that the subject appears to be the first person to have obtain both MD and Ph.D in economics from university of pennsylvania, a claimed not supported by the references provided for verification. To save our time. As per the notability, the references you saw might appears much and sufficient to you but the majority of the references are primary sources which is insufficient to established notability. Article on BLP must be well-sourced with independent reliable sources. eventualism does not applies to BLP. In addition, if a submitted draft is decline, the essence of doing that is to improve it and the creator can resubmit it after improvement. If you saw some reliable sources on google as you had claimed, you can help the creator to simply adding it and am sure you will be thanked for doing that. Thank you for your comments. Wikicology (talk) 14:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I actually did read the declined version. As for primary sources, it is not that it is forbidden to use them per WP rules, it is just advised not to use them to prevent editors here on Wikipedia to engage in original research. As far as I could see, the primary sources used in the proposed article, were used only as proof for such simple statements as "Harris has published widely on smoking and health". The whole list of references after this statement is just a list of articles that Harris had written. In my opinion, knowing a bit about who Harris is, and how influential he has been for the formulation of laws regarding smoking, it was hardly necessary. The problem with a person such as Harris is that he is widely known in academic circles and with policy makers, just not with a wider public. As such, there are no easy-to-find quotable articles about his notability. I found that the article that you declined was sufficient for WP. It doesn't need to be perfect. I'm surprised that the editor hasn't given up. I've hardly seen an article where so much of the content is referenced. - Takeaway (talk) 14:52, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I just accepted the revised article on Harris; I think there's enough evidence he meets WP:PROF. Naturally, there's room for further improvement, as for all articles. I may of course be wrong, and anyone who disagrees is welcome to question the matter at AFD. DGG ( talk ) 17:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• With respect to copyright, I saw the speedy tag on Transcription activators in eukaryotes, and while checking it, I saw the message Wikicology left on its talk page trying to explain why it should not be deleted: Science related articles are different from other articles. They often follow the same principles. A cell is a cell in any source. This misunderstanding of copyright in my opinion is sufficiently fundamental that I do not think this editor should be reviewing articles or AfCs, or advising new editors. I think the privilege to review AfC should be withdrawn, and there is need for a topic ban on reviewing at NewPage Patrol. He clearly does not know the basics himself. The principle is that Competence is Required. As for copyright, I've given him a level 4 warning for copyvio, and I intend to block him altogether if there is another such violation in the future. DGG ( talk ) 17:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• I thank all amiable community members who has made one or more comments, advices and recommendations towards the improvements of my edit behavior. However, I beseech the entire community members to please forgive me and give me a benefit of doubt ( not to sanction me with a topic banned on NPP or withdrawn my privilege to review AFC). I have passion for this project. I joined the community with an intention to improve it and not with a motive for disruption. I had been very active ever since I joined the project with the desire to become an administrator someday. However, I know that my dream will surely come true. Intense sanction may not allow this dream to come true. This discussion has really exposed me to a lot of things and I will make use of all the advices provided above which I have already put into play and I promise to abide and adhere strictly to every policies. On this note I beg you to temper justice with mercy. Wikicology (talk) 20:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

@Wikicology: For Pete's sake, don't even start thinking about being an administrator right now. It's not necessary to be an administrator to be able to effectively contribute to Wikipedia, so please just focus on the advice we are giving you. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 02:57, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you sir. I promise to focus on the advices. Wikicology (talk) 10:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• It would seem that Wikicology has used the reasons for deleting this AfD, an article which he had created, and applied it to his reviewing of the AfC of Jeffrey Harris (Economist, Physician) without truly understanding that a very notable academic is not the same as one non-notable academic. After quickly scanning his contributions list I have also noticed that Wikicology in some instances ([118], [119], [120]) reverts edits without understanding that these reverts were not at all contributing to Wikipedia. Edits such as this one where a whole list of exhibitions and projects by the artist were deleted with the edit summary "Cleanup unneccesary section", and this one do not give me much confidence that this editor actually knows what they are doing. Tagging this edit as vandalism, and also warning the editor, was totally unnecessary, especially in the light that said editor was in the process of improving the article. Adding this article for PROD without giving a valid reason. After Wikicology is warned about their actions by RHaworth, they apologise. Apologising after incorrect actions seems like a constant in their behaviour. It seems to me that this user wants to do too much, and too soon, hoping to become an important editor and administrator here on Wikipedia as quickly as possible. - Takeaway (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• In this thread as well as the past examples Takeaway points out, I only see generic apologies and promises to follow "advice". Not anything specific enough to indicate that they get it and know exactly what they need to stop doing. I've seen this pattern many, many times before with other editors, all of whom may be very well meaning but have no real self-awareness of their limitations nor an inclination to really listen to other editors except when they are threatened with sanctions. So you have someone with only a few months and a thousand edits under their belt thinking they know better than every long time veteran (as evidenced here, as already noted above)... That kind of arrogance rather overrides any good faith intentions to improve the encyclopedia, particularly when it's exacerbated by difficulties with the English language. Really the only thing that makes any difference is topic banning and mentoring, though that typically just limits the damage rather than encouraging actual growth. I just don't see a real prospect for improvement here, just more of the same. And the recently discovered copyright problems should be the last straw. postdlf (talk) 16:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I came across Wikicology a couple of months ago. My thoughts were, this editor has got hold of a copy of "How to become a Wikipedia Administrator in 6 months". This imaginary tome details the successful techniques one must follow to become a guaranteed administrator within 6 months of starting to edit Wikipedia. It instructs editors to choose an impressive screen name, to do as little actual content editing as possible, and do all that content editing on uncontroversial articles (you don't want to get sanctions or be involved in disputes), to regularly create a few articles (obscure and uncontroversial ones of course), to give out lots of advice, including posting things on users pages (new editors are best for this - they don't talk back) and mentioning Wikipedia and "the project" a lot (if you act like an administrator and talk like an administrator, one day you will be one), to frequent areas frequented by administrators so that you get yourself noticed by administrators (you need to find that special one who will one day nominate you), and to do as much non-administrator administrating on Wikipedia as you can (such as AfDs, etc.). And absolutely never be funny / flippant / sarcastic - there is no place for humor on Wikipedia - it's a serious business. I wonder, what has Wikicology done to make it go so wrong? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

They messed up the "new editors are best for this - they don't talk back" part. Anyway, absent a formal proposal for some editing restrictions, we appear to have run out of steam here. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:59, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"Run out of steam"? Everyone agrees this editor has been a consistent problem across many areas. And it looks like yet another copy and paste copyvio was posted by him today, after User:DGG just warned him yesterday, and his response there is just baffling ("I just detected it too."). If you need it formalized, propose site ban as there is apparently no positive reason to permit Wikicology to continue to edit here in any capacity. Or, at minimum, indef block to be lifted only if someone agrees to mentor him (and Wikicology submits to this) and under the conditions that Wikicology is not to edit any articles until he demonstrates to the mentor's satisfaction that he understands how to respect copyright, and that until a consensus at ANI reverses it he is not to post anything in project space, not to review new articles, not to revert or undo any edits by another editor, and not to warn other editors, tell them what to do, or tell them what policy is or says. postdlf (talk) 22:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The copyvio content was already there before Wikicology started editing the article so indeed it has nothing to with them.

I've read a few suggestions on what actions would be best in this whole matter. I think that User:DGG's proposals here above are sound. I'm not here very often and normally only read this page as a source of amusement (oops) so I have no idea how to proceed with a formal proposal but my advise would be that Wikicology should limit their role here on Wikipedia for the foreseeable future, or be limited, to edit subjects where they they have real expertise instead of trying to be someone who knows everything. After a while, after gaining more knowledge on the inner workings of Wikipedia, they can proceed from there into other fields IF they are so inclined. - Takeaway (talk) 22:33, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Let us kindly assume that Wikicology will take that recommendation on board (as a suggestion - no AfC reviews, no new page patrolling, no giving advice to others, for a few months), and that DGG will indeed block Wikicology if they see them adding copyvio text again, and that no formal remedies are required. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I think before we can assume anything, we need a substantive comment from Wikicology that demonstrates they understand all of this. Not just generic promises and apologies. postdlf (talk) 15:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Postdlf can you please stop giving a wrong impression of me?. At least you won't take any credit for doing that. Am surprise that you could say here that I added a copyright content to Royal_Adelaide_Golf_Club. I never added any copyright content. I only added references. When I wanted to add the last reference to a particular section, I copied some sentences from the section to confirm the claim on google, there I discovered that copyright content was included in the section (not by me). Because of the nature of my browser, I must save a particular section before the next section. Immediately I save the section (without addition of any content not even the reference I wanted to add) I discovered it was tag for copyvio. by User:None but shining hours. He left a message on my talk page to ask if I wanted to fix the problem. He fixed it and later advised me to always verify for possible copyvio in an article before adding references so as not to give a wrong impression. Now user:Postdlf ran here to say that I added a copyvio content and even talking about site ban forgotten that he was once a new editor. Am not happy with this kind of behaviour. Every member of the community are suppose to behave as one family. Please leave comment that will help my edit behaviour and not comments full of critics.Wikicology (talk) 22:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Based on the advices provided by various experienced editors above, I had decided and agreed to limit myself to normal edit ( not to review AFC, NP, not to warn editors) for 3 months. This will enable me to learn more about how editors interact as well as learning the basic policy. I also need a mentor to guild and review my works. I thank you all. Wikicology (talk) 22:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems as if this case can be closed. I personally don't think that active monitoring by an experienced editor is needing during this period. Wikicology's latest article looks fine from what I could see: no copyvio and adequately referenced. Yes, there are some grammar and spelling mistakes but that can be easily taken care of in subsequent edits. Standard WP checks on new articles and edits in existing articles should suffice. Perhaps Wikicology could ask someone, once this 3 month period is over, to review their progress and verify that they have not violated anything (easily done by looking at Wikicology's talkpage and list of contributions), and advise them on how to proceed? - Takeaway (talk) 12:19, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology's self-agreed editing limits detailed above seem acceptable to me as an ordinary editor, as long as that "not warning editors" will also include not going around telling other editors what Wikipedia is or is not, what Wikipedia procedures are, and what "good" Wikipedia editors should do. I hope he comes to realise that people who edit Wikipedia with the purpose from the outset of becoming Wikipedia administrators are probably the worst people to actually be administrators. If Wikicology abandons all hope of becoming an administrator I bet his editing will dramatically improve. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:47, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• I have just reviewed a new article by Wikicology and unfortunately it is a mess. I have given them some advice and 24 hours to clean it up. If it is then still unsatisfactory, it will have to be put up for AfD. I am now very unsure if Wikicology can actually function here on the English Wikipedia on anything beyond very basic level editing such as cleaning up bare URLs. Very, very sorry... - Takeaway (talk) 22:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology has rewritten the article. After I had confronted them with my findings yesterday, that many of the original citations did nothing to support the content of the article and were only used to make the article look reliable, it has gone from 39 citations back to only 5, and it is now reduced to only two lines of text including the lead (see this dif). Wikicology is of course not at all happy with me any more, accusing me of WP:BITE after my message here yesterday evening to keep this thread from being archived, stating that they are a new user so are not expected to know better while still arguing that all of the fluff citations supported the content. This comes from someone who, until a few days ago, was going around Wikipedia "advising" people what and what not to do, and "helping" with AfC's .

Apparently, the self-imposed limit to only do "normal editing" did not, in their mind, entail staying away from AfD either (see their latest contribs). Refraining from giving their views at AfD had of course not been mentioned expressly by other editors here in this thread...

They seem to be incapable of accepting responsibility for their own actions. From today's interaction on their talkpage (see User_talk:Wikicology#Your_report_at_ANI): "You said here that the references are too much. I removed them based on your advice. I also removed bulk of the article content. Do you still expect me to includes the references you once condemn?". What I actually said was that the article's content was not backed by the multitude of irrelevant citations and that it should be cleaned up and rewritten. Wikicology seems to just make up excuses as they go along, and deny all responsibility when things go wrong for them. Having now been confronted with this side of them, I can understand what WikiDan61 meant with "unnecessarily belligerent attitude". I had given them the benefit of the doubt, thinking that they would have learned something from all the advice here above and on their talkpage, but now I just don't know what to do any more with someone who exhibits this sort of behaviour. - Takeaway (talk) 21:16, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

If AfD, NPP, not warning newbies, not reviewing AfC is accepted, probably they can't do too much damage can they? There might be some language issues involved, but that is unavoidable. Perhaps give the proposed restrictions a few months and see how it goes? I don't like to see a block without some chance to improve; on the other hand, I have no experience in these matters. Kingsindian (talk) 23:31, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Looking at their recent contribution history, they seem to now focus on AfD's. Not sure how damaging that is? Keeping oneself busy with AfD's can actually be quite educational I guess, especially when one throws around a whole bunch of wiki policy abbreviations which hopefully they've actually read. I don't really want to involve myself with this editor any more after our last interaction. I also think they would rather not work with me any longer either. Hopefully someone else can take over and/or shed some new light on this matter? - Takeaway (talk) 15:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the AFD closed by Wikicology as "Keep" and complained about above, was later closed as "No consensus to delete", which is not terribly different. (Note the later close is itself under deletion review, headed towards being upheld as an okay close, i think. However jumping in to close AFDs is probably not wise for any relatively new contributor. Participating in AFDs otherwise is an okay and educational activity, in my opinion, though i think it would be better to contribute to articles. Spending 13 hours per day on Wikipedia (per user page statement), doing any mix of activities, is not at all recommended! Feedback has been given, and acknowledged, this ANI could be closed. --doncram 20:01, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

However, participating in or initiating AfDs has the potential to do more damage than most other editing activities - article edits can be reversed or removed (and if they are bad ones, they eventually will be), but faulty reasoning on an AfD can lead to an entire article being deleted for ever, complete with all the work that went into making the article. So I think it is not really an OK activity for a problematic editor. I'm concerned that Wikicology (as indicated by Takeaway) has continued to participate in AfDs even after making the suggestion that refraining from AfDs would be a solution. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Tiptoethrutheminefield, I don't think is appropriate for you to address me as a problematic editor. I think someone should caution you on that. I am a potential and productive contributor. Since the beginning of this discussion as initiated by Stawalt111, I had created about 5 different pages and also substantially improve other articles. I had never went contrary to the advises of experienced editors above (No new page patrol, no AFC review and no warning of other editor for now). However, with all sense of humility, am uncertain as to weather you really understand the basis of AfD as suggested by your statement above: faulty reasoning on an AfD can lead to an entire article being deleted for ever, complete with all the work that went into making the article. Also your contributions to AfD is about 4% of your total contributions. This suggest that you have little or no experienced on how AfD discussion works. I want to let you know that consensus cannot be reached on Faulty Reasoning and no article can be deleted on faulty reasoning. Consensus are reached based on critical reasoning and evaluations. In addition, I had never made any comment at AfD discussion without pointing to the appropriate policy that supported my votes, comment or suggestion according to the rule for contributing to the discussion. No suggestion refrain wikicology from contributing to AfD. Am sure that no experienced editor will suggest that, as AfD is one of the areas were editors also learn some basic wikipedia policy. However, I think this discussion should be closed.Wikicology (talk) 19:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikicology, this entire thread is about you being a problematic editor! However, regarding refraining from AfDs, on re-reading your earlier resolution suggestion I see that you did not make such an offer. Apologies for suggesting that you did. I stand by my assertion that eager unskilled participation in or initiation of AfDs has the potential to do more damage on Wikipedia than most other editing activities. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:09, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is the latest display of his AfD "experience": [[121]] - it is also, I think, a clear example of bad faith editing, undoubtedly made because I created the article. Wikicology does not even understand that an article about a person who died in 1932 is not a BLP! So much for his understanding of Wikipedia procedures. Wikicology needs to be blocked from all activities involving advanced Wikipedia editing - this includes AfD creation and voting, new article creation, and posting advice or form messages on other editor's pages. If that is not possible for technical reasons, would it be a loss to be rid of him completely - he seems irredeemable. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 17:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Yep, Wikicology also followed me to an article that I had worked on recently but apparently nothing there to be found so they just filled in bare URLs. It's one thing to keep an eye on problematic editors, but it's a completely different thing to follow around editors with whom one personally has a problem. - Takeaway (talk) 18:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Me thinks that there is a bit too little WP:AGF going on. Filling in bare references can't be taken as any evidence of an intent to do something nefarious. Reviewing their AfD's, apart from the one which Tiptoe mentioned, (which could have been simply a mistake, it was speedily withdrawn, once it was pointed out that the subject was dead), I do not see any obviously bad calls (example1, example2, example3). Participating in AfDs seem to me an activity which does some good and doesn't do much harm. Certainly no evidence has been provided to consider draconian sanctions like banning. Kingsindian ♝♚ 19:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Except for the proposed deletion of Cynicus, it has not been suggested that Wikicology has been acting in a deliberately nefarious way - the problem appears to be arising out of incompetence, not out of maliciousness, and is compounded by Wikicology showing no signs of learning from mistakes. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:33, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Kingsindian, there are many articles where they could have fixed bare URL's. Why did Wikicology have to follow me to an article that I had worked on directly after my criticism about their fluffed up article on their talk page? And again after they complained about me here on an admin's talk page but where they did not get the result they seemed to be looking for. As for nominating Tiptoethrutheminefield's article for deletion, why is it that the only deletion nomination that this user had initiated since this ANI started, happened only after Tiptoe's recent critical evaluation? All a big coincidence/mistake? Hmmmm.... I started out here with giving this problematic user a lot of leeway but after their recent actions, I have had it with this editor. And since when is nominating AfD's only normal editing as they promised to limit themselves to? - Takeaway (talk) 20:28, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Checking their contributions does not implies that I followed them in bad faith. After all, they are not the only editors that commented here, even Stawalt111 that filled this report, I never did that to him and several other editors that didn't commented in favor of my edit behavior here. I improved the articles created by Takeaway few days ago and he was very much aware of that, thereafter he commented here but never made mention of wikicology following him. Now that an article created by an editor who comment here was nominated for deletion, is when Takeaway decided to claim here that I followed him. That's a biased argument to me, having been aware that the edit was in good faith. This is unexpected of an editor who claimed a certain level of experience, and telling me not to ask for advice on is talk page is not AGF to me. He is expected to lead by example. The nomination of the article created by Tiptoethrutheminefield is from a WP:NPOV and has nothing to do with his comment here. I intended to improve the article initially by adding references to it , but I couldn't find any that supported every claims in the article. I had no other choice than to take it to AfD. But I was too in a hurry to check the date, a mistake that anybody could make (even wikipedia veterans) just like the one committed here by Tiptoethrutheminefield today, followed by his apology). Immediately I discovered that, with Ca2james vote, I thanked him and withdrawn the nomination. Tiptoethrutheminefield and Takeaway What else do you want me to do?. If you think I will be blocked or ban for this, by an administrator, it won't happen. Takeaway participating in AfD is part of normal editing, that is one of the areas where editors learn more about wikipedia policies. Wikicology (talk) 21:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Despite all the cautions and corrections on this noticeboard. I am still quite amazed (and a little disappointed) that Wikicology has refused to learn anything from most of the suggestions and happenings here. If only he can take things easy I bet he will be a better Wikipedian. A similar scenario like the case of Tiptoethrutheminefield happened to me when I voted one of his articles to be deleted and he subsequently proposed 3 of my articles for deletion (Africa Movie Academy Awards for Most Promising Actor, Charles Ayo and Aize Obayan; all of which were eventually kept, some with speedy keep) and added several tags to some other articles (eg. Sylvia Oluchy). He also went as far as requesting a sockpuppet investigation just because of an unfavorable comment on the Charles Ayo's talkpage (thinking I was the one despite previously apologizing for the 3rd time). I did not handle the situation very wisely that was why he escaped being cautioned for those incident.

What I translate this new development to mean is that even after this case is closed, Wikicology will continue to go after editors with unfavorable responses to his edits. And I personally know how I felt after the incident with him and I do not think I want another Wikipedian to go through it (It has already even started here).

My greatest problem with Wikicology is not even straightening his grammatical blunders or his comprehension of Wiki editing guidelines but his disruptive badfaith approach in interacting with other editors. I am short of ideas on how we can propose a solution for such edit behavior especially since he always assumes to know what he has no clue about.

Possible Solution:

• Limit yourself to only creating new articles and commenting on AFDs and do NOT do anything more.
• If another editor nominates or proposes your article for deletion please do not go after his articles or related material, simply try to convince Wikipedians at the AFD that your article is indeed notable.

On a side note I want you to ask yourself the following questions:

• Why does it look like the people I call "mentors" on Wikipedia are not even trying to defend me?
• Why does it look like everyone is against me?

If you analyse these 2 questions very well then you will agree with me that there is something really wrong with your approach on Wikipedia (and maybe even outside Wikipedia). You can't just come to Wikipedia and start doing everything at once. I joined since 2009 and I nominated my first article for deletion in 2014. You really need to take things one at a time and slow down on assuming bad faith.Darreg (talk) 21:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It is very bad judgement to follow an editor with whom you have a problem to an article and edit it. It is even worse to nominate it for deletion; and by the way, where's the NPOV in that article? The content is based on a (real paper) book that you haven't read so how can you detect NPOV? If you accuse people of something, you have to prove it. Smearing people's edits and articles without proof is not going to make things any better for you here. As I said in my previous post, Wikicology followed Tiptoe once, and me twice, each time immediately after we criticised Wikicology for their behaviour. Before this ANI, Darreg apparently got 3 AfD's slapped on to their articles after giving Wikicology a reason for resentment. And not following Stalwart to any of their articles doesn't take away that you did do it to other people. Why I didn't report it when it happened the first time, nor the second time? I gave you the benefit of the doubt but after what happened to Tiptoe today, I see no reason to doubt your behaviour any longer, especially not after having read Darreg's account just now.

You didn't come to my talk page asking for advice. The suddenly oh-so-nice "thank you" message, just 3 days after unsuccessfully complaining to an admin about me, seemed only created for one thing, and I quote: "However, don't you think the discussion at ANI should have been closed by now? Or what do you think?".

Of course <sarcasm> your "mistake" of nominating Tiptoe's article for deletion was because you were in a hurry? Do you always carelessly nominate articles "in a hurry"?

Participating in AfD's can be part of a learning process. I was the even the first to suggest that in this thread. But nominating articles for deletion, with only a few months of experience, is certainly not part of normal editing. - Takeaway (talk) 22:49, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

What sanctions are there for an editor who wilfully misrepresents what people write?. Who out of resentment slap AfD's on to articles created by "adversaries"? Who try to twist their way out of their own mistakes by accusing others? (See the NPOV accusation here above). Who repeatedly accuse people of WP:BITING them because suddenly they're "new" but continue doing things that normally should only be done when a more experienced editor? Too tired to list more of their negative behaviour but I think these more or less sum it up. - Takeaway (talk) 23:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• Darreg, will you stop coming here to give false information to mislead other editors? Takeaway,let me give you the details with links for verification. After I and Darreg had a minor rift at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taofeek Olakunle Ajiboye (an article I created), he went ahead immediately to proposed Olawoye Theo Ladapo (an article I created) for deletion.See it here .

I was not happy with it. And because I had no experienced on how AfD discussion works then, I decided to nominate Charles Ayo (an article he created) for deletion because of the article state then, and besides I felt it was a norm here since he behaved the same way too. see it here. In fact see our intersect contributions here for verification. Did Darreg led by example then? Am so surprised and disappointed that Darreg could come here to make false claim again with an intention to distract and mislead others as well as to tarnish my integrity on wikipedia. I think a behavior like this is bad! Do we fold our arms to see it getting worst? However, I think ANI should be reserved strictly for administrators and highly experienced editors that will leave comment here from a Neutral Point of View, then ANI will serve its purpose and will never be a medium for editors to tackled and strongly criticised fellow editors who had step on their toes or offended them in the past.Wikicology (talk) 02:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

So Darreg was involved, together with a few others, in the AfD of your Taofeek Olakunle Ajiboye article and after it was deleted by general consensus, Darreg decided to research another article you had written, which again was deleted by general consensus for failing WP:PROF. To me, Darreg's listing of the Olawoye Theo Ladapo article at AfD can easily be explained as not done out of spite for the truly minute run-in that you both had, but out of concern that your other article too was not one which should have been here on Wikipedia.

You claim that Darreg's Charles Ayo article was also not correct so why did all other editors immediately back up Darreg's article with keep and even strong keep whereas both your articles only got deletes from all other editors? You have actually just admitted here on this forum that you put up Darreg's article for deletion out of resentment. You truly do not see where you went wrong???

It seems a constant in your interactions here on Wikipedia. When confronted with criticism, even when it's constructive, you first come up with an excuse why it's not your fault but then you immediately follow that up with a passive-aggressive accusation. In this whole thread, many of your replies follow the same pattern. To me it indicates that you either don't listen, or don't understand, and perhaps both. In any case, it's not the kind of behaviour that indicates that you can actually work together with other editors.

I really hope that an admin will very soon wrap this whole thing up. This last reply of yours was truly enlightening. - Takeaway (talk) 04:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

In this way too long a thread, somewhere in the beginning was mentioned that two more articles by Wikicology had been deleted as copyvios, and somewhere midway, one article had been reduced to a two line stub after all the unsourced content and irrelevant fluff references were removed. - Takeaway (talk) 04:14, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

In these whole thread, I observed that you always twist every comments to suit your interest. You want me sanction right? You need not threatening me with sanction. If am eventually sanction, by an administrator, it won't take away my life but will satisfy your interest ( at least you will let me be) and improve my edit behavior. The fact that my edit behavior has significantly improved since the onset of this discussion speak for itself. It is quiet unfortunate that you never mention anything about Darreg coming here to make false claims, despite the fact that I provided every prove. In fact you don't even see anything wrong in it. Am sure if wikicology did that, you will make it a topic of discussion here. Instead you twisted the whole comment. You were talking about article that was deleted and the one that was kept just to sweep the allegations under the carpet. This seemed like a biased argument to me. However, contrary to your believe and comments above, Darreg article, Charles Ayo was not kept because Darreg was supported by other editors but on the basis of the fact that the article meet WP:PROF and nobody nominated it as speedy keep except Darreg himself who created the article. Also the nomination of my second article by Darreg was on the basis of the rift we had and that was not done after the first article was deleted but during the discussion of the first article and immediately after I had a rift with Darreg. Based on your last comments above, I don't think its necessary for me to respond to your comment here again till this discussion is closed. since you will still twist my comments to suit your personal interest ( sanctioning of Wikicology).Wikicology (talk) 08:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you so very much Wikicology, for correcting me. I indeed made a few mistakes in my previous post. Just like you, I am in too much of a hurry sometimes. Please forgive me. Darreg did indeed start the 2nd AfD while the 1st one had not yet been closed. And indeed, no one supported Darreg either and the article was only kept because of it meeting WP:PROF. And indeed, in this ANI thread about you, no one actually needs to, as you call it, "twist" your comments at all. - Takeaway (talk) 11:49, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not want to grace you with a reply but I just want to correct the chronology of events from your reply that I went "immediately" to propose Olawoye Theo Ladapo for deletion after the "minor rift" at AFD/Taofeek. You probably "forgot" to also mention that you proposed Aize Obayan for deletion before that incident (You can check the dates to verify). You once again "stylishly" omitted that part to suit your case all in the bid of assuming "bad faith", now tell me who is really giving misinformation here. My nomination of your article for deletion was in good faith as I knew that at that time you arrogantly had no idea on the basics of Wikipedia (and you probably still do not), all I wanted was for you to at least understand that something needs to be notable and copyright compliant before being included here. If I wanted to assume "bad faith" I would have nominated all your articles then and raised the copyrights flag (I left that for other editors to find out which they did). My suggestions and comments then and here were solely in good faith. I do not want to derail else I will go on with my findings on your previous articles. Until you grasp a good understanding of Wikipedia etiquette, please stay clear of "my" articles. Good-luck! Goodbye! Happy Editing!. Darreg (talk) 15:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Note to any admins lurking: This has been going on for more than half a month. Perhaps time to close this? Kingsindian ♝♚ 00:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

204.17.60.130

This user's edits have all been undone.[122] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alrich44 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Interaction ban between Carolmooredc and Sitush proposed

Not sure if this has been proposed before, as the conflict between the two users is so depressing to me that I haven't been following it closely, but I feel a standard symmetrical IBAN between Carolmooredc and Sitush is needed. I haven't commented before in the conflict between them, as far as I remember. (Unless you count this post where I called Sitush a cunt to make him feel better.) What's pushed me over the edge into the fray is that Sitush is currently writing a BLP about Carol in his userspace. Carol has put it on MfD, Miscellany for deletion/User:Sitush/Carol Moore and Sitush's responses in that discussion strongly suggest strongly that he intends it for mainspace. A really terrible idea. Please note that I'm not suggesting Sitush is more at fault than Carol in their dispute in general. That's not my opinion, nor am I interested in depressing myself further by going back through the record and analysing it in depth. There's just too much of it. Both users need to take a handful of chill pills and back off. Our standard IBAN, described here would do well, in my opinion. Admittedly, it doesn't say that you're not allowed to write articles about people you're IBAN'd from interacting with, but common sense will obviously include that detail. Policy writers can't think of everything, nor should they even think of everything. Not to go TLDR here, please see my post here on Sitush's page if you're interested in an argument about how writing a BLP about a wiki-adversary is like writing a BLP about oneself (at least, it's like it in being equally unsuitable).

Note: I can't stop anybody from commenting here nor do I want to, but could the people who have already posted copiously in the conflict and would like to tell the world how much it's all Carol's fault/all Sitush's fault, please avoid swamping the thread with the usual back-and-forth? Leaving most of the space for those uninvolved in the conflict would be productive. Of course we'd all very much like to hear from Carol and Sitush whether or not they're prepared to agree to such a ban. That would make the "consensus" thing moot, which would save a lot of wear and tear on all our nerves. Bishonen | talk 17:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC).

(ec) Do you think the IBAN should have a fixed time frame or be indefinite? I am thinking that a few months may be enough. Indefinite bans have a tendency to fester over time. Chillum Need help? Type {{ping|Chillum}} 18:04, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• neutral to weak support There is certainly distraction for editors and admins caused by the interactions between the two. I'm not sure it raises to disruption. I note the issue above with Specifico. Normally when there is one editor involved in many disputes with many different editors, its a sign that the element in common may be the issue - however I acknowledge that there may be a larger political dispute in play and its not so much carol herself who is the nexus of the dispute, but the political position she represents (which is a perfectly acceptable position to be in, to be clear). I don't think the evidence is strong enough to show pure WP:HARASS on the part of sitush so in this instance would oppose a one-way. However, if a pattern continues where everyone who ends up on the opposite side of an argument with Carol gets ibanned, its going to make it difficult for Carols efforts to be seen as legitimate when the opposition has been silenced. (Which is not to say that they may not deserve being silenced). Its a difficult quandary. For the record, I think Sitush's article is well sourced, while some may suspect his motives, saying the resulting article is an attack is not shown by the evidence. However, it would be wiser for him to let someone else write it. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support, for the best interest of both these editors. GoodDay (talk) 18:03, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't see any actual issue with Sitush's recent article creation in his personal userspace. As far as I can tell, he's not flaunted it in her face or even remotely tried to point it out to her (I may be wrong, and if I am then this would obviously change to support). Her wikistalking and hounding of him is what's started this most recent tirade, and it is a waste of everyone's time an energy. Let's say I have an obvious hatred towards... User:GoodDay (just using you since you were the last to post) and I ended up writing a well written, neutral, policy compliant article on you because you did something wonderful and became article worthy and notable - what's the harm? There's no slew of hatred in sight there - nor is there anything within the article to suggest that Sitush dislikes her. Going to the extent of an IBAN is over the top here. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 18:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Concerns In this case I am more likely to support it because I have run into Sitush almost exclusively on administrative forums where he comes to criticize me, my talk page when he "forgets" he's banned, and lately Jimbo Wales talk page and gender gap task force. However, the fact he gave me less than 24 hours after the close of the last ANI regarding wikihounding of me before starting an aggressive form of harassment with this "draft bio" does make me worry he'll start following me to article spaces and causing problems there, while still observing the letter of the law (i.e., no replies, no reverts). As I wrote at the MfD:

As posted here the user wrote on their talk page that they were going to be analyzing me, linking to my website. I posted a harassment warning. At the subsequent discussion User_talk:Sitush#WP:Harassment_policy, I noted that in a recent WP:ANI that someone else brought on Wikihounding of me the user emphasized I'd linked to my website (way back in 2007-8)[123][124], urged people to "do some research" on me[125], and even wrote:I might have to start following her around more often myself if these proposals go through because someone has to keep an eye on her."[126]. The user has been following me to various noticeboards and a few article talk pages[127] to cast aspersions for more than a year and repeatedly posted at my talk page after I banned him.[128].

So I leave it up to others' better judgement. (Though I may have to reply to any questionable statements.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Later Note: Sitush has made threat(s) which resulted in an indefinite block and are discussed at ANI: Request review of block of Sitush. The actual text of the threats have been redacted and only partial and unofficial summaries shared by users. Sitush made the threat(s) within hours of angrily denouncing me for thinking that we were discussing a voluntary two-way interaction ban at this ANI(starting at “Indents are weird”). He earlier had written on his talk page “She wants me to avoid her because that would suit her: she "wins" because I'm censored regarding her interests and she has no interest in mine.”[129] Given his attitude that editing is about "winners and losers", I really must ask the closing admin to review the redacted comments to see if they are one more indication that a two-way interaction ban should be imposed. (There are three comments starting at 20:11, September 20, 2014‎ User talk: Sitush) Sitush now has been unblocked in only 24 hours [Later removal as actual unblocker identified and some explanation addedwithout a shred of explanation from the closing administrator, User:Nyttend. I can't rely on others' opinions that Sitush will not continue editing. And thus I must worry he will continuing his harassment of me. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:49, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Carol - remember how I told you to stay far, far away from the drama there? And how it seemed like you were soaking this stuff up and feeding on it? This post is a prime prime example of you seemingly grave dancing and playing the victim. Grow up. Aren't there better things for you to focus on at the moment considering that there's no sight of Sitush and you can work unimpeded at the moment? You focusing on this and seemingly providing these "updates" rather than working on editorial content and such is, well - concerning. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 03:54, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

As I understand it, and from all appearances, Sitush made the threatening remark towards Demiurge. There is no reason to believe it was directed at Carol.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:01, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Carol, please review what happened down below. Someone else unblocked him, so I closed the section because further discussion was moot. I shouldn't need to explain myself, because all I did was procedural, just like the bot that closes lots of WP:FFD discussions for images that got deleted by human admins. Nyttend (talk) 04:12, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for confusion. I see there is a sort of explanation now. So I struck both comments. I personally don't care if he continues to edit, I just don't want him harassing me any more. Hopefully that goal will be accomplished one way or the other. Meanwhile I'll be pursuing other means to make sure the comment could not have been interpreted as being about me, since a girl can't be too careful. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 04:44, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose I (briefly!) looked over the interaction on Sitush's talk page and don't see any reason for imposing an IBAN that will prevent Sitush from writing and moving an article on Carol Moore to mainspace. The way I see it, the baiting is mostly one way (was the notice that started the whole thing necessary for example?) and this would set a particularly bad precedent. Allowing someone to control who can or cannot write articles on themselves is not a good idea and that's what an IBAN would largely achieve. --regentspark (comment) 18:24, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

This IBAN discussion is not solely about the article. It's about their overall behavior. If you wish to comment on the article, check out this MfD. Perhaps Bishonen can add more about their behavior to avoid decisions based solely on the article. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Unfortunately it is fairly clear that the main effect of the IBAN will be disallowing Sitush from writing that article. Like I say above, it is a terrible idea to set a precedent where a negative interaction initiated by the subject of the article dictates who can or cannot write the article. --regentspark (comment) 18:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I neither support nor oppose the notion of an i-ban here, having not explored the history of the two users in detail, but I have to say that the notion of deciding to write a BLP about a person with whom you are actively exchanging vituperative words in project space strikes me as indicative of incredibly poor judgment. I would expect any experienced editor to be aware that writing about someone with whom you are in a dispute is rife with potential BLP issues. That Sitush apparently saw nothing wrong with his handling an intra-editor dispute this way makes me wonder whether, alongside this personality dispute, there are also issues with Sitush's general judgment about BLP policy. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:27, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• The fact that he's writing the BLP could be indicative of poor judgement but that judgement would need to be made when reading the article. As others have stated - there's no issue with the actual article itself. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 18:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, no. My point is that the questionable judgment is in starting the article in the first place, because either he was not aware of the many ways his (presumed) bias against someone he's fighting with could leak out into the text without him even noticing, or he did not care about the many ways said bias could leak out into the text. If the article turns out to not be a massive BLP violation, that's great, but it doesn't change my feeling of "What were you thinking to start it at all?" A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 18:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Is it simply a coincidence that there are now two active IBAN proposals involving Carol on this page? Eric Corbett 18:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Not really no, users can gang up on other users it has happened in the past here on wiki so I am not surprised. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  So who do you think is ganging up on whom in this instance, and why? Eric Corbett 18:48, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• I am not going to answer a loaded question and start naming names here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:55, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  So basically you're just making it up as you go along. Eric Corbett 19:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• No because I have seen it before here on Wikipedia. Just like real life it isn't always the case where there is one aggressor and one targeted. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - General animosity between the two is obvious. Sitush is quite aggressive toward Carolmooredc in his/her comments and the new "BLP" is hounding in my view. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

  Then your view is wrong, as so often in the recent past. Eric Corbett 18:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose; however, move the article to draft space so that anyone neutral can work on it. As User:Anne Delong said at the MfD though, However, I suspect that the number of editors who have not had negative interactions with Carol is declining by the day. Black Kite (talk) 18:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Anne Delong did not say that. Provide a diff or strike the comment. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a serious distortion of my comment at MfD. Is there an emoticon for "indignant"? —Anne Delong (talk) 19:12, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, Anne, if you didn't mean that; your comment does however read that way. I have struck my comment about you (although I stand by it in general). Black Kite (talk) 19:25, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Black Kite, I read my comment again and don't see your interpretation. I try hard to avoid sarcasm and subtle putdowns in my posts. If I'm against something I say so clearly. In any case, I have expanded the comment to avoid any further misunderstanding. —Anne Delong (talk) 20:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose and move to draft space per Black Kite, I fully understand why Carol is upset she has had a history with Sitush but unless it is actually Harassment there is nothing much that can be done. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support before this snowballs into arbcom case.--MONGO 19:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• weak oppose I'm very concerned about what is really starting to look like a psuedo-civil campaign to silence discussion in many quarters here. An interaction ban, especially given the comments focus on one user, would play into that as far as I'm concerned. Intothatdarkness 20:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Fluffernutter. Let's do a little thought experiment here, for those who read this page often. Imagine I created User:Demiurge1000/Eric Corbett for the purpose of starting to collect sources about Eric for the purpose of proving his notability (I'm not sure if that's easy or difficult or impossible, I haven't looked) and subsequently writing a mainspace article about him. Given the occasional disagreements Eric and I have had, do you think this would be a bad idea, a very bad idea, or just a really really profoundly stupid idea? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Support indef block I have now come to the conclusion this is simply not what the Wikipedia:Harassment says. It says Sitush should be immediately "blocked". I would love to start creating Wikipedia articles on editors I don't get along with, how fun......NOT.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support full two-way interaction ban. Both editors are engaging in hostility toward each other. Sitush is being provocative. Carol's response, while less extreme, is still antagonistic. Carol's argument that she needs to edit the draft is silly. If the draft survives MFD and is moved into mainspace, it becomes the property of the community, not of Sitush, and Carol can then edit it or AFD it. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:43, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose in favor of a 1-way ban imposed on Sitush. This is straight-up harassment and intimidation by one party. Tarc (talk) 21:47, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Tarc. Comments like this and this in light of this make it clear who is behaving horribly here, with Carol only reacting from my what I have seen. The only option other than a one-way interaction ban that I would consider acceptable would be a lengthy block of Sitush for harassment.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Since it seems Carol can support this I will support this if the "community" rejects the one-way interaction ban. It is better than nothing.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Tarc and The Devil's Advocate. Just three days ago Sitush called CMDC a prat at GGTF.[130] No one should have to choose between ignoring harassment or agreeing to an IBAN when you're harassed. Lightbreather (talk) 23:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see how IBAN is going to help anyone. There is some exhausted conversations, they can be seen elsewhere. But IBAN is not appropriate for a fresh feud. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support The purpose of an interaction ban is to help the encyclopedia by removing a distraction. There is no need to work out who started it or who is right/wrong—however it happened, the editors concerned are now locked in battle and it is unfair on them that it should continue. This is a no-fault iban to avoid an inevitable escalation with a possible result that an army of socks and misguided my-clan-is-better-than-your-clan editors have failed to pull off. If anyone wants exercise, try pig wrestling. Johnuniq (talk) 03:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose There is very little, if any, evidence of hounding. There is some evidence of incivility, but nothing too far beyond the norm. Most of the moderate incivility (like the 'prat' comment and 'idiot' comment) is connected with content disputes, never in isolation. The GGTF talk page is chock-full of far worse behaviour. I have very little experience with policy, but this seems a useless measure to solve the wrong problem. Kingsindian (talk) 11:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Having little experience with policy, maybe you don't know you should prove a point like claiming bad behavior on a wikiproject. I'm sure if he was following you around for a year with such nonsense you'd learn how to come to ANI with diffs real quick. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

It is true that I made the overly broad comment about the GGTF talk page without any evidence: I was trying to keep my reply brief: it was my opinion after simply reading the talk page, nothing more. But as someone said, "I'm not the only one": see the comments by Newyorkbrad here. Kingsindian (talk) 13:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. This needs to stop. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Far, far too much bad blood already, and this seems to be the simplest solution, if it is implemented. Carol is not innocent, but Sitush could certainly have been a little more circumspect, and starting a Bio at such a time was a bad decisiom. We all make made decisions, though, so nip it in the bud with an IBAN. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support I struck my oppose opinion above, these two editors clearly do not get along. I see evidence of disruption, and feel that it would be beneficial to have this ban in place. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:51, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Only a two way ban. I don't yet have criteria for a 1-way ban, but this wouldn't meet them if I did.--v/r - TP 03:45, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support A interaction ban from now to Christmas looks good enough to calm down emotions. Both parties are less than friendly towards each other. Birthday party invitations look out of the question. Keep them separated is enough in my opinion. A lock down of the draft article, including withdrawal of the MfD, for the same period, would be good. The Banner talk 14:27, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose any imposed sanction on Sitush, in that implies sanctionable misconduct. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 21:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. IBAN has destructive side apparently ignored/unseen/unappreciated by the imposers. It becomes an effective roving topic ban which isn't healthy or even consistent for best ideas in discussions impacting articles to be brought forward and heard. (For a sore throat the solution isn't surgical removal of the throat.) But the mob loves participation to be judge-jury when inconvenienced over any consideration re resultant health of articles, since that is more immediately rewarding emotionally and makes one feel "involved" and "contributing". Blech. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:39, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

@Ihardlythinkso: the concern you bring up is a valid one, but it seems to me that you are pointing out the flaws in this plan without providing an alternative. I don't think there are very many people here who believe an IBAN to be ideal; it does not address the source of the trouble, for one. But it seems the least among evils; if you believe otherwise, shouldn't you provide an alternative? Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:56, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Vanamonde93, don't get me started! 1st, your Q is (unintentionally) a trick Q since it presupposes action must be taken, just what kind. (I question that.) 2nd, the purpose of IBAN according to policy is to stop interactions between two users that are "disrupting the work of others". (I don't see any such claim here. I see only "I'm being harassed!" and "She's being harassed!" claims. That's a different policy, not IBAN. And if harassment is the case as deemed by any admin, then they can do some work and warn or revert and/or block as they see fit, w/o the destructive and draconian IBAN.) 3rd, as much as I don't usually agree with admin Chillum, he asked a worthwhile Q above that has not received any attention or discussion. (There is night & day difference between an indefinite [permanent] IBAN versus having a fixed duration.) For those looking for simplicity in solutions, adding a fixed duration to any IBAN makes it at least less objectionable in my view. 4th, for less simple solution (and outside the scope of venue here), I think the entire administration/enforcement system through admins and current policies s/b be scrapped in favor of whatever replacement system the top 10–12 content contributors elected by the community would come up with. (Which would by definition be a more progressive and healthy structure for the future of the encyclopedia. Why? They already know what the problems are and what the solutions are, and what is best for the development & maintenance of the encyclopedia. And they are too intelligent to get into unproductive scraps. They have already invested so much of themselves into the encyclopedia, they couldn't be destructive to it in any possible way. Such a beehive of intelligence/experience would work things out. But that amazing resource goes untapped in favor of the current archaic, mob-rule, inconsistent and even abusive admin system. [Go figure.]) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 09:47, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the disruption is fairly clear; two major contributors cannot get into a brawl without collateral damage across the 'pedia. Visit GGTF, for starters, or even here, where people from either "side" have been sucked into the dispute. I agree that currently the admins have less accountability than they should; but otherwise, I feel like you are barking up the wrong tree. What you call mob-like behavior is, IMO, the (fair) price to be paid for having a relatively democratic governing structure, where anybody who makes a policy bound argument will usually be taken seriously. Far better than a cabal. If that is not really the case here, it only speaks to the magnitude of the collateral damage. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:20, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support I held off judgement for a long time to see if the various actors would commit to moving in non-disruptive directions, but that hasn't happened, and it doesn't look like it's going to happen in the future voluntarily. Even if this was day one and we set aside all previous history, we would still have editors openly making plans for future metaphorical knife-fights. An IBAN shouldn't be punitive, it should be preventative. I see no other proposal but this on the table that is seeking to prevent further, easily predictable disruption to the project. Some of the earlier opposes were based on the idea that CMDCC shouldn't be sanctioned, but it looks like she now has volunteered for it. I don't think this continuing crusade is a healthy thing for Sitush, as an editor or as a person, no matter how much he may think it's justified. He seems to think he's the fire alarm to CMDCC's fire, without noticing how disruptive it would be to have a fire alarm that actively fed fires. These are flawed and easily provoked editors, and they are both wrong about things. The question is how to best avoid the obvious divisiveness in the future. No one has made a convincing argument that any voluntary disengagement is ever likely, let alone imminent; I've only seen arguments that the other side is wrong and should be stopped by all means. It is a kindness to all humans, them and us, to separate them somehow. __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:51, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

  It is a kindness to all humans, them and us, to separate them somehow. At the barrel of a gun (escalating blocks or site ban)?! Right. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:08, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

  Those consequences seem likely if there's no disengagement, voluntary or not. Can anyone honestly say "Yes" to these questions: These editors have come to stable peaceful terms that will prevent future disruption? These editors won't be engaged in proving each other wrong in a new venue in the immediate future, with bad blood all around? These editors will get there all by themselves? __ E L A Q U E A T E 00:34, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

  A fallacy in your logic is that "getting there" (i.e. peaceful coexistence) is faux and permanently preempted by an IBAN. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

  Are they finished with each other?__ E L A Q U E A T E 01:48, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

  I just want to say that her bio was closed as an attack, how do you go and explain that? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

  It is an irrelevance, really, now: done, dusted, and the "attack" rationale was a WP:IAR decision. You can't impose sanctions for punitive reasons. I've already explained what I intend to do and I think you need to take allegations of hounding etc with a pinch of salt, as per the criticism of some specific examples given a few days ago (below, somewhere, regarding WT:GGTF). I still think CMDC would pass our notability criteria, plenty of others also thought there was a chance (far more than took part in the prior AfDs), but - regardless - that article subject is not going to appear on Wikipedia any time soon because no-one who was involved in the MfD discussion can reasonable claim to be uninvolved with the subject now. Someone has asked for my sources off-wiki but they've not been given them and I've no idea who they are. I'm disengaging from CMDC voluntarily, with certain provisos as stated on my talk page. - Sitush (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I have requested a formal closure when the time is ripe. So it would be helpful for the admin if Sitush spells out what he means by disengagement and provisos here so the admin can make an accurate determination. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:33, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

(Indents are weird but I'm not touching them). See [131]. In relation to which, this may be pertinent: TParis was trying to broker something despite their underlying opinion, which does them much credit, I think. - Sitush (talk) 15:52, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Absent a separate section let me note: RE: Discussion of defacto voluntary interaction ban???[added question marks later in case I misunderstood] I'll note that the diffs above aren't very helpful since they represent a huge thread with many distractions. I believe a proposed solution written succinctly at my talk page helps: Sitush may agree to a two way interaction ban provided that any Arbcom action including filing, commenting on, enforcement, clarifications, ect are exempted. Such an iBan would include talking about each other, commenting to each other, writing articles about each other, reverting anothers edits, and commenting on ANI cases involving one another. Would you agree to those terms if he did?--v/r - [[User:TParis|T]][[User_talk:TParis|P]] 15:45, 18 September 2014 (UTC)'' Does that sound like what we are talking about? (Later note: Yes, sounds good to me personally.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think any closer would be assisted by your not-very-subtle attempt to parse Sitush's comment into acceptance of a one-way IBAN. It is what it is and the closer can read as much as the rest of us can. DeCausa (talk) 20:10, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

[Later note: Paris clearly talks about "each other", not just Sitush.] If you can figure out what he wants from those two diffs, you are much smarter than me. I was just going by the last thing I heard from Tom Paris. So leave it up to the admins. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:15, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support per SlimVirgin. Sitush and I go way back, so I suppose I'm not all that impartial here (and if I speak out here no one will expect me to close this, so that's good). But I think that draft was not a good idea, and without speculating on who caused what, an IBAN would have prevented that from coming into existence. I foresee further topic restrictions in the future for Sitush's counterpart here, and the only thing that holds me back (and has held me back) is that speaking out in support of an IBAN is taken as a sign that, really, one party has won. But the project will survive even if Sitush cannot defend us from this one editor, if we need defending, and it will remove at least one source of disruption. Drmies (talk) 01:58, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I have no reason to doubt that Sitush will keep to what he has posted on his user page but CMdc just cannot stop herself even though she has been given some very good advice. [132] J3Mrs (talk) 08:21, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Opening (or proposing to open) an article on wikipedia about someone you have a conflict with on wikipedia is just weird and creepy. What good can come of it? I have no interest in the history between these two editors, I'm judging only by Sitush's actions, which to me seem highly inappropriate. MaxBrowne (talk) 13:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose First - this s a draconian solution for what appears to be a common problem. Thus it won't work. Second, the idea of a "1 way ban" has been shown to basically never work in practice, and such Ibans made generally end up being 2 way. Third, I suggest that all such Ibans in future be limited in duration, as a preventative sanction only, else they too often become games to people opposing one editor or the other. Collect (talk) 12:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You write this is a "common problem" and I agree; editors getting peeved at others and following them around around, reverting their talk page comments and casting aspersion upon them. (The bio thing obviously being uncommon). The interaction ban was not my idea. So just for those who have forgotten other options, the common thing to do is first ask for an admin to ask them to stop. (Note to self: better late than never start figuring out who the helpful admins are.) If that doesn't work, come here, and ask for help: a warning or short block might result and hopefully the individual would get the point and cut it out. Because of the ongoing MfD on the bio, I wasn't going to bring an ANI myself. And after the MfD was successful I would have given a grace period to see if the behavior stopped. That's the process I would follow in the future, should the editor in question return. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support a 2-way IBAN because a one-way IBAN on CMDC doesn't appear to be an option on offer at the moment. I wasn't goint to bother to post to this thread but this and this today is the final straw. Sitush has been effectively gone for 4 or 5 days - there's nothing coming from him. Not only does she seem unable to drop it but this is shoe-horning her WP:BATTLE pointlessly. DeCausa (talk) 16:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Propose one-way interaction ban on Carol Moore (the article)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the article survive the Miscellaneous for Deletion process, I would need to be able to comment on it and on any Sitush edits - and of course report them to BLPN, etc. I don't want to have to run to WMF every day because and Admin thought I should be prevented from commenting on a BLP that has been put together solely to harass me and waste my time. The present poorly sourced and down right silly stuff would not be taken seriously in any real bio. I have lots of WP:RS and material from the last article --'Washington City Paper, Los Angeles Times, Reason Magazine, The Washington Post, Associated Press, Philadelphia Inquirer -- that haven't been used or used properly. (Of course that article got AfD.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Opppose You're not going to have your cake and eat it too. Barak Obama doesn't get to dictate what goes in his article, nor will you. If you're notable, you're notable and an article will be created. You're welcome to discuss potential changes and such on any such talk page of any article that you have a COI in - but you don't get to dictate what goes in it. Further, I would need to be able to comment on it and on any Sitush edits.. just sounds like you're wanting the ability to continue to stalk his edits and WikiHound him. Cut it out Carol! Drop the stick and stop being so damn dramatic! Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 19:51, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Actually I read that as "I would need to be able to comment on it and on any Sitush edits to it", which seems entirely reasonable, and indeed is recommended as the first step in Wikipedia:Contact us - Subjects. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Weak oppose as there has been significant back-and-forth between the two editors. While the interaction may be lopsided, it's not one-way to begin with and thus a one-way ban does not seem appropriate here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:15, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment I do find it odd that Carolmooredc should be supplying references for an article she want deleting. J3Mrs (talk) 20:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Just because I want it deleted, doesn't mean I'll get it deleted. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Question - Is Carol requesting a one-way interaction ban, or a topic ban on Sitush on the article? As noted above, Carol has no need to edit the draft. If the draft is moved into article (main) space, it becomes the property of the community and is not subject to the IBAN. If the article survives the MFD and survives the AFD, it would be reasonable to impose a topic-ban on Sitush from the article, but the time to decide that is if the article survives the MDF. As it is, I don't know what she is asking. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:47, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I actually lost track myself. I knew I couldn't edit, but didn't want to be insulted when I posted refs or made comments on the article, hoping that that would be the only place I'd run into Sitush if there was an interaction ban. It looks like the article will be MfD'd both because of numbers and the obvious rationale. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

To further answer Robert's question and to move my comments out of place I was advised it was inappropriate:

Comment I have no desire to have anything to do with him and never have had. This is the Interaction July 2013-September 2014. This is just from July 2014-Sept 2014. It’s mostly him following me to say nasty things. Besides the nasty "Disruption of Wikiproject" ANI comments linked above in my "Concerns" section, most recently:

• He kept reverting my strike of an admitted erroneous talk page statement and I had to go to the Wikiproject Disruption closer ScottyWong to get him to stop.
• Here calls me “idiot.”
• Pops up to object (yet again) to my opening thread; guess I need his permission?
• Admits can’t stay away from a thread (where he bashes me again)
• Says I’m spewing verbal diarrhea for quoting his opposition to the gender gap task force in a relevant forum
• Follows typical BLPN notice of relevant RSN discussion to accuse me of forum shopping.
• [Added later, missed a big one] - at this diff. As an opponent of the task force, Sitush writes on its talk page: “This task force, with you effectively in charge, is a practically fascist regime at present.” and calls me a “goading prat.”

I have no desire to interact with him. Judging from the Gender Gap task force, they can all take care of themselves there if he starts anything and I can just happily ignore his specific comments, though I might comment on any general principles should others get into them. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment It is a draft, Carol, You know that, you've been told that. A work in progress. Yet again, you are ignoring what others have said when, presumably, it does not suit your purpose to do otherwise. I've already explained that there are thousands of mentions of you, including ones in the past AfDs. I spent most of yesterday researching and, of course, have been doing so on and off for a long time: I tend not to rush into articles that I create and I tend to finesse them, often actively inviting others to help me out. I've invited you to help me out, actually, but you seem studiously to have ignored that, making accusations that there are inaccuracies but not actually providing any examples when asked. You also seem to have ignored the several instances in the last day or so where you have falsely accused me and/or patently misrepresented your own history here on WP. I urge people to read the thread on my talk page, the MfD and the (far from complete) draft itself. And to have faith in Wikipedia's processes of continuous article development involving the entire community. This stinks, it really does. - Sitush (talk) 00:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: Interaction bans seldom do any good. Either sanction poor behavior or slug it out somewhere. That said, the "article draft" needs to be speedily deleted; Sitush, you should know better; you are making an attack page, no matter how neutral it looks, CMDC is not a person who is going to pass WP:GNG. Montanabw^(talk) 05:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Pending the AfD outcome this discussion could be moot. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:48, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Eric Corbett

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I think a handful of editors have just about had enough here. Most recently these edits here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force#Notice of relevant discussion elsewhere. There is no way that his comments I can see as being justified towards Carol. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is justified either. In the past there have been poor results in attempting to respond to this users lack of civility. Chillum Need help? Type {{ping|Chillum}} 20:05, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Same. Last ANI turned out to nothing but Eric's been given more WP:ROPE and just keeps adding to the pile of examples of incivility and harassment. Frankly I'd like to see a topic ban and an IBAN. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:07, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

It is amazing how editors who consider themselves to be civil can only see incivility in others. I consider that section to be about forum shopping and thought the question asked was valid and the answers less so. J3Mrs (talk) 20:10, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Intothatdarkness 20:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The only thing that is going to come out of this subsection is another round of "who wants to lose the mop wheel warring over blocking Eric". Unless there is very very strong evidence and consensus, I suggest we nip this in the bud before it just causes another wiki-wide drama explosion. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:16, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Probably so, but there's mounting evidence that Eric is "not here" vis-a-vis the GGTF project. However an IBAN might be more easily sustained. Just wish the arbcom would step in and get this over with. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:22, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

• Corbett is just being Corbett and Carol is being Carol. CMDC does a good job of baiting Corbett and vice versa. They both just need to ignore each other or else go snipe at each other in someone's sandbox or user talk, and not any of the project or article pages. Before we start talking about banning anyone, I think we need to just ignore them both and not let them drag in the rest of us. Montanabw^(talk) 20:20, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not go out of my wait to disrupt projects and articles he's involved with. It's not my fault if my opinions drive him crazy. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

As it disrupts the entire project, that's kinda hard. An IBAN would solve it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:22, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Only if it's applied to both of them. Intothatdarkness 20:29, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

@Intothatdarkness: Though Eric is the more uncivil party, attacking just about anyone and everyone he dislikes (just look above at his comments throughout this ANI), a two-way ban is fine by me. If someone doesn't start a discussion on it by this evening, I'll consider starting my own. Getting sick of this nonsense. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:33, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

That and his attitude towards ANI even, asking if I brought his name over to "Win a bet" [133] - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Coming here/running to mummy is not always a good idea unless you want generate drama. J3Mrs (talk) 20:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

There has already been drama, the fact though is that there are some editors here to edit and others who go out of their way to get to others per WP:NOTHERE. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Having read the linked section, I see a personal attack directed at Eric, but no personal attacks issues by Eric. I asked on your talk page why you were opening this section. I'm guessing it isn't to ask for sanctions against those attacking Eric, but if not, why not?--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:57, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"Do you ever actually work on articles, or do you consider that to be somehow beneath you?" is a personal attack. True, for Eric, it is rather mild (!). But it is still unpleasant to be the target of. --GRuban (talk) 21:01, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sitush interaction ban

Sitush is banned from initiating any interactions with CarolmooreDC.

• Support as proposer. Phrased to neatly avoid the usual concern about one-way interaction bans as Sitush has to initiate the interaction. If Carol goes after him without any form of provocation then the restriction does not apply.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:25, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Support indef block - Policy is clear. This is a blockable offense and nothing anyone has stated has demonstrated this was accidental. Point taken...but for the moment I am supporting both. Although it makes far more sense for this ban than both if one is the instigator and the other mostly the victim (although I hate that term "victim").--Mark Miller (talk) 23:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Lightbreather (talk) 23:57, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - Sitush has done absolutely nothing wrong here. He posted on his talk page that he was going to check out her website, presumably for research for the article that he is creating. His editing skills have been called into question, his ability to remain neutral has been called into question, and his integrity. So much bad faith has been flung at Sitush, all because @Carolmooredc: felt threatened and attacked by a page that has previously existed that she has edited. She's claimed to have been outed, however, that's already been rebuked. The common denominator here is Carol - not Sitush. Anyone who's reasonable can see that the actual article in question is A) in userspace and B) BLP compliant. Everyone needs to chill out and stop making this a bigger deal than it actually is. So much time and server space has been used up that I almost think Carol needs a block. But I'm sure someone else will bring that up later. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 00:09, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Is it really necessary to say that anyone that doesn't see this the same way is not reasonable? Sitush linked an off wiki site pertaining to another editor purposely to his talk page and that was not OK. His reasoning for the "research" is questionable and the entire situation is not acceptable.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support, obviously necessary and the sooner the better. This is way out of hand now. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support Based on replies from others, what Sitush is doing is not ok. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support as a check on harassment now that the question has been answered. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose in the strongest form We are not going to go ban everyone Carol can't get along with. This is not Wikipedia according to Carol. If Carol is having difficulty with so many people, eyes need to be on what she is contributing to these interactions.--v/r - TP 02:33, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• We already had a discussion about Carol's actions here, the consensus was that she had done no wrongdoing, unless you want to make a topic here and show some diffs that Carol is at fault. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, I didn't see the policy where I had to follow the crowd and !vote accordingly. If you please point me toward that policy, I'll correct my vote ASAP. In fact, now that I think about it, why would we even need this vote if editors are not allowed to dissent? I mean, that's essentially what your argument comes down to.--v/r - TP 03:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• "eyes need to be on what she is contributing to these interactions" those were your words, and I just asked you to provide these "interactions". yes consensus is not binding and can change. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:17, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• [134][135][136]. Carolmooredc is more wiki-litigious than Apple and nearly every complaint has boomeranged on her until now. I don't know why memories are so short on ANI these days.--v/r - TP 03:54, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Most of those were not filed by Carol and all but one of those that were concerned the Austrian economics dispute, which was settled in an arbitration case. A recent case, concerning the Gender Gap Task Force was filed by her over a week ago and got bumped up to a still-open arbitration request. This ANI case and the one that resulted in Specifico's sanction, were filed by someone other than Carol in response to actions those editors took elsewhere that prompted concern from other editors.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Just because someone is repeatedly the subject of attacks does not mean that person is doing something wrong to bring on the attacks. No one has identified anything Carol has done to provoke or instigate Sitush beyond responding during arguments he initiates with her. His actions appear to be retaliation for the sanction against SPECIFICO imposed in a discussion where he publicly expressed the intent to start following Carol around.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 02:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Your right, Sitush hasn't done anything wrong and the repeated attackful ANI complaints that CarolmooreDC has brought don't equate to wrongdoing on any of her victim's parts.--v/r - TP 03:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• At least part of the reason for Carol's continued presence on these boards is that she is willing to be publicly involved in Gender Gap project, and as a result has become a lightning rod for anyone with a woman-hating axe to grind. The project was started with the objective of making Wikipedia feel more friendly and welcoming for women. Consider some of Sitush's statements there:

• [137] [Edit summary] stop being an idiot
• [138] ...What a bloody joke. This task force, with you effectively in charge, is a practically fascist regime at present. Why not comment on the substance of the thread instead of acting like a goading prat?
• [139] [edit summary] I've lost track of how many times CMDC has had talk page etiquette explained to her

(not sure what a "prat" is, but pretty sure it's not friendly and welcoming.) —Neotarf (talk) 03:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure that's accurate. Carol joined mid 2013. These issues date back to 2011 per my links above.--v/r - TP 04:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Your links show nothing going back to 2011. They show she had ongoing issues with Specifico from other editing areas, which was discussed to death in the recent ANI, which was not initiated by her. They show she made comments on a thread about civility in the Palestine/Israel topic area in 2012. They do not show she was responsible for any incivility in P/I discussions. She may very well be scarier than Darth Vader, but your links don't show that. You may recall that Sitush's recent comments about gender on Jimbo's talk page and elsewhere. —Neotarf (talk) 05:33, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not defending Sitush. Nor am I attacking Carol. I'm here to oppose a Iban. Like before, though, I would support a 2-way ban.--v/r - TP 05:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanction on Sitush for now. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support with the caveat that either the "BLP" Sitush started on Carol in his user space is immediately removed, or that it be moved to a more neutral space and Carol is allowed to comment on it. Carol has already requested Sitush to stay off her talk page, but this renewed interest on the part of Sitush appears to be related to his public opposition to the Gender Gap project, where Carol is an active participant, which he now characterizes as a practically fascist regime.[140] —Neotarf (talk) 03:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Carol has consistently made misrepresentations pretty much everywhere. Is everyone who challenges her going to be run through the same gauntlet? Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 04:56, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: The "article draft" on CMDC needs to be speedily deleted. Other than that, I disfavor interaction bans in general because they seldom solve anything, either impose temporary blocks on the miscreants (both perhaps) for specific behavior that is a problem for the victim, or else just let them slug it out somewhere. The way I see it, both parties are each clueless about certain aspects of these issues and I see no way this would end well. Montanabw^(talk) 05:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: That there is bad blood between the two users is indubitable. However, I see no evidence to justify this one-way sanction. The whole GGTF talk page is filled with incivility and shouting. I should add that I have little interaction with either user, though slightly more with Sitush. In all cases, he was civil and reasonable, even when we disagreed. Also, I have little experience in these things, so take my opinion with a truckload of salt. Kingsindian (talk) 06:42, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose per TP's "Sitush hasn't done anything wrong and the repeated attackful ANI complaints that CarolmooreDC has brought don't equate to wrongdoing on any of her victim's parts", "We are not going to ban everyone Carol can't get along with . . . if Carol is having difficulty with so many people, eyes need to be on what she is contributing to these interactions", and "[she] is more wiki-litigious than Apple..."; TKOP's "Carol has consistently made misrepresentations pretty much everywhere"; and Dusti's "Sitush has done absolutely nothing wrong here." Writegeist (talk) 09:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

So where are the diffs, Writegeist? Do you always cast aspersions without them? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:51, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose per TP. The fact that Neotarf appears to believe that any disagreement with CMDC is because she "...has become a lightning rod for anyone with a woman-hating axe to grind." is possibly (a) the biggest load of facile bollocks I've ever read on Wikipedia, and (b) effectively a personal attack on anyone who doesn't agree with her. Frankly, the GGTF would function a lot better if its page wasn't persistently spammed and canvassed with Carol's latest pet peeve of the day; perhaps it could actually get on with doing what it was designed to do, rather that what Carol wants it to do. Black Kite (talk) 11:24, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Where are the diffs, Black Kite, about my latest pet peeve of the day or whatever. Unless you mean complaining that editors opposed to the project keep posting insulting and mocking and harping questions and comments? Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Or, in alternative language, "here's some more canvassing to link you to an ANI I started about someone who disagrees with me". Have you not noticed that practically every section started by you is similar to that? I don't see that happening with SlimVirgin, or Montanabw, or indeed anyone else on the GGTF page. Why is that, do you think? Black Kite (talk) 13:42, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

In case no one has noticed, the gender gap talk page is now dominated by users who oppose the existence of such a project. The project is dead. I have taken it off my watch list and I recommend that everyone else do the same. —Neotarf (talk) 13:06, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanction on Sitush. Carrite (talk) 12:04, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per reasons above. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 12:14, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per TP, who has it exactly right. JohnCD (talk) 12:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per TP Black Kite and Carrite. J3Mrs (talk) 12:45, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Adding I think Sitush will keep to what he has posted on his user page but CMdc just cannot stop herself even though she has been given some very good advice. [141] J3Mrs (talk) 23:03, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I find this thread fairly funny because in the SPECIFICO thread, we had people saying Carolmooredc's editing must have problems given the number of complaints and the editor that immediately came to mind was Sitush who's since I spend an unhealthy amount of time at ANI, name I'm even more familiar with (particularly considering the joking Sitush complaint noticeboard). There may me differences here, in particular my impression is a lot of the people complaining about Sitush are new editors. Anyway I think this emphasises a point people have sort of made above even if they are countering each other with it. The existance of a lot of complaints is not itself definite evidence of problems with an editor's behaviour only that it may be worth looking in to. And if evidence of problematic behaviour from one editor is shown, and none from another editor (I'm not saying this is the case here), we should follow the evidence not the number of complaints. Nil Einne (talk) 15:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per comments above. Cassianto^talk 15:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I have yet to see any compelling reasons to place any editing restrictions on Sitush. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 19:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose any one way sanction Having been a talk page stalker of Sitush for a while, I saw most of this drama, and suffice to say the fault is most certainly not limited to one party. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:27, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose any one way sanction per the direct answer to my question as posed to Carol. I sympathize but this is surely a two way street here.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:07, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - CMDC has narrowly avoided sanctions here so many times it's just not funny any more and this thread is just a further entrenchment of CMDC's "victim status". The current hyper-sensitivity with regard to gender issues has allowed editors to be topic-banned or interaction-banned on the flimsiest of evidence; all of them with previous or ongoing disputes with CMDC. At some point we need to take a step back and consider the common denominator in all of these disputes. St★lwart¹¹¹ 23:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support  This is the editor who wrote the article that was deleted at MfD.  Unscintillating (talk) 17:17, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose First - this s a draconian solution for what appears to be a common problem. Thus it won't work. Second, the idea of a "1 way ban" has been shown to basically never work in practice, and such Ibans made generally end up being 2 way. Third, I suggest that all such Ibans in future be limited in duration, as a preventative sanction only, else they too often become games to people opposing one editor or the other. Collect (talk) 12:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose One-way interaction bans are inherently unfair: A can talk about B, but B can't talk about A. No. Also, I agree with Collect that IBANs should be for a limited duration. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:31, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per TP and Black Kite as well as Collect's comment about 1-way bans and limited duration. Dougweller (talk) 15:17, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as per TParis. - ^theWOLFchild 08:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

ArbCom

I've been out working and am just back home. I'm not agreeing to any IBAN because there is an obvious pile-on here and we've only just been through one. Of the two of us, I'm not the person who keeps getting involved in complicated ANI disputes etc - mine tend to be very one-sided and they are so because I comply with policy. I'm tired and I'm off to bed but as far as I am concerned, this continual hassle needs an ArbCom case. I'm quite happy to submit myself to scrutiny by them but not to submit to this lynch-mob. My reputation for research and for neutrality in article writing is way, way, better than it is for many others. I'll say more tomorrow, elucidating in particular on why this kneejerk reaction (not Bish, but the pile-on) is actually in itself evidence that too many people here have no faith in policy-compliant writing and far too much faith in the power of numbers. And, for the record, I do not "hate" CMDC as someone has said either here or at the MfD (can't be bothered checking right now). She frustrates me sometimes but generally I avoid her and, to be honest, the only person I've ever hated in my adult life has long since moved on and had nothing to do with Wikipedia. - Sitush (talk) 23:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

This ain't going nowhere. Discuss the ins and outs of article writing elsewhere, please. Drmies (talk) 02:14, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
... as far as you know. Btw, creating a BLP about someone is not a great way of avoiding them. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:50, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Sitush, your "article" about CMDC pretty much puts you in a bad light. I suggest you just leave her alone; you come across as someone who can't sort out legitimate gender issues from drama-mongering and I can't tell if that is sincere ignorance on your part or if you are baiting CMDC on purpose. So just agree to have that article draft deleted and drop the stick. Montanabw(talk) 05:18, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Gender issues have nothing to do with the BLP. - Sitush (talk) 08:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Let's face it, this IBAN proposal would not have happened if the draft had not been created. This is, then, really all about that draft and such fundamental encyclopedic issues as notability, POV etc. Many people are not reading what has gone on here. For example, with regard to the draft, Carolmooredc has made a series of accusations but, as is common with her, has failed either to provide evidence to support them or has been shown to be wrong. She has also run around the boards like a headless chicken, trying to find ways to shut things down. That is what she does and that is why an ArbCom case is necessary. First, she wanted the draft gone, then when the initial views suggested that wouldn't happen, she reversed her stance. Then, when yet more views came in that favoured removal, she reversed it again. She plays this game, time and again but only selectively quotes in diffs when an issue re-arises, skewing the story eg: in this series of claims. The draft is neutral, there have been plenty of offers for her involvement in working on it {eg: in the only section at User_talk:Sitush/Carol_Moore) and the claims that she is not notable seem to have come without people doing much research and without giving the draft a chance to develop (the prior AfDs were split). It has also been said - again, prior to this thread opening - that the thing can be worked upon by anyone even though it is in my userspace. I have no problem with it being moved into the Draft space, although that had not crossed my mind prior to this thread. There has been a massive failure to AGF and a massive assumption about where this thing is going. There seems also to be a massive lack of faith in the communitiy's abilities to improve an article and, frankly, a substantial piling-on. It is noticeable that newcomers to this farrago, such as Peridon and Writegeist, seem to have no problem with it but those who have long supported Carolmooredc do have a problem with it. The notion that a BLP cannot be written about her because of outing issues would in fact prevent us from writing BLPs about any Wikipedian. An IBAN in any form would represent, yet again, the stifling of debate and would favour Carolmooredc even if two-way. I do not in fact follow her round (despite her usual claims of hounding) and I don't even read a tremendous amount of what she writes because I've got better things to do, such as improving the mainspace directly. The IBAN etc proposals above are the result of the draft and of little else, given that my involvement with her is actually pretty minimal. While I was agreeing with her - ca. the Austrian Economics thing - she was happy enough but as soon as we disagreed with something in that case, the shutters came down. From my limited experience of her, she never seems to show any willingness to collaborate unless things are going her way: the grudge is there and she repeatedly drags it up, whatever it may be. We've got the wrong target here and her behaviour will be going to ArbCom, IBAN or no IBAN. - Sitush (talk) 08:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Sitush states that Carol Moore's behavior will be going to ArbCom, IBAN or no IBAN. Does he mean that he requests that her behavior go to ArbCom, or does he mean that he has some mechanism for making her behavior go to ArbCom? I suspect that he is not writing as clearly as he says that he does, and that he only means that her behavior should go to ArbCom. If he has some permitted mechanism for forcing her behavior to go to ArbCom, that would be interesting. I think that he does have a non-permitted mechanism for forcing her and his behavior to go to ArbCom, which is to continue a campaign of harassment until ArbCom intervention becomes necessary; I hope that he does not. I think that his rage is causing him to write sloppily, and would ask that he take a complete break from Wikipedia for a few days. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Sitush thinks he can write a bio with my self-published bio and a few crappy diffs. He says he doesn't need the ones from Washington City Paper, Los Angeles Times, Reason Magazine, The Washington Post, Associated Press, Philadelphia Inquirer . And the bio got rejected with them last times. It's a joke. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:56, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Oh, another misrepresentation from you? Please show me the diff where I said I didn't need that stuff. The closest I can find is this, which explains the approach that I was taking. - Sitush (talk) 13:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Where your wrote: Why? I am pretty well known for being a good researcher and there is no point in starting from a base that was rejected. A clean slate seems like a better place to begin although, yes, I may ask someone to provide a copy of the old version at some stage, just as a cross-check. In other words, I don't need credible refs, when I can find crappy ones and leave this on my talk page for months to bug you. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) That's from the diff I gave. You've misunderstood it. FWIW, I don't have access to newspapers.com (Washington Post is there, for example) and cannot see full articles, although I'm aware of them. I was going to pay for a month's sub and have the email from them here if anyone cares to doubt me. I've also asked you for input at the talk page of the draft, given you claim that it is full of inaccuracies etc. You've not responded. Please don't anyone here think that I'm not trying to collaborate etc. - Sitush (talk) 13:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC) In my experience some editors who think they have enough editor/Admin friends who will cover their asses to pull stunts and push buttons that they are never sanctioned for at ANI and eventually these things have to go to ArbCom where they work to get the people they opposed sanctioned, with lots of foul accusations and an occassional diff. Perhaps the purpose of this bio WAS to get me so pissed off that it would lead to MfD and ANIs that would push ArbCom to reconsider the case. They were about to decline it, but now they are thinking twice. This is insanity. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC) [Later clarification: In my Humble Opinion] Sitush just admitted here at ANI request that: Carolmooredc, re: this. You've misunderstood me, again. I'm looking at filing a case about your behaviour generally ...I'm not sure whether ArbCom would prefer to roll all this up or not but my intention was a separate case, which will inevitably also put me and numerous other people under the spotlight. - So he wants to push that to Arbitration using the Biography? Aren't there several lesser venues? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Sheesh. Yes, prepare an ArbCom case about your behaviour, not "push ArbCom to reconsider the case", which seems to be a reference to this open request. Your are making massive assumptions and conflations, as I think you are doing here also (Dougweller's page is on my watchlist). As for the editor/Admin friends who will cover their asses, I'm honoured to consider Bishonen among my wikifriends. And they brought me here. I bear no grudges for them doing so. - Sitush (talk) 16:19, 17 September 2014 (UTC) So Sitush is admitting you wrote the bio to start a brouhaha that would make ArbCom take the case? Cause that is what it looks like. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:34, 17 September 2014 (UTC) That is not what I admitted to. And turning your question here into a statement at the MfD is extremely misguided, in my opinion. Not atypical of your modus operandi, but misguided nonetheless. - Sitush (talk) 16:38, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Clarified with In My Humble Opinion, with two diffs. here. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:14, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Harassment, immediate block is called for

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This seems pretty clear. Carol did not disclose any information on Wikipedia and Sitush attempted to out the editor. This requires an immediate block. This was not accidental and Carol using her real name is no excuse for publishing opposing "research". Opposing can be anything from opposing edits...to opposing the editor. Clear case.

• Block per our policy: Wikipedia:Harassment. Warnings seem good enough for this situation. As complicated as it may seem...it is a lot simpler when you look deeper. Carol did out herself, but requested content that was previously posted and then removed not be brought up on Wikipedia. Sitush posted the off Wiki content to his talk page. She requested Sitush remove it and the editor refused and began creating an article about her.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Mark is intentionally misreading WP:OUTING after I've explained to him what the policy says regarding editors editing under their real name. The policy says "The fact that a person either has posted personal information or edits under their own name, making them easily identifiable through online searches, is not an excuse for "opposition research". Dredging up their off line opinions to be used to repeatedly challenge their edits can be a form of harassment, just as doing so regarding their past edits on other Wikipedia articles may be. However, if individuals have identified themselves without redacting or having it oversighted, such information can be used for discussions of conflict of interest (COI) in appropriate forums.". Carol Moore has made her identity known not only with her real name but also identifying herself as an anti-war activist. Sitush has not used this information to challenge her outside of a COI complaint and so it is compliant with WP:OUTING. I explained this quote to Mark, Mark seems to think that despite the policy explicitly stating different rules for editors who identify themselves, the policy for editors editing with a psuedonym apply.--v/r - TP 06:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Also, Mark's interpretation would allow any living person to avoid having an article created about them simply by registering an account.--v/r - TP 06:40, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Carolmooredc posted her website in this edit (admin only) and per WP:OUTING, because she never had it redacted or oversighted, it is available on-wiki. Sitush's edit here cannot be outing because she posted it herself and never had it oversighted.--v/r - TP 06:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
      • • I can't access that diff, so it looks like it *has* been oversighted. —Neotarf (talk) 12:57, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Far as I can tell from the user rights log, you're not an administrator so I'm not sure why you expect to see it. Nil Einne (talk) 13:53, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
            • So if non-admin can't see it, how is a non-admin supposed to know it is there, in order to request deletion? —Neotarf (talk) 15:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
              • How does she know the edit she made exists? I assume she doesn't have multiple personality disorder, that's how.--v/r - TP 19:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
      • Intentionally? No, but clearly this has now begun to piss you off if you are going to start with such claims. Well....so much for assuming good faith. Oh well. I still hold TP in high regard. Sorry, but this has gotten out of hand and my respect for Wikipedia in handling these situations has dropped, but....that is the way the ball bounces I guess. I have done all I intend to do on this subject. This is in the hands of the community but at no time have I accused TParis of intentionally doing anything wrong. I truly believe they feel as strongly about this as I do and we are both unconnected to either editor as far as I know, but if I am to become the new target...there is no since in my continuing this.--Mark Miller (talk) 07:06, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
        • Clearly, the community cannot handle the simplest of issues, such as admins edit warring or the creation of attack pages. For most rational people, the decision is obvious: block the admin and delete the attack page. But this is not a rational website. Viriditas (talk) 07:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Shows how much research you've done, Viriditas. I'm not an admin. This is an example of the sort of kneejerk reaction that is going on here: people are passing judgement based on hearts, not heads. - Sitush (talk) 08:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
            • You've made a mistake. My comments weren't about you, they were about an actual admin who has been edit warring, and I was comparing two different situations. I know perfectly well you aren't an admin. If there's a kneejerk reaction here, it's your own. Viriditas (talk) 09:09, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
              • I see, sorry. That misunderstanding would probably not have happened if you had provided diffs. - Sitush (talk) 10:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
                • There's a something a little off about TP's analysis. He quotes WP:OUTING about the admissibility of off-wiki material in a COI complaint context, but Sitush was using the threat of exposing more off-wiki material in general conversation. Carol, piss off and enjoy your nap. One day, I'll post the link to your website on WP and then everyone will understand.[142]. Regardless of motives, there's nothing that indicates that it is specifically a COI concern where he says "Piss off", and I sincerely doubt Tarc's talk page can be considered a "suitable forum" for COI complaints. Saying "I'll post the link" makes it sound like he assumed it wasn't considered generally "on-wiki" (regardless of whether admin-only-access can technically be considered that way). It may be an academic point now, but it's arguable about whether WP:OUTING is satisfied here.__ E L A Q U E A T E 18:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Time to close – Sitush made a mistake in creating the draft article. It had some WP:POTENTIAL, and may have some merit as an Ideological Turing Test given its' NPOV. But Sitush would have been better advised to ask for collaboration in drafting it. Given the response to this ANI, it is clear that there is a concern in the community about this interaction as a disruptive influence regardless of which editor is right or wrong. With these thoughts in mind, I recommend giving a warning to Sitush to avoid interaction with CMDC and strongly warn to avoid making any comments that are not clearly in the top two tiers of Stay in the top three sections of this pyramid. – S. Rich (talk) 07:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed.--Mark Miller (talk) 08:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I have mentioned collaboration. Another person who has not done the research? - Sitush (talk) 08:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Agree time to close - now that Mark Miller, the editor arguing most strongly for a block, has agreed, then strong warnings should be enough. To both parties. Dougweller (talk) 08:24, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Doug weller: It may not have been made clear that I posted my website link in 2007-2008. Maybe in 2009 someone accused me of "self promotion" so I took it down. I think I said that explicitly in the Sitush talk page conversation after my harassment notice.

The issue is, is it ok for Sitush to: follow me to various noticeboards and a few article talk pages to cast aspersions for more than a year, to do so at the Gender Gap task force after he already stated he thought it should be closed down, to keep reverting my strike of an admitted erroneous talk page statement until I have to get an admin to get him to stop, to call me and “idiot”, to 7 or 8 times harass me cause I started a subsection in a lengthy thread, to say I’m spewing verbal diarrhea for quoting his opposition to the gender gap task force in a relevant forum, to harass me claiming a typical BLPN notice of relevant RSN discussion is forum shopping, to write at the task force page “This task force, with you effectively in charge, is a practically fascist regime at present.” and calls me a “goading prat.” I just want to know if those are Doug Weller's standards of proper behavior. Would that be proper behavior for Carol Moore? There isn't a double standard, is there? Have I been accused of anything as bad as that? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

As I said, warnings to both parties. If I had any doubt, which I didn't, your post to my talk page confirmed it. Dougweller (talk) 18:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

[Insert: Months of harassment will mar one's judgement. What was I thinking? In any case, I'd happily take the two way interaction ban. Of course, Sitush can't control himself so if the warning is strict enough he'll quickly go into violation. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:12, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

If you're willing to do a 2-way ban, I could talk to Sitush about volunteering for it too and we can impose it based on you two agreeing to it. Would you like me to go talk to him?--v/r - TP 19:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

[Insert: I'm all for it. Until this recent incident he was far less annoying than SPECIFICO and hopefully won't be following to me various article spaces since I sure would like to feel free to edit again without constant reverts and criticism. And I'll be happy to ignore him if we run into each other at Jimbo's talk page. ;-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:21, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I've reached out to him already. I'll see if I can persuade him that this will benefit both of you by reducing drama and stress.--v/r - TP 22:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't followed you anywhere, Carolmooredc. I explained that to you on my talk page on 15 Sep but still you persist in making the allegation. Your editor interaction utility diff way, way above would be more useful if you could show that my interaction with you was exceptional. However, I doubt that it is: I contribute perhaps 2000-3000 edits a months and interact often with loads of people across a wide range of articles etc. - Sitush (talk) 12:55, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Just as an example, I've been on WT:GGTF with nary a mention of you here. - Sitush (talk) 12:58, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Obviously I disagree. And there is no doubt you relentless cast WP:ASPERSIONS when you do. Like your very first post on the GGTF page which was some stupid nitpicking of me, which you do relentlessly. Quote:It seems that despite all your contributions on Wikipedia, you still do not have a clue how to use talk pages. What's with the "later"? It makes no sense - you should have added that as a subsequent message. This is not a reflection on your gender but rather your complete inability to follow norms, as has been demonstrated on umpteen other noticeboards. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:04, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

You have 311 posts on WT:GGTF; I have 9, not all of which relate to you. If that is "following" then it certainly isn't obsessively so. And I got there via, IIRC, something on Jimbo's talk page. I'm fed up of this and am off out. - Sitush (talk) 14:11, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

311 posts on a task force you want abolished? Sounds like you are working hard at accomplishing your aim!!

Of your nine, besides one quote, these six go after me: [143], [144], [145], [146], [147], [148] Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Obviously you didn't follow me at every diff on Interaction Analyzer; it's a judgement call on which you might or might not have. But there is no doubt that on several pages (Like User talk:Jimbo Wales) you have gone out of your way to attack me with the same nitpicking BS. I'm quite sure you followed me to GTTP after learning of my involvement, even if you deny it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:16, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Carol, I think you may have misread that, you have 311 posts, Sitush has 9 SPACKlick (talk) 14:33, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Those 6 diffs, in TL:DR are, 1 comment on you changing a post after people had responded and a response to a follow up on that from someone else. 3 edits relating to a strikeout you had placed in a comment and a reply to you directly engaging with a thread Sitush started followed by a response to a ping from another user. Not exactly chasing you around the project. SPACKlick (talk) 15:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - One of the most asinine applications of Wikipedia's asinine "outing" policy that I have ever seen. Carrite (talk) 12:28, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Carrite. Considering Carolmooredc has posted information about herself as she has at last admitted here, some might say she has been somewhat disingenuous in allowing editors to suppose she has been outed. J3Mrs (talk) 12:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per TP. Intothatdarkness 13:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment I have concerns about the implication of TP's comment above namely their suggestion that an editor has to have something they posted oversighted (supressed) after it's been deleted otherwise it's considered available on wiki and can be freely used.

  If something has already been deleted, many are going to assume it's gone and regardless of whether they originally requested deletion, they could easily take it as sufficient removal of info they later regret posting. (Actually we partially saw this confusion above with Neotarf, and this was after TP made it clear it was a deleted page.) Heck, not everyone is everyone going to remember they posted it, and even if they did, they may not remember when so finding it may be difficult and if the editor isn't an admin, will require admin help.

  I don't think WP:outing is intended to suggest oversight is needed before information shouldn't be used. While it does mention oversight a few times, TP themselves quoted the page as having said "redacted". AFAIK, redacted is generally taken to mean simply removing the information yourself sometime after posting it. You don't even need to have the diff deleted let alone oversighted. Since redacting something in a now deleted page isn't easily possible when you're not an admin, deletion should generally be sufficient.

  My reading of WP:OUTING is in the case when the information has been oversighted, mentioning it is clearly outing. In a case where "still-existing, self-disclosed information" is used, it's "not considered outing". I do not believe this was intended to apply to deleted information, even if the editor themselves wasn't the one who requested deletion, for the reasons outlined earlier. In other words, this falls in to a bit of a grey area.

  The other reason why the OUTING page mentions oversight is probably to emphasise to people concerned that they should request oversight/suppression and I'm not disagreeing with this. Particularly in cases where the info isn't widely known, there is always a risk the info may be revealed without someone appreciating the implications & there's also the risk of rogue admins. There's also the risk the page may be undeleted in the future. So to be clear, I'm not disagreeing that oversight is best, simply that we shouldn't consider it as necessary and in a case where the information is in a deleted page, it shouldn't be considered usable on wiki. (And since Carolmooredc apparently does remember they posted it and so it would have probably been better for them to request oversight if they did want the info gone. And actually, it's not clear to me that Carolmooredc does want the website gone, or rather they feel people are using it to harass them which is a related but ultimately different point.)

  However in this particular case, I don't think the website link itself can be considered outing. Not because Carolmooredc posted it since that's too complicated considering the conditions here, but because it's appears Sitush may have been posting the website relating to their plans to write an article (however ill advised that was) rather than in relation to the editor.

  Nil Einne (talk) 14:45, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

  • So if an admin says they deleted something, and you can't see it, how do you know if they did it right? —Neotarf (talk) 15:22, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Just to be more clear, requiring more and more effort from editors who wish privacy becomes a "Striesand effect" situation, as they are required to take more and more actions and make more inquiries of more people that could have the effect of calling attention to the very thing they want out of sight. Finally you get the scenario where someone is able to say "see this thing that was deleted for privacy reasons" and providing a diff to it on a page that is watched by 6,316 users. Lack of respect for privacy may be tolerated on some off-wiki blogs, but it should not be tolerated here. —Neotarf (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - The subject was not 'outed' (given evidence above), the draft article in userspace isn't an attack piece but a draft, and comments such as "Would you like me to copy all the links at the ANI to your your user page? I keep them in a text file anyway, just have to update it a bit"[149] and continual use of User:Sitush's personal name in comments and edit summaries (which I didn't know until it was highlighted by Carolmooredc) suggest this is far from a one-sided case of 'harassment'. AnonNep (talk) 15:06, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: Anyway, I'm off out shortly: got a computer to fix. You know my name - Simon Tushingham - and you or anyone else is welcome to dig around the web for me, although I suspect that you'll find more with the Sitush monicker, including the infamous claims that I'm among those paid by Prince to edit here. - Sitush (talk) 17:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC) from Situs talk page. So I used it a couple times. I don't want to confuse people so won't do with any frequency. The problem with his linking to my web page and saying he was going to do analysis was it was just one more item in a long line of baiting. Yes, I shouldn't take the bait, but it's 24 hours after another ANI. I am only human, aren't I? And isn't it a shame we have to collect diffs on editors so opposed to us that we don't have time to work on articles. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:54, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Carol, I'm not falling for it. AnonNep (talk) 15:59, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose There are sooooooo many elements at play here, but to start off I will oppose a block (or even an interaction ban from above). Here's my issues, however:

1. Did Carol ever actually self-identify on Wikipedia - the answer appears to be "yes"
2. Is Carol Moore really "notable" enough to warrant even a draft - the answer is "unsure"
3. What was Sitush's reasoning for creating the draft? A real article? To say "I know who you are, so behave" - I'm not sure we'll ever really know the true answer to that
4. We seem to have a longstanding policy about BLP's: if the subject properly self-identifies to the Foundation via OTRS, and they request for no article about them, then we seem to live by that request. If Carol has made such a request, the MFD becomes moot as instant-delete-and-delete-any-future-such-drafts. This has been especially true about borderline-notable people

This really makes resolution pretty simple, if you think about it. the panda ɛˢˡ” 16:07, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Gee, who knew. Thanks for advice. Will do. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:23, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not very good advice though. That the subject of an article doesn't want the article is generally neither here nor there, as in the case of Jim Hawkins (radio presenter) for instance. Eric Corbett 17:38, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Canvassing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This looks like another instance of canvassing to me. (I'm not "of" Cambridge University, btw: left there in 1985). - Sitush (talk) 13:26, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, more canvassing. An uninvolved administrator (i.e. not me) needs to tell Carol very firmly to cut this out, whether it be on the GGTF page or elsewhere (as this one is). Black Kite (talk) 13:35, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Geez. I'll take off the link. The guy didn't understand WHY many people were saying Sitush's crappy bio that would never survive AfD was just harassment and I don't like to make charges without providing diffs. So I guess I should add all the diffs? Geez. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:43, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, add the diffs. Linking to an ongoing discussion in a non-neutral way (which you've got to admit that was) is simply canvassing. Black Kite (talk) 13:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Hm. Even the latest edit summary at that page looks dodgy. - Sitush (talk) 13:56, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

This is harassment and some Wikipedians need to wake the fuck up

I am boggled at how so many people can be so brain-dead to think Sitush is doing nothing wrong here and I can only assume these are people who either like Sitush, hate Carol, or are just so deeply immersed in the asinine Wikipedia groupthink on harassment that they fail to recognize what is going on here. To wit, Sitush strongly criticized Carol during the case regarding SPECIFICO and in one comment stated: "I might have to start following her around more often myself if these proposals go through because someone has to keep an eye on her." Now, I personally did not think that singular comment was problematic since I took it as being an editor stating a concern about an editor's behavior and feeling there was a need for someone to insure she does not behave disruptively. However, after the case was closed with a one-way interaction ban on SPECIFICO, Sitush merely ten hours later made a remark on his talk page about how should he "do anything related to Wikipedia" it would involve an "analysis" of Carol's personal website. This was reasonably taken by Carol as a signal of Sitush's intent to do "opposition research" on her and she left a warning about it. Sitush then responds with this remark where he pulls out several allegations based on his "research" into Carol, including making allegations of criminal activity and citing personal attacks from someone endorsing a political opponent of hers. He basically taunts her with this information he is gleaning from many non-reliable sources before launching the article over her strenuous objections due to the very reasonable concern that someone who is hot off a personal dispute with her is going to try putting out an article about her on Wikipedia.

Now, I have read the userspace article, and from my reading it seems like Sitush is selectively adding material designed to make Carol look like a lunatic. The space he gives to her statements about The Beatles is bizarre given how trivial it is and reads like something you would include to mock a person by going "Haha! She thinks Beatles fans were a part of women's lib! What a maroon!" Another issue is where he lifts material from this article to say "At that time, she was involved in an anti-war protest, opposing US military action in Iran and Iraq, and also supporting Palestinians in what she said were their defensive actions against Israeli and US troops. She was concerned that one outcome might be a Russian nuclear attack on the US." This phrasing, again, makes her sound like a lunatic since the two events seem completely unrelated or like some absurd exaggeration, until you read the actual source, which says: "Citing Seymour Hersh's "The Samson Option," Ms. Moore expressed concern that an Israeli attack on Iran would result in Russia's launching nuclear missiles at America." Of course, the Samson Option refers to a claim that part of Israel's nuclear strategy is that if the country's leaders feel Israel's very existence is threatened they will launch nukes across the world to spark off a global nuclear war and bring the world down with them, which may be extreme but sounds a lot less crazy. There are other examples, but my only impression upon reading that article in full is that Sitush was probably cackling while writing it and only making the barest effort to be neutral regarding Carol.

He does all this, while having recently expressed a desire for her personally getting dragged before ArbCom. This has all the markings of wanting to see Carol named and shamed for whatever fucking problem he has with her. I don't give a shit how much he thinks he can be neutral, his own personal evaluations of his behavior are completely delusional given that everything he has done in the past few days reeks of harassment. Basically, he followed through on this aforementioned threat and there seem to be a lot of chuckleheads here who don't give a crap about real fucking harassment on Wikipedia. Maybe there is something wrong with Carol's behavior, but it sure as fucking hell isn't excusing anything Sitush is doing here and all of you taking his side should feel like fucking gobs of shit because that is what you fucking are when you enable this kind of abusive treatment. There is a difference between assuming good faith and being an ignorant jerkoff.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if I sound this way but I am not going to read a wall of text here, I feel that an I-ban needs to be put in place between the two, its a good solution and everyone can go on their merry way. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - completely uninvolved in this whole mess (although Corbett's talkpage is on my watchlist for some reason) but I am depressed at just how partisan most contributors to this argument appear so far. After ten minutes of perusing, I can easily discern two camps, and its rare to find any comment that strays outside of those boundaries. Maybe everyone ought to take a chill pill and reconsider their goals? I don't mean this to sound patronizing, I know I could often use a step back myself. As for EC Sitush creating an article on another editor with whom he has beef (assuming I am correctly interpreting the situation thus far), that takes a huge set of balls and a willingness to relinquish any WP peace and quiet. This kind of ANI (or arbcom) response is almost inevitable. I would hve never ever in a thousand years done it myself. That said, the article, when I looked at it, appears uncommonly unbiased and would most certainly be a great starting point for a proper BLP once it moves into mainspace.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:39, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

  You seem to be a little confused Mr.choppers; I didn't create the article, nor have I ever even edited it. Eric Corbett 12:27, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Oops - I meant to write Sitush, but I came to this kerfuffle via your talk page. Cheers,  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:05, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

• Please see my evaluation of Sitush's "unbiased" piece. There is some obvious effort to cherry-pick and misrepresent the sources to portray her in a near comical manner. He is clearly not being neutral or unbiased, but is acting out his hostility towards her with this so-called article. I have read the article and the sources and can safely say he is not being unbiased by any measure. Mind you, I have no personal stake in this GGTF drama or the Austrian Economics drama from which this feud sprung. What I am saying is based off having looked at his comments and the article in the overall context. This is harassment. Period. Full stop.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:48, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• If you are looking for a block or ban then I suggest this goto WP:ARBCOM. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Two things; one, sometimes the things discussed at ANI and elsewhere take a fair bit of words to really describe what's going on. I want to reach through the screen and slap anyone who posts something like "TL;DR I can't read that so Imma just support banning everyone/closing the discussion/or the god-awful wiki-trope of "trouting". If your attention span is sometimes tested by a 140-character tweet, then please, go away, and let us deal with it.
• Two, I pointed out Sitush's threat to stalk Carol's edits last week. With the article draft creation, I hope all can see now how the intimidation game has just been cranked up a notch. Tarc (talk) 03:58, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Honestly this is a rant manifested from all the feelings that have come from this thread. Some people are so set in their ways you cant expect some to change their ways with a flip of a switch. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:21, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• The article is fine. Anything that makes Carol seem like a "lunatic" is because of the sources. Though if I were in Sitush' shoes I would have created this article off-line and waited for things to calm down for a few months before publishing. Or never.Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 04:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Wait a tic, back up. A BLP that portrays its subject as a lunatic is OK because there are sources? What's all this NPOV nonsense I've read so much about, then? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 12:47, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course the sources don't say lunatic, and neither did Sitush' article. Given the content of some of the sources used, I'd say Sitush could have easily portrayed Carol as an unforutnate subject while staying true to the sources.Two kinds of pork^Makin'_Bacon 13:58, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• This is insane. Sitush tells Mark Miller on Sitush talk page he's going to leave me alone and then he puts a list of alleged "search" words on the talk page of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Sitush/Carol Moore which includes "gun owner." In a city where it's illegal to own and unregistered gun, making such an accusation can lead to police raids and death. Or Swatting. Please someone remove this and impose a mandatory two way ban now, including banning him from that talk page which he has sort of moved off his talk page. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:18, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hold the phone here.....I went and looked on Sitush's talk page to see where they suddenly told me that they were going to leave you alone. I can't seem to find it. Mind you...I have not made that many posts on Sitush's talk page but it is possible I missed it. Diff please.--Mark Miller (talk) 13:24, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm confused. Wikipedia talk:Miscellany for deletion/User:Sitush/Carol Moore has never existed. Anyway, you're light-skinned, so the police aren't going to shoot first (compare Ferguson to Bundy Ranch) even if they do take the extreme leaps of reasoning from "someone mentioned her name with the phrase gun owner" (which, incidentally, you just did in this comment) to "she needs to be raided". And yes, it should go without saying that creating an article on someone after being in an argument with them has at the very least the appearance of being a total dick move. --NE2 03:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It's been removed, but enough already. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:23, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Sitush put it back. My housemate, the home owner, is getting really pissed off. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 12:35, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

I re moved it, he can go pound sand for all I care at this point. Tarc (talk) 12:40, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

To his great credit, User:Fram has deleted the draft as a BLP violation. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 12:52, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Fram is hereby awarded with the Rene Rancourt double fist pump. Tarc (talk) 12:58, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

ManymanymanymanyMANY thanks to Fram. But...we still need to get these two editors to part ways and leave each other alone. I can't figure out a way to do this so I strongly encourage an interaction ban...either self imposed by both parties, by the community...or a freaking office action by the foundation.--Mark Miller (talk) 13:30, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

An Office action could have removed the BLP, as has happened with others, if that was really the problem. AnonNep (talk) 13:37, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Happily bio's gone [Later strike of premature optimistic statement:and a voluntary two way interaction ban going into effect soon. Geez... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:59, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

• No concensus, but can these two editors at least agree (informally) to leave each other alone? As in not create articles about each other? Not to deliberately provoke? etc etc MaxBrowne (talk) 13:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Please...pretty please wish sugar on top. I could add crap on top (trust me...I can) but what would that accomplish here?--Mark Miller (talk) 03:16, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Close this whole thing?

Since Carolmooredc and her IAC cronies have apparently accomplished their mission, this entire ANI should probably be closed as moot. 65.209.113.178 (talk) 14:01, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• The whole case is likely going to Arbcom per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Gender Gap Task Force Issues so I feel that this could be closed with that result. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

First, this posting was removed since it makes a false accusation I'm in cahoots with sockpuppets on the India Against Corruption who allegedly were threatening Sitush and who were at least one of the parties he made the redacted "gun barrell" threat/joke against. Removing material that the average inclusionist would think was appropriate and writing crappy bios all in one topic area over time certain can get the sanest editors ticked off. Not that that excuses whatever alleged threats were made, of course.

Second, Sitush is not yet a party to the Arbcom though several people have asked him to be. I personally don't care if this ANI which I did not bring is closed as "no consensus but both sides should leave each other alone." (Though obviously making it sound like both individuals were equally responsible would be a bit much considering the diffs provided and comments editors have left here.)

When Sitush returns, if he starts on me again with nitpicking reverts against policy, posting petty complaints on my talk page after a talk page ban, and following me again just to cast aspersions against me in various forums, I'll be back here in a flash. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:17, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ongoing issues with User:Truth_is_the_only_religion on Brahma Kumaris article

^{What's up, Doc?} User:Truth_is_the_only_religion is a SPA and appears to only be here to edit disruptively, without any regard for consensus and without feeling any need to explain his/her edits on the talk page. Probably their contrib's show the story best. The issues raised when I posted here on 26th August are still very much a concern. However in addition, since that date this user has persistently made the same aggressive edit (deleting 15-35% of the article) at least 9 times [150][151][152][153][154][155][156] etc. against consensus, being reverted by 4 different editors so far. In a nutshell, they are trying to piecemeal re-instate a version of the article that existed prior to User:Januarythe18th being indefinitely blocked. There have been at least 3 occasions when the article has been 'bulk reverted' to the banned editors preferred version. Of course they were all undone. So now this "new editor" is going for the piecemeal approach. They refuse to work with other editors at all. I'm confident I can collaborate with User:McGeddon and others to address any content concerns through the usual process. This editor was warned last week on their talk page about this conduct, but no change at all. Thank you Danh108 (talk) 19:37, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:OWB #72 is hereby invoked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Some WP:BOOMERANG here - User:Danh108 is also a bulk-reverting SPA, on the same article. I'm afraid I don't share Danh108's confidence in collaboration as they have declared a personal connection to Brahma Kumaris but reject COI policy as not applying to them. --McGeddon (talk) 10:49, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. Boomerangs come in all shapes and sizes[157]. Who is "them" anyway? Do you normally refer to editors by their religious beliefs[158]? 85.255.234.91 (talk) 13:22, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

That was intended as a singular they referring to Danh108. --McGeddon (talk) 14:53, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

OK fair dues. Although the bulk reverts appear to apply to the disruptive trolling account which appears to be sock of a previously blocked editor WP:BMB. Also Dan appears to have received your content related edits gracefully. Perhaps that would be a more productive avenue to explore 66.249.93.52 (talk) 17:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what I am supposed to say. The simple answer is just that this is a Brahma Kumari follower, one of three editing the page, who have turned it into a badly written advert full of unsubstantiated conclusions.

I don't know every rule on the Wikipedia but I know a few and if you look at my edits more closely you will, for example, that I removed unreferenced material which had a flag almost a year old. I removed links to Blogspot website for the religion. I removed many self-published references written by the religion. I removed a whole lot of links to their retreat centres which could only have been advertising for them. And so on.

As I mentioned on the talk page, they have spent months editing the page without any discussion of the changes and, strangely, they never discuss or dispute between themselves.

I have asked them to confirm in writing that they are not acting as a team, and are not being coordinated somewhere off the Wikipedia. I believe they are and so their answer is evidence of their good faith. At present I believe that there is evidence of bad faith, e.g. constant admin reports about any one else editing the page and reversion of simple erroneous facts such as their founder's date of birth. I think they are doing this deliberately to provoke troubles which they then use to report people.

Therefore, can I demand a response from them here, are all three of you BK followers and you BK followers being coordinated by other individuals within the sect behind the scenes, or elsewhere? Honest answer please. --Truth is the only religion (talk) 17:15, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Why no answer yet from the 3 editors? Can one of them tell us if they are being coordinated off the Wikipedia? --Truth is the only religion (talk) 15:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

You sound exactly like a previous editor who was blocked for repeated outing, talk page abuse and a battleground mentality. 66.249.93.52 (talk) 17:03, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Truth_is_the_only_religion is a significant concern. I agree with User talk:66.249.93.52's comments above. I propose User:Truth_is_the_only_religion is either banned from this topic or re-blocked for the following reasons:

Proposal for User:Truth_is_the_only_religion to be site banned for the following reasons:

• They have just joined Wikipedia, yet they are clearly not a new user. I struggle to accept User:McGeddon's suggestion that theymay have lost their password.
• I suggest it is a brazen evasion of their earlier indefinite block: Just compare their comments above to the identical accusations being made in this users unblock requests. This users strategy is actually working really well - pump the talk page with unevidenced accusations, playing on the suspicions people have around these kind of pages (because so many times it has been true - Unfortunately everyone loves a conspiracy theory). Then edit as you like.
• The Tag-team allegation [159] relates to myself User:GreyWinterOwl and User:Changeisconstant. User:Changeisconstant has only edited the page once since and has almost no contrib's - why would they be part of the conspiracy theory? I am asserting they were included because this editor knows them from past wikipedia experience and therefore includes them in the accusations they made earlier when operating the account User:Januarythe18th. Otherwise they would just as easily have included User: TMDrew who has reverted their bulk edits twice and is also a new account (January 2014). I am asserting this is just a strategy to deceive people, to character assassinate editors that don't conform to his/her views, persistenly focusing on their character/alleged religious affiliation, while merrily changing whatever they feel like on the article. So far the only content they keep raising to justify their edits is the founders DOB (and ironically I agree with this!, but can't find RS in support).
• In a similar vein, User talk:Truth is the only religion is immediately referring to the other editors as 'they' - presumably in accordance with his/her conspiracy theory. He launches personal attacks based on religious belief/affiliation. Here he suggest all BKs should be banned from editing the page - what would happen if that was written on Jewish pages?
• The talk page gets turned into WP:Battleground and editors are met with hostility and endless accusations and demands that "they" must answer his accusations before this editor will even speak to content issues "If the BKs would care to confirm or deny my first two questions, then I am happy to continue a discussion of why I think the changes are justified".
• This conduct incites the same level of suspicion in other editors towards "BKs", yet it's all just empty accusations. No attempt is ever made to raise the concerns with Wiki admin - it is used purely as an editing strategy....and let's be honest, who reading this isn't very weary about User:Danh108 now....I even start to doubt myself.
• Now that other editors are getting involved they are realising/echoing the concerns I've been flagging [160] [161]
• User:McGeddon is a really good editor and quite pleasant to interact with. If anyone has time for the explanation about why some of his comments about me are incorrect they can read this. The only editor I reverted was User:Truth_is_the_only_religion who was doing mass edits with explanations like "change date of birth" or "written by follower of religion". Unfortunately User:McGeddon has a small blindspot in his/her interaction with me - I think mainly because of the influence of the rhetoric on the talk page.

Danh108 (talk) 20:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

My suggestion that the user might have lost their password was a good faith response to your initial post on my talk page back in August, accusing an editor I'd never heard of of being a sockpuppet of "my old friend" who I'd evidently reverted once, months previously. If you want to make and discuss sockpuppet accusations, WP:SPI is the place to do it. --McGeddon (talk) 20:37, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

This guy, Truth_is_the_only_religion has continued to edit war against numerous users and has repeatedly reverted edits against consensus.--TMD (talk) 21:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

There are significant 'blockworthy' issues that don't relate to the sockpuppetry being raised here.Danh108 (talk) 04:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Truth_is_the_only_religion has questioned me as a BK follower and part of some tag team. The same approach was taken by User:Januarythe18th many times before being blocked. If it helps the case, let me make it very clear that I am not a BK follower and this is a baseless presumption. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Changeisconstant (talk • contribs) 17:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I actually did not read all of what Danh108 has written because what is going on here is far more simple. They have accused me of being someone else called June24th. All I can say is that I am not June24th but I don't know how to prove it. I welcome any investigation.

If you look at the actual edits I have, I think you will find they are according to the rules of the Wikpedia, for example, removing blog links, self-publish materials, unreferenced stuff, outdated requests for information and so on. --Truth is the only religion (talk) 17:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Wait a minute, no one has ever accused your current account of being June24th. User:Januarythe18th had been accused of being User:June24th about 8 months before your current account was created. Why did you suddenly bring that up? GreyWinterOwl (talk) 19:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

::That there is a dead giveaway, so block it already! Not to mention should be blocked for BATTLEGROUND against a specific religion and not getting how wikipedia has worked since the beginning - as someone said we will never ban Jews from Jewish pages so why do ppl suggest it for your personal unfavorite (fill in the blank) 71.127.138.35 (talk) 20:23, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Striking yet another sock edit by indefinitely blocked Til Eulenspiegel. Dougweller (talk) 08:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

GreyWinterOwl, that's more the proof that User:Truth_is_the_only_religion is likely to be a User:Januarythe18th sockpuppet account Changeisconstant (talk) 04:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Here it is; [162]. There might actually have been others but I cannot afford to spend the time looking. Danh108 seems to spend all this time complaining, reporting or trying to get admins to support him. There are too many. Ultimately it all adds up to the same thing. The BKs are trying to block any change to a page that they have written like an advert for their religion. --Truth is the only religion (talk) 18:12, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• I once walked into a crowded pub and as soon as I entered no one looked at me, but it went completely quiet - that silence spoke and I knew there had been conversations I wasn't privy to. I now know how it feels to be prejudged....Danh108 (talk) 17:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The accusation that I was User:June24th is the only I can remember looking at. The BK editors have made so many, I have not followed them all. It seems to me to be all they do; revert the topics on their religion and make complaints to block other users.

I asked the BK editors a question which they have refused to answer. Are they being coordinated and supported off the Wikipedia by other members of their religion to control the topic on their religion?

The reason it is important to hold them to an answer is two fold.

1. If they admit the answer is yes, and the answer is as I can show, then it proves they are acting as a team to control the topic page, and acting in bad faith.
2. If they answer no, it proves they are acting in bad faith and being dishonest to the Wikipedian community and general public.

This is why they won't answer the question. Both answers prove bad faith.

If it is important, I will search for the User:June24th accusation but it will take me a little time that could be better spent. Thank you. --Truth is the only religion (talk) 14:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You're demands seem to revolve around concerns of WP:COI, which is a guideline. Given your singular fascination with one article it is entirely possible you have some conflict of interest issues yourself. But all this is a smokescreen. Behind the smoke you are almost certainly evading a block based on your similar behaviour to User:Januarythe18th and suddenly mentioning User:June24th (a sockpuppet of Jan18th), harassing editors by making repeated accusations without evidence, personal attacks by discrediting editors based on their alleged religious affiliations and editing tendentiously. These are all violations of policies, not just guidelines. I'm amazed that you continue to do all this in full view of ANI. It's a wonder you haven't been blocked already. It's impossible to assess if your accusations are true without evidence or other editors, who don't engage in a pattern of POV pushing and disruption as you seem to be doing, experiencing some kind of disruptive resistance to editing that seems to be in some way coordinated between the editors you mention.85.255.233.102 (talk) 07:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Who are you? You did not log in. --Truth is the only religion (talk) 18:12, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal for Brahma Kumari followers to be banned from editing page relating to their religion BKWSU

User:Danh108, User:GreyWinterOwl and User:Changeisconstant are Brahma Kumari followers and working as a team to control the Wikipedia topic page on their religion, and are being coordinated off the Wikipedia to do so.

The version of the topic they keep reverting to is highly problematic as discussed. They appear to be investing a disproportionate amount of time and effort courting administrators and putting in complaints.

If someone can tell me how or where to put in a more formal or complaint and explanation, please do so. Thanks.

Before I do so, I want to ask the Brahma Kumaris followers a simple leading question and see their answer. I would like other Wikipedians to hold them to an answer.

Have you and are you being coordinated off Wikipedia by other member or members of your religion? --Truth is the only religion (talk) 17:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Truth is the only religion, Serious accusations require serious evidence. I suggest you either back up your claims or remove them. --Richard Yin (talk) 18:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

This proposal isn't likely to go anywhere. Yes, we banned the Church of Scientology, but that's easier to define and track (sort of), and the Church of Scientology is noted for their incompatible worldview (to put it politely). With or without bans, followers of different religions are going to otherwise edit articles relating to their religions. Except in some fringe cases (namely, and to my knowledge, only the Church of Scientology) it is better that they do so openly so that biases can be understood for what they are (as well as allowing good-faith editors to edit topics they are interested in and to balance out those who have a bias against any given group).

Do I have the impression that Brahma Kumari followers are causing trouble in the article? Yes (though I also get the impression that former members or persons otherwise with an agenda against the religion are trying to hard to balance them out). Do I think that topic banning Brahma Kumari followers is going to accomplish anything? Not really. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Going by the record of banned sock puppet accounts like User:Januarythe18th, they had similar battleground approach and accusations to distract Admins looking at banning them. I am not a BKWSU follower as stated above already however followers are always going to be editing the articles pertaining to their religions and there is no way Wikipedia would ban all followers of religions! Changeisconstant (talk) 04:27, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

This proposal can't be voted on because it is illegal in most countries to bar participation based on religion. The tit-for-tat nature of the proposal looks to me like gaming. 66.249.93.109 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 12:43, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I can substantiate my allegation but I am asking the 3 BK editors to come clean first and answer my question to them regarding whether they are being coordinated off the Wikipedia?

Can someone ensure that they answer, or accept their unwillingness to answer as an admission of guilt?

The reason I am not rushing to provide the evidence I have is to further underline the bad faith and waste of others time, energy and efforts via their operating as a team, and making quite so many complaints and accusations to distract from what is going on as they have done.

I suggest that the Brahma Kumari extreme worldview and modus operandi is clearly comparable. Yes, I think they should be banned as per Scientology. The intentions of any group who believe dinosaurs existed 2,500 years ago and that they are going to inspire a nuclear holocaust which will kill off 7 billion impure members of humanity so that they can inherit a heaven on earth afterwards has to be suspect. --Truth is the only religion (talk) 14:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Your problem is not with some group of editors. Your problem is with the wp policies you have such little regard for. Your contribs today speak for themselves. 66.249.93.61 (talk) 15:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't answer to most nation's laws. This is a private site, and we are allowed to ban or block editors as we see fit. See WP:FREESPEECH. This proposal is worrisome, however.

If BK followers were causing a tenth as much trouble as the Church of Scientology did, it would have been noticed not only by other users, but by the news media. The Church of Scientology (not necessarily its followers, but the organization that sells the followers their beliefs) was noted for decades of undeniable illegal actions, which they tried to censor (among other things), along with a worldview that is completely at odds with common understandings of research, biology, and even language itself. If there are BK followers in this thread, they appear to be speaking the same English as everyone else, instead of a nearly-distinct language consisting of homonymic jargon. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:32, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation certainly does have to answer to US laws. For example, the community can't just vote to allow child pornography on Wikipedia. Banning a whole religious group from editing as a policy would be seen as religious discrimination. Referring again to the Scientology arbcom case example, it was a mechanical IP range block against offices being used to edit disruptively, not against Scientologist editors in general. 66.249.93.61 (talk) 17:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The Foundation is not bound by the First Amendment, as it is not the US Congress. Freedom of religion as enshrined in the First Amendment only prevents the United States government from endorsing or prohibiting the worship of a given religion, and has no bearing on private entities such as the Wikimedia Foundation. Your comparison to child pornography is a straw man, since there is not (to my knowledge) any Constitutional amendment specifically banning it as there is with freedom of religion. Apples to oranges. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 00:07, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. I'm going to have to throw my hands up here and say I'm not in the US nor a lawyer before I did myself six feet under! I just read a "Civil Rights" webpage [163] and assumed that where it said that there were, "Laws protecting people from private (non-government) discrimination (based on gender, religion, race, sexual orientation, etc.)", that would include public participation in projects or services provided to the public. So far I've only been able to find laws applying to employment so I may have been mistaken. The "straw man" was in answer to the statement made by Ian.thomson that, "Wikipedia doesn't answer to most nation's laws". The point being that Wikimedia Foundation certainly does have answer to laws where they are applicable to an organisation running a website in CA/US. Even if there aren't very many of them. I've also just read WP:FREESPEECH and it appears to be slapping me on the face with a wet trout. How embarrassing.

So I guess that leaves the question as to whether Wikimedia Foundation would accept a community decision to ban editors based solely on their religious beliefs due to the possible bad publicity and protests that might entail. 85.255.233.102 (talk) 07:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Since there is no prospect of the community enacting any such ban, we'll never know... AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy to end on that note. 85.255.233.102 (talk) 07:43, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

85.255, Did you read anything else I said? While Wikipedia could ban editors based on their religious affiliation, there is no reason to believe that'd happen unless a particular group proved to be incapable of contributing positively (such as the Church of Scientology, but not Freezone Scientologists). And does Wikipedia answer to the laws of any other nation? No. Is America "most nations?" No. Don't assume that America is the world. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. You are right. I was wrong. 212.183.128.125 (talk) 14:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Request administrator to evaluate conduct of user

Would someone kindly close this? Since it went nowhere and there have been new developments, I have started an RFCU. --Lightbreather (talk) 02:00, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I have asked Scalhotrod repeatedly over the months to keep his comments on content, not on contributor, but he insists on attacking and harassing me.

20 May 2014

Scalhotrod accused me of WP:GAMING:[164]

I answered his "question" and asked him to keep it on content:[165]

Response - I can't due to the Topic Ban imposed on LB and myself. --Scal

21 May 2014

I warned him [166] about three instances of using WP:REVTALK to attack and bait me:[167][168][169]

He deleted the warning:[170]

Response - I can't due to the Topic Ban imposed on LB and myself. --Scal

22 May 2014

Scalhotrod accused me of making an article talk-page discussion about me:[171]

I explained why my comment was an example of WP:TALK#USE, and I asked him to keep it on content:[172]

Response - I can't due to the Topic Ban imposed on LB and myself. --Scal

28 May 2014

Scalhotrod accused me of having an "agenda or salacious purpose":[173]

I asked him (on his talk page) to strike it and stop:[174]

He deleted that request and called it "harassing":[175]

Response - I can't due to the Topic Ban imposed on LB and myself. --Scal

9 June 2014 - 11 July 2014

He deleted reliably sourced content I added to an article, calling it "Clean up."[176]

I explained (on his talk page): "Removing relevant, verifiable, reliably sourced information is not 'clean up,'" and asked him to restore the content or start a discussion on the article's talk page or at RSN.[177]

After TransporterMan asked Scalhotrod to discuss the content dispute with me, Scal responded with a 600+ word tirade accusing me of POV pushing and ownership issues - with virtually no evidence.[178]

Scalhotrod continued to give the edit summary "Clean up" inappropriately.[179]

I asked him to stop, which led to another of his long commentaries about me:[180]

I asked him to keep it on content, which led to yet another long commentary yet again about me:[181]

We were topic banned for edit warring:[182]

Response - I can't due to the Topic Ban imposed on LB and myself. --Scal

22 July 2014

He speculated at another user's talk page about whether or not I was a sockpuppet:[183]

Response - This is not what was said. After months of intensive editing in some instances where upwards of 80% of edits made over a week or more where by LB, activity stopped completely. I posed a question on the Talk page of an Editor who is more familiar with the site and processes than I am. --Scal

This is horribly not assuming good faith, but do you think she would resort to editing as an IP or creating another account? Scalhotrod 17:27, 22 July 2014 Lightbreather (talk) 17:49, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

26 July 2014

I joined the Gender Gap Task Force [184] and he joined less than 48 hours later:[185] (and within an hour of my inviting two other female editors to join)

Response - I have no idea what LB's invitations of other women have to do with anything, but I became curious about the Gender Gap Task Force as a result of a comment by LB. --Scal

Further, 24 hours after I joined GGTF, and only 12 hours before he joined, Scalhotrod posted this on another editor's talk page.[186] I am copying it here as an example of the kind of thing he has posted numerous in inappropriate forums and without evidence despite my asking him to stop it, and despite civility policies that say not to do these things! He called this one "Beating a dead horse"

You have to understand that regardless of what WP policy says or how its interpreted and/or enforced, LB believes that anything said to her, about her, or simply perceived in reference to her that she does not like, IS a personal attack in her mind. Its how her mind works and no one will change it unless she wants to. She won't listen to (or be convinced by) any reason or logic that diverts her from her particular goal or objective when editing an article regardless of how sound or commonsense it is. Once I realized this, I gave up and just tried to keep doing what I always do, expand and cleanup articles and try to maintain article neutrality where ever it makes sense. She didn't like that on one article and took me to Arbitration Enforcement which resulted in both of us being Topic Banned for 6 months. Personally I consider it a very small price to pay now that others are becoming aware of her tactics and attitudes.

--Lightbreather (talk) 23:53, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

28 July 2014

He started a conversation about me on his talk page, pinging three other editors to join in:[187]

Response - And I genuinely thought this was an acceptable means to start a conversation that involved several different Editors regarding what I understood as a Talk page violation and the attempt to misrepresent a conversation. --Scal

I asked here at ANI for an admin evaluation of Scal's conduct. It was marked as "resolved" in less than 15 minutes by a non-admin editor.[188]

Response - Actually Admin Drmies agreed with the close shortly thereafter [189]. I'm not sure what the significance of this is. --Scal

Scalhotrod, man, you are on a short leash. Drmies 01:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC) [190] (scroll to last, long paragraph) Lightbreather (talk) 18:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

That comment wasn't even from the same page and is entirely out of context. Its from a rant of yours that is very similar to this one, now you're just being sloppy or indifferent about posting difs. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 18:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

It's directly related. It's from the discussion I started on Drmies' talk page[191] asking him to please re-open my request to have an admin evaluate your conduct - which, as noted above, had been closed quickly and without the eval. Lightbreather (talk) 19:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

17 September 2014

While I was in the middle of working on a page, he came to it and made a revert:[192]

(Despite having told me and others, including Drmies, that he was observing a voluntary IBAN.)

Response - This has absolutely NOTHING to do with LB. As I stated in my edit summary and on my Talk page I noticed that a controversial (to some) quote was still posted at the top of the No Personal Attacks policy page and I removed it citing the discussion on the Talk page. Yes, I did notice that Lightbreather was editing the page and even "Thanked" her for one of her edits that I thought was a good contribution. That's the only connection between the two. As for LB being in the middle of editing, I've suggested that she use "under construction" template or something similar to notify other editors, but this was rebuked. --Scal

My response was not a "rebuke."[193] Lightbreather (talk) 17:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Great, so you acknowledge that my edit had nothing to do with you and you're trying to make a connection where there is none. Granted, I'm still trying to understand the issue of you being "in the middle of working on a page". You've brought this up before, but never explained why an article should be hands off by other editors while you're making edits. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 18:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Great, so you acknowledge...? No, I do not. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Please stop. Lightbreather (talk) 18:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

22 September 2014

Today, on his talk page, Scal took advantage of an opportunity to attack me again:[194]

(The discussion was about content on a policy page, not about me.)

I asked him again to stop this kind of behavior:[195]

He closed the discussion saying that I was trolling him![196]

Response - Only after LB admitted to WP:Wikihounding my Talk page [197] --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 05:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Keeping in mind that the discussion was with T., I don't see hounding or admitting to hounding:

Scalhotrod, I was just getting ready to start a discussion with T. on his talk page when I found your comment above. Will you please redact the 'that apparently triggered...' portion of your last sentence? I have asked you repeatedly to keep your comments on content, not contributor. Please stop already.

--Lightbreather (talk) 18:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

If you didn't have my Talk page on your watchlist and were not routinely checking it (as you admitted to on Drmies Talk page [198]), in other words - WIkihounding my Talk page, how is it you "found" the comment? AND as its been explained to you by so many Users, talking about someone is NOT a personal attack. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 18:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

As explained above, I was getting ready to start a discussion on T's talk page. I was reviewing his recent contributions before I started the discussion. His recent contributions included edits on your talk page. When I went there, I read what you'd told him about me. Further, as to hounding, "The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason." I have an overriding reason - and just the one - for keeping an eye on your talk page: because you have a history of talking about me and of accusing me of policy violations without evidence. I have provided evidence of this over and over again. I want that to stop. Lightbreather (talk) 22:27, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Therefore, per WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE, I am asking that an administrator evaluate his conduct. --Lightbreather (talk) 22:13, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Some of this is mundane, but I particularly thing the paranoid comment, the accusation of vandalism, and this edit where LB is accused of plagiarism (but if it were plagiarism then the edit by Scalhotrod would amount to close paraphrasing and certainly didn't fix it) are all personal attacks.--v/r - TP 23:00, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Then what is your opinion of a statement like, "He has edited many dozens of porn articles and, IMO, he doesn't have much respect for women." made during an ANI? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 23:43, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Is your question based on the philosophy "an eye for an eye" or "two wrongs" or some other silly nonsense where your actions have to be compared to your opponents?--v/r - TP 23:52, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Not in the slightest. I am asking you to give an opinion on a statement made by my accuser just as you did on what was presented above. When I inquired previously about that statement during the ANI, it was ignored. When I inquired again, with a specific Admin, I was told that it would be better to just drop the issue, which I did. Why I am asking for your opinion is that a great many things said to and about Lightbreather in the last several months that she has interpreted as a personal attack, were either downplayed or simply ruled as not being a personal attack. If she can make a statement like that and not get called on it (assuming its ruled a personal attack), then maybe she (and/or me for that matter) doesn't understand what one is. Hence the laundry list of perceived issues that LB been posted here. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 00:24, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I oppose it. Any accusations about each other based on perceptions are counter to the goals of this project. Both your comments that I mention above and LB's comment that you have no respect for women are both inappropriate. Yours are personal attacks, LB's amount to casting aspersions.--v/r - TP 01:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, then how are you determining that my comments are personal attacks versus casting aspersions or simply asking a question based on the context of the situation? I'm happy to respond to each item in the list so the full context can be taken into consideration, not just LB's opinion on the matter. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Quit lawyering and quit the personal attacks. Calling someone paranoid is a personal attack. No one cares if you think you can talk your way out of it.--v/r - TP 04:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm simply asking how you are deciding what is a personal attack vs aspersions or any other possible interpretation? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 04:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:IDHT much? You're winning no points in this thread.--v/r - TP 17:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not trying to "win points", I'm trying to understand the measure that you're applying. Relative to Eric Corbett's language and behavior mentioned below, LB's accusations seem minor or even trivial. When are you going to understand that I'm trying to learn something from this experience so that I can move on to better things? Since you are the primary Admin involved, I am asking you for explanation since its one of the expectations of Adminship. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 18:25, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The part that says "As a matter of polite and effective discourse, comments should not be personalized." Calling LB paranoid is personalizing a dispute.--v/r - TP 20:18, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

And here we are at the crux of the matter. I did not "call LB paranoid", she was not involved in the discussion the word was used in. Based on the comment, "Removing the Eleanor Roosevelt quote... ...from the NPA article, which I'm in the middle of working on, is adding to the stalked feeling I have gotten from you before." is why I used the word when describing LBs actions. The article on "paranoia" states, "Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear..." This is why I do not understand your conclusion that its use is a personal attack. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 20:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

It's clear to me that you think I am stupid and incapable of reading. "Lightbreather was making edits that apparently triggered her paranoid tendencies" looks cut and dry to me.--v/r - TP 00:04, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not think you are stupid or incapable of reading, but I question your copy/paste abilities since you only quoted a portion of a sentence from my comment which changes its context and misleads anyone else who reads this. Then again, you could have just as easily attempted to make your point without the "stupid and incapable" preface. Speaking of "points", even the user I was having the discussion with is puzzled by your assessment of my comments and those of Lightbreather's (see User Tlhslobus' comments below). The User also references a similar situation where the assessment and outcome was radically different. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:18, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Scalhotrod only gave the last part of the statement he shared above. The first part was "[Since Scalhotrod] feels entitled to judge me I'll say this: " The whole statement was the last in a response to 700-words-worth of things he said about me,[199] including speculation that had nothing to do with the topic, plus some outright untruths like, "Looking at Lightbreather's edit history, I can't find a single edit that isn't [topic-ban]-related...." Lightbreather (talk) 01:04, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The 'he made me say it' argument doesn't work with me. Don't shoot yourself in the foot.--v/r - TP 01:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of our (mine and LB's) mutual topic ban, if you haven't already looked at it, the details are here. I'm not sure if LB's above statement violates the ban or not, but Callanecc can likely shed some light. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

This is not funny. Today, but 30 minutes after I called it a day on an article that I was working on, and while this request for evaluation of his conduct is underway, Scalhotrod went to the page that I was working on and edited it.[200] And then again a couple hours later.[201] How many thousands of articles on Wikipedia? And he chooses to go to the one I'm working on? Please, please, PLEASE won't somebody ban him from interacting with me? It's creepy and unwanted and it has gone on long enough. Please - Callanec, Drmies, TParis? Somebody? Some admin? Won't somebody please tell him to stop it? Lightbreather (talk) 04:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

OMG, did you bother to check the edit history and see how much work I have done on that article? I've more than doubled the size of it. When you made an edit, it popped up on my Watchlist, so of course I went to check it out. AND I found that you made some great edits, which I acknowledged yesterday in this discussion (see below). I'm not following you and the paranoids are not out to get you. When are you going to realize this? Furthermore, YOU chose to start editing porn related articles and cross over into an area that I frequent, so of course our paths are going to cross more often. No wonder Eric Corbett find so much of this pointless. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 20:26, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Your last edit on that article was three months before mine. I didn't vandalize the article - I improved it. Your following me around is problematic; others have told you this, too. And you're supposedly observing a self-imposed iban, but the evidence says otherwise. Also, where stalking is concerned, uninvited compliments are just as alarming as uninvited criticism. Lightbreather (talk) 19:04, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, there are many hundreds of porn articles. Our paths don't have to cross, but as I've said 2 or 3 other places: If you'll take your name off the GGTF members list, I'll take my name off the porn project members list, if you think that will help. Lightbreather (talk) 19:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Your reasoning is flawed because its based on activity that you know is allowed, even under a 1-way Iban. I've only praised your edits to the Measure B article and when it came up on my Watch list that anyone had edited the article, I took it as an opportunity to add material based on a source that I had just come across, most of what I added was from a September 21, 2014 article. Neither of us should need to leave either Project, that's a counterproductive suggestion, unless as Capeo below suggests, that joining the Porn Project was a means to do what you're accusing me of. And, as I've said before I can't control how you feel. In fact, quoting someone you seem to admire, Eleanor Roosevelt, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Going one step further, I'd contend that No one can make a person feel anything without their consent. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 20:41, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• I really don't want to be in the middle of this, though I suppose there's no way out. I see some problems with both editors in terms of behavior, and I kind of like and appreciate both of them as well: I prefer to try and get along with both of them. It seems, though, that they really can't be in the same room. Sketched roughly, Scalhotrod typically says the wrong thing, to which Lightbreather responds with admin requests and ANI threads. Both are drains on the community. So maybe an interaction ban (one-way or two-way or four-way) is helpful. On the other hand, we hear lots of complaints about lack of civility enforcement, and I think the "paranoid" comment really goes too far--but much of what tirritates Lightbreather is not so much outright personal attacks but minor mentions and edits that add up. If someone is able and willing to do the leg work (someone who is, ahem, not Lightbreather), they could go through the diffs and edits and overlaps to see if indeed there is solid evidence of stalking. I hear and see conflicting assessments, but a thorough investigation would be helpful, so we could draw intelligent and reasonable conclusions and perhaps act on it. (Let it be clear that I have no opinion on the stalking charge, since I just don't know.) For me, that is more of an investment than I can make right now. As a side note, I thought that Scalhotrod was going to stay away from LB, but apparently he didn't? That's not helpful.

  My apologies if I'm rambling, and it's all hot air anyway since I can't and won't pick sides at this moment and speak out one way or another. It's late and it's been a busy and sucky day on Wikipedia, and here we have yet another long-term conflict, and again I have no idea what to do about it. In another editorial conflict today I suggested a process be followed, and that apparently was unnecessary or whatever, and I'm afraid the same is going to happen here, and it will just fester. Drmies (talk) 05:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

To be fair, Drmies, my first reaction to Scalhotrod saying or doing something against policy/guidelines is not to go straight to admins or ANIs. My first response is to start a discussion on his talk page or the article talk page, depending. I am getting quicker about asking for help as time drags on and the conduct continues. I think the unwritten policy here - counter to what's written - is that ignoring others is required. And I'm here to say I have tried the other options and I am not going to ignore this behavior, nor should I have to, nor should I have to give up my freedom to edit in good faith because of it. Lightbreather (talk) 18:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Sure, but if I summarize in a sentence or two I'm painting with a broad brush. That you're here on this board quite often is not an exaggeration--Scalhotrod doesn't always say the wrong thing either. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 18:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Drmies, I was staying away from LB, but if the self imposed IBAN was meant to include me "running from the room as soon as LB entered it", then I have not. Since LB started editing porn related articles, our paths have come closer and crossed on a couple of occasions recently. One that immediately comes to mind is the Rebecca Bardoux article. There was a dispute over content in that article that made its way to ANI, while that was going on LB started a discussion on the article Talk page and I responded. I thanked her for efforts and explained why I was breaking the IBAN on that one instance. I also tried to explain that its not as straightforward as she may think to do research on someone from the adult industry. Then I made an edit to the No Personal Attacks policy. Apparently that was horrific timing on my part, but I thought I was being productive with regard to the page and even cordial towards LB by thanking her for her edits. This was followed by LB starting a discussion on my Talk page and saying that I triggered her "stalking feeling". I'm still perplexed by the inferred "Article moratorium while in the middle editing by LB" rule that she keeps alluding to. If me or anyone editing an article while she is doing it bothers her so much, why doesn't she use any of the "under construction" or similar templates? --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 21:16, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I have various sexual articles on my WP:Watchlist, and Measure B is one of them. As the edit history of that article shows, Scalhotrod has been editing that article months before you, Lightbreather. Flyer22 (talk) 05:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

One-Way Interaction Ban

While I agree that both editors have behaved in a less than optimal fashion, Scalhotrod's behavior is Wikistalking, especially his following Lightbreather to the GGTF, but then never taking part in the GGTF after he succeeded in getting Lightbreather to leave it. I recommend a one-way interaction ban imposed by the community on Scalhotrod with respect to Lightbreather.

• Support - As proposer. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you're not only accusing convicting me of stalking LB but claiming that I joined the GGTF for the purpose of getting her to quit the project?!? I do not know what the expectation of "taking part" in the GGTF is, but I have participated on the Talk page, participated in AfDs regarding articles of interest to the project, edited articles of interest to the project, started at least one (its currently a stub, but has survived an AfD), AND there is currently a topic regarding the addition of content regarding an essay that I wrote on the Talk page as a result of interaction between Carolmooredc and myself. By the way, LB's accusations and inferences were deplorable upon my arrival at the GGTF. She essentially reiterated the personal attack I mentioned above on the GGTF Talk page and several project members came to my defense, you included Mr. McClenon. I did not make any accusations in kind when she joined the Pornography Project, in fact I've stuck up for her on at least one occasion.

Has anyone considered that LB just reads way too much into edits, difs, or what-have-you that are innocuous, coincidental, or just plain have a "non-nefarious" explanation to them? Maybe if she stopped being so convinced that I'm "out to get her" that she would not interpret so many of my edits (or those of others LB has had a problem with) as just that. I took her Talk page off my Watch list months ago and haven't looked back since. Our paths cross simply because we are both active Editors. I'm still trying to understand how you can hold me responsible for how another Editor feels when I have no control over that [202]. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 03:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support Less than ideal behavior. Dusti^{*Let's talk!*} 04:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Cannot support one-way IBAN - I haven't seen it working, ever. And that is before I even evaluate the premise of the thread. Will look at it later today (Tuesday). - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 05:53, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - As per Penwhale; the only interaction bans that work and are fair, are two-way bans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as noted frequently (including just above on this noticeboard) - such bans do not work. Collect (talk) 14:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - Questions, actually.

1. I have seen the argument numerous times now, but no explanation. Examples, please, of what happens that makes a 1-way not work? Lightbreather (talk) 15:56, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

2. Am I allowed to vote? Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 15:56, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

1. A One Way IBAN is open to abuse and poking from the editor who did not get the IBAN.

2. Not really, as you are one of the main parties, but your opinion counts and you are able to volunteer to be in a two way IBAN. KonveyorBelt 18:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, I'm not the one who has been stalking and harassing. I do not plan on stalking and harassing. I just want to be able to work without Scalhotrod following me around and without him accusing me of things, without evidence, in inappropriate places. (I won't do that either.) As the person who has had these things done to me, repeatedly, by him, I think the community could start by assuming good faith on my part. If I do start hounding, harassing, attacking him - then by all means - make it a 2-way ban. But there is no evidence here that I deserve that. The thing that I've done that seems to irk everyone the most is making an issue of his conduct, even though there is no policy that says one must ignore a harasser. I've committed the crime of "making drama" - but that is not a crime. I am, in fact, a victim here, and I'm asking for god's sake will someone do something about it? Lightbreather (talk) 05:02, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

And, as I said elsewhere, although I am/was in the middle of improving some porn articles to-do with STDs in the industry, I will happily leave the project and walk away from those articles, if he will just leave GGTF - which he is not really active in - so I can return to a preferred project/subject area with editors that I'd like to work with. Lightbreather (talk) 05:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• involved oppose Lightbreather's new area of focus is pornography, an area that Scalhotrod has been editing in for a very long time. LB is making a decent number of policy proposals, and article proposals in a relatively large number of articles, and this proposal would effectively push scalhotrod out of the area. (Which is ironic considering LB's allegations of being pushed out of the GGTF). IF the Iban were 1) bidirectional and 2) construed as to not cover commenting on RFCs and other proposals created by each other (but restricted to not commenting about eachother directly) I could support that. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:37, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

If it would help, I would be happy to leave WP:PORN if Scal will leave WP:GGTF. However, I have a handful of porn articles I'm working on that I would like to finish. Lightbreather (talk) 22:08, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I think you're a GREAT addition to the Porn Project; please continue to work on the articles. The edits you've made to the Measure B article alone are worthy of praise. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:32, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Enough with the interaction bans already. —Xezbeth (talk) 21:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment:It seems the accused and the rest of us are expected to accept that "IMO, he doesn't have much respect for women" is a mere "aspersion" (see the uses made of this word above), something very mild compared to the utterly unacceptable personal attacks of accusing somebody of having "paranoid tendencies", and perpetrating vandalism and plagiarism. Personally I would much rather be accused of having paranoid tendencies than of not having much respect for women, though I accept that many others might well prefer it the other way round. But it seems simply offensive to all women (and to all men who have female loved ones) to imply, however unintentionally, that not having much respect for women is a minor matter compared to vandalizing an article or putting a bit of plagiarism into it. There is also the problem of the (presumably unintended) intimidating/censoring effect on others, given the context is a male working on porn-related articles, an area that I have no desire to edit anyway, but which I would never dare get involved with even if I did have such a desire, precisely because of fear of that kind of accusation. While checking a potential opponent's block log (as I normally do before deciding whether to risk getting into a dispute with them), I recently came across a case in which a similar (though more wounding) accusation was made a few years ago by a female editor against a male one working on porn-related articles. She got banned for 3 months, reduced to a week after she apologized. He accepted the apology, but a month later he stopped editing, leaving a note saying that maybe he would resume at a later date under a different name (I have no way of knowing whether he did or not). In that kind of context, to ignore such accusations as supposed mere aspersions thus seems like a second reason for deep dissatisfaction with the way the accused has been 'interogated' here.Tlhslobus (talk) 00:20, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Two points: My comment was made in an appropriate forum, at an ARE, of which Scal was notified, specifically discussing Scal's (and my) behavior. Also, I made clear that what I said was my opinion about Scal. Scal's comments are often at inappropriate forums, where I am not notified, and presented as fact - not opinion. Lightbreather (talk) 01:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

You may well be partly or wholly right, LB. You certainly have not had any charge properly formulated against you, let alone been given an adequate chance to defend yourself against such a properly formulated charge, and as such you have not yet had anything remotely resembling due process. (And by the way, my apologies for initially putting "Involved support" behind the two-way ban proposal before I quickly realized it was inappropriately premature on my part given that you had not yet had any kind of due process, and changed it to "Comment").

The comment here initially had nothing to do with the current two-way ban proposal, but appeared as a protest against both an aspect of the way the accused had been treated in the 'interogation' (not by you), and the way the question of 'disrespect for women' and accusations thereof had been (presumably unwittingly) trivialized in the proceedings (again not by you), including in the context of its potential for intimidating/censoring other male editors of porn-related articles.

In the context of the two-way ban proposal (see below), I am simply pointing out (in response to the "where?" question which you asked the proposer of the two-way ban immediately after he proposed it) at least one place (perhaps the only one?) where a basis for 'response with provocation' may lie. I am also concerned that some people around here (possibly, but not necessarily, including you) do not seem to appreciate how non-trivial is what you said about the accused. I might add that the (admittedly more wounding) accusation that lead to the above-mentioned 3 month ban was, at least to the best of my recollection, also made in an appropriate forum (an ANI, I think - Correction: It was made on his Talk Page, after indicating in the ANI that she would be explaining her concerns about him on his Talk Page) by a woman who felt harassed, although there were of course differences too. However none of this is to suggest that you are 'guilty', merely that you may well have some kind of case to answer, though, as already mentioned, no case against you has yet been properly formulated, and I have no intention of trying to formulate one myself (which would probably be inappropriate, given that, as I've already pointed out below, I've been involved in recent disputes with you, some of which may not yet be over). Tlhslobus (talk) 12:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Involved oppose: I'm the 'T.' mentioned in the conversation that lead to this ANI. I fully intended to stay out of it as usual (I don't think I've ever commented on an ANI before) until disturbed by certain aspects of the above 'interogation' (see here). As my concerns were not mentioned until now, I don't really feel the accused has really had the benefit of 'due process' (also known as a fair trial). Plus I fear the potential consequences of simply ignoring the concerns I mentioned above. I also suspect there may well be much wisdom in the comments of Gaijin42 and Penwhale. I should however point out that I'm not entirely un-involved, and therefore presumably not entirely unbiased, as I've been involved in a couple of recent disputes with LB, so-far relatively mild (but not all that pleasant, and not yet clearly over). I do try to make allowances for the difficulties often faced by female editors in Wikipedia (which presumably at least partly contribute to their massive under-representation here), but I doubt if that can ever fully offset the biassing effects of being in a dispute with somebody.Tlhslobus (talk) 00:20, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. I view Scalhotrod as very pro-pornography. And I view Lightbreather as very anti-pornography, as recently as this discussion where the two of us have debated WP:Least vs. WP:Primary topic; this debate is because of an explicit sexual lead image at the Fellatio article. So, in my opinion, the two of them together help bring balance to the pornography articles. Giving one of them free rein to edit an article without opposition to whatever viewpoint that editing might be leaning toward is not a solution. And I reiterate that these (my assertion of very pro-pornography vs. very anti-pornography) are my views of how these two editors view pornographic material, or rather simply explicit sexual imagery/content if one wants to call it that. I am all for putting the WP:Offensive material guideline ahead of the WP:Not censored policy, but only when it makes sense to do so. Flyer22 (talk) 05:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment - For the record, I do not consider myself "pro-pornography", but what I do attempt to do is stick up for those that are underrepresented or misunderstood by mainstream society. And its because of my past work and association with people in the Entertainment industry (mainstream and adult are far more linked than outsiders realize) that I work on porn and other Entertainment related articles. This is also, to some extent, why I joined the Gender Gap Task Force. Granted, I discovered its existence through interaction with LB, but I joined it for sincere reasons. If LB wants to ridicule me or make accusations about my motives, its seems like a poor place to do it considering what the project is trying to accomplish. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 20:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Note: Lightbreather responded to my above comment on my talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 03:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support either option or at least a warning: It's ridiculous that editors can get a bee in their bonnet about some other editor, appoint themselves guardians of Wikipedia and just follow editors around like that. If they are doing something that bad, take the diffs to an admin or ANI. Editors are only human and will soon enough lose their tempers over it, though just as many will just quit the project. Let's read again: (Wikipedia:Harassment#Wikihounding: Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Post one dif after the topic ban where Scal in any way inhibited LB's work. There aren't any, let alone the multiple one's required to be hounding. The definition actually much better fits what LB tried to do with her tit for tat joining of the Porn Project. Capeo (talk) 13:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Capeo, Scalhotrod and I were topic banned in the middle of July, and he has harassed or attacked me at least five times since then, as the diffs in my request show.[203]

1. Starting a discussion on another editor's talk page, accusing me of being a WP:SOCK (policy violation) is a PA:[204]
2. Following me to GGTF and joining it less than 48 hours after I joined is WP:HOUNDING:[205]
3. Starting a discussion on his talk page, pinging other editors, and insinuating WP:CENSOR (policy) and revisionism is a PA:[206]
4. Considering that others - including admins - asked him to back off and that Scal himself says he is following a 1-way ban, but then editing a page within 10 minutes of me on an article is WP:HOUNDING:[207]
5. Telling another editor on his (Scal's) talk page that I am paranoid is a WP:PA:[208]
6. Closing said discussion and calling me a [209]] (after I asked him to stop doing such things) is a PA:[210] Lightbreather (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

1. Wondering if you may sock to get your way is not a PA. Not even close. It's not even an accusation strictly speaking. Again, people are allowed to bring you up in conversation. 2. Joining the GGTF is not hounding and, doubly, no consensus found it to be hounding. Nothing Scal did inhibited your ability to do anything. 3. Again, people can talk about you so long as it isn't a PA. I don't know how I can impress this on you any further. 4. IBanned editors are allowed to edit the same article. 5. The paranoid quip was unnecessary but one can see where that comes from. Looking at your talk page it seems you accused another regular of stalking you a few days ago. That's about the only thing that comes close to PA though. 6. More of the same. You seem to think your entitled to go to somebody's talk page and start throwing accusations around and not get a response or have the discussion closed. You're not. If you just concentrated on editing like you have been recently (without issue in the main area where your supposed stalker edits I might add) none of this would be going on right now. You initiated it based on a voluntary IBan violation that actually wasn't one. Sticks had been dropped up until that point. Capeo (talk) 20:35, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Seems like a textbook case of Wikihounding. This type of behavior is very damaging to the project as it typically drives away contributors. Kaldari (talk) 00:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support both, but prefer 2-way. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support, but prefer two-way ban as first choice. I've posted a support in the section below with diffs showing how Scalhotrod followed Lightbreather to the gender gap task force, and how she subsequently withdrew from it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose For the same reasons stated below. Capeo (talk) 15:25, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

1. Oppose Reviewing another users edits if you judge them to be problematic is not stalking. Wincent77 (talk) 20:10, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support, to stop the wikistalking and wikihounding. Softlavender (talk) 07:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Two-Way Interaction Ban

On further review, I see that, while Scalhotord is Wikistalking Lightbreather, Lightbreather is responding to provocation with provocation. Propose a full symmetric interaction ban with the usual exceptions to be narrowly interpreted. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support as proposer of alternative. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Responding, yes, but where am I responding with provocation? Is ANI not the appropriate place to hash out the details of a dispute? Is there a policy that says that I must ignore others' provocation? Lightbreather (talk) 22:13, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I've reviewed WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE. It says: "Administrators have wide latitude to use their permissions to stop misconduct and damage to the encyclopedia; for example, an editor who is making personal attacks, and does not stop when you ask them, may be warned by an administrator and subsequently blocked." I have asked Scal to stop so many times I have lost count. He was warned by an admin to stop. I'm not asking that Scal be blocked - but a 2-way is uncalled for. Lightbreather (talk) 22:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Re 'where's the response with provocation?', see my earlier comment here. Tlhslobus (talk) 00:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose without modification. If Lightbreather is prohibited from commenting on WP:PORN and related essays, and Scalhotord is prohibited from commenting on GGTF and related essays, it might be workable, although I can't say I would support it. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:20, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Wait, who is stalking whom here? LB's condition that Scal leave the GGTF and she'll leave the Porn Project is a straight up admission that she only went to the Porn Project, knowing Scal's involvement in it, to make a point. And LB's accusation of Scal having no respect for for women simply because of the areas they edit in is a far worse PA than anything Scal said in the diffs above. Capeo (talk) 12:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

After Scalhotrod followed me to GGTF, I left GGTF and joined two projects: Feminism first, on 31 July, and Pornography second, on 1 August. If I were stalking Scal, I would've joined WP:PORN seven months ago. He joined GGTF within 48 hours of my joining it, after months of following me, harassing me, and accusing me of policy violations in inappropriate forums and without evidence. Trying to twist one instance of joining a project that someone else belongs to into an instance of stalking is distraction. Lightbreather (talk) 18:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

"Trying to twist one instance of joining a project that someone else belongs to into an instance of stalking is distraction." I'm assuming you didn't post that to be intentionally ironic correct? Why exactly did you join a project that you knew was the main area of activity of someone you so vociferously wanted to avoid then? Honest question. Capeo (talk) 18:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

If the ONLY interaction Scal had ever had with me was to join a project after I'd joined it and mentioned it somewhere else, I wouldn't be here. That action was only part of a larger, months-long pattern of harassment and PA, which I have documented here and elsewhere.

You didn't answer the question. You felt like you were being stalked yet your instinct was to go start editing in the area your claimed stalker is mainly active? That's not the actions of someone seeking to be left alone. In fact that's the actions of someone hoping to spark a reaction. Look, you two had a nasty content dispute and you were both rightly topic banned over it. There were no IBans and there was nothing in place to stop anybody from talking about anyone else which, by the way, people are completely free to do so long as PA's aren't involved. You can't just tell people to stop talking about you and call it stalking if they don't. During the height of the civility kerfuffle there were lots of people talking about you. So then we get to Scal joining the GGTF, a project that suddenly became the center of Wikipedia and had an influx of new members and activity. You took your ball and went home. Scal stayed and wasn't a source of disruption. You claimed stalking but consensus wasn't even close to supporting that claim. You join the Porn Project and start drafting and editing anti-porn oriented articles. Scal supports your good work. There's no drama for months while you work in an area frequented by someone who agreed to a voluntary I-Ban. Then Scal edits and article on his watchlist that you happen to be editing. Something allowed by an I-Ban, voluntary or not by the way, and you go to his talk page and claim stalking again and, shocker, drama ensues. The last couple months show one person who has moved on from a past conflict and another who hasn't let it go. Capeo (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Involved oppose: As argued above (see here), this would currently involve punishing LB without any semblance of due process. Tlhslobus (talk) 12:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: Given that nobody has yet been found 'guilty' of anything, it's arguably a bit premature of me to make the following suggestion (and perhaps also optimistic, and utterly naive), but what I hope to eventually see coming out of this dispute is an admission by both sides that at least some of their behaviour has been inappropriate, that both sides apologize for that inappropriate behaviour, and express what Catholics (of whom I was one until about 40 years ago) call a firm purpose of amendment, and that both are then let off with some kind of formal caution from the community that is recorded here but does not necessarily go onto their block logs. However I am totally inexperienced regarding ANIs (and hope that I won't find myself anywhere near another one for a long time to come), so it may well be that this suggestion is far too naive to deserve your serious consideration, let alone for any of you to expend energy working to try to bring about such a resolution (and if so, my apologies for wasting people's time with it). Tlhslobus (talk) 12:53, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support: Following to GGTF clinched it for me. Clearly stalking. I see nothing lost and everything gained from separating these two. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:19, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Is it so hard to believe that an editor became interested in a project through interaction with another editor? How long should Scal have waited to join the task force after noticing that LB had joined? Powers ^T 12:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support two-way ban as first choice. Scalhotrod clearly followed Lightbreather to the gender gap task force, causing her to withdraw from a project she would otherwise have been active in. I invited Lightbreather to join on 27 July. She joined a few minutes later at 02:55, 27 July, and posted her first comment to the talk page at 16:38, 28 July. Scalhotrod joined less than an hour later at 17:24, 28 July, and opened a new section to introduce himself. Lightbreather immediately expressed concern that he had joined, and highlighted previous interactions between them. Whole exchange here.

  A few hours later, Lightbreather left the task force; she explained why here and here. I'm supporting a two-way ban as first choice because it's in both their interests to stay away from each other. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:02, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Scal is already observing a voluntary ban, has been for months, and has had no issue with LB even though she followed him to the Porn Project to goad a reaction which she finally got when she went to his talk page recently over absolutely nothing. Capeo (talk) 15:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

As the evidence shows, he is not observing his voluntary ban. If he were, I wouldn't be here, and there is no policy that says I am required to ignore harassment and PAs. Lightbreather (talk) 18:41, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I was observing it as I understood it. But it wasn't until yesterday (September 24th) that I read the guidelines for an Interaction Ban. Since the Iban was self-imposed, I was going by what I assumed the conduct should be. When I reviewed it, I confirmed that it does allow Iban Editors to edit the same article. I also saw that it includes not making comments about the other User "anywhere on Wikipedia". Granted, I understand the logic behind it, but I was not aware of it. Then again, if LB had not come to my Talk page and started a discussion, there wouldn't have been anything for me to comment about. I'm starting to appreciate why so many people are against 1-way Ibans. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 19:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Besides the problem already mentioned (in my above "Involved Oppose") of punishing LB without due process, another problem with a two-way WP:IBAN is the damaging effect it will have on the balance in porn-related articles. Flyer22 has already pointed out that LB plays an important role in balancing those articles. In her comment on this on Flyer22's Talk Page, LB has said that she is not offended by all porn (and as such I think it is misleading to see here as "very anti-porn") but that the articles tend to be seriously imbalanced towards the pro-porn perspective - I don't know whether that's true, but I'd be amazed if it wasn't, given the huge over-representation of males among Wikipedia editors. A 2-way ban, while superficially 'balanced' in theory, will merely further re-inforce this imbalance in practice, as inevitably happens if you apply equal number of hits to a 90% majority and a 10% minority. Under a 2-way IBAN, in effect Scal can't revert LB's edits, but there are many other males who can, while LB can't revert Scal's edits but has very few females to do it instead (and she can't even mention that he's made an edit that needs reverting). It will also send out a message to the porn industry that they can get rid of female critics on Wikipedia by simply getting one male to pick on each female editor, and then get both given a 2-way IBAN (I'm NOT suggesting Scal is working for the porn industry; I am suggesting that the porn industry is smart enough to take advantage of any mistake we make here; indeed so is every other industry, organisation and institution that would like to see less criticism of itself on Wikipedia). Tlhslobus (talk) 01:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Tlhslobus's comments directly above derivative of Flyer22's observations. Softlavender (talk) 07:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Extreme and Systemic Disruption / WP:LEGAL

Discussion

Note that the following is not an editor dispute as Krzyhorse22 and myself have no interaction history in articles. Krzyhorse22 has wasted untold hours of editor time. A wide variety of editors have negatively commented on this editors extremely bizarre and aberrant behavior patterns, including Baseball_Bugs, The Bushranger, Rsrikanth05, Bbb23 etc. Please observe the following:

• He has taken a particular WP:STALKING fascination with StanTheMan87. He places a warning template on Stan's talk page, on average, of once every 37 hours (19 times in the last 30 days).
• His first three edits on WP were to file ANIs.
• In the 30-day life of his account, he has filed at least (that we can count) 7 ANIs and 3RRs ([211] [212][213],[214], [215] [216]), all of which have been dismissed or archived without action. Here's his most recent: [217]. In most of these he repeatedly demands 'indefinite blocks' ([218]).
• In a variety of WP:CIVIL transgressions he has called other editors "monkey face," ([219]) among a wide variety of other invectives.
• In violation of WP:LEGAL he has said that he has contacted the CIA regarding another editor's edits. ([220])
• In possible violation of WP:LEGAL, he has insinuated he, himself, is a CIA agent here to enforce copyright laws. ([221])
• In violation of WP:VAN, and in apparent retribution against me after I asked him to stop his daily tagging of the Mullah Omar file for deletion, he vandalized image file permissions descriptions of two public domain images I uploaded to make them appear to be non-public domain prior to then nominating them for deletion. (here - [222] - he modified an image peremissions file to add "current owner Susan Parish" then nominated it for deletion - the source (http://www.digitalarchives.wa.gov/Record/View/CC3D746502C00F7ADEFF3EE66D57F54A) does not contain the word "owner" or anything similar)
• He has previously been cautioned by DeltaQuad for editing "in a way which conflicts with sockpuppetry policy." ([223])

An ANI was previously filed on 1SEP2014 regarding this editor, however, was archived without admin input. We have tried to bring it up to other admins outside ANI, however, have been told KH22 has made so many "unusual" edits that they don't have time to sort through them. IOW, we're getting absolutely pummeled by this account but, frustratingly, he's spending so much time doing it that he's essentially bought a carte blanche. DocumentError (talk) 20:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the two "Legal" statements, the first one is not a threat at all. He supposedly asked the head of the CIA to verify if a photo was actually a particular terrorist. Not any sort of threat explicit nor implicit. Regarding the second one, saying "you have no idea who I am, I could be CIA for all you know" is also not a threat but a factual statement about the nature of the internet. I could be King Abdullah for all you know.--v/r - TP 20:11, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Got it. Thank you for contextualizing it. Saying "I just called the head of CIA and he said nobody is sure if that guy in the image is the real Mullah Omar" I guess could be something a good faith, rational editor might drop into a routine edit discussion. And, you are correct, his other statement is a factual statement about the nature of the internet; he could be a CIA agent here to monitor Wikipedia for copyright violations. I've edited my OP to move those issues down to the bottom of the list. If I overreacted, I would like to apologize to KH22, and also ask him to please transmit my apologies to CIA director John Brennan and president Obama the next time he conferences with them regarding Wikipedia image file permissions.DocumentError (talk) 20:20, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

That's not a legal threat, but IMHO something more along the lines of WP:CIR if stated seriously, and m:TROLL if not, speaking frankly. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

And, honestly I'm less concerned with the declarations of CIA intervention into WP (which are obviously just insane rants) than I am with the vandalizing of image permissions pages, with templating StanTheMan's talk page 19 times in 30 days, with filing one ANI every 96 hours (all of which are dismissed but have now occupied going on 10 hours of editor time to work through), with the questions of sockpuppetry, etc. And we wonder why there's been a 30% drop-off in editors. Who wants to deal with this lunacy beginning Day 2 of their Wikipedia account history and, when they try to ask for help like StanTheMan has done, are basically told to stop complaining? DocumentError (talk) 23:49, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I never called any editor a monkey face. My first edit was nominating an image of Mohammad Omar which was deleted and so was my first edit. When StanTheMan87 began uploading the same image I was forced to confront him. I didn't file excessive reports, others are filing them against me. I'm not violating Wikipedia by nominating images that are uploaded with vague licenses. I have said to everyone the phone call to CIA was a joke and that was over a week ago, DocumentError and StanTheMan87 are repeating this in their every message. I never vandalized the image description but added the author and other important information [224] [225] that DocumentError failed to provide. To make it short, the accusations levelled against me are untrue. I did not violate any Wikipedia policy. I only added 4 image tags on StanTheman87's page, one warning for 3RR and one regarding ANI case, all of that are Wikipedia's requirement.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 02:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

"So now you either accept that monkey face or go find clear evidence." ([226]) The rest of your pleas of innocence (e.g. not vandalizing image permission files) have already been debunked with diffs in my OP. That said, I note you just undid your vandalism to the permissions description in the last 60 minutes ... basically right after I filed this ANI (see: [227]). You do realize everything on WP is permanent, right? DocumentError (talk) 03:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Me and admin Baseball Bugs were joking about adding this monkey face to an article, Bugs had brought this up and I just replied, read the whole conversation. That's not calling another editor a monkey face. You are deliberately twisting information.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 09:23, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

No you weren't; once again, you're big on talk and short on diffs. DocumentError (talk) 18:42, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Krzyhorse22 is much more than meets the eye. He/she has used arguments supporting his own viewpoint by making outrageous and insulting statements targeting not only an individual in one case ("Because Khalid Hadi was proven to be a liar, we cannot take his story about photographing Mulla Omar as truth") [228], but entire ethnic groups (" Afghans in general are corrupt and they exaggerate too much. The same goes for Pakistanis, Indians, Iranians and etc.") [229]. All of these accusations have been made without no, absolutely no cited sources. In fact, the only time he has managed to find a source to support his weak pov, he used it from me proving a point then twisted it against me, see [230](10th paragraph down) and [231] as well as [232] and [233]. His supposed claim to have contacted the head of the CIA is also ridiculous, as he used that as justifying the removal of an image to suit his own totally whack POV. How can someone like this be considered an impartial editor? StanTheMan87 (talk) 03:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, we Indians are a very corrupt lot. Thankfully he hasn't harassed me for being one. But we'rre so corrupt that we have a dozen Wikipedias in our own language. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 04:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Rsrikanth05, don't take it the wrong way. I was referring to Afghan, Pakistani and Indian sources. They often exaggerate or are based on what villagers believe. For example, Khalid Hadi is an Afghan and claimed that he photographed the spiritual leader of the Taliban in 1993 in Kandahar, Afghanistan. [234] However, all other sources say that Omar was living in Pakistan in 1993. He and his men (Taliban) took over Kandahar in 1994. It's not me, it's the world who calls Afghanistan one of the most corrupt countries on earth. See Corruption Perceptions Index. Besides, this is my personal view and if anyone doesn't agree just don't. Also, read what this American photojournalist think about Afghans. He has been to that country 20 times. [235]--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 09:38, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

"Omar was living in Pakistan in 1993" yet another classic statement from Krzyhorse22, accompanied without a source. Forgive me if I take the word of a cited primary source [236] over a delusional POV pushing internet troll, and his weak, unsourced opinions. StanTheMan87 (talk) 11:01, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

You're getting boring and annoying with your wild rants and personal attacks. Admin DeltaQuad already warned you and DocumentError to stop. [237] I'm not delusional or an internet troll. You uploaded a 1993 image and tagged it a pre-1923 image. [238] What does that explain about you? Why don't you just give up uploading Mohammed Omar's images with false licenses?--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 11:47, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks for not notifying me on your latest embarrassment in Wikipedia. I'm pretty sure you were meant to notify me, if I am correct, as stated by the template, but that slip-up will only show your desperation in crusading all over Wikipedia for the past month. Notice the template says "In most cases...", for it being PD in the U.S only, *sigh and I didn't mention that you personally were the delusional troll, in that second sentence, unlike in the first one, so you can deduce all you want, just hope you don't stay up too late in the night wondering if I was referring to you. StanTheMan87 (talk) 12:18, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

So, once again, everyone is finger-wagging and looking sternly at KH22 who now appears doe-eyed and reticent. And then this thread will be archived and, once again, he'll be back to template-bombing talk pages, vandalizing image permissions descriptions, declaring he's talking with the CIA/KGB/Whomever about user edits, and filing an ANI once every 96 hours, just like every other time we've been through this circus. Good job, guys. I give up. DocumentError (talk) 18:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

@DocumentError: You might or might not be right. However, if you opened a subsection with a proposed response, people might vote or not vote for it. For a start, you might propose a ban on him bringing stuff to AN/I. If you feel that he is a sock or something, try WP:SPI. Kingsindian ♝♚ 21:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Good points, both, Kingsindian.DocumentError (talk) 21:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Community sanctions?

Should Krzyhorse22 be subject to the following sanctions: (a) a one-way WP:IBAN on StanTheMan87 [due to templating StanTheMan's Talk page 19 times in 30 days and calling StanTheMan87 "monkey face" etc.], (b) a ban on posting to ANI [due to filing 6-7 dismissed ANIs in 30 days], (c) ban on claiming he's been consulting with police or intelligence services about WP during edit discussions [the CIA specifically, but including all of them, including the U.S. Postal Police and the El Paso County sheriff's office]? DocumentError (talk) 21:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support as per nom I support sanctions A, B & C. DocumentError (talk) 21:46, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment The guy seems to be a prolific tagger of images for speedy deletions, though I have no idea if that is good or bad, since these images could have copyright restrictions for all I know. I see a lot of templating, though only 7 (not 19) on StanTheMan87's page. Calling him "monkey face" was obviously uncivil. As to the CIA comment, why not just laugh it off by saying that "my brother is the president", or something like that? You don't have to continue arguing with him over the Mullah Omar image. Just disengage. My suggestion is to try WP:DRN or WP:RfC or WP:3O regarding the Mullah Omar image, and use WP:SPI for any allegations of socking. Kingsindian ♝♚ 22:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
  • For the record, I repeat, I didn't call anyone a monkey face. I was only telling either we add the monkey self-portrait, which I called monkey face, or leave the article without an image. About the images, they are obviously protected under US copyright law and cannot be uploaded to Wikipedia. StanTheMan87 keeps re-uploading the same image after it gets deleted. [239] Therefore, I'm not the trouble maker, and putting me under sanction is fundamentally unfair.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 02:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

As per the diffs above in the discussion, he has been vandalizing file permission descriptions to give the appearance that they are not PD as a preface to tagging images for deletion. So, IMO, I'd say that's bad tagging. As for the templates, I believe Stan has deleted some of them so his talk page isn't totally trashed. You'll need to comb through the edit history on Stan's Talk page. But let's set those 12 aside for a moment and say they don't exist. Are you saying that 7 templates in 30 days, coupled with name-calling and 6 ANIs (all dismissed) against a single user is generally good behavior and not warranting a WP:IBAN? Also, how does Stan "disengage" from having his Talk page Template bombed? Disengagement is fine advice in content disputes. This isn't a content dispute; this is an editor exhibiting extremely abnormal and aberrant behavior that has crossed into the realm of the surreal and bizarre. (talk) 23:36, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I did not say anything about the bans, because I do not know enough. It seems some of the stuff he tagged was deleted, like the many things he tagged on Mohammad_Waleed's page. As to 7 vs 19, the link I gave listed all the contributions in User talk space, so it shouldn't miss any templates. I agree that even 7 is a bit too much. About the pictures, at least one picture by Stantheman87 he tagged seems to have been deleted. Kingsindian ♝♚ 23:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. DocumentError (talk) 01:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Weak Support IBAN. A bit too much tagging of the same user's pictures. This is illustrative. Surely he can find other stuff to tag. Kingsindian ♝♚ 00:04, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

You make no sense, the tagging on user page is part of the deletion process. This allows other editors (especially admins) to see how many images were uploaded and deleted. Therefore, it serves as evidence and is recommended. The guy keeps re-uploading the same image after it gets deleted. You're saying just walk away and let him continue. StanTheMan87 deserves to be blocked because he's deliberately uploading and re-uploading unfree images under false licenses. [240] Uploading unfree images is a serious issue in the United States, where Wikipedia is based. Others have also reverted him [241] for using mirror sites as sources. [242] --Krzyhorse22 (talk) 04:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is your most recent nomination of Mullah Omar: [243]. I encourage anyone participating in this discussion to read it so they can get a full context of what you're doing. You have been absolutely pathological about getting this clearly public domain image deleted in a way that, by any common sense evaluation of the situation, would lead one to believe you have a very serious IRL COI. DocumentError (talk) 04:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

That image was created in 1993 by a 10 year old Afghan kid [244], and the uploader tagged it as a pre-1923 image [245] and now he changed it to pre-1978 image. [246] Those license tags are obviously inapplicable. Also, just because it appears at the Rewards For Justice site [247] doesn't make it PD.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 05:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

On the contrary, if you read WP:IBAN, it makes perfect sense. There are many other images on WP. You tagged a lot of them correctly, like the ones by Mohammad_Waleed. Keep doing that, instead of focusing on one editor. What does the Sam Smith image have to do with Mullah Omar? This increases suspicion of hounding. Let it be, and raise the issue on a relevant forum, instead of following one person's contribs. Kingsindian ♝♚ 13:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not reporting StanTheMan87 or anyone else. Others are reporting me. I'm simply nominating images that don't qualify to be in Wikipedia, and there are admins who specialize in that area. WP:IBAN has nothing to do with nominating images. WP:HOUND also doesn't involve nominating images. In fact, they're hounding me by filing frivolous/poorly-based complaints everywhere.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 16:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support; Krazyhorse22 has become a drain on the time of Wikipedians and it needs to stop. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:32, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• No support - I'm being bullied by StanTheMan87 who was created in August this year [248] and DocumentError who was created in November of last year [249] but has been used as a sleeper account until recent. The Bushranger has been taking their side since the beginning. DocumentError and StanTheMan87 should stop filing malicious reports about me everywhere and then I won't become a drain on the time of Wikipedians. This case obviously proves that there are many people in Wikipedia becoming obsessed with me. I'm not a celebrity or anything. I joined to nominate image that was uploaded by StanTheMan87 with false license. I don't understand why do you want to stop me from nominating such image? Admins had already checked that I'm not involved in sockpuppetry but can the same be said about DocumentError and StanTheMan87?--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 03:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment Making accusations against other editors without providing any evidence is not going to help your case. BTW your account was created in August of this year so you should also be careful of stones and glass houses. MarnetteD|Talk 04:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The evidence is that they both show up together everywhere, leave the same lengthy comments, edit the same articles, upload images the same way, and do just about everything else the same, including their attitude towards me (being so aggressive and exaggerating everything). About me, I created this account to nominate an unfree image of Mohammed Omar that I came across, when the image was deleted so was my first edit. I then nominated other unfree images which were all deleted by admins. [250] I'm not using my account to disrupt Wikipedia but improving it. The question remains, can an admin explain if whether or not StanTheMan87 and DocumentError are involved in WP:SOC or WP:MTPPT?--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 04:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

And there's another disruptive lie ("they edit the same articles"). Here is the editor interaction analyzer output - [[251]]. I have edited close to 100 articles on WP and only overlap with StanTheMan87 in one (and my first edits to that one article were yesterday). DocumentError (talk) 05:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

You've previously accused me of being Andrew Hughes (attorney) ([252]), and a variety of other people I've written WP:BIOs about, both living and dead. If you don't want to be "a celebrity," you should behave in a slightly less outrageous way. As of now, you're essentially the WP version of Gene Simmons. DocumentError (talk) 04:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Just because someone makes one small mistake doesn't mean everything he says is a mistake. The other day you guys accused me of being User:Maxforwind but that was proven as a mistake. I don't care what people think of me.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 04:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Huh? DocumentError (talk) 05:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Please, I wish for admins to weigh in on this discussion, as this was the cause for Krzyhorse22's creation.[253] StanTheMan87 (talk) 14:52, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support after seeing what looks very much like an unsubstantiated accusation of sockpuppetry. --Richard Yin (talk) 16:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
  • You didn't have to remove my comment. [254] Can you explain why you did that? It's interesting, you began editing on September 9 of this year. [255] and you know about "unsubstantiated accusation of sockpuppetry".--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 16:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
    • That was an accident, my apologies. I think there was an edit conflict and I somehow managed not to get the prompt saying there was an edit conflict. --Richard Yin (talk) 17:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
      • As for me knowing that, WP:NPA is not all that hard to read and interpret. --Richard Yin (talk) 17:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
        • DocumentError (the person who started this thread) accused me of being a possible sockpuppet of User:Maxforwind, which proved wrong and then he accused me of being User:Irapart see [256], which again turns out to be an error. [257] I don't get it, why is it ok for others to accuse me but when I suspect someone I get treated as if I'm committing a crime or something.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 19:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

More accusations with no diffs? I never accused you of being MaxforWind. As for accusing you of being Irapart, if anyone actually is believing what you're typing at this polint, they can read this to debunk that notion: [258]. DocumentError (talk) 20:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Does this ring a bell? [259]--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 03:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Did you read it? Nowhere in there did I accuse you of being MaxforWind, or even mention the username "Maxforwind." DocumentError (talk) 05:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Krzyhorse22, the difference (in my opinion) is that DocumentError's "accusation" is a perfectly plausible mistake to make and does not necessarily imply intention. --Richard Yin (talk) 22:53, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

DocumentError states "Drats, you caught us!" That was him replying to my accusation of him abusing multiple accounts. [260] He later attacks me by stating, "Bbb23, KrzyHorse22 is a chronic disruptive account, possible sockpuppet and well-known lunatic..." I ask why call me names when you don't even know who I really am? This is the biggest problem with the internet, there is more of a war going on than peace. Are we making a good example to our children? They are the ones who will be reading this in the future. I don't mind humour but the way I'm being treated in Wikipedia is more like being WP:HOUNDED, possibly based on my belief, political opinion, nationality, location, etc. What happened to Wikipedia:Civility?--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 03:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Are we making a good example to our children? Indeed. Think about the children! DocumentError (talk) 04:32, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support sanctions A & C. I am agaist an ANI ban which sounds a bit too much as a first sanction, I hope the interaction ban is sufficient to stop the issue. Cavarrone 22:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment - There are three (3) editors involved. Me, StanTheMan87 and DocumentError who is advocating for another and reporting me everywhere. If I'm sanctioned these two editors also should be. BTW, I'm not involved in any content dispute or edit war with anyone. I only nominate images that I find having false or vague licenses and there are admins who specialize in that area, they decided if the image qualifies or not.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 06:14, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I am willing to accept a ban on claiming I've been consulting with the CIA. DocumentError (talk) 07:09, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

On September 1, 2014, I stated "DocumentError, it was a joke." That was nearly a month ago, why you keep mentioning that corny line in almost every comment?--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 10:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

That was the first occasion you brought up the CIA. DocumentError (talk) 16:37, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks and false accusations

• Lithistman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• John Barrowman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Talk:John Barrowman (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Lithistman is on a bit of a vendetta, it seems. Despite pleasant collaboration elsewhere, they see fit to place this personal attack at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous: "aving recently started editing the main Landmark article, I'd be willing to bet that many of the editors there would STRONGLY resist any attempt to put a paragraph about this critical documentary into the article". They charge that "many of the editors" object to inclusion of material because it is critical of the Landmark movement: in other words, those editors (I assume that's Randykitty, Tgeairn, Hoary, and me) have POVs slanted toward Landmark and cannot edit neutrally.

That's a bad enough personal attack already, and then follows some more crap at John Barrowman. In a nutshell: John takes issue with the material (really a minor matter in its own right), Spartaz protects, protection runs out, and Lithistman reinstates the material. I see this, I revert, I re-protect, and explain at length on the talk page what, in my opinion, the proper way forward is. Lithistman fills up a talk page with claims of admin abuse. In the meantime, Spartaz clarifies what they hadn't said out loud: that they considered the issue resolved, though there is no formal resolution on the talk page, which kind of leaves me with my pants down--but any admin can understand that invoking the BLP is a valid argument for protection and revert.

Well, you can check the history of the talk page: Lithistman has more abuse and false accusations to offer (such material discussing user conduct is inappropriate on an article talk page), and refuses to go to ANI--no doubt because they realize they don't have a leg to stand on. but I've had it with the rather sickening personal attacks and the disruption. I'm leaving that talk page alone, though they removed my last comment--perhaps someone can restore that, I don't care. And let me add that I did what I did in that article not because I agree with John (I have mixed feelings, as I explained), but because the BLP is to be protected above everything else. But editors who act like this make this very difficult, and I'm tired of it. So here it is: personal attacks of POV editing, disruption of a talk page, false accusations of abuse, and a total disrespect for the BLP. Drmies (talk) 21:30, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• And this little section, they closed as "harassing comments". If I ask them not to make personal attacks, and they call that harassment, what should I call accusations of POV editing, admin abuse, etc? Drmies (talk) 21:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• I won't be offering anything by way of reply here. I stand by every edit I've made on this project, including statements I've made about my experience editing the Landmark article. My work on the project is my reply, so check my contributions for my defense. LHM^{ask me a question} 21:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Your article work isn't explaining your behaviour, however. We have too many editors who think they can behave poorly if they do good edits elsewhere - you don't want to become one of those the panda ₯’ 21:51, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm unimpressed with Lithistman's grasp of the material he is discussing, and I am deeply unimpressed with an editor who apparently has to personalise everything rather than discuss improving articles. I don't appreciate the section on his talk page about me and I would like it removed. Lithistman needs to up his game or he is in for some nasty surprises, especially if he is going to edit in difficult areas like BLP. --John (talk) 21:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Did you see the list of editors they pinged on that talk page to discuss our ongoing admin abuse? How is that not a violation of WP:TPNO? Drmies (talk) 22:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I did. Did you see this and this? Coupled with this, where he gets the name of the source he is edit-warring wrong, I think we have an unfortunate combination of impulsivity and carelessness. I would like to see it stopped but administratively I've done my bit and that can be someone else's call now. --John (talk) 22:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• For people interested in what actually is going on, see the Barrowman talkpage. As for the pinging, I pinged the editors that had established the consensus that you were edit-warring against. Before an administrator takes any action supporting this silliness, I'd encourage you to dig deeper. Much deeper. LHM^{ask me a question} 22:26, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • There is nothing deeper to dig here. No matter whether John has a point or not, they can invoke the BLP and that trumps everything. It's not a recipe to stall all article progress, and if Spartaz had closed that discussion with a consensus (one which John might or might not have agreed with) this might have gone differently. As it is, I am accused of admin abuse (it's right there on the talk page) when I did exactly what the BLP tells me to do as an admin: revert, protect, in the absence of a clear-cut consensus. And along comes Lithistman (still edit-warring in that article) pinging half a dozen people and accusing me of admin abuse--and they refuse to bring it to ANI or to respond here, since, of course, the charge can't stand daylight. And that's on top of the personal accusation of POV editing in that gourous AfD. This, I propose, is the kind of thing that sickens the atmosphere around here. Wanna make this go away? Apologize, for your actions and your words. Drmies (talk) 22:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• And now Lithistman is offering the same lies at an ArbCom case, here. Drmies (talk) 22:51, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid that's entirely incorrect. There has been a clear consensus for the inclusion of the material (and the reliability of the source) as the result of multiple discussions since February 2014, and the current talk page shows this to be true. John's misinterpretation of BLPSOURCES to push his personal POV is legendary, and the community has consistently told him he's wrong and he needs to stop. For background, see the People magazine debacle where John attempted the same bad behavior. The community has neither blacklisted the Daily Mail not has it disallowed the use of nonvontroversial interviews, and in fact, it has supported the use of this source for this purpose. Until just last week, John accepted this consensus but has now returned to the same disruptive editing as before. Unfortunately, several admins, including Spartaz and Drmies have stepped in to support John's involvement, which has led both to my recent block (which was overturned) and now the current block of Lithistman. I'm afraid that the admin community has shown a preference for rallying around their own during a dispute, and in the process, targets regular editors for sanctions using trumped up claims and accusations. As a result of this continuing disruption by admins, we will need to take this to arbcom, as admins cannot prosecute their own nor have they shown the slightest interest in regulating their own community. I personally witnessed this several weeks ago when Drmies was edit warring and John stepped in to close the edit warring report against him, even though John had acted involved in the initial incident report and called for sanctions against the reporter. Both John and Drmies have worked together against Lithistman here, and he is currently blocked because of their tag team behavior. Admins must be held to the same standard of decorum as regular editors. Viriditas (talk) 23:09, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    • That's a long-ass paragraph, Viriditas, full of hot air. Are you really saying that Spartaz and I are responsible for your block? Weren't you blocked last week? I first edited the article and its talk page today, so I'm curious how my actions today caused you to get blocked last week. Some facts, please, or explain how I am secretly able to warp time. Or are you just here to smear some accusations around and get some revenge after you were shown up elsewhere for lack of knowledge and disruptive editing? I know my ass from my elbow, Viriditas. I find this helpful. Drmies (talk) 23:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Now Lithistman got hisself blocked, and leaves with yet another accusation on their talk page: their retirement was my goal. They called this ANI frivolous, and I find nothing frivolous or amusing about being accused of admin abuse and POV editing, with unsubstantiated charges smeared all over the article talk page, my talk page, their talk page, and now the ArbCom request case. Drmies (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I read at the start of this: Lithistman is on a bit of a vendetta, it seems. Despite pleasant collaboration elsewhere, they see fit to place this personal attack at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous: "aving recently started editing the main Landmark article, I'd be willing to bet that many of the editors there would STRONGLY resist any attempt to put a paragraph about this critical documentary into the article". They charge that "many of the editors" object to inclusion of material because it is critical of the Landmark movement: in other words, those editors (I assume that's Randykitty, Tgeairn, Hoary, and me) have POVs slanted toward Landmark and cannot edit neutrally. Minor point: I don't remember having ever edited Landmark Worldwide; if I've ever done so, it would I think have been a long time ago. I have edited Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous. In the recently concluded AfD of the latter, I recommended adding material about the subject matter to the article Landmark Worldwide. ¶ While not defending accusations of bias and also trying not to make them myself, I rather routinely find them directed at me: I normally just yawn and carry on with what I'm doing. -- Hoary (talk) 00:26, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Well, it's hard to yawn sometimes. Lithistman loudly proclaims that my forum shopping was aimed at making them quite--an act of clairvoyance, besides a lie, since I "shopped" at only one forum, this one, and only because they refused to retract their allegations and make their case in the proper place. This user has been engaged in this sort of hitting below the belt for years, under various accounts--editors like Gwen Gale may remember this and so, Hoary, may you. So if you tell me to just yawn--well, I suppose. And I'll yawn at the diatribe below as well: I like the gift as I like the giver. "Potentially facing sanctions"--pff. Drmies (talk) 05:26, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support BOOMERANG. Drmies hasn't cited a single alleged "personal attack" made by Lithistman here or anywhere else for that matter. I encourage everyone to look at the links and diffs and try to substantiate what Drmies is saying, because it's completely impossible. What we have here are several admins working together to target editors who disagree with them, and this is the second instance of Drmies edit warring against another editor and getting them blocked in only the last month. In other words, Drmies was involved in another edit war and decided to file false charges against the other editor in a content dispute. Contrary to what Drmies claims, there isn't a single piece of evidence supporting his claims that Lithistman is on a vendetta anywhere, that Lithistman has made personal attacks, or that Lithistman has disrupted Wikipedia. This is yet another example of Drmies going after people who disagree with them. Just as admin John called for my sanctions when I recently filed an ANI against Drmies for edit warring and adding biased content, and just as John acted involved to close the edit warring report against Drmies to prevent any sanctions from taking place, so too has Drmies attempted to help admin John by reverting and protecting John Barrowman against consensus to admin John's preferred version, and the kicker is that Drmies has admitted doing this. Meanwhile, to distract everyone from the purely disruptive behavior of these two admins, Drmies has filed this frivolous and vexatious complaint to keep our eyes off the ball. Well, it's not going to happen. The facts are clear. Admin John acted involved and blocked me for reverting his edits against consensus. Lithistman showed up to revert to the consensus version and Drmies reverted him and protected the article against consensus. Meanwhile, this ridiculous, baseless report was filed and Lithistman was blocked for daring to challenge two admins who worked together to undermine the consensus generated by the community. There's not a single thing about this report from Drmies that has a basis in fact or evidence and the community should take a stand against two admins working together to violate the rules, twist the policies, and block editors who challenge their POV. Let's face the facts: Drmies is potentially facing sanctions in at least two topic areas right now, one of which is already on the arbcom request page, with very serious allegations being made against Drmies.[261] I think this ANI is another attempt by Drmies to distract the community from his continuing bad behavior, but I just don't think it is going to work anymore. At some point, WP:ROPE comes into play, and there's nothing anyone can do. Viriditas (talk) 02:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Where is the personal attack here? All Lithistman has said, and possibly quite correctly, is that the editors on Landmark article would object to any critical material being added from Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous. If Drmies feels that this applies to him personally, then perhaps he doth protest too much. Looking at the other edits/flaggings/deletion nominations over the past week or so, it would be an easy thing to mistake conscientious editing by a long-time wikipedia editor and one with an agenda. Zambelo; talk 12:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - Can a truely uninvolved admin please step in and end this bickering or figure out what the heck is going on and warn all parties to ratch it down a notch? Thank you, --Malerooster (talk) 13:54, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - User:Drmies, I assume you're going to provide diffs of those personal attacks, yes? I see one linked comment, and it's not a personal attack at all. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• For a timeline of what happened yesterday, see this page, that I compiled after Drmies managed to briefly get me blocked yesterday. LHM^{ask me a question} 15:20, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
  • That timeline should be marked "original research"--there's more mindreading, synthesis, and sophistry there than I've seen in a long time. To cite just one, I didn't question your competence over this Mail/Mirror thing, which is trivial--I question it because of your apparent lack of knowledge of what BLP means, and what edit warring means. And then there was this, where you seemed to think that a primary source becomes secondary if you cite it twice. And this, where you reinstated what was previously pointed out as a copyvio, not just "simply linking to a reprint". Drmies (talk) 16:56, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Hi UltraExactZZ. Sure. But let me note one thing first: LHM continually claims "edit warring against consensus" (in a few diffs below) as if that is an exemption for him to edit war (they reverted three times). That consensus was hardly iron-clad. John claims BLP--and like it or not, BLP trumps consensus. If editors disagree, they should seek recourse one way or another--but not this way.
  • LHM accusing other editors of POV editing in the Landmark matter: "many of the editors there would STRONGLY resist any attempt to put a paragraph about this critical documentary into the article". (Either that, or LHM is a mind reader.)
  • LHM backtracking from that comment with a falsehood ("my comment was clearly a general one") and a non-apology apology: "I'm sorry you felt attacked". Note how LHM expresses that taking civility complaints to ANI is "silly"--as if discussing them in AfDs and article talk pages is the way to go (it is not, as everybody knows).
  • Here is LHM calling John lazy because John does not see a consensus on including the material--note that Spartaz later says on the talk page that "there appears to be consensus", a statement so modified that it is reasonable to accept that John read that discussion (and its lack of formalized consensus/outcome differently.
  • John accused of "misusing his status as an administrator to try and enforce his mistaken interpretation of BLP". Calling John's BLP view is mistaken is one thing, saying he abuses his status as an admin is quite another, and it is not a matter for the article talk page.
  • Now LHM is accusing me (I suppose--"another admin") of "edit-warring against consensus, abusing his tools to protect a non-consensus version". Well, the BLP takes away the edit-warring concern, and since when is one single revert an edit war? how many times has LHM reverted that same edit? Oops: once, twice, three times. (Note their last edit summary: he claims I'm making this personal--showing a distinct lack of AGF as well as mindreading.) In addition, the consensus was hardly as clear as could be (already noted), and protecting a BLP in case of an edit dispute is an admin's job.
  • More mindreading, specious claims of edit warring (this is after LHM had reverted three times, against my single one) and abuse of tools.
  • And here is John being accused of edit warring, and of recruiting me. Well, is this a "recruitment"?
  • Same claim of recruitment and more mindreading. I didn't want LHM blocked.
  • Anyone interested in LHM's "help I'm being oppressed" message? Here's his talk page notice, accusing me of "forum shopping" (which requires more than one forum, I suppose, and I sought only one, the proper one, ANI, which LHM studiously avoids), my mission is to get him blocked (more mindreading), and my RFPP request was "deceptive" (how "deceptive" is this?).
• I'm sure LHM thinks this is all very funny, and Viriditas jumped right on top, didn't he. ANI discussions are silly. Rants and false accusations in bold print on their talk page are OK (again). Unproven accusations of admin abuse made in all the wrong places are OK. I'm banned from their talk page (boohoo!), so they can just say anything they like? Ultraexactzz, is this what you were looking for? Thanks. Drmies (talk) 16:51, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
  • This is pretty much exactly what I was looking for, thank you. Honestly, though, looking at those diffs... most of those statements are not personal attacks, and the ones that come closest are borderline incivil at best. Telling an admin that they are mistaken isn't a personal attack, much as we might wish it were so on occasion. Acknowledging that a group of editors disagrees with the inclusion of a source isn't a personal attack (nor is it an accusation of POV). Calling an editor lazy is pretty weaksauce for a personal attack - but he could have been more civil about it. And yeah, he was on one side of an edit war, and has been blocked and unblocked as a result. Who was on the other side? With whom did he edit war? Saying as much isn't a personal attack. And I believe the forum shopping accusation comes from your report at RFPP, where you neglected to link to ongoing discussions at the article's talk page or at BLP/N (thus, the accusation of deception). In short, I think all three of you (John, LHM, and you) could have handled this better - LHM felt goaded by John's interpretation of BLP, you backed him up (and protected the page yourself, at one point), and LHM edit warred (and was properly blocked for it). I do not believe there is cause for anything other than trouts all around in this case. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 18:39, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
    • "You're abusing your tools" is hardly the same as saying "you're mistaken", UltraExactZZ. And refusing to make the claim in the proper place, and reverting their removal from the improper place, and repeating them again and again in a "forum" from which they have banned me (and John), that's--well, we're on Wikipedia, and you have a trout ready for me, so I won't tell you what it is, but it can be easily modified by "cowardly". Do you, as an admin, ever have to deal with shit like this? And what do you think the net effect of all this is? Some editor screams "I'm being oppressed by an abusive admin" and next thing you there's two more admins who will not be able to act when necessary since they got an entire lynchmob at the ready.

      So, UltraExactZZ and everyone else: did I abuse my magic admin tool yes or no? It's a question this editor refused to ask where it really matters, but it's here now, and dodging it simply means enabling this passive-aggressive wankery. Can editors say this without proof but with impunity? Drmies (talk) 22:42, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

      • Quite honestly, if being accused of abusing your tools is as infuriating to you as it seems to be, then I don't know that being an admin is the right job for you. That sort of low-level grumbling is part and parcel with being an admin, especially here, and ESPECIALLY for admins who are willing to make tough calls. I'm not saying you were wrong to act on that article, I'm saying that I get why your involvement didn't do anything to calm LHM down or back him off of his position. From his perspective, rightly or wrongly, the issue of that source was a settled one. Then an admin comes in and disagrees, and then another admin comes in, guns blazing, backing up the "clearly mistaken" first admin? Yeah, I'd be pissed too. Your involvement might have been technically correct, but it did absolutely nothing to defuse the situation. When asked, LHM almost immediately agreed to wait for the discussion at BLP/N to end before adding the source again. Had John not been the one to revert initially, or had the discussion at the talk page not been so contentious, I'm betting someone (a long-term, well respected admin such as yourself perhaps) could have asked him to back off and gotten a positive response. Instead, we're at ANI. I think this could have been handled better by all parties. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:21, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
        • UltraExactZZ, then just go ahead and close this thread, will you? "Respected" doesn't mean anything to this editor and his little gang of admin abusees, and that that awful shit, those lies, are there on the top of his talk page--what about that? Oh, yeah, let's give users plenty of leeway to slander people on top of their talk page, that's the way to handle civility problems. I wonder if Bbb's comment, below, gives you cause for concern. We're not dealing with one thing against one person, and if the next one of this posse tries to get someone in trouble, I wonder who will help. And do you know what the tactic is? Irritate and accuse, so that they can accuse the admin from being involved when action needs to be taken. So for this thread alone, they can claim to have taken out half a dozen admins. Drmies (talk) 00:04, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
          • It's your thread, boss. I have no objection to a close, and I don't think there's any serious argument for administrative action here. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 02:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I repeat I am not happy with having a section dedicated to me on User:Lithistman's user talk page which has no content and at the same time Lithistman has "banned" me from his talk page. Drmies has removed it (once?) and I have removed it (twice). If he continues to replace it I request a one week block. --John (talk) 16:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
    • John, I'd leave that nonsense alone, before you get blocked for removing a personal attack (gasp!). Also, no, I never removed anything from that talk page. It should be removed, and maybe a passing admin will take care of it. Maybe. Drmies (talk) 17:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• The fact of the matter is that the biggest, by far, and most insidious problem wikipedia faces is that of "civil" POV pushing, hiding behind cries of "admin abuse", "thingism", "catism", "dogism" or whatever the "...ism" of the day is. Until we address that dysfunctional aspect of the site, these stupidly long, pointless threads will continue, because, hell, they're admirable, aren't they? Judge folks by what they say and do, not by which minority or majority group you think they belong to. The ones crying "but... equality..." are generally the ones who don't want, or understand that at all. Disbelievers may examine this page for "gamergateism" etc, to see this invasion, and ponder on what we have become. Begoon ^talk 17:09, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment The lack of good faith displayed at the AfD is glaring for everyone to see, so I'm not going to provide any diffs because I have better things to do, everything is in the AfD. Apparently, Lithistman and Zambelo are unable to imagine that somebody who disagrees with them, may do so for valid reasons. Instead, they must be POV pushers. Zambelo also seems to think that it is exceptional that an editor participates in an AfD, looks at the article under discussion, subsequently goes to articles that it wikilinks to, and then tags those for perceived problems. Instead, they seem to think that such completely normal behavior is a "pattern" and proof of POV. This nonsense is repeated in the ArbCom request. --Randykitty (talk) 18:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

What you say, Randykitty, is perfectly correct. Yet this kind of "you disagreed with me in one place, so must never do so again, anywhere, you "involved" devil, you, or I'll take you to AN/ARBCOM/I" is perpetuated and encouraged. This is the kind of thing we need to deal with, urgently. Begoon ^talk 19:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• I got round to following up a ping to have a look at John Barrowman this morning and have given my thoughts over there. A similar incident blew up in February about exactly the same material. At the time, I said I would look at this when I had the time by finding the same claims in higher quality sources. I never got round to it, but I notice the Daily Mail cites have been replaced or augmented by ones in The Guardian. So how on earth we managed to get from that to multiple talk page threads, a lengthy discussion on the BLP noticeboard, and now to being told that Drmies has a magic 8 ball (that can randomly block anyone with a wave of the magic finger when he's in the mood) is a bit of a mystery. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:43, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
  • That's incorrect. The Daily Mail sources have not been replaced, they've been upheld by consensus and are cited multiple times as reference #2. So your conclusion is in error. I suggest you are looking at a cache version when several admins, including John, Spartaz, and Drmies, were misusing their tools to revert and edit war against consensus, issue user blocks as involved admins, and protect the article to prevent community consensus. Further, this is not an isolated incident; this is part of a pattern of admin behavior that arbcom needs to review. @Lithistman: and myself are collecting evidence to present this problem to the wider community and @The Devil's Advocate: has offered more recent evidence of problematic editing and blocks by Drmies, so the problem is getting worse by the day, not better. In all of these incidents (and the one I brought here earlier in the month), Drmies' response is to blame others and shift the burden. This cannot be allowed to continue. Viriditas (talk) 19:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
• I haven't been following this discussion, and it's a bit painful to read. Of course, Viriditas's baseless vitriol doesn't help. I was first introduced to LHM on Drmies's talk page when he attacked Drmies regarding an edit warring issue at the Landmark article (I wasn't familiar with the article). That rant is archived here. After a whole bunch of hoopla about the issue, Viriditas, LHM's partner in garbage, changed the edit warring policy to essentially say admins who edit-war should be sanctioned just like everyone else. There was no discussion before this change, and I was somewhat flabbergasted and reverted him. He then took it to my Talk page and onward to the edit war policy talk page. LHM quickly jumped in supporting Viriditas and complaining about admins generally (e.g., "it's engrained in the culture of this project that (again, in practice) admins are treated much differently than regular editors with regards to sanctions and blocks"). That discussion is archived here. I stayed out of that discussion despite the fact that I was the one who reverted because I didn't want to fan the flames. Unfortunately, LHM made two edits to the policy, one canceling the other. His intention was to make a point, but instead of doing so in the discussion, he did so in the policy itself. I thought that was WP:POINTy at best, and I said so. His response: "And, quite frankly, I don't care what you think of what basically amounted to a null edit to the policy page. That's your issue, not mine." Things went downhill from there, and I finally bowed out because his attitude was so obnoxious, even when some of his points were valid. BTW, that's one of LHM's core problems. Even when you agree with something he says, it's almost always said in a way that makes you cringe (snarky, coatracky, passive-aggressive). Viriditas's change stayed out of the policy.

My next experience with LHM was when I agreed with him on something. He wanted Sitush unblocked. Again, the problem was in the way he approached those who thought the block should be upheld. LHM's comments attacked just about anyone who disagreed with him. For example, many editors who thought Sitush should not have been blocked in the first instance, still understood why he was blocked and why his comments were deleted; yet LHM wasn't as temperate, accusing the blocking admin of deleting the comments to hide the proof ([262]). But things got worse off of Sitush's talk page after Floq unblocked Sitush, LHM practically fawned on him, while at the same time attacking anyone on the "other side". For example, this attack on Kevin: "So, basically he didn't break a rule at all, and you're just pissed off that you can't just undo Floque's unblock without being desysop'd? Good to know." ([263]). And veiled attacks on Sitush's talk page: "I'd much rather you come back sooner than later because the fact of the matter is, you need to be here while some certain others don't." ([264]). He continued attacking others when the block became the subject of discussion at ANI. "Overturn entirely per DougWeller, as well as Chillum's (per usual) complete misunderstanding of the situation." ([265]) Chillum, btw, was a strong supporter of the block. And he was also against the change to the edit warring policy. So, he had become one of LHM's least favorite admins. Naturally, LHM also attacked Mike V: "Not too surprised to see the blocking administrator refuse to consider the context of the comments, the history of the editor, or anything other than "the letter of the law", in defending the indef block." ([266]) and "As Mike V seems utterly incapable of grasping nuance or subtlety, you probably should have simply told him he was acting like a pedantic fusspot." ([267]) There's more in the same vein, but it's tedious grabbing every one of them.

In my view, the picture of LHM's behavior is not a pretty one. I think his destructive attitude clearly warrants sanctions, but it's not clear to me what those sanctions should be.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The only real evidence of a "destructive attitude" on this page appears in the above comment by Bbb2. Please make a special note of Bbb23's reliance on baseless personal attacks and accusations composed of empty, emotive verbiage devoid of substance, using words like "painful, baseless vitriol, hoopla, fawned, attacking, flabbergasted" and other manipulative attempts at controlling perception. In addition to this failed attempt at public relations, Bbb23's remembrance of things past is entirely faulty (no doubt due to his mouldy madeleines) as his diffs do not say what he claims. For example, Bbb23 claims LHM attacked Drmies, but there is no such attack in the diff provided. The same is true for the rest of Bbb23's diffs—full of abrasive rhetoric, but lacking actual substance. I encourage everyone to look at Bbb23's diffs and decide for themselves. Finally, Bbb23's claim that modifying EW to note that "admins who edit-war should be sanctioned just like everyone else" is a change in our policy is ridiculous. WP:EW applies to all editors, with advanced permissions or not, and making this explicit in the policy had full support from non-admins on the talk page. However, admins like Bbb23, attracted like moths to a flame, took to the policy talk page and attempted to divert and distract the discussion by changing the subject and attacking the editors instead of the problem. Bbb23 successfully thwarted the will of the community in this endeavor, and with the help of his fellow admins, the discussion denigrated into false allegations of canvassing, personal attacks on the motives of editors who made and supported the change, and anything other than the discussion itself. This is the kind of "administration" of Wikipedia Bbb23 supports. I think both Drmies and Bbb23 are deserving of serious sanctions for wasting the time of the community with false accusations against Lithistman. What was Lithistman's "crime" that so enraged these administrators? His "crime" was to question their bad behavior, their edit warring, and their misuse of their authority. Drmies was edit warring on the Landmark page, and reverted Lithistman many times. Why wasn't Drmies blocked for edit warring in this instance, after all, this was the second major edit war Drmies had been involved in just a week after being reported for edit warring on 3RR/N. Because admins like Bbb23 are so very confused about how the edit warring policy applies to admins, I made this explicit in the policy.[268] Bbb23 reverted this, because he truly believes that administrators are exempt from the edit warring policy.[269] And that is exactly why Drmies started this thread. Lithistman's great "crime" (and what Bbb23 has deemed a "personal attack") was to remind Drmies that his administrator rights do not give him the privilege of edit warring against policy. To quote the great and wise Lithistman, "The fact that you've been entrusted with a mop and bucked most certainly does not entitle you to special privilege when editing." I have much more faith in the wisdom of Lithistman than I do in the abuse of our policies exemplified by Drmies actions and in Bbb23's defense of impunity. I think that any honest person who takes the time to read this thread will see where the problem resides. And it resides in the actions and words of Drmies and Bbb23 and all the other administrators who believe the policies don't apply to them. It's time to remind them who runs this community. Viriditas (talk) 09:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I have been aware that John and Viriditas have banged heads before. Having looked at the discussions, John has generally refrained from directly referring to editors and conduct, and focused on policy without singling any specific person out. However, some time back I suggested that if he ever blocked Viriditas, it would cause a drama-fest disproportionate to the dispute in question, and I appear to have been proven right on that count. Still, we can't change the past, what's done is done. All I would say is for people to AGF, suggest that sometimes full protection can be a viable alternative to a block (especially when there's grounds to believe it will result in retaliation), and to make grievances short, to the point and focus directly on article content wherever possible. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:41, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Drmies...I have no idea what is going on...but if you protected the page again to keep out the tabloid source as Spartaz did that was a truly acceptable source for the content and context...a date of birth and an non contentious quote.....that was truly ridiculous. If you have some proof or demonstration that John Barrowman did not make those comments, please add them here or for god's sake people...stop fucking around with that BLP. I am beginning to think this has much more to do with the subject himself and people need to give the fuck up. Seriously. There is no breach of policy for using a tabloid source where the subject has given an interview. If I am wrong...put up or shut up now. (Also...very sorry for being so harsh to someone I truly like here but what the fuck is going on? Seriously?)--Mark Miller (talk) 00:03, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
  • You're wrong. Read WP:BLPSOURCES. There is no exemption for using poor sources where an interview is alleged. Why would there be? --John (talk) 11:53, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

With no claim to experience or wisdom, but simply a fresh pair of eyes. Several of the diffs which Drmies gives to my eyes do not qualify as personal attacks. Some of them certainly do: but LHM seems to have gotten riled up after (a) getting involved a content dispute with an editor who also happened to be an admin (b) a page protection to the WP:WRONGVERSION by an uninvolved admin and (c) getting blocked by a third uninvolved admin. It was simply a coincidence (no sarcasm intended), but with a bit of empathy you can see his paranoia that admins are acting in concert against him. All sides have suffered enough, perhaps it is time to put it behind yourselves? The content in the article has been corrected, so the content dispute seems to be over. Kingsindian ♝♚ 00:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• Seriously. If the content dispute is over...lets just stop now. I came back from my vacation to see a bing to that fucking shit again and I am beginning to think there is something that began this that well meaning admin do not understand. But if I claim it here...surely I will be piled on with enough shit to clog a toilet. Lets move on before we start even more stupidity and hate. Enough. There are limits to this kind of crap. Really!--Mark Miller (talk) 00:28, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Then, instead of rattling of all the bad words you know, close the thread. Drmies (talk) 20:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Overuse of UK

Gigs suggested I bring this here. The background is the debate about using "England, UK" or just "England" (also Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). There was a discussion that Gigs closed with instruction that changes should stop at [270]. I stopped removing "UK". The editor adding "UK" kept adding it. The editor is identified by having a Orange Broadband IP address. I have put some examples in my sandbox, from the last month or so. What to do? Narrow Feint (talk) 22:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Put diff's of the evidence in this report as evidence of the issue as per WP:D&L.

You also need to put the {{subst:ANI-notice}} info on their talk page to advise them that your reporting them here and it might not be a bad idea to advise what their actual IP or username is so we know who were looking at. Amortias (T)(C) 22:19, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The IP changes a lot, maybe every hour. I do not know how to find the last one, can I just pick any? Narrow Feint (talk) 22:36, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Article names are best bet in that case so the IP's can be looked at. Amortias (T)(C) 22:38, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The Orange IP are 2.24-31.*.* 95.144-151.*.* 91.105-109.*.*. A list of pages is in my sandbox, it is a bit big, do I have to copy it here? Narrow Feint (talk) 22:50, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Theres quite a large range of pages there some of which havent been edited in a couple of weeks, 2 or 3 recent examples would be best, if there arent any within the last 48 hours or so it might need to be held off until they edit again. Amortias (T)(C) 22:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I am somewhat familiar with this as I was involved in the initial discussion and I have discussed this on Narrow Feint's talk page. NF says "the editor adding "UK" kept adding it". That isn't really the fact of the matter as a) there was no one editor who was identified as persistently adding it in the first place (unless NF has an editor in mind), b) there seems to be more than one editor at work here, and c) those editors were almost certainly not involved in the discussion that concluded these changes were to stop, so they are probably not aware that they're doing anything wrong. However, at first glance, it looks likely that a lot of these edits are one person using IPs from Salford, so basically we just need to identify those IPs who are adding it regularly or often, and tell them on their talk pages to stop. I did say to NF that I would do that, but I haven't had the chance yet (his list is rather long), and he has decided to come here first. I'm not really sure this is ANI material, not yet anyway. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

On second glance, the Salford editor with the Orange IPs does seem to be the main person doing this, but he uses a different IP every day, only going back to it maybe a couple of weeks later. It's rather hard to find the most recent, and I'm not sure he'd see a warning if we left him one. How do we grab his attention? Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure if this works, but use the articles' talk pages first, since this is a dynamic IP, title a new section, and say something similar to "To Orange IP User who keeps adding 'UK' to articles...". We don't want it to escalate to having a whole city as collateral damage to an Orange rangeblock. Anyone have better ideas? – Epicgenius (talk) 01:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, here goes. These have changed in the last three days. I will have to pause now. The IP that the editor uses keeps changing, but it always an Orange IP. Narrow Feint (talk) 23:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Victoria Derbyshire

| birth_place = Ramsbottom, Lancashire, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Ramsbottom, Lancashire, England, UK

Liam Boyle (actor)

| birth_place = Bolton, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Bolton, England, UK

Jack Bond

| birth_place = Kearsley, Lancashire, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Kearsley, Lancashire, England, UK

Sir Thomas Barlow, 1st Baronet

| PLACE OF DEATH = 10 Wimpole Street, London, England, UK

Natalie Dormer

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Reading, Berkshire, England, UK

Tommy Banks (footballer)

| birth_place = Farnworth, Lancashire, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Farnworth, Lancashire, England, UK

Suzanne Shaw

| birth_place = Bury, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Bury, England, UK

Mark Charnock

| birth_place = Bolton, Lancashire, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Bolton, Lancashire, England, UK

Johnny Ball

| birth_place = Bristol, Gloucestershire, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Bristol, Gloucestershire, England, UK

Cherie Blair

|birth_place = Bury, Lancashire, England, UK

|PLACE OF BIRTH= Bury, Lancashire, England, UK

Ian Aspinall

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Bolton, Lancashire, England, UK

Reg Harris

| death_place = Macclesfield, Cheshire, England, UK

| PLACE OF DEATH = Macclesfield, Cheshire, England, UK

Danny Boyle

| birth_place = Radcliffe, Lancashire, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Radcliffe, Lancashire, England, UK

Hylda Baker

| death_place = Epsom, Surrey, England, UK

| PLACE OF DEATH =Epsom, Surrey, England, UK

Andrew Buchan

| birth_place = Stockport, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Stockport, England, UK

Nellie Halstead

| PLACE OF DEATH = Bury, Lancashire, England, UK

John Spencer (snooker player)

| birth_place = Radcliffe, Lancashire, England, UK

| death_place = Radcliffe, Bury, England, UK

| PLACE OF BIRTH = Radcliffe, Lancashire, England, UK

| PLACE OF DEATH = Radcliffe, Lancashire, England, UK

Alan Ball, Jr.

|PLACE OF BIRTH = Farnworth, Lancashire, England, UK

|PLACE OF DEATH = Warsash, Hampshire, England, UK

The most recent IP is this one [271], which he used today. But he will very likely use a different one tomorrow. He seems to be editing BLPs with an association with his local area, i.e. Manchester / Lancashire etc. Looking at what he does, there's major overlinking there as well as placename fiddling – I suspect he's not very familiar with a number of MOS guidelines and just needs to be informed of what he's doing wrong. But I'm not sure how we can do that if he keeps switching IPs about. Bretonbanquet (talk) 23:44, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Somebody who knows how to make an edit filter could create one that prevents IPs from adding the phrase 'England, UK' to an article. (Could flag or prevent these edits, or send the IPs over to WP:AIV for further review). The page at User:Narrow Feint/sandbox is helpful but it might be more useful to get a list of the IPs used, ordered by date. If we are agreed that these edits are abuse (or at least, unwitting damage on a large scale) it might be better to discuss this at WP:SPI to save the valuable time of ANI. EdJohnston (talk) 03:38, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I mentioned this at the GM project page here Several editors responded and I have left messages on the talk pages of some of the ips. For what it's worth I think the editor knows exactly what he's doing. J3Mrs (talk) 07:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding an edit filter, I don't know if that would be ideal. The issue here is one of controversial systematic edits. The key is that it is controversial whether to include the "UK" or not, and there's no real consensus on it. Adding an edit filter would enforce a format that isn't really accepted as consensus. When I closed that earlier discussion I did feel like consensus was slightly leaning toward omitting the UK after England, but because we were talking about mass systematic changes, the bar is higher and we need more a solid consensus before enforcing one or the other. Gigs (talk) 17:42, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Still overlinking mostly now from the List of people from Bolton and I left a message while he was still editing. J3Mrs (talk) 18:51, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Reverted removal so warned. J3Mrs (talk) 19:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Currently at 95.145.204.239, last edit 15 minutes ago. Narrow Feint (talk) 15:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

If you see him, you warn him. If you wait for someone else to do it, it might well be too late, like today. Include a link to the discussion and mention the closure that Gigs left and explain that whatever the placename format that exists in the article, he has to leave it that way. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:37, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

And again: [272]? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

He is at 2.31.250.67 (talk · contribs) I have left two messages at his talk page, one generic and one template, and reverted several edits (blunt instrument, I know) at [273], [274], [275], [276] and [277]. It has had no effect, as he has repeated an edit to Badly Drawn Boy, diff. Mr Stephen (talk) 22:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know how many nations named England there are, but I'm only aware of one, and since the United Kingdom nearly ceased being such only a few days or weeks ago, I suggest that not only is "UK" unnecessary when identifying a city in England, it's absolutely unwarranted. Besides, anyone on the planet who has any doubt as to the location or identity of any nation named "England" need only click on its wikilink and their confusion will be alleviated. Softlavender (talk) 10:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, this discussion isn't about that. There was a long discussion about UK placename formats, and there was no consensus. So the idea is not to make systematic changes to them, which is what this guy is doing, and others have done and been stopped from doing. Secondly, just because you know that England is a part of the UK, don't assume that everyone else on the planet does too. This is an encyclopedia which exists to inform people, not a reflection of what you already know. Most people know that California is in the US, but nobody's saying that putting "US" in Californian infoboxes is "unwarranted". I'd like to see how that discussion might go. Lastly, the UK did not "nearly cease being such" – had Scotland voted for independence, the rest of the UK would, as I understand it, not have disappeared. Bretonbanquet (talk) 10:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Repeated demands to self-revert

I've been recently under repeated demands to self-revert and allow the insertion of inaccurate information by Kingsindian who has a bit of a (self professed) history for not really listening to proper source-based arguments on the talk page (sample: "I simply ignore"[278]). I don't really know what to make of this as I stated my acceptance of one of the suggested versions -- but this user insists I self-revert to his version (which is, in my humble opinion, a misrepresentation of the sources: bomb squad officials != Ministry of Interior). To boot, there's been battle behavior and article ownership issues from said user since our early encounters. I'm not even going into the issue of repeated source misrepresentation -- which is also a real concern. To the point of self-revert demands, I'd appreciate some administrative help. Perhaps a warning that said user stop using threats as means to get his bold versions on the page. I think the wiki-terminology is 'bold, revert, discuss'. He appears to wish to replace the 'discuss' part with 'I don't want to discuss anymore, you must self-revert!'.[279],[280],[281] (apologies if these are not ordered by time stamp). Regards, MarciulionisHOF (talk) 12:45, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Nothing much to say, except I did not demand self-reversion. I said that if he does not self-revert, I will go to WP:AE. It is a common practice for people in this area to ask people to self-revert, instead of using a big-hammer WP:AE approach. I have no desire to report him per se, but I will, if he continues. If he feels that his actions were fully justified, he can make his case there. Kingsindian (talk) 12:57, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

That is a nice courteous move if someone mistakenly reverted over the allotted number of reverts. I hope others will agree it should not be common for editors to demand others 'self-revert <or else>' to get newly inserted content de-rever-ed. I'd be quite disappointed if others did not reject threat-making in this context. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 16:10, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, Israel/Palestine articles are all under a 1 revert WP:AE restriction, so if you made more than a single revert, it might be a valid suggestion. the panda ɛˢˡ” 17:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Courteous for 1RR. Not so much when there's no 1RR issue and the user wants others to reinsert their contested material into the article. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 18:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

MarciulionisHOF, this is so simple, you need to decide if you are going to self revert. If you don't self revert, Kingsindian will decide if they will follow through and report you to AE. There is nothing to do here at ANI. GB fan 18:34, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you GB fan for looking into the matter. I noticed a lot gets shrugged off on Wikipedia (might be a good thing). In your opinion, would there be something for ANI to request a change in conduct if aggressive behavior continues and there are not 3 demands but 50? At what point (if ever) does ANI have enough interest as to tell someone to 'cut it out'? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 18:52, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

MarciulionisHOF, reverts for no good reason on WP:ARBPIA articles are not a good idea. If you wait for the discussion thread to reach a consensus you would be on safer ground. Kingsindian appears to be saying that the reasoning for your revert is poor. He is entitled to that opinion and it doesn't seem to be a threat. If you are unsure what he means you can ask on the talk page. How does his threat of taking you to AE differ from your taking him (here) to ANI? EdJohnston (talk) 19:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

MarciulionisHOF, there is no magic number where something becomes a problem that must be dealt with. In this case you are both in the wrong, but neither one raises to the level that anything needs to be done. You both need to discuss the edits and quit reverting until consensus is reached. If consensus can't be reached try Dispute resolution. GB fan 19:47, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Just, for everyone's information, I made the revert myself, slightly changed from the original, which seems to be acceptable to all, including MarciulionisHOF. It means I can't make another revert for 24 hours, but I considered that a lesser evil than going to WP:AE. Others can continue the drama here if they wish. Kingsindian ♝♚ 21:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you EdJohnston. ANI seems good for public clarification on (hopefully) undesirable activity. Isn't AE a place to request banishment rather than clarification? On point: It is my humble opinion, that should anyone embrace self-revert demands as a scare tactic (not as courtesy 1RR reminders), they would be hurting discussion and, certainly, would detract many capable contributors. While I don't see a clear clarification, the editor involved stepped away from this activity -- which is a step in the right direction. Thank you Kingsindian for listening to reason. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 22:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The above comment is remarkably inept. If MarciulionisHOF cannot understand this perfectly simple discussion, or worse, if they can understand it and purposefully post the above missing-the-point commentary (with unhelpful external links), it would be better for the project if they kept well away from contentious topics such as ARBPIA. Johnuniq (talk) 03:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: why so hostile? (per "remarkably inept"). Is this the language you used before you became an admin as well? If there's something unclear with my perspective, I'd be happy to explain/rephrase/discuss/whatever works. Furthermore, if there is a point you feel I've missed (I paid attention but emphasized what I see as important for the long term), feel free to clarify what it is. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 04:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not an admin and I'm not hostile—it's best to speak clearly even if that means bluntness must be used. The comment is inept because it misses the point that you had no reason to post at ANI, and Kingsindian has done you a favor, and posting links to silly images is most unhelpful. Do you know what "listening to reason" means? Johnuniq (talk) 05:05, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm new here so you'll excuse me (I hope) for asking community input on blunt incivility and other "shenanigans" as well as problems in development. I always say it is better to make note of bad ideas -- e.g. "Self-revert, wait 24 hours, and revert."[282] -- early than allow them to become a norm. Do you have another/better location to suggest? (I came here following a link on the DR page).

Apologies if you do not share the sentiment that we are visual beings. Images help me remember (and inspire to do better). MarciulionisHOF (talk) 06:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC) + MarciulionisHOF (talk) 07:18, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

In the above, Panda, GB fan and EdJohnston have provided advice that should have led you to self-revert and request closure of this section. Instead, you have grossly misinterpreted and insulted the person who did you a favor ("Thank you Kingsindian for listening to reason"), and now you are posting links of what you think are "bad ideas" by Kingsindian—why? do you hope to have them sanctioned? Johnuniq (talk) 07:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: 1RR concerns do not apply. According to admin GB_fan, it is possible that we were both in the wrong. There is no clear note on when repeated "self-revert or go to AE" (not 1RR related) comments pose a problem but I hope this thread will serve as protective measure; that anyone embracing such ideas will take a step back. I have also asked for a sanity check on my last relevant argument from an admin (the issue started on another note, when I removed material from a source widely rejected for the infobox). Anyway. Please re-read the rest of what I have written. You attack me, possibly against the desire of your friend[283], and grossly misinterpret my words. I expressed a sentiment that I am against sanctions when a simple "this is not a good idea" comment can be made to prevent poor long term conduct. I hope others will embrace this approach over the ignore until very bad one. It is my experience that it can do wonders. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 13:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

My head swirls at reading all of MarciulionisHOF's posts. The posting of pictures in links is one of the more egregious examples of passive/aggressive behaviours that I've seen here. As you are new, you would not be familiar with the Arbitration Committee and their rulings. Certain areas in Wikipedia are so contentious that they have been referred to ArbCom. The committee are a group of highly trusted editors, usually administrators, who have been tasked to deal with articles and topics where a great deal of infighting has occurred. The rulings were laid down so that editors can largely edit in peace as any problematic editors can be sent to [{WP:AE|arbitration enforcement]] and dealt with as the admins deemed necessary. Their request that you self revert was exactly a "this is not a good idea" comment, just a more forceful one. You had two simple options: self revert or explain yourself at WP:AE. Whether you would have been sanctioned at AE is another matter. Blackmane (talk) 14:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• User:MarciulionisHOF, you hope this thread will serve as protective measure? The essay Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass might have been written for you. I hope the link to it will serve as a protective measure against further nonsense. Also, when Blackmane calls your posting of pictures in links "one of the more egregious examples of passive/aggressive behaviours that I've seen here", I suppose he probably hasn't seen the extravaganza of passive aggression and grudge-hugging through "clever" links on your userpage. Please review WP:BATTLEGROUND: "Wikipedia is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, carry on ideological battles, or nurture prejudice, hatred, or fear." Bishonen | talk 23:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC).

• @Bishonen: Actually I did see their talk page, but decided against bringing that up as well in addition to what was already going on here. I was straying into TLDR territory as it was. Blackmane (talk) 00:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

@Bishonen and Blackmane: Thank you for your input. I may still be a bit peeved for being called a crying-Jew by a repeated offender without anyone showing minimal care but, other than that, I hold no grudge and plan to refrain from battleground mentality and apply as much of the advice given as possible. Editors working on ARBPIA place all kinds of links and poetry on their userpage. Some even make the Jews are the new Nazis allusion[284] but non of these were brought to task. I apologize if my own links strike as offensive, the only intention is a memorabilia of unique moments. Non of the battleground issues mentioned. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 02:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• I've been noted of a policy where I should remove some of links. It is 5am but I will comply asap. Let the others have their allusions, I will not hold a grudge. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 02:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

To clarify, I have no issues with anything the user places on his page. In fact, I support the use of user pages for this purpose. But can we please close this useless drama? Kingsindian ♝♚ 09:54, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Note: MarciulionisHOF's claim above that he'd been "called a crying-Jew by a repeated offender without anyone showing minimal care" may have made others jump besides me, but it obviously didn't happen. I asked for a diff on Marciulionis' page and only got a time-wasting runaround. Bishonen | talk 14:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC).
  • That is an unfair assessment. I said I was caricaturized and the relevant quote is "you're clearly endeavouring to personalize as antisemitic".[285] The rest was to substantiate that he is indeed a repeated offender on the various WP:ARBPIA decisions, pushing numerous editors other than myself despite being released on good faith from an indefinite editing restriction. If you want to call that a "run around", so be it but it is, nonetheless, unfair. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 17:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC) fix MarciulionisHOF (talk) 17:38, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Legal threat

...in the edit summary here. I have no idea why this editor suddenly has it in for me (see also personal attack here), as my only interaction with them was warning them for a personal attack in an AfD three years ago. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:27, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Note that I have taken that comment as a request (however incomprehensible in reason) not to post on their talk page, so I have not notified them, and request that someone else do so, thanks. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Done. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks...and their response was to repost their personal attack on my talk page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:06, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Of the half a dozen or so valid reasons to indef-block this person, Acroterion chose "legal threat". Drmies (talk) 00:43, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I was about to apply NOTHERE, but on spotting the (completely specious) legal threat, I used that as a conclusive block rationale. I will add that there is a set of sockpuppets or meatpuppets around deleted userpage User:FGwolfman, which brought about the attack on Freerangefrog by Raymond88824, and which amounted to an extended attack page, discussing a gaming clan. Jerry123Freekiller, JesusFreedomGamers, FGLongy and FGwolfman and Raymond88824 are apparently members and all bear watching. Acroterion (talk) 01:06, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I just soft blocked JesusFreedomGamers for the username only. Not that they give the impression that are here for anything useful, but one never knows. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 01:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

So the order of events here was:

1. legal threat made
2. editor told to retract threat or be blocked
3. editor retracts threat
4. is blocked anyway
5. requests an unblock, and it declined because apparently retracting a legal threat isn't enough

I don't think this was optimal. Protonk (talk) 12:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

No, the legal threat was not retracted explicitly (or even implicitly, it was just taken off the userpage, leaving the edit summary) when I blocked. That is apart from the WP:NOTHERE aspects of their behavior, as well as the attacks on other editors for deleting the utterly inappropriate userpage that they were using as a social media base. Acroterion (talk) 13:06, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

non admins can't change edit summaries, so of course it was still in the summary. Protonk (talk) 13:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

So that makes it all OK? Legal threats have to be clearly and specifically retracted, serious or not. Disruptive editing, harassment, creating attack pages (in jest or not), not-here-to-build-an-encyclopedia, abuse of userspace as a social media platform ... there are Drmies's six individual reasons for a block. Acroterion (talk) 13:18, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

No, but if we're going to block someone for being a general nuisance (which is what we're basically doing here) then we should just do that. Or we should gain consensus to change the legal threat policy to state that retractions need to be some positive statement, since that appears to be the feeling here. Protonk (talk) 13:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Agree with Acroterion, Raymond88824 is clearly trolling and looking for attention (thus WP:NOTHERE applies). It's time to WP:RBI. Furthermore I see no retraction of legal threats (deletion is *not* enough because it's not the same as retraction, a legal threat remains in force until it is *clearly* disavowed). If a user wants to make these kind of threats they *need* to understand how serious such remarks are and how seriously they are taken. Enabling this kind of trolling is a bad idea--Cailil ^talk 13:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC
  • I think a sense of proportionality is called for here. The impact of the threat (the reason why we block for them) is that they chill discussion and cow users. An obviously baseless threat should be treated seriously but doing so doesn't mean that we're forced to treat it as "still in force" unless the user signs an affidavit saying they're not going to sue anyone. Protonk (talk) 13:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Given that this user's second unblock request was predicated on the threat of becoming a "nightmare" and vandalizing wp for years unless unblocked[286], I have to say the actions are perfectly proportional. This user is trolling - it's time to deny recognition, WP:RBI and move on. They are clearly not here to build an encyclopedia--Cailil ^talk 00:34, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• • • Well, then change the block--then you own it, and you can fill out any reason you like from the smorgasbord that Acroterion presented. Is this really worth the fuss? Drmies (talk) 14:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
      • That indeed looks like a legal threat, but I still agree with Protonk. Kirothereaper (talk) 19:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
        • If he doesn't say "I retract the legal threat", he hasn't retracted the legal threat. Not to mention WP:NPA, WP:NOTHERE and m:TROLL. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:25, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Article whitewashed; when reverted, the whitewashing happens again as a supposedly official "OTRS action" that must not be reverted "without permission"

Mdann52 (talk · contribs) made some very controversial changes to the Generation Rescue article, one of the organizations promoting the pseudoscientific idea that vaccines cause autism, removing most of the content critical to them:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Generation_Rescue&diff=prev&oldid=626204970

This, naturally, was reverted. At which point he made the changes again, this time as an official OTRS action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Generation_Rescue&diff=prev&oldid=626610904 (OTRS action Ticket:Ticket:2014091810016149. Please do not revert without contacting me. I have also removed some seemingly unrelated EL; these are not covered by the action.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Generation_Rescue&diff=626635473&oldid=626622916 Edit summary: "DO NOT revert OTRS actions without permission. Please see my reply on my talk"

Further, he's also done the same thing at Daniel Amen, stripping criticism ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Amen&diff=624284523&oldid=624284415 ), and, when reverted, claiming it's an OTRS action. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Amen&diff=624285062&oldid=624284846 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Amen&diff=624304483&oldid=624287626 )

This can't be the intended use of OTRS actions, surely? The actions are non-neutral, and serve as a workaround to Wikipedia policy, specifically, WP:FRINGE. The sources being removed are pretty obviously reliable ones; this appears to be a case where the OTRS actions are a way to avoid justifying why sources or text is wrong. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 16:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried asking this user what the special considerations are? It appears your first attempt to communicate was to post the ANI notice. Perhaps try to work this out directly before seeking public scrutiny? Chillum 16:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

People have on the talk page. Not very forthcoming about it though; see Talk:Generation_Rescue#Recent_large_deletions_based_on_concerns_at_OTRS. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 16:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. It appears there is private information involved. It is also mentioned that the foundation is involved. I think perhaps a bit of time may be needed. I am eager to hear the point of view of the OTRS worker. I have worked OTRS in the past and I can say that there are some tricky sensitive situations sometimes. Chillum 16:35, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 3) I usually make such actions when complaints are raised, then work with the people in question to help resolve the issue; In fact, Daniel Amen is a perfect example of this (the OP fails to mention I self-reverted after I got a better picture about what the issues seemed to be [287]. The example linked above is yet another example of this; The person in question is going to participate on the article page as and when; I'm waiting for them to respond to my latest enquiry, but they are more than willing to work with us on this. There are other factors here, which I can't go into detail about on-wiki due to Non-public data rules, however as soon as I can, I will self-revert and do what I can. As it is, in the meantime, people can suggest and make edits still, and I will do what I can. Frankly, raising this here without discussing it with me first is not really very good; As the page I link to whenever I make an edit related to a ticket details, I prefer email, as it allows me to discuss wider than I can on-wiki; I have recieved 0 emails about this since I made the edits. --Mdann52talk to me! 16:37, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 4)There's a specific way of challenging an OTRS team edit. See WP:OTRS#Dispute resolution. That should be followed. Having said that I've always been puzzled by the authoritarian statements such as "DO NOT revert OTRS actions without permission." which I've seen this OTRS team member use before. I can't see that it is either in the spirit or the letter of what WP:OTRS says. DeCausa (talk) 16:41, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@DeCausa: there is a lot of context behind this; I'm just trying to advise people of this. Admitidly, I could of put this better, and I will try and do so in the future. None of us are perfect; However, I prefer a quiet word to being pulled up in front of everyone when I have already explained why I am being a tad ambiguous here. --Mdann52talk to me! 16:51, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@Mdann52: I think it would be better (i.e. more likely to elicit co-operation and help you in what you're trying to do) if you were to link specifically to WP:OTRS#Dispute resolution rather than simply declare that your permission is needed (or link to the user page you created). DeCausa (talk) 16:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

While it should have been handled directly first, I do not have much issue with raising this publicly. As some wise man said "With great power, comes great responsibility". Hopefully, OTRS changes would be made piecemeal, not wholesale. I am not convinced by the discussion on the talk page. It seems to me those concerns about NPOV could have been dealt with in an editorial fashion, instead of using OTRS. But then, I am not privy to private information. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:03, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The information removed is sourced to reliable sources, and the "OTRS edit" was basically the removal of most of the mainstream view from the article. While OTRS may be meant to deal with sensitive issues, it's not a backdoor to let organizations stealthily remove mainstream criticism, even if the people object. If the sources are unreliable, or misrepresented, simply stating that is sufficient reason to remove them and the information connected to them - without ever bringing up OTRS, thus making it clear that sensitive information exists in the first place. At the very least, this was massively botched handling of the issue. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 18:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Some of what was removed I don't have a problem with. I don't think that [288] counts as a reliable source, nor that it meets WP:EL criteria. The edit by Mdann52 was massive, significantly gutting the article in one fell swoop. Nearly all criticism of the article subject was removed, with only the mention that some of the medical community dispute their point of view. The source for that claim, by the way, doesn't even come close to using such watered down language but points out flatly that GR's views aren't supported. Most distressing though was the hammer that MDann52 was using in comments and discussion that OTRS cannot be undone. They mentioned private discussions and a forthcoming draft (oh hey - let's allow a fringe group to write their article! Won't that be just great!). What should have happened was a combination of piecemeal edits, where each one was explained. This wasn't a privacy or legal concern, it was a fringe group trying to white-wash their article and they found a way to do it. Strongly sourced information was removed and just about anything negative to GR was wiped out. This IS a fringe group. Explaining their views and noting that they are held as fringe by the scientific community is part of NPOV. This could have been handled better by Mdann52. About the only thing that wasn't done was a knee-jerk protection as an OTRS action. Ravensfire (talk) 18:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"I self-reverted after I got a better picture about what the issues seemed to be." Why are you taking actions when you don't know what the situation is? It sounds a lot like you jump into a situation and perform exactly the edits you are instructed to without any due consideration on your part. This is twice in the last month the editor has been using their OTRS position to whitewash articles, Second Quantization (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Major changes to an article without reading the sources first. Removal of sourced content without actually consulting the sources. Failure to understand and apply NPOV. Failure to supply policy based rationale with sources for back up. POV editing as a proxy for COI parties. Claiming OTRS authority to make changes and attempting to suppress reversion improperly claiming OTRS authority. Failure to provide policy based explanations for challenged edits. Failure to provide such explanations when explicitly asked repeatedly. Directly editing as a COI proxy without following COI guidelines. This is clear violation of numerous policies and guidelines. This behavior demands address by an administrator of English Wikipedia and an OTRS administrator. Perhaps a ping to the OTRS admins is needed. - - MrBill3 (talk) 11:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I've commented several times on this and related discussions - we (the OTRS admins) have been aware of the situation. Rjd0060 (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal 1

Mdann52 (talk · contribs)'s revert ban under OTRS 'authority' is rescinded and expunged and normal editing practices may continue on Generation Rescue. OTRS may not be used for enforcing edits that violate NPOV, such as white washing, and editors are extremely cautioned about using OTRS as a means to condone and enforce such behavior. OTRS should be used with care.--v/r - TP 20:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, the edit has been reverted, and I have no plans to re-revert. I have already directed the person in question to the talk page; Hopefully, they will pop up over there in a few days time. --Mdann52talk to me! 20:25, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Not good enough. Besides the ridiculous edit summaries, your commentary on the Talk:Generation Rescue page is truly appalling. Forbidding people from including material in an article simply because of a conversation you are having with an organization is a kind of behavior I have never before encountered. Being an OTRS volunteer does not give you special privileges over other volunteers to claim that people shouldn't revert you. This is outrageous! jps (talk) 02:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Agree, since this isn't actually a sanction, but a sign that the editor should follow normal procedures this presents no actual impediment for Mdann to perform normal OTRS duties, it serves as a warning from the community, Second Quantization (talk) 08:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal 2

The only way to avoid this problem in the future is to demand that the rules forbid OTRS volunteers from themselves making the edits, unless they are clearly and unequivocally BLP issues. Their job is to relay concerns and let other editors deal with it in the normal manner, and they should act like any other COI editor....just use the talk page to give guidance. They should never use OTRS as a means to intimidate editors and stifle normal editing, as was done here. They are not above our policies and guidelines. Using vague OTRS and WMF concerns as an excuse to make disputed edits is wrong on so many levels. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd suggest we allow some ability to act on non-controversial actions. There are, after all, a lot of articles with minimal traffic to their talk pages, and doing a non-controversial, neutral edit like correcting someone's birth date shouldn't have to languish for months. But it's absolutely clear OTRS was abused in this case, and anything remotely like this can't be allowed to happen again. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 06:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I think OTRS agents should justify their edits by wikipedia policy and not use the existing of a ticket to override that; i.e note the existence of a ticket, but provide reasoning in line with standard policy. I don't think OTRS agents should be forbidden from making edits as that seems to add to the workload of trying to get edits that are actually requierd. WMF concerns are achieved through office actions, and would not be affected one way or the other, Second Quantization (talk) 08:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I support this proposal. Edits other than clear BLP issues should be proposed on talk following COI guidelines. Once an OTRS agent is in correspondence with a COI party and has input on the article they are acting as a proxy for the COI party. Becoming involved in editing an article while acting as an OTRS agent is not appropriate. Raising issues and making proposals on talk is the way this should be handled. For low traffic articles an RFC or request to an uninvolved editor can be used. There should be no backdoor for COI editing without scrutiny, transparency and adherence to policy. - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:52, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose too over-reaching and restrictive. Minor edits and the like shouldn't be considered non-controversial. Hard cases make bad policy, and we shouldn't change the entire system for one (admittedly very) bad screw-up. --Jayron32 11:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jayron. Protonk (talk) 13:41, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as written. Something along the lines of only labeling clear BLP or privacy issues as OTRS edits I could go for. OTRS shouldn't be restricted from making edits, but their current process for handling disputed edits that are pure content decisions is crap. Ravensfire (talk) 14:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Jayron. OTRS is badly backlogged, additional bureaucracy should not be added without a solid reason. It happens that I have made several edits this morning based upon OTRS requests. My usual practice is to include the OTRS ticket number, as well as an explanation, so that non-agents can see why it was done, and agents can see more detail, if needed. I do see I failed to do that in one case, but it was fixing a dead link, so quite innocuous. There may be times that privacy consideration prevent a full disclosure of the reasons. If so, my edit summary will urge contact with an agent before reverting. I think the request is valid, although I'll use softer language than used in this case. @MrBill3: Today, someone pointed out an article title was misspelled. I moved it. Another pointed out a company name had changed, I checked the official company site and moved it. Another pointed out a deadlink, I fixed the link. I think it would be a massive over-reaction to suggest that these are COI by proxy edits.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:21, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: Do you think it would increase the backlog and create an excessive delay to have proposed those changes on talk? Why would the normal COI guidelines not apply to actions performed by OTRS team members on behalf of COI correspondents? Shouldn't the existing policy be followed whether an edit is suggested via OTRS or any other means? Some of these edits seem to fall under those that would be acceptable for a COI editor to make directly (minor, unlikely to controversial, clearly factual). I wonder what sources were added to the articles to support those edits. I would suggest an edit performed on behalf of a party with a COI who wrote to OTRS is a COI edit by proxy. This seems to be the definiton of proxy. Some direct editing is supported by the COI guideline but very limited. Should any party be able to write to OTRS to have an edit performed without following the COI guidelines? - - MrBill3 (talk) 01:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Last week, over 800 tickets were handled for the English Wikipedia (this does not count permissions or photosubmissions). Not all resulted in an edit but many did. Asking that the agent write out a request for posting on a talk page, which in many cases gets little traffic would probably double or triple the time needed to handle a ticket. The backlog is already at a level which is concerning. Agents are not permitted to make edits at the direction of others, any edits made must be taken on as the responsibility of the agent. I respectfully decline to make some of the edits requested, and do urge a posting to the talk page, which I often do myself, if I am not comfortable with the edit. If someone if not following the proper procedure, the right thing to do is address that person, not create a bureaucratic hurdle for the rest. If you identify a systematic problem, that's a different story, but there is no hint of that.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose No need to bring out the pitchforks. It is no great tragedy even if there is a bit of a delay due to communication issues and the article is in a "whitish" state for a few hours or days. Eventually it is bound to get clarified: there are no deadlines on WP. I do not know about OTRS in general, so I can't comment more broadly. Kingsindian ♝♚ 18:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose For reasons given above and also because, as I mention in a sub-section below, Mdann actually removed a whole bunch of BLP violations from that page. Editors protesting here should disperse their lynch mob and go fix up that article with reliable sources actually discussing the subject of the article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Despite the American Republican party, Corporations are not people. The worst you can say happened is that 100% reliably sourced information about the head of the organization was, in some cases, used to talk about the organization as a whole, and this only applies to a small part of the information removed. Please stick to facts. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 16:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposal 3

The OTRS coordinators are asked to review Mdann52's actions in this incident. Having reviewed all correspondence and other such material, they shall decide whether Mdann is capable of remaining an OTRS volunteer, and whether any other actions are necessary. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 12:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The OTRS admins are aware of the discussions and are following them, but strongly believe this is an isolated incident. We'll remind agents about the existing policy and make clarifications as necessary. Rjd0060 (talk) 19:21, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

However, there was another example of this happening in the past: Look here. So, it's not exactly "isolated", though I will agree that two examples do not make a rule. jps (talk) 21:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

@Rjd0060: So, does that mean that OTRS are or are not able to police their own volunteers if problems arise. Because, if OTRS is functionally capable of dealing with Mdann's abuse of their authority, I'd rather leave it to you to reeducate them, and make sure no incidents happen again. If OTRS is not capable of this, that's a fundamental problem with OTRS, even beyond Mdann's actions. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

We've (the OTRS admins) handled this internally and have already spoken with Mdann. We have confidence that this issue was isolated and do not have any reason to believe that any further issues will arise. I've also suggested a modification of the OTRS page here to reflect the actual practice and hopefully clarify things for all users involved. The OTRS admins have no control or authority with regards to what happened on this wiki. If the community decides they would like to take local action against the user they are of course free to do that as well. Rjd0060 (talk) 00:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Also note I have just made the change to the OTRS page to further clarify the process. Rjd0060 (talk) 16:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

A specific example

This was brought up on the talk page, and I think it shows a major problem. In the edit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Generation_Rescue&diff=626610904&oldid=626532808 - and this is a little hard to see because of a deletion before the change, the sentence "Because of Generation Rescue's public profile through national advertising and because its point of view is not shared by the mainstream medical community, its message has been controversial, etc." was changed to "However, as its point of view has been disputed by some of the medical community, its message has been controversial, etc."

When challenged on this, Mdann52 changed it to "most of". However, remember, this was a supposedly "OTRS action" which must not be reverted - and yet which didn't just delete content, but which changed it to insert misrepresentation of the mainstream view. There's three sources for that sentence (Admittedly, one of them rather mispositioned, as it doesn't actually mention Generation Rescue, it's just meant to a secondary reference to show the mainstream consensus, to confirm the sources that do, but is placed on its own) and none of them backs the new phrasing. One could challenge the sentence by asking for better sources for the general statement being made, when the sources are a little more specific, but what one can't do is ignore the sources entirely and make things up.

If there are problems with the article, OTRS volunteers are quite right to step in to fix them. But I don't see how this kind of edit could be justified under any grounds as an official, unrevertable change, as acting to prevent one group from being misrepresented does not mean misrepresenting another group to make them look better.

OTRS edits should be well-thought through, careful, and researched. One could, in an emergency, blank content and ask for time to do research on the talk page. That isn't what was done here, however. When you're actively going against the sources, changing content to misrepresent the mainstream view, that's not a sober, careful fix of a sensitive issue, it's a WP:POVPUSH under an official banner. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 19:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Point of clarification on "OTRS edits"

Hi all. I am an OTRS administrator however I am not speaking on the behalf of anybody but myself. I wanted to clarify a misconception here that I've seen several people imply. OTRS agents have no special authority on local wikis. They of course may happen to be an admin/arbitrator/etc. on a wiki, but they do not act in official OTRS capacity on wiki.

All edits made by an OTRS agent are ultimately under the 'control' or jurisdiction of the local wiki. So in this case, the edits or actions made should be able to stand on their own merit. Edits that are made as a result of an OTRS ticket must be able to stand on their own based on local wiki policies and guidelines.

I have not completely reviewed all of the information on this issue but will continue looking into it on our end. Please see WP:OTRS#Privacy and team members on the English Wikipedia where an OTRS agents' role on the English Wikipedia is further explained. I personally feel that Wikipedia:Volunteer_Response_Team#Disagreeing with a team-related edit is not the current practice and needs to be adjusted to reflect so. It seems slightly contradictory to the previous link I posted. With that in mind, however - we do appreciate the understanding from the local communities. As you are probably aware, OTRS sometimes requires that we attempt to handle sensitive issues with regards to content that may not meet Wikipedia guidelines. We would not be as successful as agents if the community was not as cooperative as they have been over the years. Rjd0060 (talk) 17:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Given the above explanation I don't see how these two cases can be seen as anything other than an attempt to abuse a claim of authority. If, "Edits that are made as a result of an OTRS ticket must be able to stand on their own based on local wiki policies and guidelines." The removal of well sourced content is not appropriate. Policy is quite clear on content that is strongly supported by a reliable source. Any content removal needs to be supported by policy based rationale, not hand waving at invisible "OTRS" issues. If the content violates policy that can be made clear, the removed content is not suppressed so the information in the content can be discussed and specific policy related to it cited. What "secret information" is needed to present a policy based objection to existing content? The attempt to suppress editing and discussion with an inappropriate (false?) claim of administrative authority seems clearly an abuse of what authority has been granted. Additionally it seems highly inappropriate to make edits that go beyond the unexplained issue at the same time. This was done in both cases. Take note of the quantity of material removed originally from Daniel Amen (and repeatedly removed despite clear rationale for its inclusion given on talk) and then most of it was restored. Also note the lack of policy based rationale provided on talk, clearly not edits which can "stand on their own based on local wiki policies and guidelines." Then asserting (falsely?) the authority the have the edit stand "unless cleared" wtf? Surely an editor with some experience/administrative authority also has a grasp of NPOV in that it does not mean whitewashing or watering down content based on reliable sources. This removal of content diff ES "cleanup, rm stuff not relevant to him" is highly problematic. Did the editor read any of the sources? The rationale for including this content was clearly explained on talk. The editor was directly and clearly asked to explain how OTRS has authority to enforce edits and no explanation of OTRS authority or function was given. This is a big problem. Can an OTRS complaint/ticket/action force WP not to present information published in reliable sources? Should an editor acting under the auspices of the OTRS team be WP:INVOLVED in editing the article they are dealing with as an OTRS team member? - - MrBill3 (talk) 19:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

If the edits are related to privacy or legal issues, I can see the point of saying don't revert an OTRS action without discussion. If the edit is simply a content decision made based on communication with the article subject, that's something else entirely. Saying that edits need to be able to stand on their merit, then making it far more difficult to challenge those edits isn't helpful. Having a way for subjects of an article to comment and/or offer suggestions is ultimately a helpful thing. But having one person (the OTRS agent) make content decisions that aren't driven by sensitive issues and have a process in place that makes it difficult to challenge those decision is not helpful. Ravensfire (talk) 18:51, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

How can privacy or legal issues come into play if the content is information published in reliable sources? None of the sources for Daniel Amen were other than widely disseminated public publications. If the information is published the legal and privacy issues rest with the publisher not the encyclopedia. I realize there may be specific cases that have to do with what WP policy considers appropriate and there is some room for courtesy and respect, but both of the subjects are publicly prominent. In particular with Generation Rescue this is non-profit that has engaged in substantial media activity, likewise Amen engages in extensive highly public self promotion. - - MrBill3 (talk) 19:25, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

In general, I agree. Specific to these two articles, I haven't seen anything that would be considered a privacy or legal issue. My comment in this section was intended to be more a general thought. There are some things you'll find in reliable sources that BLP says avoid including (kids names, address, etc). But general facts? If a source has been found legally defamatory or retracted, but still used as a source in the article, that's something I can see OTRS involvement, but they should explain why in the edit summary, not a vague hand-waving. OTRS involvement in pure content decisions (sourcing, NPOV, UNDUE, etc) needs to be done in an open manner working with the other editors on the article. I think there can be scenarios where they may have to resort to more drastic measures (strong OWNership, obvious issues being ignored), but that's far and few between and (gasp!) we've got alternatives to help with that in the various noticeboards. Pure content matters should not be done under the OTRS action banner. Ravensfire (talk) 20:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The combination of high-handed action, authoritarian communication, and ill-informed reasoning makes it clear that the OTRS personnel are in dire need of a review followed by a thinning of the herd. - Nunh-huh 19:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• No action should be taken other than to edit the articles according to policy. Perhaps the claims of special authority were overblown, but in general it is extremely desirable that OTRS agents undertake the work of liasing with external entities. Occasionally—as with all of Wikipedia's procedures—there will be unfortunate cases where an OTRS agent is persuaded to make edits that are unwise, but there is no need for further discussion here. Johnuniq (talk) 00:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

They locked down the article and threatened people who tried to undo their actions, after editing to whitewash he article. Everyone has lapses of judgement, but a lapse of judgement as large as this situation got - where the OTRS volunteer was talking about a draft they were preparing with the fringe organization to replace the then-current article, while telling anyone who objected to their whitewashing that, as an OTRS change, noone was permitted to do anything about it - is such a severe lapse of judgement that it raises questions of whether they should be trusted with the tools. Perhaps they just got in over their head, and a simple reminder is enough, but Mdann has not offered any explanation of how they let this situation get as far as it did. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 01:05, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It's a general principle here that if you repeatedly abuse special editing privileges you have been trusted with, they're taken away. One article would be a lapse. Two articles is a repetition. . - Nunh-huh 02:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

If you read the commentary of the volunteer, it is clear that they are using the OTRS position as a claim of privilege above-and-beyond other volunteers. We should not have to e-mail an OTRS volunteer to make an edit. We should be able to discuss, on wiki, issues related to reliable sourcing, NPOV, etc. If there are sensitivities that need to be worked out with a third party, that's between the OTRS volunteer and the third party. Their edits are supposed to rise and fall on their own rationale, not on the basis of "I had a conversation and you can't revert because of that." They also claimed that the WMF was getting involved as though WP:OFFICE or something gave them mandate. This is all just really gross. jps (talk) 03:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking that this should result in some strict rules which forbid OTRS volunteers from themselves making the edits, unless they are clearly and unequivocally BLP issues.

Especially legal threats (not an issue here) received through that system should be met in the same way we normally deal with them....strong resistance. We will not be intimidated by such threats. We rely on RS for our content, and editors are protected by laws which protect users of the internet who reproduce content created by others. OTOH, the original creators of those RS may be liable if they libel someone, but those who copy or quote their work are protected by law.

The OTRS system must not be compromised by COI suspicions. The volunteers should not be allowed to get caught in such situations. They can get caught in the middle of matters which are far beyond their knowledge and area of responsibility. Their job is to relay concerns and let other editors deal with it in the normal manner, and they should act like any other COI editor....just use the talk page to give guidance. They should never use OTRS as a means to intimidate editors and stifle normal editing, as was done here. They are not above our policies and guidelines. Using vague OTRS and WMF concerns as an excuse to make disputed edits is wrong on so many levels. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:21, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, here's the thing I'm wondering, after reading all this: are "OTRS volunteers" doing something problematic and bringing suspicion upon themselves - that is, is this a systemic problem - or is this literally a case of one volunteer not understanding the guidelines he was operating under, and people reacting out of the fear that it's not that he misunderstood, it's that this is just what's done? Because if it helps, this is the first time I'm aware of this sort of action being an issue since I've been an OTRS agent, and in fact I distinctly remember absorbing "don't think that 'because OTRS' trumps the usual editing rules, because it doesn't and it would get you in big trouble" from other volunteers, the wiki pages, and the OTRS manual when I was new on OTRS. There's even an OTRS response template that goes something like "OTRS does not make edits on request, since all edits are subject to community consensus. Here's how to make/request your edits onwiki."

In short, it's never been the case that volunteers are taught that their edits are inviolable or that they should make requested article edits as a matter of course, so responding to this incident as "those OTRS volunteers! They need to stop abusing their rights!" rather than "what went wrong in training, that this one person didn't get that training?" seems out of place. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Fluffernutter is entirely correct here, so much so it bears repeating with as much emphasis as possible. Not one person has presented evidence that there is a problem with the OTRS system which needs fixing. Not one. What there is is one editor, in one instance, has demonstrated a pretty grievous lack of judgement. The question we need to ask is "Had the system been different (that is, had the changes people are clamoring for been in place), would it have prevented this?" The answer, of course, is "No." Because no system, set of rules, and training can prevent people from making free choices in their own actions. Poor choices cannot be stopped, and no one has presented any evidence that the system as a whole suffers from people being poorly educated on their role in OTRS. Instead, we have a case of someone making a poor decision, a singular poor decision, that nothing could have prevented. So there's no point in wringing our hands and saying "Oh no, what is wrong with OTRS!!!" There's nothing wrong with OTRS. Something is wrong with what this one person did this one time. Fix this one problem, and move on. --Jayron32 14:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree. This seems to be a single OTRS volunteer who has (apparently with two different fringe articles) gone too far. It needs to be made more clear that OTRS volunteers' edits are not above policy. (A BLP related deletion by ANYONE is not to be reverted, so using OTRS concerns should not be mentioned in a manner which intimidates other editors.) OTRS volunteers could still make uncontroversial and minor edits without any problem, but it would be wise to stay away from using OTRS concerns as an excuse to make controversial edits. Mention those concerns on the talk page and guide other editors. Just use the normal processes and work with other editors. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that it is a problem with the OTRS system if Mdann keeps his status with OTRS, without any sort of public censure and/or promises never to do it again. Mdann has not, at this time, admitted any wrongdoing. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 16:07, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is a sitting arbitrator doing exactly the same thing last year: [289]. Notice this statement [290] which is directly contradicted by sources [291] (and [292] who got court documents). So I wonder if it is how OTRS volunteers are instructed, rather than one bad apple, Second Quantization (talk) 22:45, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Given the comments above by S Philbrick I am led to wonder if OTRS agents are trained in such a way that they understand their edits must follow existing policy. In editing on behalf of an OTRS correspondent who has a conflict of interest they are performing edits that should be done following the COI guideline. Just because Joe from Acme wrote OTRS that doesn't mean that the edits Joe suggests should not be executed in adherence to the COI guideline, they are still edits proposed by a party with a COI. The COI guideline is quite clear that the edits that should be performed directly are very limited. What is the policy at OTRS regarding making edits for parties who write OTRS that have a COI? From what I understand OTRS agents should be following PAG. COI is clearly not being followed very closely. - - MrBill3 (talk) 01:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• WP:COI and WP:MEAT apply to any editor, including OTRS volunteers, who attempt to make edits on behalf of another person. AGF applies to other editors, not to outside sources. Outside sources are still bound by our rules (but they don't follow them), which is to provide a RS for their information. Then OTRS volunteers should present the concern and the RS on the article's talk page and let other editors deal with it. We should be distrustful of outside sources and do as we always do here, which is to let the Reliable and Verifiable sources determine the matter. OR from an outside source is not a RS which is verifiable by ALL Wikipedia editors, ergo we cannot use it to guide our editing. Outside sources have agendas, and we must recognize that. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:24, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Further, Mdann has not yet admitted any wrongdoing. It's all very well to call this an "isolated incident", but if there's no admission of wrongdoing, and no indication that Mdann will use OTRS requests more carefully, and research matters before acting in future, this problem can hardly be considered dealt with. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 16:07, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I fear you are right, because they still don't show evidence they understand the problem. COI editors and outside sources should always be treated with extra care and some degree of skepticism. The reason we don't hold them to the same standards as others is that they have a COI and bias which will naturally tend to skew article content away from NPOV. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

To be completely fair, I must point out that Mdann52 finally did begin to admit being "over-hasty", but only after multiple editors had gotten on their case. Something needs to be done with the basic instructions to OTRS volunteers and the public guidelines for the OTRS system which will prevent this type of thing from happening again. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:31, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That does seem to indicate a problem, yeah. If Mdann wants to continue as an OTRS agent, he needs to understand and abide by the limitations of the role. If we can't be sure he can do that, he should not have OTRS access, in my non-OTRS-admin opinion. At the same time, however, I don't think "public censure" or forcing him to admit "wrongdoing" is what we should be aiming for here. If the goal is for him to conform to the limitations of the OTRS role, then the way to fix it is either for his permissions to be revoked, or for him to commit (publicly or to the OTRS admins; frankly it's more the admins' purview than it is ANI's) to abiding by the limitations of the role going forward - not for us to make a show of embarrassing him via a toothless "censure" pour encourager les autres. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, yes, but, if they are to retain OTRS volunteer status, then something making it clear that they understand where they went wrong and will return to using the tools necessary has to happen. This could be Mdann showing they understand what they did wrong; it could be the OTRS coordinators making it clear they'll be watching Mdann's behaviour through censure, it could be anything else in that line. But, at the moment, Mdann is showing no indication they understand the scope of their problem.

I don't think that kicking him out of OTRS is the best solution, if it can be avoided. We want our actions to be preventative, not punitive. But, if we don't have clear indicators Mdann definitely won't do this again, I think we would be foolish to drop this discussion without taking the alternative, less-preferable actions. #Proposal 3, above, was meant to be a face-saving way for OTRS to deal with this privately with Mdann; the response there does not inspire any faith in OTRS's ability to police its own. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Per the new response at #Proposal 3, this seems to have been dealt with. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 16:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

General problems with the article

I perused the citations in the current article and from what I can tell very few of the sources cited at present actually make any mention of Generation Rescue. Particularly, this article in the LA Times makes no mention of the group whatsoever, but is used to make very negative implications about the group. Having seen the state prior to the first revert, it was clearly bad, including a bunch of BLP violations and widespread use of self-published blogs. People can call it white-washing, but the vast majority of the material was original research or poorly sourced and much of it still is that way. The article is better as a result of Mdann's actions and, instead of trying to lynch Mdann here, editors should instead focus on finding reliable sources for the article that are actually about the group rather than repeatedly restoring dreck just because it happens to suit their POV.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

"Jenny McCarthy, a former Playboy model and actress who has written about raising an autistic son, has appeared twice on "Larry King Live" since September, arguing that vaccines trigger autism."[293] QuackGuru (talk) 04:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm . . . *checks title of article and checks quote* . . . I believe you have the wrong article. We are talking about the article on Generation Rescue, the article you are looking for is thataway.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Today, Generation Rescue is known as a platform for Jenny McCarthy's autism and anti-vaccine advocacy.[5] Generation Rescue is run by Jenny McCarthy. QuackGuru (talk) 05:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Generation Rescue and Jenny McCarthy are often properly identified with each other. It's her vehicle. Otherwise this subsection is getting us off track here. Content discussion should happen at the article's talk page. Here we are talking about abuse of OTRS in a COI manner, IOW meatpuppetry for a fringe organization. OTRS volunteers are not supposed to do that. They are not above our policies and guidelines. There were no BLP issues, and nothing that couldn't be handled in the ordinary manner, so there was no justification for shortcircuiting and bypassing normal editing. There was certainly no justification for edit warring. Those are the issues to be discussed here, not any content issues. Those are now being worked out at the article. Stay on topic. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Just because McCarthy runs it does not mean every article about McCarthy should be considered an article about Generation Rescue. Such an approach would turn it into a BLP coatrack, which is what it was before Mdann got involved. The person and the group are separate and, for your information, a lot of stuff cited on that page does not even mention McCarthy. As far as this not being about content, it is about content since you are going after the person who removed the content. If the content being removed violates our policies then your argument for malfeasance kind of falls flat.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 06:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Mdann never made such an argument, and he didn't just remove things that referenced McCarthy - they removed everything that was at all critical, regardless of quality of source. Had they removed poorly cited content - and said that was why they were removing it - that would be quite a different thing to actively rewriting content to misrepresent the mainstream view, or saying that they were working on a draft of the article with the organization in question.

The thing is, were that the reason, and had Mdann mentioned that, people would be able to act to fix the article with better sources. But if the OTRS volunteer simply removes all critical content, doesn't give reasons, and states that no content may be restored because it's an OTRS action, then that justification is insufficient, because it offers no road forwards for people to maintain important policies such as WP:FRINGE and WP:NPOV. Even if we accept that was entirely Mdann's rationale, by not explaining themselves, they turned a fixable article that needed resourced and rewritten to an unfixable by OTRS fiat POV mess. The problem is the heavy-handedness; any legitimacy one can find for the changes after the fact is irrelevant, because Mdann never offered any argument in its defense other than "secret OTRS communications of a sensitive nature that I can't tell you" - which offers no way to move forwards on fixing the article.

And that's presuming the best possible view of his actions - which is unjustified. Because Mdann's removals was not, so far as I'm aware, solely limited to things that failed to specifically mention Generation Rescue, it was indiscriminate. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 07:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The place for discussions of content and sources for the article Generation Rescue is thataway. The subject of this filing is involved editing with claims of no reversion allowed by an OTRS agent acting as a proxy COI editor. - - MrBill3 (talk) 10:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Those claims hinge on the edits being bad for removing policy-compliant material. Evidence to the contrary is certainly appropriate here.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

In response to TDA's obnoxious behavior, I have started this discussion. jps (talk) 21:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

No the claim of making edits at the behest of a party with a conflict of interest and asserting that no revision is permissible based on the edit being performed by an OTRS agent has nothing to do with the validity of those edits, the content or sources of the article(s) edited. Once again that discussion is thataway. - - MrBill3 (talk) 09:24, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I am with MrBill3 on this one. Even if the edits were of the highest quality and even if the removed material consisted of 100% unambiguous BLP violations, making edits for someone with a COI and forbidding revision on OTRS grounds would still be unacceptable. We remove BLP violations all of the time, with no need to make our doing so unrevertable. If reverts that restore BLP violations are a problem, a quick note to ANI gets nearly instant results, including blocks, page protection, and revdels, as appropriate. This is an improper solution to a problem that we are well equipped to handle without any unrevertable OTRS editing. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The person who filed this case talked about the article being whitewashed and that is a major focus of the criticism Mdann has received. If the material is in fact not acceptable per our policies then talk of a whitewash is mistaken. Adding material backed by reliable sources that are actually talking about the subject would resolve the problem. Were the complaint merely about the theoretical implications of OTRS editing then ANI is not the place to handle it. Should a COI editor directly make edits, but those edits just remove material that violates our policies then we generally don't rake them over the coals for it. Why should an editor acting per a request from a conflicted party be any different?--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:49, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

TDA you seem to be ignoring the fact the same activity occured at Daniel Amen, where content was removed with an ES saying not relevant when the sources specifically named the subject of the article, some repeatedly, some as primary focus. And when reverted there redid edit with summary "As this is an OTRS action, please don't retore it without being cleared to do so". Refused to provide policy based explanations on talk when asked directly twice. So again the primary issue is COI proxy editing, asserting authority to suppress reversion and failure to provide policy based rationale to support edits on talk which has occured twice. Secondarily the content removed from Daniel Amen was improperly removed as it was relevant to the subject. - - MrBill3 (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I hadn't seen that since the focus of the filing party was clearly on the Generation Rescue article, but the edits there also seem appropriate, even if the initial reasoning was not entirely valid (I believe the reasoning was that it applies more to the guy's clinics or the procedure than the guy). It does look like the 2005 APA statement only alludes to Amen by using him as a reference about the practice, while the 2012 statement appears to make no mention or allusion to him at all (both are included in the same PDF file so this may be the reason both are seen as relevant). Seems the other material Mdann tried to remove from the article was gratuitously redundant and was inserted solely to have more negative commentary. There was more than enough criticism of the guy already. Clearly Mdann wasn't whitewashing anything on that article.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I smell IDHT. "I hadn't seen that" did you read the filing and check the diffs? The edits at Daniel Amen are clearly a part of the original filing, are you jumping in without actually reading the filing and checking the diffs? Second material removed (diff) was sourced to 1) an article about Amen in The Washington Post Magazine 2) Farah & Gillihan (2012) which discusses Amen and his practice, studies extensively 3) Hall 2005 and 2008 again about the subject 4) The 2005 APA consensus statement as you mentioned explicitly mentions the subject 5) The 2012 APA statement is a follow up to the 2005 statement and addresses the same subject matter. The principle activity of the subject and reason for his notability is the activities of his medical practice and his clinics (of which he is CEO and Medical Director). The main technique discussed in reliable sources (and by Amen himself) used by these clinics is SPECT, the subject has made multiple assertions about his use of SPECT. The presentation of the mainstream medical scientific consensus relating to biomedical information must be predominant and clear in any article, see WP:MEDRS. If Amen asserts SPECT is useful for diagnosis and treatment of psychiatric conditions (which he does and charges a great deal of money for in his practice) then the article must present the current medical knowledge on SPECT for diagnosis and treatment... as clearly and explicitly and in due proportion. Per NPOV the content should represent what is published in reliable sources per due. There had already been extensive discussion on talk about these sources and about the appropriateness of clearly and explicitly presenting the current medical knowledge regarding the technique promoted by Amen and practiced by him and his clinics. The appropriate amount of "criticism of the guy" is proportional per due in RS not in a WP editor's opinion.

You are also conveniently ignoring the ES "As this is an OTRS action, please don't retore it without being cleared to do so." It is this type of claim of authority that is at the root of this filing. It is also the failure to present the type of arguments and rationale you are providing here (again the WRONG VENUE) and get consensus support for challenged edits (please take this to the TALK PAGES of the SPECIFIC ARTICLES and work on getting consensus for your opinion there). Here the issues are 1) POV/COI editing with 2) claims of unchallengable editing 3) lack of discussion and consensus 4) general failure to follow PAG based on status as an OTRS agent. - - MrBill3 (talk) 08:00, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You cannot say the issue is POV editing and then credibly suggest the article's content is not a valid issue here. Did the material Mdann removed comply with our policies? If the answer is yes then it is POV editing. If the answer is no, then it is not POV editing. Here I am saying the answer is no the material Mdann removed did not comply with our policies. For the record, the Amen article still had plenty of criticism of him and his methods and noted the position of mainstream science. The article complied with WP:FRINGE in both versions.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

If you would like to raise the questions you have about the edits on the talk page of the article (after reading the talk archives) I think you will find there is strong consensus against the position you are taking and that is based on substantial discussion, policy based rationale and sources. Your contention that the material removed "did not comply with our policies" is not supported by the consensus interpretation of policy ON THE TALK PAGE of the article (and the archives). The removal of sourced material with consensus support does not comply with our policies. The repeat of such removal without providing policy based rationale on talk and gaining consensus is a clear violation of policy. The assertion of authority to ban reverts of one's edits based on being an OTRS team member is highly problematic and seems a clear violation of English WP policy and OTRS policy. So far an aknowledgement of this from Mdann or OTRS admin is lacking. Editing based on the requests of a party with a conflict of interest (the definition of proxy) without following the COI guidelines does not comply with our policies. Per COI "If another editor objects for any reason, then it's a controversial edit. Such edits should be discussed on the article's talk page." (emphasis in original). Thus clearly an edit made on the behalf of a party with COI that has been reverted should be discussed on talk. NOT repeated with a bogus revert ban. As the edit was removal of content that had been extensively discussed and was supported by consensus the edits and assertions of needing to be "cleared" to restore the content were gross violations of policy. - - MrBill3 (talk) 02:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Please respond to what MrBill3 actually wrote. He wrote "making edits at the behest of a party with a conflict of interest". That is not the same thing as "POV editing". The issue -- the specific issue that I am concerned about -- is the combination of making edits at the behest of a party with a conflict of interest and claiming that the edits cannot be reverted because of OTRS. You keep claiming that the specific issue that I am concerned about is something else. That's wrong. You could argue that it 'should be' something else, but the fact remains that I am well aware of what concerns me, I have clearly explained what concerns me twice now, and what concerns me has nothing to do with the quality of the edit. Please stop trying to make this about POV editing. The edits were wrong even if NPOV. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:58, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Long story short is, the article after the changes was a major violation of our NPOV policy. Before, it at worse needed some - not all - of the sources improved. Sources needing improved is a case for tagging, not for massive deletion of content, creating a POV mess and lockdown. Mdann unambiguously violated WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE in their edits. Further, Mdann did not raise any policy when asked to defend their edits, just cited secret OTRS communication. Had they given reasons for their edits, and cited policy, we wouldn't be having this argument, we'd be fixing the article to respond to Mdann's concerns. It does not add a single jot to Mdann's case to come up with possible justifications for a part of their edits, particularly as, even if we accept the edits were justified - and I'm not saying they are, but even if we did, BLP does not apply to corporations, so Mdann had no right to lock the article down. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 21:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The article before the changes was a major violation of our NPOV policy. At least after the changes it generally comported with our V and BLP policies. With all the time you guys have spent trying to lynch someone over the matter, you could have easily found some actual reliable sources that actually discuss the subject.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You clearly do not understand WP:NPOV - NPOV is not presenting the subject in a positive light. When the subject expresses fringe beliefs, and we report on them, we are required by WP:FRINGE - part of the NPOV policy - to put those fringe beliefs in context. It's not worth discussing this with you further if you don't understand the policies being discussed. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 16:49, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I did not say the article was NPOV-compliant after Mdann's edits, only that neither version was compliant with NPOV, but Mdann's version was compliant with V and BLP. That is on the people who were not providing policy-compliant material for criticism of Generation Rescue, not Mdann.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You are literally the only person seeing BLP issues. You do realise corporations aren't people, right? Further, Mdann added inaccuracies, such as his misrepresentation of the scientific consensus, so Verifiability is shot as well. Your argument holds no water. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 20:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You should look more carefully at the article prior to Mdann's edits because there are plenty of BLP violations and I am not talking about material concerning the group itself. As far as the scientific consensus part, I am not seeing where the statement is backed by the source at all so it was a verifiability issue before and after Mdann's changes.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Adam, I couldn't disagree with you more. I am personally no supporter of non-standard science, and certainly I regard their view of this controversy as bothvery unlikely, and dangerous; but that does not change the need for a proper article. This was a proper attempt to remove disproportionate coverage. This article is about the Association. It's enough to indicate that they support a non-stanfard view of the subject. Discussion of why their virw is not standard is extensively covered elsewhere in WP--extensively, and appropriately, on the basis of the scientific evidence, just as it ought to be.The view is not unique to them--the explanation of their view in detail or its refutation is no more needed here than an explanation of why the evidence for flying saucers is insufficient at the article on a SF fan club. Repeating it here is unnecessary, inappropriate, and confusing. If this was a group supporting the scientific consensus of the matter, it would be equally wrong to explain the consensus in detail--every bit as wrong as to explain the basis of climate change in an article either on either climate change denialists or eon environmental activists. In an article on manufacturer of widgets, when they attempt, as they often do, to explain the great social utility of widgets in general, we remove it as promotionalism.

As for the OTRS aspect, I have deliberately not see the oTRS correspondence, tho I am an OTRS agent, because it doesn't matter. The material does not belong here. I agree it is inappropriate just to give OTRS as a reason, but one of the proper uses of OTRS is people complaining about this sort of prejudicial content, to get proper attention on it, and to overcome the bias of people who because they how they are right, and in fact are right, need to spread the truth everywhere regardless of encyclopedic balance. OTRS is, among other things, our key defense against promotionalism. I use it to explain to companies, more personally than I could do here, just why their edits are improper, and to tell them how to reach a solution in keeping with WP. When necessary, after telling them what would both address the interests of truth and balance, I often make the edits directly. I have as much right as an OTRS agent to make a edit on behalf of a COI user as anyone else does. But though I will mention I', editing in response to an OTRS request, they have the right to have their privacy preserved as much as any other user does--I act as the intermediate for the purpose, just as I would act if I were verifying a copyright donation.

OTRS is one of the things that work best in WP. I delayed being active there for many years, because I could see I see I was not needed,and have only become more active to handle the incoming flood of promotionalism. It does have the same problem as the rest of WP, that there are a considerable number of people all acting independently, and , just like admins, reluctant to interfere with each other to avoid causing chaos. This does give the need for some degree of oversight. It is presentthere informally, for we can see each others' work. But it is always unwise to leave things at that without some formal review--just as we have Deletion Review for administrative speedys. We have it in a sense for OTRS edits, because they are made openly in the face of the community. But we do need a formal mechanism for ensuring accuracy and consistency of operation at OTRS--I understand that some steps are being taken in this direction. DGG ( talk ) 23:36, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

He actively changed statements of the scientific consensus to "some doctors", DGG. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 23:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The changed to "most", still not a good expression of the breadth and depth of the scientific/medical/academic/official consensus general watering down and changes that remove positions clearly held and publicized in the past. - - MrBill3 (talk) 04:20, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

He changed it to "some" as Adam said ("its point of view has been disputed by some of the medical community" [294]), a complete misrepresentation of the facts. Deleting over emphatic criticism is one thing. Misrepresenting the mainstream view is something else. Paul B (talk) 21:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll crosspost what I put on the Fringe Noticeboard, because, on reflection, I should have said it here: Perception is all, and when an editor breezes into a contentious article and makes changes with basically the rationale "secret squirrel - I know stuff you don't - don't alter my important action without 'clearing' it with me", then it gets folks backs up. From that point things are never going to go well. I'm sure, DGG, had you handled this, it would have gone very differently - even if there was not universal agreement for your actions. Regular editors need to see the rationale behind these actions, and there should have been no problem being transparent here. Nothing I can see required the "I can't tell you why I'm doing this" approach. That will result, rightly or wrongly, in a fear that COI edits are being made by proxy without proper process or consensus, via a "back-door". I'm encouraged by your comments about training. Notwithstanding any of that, I can fully understand why folks here want to see some acknowledgement of the errors in approach at least, to be reassured that these concerns are understood and addressed. Begoon ^talk 21:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is Mdann's edit summary in the editor's first edit on the Generation Rescue article: "rm some poorly cited material, some uncited material, and other non neutral stuff. See also - Ticket:2014091810016149". No talk of being a secret squirrel. That only came after people kept reverting Mdann's actions. Reasons were given and they were fairly good reasons as I have been attempting to explain.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

TDA still flogging the content aspect in the wrong venue? That only serves the same purpose as any straw man argument, which is to divert attention from the real issue here, which is a misuse of OTRS. Nothing needed to be done which could not have been done by following normal collaborative editing procedures, including any possible BLP issues. Even Mdann52 later realized that and backed off.

TDA, your harping on this issue here is quite tendentious and disruptive. You are wasting our time. Stop it. Mdann52 could have been a million percent right and the manner he did it was still wrong. It's the "wrong manner" part we're discussing here. Are you really incapable of understanding that? If so, then you shouldn't be commenting in areas where you lack competence. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:50, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It was brought to this page under the header "Article whitewashed; when reverted, the whitewashing happens again as a supposedly official 'OTRS action' that must not be reverted 'without permission'" and the comments by the filer make it clear that the edits themselves are in large part the reason for the complaint, not the OTRS action in isolation. There is no objective way to view the nature of the content as off-topic when the discussion started off as a complaint about the content changes being made. The allegation of misuse is clearly predicated on the content changes being inappropriate on their own. If your objection is strictly to the idea of someone saying an OTRS action should not be reverted without being discussed privately, or how OTRS requests are handled generally, then this is the wrong venue for your complaint. You need to take that up at another page that concerns procedural policy on this matter.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:34, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

There is no rule that says we have to pay any attention to what the person filing the report thinks the issue is. It often happens on ANI that the original complaint is dismissed out of hand and everyone focuses on another issue that came up during the discussion. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Except, the two issues are inseparable. The idea that there was malfeasance is based on the edits being inappropriate. An OTRS editor was informed of problems with an article. Said editor found problems with the article and sought to address them. Honestly, it does not seem there was sufficient consideration for the state of the article prior to Mdann's edits until I raised the issue here.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 00:44, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It appears that you are the only person here who finds the two issues to be inseparable, and I completely reject your notion that "the idea that there was malfeasance is based on the edits being inappropriate". That statement is simply not true. You have restated your opinion on this again and again and as far as I can tell have convinced nobody, It is time to drop the stick. (I would have said "concern", BTW; I am not ready to accuse anyone of malfeasance.) --Guy Macon (talk) 01:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Moving forward

I think this issue has been hashed out pretty well. I'd like to see the stick dropped in regards to Mdann. IMO a statement by OTRS administration that, except in clear cases of BLP or privacy issues, edits by OTRS editors:

1) Must follow English Wikipedia policies and guidelines, including COI, and should be argued for with policy based rationale on talk when challenged

2) Have NO exemption from reversion or discussion on talk and assertions of such are not appropriate

would be a step in the right direction. (As a point of fact BLP and privacy issues have substantial means of address within existing WP PAG.) An acknowledgement of the same by the editor involved would also be useful.

The issue that remains somewhat unclear is the application of COI when an OTRS editor is acting based on input from an unseen email. Does off wiki communication with a party that is not editing WP themselves create an instance of COI editing by proxy and require disclosure when making edits based on/inspired by that communication? I understand that an OTRS agent made aware of problems with an article can make an assessment (how independent? how thorough?) of the article and edit the article to improve it. When driven by off wiki secret correspondence this becomes fuzzy.

A clear and specific acknowledgement of the problems with the actions on the two articles in the filing might allow this discussion to move towards addressing the remaining clarification I think is needed. I am hoping both English WP admins and OTRS admins can propose a way forward that allows OTRS agents to act efficiently while ensuring adherence to English WP PAG. While the above discussion has delved far into discussing the merits of edits, some clarification of how OTRS agents should proceed and how edits should be done and argued for might be useful. I invite other editors to raise concerns I do not address.

Per WP:Volunteer Response Team, "Most requests relating to usual editorial matters are referred to normal on-wiki processes." Shouldn't normal on-wiki processes absolutely involve argument in support of challenged edits on talk? No criteria is given for what requests are handled by other than normal on-wiki processes, let's assume privacy, BLP and defamation are. What else? Why not be clear and explicit? On the same page @ Dispute resolution, "The volunteer team strongly recommends that you contact the editor responsible prior to reverting." Shouldn't this section first make clear that OTRS agent edits are subject to WP PAG and the normal dispute resolution process, particularly including discussion on the talk page of the article? Shouldn't it make clear that OTRS agent edits should stand on their merits? Regarding, "the agent may be in possession of confidential information that should not be published on a public site such as Wikipedia." while such information should be held in confidence what bearing does that have on edits made on WP? Except for an internal OTRS issue that the anonymity of the OTRS correspondent should be maintained, shouldn't COI be disclosed per policy? Shouldn't edits be worked out in accordance with PAG? Even for fairly basic editing where is the problem with requiring OTRS agents to disclose an edit has been made at the suggestion of a party with a COI?

If issues with NPOV and or DUE seem apparent to an OTRS agent shouldn't a discussion on talk be started at the time of the edit, particularly if based on input from a party with a COI? Even for basic generally non controversial edits a posting on talk doesn't seem like an onerous burden on an OTRS agent performing an edit. I think acknowledgement of and strict adherence to PAG, and transparency would go far to help the community maintain good faith and work collaboratively with OTRS agents. - - MrBill3 (talk) 16:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi MrBill3, I don't think we've met. Thanks for your contributions, and for your interest in this subject.  :-) I'm a little confused though - I thought that Rjd0060 had already (a couple of times) met the request that you make at the top for those statements. If there's something else you think needs to be done, I'm afraid I'm being a little too dense to figure out what it is. Do you think another statement is necessary? If so, where and to whom, and why aren't the ones that he's just made (in his role as an OTRS admin) enough?

I truly do want to make sure that legitimate concerns are addressed here, but I also want to be sure that we're not focusing our energy on a problem that's already on the way to solution. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 17:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Socking and edit warring

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On Death by burning, a user adds some amount of content with his 2 ips,[295], [296]. After getting reverted, he reverted two times with a account that he created 2 hours ago [297] [298]. False accusation of "vandalism", reminder about some "warning by other user" that remains non-existing and use of edit summaries("stop deleting the sourced content and removing the whole article") for edit dispute may assure that it is a obvious Duck. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Well I didn't have my own Id so I was using my Ip address. And I have created my Id very recently. The moment I made Id I was informed by Bladesmulti about Socking. Thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Harkins (talk • contribs) 18:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

And I am not accusing someone falsely. User:Arildnordby warned Bladesmulti in this edit about vandalism. [299]— Preceding unsigned comment added by John Harkins (talk • contribs) 18:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

That was 9 months ago, for which he was blocked. It is definitely not even a warning. Anyways, what it has to do with your addition of complete nonsense? Or nonsensical claims like "stop deleting the sourced content and removing the whole article" You are probably around here for longer period but trying to distract from your POV pushing. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

You have removed all the Hindu related materials from that page about Death by Burning. And my claim is not so nonsensical as you think so. Rather you removed all the Hindu related materials from that page without even discussing on the talk page first.

No you can also claim again that I "deleted the article", then or now, you make no sense. You can remove fringed translation wherever you see them. But your aim was never about discussing the edits, it is rather edit warring and not hear anything. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:53, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP 62.168.13.98: death threat to other user

IP 62.168.13.98 is long term abuser, with long history of uncivil conduct, racist and vulgar language. For example "czechofile is worse than a pedophile", "You are Czech C..t" and "yopie is czech phanatic idiot". He was blocked four times [300]. But today he crossed the line with this [301], it is in Czech and in English it means "This is your end, pig". Link is to Youtube video "Slaughter in Mexico (Warning Disturbing)" with really bloody killing of pigs. I feel it as death threat. --Yopie (talk) 18:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

E-mailed @emergency, section already removed by OP. Amortias (T)(C) 18:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP for 3 months. De728631 (talk) 20:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Would it be worth revdel the two offending posts as well, dont think theres a particually valid need to keep them about. Amortias (T)(C) 20:46, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I've taken care of that. De728631 (talk) 15:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Topic-ban request for User:Der Statistiker in Paris articles.

- Constant aggressive edit warring, constant disregard for/gaming WP rules and reverting in disregarding (even denying) talk-page discussions, ... for starters.

I could make a long list of events, but I think the present state of the Talk:Paris page is enough of a case. Der Statistiker has some very original views about what Paris "should" be (but isn't), and goes to any length to make sure that they become "reality" in the Paris article, all while remaining just inside Wikipedia rules, of course. Repealing their efforts has always been a headache, and that since almost ten years now.

(edited) This is a mess. I'm withdrawing the meat puppet and sock puppet accusations for now, because I'm now not sure who started what, but for sure at least two few-edits participants are from the www.skyscrapercity.com page where (Google translated) 'troops' were coached how to edit Wikipedia, and both Minato ku and Sesto Elemento are present here (read forward and back for more): [302], and a former 'vote' campaign originated there too [303], but it was not reported by participating contributors. (added) No, wait, yes it was! [304]. Der Statistiker is absent from all these discussions, oddly. And we still don't know who started brought them in the first place. Admitedly, it might have been Minato ku, and Der Statistiker was just jumping on their cause. Neither party spoke up to clarify (or even deny) even after being asked, anyhow. THEPROMENADER 23:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Good example of Der Statistiker's general attitude towards discussion and other contributors: [305]

Sockpuppet case against Der Statistiker: conclusion: Editing another language under another name [306]

Der Statistiker, latest bout of reverts: First revert (diff): 2014-09-23T02:33:20 [307]

contributions: [308]

Minato ku first revert: 2014-09-23T22:23:19 [309]

contributions: [310]

Sesto Elemento first revert: 2014-09-21T17:23:56 [311]

contributions: [312]

Through all of the above, Der Statistiker and at least two of the above participants appear always at the same time for the same 'cause'. I hope Der Statistiker's general bad attitude, unwillingness to discuss anything (except how others are (expletive) and wrong), the general disingenuousity (especially in false/'kettle black' accusations) is evident enough throughout all that... I think it more than is, but I'm hardly looking at this objectively.

Right, so you recognize yourself that you're not sure anymore who started what, you open a case here to ask for my banishment, but then say it's in fact Minato Ku who might be responsible (then why did you open this case about me in the first place??), then post some diffs showing some reverts from myself and two other editors which are similar, but dear Sir, I can also post some diffs from you and other editors which are similar. ThePromander's reverts ([313], [314], [315]), SchroCat's reverts ([316], [317], [318]), Jeppiz' reverts ([319], [320]), Dr Blofeld's revert ([321]), all perfectly the same, reverting to the same photomontage (notice how each guy stops before breaking the 3 revert rule and lets the other ones continue to revert in turn).

You then accuse me of always showing up at the same time as other editors. It's funny because I always see you popping up in the Paris article at the same time as User:SchroCat, User:Dr. Blofeld, and User:Jeppiz, and always, always to block any change in the montage at the top of that infox. So are you guys informing each other of the changes in that infobox to act together? Or are SchroCat, Dr. Blofeld, and Jeppiz your meatpuppets, or are you theirs?

Your accusations can be thrown back at you, and do little to improve the editing atmosphere in the article. For more than a year now I've seen the three of you (ThePromenader, Dr. Blofeld, SchroCat), with the occasional help of Jeppiz and one or two other editors, acting together to prevent any change in the article that you don't like. On that I second what Metropolitan said today: it looks like WP:OWN to me. Der Statistiker (talk) 00:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Ownership? Coming from you, and your staggering displays of ownership so far, that's incredibly rich. - SchroCat (talk) 06:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The only thing anyone can accuse me of is being very bad at arguing. But thanks for insinuating otherwise.

Whether the others show up by your bidding or on their own, you are using them to promote your own POV, which would be impossible without misguided 'like-minded' support.

Actually, it would be great if Minato ku and Sesto Elemento gave their input here. THEPROMENADER 05:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Have you got some evidence of the sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry otherwise you would be better to strike those parts of the report. Amortias (T)(C) 20:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. I already withdrew the sockpuppet part (this user may have been condemned in the past for this, but I have to check that). For meatpuppetry, what should I provide? THEPROMENADER 20:19, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

For meat puppetry you would want to provide links to other contributors providing similar or identical additions or removals of information that have limtied or few other contributions. Amortias (T)(C) 20:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Echoing Amortias above. Additionally have other dispute resolution avenues been tried (WP:DRN or WP:RFC)? EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I agree that DerStatistiker is a user whose behavior at Paris hurts Wikipedia more than it helps and I could support a topic ban. I agree with Amortias that every accusation has to be supported by evidence and diffs.Jeppiz (talk) 20:18, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Please bear with me, in all my years here, I've never done anything like this before. Isn't the talk page itself a good start? The edit history of all those involved would help, too... okay, I'll go get those. Sorry, cheers. THEPROMENADER 20:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Might be worth looking at WP:D&L for advice on producing the diffs for evidence. Amortias (T)(C) 20:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I should have been better prepared. I withdraw the meatpuppetry accusation (I have yet to sort out who did what first, I may have been wrong about that), so my bad, Sorry. THEPROMENADER 22:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I must make another correction: I did make a case against the same user, but for sockpuppetry. I added it into the links above. THEPROMENADER 22:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

All I wish to say about the matter I have already said elsewhere (repeated in the thread below, as applicable. – SchroCat (talk) 21:06, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Endorse, And strongly so. You only have to have to look at his behaviour and lack of AGF last July/August and in events since such as recently and forum shopping to make this an appropriate action.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Dr. Blofeld and User:SchroCat have contacted me off-wiki, asking me to weigh in here as a non-involved admin, so here are my remarks and a suggestion as to how to resolve this.

I realize AN/I is not normally a place to talk about article content, but in this case I can't help weighing in on that first. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a special-interest site, and in the case of an article about a millennia-old city, it is not surprising that the most iconic structures in the city would be ones that have been around for a while. The presumably most iconic skyscrapers of the region, La Défense, sit outside of the city itself. The recent dispute about the infobox image strikes me as an enormous waste of time that could be better spent improving the article. The image is entirely suitable, whereas (for example) the "landmarks" section is frankly an almost unreadable laundry list. And, yes, the article probably needs to say more about modern Paris, and possibly the image isn't perfect, but it would not be on any reasonable person's list of the top 10 things that ought to change about this article.

But on to the process matters that belong here at AN/I.

Wikipedia is not a soapbox and it is primarily about building an encyclopedia rather than about experiments in process. Yes "anyone can edit," but we seem to be dealing with a matter here where all but one of the contributors with significant experience here are on the same side of the issue and, even if none of the people weighing in on the other side are "meat puppets," let alone sock puppets, the fact remains that they are not people who have made any signficant contributions to Wikipedia, nor have they shown any indication that they are coming in here with expertise rather than with an agenda. (I'm all for people who haven't contributed before joining discussions, especially if they have knowledge to contribute, but clearly if a bunch of people showing up at once to weigh in on one side of an argument, some off-wiki canvassing is going on.)

So here is my suggestion. User:Der Statistiker: have the sense to back down when all the other experienced editors disagree with you. And, going forward if you don't do that, yes, I will support a topic ban, which would be a pity because you obviously have more of a clue about the topic than you do about how to collaborate. If you think you can propose some hunks of prose that could be added to the article to take up the topics you think have been neglected, and that there is any chance of actually getting consensus for them, go for it, but bow out gracefully if you can't get that consensus. And if you want to round up people from off-wiki, round them up to work on articles that actually need a ton of work, in areas where they actually have expertise, not to weigh in as useless extra voices. Wikipedia is not a democracy, and when someone comes out of nowhere and weighs in on a disagreement on a talk page, they are not effectively casting votes: they are just wasting everyone's time by obscuring the strong, though not unanimous, consensus that obviously exist among the relevant parties.

And the other people working on this: the article is already protected. Don't feel like you have to answer every point Der Statistiker raises on the talk page if he's clearly proposing something against consensus. You don't have to repeat your view for each time he repeats his, or someone with no contributions to Wikipedia echoes his. And you could put some of the time saved into proposing some edits that would improve the article, especially to remove some cruft and make it the readable overview it should be.

Probably not what anyone wanted to hear from me. Oh, well. - Jmabel | Talk 02:05, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy with that... and happy to finally see some attention and an objective voice of reason. This has been going on since almost ten years already. Thanks. THEPROMENADER 07:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I now gather that there is a related sock puppet/meat puppet investigation that was not linked here. If that comes up positive, obviously I would support appropriate warnings or blocks. - Jmabel | Talk 15:57, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Sesto Elemento

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By their own admission, user Sesto Elemento deliberately disrupts Wikipedia to make a WP:POINT. At the talkpage of Paris, a heated argument is going on. Apparently dissatisfied by not having it their way in the discussion about the image in the infobox, Sesto Elemento makes a new image, later admitting it's for irony, and introduce it [322]. In the already heated atmosphere at Talk:Paris, this is highly unwelcome and only fuels the flames. Admin Bbb23 stepped in to explicitly warn everybody to take it a bit cooler [323]. User SchroCat took that advice, and in good faith launched a discussion aimed at a compromise, building on Sesto Elemento's suggestion [324]. This is Sesto Elemento's scornful response, admitting to disrupting, violating WP:POINT and heaping abuse at several other users in the process [325]. The situation is already tense, and this is the last thing called for. Sesto Elemento's deliberate disruptions and frequent PAs are very unhelpful. This user clearly needs a break.Jeppiz (talk) 20:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Update As if the above wasn't enough, Sesto Elemento are now deleting comments on ANI as well [326]Jeppiz (talk) 22:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

No, you have just edit before me. So when I saved my edit, I didn't know that you had already edited, and your edit has been erased. I DIDNT want to erase it. That would be useless. Sesto Elemento (talk) 22:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I do believe you, but please be more careful. Especially at ANI.Jeppiz (talk) 22:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

All I wish to say about the matter I have already said elsewhere (repeated in the above thread, as applicable. – SchroCat (talk) 21:04, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

All I see is that some editors try to ban editors who don't agree with them by using false or inflated accusations. After they claim that they are open to discuss changes [327]. Minato ku (talk) 21:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Minato ku, can you either kindly point out what it is you find "false" or withdraw your accusation? It's true I think you should be topic banned, but that has nothing to do with disagreement but with your frequent edit warring. I understand that you welcome an ally regardless of how they behave but that is no excuse for claiming what I wrote is "false". The diffs are there, and Sesto Elemento even admitted the whole thing was just to make a WP:POINT.Jeppiz (talk) 21:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Jeppiz. It is you who makes an accusation and who try to ban editors, so it is to you to provide sufficient evidence. This is how the court systems work not in the opposite way. Even EvergreenFir says that this is a bit premature. Minato ku (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I have provided the diffs. And EvergreenFir writes in good faith, thinking that Sesto Elemento came to Wikipedia just two weeks ago, not knowing that the user came here more than a year ago canvassed by you to make the discussion go your way ([328])Jeppiz (talk) 22:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Concerning the discussion about the image in the infobox, there are many people saying that it doesn't correclty represent the city. So the my opinion doesn't go in my way. I suggested various photomontage (and I can also obviously improve) with several other images in order to find an agreement between the two sides, thing that Jeppiz (talk) don't say, of course. [329] and the other: [330]. However, Jeppiz, and 2 others peoples (THEPROMENADER and SchroCat (talk)) don't find them to their taste. It is a flagrant case of ownership (and another user is currently writting a folder explaining that). There only argument of being against my montage is because La Défense appears [331] in background. The fact is that these people want to get the city to what it is not: a city museum. That's why I ended up creating a final photomontage with the older parts of the city, which was obviously of irony to show this aberration. This photomontage was accompanied by a sentence stating that it was the irony that Schrocat Jeppiz and apparently did not understand. I wrote the phrase along with photo upload (Jeppiz lies by saying that I wrote it later, you can see here my sentence written at the same time as the picture [332]). Finally, the last message I wrote to them again that my photomontage was only irony was probably not an attack, as he says. I also changed some of my sentence I found myself too harsh (from this [333] to this [334]). I'm not admitting disrupting Wikipédia, that's another lie from Jeppiz. In conclusion, I'm not disrupting or violating rules, I was just trying to found a agreement with proposing many photomontage, thing that Jeppiz is not doing. Sesto Elemento (talk) 21:56, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Please do not lie. - SchroCat (talk) 21:43, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Explain yourself with evidences. Sesto Elemento (talk) 21:53, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Not much to explain. You have lied in your statement above. Stop doing so. - SchroCat (talk) 22:18, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) For the moment, I'm not going to comment in both this topic and the one above. I just wanted to give a little history of my role in this dispute. SchroCat came to my talk page to ask for help. After seeing that the article was locked and reviewing the various contentious topics on the Paris Talk page, I posted this section. Subsequently, I saw things were still going poorly, so I posted this warning. Despite my warning about edit warring over the silly section header, I saw that Metropolitan had reverted yet again, and I left this warning on their talk page. Then, I didn't look at Wikipedia for a few hours (until now) because I had real life to attend to. That brings everyone up-to-date from my perspective; I haven't looked at behavior after that yet, although I can see there've been many posts on the Talk page since my warning.

Just to be clear, I am willing to block editors for violations of policy after they've been warned, but there's a difference between blocking someone for a personal attack and blocking someone for edit warring. The latter is easier to justify. Of course, as I said, if there is sufficient proof of an editor's misconduct, then the matter may be brought here, but there has to be enough evidence to convince an administrator or the community that a sanction is warranted.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment In this discussion, Sesto Elemento repeatedly accuses me of lying. It surprises me a bit, as it's all there in the diffs. Sesto Elemento did say they added a montage just to be ironic towards those who disagree. In their words " Please, tell me that you're joking...The image with the Madelaine is a joke You understand that ?! This montage I made is completly bullshit ! You don't even know what "irony" means ??" [335]. So where is the lie in saying that the user admits to disrupting? Are they disputing that adding an option to a heated discussion just to mock other users is disruptive? I cannot say I find the rest of Sesto Elemento's attack much better "A huge LOL ! Pfff, you're completly irrecoverable..." [336]. Those are the user's exact words, now they accuse me for lying when bringing it here.Jeppiz (talk) 22:02, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Because making irony is not "disrupting", as you try to make believe. And for my other comment, I edited it just after writting because it was to harsh, as I said just before (but maybe you didn't read it...). Why you didn't quote my edited message, but the old one (One that's most convenient for you, obviously)?Sesto Elemento (talk) 22:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Question - Again, as I asked above, have RfC or DRN been used? ANI seems a bit premature for a content dispute. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:18, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Very true, but it's not about the content but about Sesto Elemento's behavior of mocking other users, adding what they themselves call "bullshit", and now this latest trick of deleting comments from ANI [337]. The actual content dispute does not belong here, but disruptive behavior of that kind certainly does.Jeppiz (talk) 22:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I see. This account was created on 17:44, 17 September 2014, but I don't see many templates on that user's talk page warning them about their behavior or welcoming them and informing them of the site's rules. Again, ANI does not seem appropriate here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

True, the account is just a few weeks old but the user came to Wikipedia more than a year ago, canvassed to take part in the same edit war that is now going on ([338])Jeppiz (talk) 22:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

My account was created in January 2014 [339] but it was my french one. When I decided to merge my english and french account, my olds edits on the english account disapear, I dont't know why (I have maybe done a mistake). That is true that I said my 3rd montage was "bullshit", but it was just to show that this user wanted was absurd. Nothing else. Jeppiz (talk) has still said absolutly nothing about my 2 others propositions ( [340] and [341]), that were very serious propositions. And I can improve them, to be even more high definition). I have done a step toward them with theses photomontages. I'm still waiting his (with SchroCat (talk) and Promenader) step toward the users who wish another image, more representative. Sesto Elemento (talk) 22:56, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

This looks like it's going to go nowhere fast. "LOL" is not that disruptive a comment, by anyone's standard. The editor seems to have admitted they were attempting humor on the talk page, but with no claims that it was offensive in any way, I don't see how it will ever lead to administrator action. __ E L A Q U E A T E 02:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - in Sesto Elemento's defense, they are a 'brand new' contributor involved in a heated exchange even before they get a chance to get a 'feel' for Wikipedia editing (and understand that it is not for promoting opinion)... this is definitely not 'normal' 'new wikipedian' behaviour. What brought them directly to that heated debate (from a tower-fanclub forum) is another matter. THEPROMENADER 06:42, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Can an admin please investigate the WP:MEATPUPPET violations going on at Talk:Paris and swiftly take the appropriate action. I've left proof that the people trying to force an image are all from the skyscrapers website. If this is not dealt with in 24 hours I'll be stepping up the heat on this.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Can someone please come and have a look at this, please? The storm is over, but there is some cleaning up to do - there was obvious (and admitted) canvassing and edit-warring going on there since almost a week now, but in spite of three pleas for help on admin boards, no administrator intervened in any constructive way. I really don't understand why, but Paris-based article complaints have always been ignored - some 'off-board' reason, perhaps? Anyhow, please check on this. THEPROMENADER 18:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

And now he's back on the talk page, moving comments around (putting his first, of course) and 'giving orders' in what seems to be purposeful disruption. HELLO ? THEPROMENADER 21:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mount Laurel IP's

I've been noticing a range of IP's, all from Mount Laurel, New Jersey, reverting constructive edits as well as their own at Chicago Bears-related pages, particularly at Template:Chicago Bears roster and Template:Chicago Bears roster navbox. While they have been making constructive edits, such as updating the rosters accordingly, they have also unnecessarily reverted others' edits, such as these two edits to 2014 Chicago Bears season. If you were to look at the revision history for the rosters, the IP's also usually break the former template with their edits, further making it tougher to maintain, and including this most recent edit (in their defense, I didn't provide a source at the time for this, so I might let this one slide), these sets usually tend to be borderline disruptive, despite some attempts to communicate via their talk pages. Should we take action, or is it too minor? Zappa24Mati 23:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

You might try asking to have the templates protected at WP:RFPP. FWIW those IP's with long numbers (there is a specific term for them but it escapes me at the moment) show up in the WHOIS as Mt Laurel NJ, Richardson TX or one other city (which also escapes me) - that doesn't mean that all of the editors are in those three cities. I haven't explained this very well. Hopefully another editor or admin will add the info we need. MarnetteD|Talk 01:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

They're IPv6 addresses. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I would consider it, but with the IP groups usually being around most of the newly-signed Bears players (like with Darryl Sharpton just yesterday), I doubt protecting every new Bears player's article is going to be a good idea. Zappa24Mati 00:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks and incivility by User:Mike Searson

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• User:Mike Searson (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Mike Searson's user page violates wikipedia's policies on WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Searson writes:

As far as the critics/vandals/deletionisrs/POV Warriors on here, a wise magazine editor once told me, "If those losers had any real talent, they'd be getting paid for their work and not writing on the internet for free." Sometimes I think I should listen to him and throw in the towel on wiki. The hours suck, the pay sucks, you often deal with critics who could be compared to eunuchs in a harem: they see it done every night, they know how it's done every night, but really can't do it themselves.

For now I still believe in the project, except for some of the losers it attracts. I really don't care about losers, but sometimes it's fun to watch them dance.

Oh yeah, if you kick the hornet's nest on here, beware the deranged aspie dogpile!

Please note that the comment about the "deranged aspie dogpile" was added four days ago.[342]

Comparing editors to "eunuchs", or using the term "aspie" as a slur against fellow editors is not acceptable. Further, this incivility appears to be a longstanding pattern of behavior for this editor. See: [343], [344], [345].

In addition, there is this edit, in which Mike refers to a female senator who (he says) "Cannot Understand Normal Thought" (note the acronym). [346]

I asked Mike to retract the comments on his user page. He declined to do so.[347] Given that Mike does not see this behavior as a problem, I believe that sanctions are necessary.

Thanks, GabrielF (talk) 04:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Please consider an RFC/U. Per WP:CIVIL, ANI is for "emergency" civility situations where there is serious and immediate disruption, and some of what you've presented here is several months old. CIVIL also states civility blocks should be "uncontentious" and that "immediate blocking is generally reserved for cases of major (emphasis in original) incivility, where incivility rises to the level of clear disruption, personal attacks, harassment or outing." Given the non-specific nature of the userpage material it is at least arguable that these criteria are not met.

I should add that this is not a comment on the content of the issue. It would be just great if people didn't feel the need to throw insults around. But absent any immediate and pressing disruption to the encyclopedia or to particular articles, AN/I is not set up to deal with issues like the chilling effect of perceived impoliteness over the longer term. RfC's are. Others might argue that RFC's rarely seem to go anywhere - but that is an argument for RfC reform, not for bringing potential RfC's to ANI. Euryalus (talk) 09:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL suggests that ANI is an appropriate forum. It says: "For legal threats, bigoted attacks or other hateful speech, and other cases where immediate action is required, use the Administrator's Noticeboard Incidents page to contact the site's admins." I believe that comments Mike has repeatedly made regarding gender, sexuality, and perceived disability (in this case Asperger's Syndrome) meet that standard.GabrielF (talk) 12:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

As for bringing civility policy complaints to ANI, I don't see anything at the top of this page that saying it's only for "emergency" situations. Further, WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE gives ANI as one of two solution forums. That's not to say I wouldn't recommend RFCU in this case, only because when you bring civility issues to ANI you get accused of creating drama and threatened with sanctions yourself for not adhering to the unwritten policy that you should ignore incivility. However, for all I know, RFCU will bring you the same kind of grief. The community was opened up to this use of ANI when it closed down past civility boards. Lightbreather (talk) 16:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

He has also called me a cunt using the same "clever" wordplay.[348] Lightbreather (talk) 16:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see that he called anyone a cunt in that diff. What leads you to the conclusion that that "clever wordplay" was referring to you? Eric Corbett 16:27, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

It was in response to my taking the recipient of his sympathy to ARE.[349] (Though perhaps some would argue Mike was referring to DPL bot or SuggestBot, since they started "discussions" on the recipient's talk page between my notification and Mike's warm "just remember" words of encouragement.) Here is what turned out to be the second/final post in that discussion.[350] Lightbreather (talk) 16:57, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

So let me get this correct, "clever word play" is now seen as incivilty? Cassianto^talk 17:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

THIS kind of clever wordplay is:

Mike Searson: she is a person who Cannot Understand Normal Thought.[351]

translation: [Lightbreather] is a C-U-N-T.

Yes - that's uncivil. Lightbreather (talk) 17:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't even think it all that "clever" to be honest; someone has capitalised four words, which spell out cunt, so what? If they were small case you wouldn't have even noticed! I think you should stop being so precious. Cassianto^talk 17:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

@Cassianto. You make me laugh. Your behavior, temper, personal attacks, and foul language in regards to how you treat other editors is far worse than Mike. Caden ^cool 18:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you don't make me laugh. You make me want to eat light bulbs. Cassianto^talk 18:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You civility warriors just don't seem to get it. If others are forbidden to make personal attacks against you, then you are equally forbidden to make personal attacks against them. Simple really. 18:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

What I get is that some editors on WP need to grow up and stop being peddlers of ridiculous ideas concerning... kumquats. Don't some of you have a boycott to go to? 20:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

What boycott might that be, or are you talking out of your arse? Let's address the really serious issue here, which is that too many brought before this kangaroo court are subjected to far worse personal attacks here than anything they've been accused of themselves. Eric Corbett 20:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I simply do not see what the issue is. The eunuch comment is an analogy (perhaps in bad taste), not a personal attack on anyone. As to the rest, what on Earth is a "deranged aspie dogpile"? Is it some kind of slang for Asperger's? If so, it might be considered offensive to some people, but it is phrased so generically that I do not see what is sanctionable here. I also fail to see the point of policing someone's user page to this degree. One editor I know keeps a list in his user space of the alleged fabrications I have inserted into WP. I let him do it: it satisfies him and hurts nobody else. As for using the CUNT word play, it seems too infrequent to me. The most I would favour is some warning to not use the word play: it is needlessly offensive. But I am not sure if such a fine-tuned restriction is what AN/I is for. Kingsindian ♝♚ 21:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I have not seen the page you are referring to, but based on your description, I believe the two situations are not comparable. Wikipedia has always drawn a distinction between commenting on the content of other users' edits and commenting on editors themselves. If an editor repeatedly questions the character of people he disagrees with - questioning their masculinity, attacking their intelligence, calling them "losers", making derogatory references to a perceived disability, calling females "cunts" in a veiled way, that is clearly incivility. If that editor is unwilling to acknowledge these issues, despite multiple warnings, than administrator attention is appropriate.GabrielF (talk) 00:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks need to be personal. Meaning there has to be a subject. If I write on my user page that AN/I is a nest of vipers (as I did once about RFA), I'm not in any way making a personal attack. It's their fucking problem that they're contributing to a site and are clearly unhappy about doing so, not our business because they made that unhappiness known on what is basically "their" page. Protonk (talk) 22:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Respectfully, that is not what WP:NPA says. WP:NPA#WHATIS defines a personal attack to include: "Racial, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, national, sexual, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor, or against a group of contributors.GabrielF (talk) 00:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

But (in practice) we get and tolerate broad complaints about groups of people (where the grouping isn't something specific like "those assholes on the ABC talk page" because it would be obnoxious not to. The alternative is what we have here, someone casting aspersions on wikipedia editors as a whole and us using a bright line policy designed to prevent attacks on editors as a means to punish someone for making noisome remarks. There isn't really a subject here, no person can really demand relief from the comments quoted about (The CUNT nonsense excepted), so it doesn't make a lick of sense to apply NPA. There's an argument to be made that NPA proscribes "hate speech" writ large, but I don't think that's one which has nearly as much support as the bulk of NPA. Protonk (talk) 01:00, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Look at this another way. The comment on that user page is essentially a crude, vulgar reframing of "Randy in Boise" (a post many editors who think they're smarter than they actually are link to approvingly). There's no good reason to stir up a hornet's nest when some random editor says "all wikipedians are shitheads". The issue is much better resolved by realizing that approximately no one will read that user page and anyone who does will come away with the impression that the person who wrote it is projecting more than they'd like to think. Protonk (talk) 01:06, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Neotarf ban or block request

Resolved

 – moving to WP:AE

Hell in a Bucket (talk) 10:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I am concerned with User:Neotarf's behaviors. I'm not sure this is the appropriate forum and I damn sure can't discuss it on their page but it appears that when Neotarf get's into disputes with people among other things they will start taking aim at usernames, they have done so with me found here Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Banning_Policy/Workshop#Hell-in-a-Bucket_and_provocative_user_name which is the third time within the last two months they have attacked mine, and at least one other example in the recent past found here [352]. If even one of these usernames came close to violating the username policies I think we could assume a little good faith but these are so incredibly mellow it looks like plain old fashion mudslinging. I sure would appreciate a block for neotarf or at least a fucking good sit down to stop their shit stirring. I'd also like to point out [353] this edit which shows how Neotarf deals with disputes, here Neotarf tells a transgender editor that they are only claiming to be a woman [354] which is in violation of the ARBCOM Bradley/Chelsea Manning case. (I apologize if I offend out of ignorance, I do not wish to insult anyone transgender) Hell in a Bucket (talk) 08:07, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

[355] user notified per requirement. Hell in a Bucket (talk) 08:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• An argument attacking "Hell in a Bucket" as a username is silly. I will withhold comment on the all the horrible connotations that the username "Neotarf" could possibly raise if I followed the same logic.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 16:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Advice to a newcomer

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Kelsang Gyatso (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Hello, I am new to Wikipedia. I entered a discussion on the talk pages forKelsang Gyatso with regard to the use of the title Geshe. I tried to post clearly and appropriately, I then followed the advice to be bold and spent a few hours researching the use of the title Geshe in this instance. Once I had found what I believed to be reliable references I changed the name in the text, using a reference for each. This may or may not have been correct and I am happy to take constructive criticism and guidance. What actually happened was someone called Victoria Grayson simply removed all my work without saying anything at all. My references were then posted in inappropriate references. When I asked for an explanation someone called MontanaBW gave a vague explanation that my references were biased and in-house. I don't understand how the BBC, The Independent newspaper and a several academic articles and books can all be biased and in-house? When I asked for further clarification Monatanabw wrote a very abrupt, actually quite rude comment along the lines of "Which part of .... don't you get" The ....referred to a wikipedia phrase that seems to mean troublemaker, or disruptive behaviour, clearly inferring that that is what I am. I put a message on his talk page to say I would need to take some advice from other editors about how I was being treated and I see he has deleted his comment, without any apology or explanation. Firstly I do not agree with their arguments, they do not respond to my clear questions and I do not understand the problem with my references. Secondly is this really the way editing is conducted on Wikipedia, I expected some minor conflict but I thought it would be politely and fairly conducted, this feels very aggressive and rude. I understand my newness may cause problems and I will make mistakes, I would like to know if this sort of response is what I can expect if I continue to edit? HighWindows (talk) 10:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

If you start an RfC as you did on the 22nd of September, ignore the comments unanimously opposing your proposed changes, and go ahead with your proposed changes anyway without waiting for closure of the RfC (and mess up the page formatting in the process), then yes, this is the response you are likely to get if you continue to edit in this manner. Editing Wikipedia is a collaborative process, and contributors who edit against consensus tend to get reverted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that's a requested move, not an RFC. I don't know why the references were removed, but your changes violate the manual of style. This has been explained to you several times, HighWindows, and I think that is the source of exasperation that you experienced. Wikipedia simply does not use honorifics the way you wish to use them. This forum is not really the right place for such discussions, and I think you will find the Teahouse (advice), the Help Desk (technical help), Village Pump (debate over policy), and the dispute resolution noticeboard (content disputes) much more helpful. ANI is for when you want other editors sanctioned, and nobody has done anything sanctionable here. To briefly answer your question, each volunteer brings their own style, and some are admittedly a bit curt or confrontational. We discourage this behavior, but it is rarely enforced. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 11:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Oops - yes requested move not RfC, though my comment re consensus still applies. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not sure why this is here. A new editor who has not read all of the policies yet has proposed a move. They have been shown that the use of honourifics in article titles is inappropriate. Whether you agree with the concept in the policy or not, you agreed to those policies when you clicked "save". There's nothing wrong with your "references", and the honourific being mentioned once with ref's inside the article is appropriate - but to change the title is not. Consensus is rarely going to trump naming policies and ALL discussions are based on policy. Honestly, if you propose something and 10 people show you that your proposal is impossible to implement, and show you the proof as to why, it's usually a good time to back down instead of persisting the panda ₯’ 12:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Indeed, ANI was decidedly the wrong venue. I see that HighWindows had initially posted this at WP:EAR but removed it, apparently believing that was the wrong venue. I think that was actually quite the correct venue given this is, at its core, a content dispute. There's no behavioral missteps here. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:31, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Paris

Can an admin please swiftly block the violators of WP:MEATPUPPET at Talk:Paris. Check the history of the page, the new users who have created accounts to push their urban image agenda from skyscraper.com are all regulars see here and here. Two of them are moderators and it is very clear canvassing is going on off sites to push and try to force a change. The main offending editors are Users Sesto Elemento, Minato ku, and Clouchicloucha. There is already a thread or two further up here related to existing editors and the canvassing offwiki, but this needs to be dealt with asap. The article is already protected from being changed. More meatpuppets from the website are going to keep turning up if nothing is done, what needs to be done is a] Indefinitely block all new accounts directed at trying to sway consensus on the talk page b] Remove all posts on the talk page by the violators, c] place a protection also on the talk page to stop new puppets coming in and disrupting it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:36, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

If the article is already protected, this doesn't seem like a four-alarm fire. Your off-Wikipedia links show no actual canvassing; they don't mention Wikipedia or changing Wikipedia at all. I see no evidence of any direct canvassing or any appeals off-Wiki for people to participate on Wikipedia in this debate; I see editors with an interest in Paris and Parisian architecture, as evidenced by your links to their participation in an off-Wiki forum previous months ago. I don't see where this dangerous flood of new editors is supposed to come from, sans any actual off-Wiki appeal.__ E L A Q U E A T E 16:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Three editors from a skyscraper forum turn up in close succession purely to try to push an urban image on wikipedia. There doesn't need to be any mention of wikipedia there, the fact that the three are from such a website, two of them moderators there should be enough for an admin to warn them about meatpuppetry and to lock the talk page from further new editors, even if nobody is willing to block because of no direct proof.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Same vandalism, different IP

Earlier this month User:‪107.133.164.7‬ repeatedly added an unsourced (and clearly false) edit to the article Art Bell, claiming that Bell had died on Sept. 11. The IP was eventually blocked for edit warring and legal threats, see ‪Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive854‬#Legal threat and edit warring by User:‪107.133.164.7‬. Now a new IP has appeared, User:207.172.209.131, again inserting the claim that Bell has died, using the identical format, but with a new supposed date of death of Sept. 25.[356] As last time, there is no published information to substantiate this claim. I have reverted the edit and will continue to keep an eye on the article, but this quacks like a duck. Can we do anything about that? --MelanieN (talk) 16:34, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I remember this one. Semi protection of Art Bell would probably be reasonable. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 17:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

And now it's been done again by a third IP.[357] I think you are right. I will go and request page protectin. --MelanieN (talk) 21:05, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Done. Tiderolls 21:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! That was fast! --MelanieN (talk) 21:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Something is fishy with Days of Future Past...

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I just cleaned up the GlitchSoft DoFP game entry in Days of Future Past (comic saga) article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Days_of_Future_Past&diff=627189132&oldid=627025798 (revision when the game was added to the article) in order to make it less like an advertisement/press release. I just revealed that the user that added this game, Noeroa (talk · contribs), did nothing else before or after that edit, causing me to suspect that the entry was added as a spam. Anything we can do to follow up? J u n k c o p s (want to talk?|my log) 18:48, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• Doesn't seem to be a need. If their only edit was to include that section and it's since been refactored (and retained) we can probably just move on. I'm reading this correctly, right? One edit in June and no edits to promote the company (by IPs or other accounts) since then? Protonk (talk) 18:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, I am the one who refactored it. And I don't know if that guy had other accounts or not. J u n k c o p s (want to talk?|my log) 01:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd let it go. Better to let it go and be wrong than to WP:BITE an innocent user. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:44, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• OK then, this is closed. J u n k c o p s (want to talk?|my log) 04:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Federalist - AfD

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The article Thefederalist.com is at AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thefederalist.com. Unfortunately the website itself has canvassed editors to come and make erroneus arguments at the AfD. I think some sort of admin intervention is required, Second Quantization (talk) 23:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

12.27.243.245

The IP Special:Contributions/12.27.243.245 was recently blocked for vandalism, but continues to vandalize their own talk page, by adding inappropriate images. Please advise (and revoke talk page access). --k6ka (talk | contribs) 23:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

TP access revoked. Acroterion (talk) 23:59, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Is redaction of these diffs necessary or optional? – Epicgenius (talk) 02:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It's the usual sort of image vandalism. I think a delete/restore might be in order just to clear it for any future user of the IP. Acroterion (talk) 02:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks (and probable trolling) on Talk:Historicity of Jesus

(For reference, the first paragraph below mostly discusses article content as a necessary background to what I see as inappropriate user behaviour. Please do not misunderstand me as asking for content input on the article talk page. Please also do not take me as asking for sanctions against Mmeijieri; the latter user is also being disruptive, but has not made any personal attacks against me or -- it appears -- other users.)

Fearofreprisal (talk · contribs) has been completely devoted to this one page for the last month: he doesn't seem to have any solid ideas for improving the page, but has been posting inane arguments that seem to be promoting the fringe theory that Jesus never existed. It's extremely hard to tell. He and Mmeijeri (talk · contribs) in particular seem to be obsessed with arguments like "New Testament scholars are not historians" and "lots of legitimate historians have criticized the attempts of Christian apologists to construct 'historical Jesus' models that are in fact theological in nature". They place an arbitrary distinction between "New Testament scholars" and "historians", where even though a lot of the former are not historians per se they have rejected out-of-hand the claim by a highly-reputable historian that virtually all historians agree with New Testament scholars on this point. Can anyone look at this edit and not think Fearofreprisal is violating WP:POINT? Taking quotations from legitimate historians out of context, in order to imply that they adhere to a fringe theory discussed in the article, is extremely inappropriate, and at least one is on record as being bothered by being misquoted in this way. Once said historian wrote a 300-page book discrediting the fringe theory, and since then most of his quotes have been removed. Quotes about the historical reliability of from other scholars who have not openly complained about being misquoted are still in the article on the subject of whether or not Jesus existed. It's extremely difficult to discuss these points with Fearofreprisal in particular, since he seems to be more interested in getting a rise out of his "opponents" than in building an encyclopedia article.

But then he took it over the top by starting a new thread about me on the article talk page.[358]

I think the majority of users involved in the historicity article (and related discussions) over the last month would agree with me that FoP has been disruptive. I frankly don't care if he is allowed to continue to edit the article in the short term. But I'd like to see some reprisal for deliberately trying to intimidate me by insinuating bad faith on my part for a username change that took place two years ago...

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

NOTE: Off-topic discussion of article content begins here.

I agree that FoR is being needlessly combative, but the article does suffer from major POV issues and Hijiri himself has been very unconstructive in resolving them. He has also been overly eager to run off to various noticeboards at the slightest provocation / disagreement. I might add that I'm annoyed that my good-faith attempts to address major and long-standing POV issues that have been pointed out by many, many Wikipedians in the past are now being brought up by Hijiri as worthy of sanctions. I have received several thank-you's for my contributions to the debate and I think those who read my contributions will see that I've always been constructive and willing to to accommodate the concerns of others.

I don't know why he brings up the fact that researchers who criticise the methodological soundness and lack of objectivity of Historical Jesus research do generally agree Jesus exists. That's certainly true, and if that needs to be made even more explicit than it is right now then I'm all for it, but it's not the point of bringing up the criticism. I even explicitly added the statement that historians do not take the competing Christ Myth Theory seriously.

The point of the criticism section is that the opinion of HJ scholars should not be presented in Wikipedia voice and that biblical scholars should not be misrepresented as historians. I don't understand why Hijiri thinks the distinction is artificial. At first sight it seems obvious they are two different though possibly related disciplines. Biblical scholarship as a whole certainly isn't a subdiscipline of history, it has equally strong or stronger links with semitic studies, theology, archaeology and perhaps other fields. But sometimes things that seem obviously true turn out to be subtly false, so it's possible that the more specific subfield of HJ research is seen as a subfield of history too by historians. In that case we'd need a reliable source to tell us that. I have not seen such a source, and in fact we do have many sources (cited in the article) who explicitly deny it, including prominent biblical scholars involved with HJ research and a (modern) historian who has published a biography of Jesus.

I do think the criticism section is needlessly lengthy and duplicative with what is said in the HJ article, and I have said so before on the article Talk page. However, we've already had discussions about whether we need to have a separate Historicity of Jesus page at all, in addition to the HJ and CMT pages. At one point a lot of material was moved to these other two pages. That discussion can continue after or even in parallel with the POV issue, which does seem more pressing.

IMO the solution is what we always do when dealing with POV issues, namely to state the various opinions from a neutral point of view, taking care to give each view its due attention, not more and not less. In the interaction between scholarly proponents of the competing views various accusations have been made back and forth about possible religious or antireligious bias, lack of historical methodological soundness of methods, lack of scholarly credentials in general, lack of knowledge of Aramaic and possibly others. Accordingly, the article tries to mention any relevant background (credentials, religious / antireligious affiliation) whenever a scholar is first named to help the reader identify possible sources of bias / lack of scholarly quality. In addition I think it would be helpful if we added a paragraph that explains the distinction between theology and religious studies, since it appears to be a common source of confusion.

In closing, I urge Hijiri to be more constructive, and if he isn't, I hope his frequent unjustified appeals to various noticeboards will WP:BOOMERANG on him. It would be well-deserved. Martijn Meijering (talk) 06:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Off-topic discussion ends here.

I think we should reconsider seeking arbitration mediation, since all these unproductive trips to the administrators noticeboard don't help. Martijn Meijering (talk) 15:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

My lack of involvement for a while (aside from spending a few weeks sorting my books) has a great deal to do with FearOfReprisal, who has honestly just worn me down. As I've (more or less) said before:

• Fearofreprisal claimed that sources by Christians and even ex-Christians are inherently incapable of competently handling the historicity of Jesus, under the assumption that they automatically assume Jesus had to exist and cannot think otherwise (nevermind Tom Harpur and Docetism denying a physical Jesus, and C.S. "Mere Goddamn Christianity" Lewis was capable of separating the Jesuses of history and faith). If he had just said "Christians," it would only be potential bigotry on his part. But, he threw in ex-Christians, those who affirm the plausibility of a historical Jesus in particular. He doesn't mind people citing them when they deny the possibility of a historical Jesus (at no point demonstrating any problem with a user who misrepresented sources and cited a dozen irrelevant sources to argue that Jesus couldn't have existed), but he does when ex-Christians go against the Christ myth theory. After a time, he turned to OR arguments against RSs and vague arguments regarding the scope of the article that coincidentally eliminate the sort of material he's targeted before. -- He has a clear agenda for giving at least equal weight.
• He created a thread accusing me of an agenda, on the article talk page instead of my talk page, providing no evidence. He then edit warred to keep the thread on the page. When told that he needed evidence for his accusations, he euphemistically rephrased the accusations. When told that he should have brought any concerns over my interactions with editors up on my talk page instead of the article's talk page, he claimed the out-of-place thread wasn't an accusation of problematic behavior. When context was given for the words he took out of context, he continued to insist that I was operating with an agenda, provided diffs to the words he took out of context (as if I had denied saying those things). At no point did he provide even a reference to a conversation where I fabricated quotes. When I demonstrated how one would present evidence of an agenda (had I not been stuck on my phone in a hotel room, I would've even provided diffs instead of referencing material anyone can still see on the talk page), he continued to say that I had an agenda and showed offense at me supposedly trying to bring his religious beliefs into it (even though I never mentioned his religious beliefs, and even though it was totally fine for him to accuse me of a religious agenda without evidence). The only user to support his complaints at Talk:Historicity_of_Jesus/Archive_33#Ian.thomson was a user who also made similar unevidenced claims, and was blocked for likewise failing to assume good faith and attacking editors.

As I've indicated on the article talk page and in past discussions, I'm for including a variety of sources, even due weight to the Christ Myth Theory. Between that, me pointing out that a recently added source claims that a historical Jesus is ultimately unknowable, and my prior track record, accusing me of an agenda, especially without evidence, is inexcusable.

Since I had moved on to other things, I did not see his misquotations, but it only confirms for me that FearofReprisal should not be editing articles relating to the historicity of Jesus. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Fearofreprisal has a history of accusing others of bad faith and/or incivility on article talk pages without any shred of evidence. I do not think that's a habit we should tolerate. Huon (talk) 01:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• Echoing User:Ian.thomson and User:Huon's comments (though this is a page I informally watch but don't edit). Some remedy/warning stronger than the last visit to ANI is required. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:49, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Echoing User:Ian.thomson, User:Huon, and In ictu oculi's comments. For myself, FoR has also implied that I have no business on the article talk page because I had not edited it before. In what way is that comment appropriate? No collaboration, nor interest in resolving issues; much interest in disputation. Talk page disruption even more than article page - it is a drain on the community. I could say more, but am almost entirely away from Internet service for a time and cannot respond fully now. Evensteven (talk) 12:30, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

NOTE: Off-topic discussion of article content begins here.

• I'm not a big fan of Fear of Reprisal, but I'm hard put to see him as being the instigator of the problems with this article. The discussions are dominated by people that won't concede the obvious point that Christians and Muslims possess an inherent bias towards seeing evidence for the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. This gets consistently and insistently misrepresented as having said that Christians are completely incapable making judgements. When one side won't concede a point as obviously true as that one and persistently misrepresents the points others are making, problems ensue.—Kww(talk) 02:34, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Please quit bringing up that strawman argument (that fails to acknowledge the clear examples of Christians separating the historical and religious Jesuses I keep bringing up) in his defense and either discuss his conduct or stay out of this. FearofReprisal has also thrown in ex-Christians who see reason to accept a historical Jesus as plausible as likewise being religiously biased, and has misquoted authors on those grounds. That is not attempting to remove theologically-motivated sources, that is making bigoted assumptions about anyone who holds a position that is common regardless of religion.

His actions were not merely to remove theological resources (which would be fine), he has demonstrably sought to dismiss any source that isn't part of the Christ myth theory as being religiously biased, or twisted it to say the opposite of what it says. He has made bad-faith accusations against any editor who points out his problems.

If a Christian came onto the talk page, argued that atheists (especially former Christians) are biased against any evidence for the existence of Jesus, tried to remove or distort secular reliable sources that didn't present the Sunday school version of Jesus on the grounds that they were biased against Christianity, made bad-faith attacks on editors who tried to stop this, and then tried to justify their actions as merely trying to balance out inherent biases -- If all this happened, you'd support them being topic banned as would I. Now, what's the difference here? Ian.thomson (talk) 02:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The majority of people arguing on that page have reacted to any discussion from me, from Hilo48, from Fear of Reprisal, from anyone that argues that Christians and Muslims have to be treated as biased sources about the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth as if we were bigots. It's not a strawman argument at all, and all your "clear examples of Christians separating the historical and religious Jesuses" does is illustrate the very point I am making: saying that someone is biased is not the same thing as saying that they are completely incapable of rational judgement. It's quite normal to be simultaneously biased and rational. To deny the bias of people that consider someone to be divine is to argue against logic and human nature.—Kww(talk) 02:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

You affirm that people can be both biased and rational, and yet you do not grant that to Christians and Muslims on this issue. And please, point out (on the article's talk page, because this thread is about FearofReprisal's behavior) where the article uses theological sources (which is where the religious bias would indeed come in). You go on about how we need to acknowledge biases in Christians and Muslims, and yet you're helping someone who is misquoting sources and making bad-faith accusations just because it goes along with your POV. This is not a thread about content, it is about FearofReprisal's behavior. If you want to discuss content, go to Talk:Historicity of Jesus. If you want to post here, post about FearofReprisal's behavior.

Back to the behavioral issue at hand, what you are saying regarding Christians and Muslims being biased is not FearofReprisal's argument, which is why I called it a strawman. FearofReprisal's argument extended to the assumption that ex-Christians must also be religiously biased, but he only holds to that when they side with the historical Jesus theory and does a 180 if ex-Christians can be cited (or misquoted, which you have yet to address) to go against the historical Jesus. That is biased editing, and it is nothing but hypocrisy for you to defend it. If you wanted to stay out of this, I wouldn't blame you.

Even if you are absolutely right on content (which this thread is not about), that does not in any way defend FearofReprisal's behavior. This isn't an issue of religion, FearofReprisal has been POV-pushed, and you have defended his incivility because you agree with that POV, and tried to draw attention away from it by making irrelevant blanket statements. I have little reason to assume you're going to understand that, but I would very much like to be proven wrong on that point.

Also, please, point out how the hypothetical I provided of a Christian arguing that atheists are biased is not the mirror image of this situation. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It's easy to point out why your last point is wrong: atheists have no particular bias for or against the existence of anyone, only their divinity. As for the rest, I view FoR's misbehaviour as the flailing of a drowning man. If his opponents would listen to reason (which you have demonstrated that you will not, by persistently accusing me of failing to grant Christians and Muslims the power of reason, when I have only maintained that they are biased), he would likely be more reasonable himself. It's a cesspool of an article and a cesspool of a talkpage. I'd be just as happy to delete and salt the entire area, because I don't believe the participants will yield to rational argument.—Kww(talk) 03:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

And I have brought up plenty of evidence demonstrate that Christians are likewise capable of separating divinity and physical existence. You keep ignoring that, or else fail to get that that capacity is the same as allowing one's rationality to control one's bias. The situations are no different: an individual whose bias controls their rationality makes blanket claims that the worldview they believe to be their opposite number are incapable of letting their rationality control their bias and only capable of letting their bias control their rationality, before proceeding to disrupt the site by acting on such assumptions. The only difference is that what's happening now is a POV you agree with.

So do you do you approve of FearofReprisal's misquoting sources then? Do you approve of FearofReprisal's lying about what others say if you personally think the opposing side is being irrational? Do you really think that it's FearofReprisal who's being rational here? Ian.thomson (talk) 04:07, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Your constant misrepresentation of my statements and refusal to accept basic logic means that I have no reason to favour you in a dispute. You misrepresent me, and in the same breath ask me to be upset because someone else is, in your view, misrepresenting someone. That's the problem here: you are implicitly asking people to favour your position and discipline FoR when any review of your position and reasoning shows that the other editors have thrown up a brick wall. When everyone refuses to acknowledge any kind of middle ground, there's no hope.—Kww(talk) 04:41, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I have repeatedly said that the article should give due weight to all views, and even started a subpage just to gather and sort sources (before I gave up dealing with FoR), even going so far as to include polemic sources such as Prometheus books just to make sure that all views are covered. That's middle ground. Most of the other editors have also been trying to discuss how to give due weight to all views, or at least only academia's views, but get sidetracked by dealing with FoR trying to eliminate members of academia that he disagrees with by misusing your argument of supposed religious bias.

Your refusal to acknowledge that consensus is against you, FoR, and Hilo is a problem for the article. But notice that ANI threads aren't being made about you or Hilo, they're regularly being made about FoR's misbehavior. If it was you and Hilo, there could well progress, but with you defending someone who outright lies about sources, how can there be? Once again, do you condone FoR's misquoting? If you have to refuse to answer that because of me, you're acting out of spite instead of logic or even good faith. Ian.thomson (talk) 05:37, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ian.thomson, I suspect that if you simply edited the article to segregate the views of Christian and Muslim sources, explicitly label them as biased, and then found sources that weren't Christian or Muslim to balance the article, the behavioural problems would disappear. The problems won't go away until that is done: we can slap FoR silly, and someone else will take his place. I note that despite the controversy about the overuse of Christian sources your listing doesn't address the religion of the authors, even going so far as to label works by Craig A. Evans as "clearly academic" without noting the inherent bias.—Kww(talk) 15:14, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

As has been explained over and over, which you don't seem to be listening too, FoR has pushed for treating ex-Christians if they don't agree with his views. He has indicated that that would not get rid of behavioral problems. Quit ignoring his behavioral problems to support your POV. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I was going to post on Kww's talk page, since his comment merits a response but seems to be mostly about article content, but since Ian.thomson has already replied here I might as well throw in my two cents here. Yes, User:Kww, Christians are biased when it comes to reconstructions of the historical Jesus. Most reputable historians who also happen to be Christians can keep their biases in check, however, when they are engaging in historical research. These factors only apply to historical Jesus research (i.e., who Jesus was, what he said, what he did, whether historians can prove miracles, etc.). When it comes to whether or not a man named Jesus of Nazareth existed, Christians may also be considered "biased". However, it is worth noting that the vast majority (99.9999%) of trained historians of other theological persuasions (atheist, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Shintoist...) agree with the Christian historians that at the very least the guy did exist. This means that the bias of Christians toward the historicity question (note I'm speaking exclusively about the historicity of Jesus, not of his sayings miracles, skin colour, marital status or sexuality) is essentially negligible, and we shouldn't bring it up in the article per WP:UNDUE. However, it has been noted (in Ehrman 2012's epilogue, for instance) that the mythicist apologists overwhelmingly have their own theological bias against the historicity of Jesus, in that they grew up in Christian environs and have a specific distrust of Christianity, and believe that arguing against the historicity of Jesus will serve to discredit Christianity and solve the evils they feel Christianity has wrought. Ehrman understands and sympathizes with them on most points other than the historicity of Jesus (as do I, I should add). But at the end of the day we have one historical claim (that Jesus existed) that is accepted by virtually every scholar of every theological persuasion, and an opposing historical claim (that Jesus never existed) that is essentially only accepted by a vocal minority of adherents of one theological persuasion (atheism), the majority of whom are also vocal in their specific opposition to 21st century Anglo-American Christianity. Books defending the historicity of Jesus come from Christian publishers, yes, but also from Oxford University Press; books attacking the historicity of Jesus come almost exclusively from American Atheist Press and other publishers with their theological views made clear in the name. I don't think we should use article space to speculate about theological biases on the part of either side, but if we do one we have to do the other. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:24, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Your "99.999%" figure is interesting. First, it includes Muslims, who revere Jesus of Nazareth to the same extent that Christians do: orthodox Muslim theology is that Jesus was never crucified, but remains physically alive at the side of Allah. Second, I've asked multiple times for someone to provide examples of Buddhist and atheist historians that have stated that evidence supports the historic existence of Jesus, and no one has provided one. If you wish to have any credibility in your argument, Hijiri 88, please provide a short list of atheist, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, and Shintoist historians that agree that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that Jesus of Nazareth existed. If it's 99.999% of all such historians, it should be trivially easy to provide such a list. Then, we can add the list to the article and all the controversy will go away.—Kww(talk) 05:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ehrman is an atheist historian. He is also a reliable source on the views of the historical community (歴史学界), and he says virtually historians in Asia accept the historicity of Jesus. Christians make up only a tiny minority of the historical community in Asia, and Muslims only a slightly larger minority. Therefore, for virtually all historians in Asia to accept something, more than a few Muslims and Hindus would need to accept it as well. You're demanding that we categorize qualified historians based on their theological persuasion is an insult to said historians' academic integrity, and could easily land in trouble with WP:BLP. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

One example from one particular group does not 99.999% of a large group of things make. You've argued with me by making things up, and then asked us to be upset because someone accused you of making things up.—Kww(talk) 14:54, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Off-topic discussion ends here.

Kww, please discuss article content on the article talk page. You are as usual wrong on the substance, but this is not the place to discuss that. Hijiri 88 (聖 やや) 05:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Note that the above comment was twice removed, without explanation, by User:Kww and User:Reyk. If this thread gets archived with no result as a consequence of Kww's deliberate attempt to hinder outside input with WP:TLDR off-topic rants about article-content, a new thread will be opened in its place. And whether or not Kww's attempt to get this thread archived with no outside input succeeds, both users will be made to answer for repeated unexplained removal of other users' comments. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Your hatting of this section was inappropriate, and your claim that my revert was "unexplained" is false. I stated in the edit summary that you don't get to dictate what can and cannot be discussed on ANI. Hatting a section because an article is being discussed is not a good reason. Of course you are free to restore your comments, without the misbehaviour, and I see that you have. Reyk _YO! 06:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I did not say your reversion of my hat. I said your removal of my response to Kww was removed without explanation. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

As I said- you are free to restore any comments you made, minus the misbehaviour, and I see that you have. Reyk _YO! 07:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@User:Reyk: Collapsing off-topic asides that belong on the article talk page, in order to make the thread more readable, is not misbehaviour. It is in fact pretty standard procedure. The only thing unique about this is that the off-topic content was not an accidental, good-faith aside (if it was, Kww would have acknowledged his mistake and let it go), but a deliberate attempt to take advantage of WP:TLDR in order to limit outside input. The claim that my hatting off his content discussion with User:Ian.thomson was an attempt on my part to "remove" or "hide" legit user conduct discussion because I'm afraid of a WP:BOOMERANG against myself resulting from such discussion is an almost-laughable cover-story. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Back to the matter at hand

FoR has, as demonstrated above, attacked editors and misquoted sources. He has done this repeatedly. Article content is NOT the issue here, it is tendentious editing, plain and simple. Some editors may support this tendentious editing because it goes with their views, but such actions are in bad-faith and they need to quit defending such actions. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:29, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I do not think the problem is with FoR, but rather with the topic itself. Neither side has been without fault. I would suggest mediation. - Ret.Prof (talk) 15:43, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I haven't seen any bad-faith defenses of FoR. I've witnessed a serious WP:KETTLE problem in the discussion above, though.—Kww(talk) 22:21, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@User:Ret.Prof: Maybe so, but I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any instance of me doing something that merited a thread on the article talk page about how I have used sockpuppets to get away with making personal attacks against people (I have not) and ultimately changed my username to get away with making personal attacks against people (I have not). Whether FoR is right on the substance (he is not) is frankly irrelevant here, except for the fact that the side of this dispute that is wrong has had to increasingly resort to personal attacks, misquoting of sources, violations of WP:POINT, etc.

@User:Kww: All of the defenses of FoR have hinged on "he is right on the substance" (he is not) or "Hijiri88 is a cry-baby" (I put up with his crap for I think three weeks before posting here).

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

On the chance that anyone actually cares about building an encyclopedia, I'll point out that, despite contributing lots of POV and OR to the talk page, User:Hijiri88, User:Ian.thomson, and User:Huon have each contributed nothing to the Historicity of Jesus article. Zip.

I was wrong to link Hijiri88's use of sockpuppets and user name change with incivility. They could be totally unrelated things. (It's worth noting that he still seems to be using IP socks, though, again, it wouldn't be fair to impute any motive to it.) Fearofreprisal (talk) 02:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Umm... every time I post logged out from my phone I specify that it's me. And I don't need to WP:EDITWAR. I have presented solid proposals to improve the article (removing out-of-context quotations that imply John P. Meier, a Catholic priest is skeptical about the historical existence of Jesus, and rejects historical Jesus research. What constructive edits have you made to the article? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:24, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Note that I attempted a few times to hat off the TLDR off-topic discussions in the above section, and was repeatedly reverted by Kww and accused by them of "removing" comments. (This while Kww was somewhat hypocritically deleting one of my comments.) This is an obvious attempt on the part of someone who realizes outside input will be invariably against them to prevent outside input by forcing anyone who wants to contribute to wade through thousands of words of off-topic content dispute material. Kww will be made to answer for this repeated disruption once the FoP issue has been resolved. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: Ahem. Do you guys have some kind of Wiki-death wish? Surely you must realize the end result of escalating a dispute at ANI like this. Let's see some evidence of how progress in building the encyclopedia has been impeded in the form of diffs summarized by concise statements. Ignocrates (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@User:Ignocrates: How so? In the past, whenever I have come into conflict with a POV-pusher who was abusing/misquoting sources and aggressively making personal attacks against me and others, I tried initially discussing on the article talk pages and their user talk page, and when that didn't work eventually it came to ANI (or SPI, or some other such venue) and the community dealt with them effectively. Both Ian.thomson and I presented concise statements with diffs as evidence. Kww then came along and posted a string of TLDR comments about article content. Please actually examine who has posted what, and who has tried to do what to resolve the issue, before blanket-smearing all parties in a dispute like that. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"Blanket-smearing"? Please see WP:BLUDGEON. I don't see persuasive evidence of progress being impeded on improving the article. Do yourself a favor and return to constructive editing. ANI isn't the place to dry your tears and give out hugs. Ignocrates (talk) 14:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Can the article be written in the same way without reliance on biased sources? Of course, Christians are biased about whether Jesus existed. I think it is equally obvious that Wikipedia doesn't prohibit biased sources--but, the article shouldn't unduly represent their view. Howunusual (talk) 18:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@User:Howunusual: If all sources written by anyone who either is now or was at one time a Christian, then probably no. It's worth noting that virtually everyone who denies historicity is an atheist apologist who comes from a Christian background. In fact, per Ehrman 2012's epilogue this represents an obvious conflict of interest. It seems to me that Fearofreprisal, Kww, and the others are arguing that we should mention these biases for every scholar mentioned in the article. Ian.thomson, myself and the others appear to be arguing against this, and in my case at least it's because most of the so-called mythicists are not reliable sources, and trying to "balance" the article by presenting all the (thousands?) of reliable sources on the other side as "biased" will give readers the wrong impression. It's not Wikipedia's place to be deciding which sources are biased, when reliable sources do not make this claim. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: This is wiki madness! Iggy, Ignocrates and I do not agree on much these days but he is absolutely right in the end result of an escalating dispute at ANI like this. - Ret.Prof (talk) 14:24, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Please sign your posts Ret.Prof, and stop calling me Iggy. It's inappropriate. Btw, since we will be facing off in arbitration in about a week, it would be best if you refrained from commenting on my comments, unless its really pertinent. Ignocrates (talk) 23:24, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I think your notice to me HERE is very, very wrong. In future limit such comments to our talk pages! - Ret.Prof (talk)

@Hijiri 88: Sorry about the above disruption. I thought you were being a bit harsh with him.

@User:Ret.Prof: How so? In the past, whenever I have come into conflict with a POV-pusher who was abusing/misquoting sources and aggressively making personal attacks against me and others, I tried initially discussing on the article talk pages and their user talk page, and when that didn't work eventually it came to ANI (or SPI, or some other such venue) and the community dealt with them effectively. Both Ian.thomson and I presented concise statements with diffs as evidence. Kww then came along and posted a string of TLDR comments about article content. Please actually examine who has posted what, and who has tried to do what to resolve the issue, before blanket-smearing all parties in a dispute like that. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I've posted seven short paragraphs in seven distinct replies. I'm going to presume that your post is simply an extension of your strategy of making false statements. On the other hand, if one paragraph falls into your definition of TL;DR it might explain why having a substantive discussion with you has proven to be so difficult.—Kww(talk) 14:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and I didn't delete your distinct replies. I merely pointed out what Ian.thomson did as well, that they belong on the article talk page, and should not be posted here because of TLDR. As I predicted, your overrunning this thread with TLDR content disputes has caused two other user to come along and completely misinterpret the problem. I never should have pinged you. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Netoholic and User:Thivierr conduct at Stefan Molyneux

Netoholic (talk · contribs)

Thivierr (talk · contribs)

Stefan Molyneux (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm sort of at wits end and would like to request assistance with this editor. For the last 3 weeks, every edit of mine to a particular article, regardless of content or circumstances, is being reverted by User:Thivierr (who signs as "Rob"). For a while, he did participate in collaborative discussions on the talk page, but lately it seems like his main activity on WP seems to be to revert any and all edits I make to this article, and to do so without leaving any substantive edit comment describing his reasoning. I don't mind being reverted, if its accompanied at least by an explanation, but this daily, wordless reverting is not productive. I attempted to contact the user and ask that he either provide edit summaries or discuss these reversions on the talk page, but he rejected my request by deleting my message on his talk page. I have attempted to communicate, both directly and very actively on the article's talk page, and I am not sure what other course to pursue other than to contact others and ask for any guidance you think would be helpful in ending this situation. -- Netoholic @ 02:52, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

The last interaction between the users (here) indicates suggests that this is a WP:POINT tactic by Thivierr. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:11, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

If a single active editor (who sees this) agrees to actively monitor Stefan Molyneux for at least a month, who hasn't been involved before, I'll happily take at least that long off from editing the article, voluntarily. Basically, Stefan Molyneux has only received mainstream/reliable coverage for his "deFOO" advice to families (telling adult children to disconnect from families). That's what got him mentioned in the Globe and Mail[359] and Guardian. The Wikipedia article, however, gives the impression of a prominent philosopher widely known for his various views, despite the fact that most coverage of his views, is by himself, promotional material, and his fellow like-minded pundits. I used to try to explain this, as others have, but nobody can keep up the arguments with Netoholic. Things got so bad on the talk page, that Netoholic will censor any mention of any unwanted details, such as the mere extensive of Molyneux's wife and child (which Molyneux publicly talks about). The Globe and Mail published his wife's name, in a story that was principally about her, and her time co-hosting the Freedomain Radio show[360]. But, not only does the article not name her, and nobody can name her in talk space, but Netoholic feels the mere statement of the fact he has a wife, without a name, is not permissible. I'm all for talk page discussion, and the only user preventing it, is the one complaining above. --Rob (talk) 03:48, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

So you admit it's an WP:OWN issue with you about the article? Yeah the article is excessively using primary sources but that doesn't mean reverting anyone who you disagree with. If Netoholic is being disruptive, you should be moving for an RfC on the user rather than this tactic. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 06:24, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

It's a plane, it's superman, no, it's a red herring. Thivierr just gave a very detailed analysis of the problem and your response indicates you read none of it and threw a kneejerk WP:ALPHABETSOUP at the issue. --v/r - TP 17:19, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, here's a thread in which Rob actually argued against those of us who questioned Molynuex' notability and demonstrated a fact-based reasoned approach underlying his views.[361] SPECIFICO talk 17:28, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

If your intent is to "monitor" the article, then you need to explain why it is only *my edits* that you are reverting. Your comments about old talk page discussions have no bearing on the recent reverts you've done of my edits. I think you've simply given up any pretense of collaboration, decided to personally enact some sort of one-sided ban on me on that article, and now just check daily to see if I'm the most recent edit of the page and revert it regardless of content. -- Netoholic @ 10:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

@Ricky81682: Please examine the talk page history of the past 6 months on that article. Netoholic has repeatedly taken an extreme ownership position on various parts of the article, down to the defense of his own choice of words and grammar. He has made repeated wholesale reverts of others' contributions. In an RfC, he tendentiously argued with each participant and stalked several to their talk pages, then denied the outcome after it was closed. Netoholic's talk page comments are replete with personal attack, failure to AGF, and accusation. Just review the past month or so. He has edit-warred over Article Improvement Tags, as noted by @David Gerard: here. Many good editors, including David Gerard, @ZarlanTheGreen: (see here) have dropped out of editing the article after Netoholic's tendentious badgering. He's had similar unconstructive, repetitive exchanges with @N-HH: on the talk page here. Netoholic has repeatedly, persistently violated the decorum principle of the recent Arbcom decision concerning BLP here. Several editors noted he was on the verge of being sanctioned for such behavior relating to the RfC linked above. SPECIFICO talk 14:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Concur. Netoholic is an enthusiastic fan of Molyneux, but a rather overenthusiastic one with a fondness for terrible and non-notable sources. He has also been sanctioned already (blocks) for his conduct (personal attacks) on said talk page. I don't think there's really much room for Netoholic to complain of others seeking to curb his overenthusiasm in the name of encyclopedicness - David Gerard (talk) 16:46, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I have never been blocked for personal attacks on that talk page (and certainly not "blocks" plural), and I ask that David Gerard correct his statement immediately before I respond further. (DG: feel free to remove this reply along with your mistaken accusation). -- Netoholic @ 19:32, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Uninvolved editor comment - your block in May was for personal attacks. While they might have been left on an alternate page, they related directly to the article/talk page in question. Your subsequent block related to edit-warring at that article. So yes, a reasonable reading of your block log would suggest multiple blocks relating to that article/talk page, one of which related to personal attacks. St★lwart¹¹¹ 02:19, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Is this topic about Netoholic's blocks and bans or about continuous wholesale reverts that have been going on for months now without any discussion on the talk page? Should the article be reduced to a stub simply because one editor happened to touch it?--Truther2012 (talk) 13:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Topic ban against Netoholic then?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

WP:BOOMERANG question then. Regardless of what Netoholic has been on the verge of, the editor hasn't actually been topic banned from the article. The solution to me isn't to freeze him out, revert everything he does and demand other editors take up the task for you but to open a discussion on that editor. Do people feel a topic ban is appropriate here? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:27, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd like everyone to compare the state of the article in April of this year just before I began working on it, and the state of the article now (my last major edit). Of course, there have been other editors, but I am absolutely responsible for all the fresh sources in that article since I started working on it (literally, I can't think of a single one added by anyone else). I have proudly spent a great deal of research time on this obscure article topic adding dozens of sources and summary text. Only a handful of the sources I've found have not met the full standards of Wikipedia and been retired from the article. I am quite proud of the result, though, even now. I had the goal of perhaps bringing it to Good Article status at least, because I think every established, notable article on Wikipedia (even the controversial topics) deserves to be at that level. Its been a learning experience and I think the article is better after the (somewhat rare) fair and impartial feedback that it has gotten. When challenged on content, my first instinct is always to find new and better sources. The main problem I've encountered, is that there are a few people that come to the article carrying an ideological axe to grind against this article's subject and have no interest in actually seeing a Good Article about a subject they hate. They will attack efforts towards article improvement by both procedurally intimidating those willing to do the hard work and by directly hindering progress - edit warring instead of discussion, making "death by a thousand cuts"-style edits, attacking the borderline-quality sources by demanding unattainable standards, defacing the article with banner notices that don't apply. If you want to ban me, then you are banning the type of editor that builds towards article improvement and supporting the types of editors that only know how to destroy topics that they dislike. As a Wikipedia eventualist, I have no doubt that this will someday become a Good Article, and I believe I can be part of that process. The longer the non-contributory detractors are involved in the article, though, the longer that goal will take to be reached. -- Netoholic @ 10:27, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban of Netaholic. Sadly, his response above is more of the same denial, deflection, and projection which has hamstrung the Molyneux article for nearly six months. When sanctions have been impending or enacted, Netoholic has typically promised to do better or has tried to negotiate them away. Then the battleground behavior recurs. The Molyneux article would be just about entirely primary-sourced, promotional nonsense if all of Netoholic's contributions remained in the text. His post above demonstrates that he is not ready to contribute constructively here, so the TBAN is a suitable preventive, not punitive, remedy. Except for tweaks to articles like Philosopher which relate to his agenda at Molyneux, Netoholic has been almost a single purpose account. He's done some work on templates, but he's also gotten into various bad interactions there (it's off topic for this thread, but see his talk page history.) SPECIFICO talk 13:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Netoholic's been around WP for years, so it's inaccurate to call him almost an SPA - though I can understand that impression from the level of obsession - David Gerard (talk) 14:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I see that he was around years ago, then there was a long hiatus, then he returned with the near-singular focus. At any rate, topic ban seems like a way to solve the current problem while allowing him the opportunity to contribute constructively in other areas. Thanks for the clarification. SPECIFICO talk 14:34, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support (as involved editor). Netoholic has insisted on adding terrible and self-promotional sources that are absolutely not of BLP standard, edit-warring to keep them, and long-running personal attacks on other involved editors sufficient to net blocks for it, as documented above by @Stalwart111:. He's been as cooperative to work with on the article as a junkyard dog. If the non-RSes and self-sources were removed the article would be about a third of the size, and probably should be - David Gerard (talk) 14:21, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support It's becoming increasingly clear that Netoholic is unable to edit this article in a collaborative way. My only involvement in this is closing an RfC on the article's talk page, which provoked a rather ill-advised attempt to overturn the RFC on AN, which resulted in a unanimous endorsement and several comments on Netoholic's behaviour that are clearly still applicable. Number 57 14:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Everyone interested in this question should read that RFC appeal - David Gerard (talk) 14:29, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Linked here. SPECIFICO talk 14:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support (as involved party). Netoholic has essentially admitted and boasted of his ownership by explaining how he almost single-handedly greatly improved the article. The problem is there are only a handful of reliable sources (Globe and Mail, Guardian, Time). What he's added is mainly Molyneux's only writings, promotional material (e.g. conference bios), like minded pundits pontifications, and some videos of the man speaking. No level of work can manufacture good sources. Sometimes, the harder you work to find sources, the worse the sources you find. Netoholic is a one man army, that simply exhausts all other editors, who aren't able to re-argue the same points over and over again, so that they give up. Also, I'll admit some of actions in response were a bit petty, and I'll keep my committment to leave editing the article for a month. --Rob (talk) 15:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support (uninvolved) per Rob/Thivierr's comment up top.--v/r - TP 17:26, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Netoholic has long had ownership issues with this article, but I didn't think a topic ban was warranted until his blanket accusation that editors who disagree are "carrying an ideological axe to grind", a mindset which does not lead to collaborative editing. Gamaliel (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
  • It wasn't a blanket statement - I said a "few people come" with the axe to grind. And you're right, that mindset has been difficult to collaborate with. There have been very rare times when people with a genuine interest to improve the article, even if they dislike the topic, have made editing a pleasure. David Gerard expressed the problem perfectly above when he says he wants to see the article cut down to a third of what it is... this is the destructive attitude that has been present ever since I tried to improve the article. Note that he isn't saying that he wants to devote some time finding better sources to improve the present state of the article - he wants to destroy and tear down. And that destructive attitude comes from being opposed to an ideology so much that he doesn't even want to see it presented in anything above a stub-level article. -- Netoholic @ 18:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Longer is not always better, and sometimes it's inappropriate or promotional to have a very long article on a particularly obscure topic, especially if the sources do not support it. I don't think this attitude is "destructive". Gamaliel (talk) 19:06, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Please reread the sourcing rules at WP:BLP. They are very stringent, with excellent reason. And just as BLPs must not be hatchet jobs, nor should they be hagiographies or filled with puffery and self-promotion. BLP issues are toweringly important to Wikipedia, and we do need consistency of application per policy, lest this bad application be used as an excuse for another bad application - David Gerard (talk) 19:16, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Let's face facts. Netoholic doesn't make these accusation only against David Gerard. He says more or less the same thing about every editor who has tried to collaborate with him. He stalks people to their talk pages to pound away at his tendentious views. His repeated, strident denials open the door to a troubling conclusion. If Netoholic levies personal attacks at so many editors who are struggling to conform articles to RS, BLP, V and other key policy, should his ban be confined only to this topic, or should it be more broadly applied? SPECIFICO talk 19:23, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
      • If good sourcing is the goal (which I agree), then can David Gerard or SPECIFICO please point to any good reliable sources they've added to this article in all their edits of it? I would think that if you were consistent in your desire to make good BLPs, you'd be able to demonstrate a balanced approach by showing additions to the article as well as removals. -- Netoholic @ 19:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
        • WP:IDHT. You arn't getting it. If the sources don't exist, they cannot be added. If you are using crappy sources, they need to be removed. You'd be wise to accept that because this is only going to get worse for you. David and SPECIFICO (editors whom I have both had conflict with) are on solid footing with this one. I assure you, this is not going to turn back around on them at all.--v/r - TP 19:59, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
          • You're using a lot of "if" statements and implying that I disagree with sourcing policies - I do not disagree with them. The question is whether there has been any evidence presented that I actually advocate bad sources... and that evidence is nowhere. I will freely admit that some sources have turned out not up-to-snuff, and I am not attempting to force those, but the article as it stands today, after many people have evaluated it, is very well-sourced. I am proud to have provided all those, and that there is a real article to even be a point of discussion and not some useless stub. If the reward for someone who has made great effort to improve an article is banning from the very same article, then I deserve it... but that is a messed-up system of priorities. My dedication to work on this article has been labeled as "obsession", without evidence, when in reality its genuine effort and research with the best of intentions towards improving one tiny corner of this encyclopedia. -- Netoholic @ 00:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support - there seems to be a disconnect between Netoholic's actions and their stated goals above. Netoholic has an extensive block log with (as pointed out above) a lengthy hiatus in the middle which appears not to have advanced their willingness to function in a collegial manner. The ideal length of the article or the quality of the sources used are matters for the article talk page or other noticeboards. Disagreements over those things do not excuse poor behaviour. The issue here is editor conduct which the editor in question seems determined not to address. A topic ban from this article is a start but the only other area where Netoholic has edited in the last month resulted in a block there too. St★lwart¹¹¹ 23:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'd like to ask what, in your opinion, is the right sort of conduct I should aspire to? Keep in mind that, for the last 3 weeks, I've been subjected to wholesale reverts by a single editor (the original top of this ANI)... So how have I handled myself under that strain? I have not made personal attacks on him. I have not edit warred with him (self-limiting to about 1 edit a day). I reached out to him on his talk page, and was rejected. And then I sought help from uninvolved people by posting here. Other than completely walking away from the project, what could I have done differently? Could it be that the blocks you refer to have been a result of past strains which I didn't handle as well, and am now trying to work through more constructively, like asking for the assistance above? -- Netoholic @ 00:17, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Yes, but only 3 weeks before that you were blocked for edit-warring at that article in question. The statistics for the article are telling. The article is 42k bytes in size but you've added 67k bytes on your own, making 60 more edits than the next most active editor, 168 more than the next and 215 more than the editor you accuse of "wholesale reverts". Uninvolved editors are indeed likely to view statistics like that as "obsessive", whether you like it or not. If you have a content dispute with other editors, bring it to the attention of others via RFC or one of the many content-related noticeboards. Bringing it here will likely end badly - case in point. You need to learn to walk away and find (as you nicely put it) a different "tiny corner of this encyclopedia" to work on for a bit. If you can't bring yourself to do so, the community will force you to do so. My concern, as above, is that the only time this month that you have edited something else, you got blocked there too. St★lwart¹¹¹ 01:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• What I brought here was not a content dispute, it was a single editor's ongoing actions. WP:BOOMERANG documents a possibility not a prophecy that must be fulfilled. I started working on an article that I found needed work and was willing to devote time. That is not obsession, that is initiative. Are you saying I should graze around making minor updates all over rather than making a deep dive into a single topic? I guess that is one way to steer clear of controversy... but its hardly the sort of thing that results in real encyclopedic substance. Featured Articles certainly don't get to that level by drive-by editors... they get to that level by having a team of people collaborating (or in your terms "obsessing") on the subject for a time. Where was the teamwork here? Why am I the only one expressing a desire to get this article to Good Article status? Shouldn't that be something every Wikipedia editor wants to see happen? -- Netoholic @ 01:35, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• I get the feeling that no matter what anyone says, you don't have any intention of listening. Whatever you believe or feel or think with regard to that article, you're making no progress there. Why not just move on to something else? As I said, if you can't, the community will move you on. St★lwart¹¹¹ 02:05, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• I actually had pretty much moved on from the article, getting back to template maintenance. SPECIFICO, though, who has been involved in the article for far longer than I have, keep returning to it and making what I can only describe as "death-by-a-thousand-cuts" style of editing. He has also been blocked for edit warring on the article, and in fact is currently under an ArbCom ban on a certain class of BLPs for his misbehavior on those. That misbehavior seems to have spread to this very closely related BLP. I will take a break from the article voluntarily for as long as he does so - lets say up to 3 months. Does this sound like an acceptable deal? We can both use a break from it. -- Netoholic @ 02:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• You aren't hearing us. It is entirely appropriate, and approaching mandatory to remove content that is poorly sourced. There are elements you could focus on that have some sourcing, but you drew your line in the sand on the weak stuff. choose your battles. many people have now told you the same thing, and you arent hearing it. support topic ban Gaijin42 (talk) 02:49, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support topic ban, as an uninvolved editor, who has now read this discussion and a couple of months of talk page discussion. Netoholic seems incapable of behaving reasonably and collaboratively regarding this topic. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:55, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Being that you're uninvolved, I'm very interested in hearing what specifically led you to that conclusion. If anything good is to come out of this, it is feedback from others that would help me pinpoint what makes it hard to reason or collaborate with me. -- Netoholic @ 07:16, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• You could start with - "getting an entire thread worth of guidance and advice and then ignoring it and asking for guidance and advice". St★lwart¹¹¹ 08:30, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• @Stalwart - I'll limit this to the advice you've given specifically. In my re-read of your posts here, the only actionable advice from you was "need to learn to walk away". Since you're also voting to ban me, this advice is kind of a tautology (how can I choose to walk away when also being told by you to stay away?). The feedback I'm looking for is about what can help lead toward collaboration, rather than separation? What can you pinpoint is the problem that has prevented that, and why do you think it can never be resolved? -- Netoholic @ 09:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• No, it shouldn't be limited only to my advice. I'm just one of a group of editors (many of whom have never edited the article in question) who have told you to drop your stick. You can't or won't so we're prying the stick from your grasp. St★lwart¹¹¹ 05:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:Topic Ban is designed to be invoked upon editors whose conduct has been disruptive to the topic. I do not see how posting too much information or active involvement in the Talk process is disruptive. --Truther2012 (talk) 17:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

  I submit that bad BLP edits count as a disruption of the topic itself. BLP sourcing is harsh, for good reason. The persistent posting of bad sourcing itself counts as notable disruption that causes damage - David Gerard (talk) 19:42, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

"Active participation in talk" is rather a charitable description of Netoholic's behavior, methinks. SPECIFICO talk 20:23, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I have re-added this section, after it was archived, because an admin still needs to close the discussion. --Rob (talk) 02:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Check Please

We had a bout of sockpuppetry earlier today on a Milhist page, socks which @The ed17: dealt with. In one such post from one of the socka a promise was made for a round two, which I apparently caught and dealt with, however I've never had a run in with a legitimate sock like this before, and would like an extra set of eyes to double check my actions. The accounts in question are @The Cosmic Master: and @The Cosmos Leader:. Thanks in advance, TomStar81 (Talk) 08:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused. Legitimate socks are users such as Nyttend backup, which I use to prevent password theft (see WP:Sock#Legit), so presumably you mean something else? And for the Milhist page, do you mean Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators/September 2014/Tally? Nyttend (talk) 11:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

They are both tagged as socks of a fairly prolific sock master. Ravensfire (talk) 14:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

@Nyttend: I didn't interpret OP as stating that the socks were legitimate, but making the point that a legitimate sock wouldn't respond that way, therefor it is unlikely to be a legitimate sock.--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:54, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't either; my point was that I didn't know how to interpret this statement, since the normal meaning clearly wasn't applicable. Don't expect a speedy response from me if you reply; I'm on the road all day and taking advantage of a hotspot while eating lunch. Nyttend (talk) 17:21, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

My take: the OP identified two accounts as socks and blocked them. Had some concerns that they might be legitimate socks, in which case blocking would be wrong. Made the determination that it was unlikely enough to warrant a block, but asked for a review in case someone else might see it differently.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:50, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I suspect they are sock accounts of the banned editor Mr Wiki Pro (talk · contribs), hence the post here. Do i need to inform anyone or blacklist the accounts or add additional tags or anything along those lines? TomStar81 (Talk) 21:39, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

comments about !voters at an AfD

There is an AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thefederalist.com

There are far too many editors there to consider notifying them all separately, so the notification will be made at that AfD.

A number of !voters (7) have notes attached that they were canvassed for their !votes. Some of them are long-time Wikipedians. Is the use of such an accusation on a broad scale proper in an AfD where no such issue has been raised at any other noticeboard? I consider the canvassing issue to be serious, but serious issues warrant more than notes attached to !votes, and if the canvassing was not in violation of any policies, then ought the accusation be bandied in a place where most folks would never respond to it? Cheers. Collect (talk) 11:54, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• As someone who only made a comment there, I would be very interested in knowing exactly which editors your accusation is aimed at? I couldn't find the notes you refer to. VMS Mosaic (talk) 12:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

VMS Mosaic, run a search on the AFD for the phrase An editor has expressed a concern. Nyttend (talk) 12:58, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Those notes are not "notes attached that they were canvassed for their !votes" [emphasis added]. They are templates added by a different editor suggesting (without evidence) that those editors' were canvassed. Sheesh. JoeSperrazza (talk) 14:14, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

A look at the recent history of Thefederalist.com (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) definitely reveals some bad behavior by editors who should know better. Kelly ^hi! 13:44, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

…which happens to include the OP…

On an unrelated note, isn't there a template that warns an editor that they have been canvassing other editors? Can't we warn these editors who have canvassed? – Epicgenius (talk) 14:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure who is supposed to have done the canvassing. Kelly ^hi! 14:13, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The "canvassing" was done by multiple sites discussing the deletion discussion as stories, and linking to the page . As far as I can tell those sites writers are not wikipedians, and would not be aware of, or subject to our policies. Now, we may need to take into account the influx of editors when evaluating the consensus, but tagging everyone and accusing them of meatpuppetry is probably not helpful to the discussion. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• http://thefederalist.com/2014/09/26/wikipedia-is-now-trying-to-eliminate-the-federalists-online-entry/
• http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/26/the-federalist-targeted-for-wikipedia-deletion-after-criticizing-neil-degrasse-tyson/
• http://washingtonexaminer.com/wikipedia-wants-to-ban-acclaimed-conservative-site-the-federalist/article/2554032

Gaijin42 (talk) 14:20, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#The_Federalist_-_AfD--S Philbrick(Talk) 15:13, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The Canvassed template calls out a particular editor for possibly having been canvassed, without naming the accuser or supplying any evidence. I've never tried to put a template up for deletion, and at the moment I don't have time to learn how, but from reading the AfD it seems like this template is doing more harm than good. ReverendWayne (talk) 15:48, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I've never seen this template before, and I thoroughly agree with your statement. It's one thing to say "this has been advertised on another website" and place the {{notavote}} template, but it's completely different to say "this person was canvassed off-wiki", since that's pretty much impossible to prove. If someone got canvassed on-wiki, we can mention that with normal text; no need for the template, since that's more likely to be misused (as here) than used properly for on-wiki canvassing. Nyttend (talk) 17:27, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for noting the actual problem - that of unnamed accusers labelling legitimate Wikipedia editors using an anonymous template which could harm those accused of being canvassed. Collect (talk) 00:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, I did somewhat misunderstand your intent in coming here, so my first comment missed your point. VMS Mosaic (talk) 03:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• That entire AFD nomination is silly and appears to be an attempt by a handful of editors to engage Wikipedia in a battle with a political website. The whole discussion damages the credibility of the project, though I'm sure Wikipedia will survive just fine. I saw Jimbo discussing this endlessly on Twitter last night. Kelly ^hi! 10:44, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

CosmicLifeform insults

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

See here ("..when assholes like you and SkepticalRaptor..") and here ("..long list of complete fucking assholes .."; "..Let me give you a clue, fuckface.."; with summary: "Fuck you."). Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 15:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

What admin action were you expecting? The offending word in the first link has been removed, and I see no evidence that you attempted a discussion with the editor before coming here, which is normally a requirement.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:04, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The offending word in the first case was removed by another editor, not by CosmicLifeform and the insults in the TP of the Younger Dryas article remain. Given that this user has an extensive history of warnings on account of his behaviour, one more warning seems quite useless. What topic precisely would you have me "discuss" with him Sphilbrick? "Please don't call me fuckface and asshole"? What admin action do you presume I am after? I don't believe this is a particularly hard case to crack. Regards. Gaba ^(talk) 16:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

No, it is quite simple. You should let the editor know the phrasing is improper. If they refuse to address it, then ask for admin action.--S Philbrick(Talk) 16:21, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Because there is always the chance he doesn't know that saying "fuckface", "asshole" and "fuck you" to another editor is improper? Seriously? Gaba ^(talk) 16:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

That's correct. Fuckface. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 16:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

What about ^ this Sphilbrick? Should I also collegially discuss the matter first? DangerousPanda since you were kind enough to deal with the previous editor when Sphilbrick wouldn't, please take a look at this. Thanks. Gaba ^(talk) 17:38, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, seriously. Because sometimes people say things in the heat of the moment, and if you have a quiet, non-confrontational word with them, they may be willing to apologize. Bringing it to a drama board is rarely a way to defuse a situation.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:09, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Sphilbrick "In the heat of the moment"? That editor insulted me twice in two different pages and that was his first interaction with me. Which moment are you talking about? What situation was I supposed to "defuse"? There was no "situation" at any "moment" he just appeared out of nowhere and insulted me. You know, apologizing for having made a terrible call (ie: not blocking the offending editor and questioning me instead) is an option here, specially noting that the editor is now blocked by an admin and another one has said he would also have blocked. Gaba ^(talk) 21:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Philbrick? Are you kidding? Your reaction to someone throwing around expletives at people is "You should let the editor know the phrasing is improper". That's the most stupid reply I have ever seen by someone at ANI, and that's some achievement. How the did you even get admin bits, at a raffle? Your judgement is awful. Second Quantization (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

If user A calls user B by some obscene name, then if user A is OK with user B calling him that name right back, then all is well. If not, then user A needs to be dealt with. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:35, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. But this is ANI, not the mommy page. Editors are expected to try to deal with issues on their own, and only if that fail, get admins involved. Unless someone changed the rules recently without informing anyone.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, there used to be rules about civility, but those rules are effectively obsolete. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

In case it was missed, see the top of this page:

• Before posting a grievance about a user here, please consider discussing the issue with them on their user talk page.

--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

In case you missed it Sphilbrick: what issue am I supposed to be dealing with? An editor that has been extensively warned in the past about his behaviour in his first interaction with me calling me "fuckface" and "asshole" leaves very little to be discussed, wouldn't you think? I am seriously beginning to question your adminship status here. Gaba ^(talk) 17:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

There used to be civility rules here. Seven years ago I was blocked for several days for calling someone an "idiot". The civility rules have since been rendered obsolete through admins' unwillingness to enforce them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:01, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Which is not completely true in this case because Panda has already blocked CosmicLifeform. As to "posting a grievance about a user here", this user's talk page message speak for themselves and I don't see how any further personal warnings would've changed anything. Reporting this to ANI straightaway was the right thing to do. De728631 (talk) 18:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

It's nice to know that someone is willing to enforce the civility rules. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Please review your own posting here. If there has been extensive warning, which may be a legitimate reason for not adding yet another warning, you should have noted that. You posted here, with only two links, one of which had been cleaned up before you posted.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:24, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Except that after I noted that your position did not change and apparently hasn't changed even now. So how about you review your own posting here. Gaba ^(talk) 21:55, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

I have to apologise - he posted to me first as I'd been involved, but I have been busy and away from home and forgot about it when I got back. I would have blocked him again if Panda hadn't blocked him. Last time I also blocked an IP he was using. Dougweller (talk) 20:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Warm fuzzy message

Please look at User talk:RHaworth#The irony of deleting the The Warm Fuzzy Tale which has been repeated out of context here and judge if any action need be taken. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 21:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

• That is clearly a personal attack. Ironic, given the non-notable article he/she created. I hope in real life that this person is not a clinical psychologist. --I am One of Many (talk) 21:39, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I've removed the VPT copy of the rant [362]; also dropped a 4im NPA warning on the user's talk page. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Ownership behaviour on the Paris article

This is an unfounded and retaliative report. Metropolitan has been blocked for 60 hours for filing this pointy report that amounts to harrassment of the accused parties. De728631 (talk) 11:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Addendum: The block has been reviewed at WP:AN and I have now lifted it. This report, however, has not been a matter of review, but consensus for it being unjustified has been observed there nevertheless, so it should remain closed. De728631 (talk) 02:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Investigated case

As explained on Wikipedia:Ownership of articles:

All Wikipedia content − articles, categories, templates, and other types of pages − is edited collaboratively. No one, no matter how skilled, or of how high standing in the community, has the right to act as though he or she is the owner of a particular page.

Article involved in the case

• Paris (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved in the case

• Dr. Blofeld (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• assisted by SchroCat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Context and events

User:Dr. Blofeld arrived on June 23rd 2013 with the constructive intent to bring it to GA status through a major overhaul [363]. Then, he performed 386 edits from June 23rd to July 7th 2013 [364] and the article indeed earned GA status the same day [365].

The problem is that this version, rushed to GA status, was not consensual at all. Two major problems emerged from the community:

• Out of 42 sections and sub-sections, the single sub-section "Landmarks by district" was expanded to the point of making up, alone, 23% of the article: 124 lines of code out of 537. (sub-section[366], discussion[367])
• The infobox image was replaced despite the former one having been approved through multiple past arbitrations (2013[368], 2013(RfC)[369], 2010[370], 2006[371]).

Then the conflict started.

Evidences of Ownership behaviour

Here starts the case of ownership behaviour, User:Dr. Blofeld using a Tag team involving first User:SchroCat (and possibly other users later), to protect his personal work, rejecting other advice.

Diffs and Links to the evidence

• On the same day of July 7th 2013, User:SchroCat appeared for the very first time on the Paris article, just to erase new content, asking User:Der Statistiker to submit on the talk page any change before editing the article [372].
• It appeared after investigation that User:Dr. Blofeld and User:SchroCat have known each other for a long time and have the habit to thank themselves for the mutual services they give to one another [373] [374] [375] [376]. On November 28th 2012, User:Dr. Blofeld even wrote to User:SchroCat: "Appreciate everything you've done for me" [377].
• On August 5th 2013, User:Dr. Blofeld writes to User:Superzoulou: "Please draft a version of the demographics section in your sandbox and you might be surprised that I might be accepting of it" [378]
• On August 27th 2013, User:Seudo points out the oversized landmarks section on the talk page [379]. User:SchroCat still pretends to be independent from User:Dr. Blofeld [380], despite multiple reverts to bring the content back to User:Dr. Blofeld version [381] [382] [383] [384] [385] [386] [387] [388] [389].
• General use of personnal insults and patronizing on the talk page against a large variety of users:

• Der Statistiker is "stupid" [390].
• Another unidentified editor is a "newbie" [391].
• "For Fuck's sake", adressed to User:Sesto Elemento [392].
• "Fuck off with your insults", adressed to User:Sesto Elemento who it's true was losing patience as yet another proposal for consensus was once again failing [393].
• "Oh, FFS, more trolling by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about?", addressed to User:Metropolitan when I first warned them about the possible case of ownership behaviour. [394]
• "Othercrapexists" addressed to User:Der Statistiker who was proposing yet another solution [395].
• "complete twat" addressed to User:Metropolitan [396].
• "Prompted by nothing but a bunch of amateurs" addressed by User:Dr. Blofeld to obviously anyone disagreeing with him. [397].
• "amateurish" repeated by User:Dr. Blofeld [398].
• "established respected editors" vs "newbies" again (which is wrong by the way as many people he disagrees with have been here for a long time) [399].
• "go away" addressed to User:Clouchicloucha [400]

• Use of the rushed GA Status to present User:Dr. Blofeld complete overhaul of the article as being the result of a consensus (which it isn't as shown above) [401].
• User:Dr. Blofeld proposed in an arbitration that "only established editors who have edited in the last few weeks prior to this to be permitted to vote" [402].

Tag teaming and contacts

Apparently User:Dr. Blofeld and User:SchroCat know a lot of people and multiple ways to communicate with them.

• User:Jmabel alerted that he's been contacted off-wiki by both users [403].
• User:bbb23 alerted he's been contacted by User:SchroCat, this time through Wikipedia [404].
• User:Dr. Blofeld was called "Ernst" by User:Drmies. I've seen no mention of that first name on Dr. Blofeld's profile [405].
• By a tremendous luck User:Betty Logan, who has never edited the article of Paris (which isn't a problem in itself, at least for me), came around to express her support of User:Dr. Blofeld [406]. It appeared that, actually... both User:Betty Logan and User:Dr. Blofeld are friends [407].
• Some conflicts totally unrelated with the topic can even pop up for no reason. Apparently User:Dr. Blofeld is in conflict with User:Caden [408]. Glad to know but quite irrelevant.

Warning posted on the talk page

I've posted a first warning on the talk page about the Ownership issue [409]. This has lead to only more insults [410] and threats [411]. User:SchroCat even attempted to dissimulate my warning in changing the title of the section [412] [413] (the last revert being performed by User:Coldcreation who erased by the way one of my messages).

And last but not least. Both users have also the habit to flood discussions so much they become impossible to follow. Don't be surprised if dozens of comments follow. Metropolitan (talk) 21:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments only below this line

I've notified User:SchroCat as asked when a new discussion is started on the Noticeboard, but he erased my message [414] - Metropolitan (talk) 22:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

He's permitted to erase it, and it's pretty clear that he read it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:11, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Metropolitan (talk) 22:28, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

All the editors named in your "tag teaming" section are long term contributors in good standing. They all operate independently of each other and their judgement is reliable - though not infallible. As I read through all of the above the ownership problems look to be on the OPs side. Please be aware of WP:BOOMERANG. MarnetteD|Talk 23:20, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The section is named Tag teaming and contacts. The names mentionned there are essentially those of people alerting of contacts on and off-wiki, it is not those of Tag team members. The users involved in the case are those appearing in the Users involved in the case section. All other names mentioned have only the value of victims or withnesses. Thanks to bring me the opportunity to make this point even clearer.

As for the WP:BOOMERANG, I fail to understand the logic, if your idea is that it's actually me who consider I own the article, then check my contributions and tell me when exactly I have prevented anyone to edit the Paris article. Yours faithfully. Metropolitan (talk) 00:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The point that you are missing is that Wikipedia operates by WP:CONSENSUS. There are appropriate ways to try form a new consensus. Making unfounded claims of "tag teaming ownership" is not one of them. Nor is WP:WIKILAWYERING or treating Wikipedia as a WP:BATTLEGROUND. MarnetteD|Talk 00:50, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, I'm glad you agree with me. As stated on my claim, User:Dr. Blofeld breached WP:CONSENSUS, probably without noticing, when he performed his massive edit (something I think he has probably done on good faith). The conflict comes from the fact that, from that point, he protected his work despite past WP:CONSENSUS. Everything is carefully explained. For the WP:WIKILAWYERING, I only attempted to be as factual as possible and want to be answered on those facts. And finally the WP:BATTLEGROUND is exactly the reason why I report all the insults and threats which have gone on for just too long. I'm really sad to bother administrators with this but I cannot see how things can become constructive again after the joke the Paris Talk page has become. Unfortunately. Metropolitan (talk) 01:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Haha, get a grip. Drmies using 'Ernst' is a playful allusion to the character from which User:Dr. Blofeld has taken his name, Ernst Stavro Blofeld. 94.194.73.200 (talk) 01:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment The Paris article came to my attention via an edit-warring report and while I have interacted with Blofeld in the past I had no knowledge of his involvement at this article prior to reading through the dispute on the talk page. He has not solicited "support" from me in any way, shape or form. My sole input at the article was to offer general support (with a single comment on the talk page) for his infobox image, mainly because I agree with him that in the case of a city with several major landmarks such as Paris, a montage is a superior choice to a single image in the lead. It seems to be a common practice on articles about major cities, and that's basically all there is to it for me. Betty Logan (talk) 01:24, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The fact that you have interacted with Dr. Blofeld repeatedly over time on your respective talk pages doesn't make you very neutral in this case either, especially when you come to the Paris talk page just to support Dr. Blofeld ([415]) and not to make comments or proposals unrelated to Dr. Blofeld. Der Statistiker (talk) 11:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oh for fuck's sake. Yes, Ernst is Blofeld. He has a white cat and is evil. What we have here is a half-assed attempt at a concerted effort to get an image changed. A discussion ensued, an admin (De) closed it--as it happened, I was about to close it but De beat me to it. If these editors here want to start something, I suggest the first thing they do is ask an uninvolved editor to check if De gave a valid evaluation of the discussion--and maybe they can ask nicely. On the other hand, we have had an edit war here with a whole bunch of apparent SPAs causing the article to be locked, and a lot of heated disruption on the talk page. If Blofeld and Schrodinger's Cat lose their patience and utter a choice word or two, meh. As to how I got there? I love Paris in the springtime, I love Paris in the fall. Drmies (talk) 01:59, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• 0.o Ah, another skyscrapercity.com member complaining. People from this forum have a utopian view on Paris that is quite unreferencable, and they've been using Wikipedia to shout it as 'fact' to the rest of the world since years already. The (amazingly) low edit-rate of Paris-based articles, and general English-wikipedia ignorance about the rather unique way Paris functions, only makes it easier for them, but every time they encounter opposition, the subject of WP:OWN comes up without fail. Whoever pushed them to come here, possibly a forum member themselves, has never come forward. Related cases: [416][417][418][419] THEPROMENADER 06:36, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments people. The only thing I can see wrong is that the Landmarks section now does look way too bloated. It didn't seem as long before, I've not looked at this fully in a year really. As echoed by Jmabel, it doesn't read too well given the amount of places mentioned. The detail belongs in the Landmarks of Paris article. I'll condense it to a basic sumamry of the most notable landmarks when it is unlocked. But the montage is a non issue, and this is clearly pathetic time wasting. You can't organize a bunch of meat puppets to try to sway consensus, to go on about it for days on end and not expect one of the regulars to snap occasionally. I still think the best decision for wikipedia in the long term would be to block anybody from skyscrapers.com commenting on Paris, including Metropolitan as they're clearly not here to be constructive.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:02, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I concur with everything Betty Logan says above. I was not approached; in fact, it was me who approached them as I follow their contributions and looked in for myself. I much prefer the montage to the singular picture and I think it pretty poor of Metropolitan to bring this here as opposed to opening an RfC. I understand that there has been accusations of tag-teaming and ownership: well, in my experience these terms are indicative of someone not getting their own way. This is more of a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT than anything else, as the consensus is clear that it favours the montage. I have found the Metropolitan and his pals to be thoroughly odious and they have done nothing to try and resolve the situation or appease the consensus. Instead they warr, canvass, and snipe their way through to getting their own way. Cassianto^talk 09:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment This is a typical case that should result in a swift WP:BOOMERANG. Contrary to what Metropolitan claims, the two users he mentions are just a couple of a considerable number of regular Wikipedia users (I count at least eleven) who favour the current version. In opposition to these eleven users are two regular users, and a number of meatpuppets canvassed to the article. A large numbers of admins have looked at the article already, and confirmed that their is a consensus for the current version. This is a prime example of where the accuser ought to be the accused.Jeppiz (talk) 11:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
  • • Agree, this is past disruptive. I weighed in at the discussion, so I can't do it, but... (and seriously, "Ernst..." as evidence for meatpuppery? Just Googling "Ernst Blofeld" would let even the most dry person know that it was a joke). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

To me this comment by Dr. Blofeld addressed to User:Superzoulou is quite convincing evidence of WP:OWN: Please draft a version of the demographics section in your sandbox and you might be surprised that I might be accepting of it if it isn't too long and doesn't have too many tables.". Der Statistiker (talk) 11:31, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Goldarab and scabrous attacks/threats aimed at me, not (I believe) technically rising to the point of potential libel/defamation

Resolved

 – User blocked indefinitely

• User talk:Goldarab
• Goldarab (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Goldarab removed a person from a list of alumni of a college because that person has been convicted of crimes, and he didn't want the college associated with that person (although some folks suspect she was the victim of a frame-up). I restored her and found a source. He removed her again; I reverted and gave him a non-templated warning about vandalism and NPOV editing. He has since placed a scabrous personal attack on me, with threats of outing, on that talk page; and reverted a series of edits I'd made to other articles, as well as once again removing the cited reference to the alumna.

I have removed the attacks, given him a level-2 template vandalism warning, and am now asking that some non-involved editors look at his recent reverts of my edits, as well as his attacks and threats of outing. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I have blocked the user indefinitely. Daniel Case (talk) 04:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I saw Goldarab repeating the unexplained removals of sourced material by IP addresses by reverting Orangemike's reinstatement of the material. There's nothing obviously wrong with the material that I can see, and without any explanation the blanking of content does not seem appropriate. I have reverted back to the version of each article as Orangemike left them. Hope that helps. Neatsfoot (talk) 09:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Herbyplanet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be a brand new user and is repeating the edits. WTucker (talk) 21:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Request rangeblock for 108.5.64.0/21, 108.5.72.0/23, and 108.5.74.0/24

I have been tracking down an IP-hopping vandal, and I think a range block is in order for 108.5.64.0/21, 108.5.72.0/23, and 108.5.74.0/24. Almost every single edit from these IPs since June 2014 has been very specific forms of vandalism, mostly about animated films and shows, voice actors, and theme parks, indicating that they are the same problem user and collateral damage would be minimal. I have personally reverted over a hundred edits, and there are literally hundreds of bad edits reverted by other users. The edits take one of the following three forms:

• Adding unsourced info to BLPs of actors and composers, including unsourced names of children, unsourced ancestry (e.g. [420]), unsourced and often incorrect birthdates and locations (e.g. [421][422]), fake animated future films and shows (many 5+ years in the future, e.g. [423]), fake future children and spouses (e.g. [424][425]), and unsourced roles and jobs (e.g. [426]).
• Adding information about fake animated future films and shows, including fake cast lists, to lists of films (e.g. [427]), articles about songs supposedly in those films (e.g. [428]), articles about the studios supposedly producing the films (e.g. [429]), actors, etc.
• Adding fake information about future rides, events, and parks to articles and templates about Universal Studios, Disney theme parks, Six Flags parks, and roller coaster manufacturers (e.g. [430][431]).

This editor is very consistent, adding information about the same fake film or ride to several articles to make it appear legitimate. This editor also frequently capitalizes words inappropriately (especially "Angrily") and adds links to non-notable children, indicating it is likely the same person making the edits.

I didn't include most of the diffs here, as there are literally hundreds, but I've compiled a list of IP addresses whose contributions have met this pattern:

--Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 19:04, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

• I'm restoring this from the archives as this editor has begun editing from another IP address in this range, 108.5.72.174, in violation of the 1 week block issued to 108.5.72.5.. This is the exact same pattern of vandalism, including adding unsourced info to BLPs (with weird capitalization) [432][433], adding links to non-notable children [434], adding infomation about fake amusement park rides that were "announced" in a date far in the future [435][436][437], etc. If this isn't the appropriate place to request a range block, please direct me to the appropriate forum. Thanks. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 03:17, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked 108.5.64.0/20 for a year (anon only). That range has been blocked several times previously and here doesn't appear to be anyone else editing anonymously from it. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 12:46, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

More Siduri socks

We've got another influx of Jim-Siduri sock/meatpuppets at Jimbo's talk page and WikiProject Countering systemic bias (though the WikiProject edits have been cleaned up). So far, we've got IPs 166.137.8.20 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 166.137.8.33 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 166.137.8.26 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), and 66.14.164.195 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (which has a pleasant message about the Church of Siduri on the Talk page). Not sure if (range)block or SPI is the best option. Woodroar (talk) 10:05, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Hardblocked stable IP 66.14.164.195 for 6 months, soft-blocked the small IP range 166.137.8.* for 3 months. Hatted off thread on Jimbo's page with a sock note, to the extent it had already been responded to, removing the more recent sock posts in the thread. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Block evasion on B. R. Ambedkar

Siddheart is using a new sock account(Arvindnirvana) for edit warring on this page. [438], [439] are same as [440], [441], [442](all blocked socks). Bladesmulti (talk) 10:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Dougweller, JimRenge, and I reverted 2-2-2 times, but this sock has reverted 6 times. Bladesmulti (talk) 12:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

User blocked for 24 hours, I am opening SPI, will update too. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:06, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Block review?

Callanec has mentioned on my talk page that as I reverted this editor I may have been too involved for a 3RR block. I take his point, but it seemed an obvious sock and an obvious block. Still, I'm open to trouting and if anyone wants to unblock go ahead. Dougweller (talk) 07:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Callanecc might have some point, but we can say that no other admin was going to take action regarding this disruptive long term abuser. I had seen that you had blocked him, just like Future Perfect at Sunrise has reverted and blocked the socks of ZORDANLIGHTER and LanguageXpert. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:42, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify (which I have already to Doug) I was referring to the fact that the block was for 3RR not sockpuppetry and that Doug was involved in that 'edit war'. No issue with the block pending outcome of the SPI, which I'm looking into. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 14:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

As I recall, my thought processes were "this is an edit-warring sock, pending further action I'll give him a 24 hour block". I could have taken him to ANEW and maybe should have. I see he hasn't appealed the block or edited since it expired. Dougweller (talk) 14:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Callanecc Thanks. It can be tough because his ISP offers large scale of dynamic IPs. Tiptoety confirmed it. Maybe he's using internet of a institute that is having multiple ISPs. Suppose if he has edited with a IP just now, it will show that he's residing somewhere in Uttar Pradesh and other IP would be from Jammu and Kashmir.

It is better to just site ban him, he is more than qualified for a site ban.

He never made even a single useful edit.

He always follow my edits after creating a new sock, despite he has no knowledge about the subject.

He has abused socks for more than 3 years now. (main account is from 2009)

He edit wikipedia only for 2 purposes. 1, for hunting my edits. 2, for raising propaganda of Dalit Buddhist movement.

He tries hard to game system, look at his unblock appeals:- [443]-[444] - [445] - 2014

He is very offensive, despite the warnings against inflammatory speech on his sock accounts, there was a day when many of the pages(where I contributed) required deletion of revisions, as he was abusing IPs and using inflammatory language [446] - [447] - [448] - [449] - [450]

Other violations include the breach of copyrights,[451] canvassing[452] and so on.

I bet that many of the banned wikipedians were a lot better than this user. He is still troublesome. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

IP 68.39.152.45 keeps removing valid sources and will not attempt discussion

Recently an anonymous editor (68.39.152.45 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) deleted several bands from the Crossover thrash (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article. Some of those were legitimate, but several others are generally considered to be a part of the genre and I later provided sources to back that up. However, the user seems to have a problem with the sources, even though they are generally considered reliable as per Wikipedia's standards. I attempted to discuss it on the talk page and on his own page, but the editor still insisted that he was right. I left the bands he had a problem with off for a while.

I later asked around if my sources were considered reliable enough and started a discussion on I had asked for help on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Metal, and it seemed that my sources were alright, so I decided to re-add the bands to the list. MrMoustacheMM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) then suggested that sources be provided on the crossover page itself, and I proceeded to do that for the bands that the IP wanted to stay off the list, with the intention of eventually providing all hte bands on the list in the future, however the IP again started deleting the bands. MrMoustacheMM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) then suggested that all the bands should be discussed on the talk page on the article before they're added to the article. I agreed to that and moved all the bands to the talk page, including the ones the IP had a problem with. The user then went on and deleted the bands on the talk page as seen here here and here, despite being asked to discuss whether they should or shouldn't be there first. He also seems to ignore sources and cites things such as the sidebar on AMG, which isn't considered reliable, unlike the articles. He keeps mentioning that "he was there" which is why he should be trusted, uses his own "knowledge" to decide what is and what isn't crossover based on his own arbitrary rules and accuses me of trying to hog the page, pushing my POV for finding sources, and working for the band and record labels. He also removed my sources for here and here, citing the AMG sidebar and a book that probably doesn't claim what he says it claims, while not realizing that a source saying that a band belongs to a certain genre, doesn't negate the fact that it can also belong to another one SonOfPlisskin (talk) 02:39, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

my page is here 68.39.152.45 (talk) 08:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC) this is crossover thrash . everything is up for review as well as the talk page . two days of this user coming to the talk page but claims "will not attempt discussion" . Have nothing more to say . anything to get this person to stop typing to me . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 08:12, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

also, "some of the edits were legitimate" All bands removed from the list based on their wiki articles (and sound) all were legitimate. after this person became upset at that he/she made personal attacks and went to the articles he/she wanted added and Changed the Genre of the pages to meet re-add them to meet his/her POV . never seen anyone do this in a Decade of being here . IP changed so the history of this IP isn't showing and representing all contributions to Articles after moving . This person is only concerned with their POV . Removing bands where their articles claim they are punk rock or thrashcore or speed metal makes the Crossover Thrash page more accurate . For example this person went and changed "speed core" to "crossover thrash" on an articles just to re-added bands she/he wanted there . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 09:51, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

One more this person has been on wiki for five Months all they have done is argue with people . take a look at their talk page I though I was the only one . the whole page is a prime example of this persons general bad attitude towards others . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 09:57, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

First off, I've been editing this site since 2005. I've just changed by username. You're not the only one who can do that. Second, the arguments I had on my talk page were with another unreasonable genre warrior, and it's completely irrelevant to this. I could bring up all of your past history as well, since I've seen some of your past edits, but I chose not to. Third, you don't get to decide what should or shouldn't count based on your own opinion if there are sources supporting them, especially things like AMG articles written by a well known writer there, and replace them with genres from the sidebar. The sources page clearly states "Allmusic's genre sidebar should generally be avoided if better sources are available. Previous discussions at WP:ALBUMS and RSN have evinced that they can be incongruous with the reviewer's prose, which should take precedent over the sidebar (e.g. Allmusic's sidebar classifies Rhythm Killers as "reggae", while the reviewer observes "no reggae in sight").I added sources because you said there were no sources".

Also, there's absolutely nothing wrong with looking for sources. I've seen those bands referred to as crossover on various sites, and so I went ahead and found reliable ones. It's funny that you said "based on their wiki articles", when two of those pages already listed crossover thrash. I just added sources for it. And lastly, you can't edit my comment on the talk page. I added the bands there to discuss what should or shouldn't be on the page, but you keep deleting them without any, hence "not interested in discussion". If you have a problem with any band there, then discuss it. You can't magically make things you don't like disappear. You've been insulting and condescending towards me from the beginning, so don't bring "personal attacks" into it. I tried to talk to you about the bands you removed but you started up by saying that you're right, because you say so and that you wanted the list to be"pure" (whatever that means). At most I'd made a light-hearted comment about your poor typing skills, but that's only after you'd already proved yourself to be unwilling to reason. Any later "attacks" were sarcastic ones based on you ridiculous claims about me working for the label nad pushing your own point of view. You can't blame me for not thinking you were editing in "good faith". And don't forget, it's YOU who made the big changes to the crossover page. When an IP user makes mass deletions like you did, people are going to take notice. And I never changed speedcore to crossover. Speedcore isn't even a metal genre. Ludichrist was listed as speed metal (though it might have been taken from AMG, speed metal is used interchangeably with thrash here, as you can see in the more detailed AMG review of their first album) and hardcore. Thrash metal + hardcore = crossover. Ludichrist was well known as a crossover band, and I found other sources to back it up. And half the bands you left on the list didn't have sources saying they're crossover, but you only seem to have a problem with those particular bands. Using your ears counts as original research. If you weren't so delete-happy, I might have been more patient here. I'd like to add that the user has edited my comment on the talk page to his own liking for the third time here SonOfPlisskin (talk) 11:46, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You Argue With EVERYONE you deal with . You are 5 months old beginner, you need to learn how things work . Everything on your talk page is "sarcasm" "digs" no sense, you lie , you change pages to meet your own point of view . Im not reading your book . Show what your old page was if you aren't new . I can show my old address IPs if I get asked by an administrator . Seriously . Look at your talk page . plus you made some serious Obvious mistakes in some of your rush to change genres to try and get speed metal bands on a crossover list . That will be secret until your time comes . You lie Constantly . Im done with your nonsense and I wouldn't doubt if you are a sock puppet, it wouldn't surprise me . There is Not One Person on your talk page that you dealt with , with a Shred of dignity , class or tact . YOU WENT AND CHANGES PAGES WHEN YOU SAW WHAT THEY HAD ON THIER WIKIS IN SOME CASES, FOR YEARS . THE BANDS DONT EVEN HAVE THOSE GENRES ON THIER OWN FACEBOOK PAGES . Someone else will deal with you . Im not reading anymore of your Nonsense . For someone you said was "unwilling" I am tired of your personality Disorder style "working" with others style . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 15:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I've argued with one other person, who was a recurring problematic user who got two accounts blocked and is currently under a sockpuppet investigation. I'll bring up my own accounts if an admin asks as well, but that's not going to happen, because it's completely irrelevant to this. Just adding another diff here. Stop editing my posts on the talk page. You claim to be "experienced" but you don't know the basic rules. And you still don't understand that there's nothing wrong with adding sources to pages. Pages don't remain as they are forever. Plus I only added crossover to two bands. Three of them already had it listed and I just added sources for them. Again, you don't seem to have a problem with other bands that have no sources or flimsy ones. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 17:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Did it EVER occur to you to , Stop Arguing, and wait for someone to mediate . Someone has to read this and quite frankly it comes across as immature nonsense . Is one of the bands going to break up if You don't put them on a list they don't belong . What the "urgency" . Its not a problem if it stays as it IS until a mediator full examines things . Also another editor cleaned up a little at crossover Thrash, did you see anyone have a Problem with my edits and replacing your SECTION BLANKING. No , they didn't . Give it a Rest . Even if Three days goes by , people are Busy , wait for an editor . None of your fave bands are going to break up if you don't get them in a list . Like I said at their own Facebook pages those bands don't even classify themselves as crossover thrash . Not as a reference but how out of tune your angle is . Try this word, "Patience" .68.39.152.45 (talk) 17:34, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

The problem is you editing my post that is on topic and relevant. I didn't add the bands back to the main page. I added them to the talk page for discussion. A post that I was asked to make. Just because you edit pages that most people don't care about, it doesn't mean that your edits are "good". I have no patience for disruptive editors. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 17:37, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You just go on and on and on and on and on and on . I GET WHAT YOU ARE TYPING . THREE DAYS AGO . Is there any need to explain . If you were working TOGETHER this would have never happened and like I said I moved three times , in 13-15 years Of Editing your the only editor who seems to possess an incessant OCD for Your POV. 68.39.152.45 (talk) 17:47, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia wasn't even around 15 years ago. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 18:03, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You just go on and on and on and on and on and on . incessant OCD 68.39.152.45 (talk) 18:27, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

68*, accusing another editor of having OCD is a personal attack. If it happens again, it doesn't matter what the merits or not of the rest of this case is, you will be blocked for making personal attacks. So don't. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Bringing this back from the archive. The user continues to involve himself with my edits on other pages, deleting sources, and changing articles because he personally disagrees with them. He attempted to back off a little bit for a while after he was given a warning (even deleting accusations about my supposed OCD from other talk pages), but he's gone back to it. He removed "crossover" from all of these pages, claiming to be fixing grammar: 1, 2, and 3. Even if the thing about the forward slash is true, notice that he only removed crossover in all three cases, even if it would make more sense to leave it as the only genre in the opening line (particularly with Ludichrist), and made no attempt to make any mention of it elsewhere in the article. He also keeps bringing up that I've only been editing for 5 months, implying that my contributions mean nothing, like it even matters in this case, even though I've been doing so since 05/06, just not under this particular account. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 14:43, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

This user/person seems to think correcting things on a page is "following" It is not . You added a "forward' slash second genre to the page(s) which was "crossover punk" . I removed the "forward slash" and the second genre which should be included in the side box section . There isn't one band (professional or otherwise) who has "is an American Crust punk/crossover thrash band" . Its unprofessional and not how an Encyclopedic Article is written. "Even if the forward slash "thing" is true" . WHAT ? have you ever READ Articles on wiki ? If you don't know (at minimum) some basic stuff why are you editing ? How long you've been editing Does, in Fact, matter . You either should Know better or not based on your experience . Why continue to type this childish nonsense here instead of learning how to write an Article Better, Unreal . Either way the Improvement or correction of a genre has nothing to do with "you" , Maybe thats part of your issues . You are the one that added 'crossover' to meet your own POV anyhow . Its all in the pages (edit) History. have a Nice day . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 17:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't even pay attention to your edits. And keep orphaning sources/leaving sources saying something else. There are plenty of pages that use the same format. Changed it now anyway. Let's see how you try to game the system this time. There's nothing wrong with adding the sources I added. How many times must I repeat that? There are even tips on the Wiki to find reliable sources. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 18:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Your still typing to me . Interesting . cool story "bro/sis" . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 18:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• I've blocked 2 days for edit warring. De728631 (talk) 18:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Can I revert his edit without violating 3RR? SonOfPlisskin (talk) 19:04, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You're already pretty much involved in reverting the IP so you should better leave that to someone else. De728631 (talk) 19:48, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

AdamDeanHall

AdamDeanHall (talk · contribs · count) has been showing some aggressive ownership behaviours and overreactions lately, particularly surrounding the Hub Network and Discovery Kids (United States) articles.

• In regards to remarks surrounding Hasbro having been in negotiations with Time Warner due to the re-launch of The Hub as Discovery Family, the article previously also stated, factually, that, Time Warner was the owner of Cartoon Network. However, his editing summaries that removed the acknowledgement (which, themselves, I have no problem with) contained statements such as "No changes allowed", "Not another word about Cartoon Network. Understood?", and "I'm sure all of us will remember that rule the next time we edit this page."
• After fussing with IP editors prematurely listing the date of the re-launch under the "Launched:" field in the infobox, he had the page fully protected, when semi-protection would have been sufficient. Even worse, when I requested unprotection, he outright removed my request with the edit summary "Your request for unprotection of the Hub Network page is denied." I do not believe users have the authority to do this; as such, he is attempting to impersonate an admin.
• After actually having accepted the merger for a period, he reverted my bold merge of the Discovery Kids article into Hub Network. After I asked about discussing it per WP:BRD, he removed the message with the edit summary "There will be no discussion on the Discovery Kids page", implying a refusal to participate in discussion, and a further assertion of ownership.

He also got into a slight edit war on Vortexx, as IP editors asserted that we could not declare it to be "over" until the block actually finished airing for the last time. Personally, I believe this is legitimate IP vandalism, given why they even bothered to fuss over it is beyond me. He also, in another example of overreacting, got the page fully protected, when it really should have, again, been semi-protected.

tl;dr Could an admin please examine AdamDeanHall's recent actions? ViperSnake151  Talk  16:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

In my experience, this is an editor with a long history of taking a "my way or the highway" approach to editing, and frequently lays down the law in his edit summaries. That he only has one block for edit warring is remarkable, given his pattern of editing. A number of editors have warned him about this over time (it's all on his talk page), and he will amend his behavior briefly, but he remains unresponsive in the long term. His ownership approach to a range of television articles, including the season list articles, is clear from the examples noted above. An admin needs to take him in hand or it's time to start blocking him. --Drmargi (talk) 16:37, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Was there any consensus to make Discovery Kids a redirect? Noteswork (talk) 17:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It was more of a bold move. Especially given that, per the precedent of other pages for networks that have gone through re-branding (even some owned by the same company, i.e. Destination America, Velocity) have treated their re-brandings as part of the network's continuity, and not declaring it an entirely new page. Though there have been exceptions for major re-launches that have so much content that they could not conceivably be covered on the same page (i.e. Fox Sports 1, Al Jazeera America). ViperSnake151  Talk  18:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I have carefully read your explanation on the talk page, you were honest with your view about converting the article into redirect. User:AdamDeanHall don't want to join the conversation, which is why it seemed relevant to bring this issue to ANI. Noteswork (talk) 18:25, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

That isn't vandalism; it is a content dispute. --Guerillero | My Talk 17:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Hey, everyone. I just want to let you know that I recently re-added the redirect to the Hub Network page to the Discovery Kids (United States) page, now that I have seen the error of my ways, and...I sincerely hope there won't be any more problems. Next time, I'll have a discussion with you before I make any decisions about this whole affair. Thank you. AdamDeanHall (talk) 21:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

There won't be anymore problems when you stop viewing these articles as being part of your own person kingdom. Do you have anything to say about removing another users good faith request to have page protection removed?--Adam in MO Talk 03:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Possible TBAN for this editor

For about the third time, Zambelo had added in names into this template. He's been reverted by myself, FreeRangeFrog and Tgeairn. Each time, the names have had no references, and each time he's been notified on his talk page. Each time he insists that because there's an article about (Insert the name of such-and-such organization that the named people are associated with) that the names are referenced and therefore ok to add in per WP:BLP. Since at least three people have advised him on three different occasions, I get the impression that he's not hearing it, therefore, at this time, I would ask for a TBAN, broadly construed on anything that touches NRM's. As always, let consensus be the deciding factor. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 16:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Warned of what exactly? You had your opinion on the matter, and I listened, removing all the redlinks, which were the issue at the time. You requested outside comment, and didn't receive any. I'm not sure why this would require any sort of ban, you appear to be overreaching. I am a constructive editor, unlike some, like Tgeairn, who have sought to delete multiple (at least 10) articles in the previous week without any sort of attempt at finding sources, or improving the articles in question. I request outside commentary on this, you, Tgeairn, and FreeRangeFrog are too close to this issue, and are not even attempting to discuss it. As far as I am concerned, I have been nothing but constructive on WIkipedia. If you can point out where exactly it says why I cannot add names to a template, and can get outside consensus, then fine. Until then, perhaps you need to lay off the attacks. Zambelo; talk 20:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Well, a topic ban is a bit drastic, maybe, but there are problems here, besides the accusation that Tgeairn isn't constructive because they nominated some articles for deletion. I note that this template in Zambelo's version looks more like a directory than a navigation template, and reinserting William V. Chambers, deleted a few days ago after AfD, is just not useful. In this edit, for instance, the claim is made that the subject's own website is a reliable secondary source, and in general I see a lack of understanding of what this encyclopedia is and how it should work. The funny thing is that KoshVorlon typically seems a bit hot-headed in this forum, but they make a decent case for disruption at least in this template, whereas Zambelo has nothing to offer to bolster their case but an attempt to shift the blame (it's all FreeRangeFrog's fault?). BTW, that template contains a lot of links to really iffy articles; note also that there is still an ArbCom request up and running to look into a related matter. Drmies (talk) 20:54, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

William V. Chambers was re-inserted as part of a revert of multiple deletions. And I understand what secondary sources are, thank you very much: republic.it is a secondary source - JSYK. Zambelo; talk 01:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Alright, let's back up a bit here and not make this a humongous deal. First, I disagree that this is problematic enough to merit a topic ban or even a block, but Zambelo has to understand that policies apply to the articles, templates and content he improves and creates. The backstory is that back in July I made a few changes to Rick Ross (consultant) in response to an OTRS request. When I fixed the entry in the template, I noticed there were a very large number of non-linked names in there, so I removed them. I was reverted by Zambelo, I quoted WP:V and WP:BLPCAT when reverting him again. I didn't want to get into a revert war so I asked for some input at WP:BLPN. At that point I received no response, but I did notice KoshVorlon removed the names again. KoshVorlon subsequently opened another thread at BLPN where Elaqueate seemed to argue that the inclusion of the names was OK but never took action either way or continued the discussion. Later I made the point of examining some other templates and while I did find a few that have unsourced names or the occasional redlink, I didn't see one that had so many of them.

Which brings us to this point. I maintain my opinion that the inclusion of a large number of unsourced names in a template is against WP:BLPCAT. Templates are navigational aides, not loopholes for potentially contentious categorization of living people. I am not suggesting that was Zambelo's intention, but nonetheless that's what it looks like in the end. The argument that "well the names are sourced in the articles" is weak at best, because template links should be self-fullfilling and self-explanatory - they should be linking to the subject or topic being mentioned in the template. These names serve no navigational purpose and given the topical area, they can potentially be problematic, if not defamatory.

Unfortunately sometimes there's a lack of participation (and therefore lack of real consensus) at BLPN, so it's unfortunate we've landed here, although I can't say I disagree with KoshVorlon's call for attention. I hope we can put this behind us, so I'd like to ask Zambelo to justify the inclusion of these names in the template, or to reconsider his/her position on the matter and agree to their removal. If Zambelo needs a list of potential article subjects he wants to create in the future, I'm sure a list in his computer should be more than enough. This is not what templates are for. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 00:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I understand that there may be policies governing this issue, however I have yet to be shown which ones, and the editors removing the content have been rather vague on this subject. I have removed the redlinks, as previously discussed - however I don't see the issue with adding names of members of the groups they belong to in the template - a group is comprised of individuals - this is what makes it a group. It isn't a categorisation issue, it's a navigational one: it aids in navigating amongst the various anti-cult groups, which again, are comprised by individuals who sometimes sit on multiple boards… it allows to view the anti-cult movement, and how it is comprised, as well as navigating to the various parts of it. It's an elegant solution to a very entangled movement.

I'm open to ideas on how to explore and categorise the anti-cult movement. It's a niche subject, and I seem to be one of the only editors interested in pursuing this. It's easy to destroy content (and many articles relating to the anti-cult movement were deleted over the past week) but if you look at what I am attempting to do here, create a full picture of the secular and religious anti-cult movement, then you can appreciate why I am a little defensive when it comes to outside editors simply deleting content that I, and others, have spent many hours creating with vague allusions to some policy that may or may not apply. I'm open to suggestions, as I said, and I have listened to some of the issues raised by editors (removal of redlinks, for instance).

My position, stated briefly, is this: Individuals, part of an anti-cult group (referenced) are part of the anti-cult movement. This is a perfectly reasonable assumption, and the fact that some editors feel that there is a need to ban me for it, without suggesting an alternative or even providing a proper argument as to why my position is wrong is simply an attempt at bullying, perhaps because my position on the matter is in fact in line with policy. I invite editors to discuss the issue, for once, instead of rushing in to delete content - this shows a distinct lack of respect for other editors work. Zambelo; talk 01:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"Warned of what ?" Well, you were warned that your edits were in violation of BLP as there was no reference to back up your claim. Free Range Frog specifically advised you the people's name you were trying to add in failed verifiability and as such could not be added. In fact, he said it very well here:

A person is notable in Wikipedia when there is an article about them in Wikipedia. I have no problem with you adding those names to the organizations, etc. as long as their participation and role is sourced. But I can't put a on a template used in multiple articles, nor is it realistic to have so many redlinks in one either. Again, basic verifiability. You can't circumvent Wikipedia policy simply because the content is in a template as opposed to an article. The core policies like V and BLP apply everywhere, to all content

I advised you of the same thing, and in fact added in

If you can supply reliable references that say they're opposed to NRM's, then I can't very well argue BLP, right ?

. You have chosen to ignore both of us, FreeRangeFrog and I, and as for me, well, I don't care, as I'm not an admin, but FreeRangeFrog is an admin. Further you were also told by John who is also an administrator, not to make that same kind of edit. So yes, you've been advised of what you were doing and how to correct it. The balls in your court. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 00:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

They belong to anti-cult groups. (See above) the references appear in the anti-cult group articles. I've already brought this up, and you've chosen to disregard it. The fact that these editors are also admins bears no consequence on how this matter should be addressed. Zambelo; talk 01:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Two edits, just now, convince me that Zambelo doesn't really know how any of this works. In this edit they restore directory-style information and a wholly undue section full of criticism of this anti-cult organization (a section written in barely understandable English, I might add). In this edit they restore resume-style information to a BLP, reporting that the subject gave a speech, and provided evidence for a US senate hearing, sourced to the subject's speech itself. So it seems clear to me that this editor indeed does not understand how editing works here, what reliable sourcing is, what is and isn't OK in BLPs. Drmies (talk) 01:36, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

How about you improve the english? But you won't. Your edits are entirely destructive. Also, have you ever heard of a talk page? I revert some of your more destructive edits, because more often than not, they contain salvageable material. Zambelo; talk 11:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• The editor is also creating a number of articles that don't meet the notability criteria to add to that list, and we need to mop after him [453]. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:55, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• No you don't need to "mop up after me" - you should be proactively looking for references, instead of deleting new articles/stubs. Your edits are destructive and disruptive. Zambelo; talk 11:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Zambelo I don't get any kicks out of proposing T-Bans for anyone. I'm currently under one right now - however, you've been cautioned three times and it's been explained to you why you can't add the names in you're trying to add in, so you don't appear to be listening, and as I said, I'm not a sysop, so I don't really care that you're not listening to me, but you're doing this to a sysop as well (also your last post on the BLP board ) wasn't such a hot idea, why not strike it out, as I certainly have no vendetta against you or any anti-cult group. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 10:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no reason to ban me - but you don't appear to be listening either - I've given my argument as to why the names should stay - I think I have a good reason, and yet you believe so much in your opinion about what shouldn't go into the template that you are proposing to take a shortcut and just tell me what to do and then ban me, instead of discussing the issue. Nowhere have I seen written that unlinked names aren't allowed on navigational templates. That they don't belong is your opinion. If you think there is an issue, perhaps a RFC from outside commentators would be more productive than jumping the gun and banning one of the only editors constructively working on New Religious movement articles. The sysop in question is invited to look at both sides of the issue. I won't be making any further changes to the template for now, but I'll probably open up a RFC in future. Zambelo; talk 11:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

User:Haveagoodwanktoday

Indeffed by John. De728631 (talk) 18:38, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Looks like a vandalism-only account, with the additon of a username that I believe fails the username policy. I've tagged their talkpage for the latter, but would like a second opinion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Nevermind, John has blocked them before I could add the ani-notice tag on their talkpage! Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:37, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A call for Darkness Shines to be indefinitely blocked from Wikipedia.

User:Darkness Shines, who was blocked in May of this year under WP:ARBIPA#Discretionary sanctions for repeated personal attacks, incivility and edit warring (see the enforcement thread here [454]), has just chosen to not only once more resort to a personal attack in an edit summary for a sensitive article under WP:ARBPIA restrictions ("Do me youi little shite ." [455]), but has blatantly violated the 1 revert per 24 hours restrictions in place for the article in doing so. As I am sure most of those who look at this page with any frequency will be aware, Darkness Shines' behaviour is a regular topic of discussion here, and his block log [456] indicates the frequency with which he has been sanctioned for his refusal to comply with policy. Since it seems self-evident at this point that DS is incapable of complying with Wikipedia policies in regard to sensitive articles, and is making no effort whatsoever to reform his behaviour, I have to suggest that it is time for the community to consider an indefinite block. Enough is enough. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:46, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment User:Darkness Shines clearly should not use language such as "shit" in edit summaries and should respect 1RR. Then again, AndyTheGrump should not remove sourced content before a discussion a talk page has come to that conclusion (this said without taking a stance for either side). Since unblocked in June, User:Darkness Shines has more than 1000 edits and seems to be engaging constructively, so I cannot agree with "incapable of complying with Wikipedia policies". I do not condone the action in this sensitive article (nor do I condone that of the OP) but a call for an indefinite block seems excessive looking at larger picture.Jeppiz (talk) 20:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the 1RR rule under WP:ARBIPA#Discretionary sanctions is somehow inapplicable to contributors with a sufficiently large edit count? As for the 'bigger picture', I have to suggest that it provides nothing but further evidence of DS's belligerent behaviour, and of his refusal to comply with policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

You're deliberately misinterpreting my comment, which is rather typical of a WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality. I did not defend the 1RR violation. On the contrary. But I did say I don't find it sufficient to warrant the indefinite block for which you're calling. If this had been the first action of previously blocked editor, then it would be different. Now the editor has more than 1000 edits, so while an admin can chose to take action over the 1RR, I do not think it should be anything near an indefinite block. Both DS and the OP have very long block logs, and should perhaps consider limiting their interaction. After an (admittedly quick) look, I cannot see one being better or worse than the other.Jeppiz (talk) 21:14, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I rarely edit in the area covered by WP:ARBIPA, and have had little recent interaction with DS - though why that would be relevant in this discussion I fail to see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - That comment does seem rather nasty, but we'd have to weigh whether this editor is considered a "valued content creator", which as we know from recent events can balance out bad behavior. Tarc (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Tarc, you'd have someone blocked indefinitely for a bad word in an edit summary? Drmies (talk) 21:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Only when it was funny... Begoon ^talk 21:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I echo the sentiments of Jeppiz; whilst his behaviour clearly leaves something to be desired, I can understand his frustration at editors removing relevant sourced material from the article. Number 57 21:03, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Really Andy? How many times have we had enough is enough from you? Grow up for fuvks sake, I am going back to the pub, and it is no wonder why I spend more time there now than editing. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It needs to be noted that DS has made no apology for his clear and unambiguous violation of policy - further proof, I have to suggest, that he has no intention of complying with it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:13, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It should also be noted that as recently as August 23, Darkness Shines posted a notice informing another contributor of the WP:ARBPIA 1RR sanctions on their talk page, in relation to the same article he has just violated the sanctions on. [457] I can interpret this in no other way than as evidence that he refuses to comply with policies he wishes to enforce on others. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - This should really be a wakeup call on how editors are fed up with this user's behavior. I remember my first interaction with Darkness awhile back and he was just as nasty towards people who he has not come in contact with. Look Darkness I don't expect you to like everyone here but please enough of the nastiness as it just puts a sour mood in the editing environment here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• Comment What Jeppiz said really, with the addition of, yeah, Andy, but is this really what you want this place to become? Arguing about who stuck which notice on whose page when and why, or who said a rude word? I've seen the awesome stuff you do, and I doubt that's what you really want. Begoon ^talk 21:58, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. This is not a reasonable response to someone saying a bad word in an edit summary.-- Toddy1 (talk) 22:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It wouldn't be, if that was all there was to it. Now read my original post, where I indicated that DS had violated (yet again) sanctions regarding WP:ARBPIA which he apparently only sees applicable to other people. This is entirely consistent with his long-term behaviour. He is incapable of complying with policy, and needs to be dealt with accordingly. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Probably best to try your hand at WP:AE since it is an ARBPIA transgression, you're hitting 2 roadblocks here; friends from the I-P topic area, and the "it wasn't that bad" ANI'ers. Tarc (talk) 22:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

It is true that DS broke the one revert per 24 hours restriction on the article.11:36,19:15 Perhaps he/she should have a 24 hour block for that.

But the main thrust of AndyTheGrump's complaint was that DS said a bad word in an edit summary. I can understand why AndyTheGrump felt annoyed that DS had reverted AndyTheGrump's 14:59 edit. Though in DS's position I would have been annoyed by AndyTheGrump's edit summary which bizarrely accused DS of coatracking. There are faults on both sides here.-- Toddy1 (talk) 22:52, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

No - the main thrust of my complaint is that DS violated ARBPIA sanctions yet again, and made a personal attack while doing so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:38, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Just chiming in; I don't believe calling someone "a little shit" can be considered a consistently blockable offense anymore, and it is certainly not grounds for an indef.--WaltCip (talk) 23:26, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• You should be looking at the edit summaries long term. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:43, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• That makes it a matter for RfC/U, not ANI. Drmies (talk) 19:14, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - I think DarknessShines is actually drunk (he's made mention of this both here and on Drmies page, in fact on Drmies page he says he's "shit faced ", so I'd brush it off as editing when intoxicated (yes I know, someone's used it as an attack, I'm not  ! ) KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 00:08, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

If DS is editing while drunk (yet again) so what? There is nothing in WP:ARBPIA that says being intoxicated is a legitimate reason to violate 1RR is there? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:43, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Yeah sure letting editors edit Wikipedia while shit faced that sets a great example for editors on Wikipedia doesn't it? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Though I am somewhat bemused by the specific OP being the one to condemn use of "shit" considering the OP's history if intemperate language. No sufficient reason here to exile anyone. Collect (talk) 00:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, here's the deal - if it is the opinion of this noticeboard that WP:ARBPIA sanctions are inapplicable to established contributors, I am going to have to assume that it applies to me too. Why the hell shouldn't I? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)'

Let me explain using an analogy: if Andy the policeman catches DS driving at 40 mph in a 30 mph limit, asking for indefinite driving ban for DS seems a bit extreme. This does not mean that it is OK for DS to drive at 40 mph in a 30 mph limit.

If it goes to court, it would help if the prosecution confined itself to their main complaint.-- Toddy1 (talk) 08:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

It is unfortunately that DS has gone astray, so soon after asking for a relaxation of a topic ban, where drunken outbursts were one of the items discussed. There does appear to be a pattern here, and some sanction may be needed, but I think a community ban is excessive. Gaijin42 (talk) 00:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The OP is asking for a block not a ban. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

An indefinite block imposed by the community (as opposed to an individual admin) is effectively a community ban. (Since an individual admin likely could not overturn the community decision) Per WP:BLOCKBANDIFF "In the event an indefinitely blocked editor has continued to be disruptive and no administrator is willing to unblock, they are considered de facto banned." Gaijin42 (talk) 03:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• The sight of Andythegrump becoming exercised about incivility by another editor is just too funny. On the other hand, DarknessShines reverted not just twice but three times on that flotilla article. The right place to moan about it is 3RRN (or perhaps AE). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

To clarify, one of the three was a self-revert of the 2nd one. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Nomo, the complaint of "belligerent behaviour" etc. is hilarious, given who's doing the complaining. Writegeist (talk) 07:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose but there does seem to be a bit of a pattern to those edits that provoke complaints as intemperate, personal attacks or breaches of sanctions. A daily wikibreak from (say) 8pm to 6am, local time, just might help. NebY (talk) 08:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose As the person whose edit was initially reverted, by DS, I oppose this. Obviously the comment 'Do me you little shite' was inappropriate. But that is not a reason for indef. banning. DS should not have edit-warred and instead, opened an RfC for this, as I have suggested on the talk page. Re, Jeppiz's point AndyTheGrump was merely restoring to the status quo (the content was not present in the article before), so he did nothing wrong. I agree that WP:AE is a better place for this. In my opinion, 1RR can be handled by simply leaving a message to DS on the talk page, and DS has now self-reverted. I don't really care about foul-mouthedness, but that is for OP to judge, since it was directed at him. Kingsindian ♝♚ 09:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I mean come on.....this rises to a level of a warning maybe even a "stern" warning but I don't think a block is called for here.--Mark Miller (talk) 10:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

User:HarpBasedBand

HarpBasedBand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Repeated disruptive editing despite multiple level-4 warnings about behavior. Continues to add blank tables to articles (1, 2).

Recent incident closed with no comments from administrators. AldezD (talk) 23:35, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Jordanian occupation of the West Bank

Can an admin fix the page history at the above page? Recently, at Talk:Jordanian occupation of the West Bank, User: Huldra proposed moving the longstanding article to Jordanian rule of the West Bank. The proposal was supported by nobody else and opposed by myself. There was no request at WP:RM. Nevertheless, for some reason, Huldra decided to move the page anyway. An IP decided to rectify Huldra's move with redirects, thereby erasing the page history. So now, it's at the correct page but without its edit history. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I figured out the location of the missing page history which I attempted to restore and undo the move but with the rights I have that's impossible. the article Jordanian rule of the West Bank has the history which became a redirect thus making the edit history vanish for the actual article. The Jordanian occupation of the West Bank will have to be deleted and the Jordanian rule of the West Bank will have to be redirected to the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank article. --Acetotyce (talk) 01:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Done--deleting the target was necessary. Thanks for trying though. Brewcrewer, please check to see if I got it right. What an odd move request--in the middle of a 2004 discussion. Anyway, I move-protected the right one, and protected the wrong one; if any of this ever needs to be moved around, someone will have to ask an admin. Drmies (talk) 01:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, looks good. You may want to protect the talk page as well.

What's more interesting is that Huldra created a new section header in middle of the conversation naming the new section "move suggested." Huldra placed the section header right above another editor's 2010 comment to make it seem like the other editor was making this proposal.[458]. Believe it or not, I've seen crazier stuff in WP:ARBPIA.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Several non-consensus moves performed by In ictu oculi

I am referring to In ictu oculi (talk · contribs) (IIO), who in the recent minutes has been changing the disambiguatior "(mixtape)" to "(album)"[459], with no single consensus to perform such moves. Apparently as I opened a RM at Reverie (Tinashe album) to move it to Reverie (Tinashe mixtape), IIO has decided to move several mixtapes to his preference disambiguator despite this disambiguator has been used for several years. Can someone tell him to stop, because he hardly listens to me and goes against everything I do. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 03:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• You could have contacted me, you could have reverted, you could have notified on my Talk page. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:22, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I now have a notification on my Talk page. Thank you. There are a number of issues here which are best solved by discussion related to each article. I have used my judgment based on what is actually written in the article. And as it happens I do not object to "mixtape" being used instead of album if that is what sources support, despite that "mixtapes" are usually albums. For example I moved X Files to X Files (Chris Brown mixtape), because in that case the article supports "mixtape" and there is a X (Chris Brown album) coming up. But X Files generally to most readers wouldn't suggest a mixtape by Chris Brown, they might, hyphen or not, think of a TV series, for example. As for other albums/mixtapes, I've already submitted questions which aren't clear to the RM process, see Talk:Black Flag (album), you're welcome to participate. Is there a problem here? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

TbHotch, I've self-reverted the 3 albums which seemed clear per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) back to (mixtape) - (there seems to be little point in self-reverting the blank category holder redirects where no article even exists). However that puts them back contrary to WP:SONGDAB which indicates Ashes to Ashes (David Shankle Group album) Ashes to Ashes (Chelsea Grin album) so Ashes to Ashes (Rick Ross album) should not be at Ashes to Ashes (mixtape). You've put me in the situation of making a move contrary to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music). Do you want me to submit these 3 albums as RMs, perhaps a multiple RM, or perhaps wait for the discussion on the other 3 RMs to finish? In ictu oculi (talk) 03:40, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Although X Files generally refers to The X-Files I don't see how X Files (Chris Brown mixtape) is not distinguished from X (Chris Brown album) more than X Files (mixtape) and X (Chris Brown album), where {{distinguish}} exists. In that logic even X Files (Chris Brown mixtape) and X (Chris Brown album) need the {{distinguish}} template. Now what is relevant here is that you are boldly moving several pages with no RMs, and even I opened yesterday one RM which demostrate these moves can be contentious for a bold move. The problem with all the RMs you opened recently where you are trying to remove "mixtape" with "album", like Talk:Black Flag (album), Talk:California Republic (album) or, Talk:Back from the Dead (mixtape) is exactly what I told you in two of those RMs. This "selectively" mixtape-to-album transformation requires consensus by WP:NCM and not through WP:RM, because there are several "mixtape" pages now, the "(mixtape)" disambiguator still redirecting to an article (example, Awaken (mixtape)), and it also can affect other pages like those with "(video)" and "(EP)" (see this loophole), or other DABs like "(telenovela)", "(television film)", etc. So now that I have your attention, as generally you are ignoring me, if you want to do such transformations, IMO, it is required a community consensus and not on 1-4 people judgment. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 04:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay but I am not psychic, requested moves at Talk:California Republic (album) 01:55, 29 September 2014, Talk:Black Flag (album) 03:00, Talk:Back from the Dead (mixtape) 01:58, were already open and available for you to comment prior to 03:17 above. I think the issue here is that we usually disambiguate by Song/EP/Album, but a mixtape can be either an EP or Album, so for the purposes of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music) if we are calling something an album in article body, sources and categories, then we are calling it an album, and if it is, for example, 97:30 and clearly not an "EP" or a "single" then that also confirms Category:Mixtape albums is in fact a subcategory of album for the purposes of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music). However I've reverted the ones I thought too obvious to justify an RM, it probably now would be better to wait and see input from a broader selection of editors on the opened RMs. There doesn't appear to be anything else to do. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I see IIO's name at WP:RM a lot. He does plenty of good work in raising move requests for titles that could be contested. I'm assuming these moves were done in good faith per WP:BOLD. Maybe discuss the disambig of "mixtape" vs "album" at WT:ALBUM for a consensus, if needed. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 06:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Viriditas referring to other editors as indistinguishable from al-Qaeda

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Viriditas (talk) referred to other editors as "intellectual terrorists" and indistinguishable from "al-Qaeda and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant."Special:Diff/627491415 I consider this to be an incredibly egregious personal attack in violation of WP:PA. As that says in WP:NPA#WHATIS an example it gives is "Comparing editors to Nazis, dictators, or other infamous persons." "al-Qaeda and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" are similarly infamous persons. I post it to this board because I consider it so egregious. --Obsidi (talk) 03:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern, but I suggest you work on your reading comprehension skills. I specifically referred to the "Heartland-sponsored manufactured controversy that the Koch-funded, conservative noise machine engages in on a daily basis" as the warriors for ignorance who are the equivalent of intellectual terrorists, not any specific editors. I also referred to the AfD discussion as an example of the manufactured controversy espoused by these external groups, so I understand your confusion. "Intellectual terrorism" is the bread and butter of the conservative noise machine, and it forms the basis of the attack on Tyson, and the spread of its tentacled memetic virus on Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 03:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

You said "the discussion up above and it's associated attack on Tyson are a great example of yet-another Heartland-sponsored manufactured controversy that the Koch-funded, conservative noise machine engages in on a daily basis. These warriors..." Which to me reads as talking about "the discussion up above" as being a "great example". It is true that you did not refer to any specific editor, and if the administrators decide the policy doesn't apply unless specific people are named I will leave it at that. Similarly if they read your piece as referring to something other then "discussion up above" then maybe I just misread it. I posted here to notify the administrators of what I saw as a problem, I will leave it in their hands to decide if it is a problem or not. Obsidi (talk) 03:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I noticed your report did not include the many uncivil comments of others on that page, including rampant accusations of censorship, partisanship, and someone outright calling someone else a moron. Why did you choose to single out a comment that wasn't even directed at other editors? Gamaliel (talk) 03:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I felt that it was directed at other editors. There are lots of uncivil comments around and most of the time I will just do as WP:PA says "Often the best way to respond to an isolated personal attack is to simply ignore it. Sometimes personal attacks are not meant as attacks at all, and during heated and stressful debates editors tend to overreact." I felt that if an editor was referring to other editors as indistinguishable from al-Qaeda, that warranted a more significant action then other merely uncivil comments.Obsidi (talk) 03:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

possible vandalizing of page and lack of willing to compromise

I'm having a issue with certain users of wikipedia and would like from some admin to take a look. During our conversation on Talk page, two users simply ignored our dispute and were reverting changes. This page has WP:1RR protection and I don't want to vandalize it.

• Nishidani (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) not his first ban
• Kingsindian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has "Discretionary sanctions"

diffs:

• deleting disputed text
• first revert without question asked
• my compromise with better text
• pushing they agenda without compromise
• me reverting and asking to open talk page
• during talks the page was edited to push they agenda

The best summary of this dispute is in Talk page, look at my msg @ "08:33, 29 September 2014". --CONFIQ (talk) 09:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

@CONFIQ: this is a content dispute, not an issue with ANI. May I suggest WP:DRN instead? --Mdann52talk to me! 10:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

DRN volunteer here. While this content dispute would certainly be welcome at DRN, I prefer referring people to WP:DRR to give them a chance to decide what venue is appropriate rather than assuming that WP:DRN is right for them. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• @CONFIQ: Editing WP:ARBPIA topics is not a good idea for someone who made your comments at the Talk page link you gave. Your first comment appears to suggest that a reliable source should be ignored because your analysis shows that the statement in the source must be wrong. There are two problems with that: we do not do original research, and a quick look appears to show your analysis is faulty. Another problem is that your English is not good. Are you following the detailed responses that were given? The main issue, however, is that article talk pages are not to be used to attack other editors—do you notice how the two editors you're talking to are each focusing on the issue, and are clearly addressing the text in the article? Finally, please review WP:VAND which makes it clear that you must not refer to good-faith edits as "vandalism". Actually, the final point is that the two editors named are supposed to be notified (did you see the notice when you posted here?). Johnuniq (talk) 11:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
  • @Johnuniq: It's interesting that I'm the one that attack him :). No, I'm not attacking guy. It felt unfair that while we were talking on Talk page he reverted my changes to his opinion without even telling me. Should I revert it back without consulting Talk page? In order to prevent this loop I decided to stop and report it. The only attack made by me could be because he is not ready to compromise and using words "idiots" and "fucked". That is very mature... --CONFIQ (talk) 15:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• @CONFIQ: whilst Mdann52 is quite right that the issues you have brought here are not for ANI, your conduct on the Six-Day war talk page could well be. Nishidani, correctly as far as I can see, summarises your problematic behaviour in his latest post. I've cut and pasted the relevant bit:

• "Saying 'my friend' imputees WP:TAGTEAMING, which is a reportable offence, is a personal attack.
• 'According to your history it seems that all edits you have is against Israel and Jews', is a personal attack, apart from being a thorough misrepresentation of my editing record.
• imputing to editors who have challenged your removal of material successive acts of 'vandalization' is again, a personal attack, and to caricature as 'vandalistic' edits you disagree with is looked on dourly at A/I and AE
• saying neither I nor Kingsindian 'think rationally' is again, an egregiously attack personalizing a mere difference in judgement."

DeCausa (talk) 11:39, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Though I personally think the WP:NPA should be blockable offense apparently WP:AE admins think otherwise and don't consider edits that call another editor an idiot as personal attack I don't really see any difference here.--Shrike (talk) 12:11, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's amounting to blocks for anyone - just making the point that if anyone's to change their ways, it's the OP. DeCausa (talk) 12:57, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Shrike's diff does not cite a NPA violation on my part, and was unactionable. I haven't the foggiest notion who plastered that dubious tag on a source which stated, famously, exactly what the text it supported said. 'Some idiot' may not be best practice, but false tag smearing of an eminent RS is 'idiotic'. And Shrike, after your recent attempt to get me banned, I'd appreciate you restraint in not participating in this kind of nonsense when it affects me. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 13:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I understand that admins consider such rhetoric acceptable I only brought this to give a perspective as Confiq was accused violation of WP:NPA.--Shrike (talk) 16:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Also, you haven't notified Nishidani and Kinsindian that you've opened this thread, which is what you're required to do. I've notified them for you. DeCausa (talk) 12:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Since it is obvious that nothing is actionable here, I will not make any statement. I would advise someone to close this, so that there is no drama, and no boomerang. Kingsindian ♝♚ 14:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks by Beanyfunk77

User:Beanyfunk77 has made a long series of additions (95 edits so far) to List of syphilis cases over the last three days. The majority of these edits have been undone, in eleven edits by five different editors (User:Noyster, User:Mean as custard, User:Denisarona, User:VeryCrocker, and User:Meters), as unsourced, vandalism, BLP, and/or apparently false. See history [460]. Beanyfunk77 has responded with increasingly irate personal attacks on List of syphilis cases and User talk:Beanyfunk77.

In chronological order:

• Edit summary "fuck you" [461]
• edit summary "you have syph" [462]
• edit summary "you're a motherfucing coksucker with syph up your asshole" with edit content "LIAR" [463]
• edit content "your girlfriend" [464]
• editor's talk content "you really are stupid. possibly the worst researcher in history" [465]
• editor's talk summary "fool" [466]
• editor's talk summary "blind fool" [467]

• imm warn for personal attacks [468]

• editor's talk content "you are deranged with syph" [469]
• editor's talk content "fascistic little pansy" [470]

• request to remove attacks from his talk page [471]

• editor's talk content "you whiny little pipsquak" [472]
• editor's talk content "you're a PATHETIC, BUREAUCRATIC piece of slime. You can remove your withered ballsack with a rusty shears, or you can eat my shit. Your name will be on the syph list one day, with a †." [473]
• editor's talk content "you must be insane (harboring any spirochetes? get a penicillin shot, whyn'cha?)." [474]

Note that while some of the article edits may be valid, but unsourced, there were certainly some content edits and/or summaries that were vandalism. I'm not listing them because I think the personal attacks are a much more serious issue. Similarly, I'm not raising the issue of the continued addition of unsourced information after being undone several times, and Beanyfunk77 has sourced his or her latest additions. Meters (talk) 17:43, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

"edit summary "you're a motherfucing coksucker with syph up your asshole" with edit content "LIAR"" - If this guy isn't made into an admin by the end of the day, I'll kill myself. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I would contest that appointment based on the inability to properly spell "cocksucker" or "pipsqueak". Seriously, civility may have been slipping lately, but this seems a bit much. Meters (talk) 18:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

They do not currently have an RfA open, but I have watchlisted their first RfA page anyway, just in case. In addition, some of these comments could be construed as medical diagnoses, so I have given them a warning about not providing medical advice through Wikipedia, per policy. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:15, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Lugnuts, I do not have the "make admin" button in my arsenal, so I did the next best thing, an indefinite block, per "personal attacks, vandalism, disruption, edit warring, NOTHERE". Frankly, their edits boggle the mind. But perhaps my mind is also affected by syph. Drmies (talk) 18:18, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Christian Serratos

There's an IP jumping user(s) who keeps undoing/removing information from it and doesn't seem to be wanting to discuss the problem (User:Greg Fasolino tried).

• Article: Christian Serratos (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• IP user: 166.170.5.19 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 166.170.5.115 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), 166.170.5.18 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 166.170.5.93 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Thanks. ☴ Jaewon [Talk] 18:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• I've semi-protected the article for BLP reasons: the IP's edits are not OK. Drmies (talk) 18:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Loganmac

Loganmac (talk · contribs) is one of several accounts of a decent age who has since become solely a single purpose account to attempt to skew the Gamergate controversy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article into one in the favor of the "gamergate" crowd. In his most recent actions, he has decided to screencap a thread on the article's talk page and then post about it to his Twitter and on Reddit in an attempt to discredit the thread's author and Wikipedia's ability to cover the subject of the article. Bosstopher, the author of the thread, requested that Loganmac post corrections regarding his opinion which Loganmac has misinterpreted and Loganmac has refused basically citing first amendment rights. It is clear that Loganmac is no longer here to write an encyclopedia but further an off-site conflict, as the last substantial edit he made that was unrelated to this dispute was in 2011. If anyone is to be able to write a neutrally written article on this subject, it has to be without these wannabe Upton Sinclairs in the mix souring the collegiate atmosphere.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• "We cannot punish editors for off-wiki activities" is something I hear fairly regularly. Be that as it may, having this user, essentially an SPA, participate in the GamerGate matter is of no use, and I agree: NOTHERE. Drmies (talk) 18:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
  • On a side note does this mean there's no rule against me going onto the reddit thread/twitter and explaining how I'm being misrepresented? Bosstopher (talk) 18:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Correct. It's probably not a good idea, but there's no rule against it. 199.47.73.100 (talk) 18:41, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
      • Why would it be a bad idea? Bosstopher (talk) 18:48, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
        • Well now Ryulong has told me "learn to fucking read" on twitter https://twitter.com/Ryulong/status/516651395512950785. It's twitter, he can tell me whatever he wants, I really don't care. The screencap was my own free opinion on an unrelated site. I really don't get why he got so angry about me tweeting that. And I'm not a single purpose account, I'm most active in the Spanish wikipedia, and I had another account in the 3 years "abscence" on the English wiki of which I've forgotten my password, since this account is linked to my email I looked up the password in my email. Remember that we're not accountable to what we do outside Wikipedia, just as noone was held accountable for doxxing Titanium Dragon and a trans minor editor on Wikipediocracy. Also Ryulong should know I didn't cite "first amendment rights", since I'm not from the US, which for some reason he thought I was by default Loganmac (talk) 19:00, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Whilst he could have phrased it more politely, Ryulong is indeed correct about your inability to parse a section of text. No-one there is trying to "get rid" of Kain as a source, they're saying he's over-represented in the article, which given the number of times he's referenced is a pretty reasonable point. Black Kite (talk) 19:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Well clearly you couldn't read what Bosstopher had to say, Loganmac. And this is the second time I've heard someone say "I have an account on another project where I'm more active" in this debate. What account do you use there because I'm sure you can be allowed to rename your local account to match that one so they're linked. And this is entirely unrelated to whatever the fuck Titanium Dragon did. Your presence on this website is now disruptive, now that you've decided to take your concerns of it to other websites rather than attempting to discuss it here.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

So what you're essentially saying here is "I don't like this guy's constant reiteration of his opinion, so I'll just shut him up 'cuz he hurt muh feels off wiki". M'kay. Censorship in a nutshell. 72.78.145.144 (talk) 18:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

This isn't Reddit so don't throw your comments in ahead of other people's. And no. Loganmac has been disrupting the project by bringing an off-site conflict onto the site and is harassing people by doing things offsite. This isn't censorship either. This is banning someone for being a drain on the community's resources because they are solely here to stir up shit, which is the exact same reason bans of this nature are being meted out at 4chan, Reddit, and other areas. This isn't a first amendment right. The world at large has the privilege of being allowed to edit Wikipedia and in this case, Loganmac has abused that privilege by harassing people through off-site channels.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

How have I've been disrupting it? When the article wasn't blocked I didn't erase all mentions of misogyny and harassment since you're right the press has made it the focal point. I tried helping reword the leading when the article was just getting started. Also, again with the first amendment, I'm not from the US, I don't have any idea what it covers nor do I care. And I didn't harass anyone. I presented a screencap and that's it, why do you put forward that reddit link? How do you know it's me? That for me seems more like your definition of harassment Loganmac (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

You didn't have to present the screencap in the first place in the places where there's guaranteed replies. And because the Reddit link contains the same screencap from the Twitter account and it was posted by a "Logan Mac".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Why shouldn't I, I'm not allowed to critisize Wikipedia outside wikipedia? Also I wonder how did you come to find that reddit post, did you google my username?Loganmac (talk) 19:36, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I found your reddit post and twitter post, because I am an avid reader of both the #GamerGate hashtag and [to a lesser extent] KotakuinAction. My grievance is not that you are criticizing Wikipedia outside Wikipedia, it is that your posts are lies, you know your posts are lies, but you still wont apologize or issue an amendment. As it stands I'm not sure this warrants a ban, but you've made a factual error and need to correct it. Don't be such a fuddy duddy. Bosstopher (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Ryulong, you should not stoop to the level of Logan and pursue disputes outside of Wikipedia. KonveyorBelt 19:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

  But is pursuing a Wikipedia dispute off of Wikipedia making 3 left turns to turn right?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:23, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

altering another user's comments

what is the policy, when another user is altering your comments on their talk page? Lx 121 (talk) 18:52, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• They shouldn't be doing that, especially if it alters the meaning (bar certain instances such as redacting personal attacks or BLP violations). They should either leave them alone or remove them completely. Black Kite (talk) 19:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

They pretty much have control of their own talk page - if their edits alter what you stated, then it might be an AN/I matter. If their alterations make your post appear to violate policies, then such changes are very serious and may result in sanctions against the person altering your words. Otherwise, pretty much ignore them. Collect (talk) 19:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• This was your ORIGINAL comment. You then decided to add to it. They reverted it to your original version. You're the one changing the meaning of your original comment, and they want nothing to do with it - leave it as it is the panda ₯’ 19:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

NO; i added new material, clearly indicated; i used a strikethru to correct an error in my statement, &i removed the word "hapless" from one sentence, after realizing that this was the same user...

is it your position that a user is not allowed to add additional material to a talkpage section, after posting their original comment? or to make correction to it, MINUTES after posting it? would you rather i not remove the term "hapless"? or should i use a strikethru on it?

as for "not wanting to be involved"; the user jumped into an edit dispute (for the second time), on an article they have no interest in working on; they made an innacurate edit summary rationale, & haven't bothered to comment on the article talk page. except for one comment after their first "intervention" months ago, which they never followed up on. it is my understanding that under these circumstances, posting to a user's talkpage is a "normal" action. Lx 121 (talk) 19:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• DP, except the fact that DD2K didn't respond to the original edit, and we have a tendency to treat consecutive edits as a single edit.

That being said, there is a slow revert war over an image at Edward Furlong (which is what OP's modification to the comment was about), and the talk page discussion related to it is lacking from the side that supports the removal. (Indeed, DD2K has not even commented on the most recent thread to Talk:Edward Furlong, and is directing all traffic there.) - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 19:17, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

in that case, here: [475]

it's easier sending you the page history, rather than a string of diffs.

you guys can sort out whether there is any violation or not, & what do to about it, ifso. my response is as stated in my final edit to that user's talkpage; given the user's actions, i will no longer attempt to contact them via their talkpage, under any circumstances.

any cites of comments made there should be checked against history & diffs.

Lx 121 (talk) 19:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

DD2K is in the right here. In general, he can control his talk page to suit himself, and he has at least twice told you (via edit summaries) to keep the discussion on the subject talk page rather than going to his own talk page. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:44, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• Bugs, but wouldn't you go to an editor's talk page if they don't comment on the article talk page? Rv -- Enough - Keep it on the Talk page, there is no WP:CONSENSUS to add the image, if better arguments to include it are presented, I'll comment then. Right now, it stays out. is not a good argument. DD2K, in a way, is reverting without discussing in the proper venue. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 20:02, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

And speaking of right or wrong, where did you notify DD2K about this ANI discussion? I don't see it, but my vision is not very good, so I may have missed it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:49, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• I think OP gave up trying to communicate with DD2K (although I think ANI notification is required, even if normally other restrictions prevents the editor from doing so?). - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 20:02, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• How absolutely absurd. First of all, as DP stated, I left your original comment. And I only left that as a courtesy. I've told you before not to post your rants on my Talk page, after you ranted there last time about this same issue. As for your next edits, they were more ranting and 30 minutes after the first. I told you last time I saw your last ANI thread concerning Furlong and disagreed with you. Also, nobody even informed me of this thread here. If someone thinks I didn't wait long enough for this user to complete their 30+ minute thought, then block me. This whole thing is idiotic and laughable. Psshh. Dave Dial (talk) 19:51, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

AS I STATED IN MY LAST POST TO YOUR TALK PAGE, which you, of course REVERTED, i shall no longer be posting ANYTHING to your talkpage, under ANY circumstances, due to your demonstrated lack of good faith, in removing/altering my comments there Lx 121 (talk) 19:55, 29 September 2014 (UTC).

& note that your only response to my talkpage comment, has been to revert me 3x. Lx 121 (talk) 20:11, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

ALSO NOTE: i did not start this as a "named" discussion; i started off asking a general question about policy (re: altering other user's comments on a talk page); it was other commentors who introduced the actual incident into the conversation. Lx 121 (talk) 20:11, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

You're lucky DD2K didn't drag you here for edit-warring on his talk page. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:58, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

indeed? on what basis? the 3-r rule? oh wait, he's the one who has done 3 reverts... Lx 121 (talk) 20:11, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• No, because DD2K is selectively modifying OP's comments (see my argument below). - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 20:02, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• @DD2K: In a way, you're selectively deleting his comments: Part of the second edit was clearly modifying the original comment. (The only part that wasn't was the 3:3 part.) - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 20:02, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh for fucks sake, bullshit. If that is what you get out of this users continued obsession with this issue, then do whatever you want to do. Dave Dial (talk) 20:07, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

While we give a wide range of discretion regarding ones own userpage I don't think changing another person's comment is acceptable anywhere. A person should be able to remove another persons comment if they do so in a manner that does no change the meaning of the discussion. Chillum 20:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)